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    Is User:Stevertigo a disruptive editor??

    The following stems from this edit by User:Stevertigo, an issue which arrived here very recently. The fact that "the Holocaust" is sometimes used to refer to the destruction of more than the Jews of during World War 2, is not under dispute. However, as can be seen on the talk page, myself and a couple of others have outlined to Steve several times - while pointing to a preponderance of reliable sources, that regardless of how "The Holocaust" is defined, "Holocaust denial", refers (with the exception of a few passing references regarding the implicit denial of Roma peoples, as one user brought forward) virtually exclusively to the denial of the destruction of the Jews during WW2.

    Steve has responded with an eye-watering amount of wikilawyering, the most I have ever seen in my Misplaced Pages tenure. Some comments directed at Steve have undoubtedly been less than diplomatic, but this, and then amending it with this, frankly, is absolutely repellent behaviour in my opinion. I believed that I have exercised considerable discretion in this matter, such as by inviting Steve to suggest how he would amend the article, which he has responded to. However, it has occured to more than just me that Steve's desired prose not only misses the relevant points, but tacitly suggests that Steve is making his own extrapolations, then trying to find sources to support them. Well, not remotely tacit at all, in fact.

    Judging from Steve's other edits (and pages in his userspace) such as this tremendously protracted redirect he established, not to mention this very recently written item or this BLP minefield, or what can only be described as a contemptuous attitude to other people's comments, I do not think it is unreasonable to infer that the interests Steve is interested in furthering are not Wikipedias. WilliamH (talk) 00:57, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

    I agree with you on a good many points, but what exactly are you suggesting we do here? lifebaka++ 01:20, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
    I would suggest a block, indefinitely if necessary. It is abundantly clear that he is much more interested in tendentiously furthering his own interests, as opposed to Misplaced Pages's. I need hardly point that that is detrimental to the project, and I see no reason why so much volunteer time should be used to appease it. WilliamH (talk) 01:39, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
    I don't think a community ban discussion would get us anywhere, nor would it be all that constructive. We haven't eliminated other options yet, so I suggest we use them. How about an WP:RFC/U? lifebaka++ 14:32, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
    I've looked over the discussion, and it seems that Steve is now trying to talk in a more civilized manner, accepting what people have to say. I don't pretend to understand the large amounts of philosophical debate flying back and forth on that talk page, but it looks to me that he's calmed down considerably and stopped making threats and stupid comments. A little insignificant (talk) 01:43, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
    Completely disinterested observer checking in. Looking over the discussion on the article talk page, it appears to be a discussion, and not at all heated to the extent that is seemingly being portrayed. The ripostes are rather courtly and just because there is a dispute does not necessitate a call for admin action. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 02:16, 14 September 2009 (UTC).
    Sorry, but I must ask if any of you actually viewed any of the pages I brought forward. How on earth is for example, aiming to hose away reliably sourced material with one's own extrapolations acceptable? WilliamH (talk) 02:43, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
    It's not a matter for AN/I, which deals w/ incipient problems that require admins to solve. Protonk (talk) 06:00, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
    If there are disputes about the reliability of sources, try the Reliable Sources noticeboard. And throwing words like "Holocaust denier" around with hopes they will stick to an editor, is not going to further constructive debate. If they do not stick, they tend to boomerang. Next?--Wehwalt (talk) 09:45, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
    How can one not use the term "holocaust denier" when dealing with the article holocaust denial? --jpgordon 14:31, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

    I've had a good night and have not yet gotten any sleep, so I will keep this short.

    You paint a very good one-sided story William. I do mean that. Note of course that neutral observers appear to disagree with your one-sided portrayal and aren't hesitant to say so quite straightly. Your comment above (to those who took the time to review your concerns), "Sorry, but I must ask if any of you actually viewed any of the pages I brought forward" should be understood as evidence of the weakness of your claims. Their comments above explicitly testify of their literacy in this matter. You have no evidence to show otherwise, and you have no cause to insinuate their negligence in that aspect.

    WilliamH wrote: "How on earth is for example, aiming to hose away reliably sourced material with one's own extrapolations acceptable?" - Your linkage to my subspace (which I on rare occasion use in certain mundane ways) pointed to a draft for an unrelated topic. How do you conjecture a connection between this topic and that one? If you are building an overall case against me, please do so: Elicit help from others and put together some kind of comprehensive report on my behaviour. Not only would I welcome one, I would take the opportunity to demonstrate every weakness in your claims, arguments, and conceptions, and will do so with gusto and sarcasm in full measure to even the slightest vexatiousness shown to me. Your title for this thread already strikes me as a bit vexatious.

    I'm going to bed. -Stevertigo 12:30, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

    I think we can safely assume the thread title was meant to be benign. Cheers. lifebaka++ 14:32, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
    I always AGF, but I would still prefer that the thread title be changed such that not even the slightest degree of slander remain. -Stevertigo 21:39, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
    I have made the title more clear in that it is about the article and you, rather than somehow implying that you might ascribe to the theory. I assume this is better. lifebaka++ 04:22, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
    I'd just like to point out that the thread title is completely benign, and all suggestions otherwise are tremendous assumptions of bad faith. WilliamH (talk) 11:22, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
    This thread is rife with assertions of bad faith. I don't believe they all need pointing out. lifebaka++ 19:05, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

    A few people have checked the discussion page and note that the discussion seems less heated. Indeed. But this is beside the point. The question - and really, the only question for AN/I (as Protonk points out, this page is dedicated to specific kinds of problems) - is: is User:Stevertigo a disruptive editor? The thing about disruptive editors is, you cannot make a judgement based on just one glance. By definition, disruptive editing manifests itself through a pattern of edits across time or across several articles. That is why WilliamH provided a number of edit diffs. To those who say things have quieted down, I would point out this: Stevertigo has dominated discussion on the Holodcaust Denial talk page for quite some time, occupying quite a bit of space, and all this discussion has lead to not one single improvement of the article. Moreover, it seems to me that the rest of the participants in the discussion do not see any point to this lengthy discussion, do not feel that it is leading to any improvement of the article. This is an abuse of the talk page, which is meant to discuss improvements, and a perfect example of "disruptive" editing since Stevertigo's repeated comments, which never engage what other editors actually point out, is simply displacing any constructive discussion. Stevertigo's MO is to make things up, call it a "concept," and then refuse to provide any verifiable sources. He is a disruptive editor at best - the worse possibility is that he is here to push his own personal point of view with total disregard to our NOR policy. Here is another example . Slrubenstein | Talk 15:49, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

    That this was recently archived yet is on this very same, not yet resolved issue, is an indication of the level of disruption. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:30, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

    I'm not convinced Steve is completely gone, yet. As I've seen, he is improving little by little, as we make it apparent that pieces of what he's doing aren't acceptable. I don't know that we can change him completely, but neither do I know that we cannot. Steve is capable of taking the hint from this thread, I know, and is capable of changing his behavior. For the moment, it would be best if we issued a warning about some specific behaviors (such as starting talk page discussions whose purpose is not the improvement of the article) and see if he does in fact stop. Cheers. lifebaka++ 19:05, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
    Indeed, I am not "gone yet," Lifebaka - I was editing here five years before you showed up. I've yet to see anything more than a few insinuations and complaints, so I don't quite understand how anyone would think I would just go away and leave things in a depressed state. I likewise don't understand how some people can go though life thinking everyone else is just stupid, but that's a little off topic. Anyway, I've written down a few thoughts regarding this thread and others, and put them in my log. It's a bit fluid and maybe wanders a bit, but the gist is fairly straightforward.
    By the way, I appreciate the title change. Now any slander therein is nearly unperceptible, and nowhere near as obvious. -Stevertigo 00:19, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
    Lifebaka didn't mean "gone" as in "retired" - s/he means that you aren't beyond hope, and that you've been learning and improving by mistakes. Sorry, that was a confusing sentence, could have raised all kinds of hell. A little insignificant (please!) 00:25, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
    My experience with Stevertigo has, unfortunately, been pretty unchanged over a number of years. He generally shows up at an article and decides to put his own unique and idiosyncratic spin on whatever is there, either by modifying text to suit his own opinions, or by adding his own mini-essays. Though he has been editing for many years, as far as I can tell the WP:V and WP:NOR policies have made little, if any, impression on him.
    Here is a perfect recent example of this; he showed up at the Reducto ad Hitlerum article, and decided to insert his own confusing digression on whether or not the National Socialist party were really Socialists. Aside from its tangential nature, note that (as is typical) the essay has not one source in it. As is also typically the case, on any article he is editing that is actually being watched by other editors, his insertions are deleted. As is also typically the case, he edit wars to keep them in. When defeated, he drops it on the Talk: page, without any accompanying commentary.
    Thus he showed up at the Holocaust denial article, with his own personal opinions of what the article should discuss - as it turned out, mainly a digression into which groups are covered by the phrase "The Holocaust" - something that is actually discussed in Misplaced Pages's article on the Holocaust. After days of circular discussion, including several suggestions by him that we should all be working together on a Holocaust comprehension article, he then proposed completely re-writing the lede, focusing in particular on his original point, and making his proposal without actually basing it on any discernible sources. Long exposure has taught me that every talk page discussion with him eventually comes to the question "Stevertigo, upon what sources do you base your opinions"? Constantly hammering on that statement usually makes him go away; unfortunately, in this case, many editors were unfamiliar with him, and gave him various openings to continue his digressions on his own unusual ideas. He has posted several thousand words on the Holocaust denial Talk: page without, as far as I can tell, bringing even one source that actually discusses Holocaust denial. At the least, this is extremely disruptive. Jayjg 01:16, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
    Just out of curiosity, was there any attempt, on your part or anyone elses, to ascertain what was missing in the reductio ad Nazium article? Indeed, as the term is said to not just refer to the Hitler fallacy, but to the Nazi one as well, I.. conceptualized.. a need for a treatment of the Socialism fallacy, and thought that article was the proper place, given the apparent ambiguity in the ad Nazium term.
    So, I take it there was no effort on your part to ascertain what was missing in that article. Hm? Fine. But in the additions of others, do you at least attempt to ascertain whether or not the addition is actually true? Encyclopedic? Factual? Well-written? On-point? Relevant? Material? Substantive? Accurate? An improvement?
    It strikes me at the very best "counterproductive" that you and others interpret RS in accord with only inane and destructive modalities that at best resemble deletionism. Keep in mind the context, these are articles in which you yourself neglect to detect any omission, and yet you claim to assert some kind of considered editorial judgment in simply deleting additions to them?
    "Disruptive editing," indeed. -Stevertigo 02:37, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
    Steve, the way article writing is supposed to work is this: First, you find sources. Then, you write based on the sources. Then, you cite the sources you used. The issue appears to be that you are not beginning by finding sources, but instead writing and then attempting to cherry-pick sources which will support your text. Regardless of why you choose to operate this way, it gives the appearance that you are pushing a view. Please find sources as a first step.
    Additionally, regarding the removal of unsourced content, WP:V stipulates that any unsourced contentious material should be removed. You shouldn't be too terribly surprised if, when you add material to a page without sources, it gets removed.
    The new title you chose is... Odd. The first title was far more neutral. Cheers. lifebaka++ 03:02, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
    User:Stevertigo has been around a long time and made many contributions. He isn't some troll who suddenly appeared. So whence this talk of banning him? Can't we tolerate people with unpopular perspectives? Do we all have to be mainstream here? If so, then who should we start kicking out: the gays? the libertarians? the Christians? Please let me know, so I can align myself with the Grand Inquisitor, and feel like a good person.--Anthon.Eff (talk) 03:29, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
    Very interesting perspective, Anthon. Keep in mind also the issue is not about "mainstream," its about this obtuse methodology of cobbling articles together from "reliable sources" such that they don't always make actual sense. In some cases it's quite deliberately so. So some people of course are worried that any future requirement of "making sense" will inevitably cause localized and other special-point-of-view concepts to implode. In fact its just a matter of time.
    Just to forewarn you, when someone informs The Grand Inquisitor that you were just being sarcastic, he'll probably issue a standard proclamation and declare you "thou troubler of Misplaced Pages" as well. -Stevertigo 05:51, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
    Uh, Anthon, to be clear, Stevertigo is a troll who has been around over five years. The first encounter with him I recall (I could well be blocking out others) was when he showed up at "anti-Semitism" and argued that since Arabs are semites, anti-Semitism includes hatred of Arabs. This is the paradigm for how he operates and it has two major components. First, he claims he is using a conceptual method, but what he is really doing is taking actual concepts and breaking them down to parts that are actually not relevant to the concept. In the case of the name Ehud, he went so far as to do this with letters of the alphabet. It is true that Arabic is a semetic language. But "anti-Semitism" was explicitly coined to refer exclusively to hatred of Jews. Anyone who has done what jayjg and others call source-based research ... what I just call "research" ... would know this. As i pointed out on the Holocaust denial page, If Stevertigo really followed his method consistenly, he would be quite surprised to discover what the word "blowjob" really means. If Sgtevertigo really were commited to his "conceptual" approach, he would go the the article on blowjobs, and explain that since blow means a forceful expulsion of air, and a job is form of work, we need a section on people who blow out air for a living. This would be a violation of WP:NOR were it not just so ridiculous on its face. Anyway, the point is that he has done no research, he has no sources to support his claims, in the end it is simply what Stevertigo thinks a word or phrase should mean that he wants to go into the article. This of course never stands up to scrutiny, but Stevertio argues the point for days, weeks, and this is what makes him a disruptive editor. Second major element: Stevertigo has a clear preference for screwing with articles that have to do with Jews or topics sensitive to Jews. Although by his method we would have a long debate at the page on blowjobs, or "logrolling" or "parkway" or "driveway," Stevertigo prefers "Anti-Semitism," "Yeshu" "Ehud" and "Holocaust Denial." What do these things have in common? They are all issues sensitive to Jews, and Stevertigo has never done an iota of research concerning them. His is a simple, close to banal form of anti-Semitism. He has never directly insulted any Jews at ikipedia. But if left to his own devices, slowly, every article here relating to matters of Jewish interest or concern would be corrupted into meaningless garbage. I do not know if this is because this is his actual objective, or because he knows that it will draw some of the Jewish editors at Misplaced Pages, and force them to waste their time on the talk pages explaining over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again why he is wrong.
    Please note my excessive use of "over and over and over." It is not a personal attack as such. It did not violate any content policy. But can anyone deny that its only effect is to irritate? This is Stevertigo in essense. It is why he is a disruptive editor. That he has gotten away with it for five years is no defense. In no other kind of violation, would we say that "well, he has been violating NPOV for five years so it must be okay." The only time editors say "Well he has been doing it for five years so stop complaining" is in the case of disruptive editors. That is because disruptive editors, by constantly shifting their targets, and by merely disrupting, rather than attacking, are generaly detected only by a small group of editors who for one reason or another (in this case, Jews or non-Jews who care about Jewish related articles) keep encountering this editor. But we have a policy, WP:DE that describes Stevertigo's MO almost to a tee! Folks, this is precisely why we have a DE policy. Generous editors here will say "let's give him anothe chance." That is because they weren't around for the over a month long "anti-semitism" saga (in which, after Stevertigo started introducing neologisms to support his argument, and created articles for his own neologisms, and was told, No, Steve, you can't create your own word and then create a Wikipdia article about your word, that is a neologism, and then we had to explain to him what the word "neologism" meant, then he went and created an article on neologisms! I kid you not! It is amost funny). But if we let him go this time, in a few nonths he will settle on some other article - maybe he will come up with his own theory about the etymology for Yom Kippur. Now, how many of you have this article on your watchlist? How many of you will notice it? Probably me and just a few others. And we will bring it up at AN/I and a different group of admins will read over the account of the conflict and say "Well, this seems mild, let's give him another chance." Folks, we have a policy against disruptive editors. Let's use it here. Slrubenstein | Talk 09:17, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
    One could take all of that, substitute "Obama" and "liberals" in place of "Jews" and "antisemitism", and we would have an accurate description of Stevertigo's antics that led to Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Obama articles as well. Sooner or later the ones with the proverbial mops around here have eat the spinach and say "that's all I can stands and I can't stands no more!" Tarc (talk) 13:16, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
    Slrubenstein, most likely you'd get someone to act if you put some examples around, other than just the Ehud one. For instance, can you link me the threads from Anti-Semitism that you're talking about? Cheers. lifebaka++ 14:27, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
    • I recently attempted to warn Stevertigo on Talk:Holocaust denial that his repetitive arguing was becoming disruptive; he responded by misconstruing what I'd written, wikilawyering over policy, trying to score points, and making some rather odd allusions that I might be in off-wiki contact with other editors there to silence him (, , ). I don't intend to second-guess why he does this, but regardless of the reasons the resulting disruption, bad feeling, and general unpleasantness caused by his actions are what matter. I would support removing his editing privileges; although a topic ban would be my first choice, I think his interests are wide-ranging enough that this would be ineffective. Note that because I consider myself marginally involved on Holocaust denial, I don't feel comfortable blocking Stevertigo myself. EyeSerene 14:52, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
    • I deplore this dogpile.

      The consensus is against Stevertigo in a number of areas, and he has some controversial views. He also occasionally takes an unfortunate tone with people. But this AN/I thread is totally unwarranted.—S Marshall /Cont 16:54, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

    Can you provide an example of a "controversial view" he has? The problem I have, and have raised, is not that he has controversial views, but that he is always promoting his own views. Misplaced Pages allows controversial views, as long as they are significant and come from notable sources. Not our own ideas, right? Slrubenstein | Talk 20:34, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

    While I greatly appreciate the "dogpile" conceptualization, S Marshall, I have to disagree about it being "unwarranted," when in fact it's ridiculous. Particularly so when they don't bother to treat my arguments seriously to begin with, and then, instead of dealing with the concepts, they accuse me of "wikilawyering," which is precisely what this report itself actually is.

    Note how easy it was to deal with William, who filed this report?

    Slrubenstein wrote: "It is true that Arabic is a semetic language." - Actually, that's not accurate.

    -Stevertigo (wlog | talk | edits) 20:32, 16 September 2009 (UTC) PS: Wrote some responses. May submit later.

    Lifebaka asks for some more links. Here are two:. I must point out that archives from back then are sketchy - some articles were deleted, and then recreated when people had more research; we didn't have the same procedures for keeping records or archives of everything. In archive 4 of the anti-Semitism talk, Stevertigo makes his argument that Misplaced Pages isn't a dictionary so the article cannot be just a definition of "anti-Semitism." Fair enough. On this I agree fully. Here is where we differ: i think that instead of just defining the term, we need to see what sources exist concerning its history and the sociology of anti-Semitism, or whatever other research there has been, if any. Steve's approach is to apply his own brand oflogic, and this is used to make his own points (note: what is wrong is not that they are controvesial, but that they are his i.e. an editor's). In archive 4 he claims that anti-semitism has two meanings: first, it means hatred of Jews. Second, it is a term used to attack people who disagree with Jews. Uh, well, you can see how Jews might take exception to this second meaning of "anti-Semitism." Now, there may well be people who are anti-Zionists yet who are accused of anti-Semitism - this in fact is now the subject of a couple of articles, all backed up by research. Again, my problem with Steve's argument is that he is relying on his own argument, not research. In archive 6 he refers to himself, ironically I am sure, as an "anti-Semite." I really do not believe that he thinks he is an anti-Semite or was confessing to be an anti-Semite, I am merely pointing out that six years ago he was aware that there were other editors who found his views anti-Semitic. In archive six there is another classic example of his using his own kind of logic, rather than research: anti means opposed to, so anti-Semitism must mean, opposed to Semites, including Arabs. I and RK and Danny argued strenuously that anti-Semitism means Jew-hatred. RK points out that the person who coined the term meand, "Jew hatred." And here is the crucial thing: Stevertigo says it does not matter what the inventor of the word meant, words have meanings determined by logic. As RK points out, the reason that the inventor of the term is important is because there is extensive published historical research on the historical meaning of the term. Steve's insistence on logic is an insistence on his own beliefs. I am sorry I could not provide edit difs but it is hard with my connection to go back six years to find edit difs, but these archives are pretty short - I believe they are incomplete - so just search a bit and you will find all the pertinant stuff. Note: there was a separate archive for anti-Semitism talk, I do not know if there was a separate article or just some talk was being archived back then under a different system. The point is, those archived talk pages are all blank and I cannot recover the content, so some talk is missing. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:59, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
    Lifebaka, here is another link, to an article written entirely by our boy, Stevertigo.. It is pure crap. Let me be clear: it is not his "controversial views." It is his bullshit. I really am waiting for an example of some meaningful contribution to Misplaced Pages. Anyway, his article on a neologism that he himself invented is a perfect example of what I have been saying about his MO, just making stuff up and calling it logic to justify why he didn't need to do any research. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:04, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

    (continued)

    Honestly, take a step back. You're accusing a long-term editor of anti-Semitic views and being involved in a plot to corrupt every Jewish-related article on Misplaced Pages. That I think is bullshit. The link you just provided was from 2003. A little insignificant (please!) 22:04, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
    I provided that link because another editor explicitly requested I provide the link ...I explained this. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:34, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
    The behavior in Archive 4 is similar, yes. I cannot find any place where Steve states/asserts/implies that antisemitism is hatred of Semites (including various Arab groups) in any of the archives, though this may merely be because the archives are incomplete (there are certainly responses to such a statement, but I'm unsure if they're putting words in his mouth, as it were). Cheers. lifebaka++ 16:03, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
    (To Slrubenstien above) Keep in mind that there are historical concepts of editorship and controversy involved. For example, you now say that "ant-Semitism" has a pejorative meaning, but at the time you rejected the notion altogether - not just that there were no sources. In fact the sources I provided, Chomsky, Finkelstein, etc., were met by you with extremely prejudicial rejection. Hence you've been working with a concept of authorship that defies higher conceptualization, frankly because you think it has no relation to your own. Note for example how you surreptitiously promoted Trinitiarianism as an absolute condition in the Christianity article lede, when in fact there is some variance. I discussed this a bit in my wlog.
    So, yeah, this has been going on for some time. The important thing though here is for you to build a case, and approach it rationally. This works in any context. For example you and William both above cite a number of diff-links, but you fail to put them into context, and thus fail to make an actual case.
    And what is the case you are trying to make here? That I be banned? That my arguments, regardless of substance, simply be ignored? That you can continue to simply reject anything I might have to say, even when I do provide sources? (Which I have done on a number of occasions). That you can continue to take my arguments out of context, or otherwise misrepresent them? Do explain.
    Likewise we will have to deal with some issues that transcend us both, even though Arbcom has some notable impotence in dealing with matters of its own fundamental legislation. One thing that has to go is this notion that RS's dominant modality be a deletionist one. I say so just in case collaboration still has anything to do with this project. Keep in mind that you appear to have no issue of collaborating when it comes to dealing with views which are in agreement with your own conceptualizations. Keep in mind also that because you reject collaboration with those you disagree on the fundamentals, you thus demonstrate a serious misunderstanding of what collaboration means, and what it can ultimately do. So I really do want you get your arguments in concise order first, and if that means filing some kind of formal case, I can then refute each.
    Getting you and Jayjg to do something other than whine about "reliable sources" all day long - particularly when I referred 38 times to just one - would be good for everyone. My sense of things is that if I can't get obstinate persons to deal with just one reliable source, there's no point in me trying to introduce a second. In fact our presence here means to some degree my success in making you deal with just that one source. The rest is just a logical argument that says that "car parts" has something to do with "cars" and to a lesser degree "parts." Your completely irrelevant counterargument, which says essentially that an article like "cheesing" need not at all mention any definition of "cheese", is interesting. -Stevertigo (wlog | talk | edits) 22:37, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
    Your post opens with a typical example of the source of my frustration. Nowehere have I said "anti-semitism" has a pejorative meaning My position has not changed since 2003: I believe that people can use the term incorrectly. My analogy would be to call an appale an orange - it is simply incorrect. But the word apple continues to refer to a certain kind of fruit. The term anti-Semite can be incorrectly applied to another person, but it is not pejorative, it is a term that refers to people who, among other things, say pejorative things. We went over this six years ago. I continue to see you violating NOR, se,dom using sources and when you do, using them inappropriately, often violating SYNTH, or taking them out of context, all in order to develop your own arguments about a topic, which violates NPOV. Do I want you banned? Well, yeah, until you show evidence of being able to work in a collaborative way with people. Ehud is a perfect examplke because so little seems to be at stake. You insisted it came from Yehudi and I insisted you provide reliable sources for that; instead you provided your own personal interpretation of Hebrew grammar. I said you were violating NOR (which you took to be pejorative). Another user provided the correct etymology and a source, and you had the gall to tell me that I should learn a lesson, and provide sources rather than just argue with people! When my "argument" with you was my insistence that you provide a source! If this is not trolling, what is? Slrubenstein | Talk 10:43, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
    Also, I never promoted trinitarianism. You are just making stuff up. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:46, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
    Disagreement with processes and policy is fair, but even if you are totally correct in your views of RS, V, etc, article space is not the correct place to implement them as folks just want to edit (and collaborate!) within the existing consensual processes and not entertain these "conceptualizations." You mention how long you've been editing here pretty frequently, so I guess you know better than us newbies how wikiprocesses were formed and what you can do to change them. Propose your changes inside the WP process space - a great place for conceptualizing with folks who focused are on that topic. RS's are required because V / NPOV are required. Deviating from current, consensual policy inside of article space is hugely time consuming and disruptive as evidenced by all of the text here and at Talk:Holocaust_denial. Until and unless policy changes, threads that propose material changes to content without reliable sourcing should just be summarily closed until sourcing is provided. Doing this actually supports the process of collaboration as finite resources don't need to be endlessly engaged with discusses content changes that fail (current) policy. cheers, --guyzero | talk 02:49, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
    I don't have to go very far in terms of the policy route than to cite WP:LEDE/WP:LEAD. The fact that much of the substance in that policy's own lede comes from my own conceptualizations about what an article lede needs to do, should not be an obstacle to your continued faith. In short, the substance behind WP:LEDE is higher, relevant conceptualization.
    Keep in mind, I did provide sources. They simply rejected their relevance. So the extrapolated principle in this case is simple: If a topic is a specialized one, we need to explain why it is so. Also, if the topic likewise uses more general terminology, in some specialized way, then we need to explain why. There is some historiology for the relevant terms, which is not too controversial. However if even simple, concise, and relevant explanations of these specialized ("denial") and subjective ("motive, scale, intent") historiologies are rejected without substantive argument, then this rejection is easily understood to be based not in policy or a reliable interpretation thereof.
    The common-sense explanation for this type of rejectionism is simply that these explanations give some sense that the specialized terminology is actually a specialized one. And thus they are not rejected because they do not fit policy, but because such explanations defy certain ethnic conceptualizations. This is basically what Slrubenstein was referring to when he said above that 'conceptualization destroys meaning' (paraphrasing). My translation-reparsing of this is something like 'such conceptual explanations can only contradict the ones written down in scrolls.' Now granted, these are "reliable scrolls" to be certain. Most of them anyway. But these have no meaning at all here if no efforts are made to unroll them, read them to people, and gain new understanding from their unconstrained resonance.
    I have always known how to express myself with "sensitiv," as Slrubenstein calls it. That I often do not is simply a requirement of the age, an instrument of the times, a necessity of the context, and due in no small measure to the lack of good faith that I have grown accustomed to dealing with. I am always pleased, however, to find I am not right in this regard. Regards, -Stevertigo (wlog | talk | edits) 03:54, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
    I don't see where you really responded to anything guyzero said, nor have you given a reason why we should be doing anything other than what he's suggested. lifebaka++ 16:19, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
    "deal with William". Oh dear, Steve, there's this thing called real life, which I, judging by your elaborate responses, have to be a part of more frequently than you. I do not have the time or interest to appease your wikilawyering. Incidentally, I have abolutely no qualms about the thread title being changed, and even offer an apology for the impression it falsely/inadvertently suggested.
    Consequently, this is the first time I've checked this thread since my comment 2 days ago. I'd just like comment on one thing: on Misplaced Pages, it's always been my intention to keep controversial articles, such as Holocaust denial, as they should be, in accordance with Misplaced Pages's policies. Indeed, I was selected - and supported unanimously - to be an administrator largely on that basis. The fact that all hell breaks loose when someone leaves a few daft opposes on requests for adminship, yet the general response to someone who - on top of all the disruptive editing - systematically rejects core policies such as WP:V and WP:NOR and (by his own admission) cherry-picks material to push his agenda on an encyclopedia page viewed thousands of times a month is largely "uh, nothing to see here, move on", in my opinion, encompasses everything that is wrong with Misplaced Pages if this individual is not sanctioned in some manner. WilliamH (talk) 10:39, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
    You could have picked a far better example, Steve. Cheesing has absolutely nothing to do with cheese, unless one has a very strange definition of cheese. lifebaka++ 16:19, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
    I think.. anyone reading this no doubt thinks we are all talking past each other. (Note, I wanted to keep this extremely short, but I failed in that regard): WilliamH above, just to take one example of this 'talking past each other,' references my example of an argument, but he misses the point behind it entirely that it represented Slrubenstein's actual argument, simply putting into a rather absurd reformulation. Slrubenstein's argument is certainly valid in cases like the example I used ("cheesing") which are entirely idiomatic and unrelated to their apparent core terminology. In cases like this one (Holocaust and Holocaust denial) where the terms are entirely related, his argument is so utterly irrelevant that it constitutes a demonstration of a deeper capacity on his part for fallacious argumentation.
    Slrubenstein and Jayjg have echoed this same argument several times, stating essentially that "Holocaust denial" is so far removed from the term "The Holocaust" that no mention of the latter is required in the former. The underlined portion is oversimplified, but these are the essentials of his argument. The underlined portion can be augmented with something like matters of subjectivity in its definition.
    The background is straightforward: term "The Holocaust" first split off from its apparent original definition of "all Nazi murders," and became used to refer exclusively to the mass-murder of Jews alone sometime during the 1960s. That's according to the Columbia Guide. Naturally, there has been a concerted effort to promote an entirely Jewish definition of "The Holocaust," to the rejection of several million other victims. There are of course explanations for this selectivity, and these invariably employ concepts of "motive, scale, and intent" (Columbia Guide). The issue then is an editorial one which can be broken down into two basic counterarguments of somewhat differing validity. We've seen examples of each. -Stevertigo (wlog | talk | edits) 18:27, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
    • sigh* this is what makes him a disruptive editor. Now I have to go and explain that I never suggested that Holocaust denial has nothing to do with the Holocaust. Nor have I ever suggested that the Holocaust refers only to the genocide of Jews. In fact, far from it. But by misrepresenting me and the argument, I have no choice but either to disengage (and people will have an unfair representation of me) or repeat what I have said many times ... thus ... further ... delaying ... any ... improvement ... on ... the ... article ... We can go back and forth cand back and forth and back and forth and just let SV continue to use Misplaced Pages like his own little ball of yarn. I'd rather we didn't. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:35, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
    Hey, well at least you're not mad. (Or else not showing any outward signs thereof). Nice talking with you. -Stevertigo (wlog | talk | edits) 18:39, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
    PS (Slrubenstein): BTW, Salvation needs reworking to get it somewhere back to neutrality. Its upfront usage of "..from eternal damnation" is just the start of it. Please have a look, if you're not busy. -Stevertigo (wlog | talk | edits) 19:05, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
    I don't think either one of you are understanding each other. At all. I think it would be a great help to me, and everyone involved, if Stevertigo said in a single, simple sentence what he wants to do, and Slrubenstein then stated in another sentence what he doesn't want Steve to do. All this without long explanations. I think if people can know for sure what the other side wants, and not respond to what they assume the other side is saying, this issue can be resolved a lot easier. A little insignificant (please!) 16:47, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

    I think you are misunderstanding our understanding, to a certain extent. Keep in mind we have been crossing paths for seven years. In any case It's not really about what I want to do, or what Slrubenstein wants me not to do, but how you and others can help us by sorting out the arguments and giving us your input. So I appreciate the questions.

    As far as the article issues go, my argument is that including a reference to the core term's variance (such that arises from a subjective definition) is simply good explanationism, and necessary to move forward in the direction of dealing objectively with issues of terminology and etymology, as well as comprehension, which I feel is an essential dimension within the whole sad topic. As I understand them, Slrubenstein presents two main arguments for dis-inclusion: The first one (m1) is valid only in unrelated contexts wherein a pair of terms might only have a superficial relation, and the second (m2) is implied based on his various expressed concerns for how his own subjective ethnic lens relates to the article/concept. His arguments related to sources are likewise twofold: The first (s1) that I have not provided any sources at all is nullified by my presentation of a very ample and relevant one (Columbia Guide). His second argument (s1) alleges the irrelevance of the above source in the current context - an argument that itself rests circularly on one of his main arguments (m1).

    With regard to what do I want in general (which is the other way I interpreted your questions), it's about how to formalize and broaden what I do, which is to turn an articulate wreck into a clear, concise, and conceptual statement of the subject. With regard to Slrubenstein (since we are talking about what the other is supposed to be doing), I'd like to see him transform his acuity for detail from its current expression as a modality of exclusive expertise, into a helpful and outgoing movement based on the assisted procurement of citations and the qualitative adjudication of sources. Regards, -Stevertigo (wlog | talk | edits) 10:47, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    User:Neutralhomer - request supervision or close mentorship

    Resolved – It's not you - it's me. Delicious carbuncle (talk)

    In August, several editors (including admins) edit-warred with an IP over the placement and removal of a WHOIS template on User talk:94.192.38.247. (This is the static IP of User:Izzedine.) The IP was blocked for edit-warring. Neutralhomer was one of the main participants in this episode and left several aggressive messages, including "Keep it going and I will personally see to it that you are blocked indef". When cooler heads prevailed, there was some discussion (which incidentally called the treatment of the IP harassment), the IP was unblocked and two admins issued an apology about the whole debacle.

    On 11 September, Neutralhomer ignored the resolution of the previous episode and replaced the WHOIS template after it had been removed by the IP, thus restarting the edit war. Neutralhomer started a thread on ANI. Both Izzedine and I directed readers to the previous resolution, but it had no positive effect. Subsequent to this, Neutralhomer began a series of very aggressive postings on Izzedine's user page, which prompted Izzedine to start a discussion at WP:WQA. Neutralhomer also began berating me on my talk page and would not stop posting there despite being asked several times (see my talk page history for 12 September). Neutralhomer eventually closed the ANI thread and declared himself "retired". He ended up being blocked for edit-warring.

    Neutralhomer is obviously not retired, since he continues to edit. His conduct on 12 September can best be described as throwing a tantrum. This is not an isolated case - Neutralhomer has a long block log for incivility and harassment of other editors. I am requesting that if he continues to edit here, it is only under supervision or close mentorship. Since this may be an emotional issue, I plan on removing myself from the discussion and letting others decide if this is a reasonable idea. Someone please notify Neutralhomer of this thread. Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 17:25, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

    Thankyou DC for giving an accurate and well-articulated description of the incident, and suggesting that Neutralhomer be subject to supervision or close mentorship as a result of his behaviour. Izzedine (talk) 23:23, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
    I see on that talk page history that you suggested a couple of times that he get professional help. Not terribly CIVIL of you...--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:28, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
    I think DC's edit summary comment in context can be viewed as understandable - after having being repeatedly confronted by an aggressive and uncivil editor. Izzedine (talk) 00:56, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
    What I said in a single edit summary was: "Please get some qualified professional help. I don't mean that insultingly. This is not an invitation for a reply". This was siad out of genuine concern after requesting that Neutralhomer stop posting on my talk page to no avail and this was the third time I had simply deleted his comments unread. It wasn't intended to be uncivil. I'm replying here to set the record straight because I think your comment is likely to poison any serious discussion otherwise. Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 17:43, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
    I have advised Neutralhomer of this thread. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 17:54, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
    You forgot this diff: "I'm letting this one slide because I know you have some form of disability, but that excuse only cuts you so much slack." I think you've done a good enough job poisoning the discussion without my help, actually.... --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:03, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
    And you forgot that the disability is self-declared, namely Neutralhomer's past claims of Asperger's Syndrome as, in effect, a Get-Out-of-Jail-Free card for his behavior. --Calton | Talk 00:50, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
    Considering that he had self-declared a behavioural disability, and that this comment was a response to his uncivil behaviour, it was not particularly unreasonable. Izzedine (talk) 01:34, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
    This will be the only edit I will make on this subject. My Asperger's Syndrome is not "self-declared" or a "Get-Out-of-Jail-Free card". I can provide documentation that I was diagnosed with Asperger's in 2003 and have had it since I was born. I don't use my Asperger's as any "card" to get out of trouble. That is mentioned on my userpage as something I am proud of and something others should be aware of if I make a weird joke or something. My Asperger's is always kept in check. I would really like people to stop using my Asperger's against me as if I use it as some sort of crutch. Walk one day in my shoes with Asperger's and you will change your very misguided opinions of me. This will be my only response. Thank you. - NeutralHomerTalk00:59, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
    Huh. Deny using your claim of Asperger's as a "Get-Out-of-Jail-Free card" -- followed immediately by trying to use Asperger's as a "Get-Out-of-Jail-Free card". Which, as I've said, you've done in the past. Pay attention here and don't go off on your usual irrelevancies: if your disability or however you want to characterize it keeps you from behaving within the lines, then you need to disengage instead of using it as an excuse to continue. --Calton | Talk 14:30, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
    Calton, you're way out of line there. Neither of those diff's is using a disability as a "get out of a jail free card". In one of them he effectively says "my Asperger's forces me to treat others the way they treat me" ... is that an attempt to get out of jail free? Heck no. You're going borderline incivility related to a disability, and mischaracterizing badly. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 15:10, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
    I agree. I didn't start this topic to attack Neutralhomer or speculate about the cause of his actions. It is a fairly straightforward issue - we have a user with an established history of being periodically disruptive. He was warned about 3RR again yesterday. I believe Neutralhomer would benefit from having someone -- a mentor -- with whom to discuss things before they turn into problems and Misplaced Pages would benefit from fewer of these episodes. If you have snarky comments or complaints about my conduct, feel free to leave them on my talk page, but can we do something to address the issue here? Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 16:09, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
    Exactly, ad hominems shouldn't detract debate from addressing the issue. Izzedine (talk) 02:05, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
    Calton, you're way out of line there. Bull. According to you, he's using it as an excuse for his behavior, which is exactly what I said he has and is doing. And Izzedine needs to learn the actual meaning of ad hominem. Hint: describing bad behavior =/= "ad hominem". --Calton | Talk 22:41, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
    My comment was a reply to DC, and a reference to those comments critiquing DC - instead of his message, which unfortunately has been ignored. Izzedine (talk) 16:59, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    • "Since the insults spread to me after my last comment on this"
      • I don't see any insults there, at all.
    • "...I had hoped it was simply going to be allowed to blow over"
      • Why should a legitimate report of harrassment be ignored and allowed to "blow over".
    • "It seems clear to me User:Neutralhomer, User:Delicious carbuncle and User:Izzedine all need to behave better"
      • To equate the three of us as troublemakers without pointing to any of my own or Delicious carbuncle's 'bad behaviour' is mischaracterizing the issue.
    • "...and that quite possibly the only way that is going to happen is to simply leave one another alone."
    Delicious carbuncle, all I have seen from you are unproductive threads. To reuse your own phrase, I don't mean that insultingly. They just are. — neuro 22:32, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
    Irrelevant and unnecessary ad hominem. Izzedine (talk) 02:43, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

    This guy routinely undoes my factual edit to an article irrelevant to his knowledge. He calls it "vandalism" that I add a true, verifiable statement to the article regarding the music mix of a Minnesota radio station, then keeps threatening me with blocks every time I undo his deletion of factual info. He's not behaving fairly at all.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.101.226.27 (talkcontribs) 22:50, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

    You can sign your comments by typing ~~~~ after your comment.--Sky Attacker Here comes the bird! 23:28, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
    The anon can also not edit war at KKCK any more. 7 8 reverts so far today against 3 editors. Blocked back on 6 Sept 2009 for the same thing. But here again, user:Neutralhomer is calling repeated insertions of wp:OR vandalism and has just kept on reverting. Part of the edit would be covered by wp:SELFPUB, but part is pure opinion of the station about what its competitors do. Clearly 208.101.226.27 is a fan (or, ignoring wp:AGF a station staffer bragging), with a wp:PoV based on experience as a listener(or whatever), not a vandal. - Sinneed (talk) 23:47, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
    The above anon IP has also blanked the Whois template from their talk page, which I have reverted. <>Multi-Xfer<> (talk) 01:13, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
    ...and did it again, and I encouraged the anon editor to create an account, after the edit warring block expires, so the editor won't see that banner. - Sinneed (talk) 02:36, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

    If I may provide an outside opinion,

    If I may provide an outside opinion—which is by no means aimed at anyone in particular—it is that Izzedine and NeutralHomer, far from being requested to make amends or to refrain from frictional contact with one another, could possibly be seeing only a thread full of possibly even well-meaning editors (I say "possibly" because I have only read this thread twice and do not fully know each editor's intentions) degenerating virtually into name-calling and diff link warring. Is this an example for other editors? How are new editors, who may be unfamiliar with Wikiquette, supposed to do when they see things like this?

    I don't mean to be outspoken—it just saddens me when I see the efforts of an encyclopædia built by years of experience and expertise by thousands if not millions of people, users and otherwise, diverted into resolving disputes that are often petty and waste time that could be used to build the encyclopædia's article space and improve the world's access to human knowledge. —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  19:14 16 September, 2009 (UTC)

    So it's just me then, I guess?

    From the limited feedback here, and despite what this a quick search of the ANI archives would suggest:

    it would appear that I am the problem, not Neutralhomer, so I'm letting this drop. I'll do my best to avoid interacting with him. Thanks for the lesson. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 13:24, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

    User:Sweetfornow disruptive editing and now personal attacks

    Unresolved

    See previous discussions at:

    Sweetfornow (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) Previously this user has edit warred on 3 different pages, introduced copyvios, original research and numerous problems into various articles. Their initial response to all the warnings they got and previous AN/I threads was to blank the warnings and carry on. Only recently have they engaged in any communication, their first of which was basically a violation of WP:OWN, along with borderline personal attacks , and assumptions o bad faith. The user may be engaging in pointy edits as evidenced by this . Several of the users contributions were removed for using bad sources, or no sources. Today I noticed a couple of problems in addition to this.

    • This prod in only a few seconds of googling I was able to verify most of the info on the page, I reverted it and added one source I'll add more later. The claim that no sources could be found just doesn't ring true at all.
    • The serious gutting of Matt the Knife with extremely dubious claims . A well formed cite went 404, so their response was to take out whole paragraphs rather than find the source. Regardless if an article or link goes 404, especially to a news paper or radio show, it doesn't invalidate the citation. They were also removing citations and large portions of the text because a newspaper cite went to the home page and not the article itself. It took me less than a minute to check the newspaper site and find the correct link .
    • Here the user is removing most of the article (including a citation). because they apparently can't read the entire article since its a for pay article.

    These edits are very disruptive and creating a lot of work for other editors.--Crossmr (talk) 07:05, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

    My personal opinion is that this user has not done much wrong. Please post more evidence of wrong doing if you still feel we should sanction this editor in any way. C.U.T.K.D 10:03, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
    Come again? This users first 100 edits had to pretty much all be undone because of various problems. Since then the user has inserted copyvios, tried to own articles, edit warred to try and push/remove content into articles. The editor has now stated on my talk page that anything not perfectly sourced is "libelous" . They're not even taking the time to check to see if the sources are valid before gutting articles. How is that not disruptive?--Crossmr (talk) 10:15, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
    Looks like they've been warned by other editors as well. Dougweller (talk) 11:34, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
    they have been warned plenty they like to blank their page and others see mooops talk history for that. I'm mobile now can't link--Crossmr (talk) 12:21, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
    The history of Terry Evanswood, a magician who's apparently not a favorite of this editor, shows an example of editing that harms the project. The article was prod'ed for notability, but it took very little effort on my part to establish notability. I came to the Evanswood article after reverting this edit to Brandon Hein, in which this editor removed a valid and necessary citation with the false edit summary "corrected links". --CliffC (talk) 12:59, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
    Wow missed that one. That is a blatantly false edit summary in an attempt to hide citation removal. Here is there attempt to hide talk about them on another users talk page .--Crossmr (talk) 13:07, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
    I suspect this may be a sock of indeffed Headlikeawhole (talk · contribs). This account appeared about a week after Headlikeawhole and his socks were blocked and some early edits were to topics that Headlikeawhole was interested in, like Crunk rapping and Paris Hilton. <>Multi-Xfer<> (talk) 17:01, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
    The user is still trying to edit war on the Terry Evanswood article after more than one explanation that we don't have to see the content on the web for it to be a citation. If you have the evidence for thisi multixfer, can you do up a sockpuppet case? Or exactly how much evidence of disruption do we need here?--Crossmr (talk) 23:44, 16 September 2009 (UTC)


    I made those edits because the links doesn't reference the page. I click through each link and read the content. I removed the links because they don't contain any reliable info. Removing info and fake citations isn't against Misplaced Pages's rules in any way. People shouldn't vandalize articles and write whatever they want to. Some of the paragraphs do not have reliable citations. The links only take you to a homepage of a website, not the actual content stated in the Wiki articles. Without reliable sources, then the article would be false. Crossmr: I'm sick and tired of writing the same shit over and over again on your talk page. I have a reason to remove the links. Unless you have a good reason to complain, get over it and stop whining like a child. Jumping to immediate conclusions won't help. Sweetfornow (talk) 02:45, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

    The citation isn't fake just because the link has gone 404 or there is no link. You removed a citation to a radio show. It is unlikely that that radio show is online anywhere, but that doesn't mean you can just go through and gut articles because you can't see the citation this moment conveniently on the internet. As I already pointed out it, it took me all of 30 seconds on the homepage of the newspaper to verify the article existed.There are probably tens of thousands of citations in wikipedia articles that go to physical books without a weblink. By your logic those citations and any information drawn from them should be torn out of the articles. you have had numerous editors undo your edits, and either warn you or attempt to explain this to you. Read WP:NPA as well as you've now crossed the line into blatant personal attacks. As for your reasons for removal, let's look at them:
    • Here you complain of a broken link . Yet look at the source. The link provided is simply a link to the radio series, not the individually cited episode. While the link to the series needs to be updated there is zero problem with this reference. Yet you went through and removed every single time it is used and then yanked all the content.
    • Here you claim to remove "several" broken links yet again its just one, plus several uses of it . It is again not a broken link. Its a link to the main page of a newspaper, but the article, date and authors are cited. Within 30 seconds of going to the website in question I was able to find the article.
    • Here you removed an entire section because you can't take the time to check the websites in question to see if the articles are there . The section you removed was also cited with the radio show which you pulled out in your first edit.
    • More of the same. The article, author, date, etc is cited. Direct links to the articles are not required for citation
    • Here you remove another episode citation from a show.
    • here you remove more citations which are perfectly fine and gut more content
    • And then after ripping almost every single citation out of the article, you tag it for notability .
    That is an absolutely atrocious series of edits. It shows a fundamental lack of understanding on the citation system on wikipedia.
    • here you complain of an inability to find sources. Taking the name and putting any book name in quotes I returned a plethora of sources in under 1 minute.
    • At the Terry Evanswood article you keep removing sourced content because you can't read the whole article. We assume good faith and the editor that added content based on that article is assumed to have added it correctly. Unless you have access to the full article and want to provide it to contradict some claim that was made with it, you shouldn't be removing it.
    • As pointed out above, you provided a false edit summary here to try and hide what you were really doing to the article.--Crossmr (talk) 03:56, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
    A lot of "dead links" are often stripped from ref lists and their content blanked when the information is often available on the internet archive. Just another point. I see way too many people blank legit online references when the link is dead simply because the article was moved or something. Just a general comment. <>Multi-Xfer<> (talk) 17:37, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
    Also a general comment: among the edits of Headlikeawhole (talk · contribs), mentioned above as possibly a related account, this gives an interesting insight and makes me realize once again how much time is wasted managing disruption. --CliffC (talk) 18:13, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
    Dealing with trolls is definitely a time waster, I'll give you that. Worrying about what trolls think is pointless and self-defeating. The fact that anyone feels pleasure at acting like a dick on a collaborative website and getting blocked for it is pathetic to the nth degree. That's why WP:DNFTT is such a great policy and why revert-block-ignore is the best possible response. <>Multi-Xfer<> (talk) 22:29, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
    It would be a nice response, but after 3 days of this sitting here, not a single admin has commented on this.--Crossmr (talk) 23:39, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    This wasn't even an issue of going to internet archive. Look at the first removal. They were removing content sourced to a broadcast radio show. There is no online copy of it that I know of. So removing it just because the series about page is dead is completely wrong. If a citation is ONLY a link with no information about an author, date, publisher, etc and it goes dead, it can be hard to find out what was on it. This is why we include these things. We don't run around gutting articles because a link in a citation is bad or has gone 404. This almost looks like a concentrated effort to trim the article so that it could be tagged for notability.--Crossmr (talk) 23:50, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

    Topic Ban of User:DHawker

    I have posted this at the admins talk page. My first post was missed (I AGF), and the admin hasn't been on since the second message was posted (14th of September).

    User:DHawker was placed up for discussion for block evasion . He was subsequently given an extended block by User:Golbez for evasion of his previous block..

    Three days later, User:Matthewedwards came in and applied a further, but unwarranted block that was not agreed upon by two of the four parties in the discussion. This block was against consensus, and even against the requests of the user requesting intervention (User:MastCell), who wanted User:DHawker blocked from the article itself for edit warring.

    The punishment does not fit the crime (Nothing has happened on the talk page warranting a topic ban), was not per consensus, and was applied several days after the incident was closed and done with. Please remove the topic ban by Matthewedwards so that the user only has the punishment with consensus applied. Thank you. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  ¢ 20:53, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

    Matthewedwards did not block DHawker, he formally imposed a topic ban that was agreed upon by two of the three editors who specifically responded to the ban proposal. A WP:BAN is not the same thing as a WP:BLOCK -- let's keep our terminology clear. Looie496 (talk) 02:05, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    Putting aside the rather vexed issue of under what exact circumstances an admin can enact a topic ban, and the equally important issue of exactly how such bans may be appealed, and exactly how ME came to this determination: I just happened to notice an unresolved ANI thread and decided to take the time to investigate for an hour or three, from an outside point-of-view. I probably did swallow a ten-cent piece once or twice in my infancy (I'd have to ask Mum, and that was back when they had actual silver in them) and I'm admittedly one of the SPOV-with-appropriate-balance crowd, but they won't let me into the cabal. ;)
    I'll stand by my assessment that on balance DHawker has been a net negative at Colloidal silver and a topic ban is a plus for the 'cyclo. However, I'll restate that they should be given a clear path to redemption. Specifically, what goals can they be given to prove that they are able to contribute here in a productive way, such that the topic ban can eventually be lifted? Franamax (talk) 02:40, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    Sorry for the incorrect use of terminology.
    While I will not argue the community's census on preventing further edit warring by blocking DHawker from editing the article, I stand by the belief that the user is constructive more often than not on the talk page.
    I think given that the complaint issued was regarding a violation of 3RR, the goal they can be given is to allow access to the talk page, and see if they can constructively assist in the construction of the article without engaging in soapbox behavior or endless repetition of shot-down arguments (which a quick look at the talk page will reveal is not really happening). The editor should be encouraged to branch out and avoid being a single-purpose account, but being an SPA is only discouraged, not prohibited. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  ¢ 07:38, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    I could see lifting the talkpage ban in, say, three months, and go indefinite if they continue posting disruptively. Also, I have notified DHawker of this discussion. - 2/0 (cont.) 10:50, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    Would agree with 2/0 with the additional requirement that they exhibit a willingness to improve other areas of Misplaced Pages. When an SPA editor becomes a problem they should be encouraged to "broaden their interests" rather than focusing on a single article. Single article problematic behavior suggests a conflict of interest. Vsmith (talk) 13:22, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

    Whilst I admit I am an advocate for colloidal silver and currently an SPA I do object to being called a 'promoter.' Yes my edits have mostly been 'positive' but that has simply been (IMHO) to try and put some balance into an article that was unrelentingly negative. The article already contained just about every possible negative statement that could be made about colloidal silver, and usually those statements were repeated many times throughout the article. I believe all my edits were factual and sourced and had some validity. I never tried to include claims about the theraputic value of colloidal silver or any anecdotal comments such as 'colloidal silver cured my dog'. My 3RR violations came about because my edits were being totally deleted by other editors who were putting in little more effort than a keystroke. Mastcell continuously accuses me of 'watering down' and 'contextualization' but surely thats a matter of opinion. In many cases I could accuse him of the same tactics . Regarding the length of my arguments in the Talk pages, I think this indicates the lengths I have gone to to try and win agreement rather than get involved in edit warring. This is a Fringe topic so expanding the article is not as simple as just citing another PubMed reference. But basically I just ended up arguing with Mastcell and Arthur Rubin who obviously are opponents of colloidal silver so I was rarely making any progress. Fortunately other editors have now become involved with the article so I hope things will improve. I actually welcome this discussion regarding my 'banning' as I hope it will bring closer attention to what is going on at Colloidal Silver. With due respect to Franamax, who has made an effort to understand whats going on, its very difficult to come in late and get the full picture, especially as most of the earlier debates have now been archived or deleted.

    I would like to propose this course of action: Ban me from editing colloidal silver for the next three months but let me continue to make suggestions in the Talk pages. If I prove disruptive or abusive then take further action. DHawker (talk) 13:45, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

    I think we agree that more eyes on colloidal silver would be useful. Single-purpose accounts are not inherently problematic - some of our best articles are written by single-purpose accounts. But a single-purpose account whose single purpose is to promote an agenda at the expense of the site's basic policies is a problem. I personally feel (as an involved party) that at this point a total ban from colloidal-silver-related pages would be most appropriate. I don't have a problem with setting an expiration date on the talk-page ban, but I would like for there to be some relatively efficient means to re-raise the issue if there has been no improvement.

    Regarding a path to redemption, I would strongly recommend editing some other articles to get a better sense of how Misplaced Pages works, and how its policies are applied. A commitment to 1RR, or at least to avoid edit-warring and utilize dispute resolution, would be ideal if the article-ban is ever lifted. I think that the talk-page issues could probably be solved with more uninvolved input, or if they were decoupled from the edit-warring. MastCell  18:50, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

    • I see no good reason to amend the restrictions, nor any sensible reason to revisit this after the restrictions were enacted from such a recent community consensus. The community view was clear; please move on guys as nothing is going to change for 3-6 months. We don't want to even hear the possibility that you, DHawker, "prove to be disruptive or abusive again"; please eliminate the doubt for us by finding an area you can edit where this problem will not arise to begin with. Ncmvocalist (talk) 13:27, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    If you check, the consensus was to extend the block, which was done. ME then revisited this closed issue and added their own additional 2 cents to the block. I'm glad wikipedia's justice system is as corrupt and wishy-washy as Canada's or the US. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  ¢ 23:44, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    User:Jw120550

    I have received an email from Jw120550 (talk · contribs) in regards to being unblocked, and requesting me to mentor him. Looking over his edits, I see nothing much more than juvenile vandalism, and am inclined to accept barring any other issues I haven't seen. Posting here to get some feedback on whether unblocking is appropriate. \ Backslash Forwardslash / (talk) 23:56, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

    It's best to wait a bit and see if they're really serious about wanting to contribute. –Juliancolton |  02:40, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    I think it's more than merely juvenile, it's politically motivated. If you're willing to mentor him, I would be okay with an unblock but only if we can be assured he won't make any edits to articles relating to US federal politics for the next year. This guy goes a long time between periods of editing. Also, I was particularly troubled by the way he refused to answer my question as to why he vandalized. It made me think he's just saying what he thinks he needs to in order to be unblocked. Mangojuice 04:43, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    I would agree that he would need to not edit anything at all, in either article-space or talk-space, on US federal politics. For at least a year, but I would prefer longer. We should also agree that if he were to vandalise again then an immediate block, without cascaded warnings, would be imposable. On that basis OK give him a last chance, but I also feel that his edits were political rather than juvenile. --Anthony.bradbury 13:36, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    Fresh eyes needed for Prattville COI/spam problem

    The article Prattville, Alabama is being repeatedly edited by an IP (User:98.89.12.105 who is Mtp1960, self-identified as being a principal in the "ourprattville.com" web site. The user in question has added numerous spam links for their site to Misplaced Pages articles, and has repeatedly reverted against three sysops (myself, AniMate and Mahanga) and two editors (Themfromspace and Baseball Bugs). They remain convinced that their site has a "right" to be mentioned. I've temporarily locked the article, but I'd like fresh eyes to assess the matter. Thanks in advance. --Ckatzspy 05:33, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

    Ckatz - your actions seem legitimate and fair. I note the user is now using an account to get around sprotect. I would endorse a 3RR block based on prior activity. If you feel you've intervened enough let me know and I'll come and assist. Manning (talk) 05:43, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    Better idea: Misplaced Pages:Spam blacklist. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:48, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    Ckatz - I've left an instruction on the talk page to work towards consensus. I'd like to change the protection level back to sprotect if that's OK with you. The user *might* start to be cooperative, and if not then further reversion will be grounds for a block. Manning (talk) 05:58, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    Sounds good to me; the protection was only intended to allow me to place get some feedback here. (I actually went to semi-protection first, but the IP returned to his/her registered account to circumvent that.) Thanks. --Ckatzspy 06:16, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    Done - back to sprotect for a month (to stop IP spam). If the user adds the spam link back despite the repeated warnings in then I think a block is well in order. Manning (talk) 06:25, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    The COI is obvious, but I am concerned that these news services might be legitimate. I've gave several options to the user on how to proceed, but it appears they've decided to edit war instead. I just wish that instead of edit warring back, there was some real attempt to engage them and make them understand where we are coming from. AniMate 07:04, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    Where the IP address (or one of them at least) made their mistake was in spamming that so-called "online newspaper" to other articles (I think Tim Conway was one) in an effort at self-promotion. If it had stayed as solely a link in the Prattsville article, it might have stayed under the radar. Baseball Bugs carrots 13:16, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    Unfortunately, efforts to explain the EL guideline have been countered with what are essentially demands to be included, as well as claims that we are questioning their journalistic integrity. --Ckatzspy
    Again, there is a spam blacklist. Cut them off on a technical level and they'll be bored soon enough. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:19, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    Better yet, XLinkBot. The website doesn't look as if it always would be inappropriate to link to, so I think the blacklist is overkill at this point. Xymmax So let it be done 13:27, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    Mikhailov Kusserow issue

    I didn't do anything. I just answered questions on his talk page, that were posted by other users. However, he refers to it as vandalism, and so he puts a warning template on my talk page, without stating a logical reason, so I warned him about the use of such templates.--BoeingRuleOfThe9th-700 (talk) 08:06, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

    Personally, I twitch just before I make a 3rd-party post on someone's user talk page: Some folks are very sensitive about that. It looks like you may have offended one. But I don't see how it would fall under wp:vandalism. It appears the editor went on a warning-spree that doesn't make much sense. I am interested to see if one of the Admins has an idea how to help here, as I can't see a way. - Sinneed (talk) 09:56, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    I'd like to point out that this isn't the first time that Mikhailov has required admin attention:
    Rami R 10:17, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    Mikhailov's contributions seem to consist mainly of posting welcome messages to users and asking for personal information such as where they live. (diff, diff, diff, diff). They're also adding username warnings to various user pages: for examples, see here, here and here. I've contacted Mikhailov about the username warnings (my concern was that they didn't specify what was wrong with the username), but didn't get a response other than Mikhailov archiving my question (maybe due to a language barrier?). I too would like to see if anyone has an idea on how to help get through to this editor. Jafeluv (talk) 12:13, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

    Strangely enough, he asked personal questions on talk:Relly Komaruzaman this talk page that were not in English, and funny enough I had to answer in Indonesian. Anyways, he really went on a spree there, warned 5 users that is yet to be understood by any of these contributors (including me).--BoeingRuleOfThe9th-700 (talk) 05:27, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    Rodgarton

    Rodgarton (talk · contribs)

    This user, a single purpose account promoting Parapsychology, engages in egregious abuse of sources. He came to my attention when I was looking at a long section he added to Parapsychology, a featured article, which contained many surprising claims. When I checked the sources, I discovered a pattern of consistently stating things that went far beyond what the source justified.

    The clearest example is probably one where he said two completely different things in different articles, with the same source. One article contained information that completely blew the claim he made in the other out of the water - and he edited the one that showed the other claim false first.,

    26 July, at Meta-analysis, he makes the following change

    Previous Rodgarton's edit
    The first meta-analysis was performed by Karl Pearson in 1904, in an attempt to overcome the problem of reduced statistical power in studies with small sample sizes; analyzing the results from a group of studies can allow more accurate data analysis. The first meta-analysis was performed by Karl Pearson in 1904, in an attempt to overcome the problem of reduced statistical power in studies with small sample sizes; analyzing the results from a group of studies can allow more accurate data analysis. . However, the first meta-analysis of all conceptually identical experiments concerning a particular research issue, and conducted by independent researchers, has been identified as the 1940 book-length publication Extra-sensory perception after sixty years, authored by Duke University psychologists J. G. Pratt, J. B. Rhine, and associates. This encompassed a review of 145 reports on ESP experiments published from 1882 to 1939, and included an estimate of the influence of unpublished papers on the overall effect (the file-drawer problem).

    The claim he makes there is probably false, see http://jrsm.rsmjournals.com/cgi/content/full/100/12/579 - a comprehensive analysis of the history of metanalyses that makes no such claim, and lists numerous examples that certainly sound comprehensive, including Pearson's. His cite for the claim is to a conference paper presented at a fringe theory conference - however, more interestingly, he went on to make a very different, very much more inflated claim in Parapsychology, which directly conflicts with this. :

    Parapsychology, 9 August.

    A monographic review of the first sixty years of organised parapsychological research has been noted as the first meta-analysis in the history of science;


    The source for that is: Bösch, H. (2004). Reanalyzing a meta-analysis on extra-sensory perception dating from 1940, the first comprehensive meta-analysis in the history of science. In S. Schmidt (Ed.), 47th Annual Convention of the Parapsychological Association (pp. 1-13). Vienna University. I'm afraid I don't have access to obscure conference papers, but the title's addition of "comprehensive" would cast doubt on whether even that paper makes the claim he used it for.

    The large table near the top of Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/Parapsychology/archive1 has full details of a section I analysed in full, and (since he edited it to add such discussion) various responses by him. Some of his points are false, some of his have a grain of truth but are overstated, and others may be true, but cannot be backed by the sources he claims for it, for instance, he uses primary sources to make claims for the historical importance of themselves. I would encourage other people to check other things he has created for accuracy to sources, and see if the results match.

    This user has other problems, for instance, his civility issues and WP:IDIDN'THEARTHAT make him pretty much impossible to talk to. He has also been revert-warring all attempts to fix the articles he created, by me or others. Shoemaker's Holiday 12:01, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

    • It should also be noted that he tends to make personal attacks on editors who disagree with him, calling us "pseudo-skeptics" and making statements assuming bad faith.Simonm223 (talk) 12:47, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

    I fully and openly invite reviewers of the above missives to review the edits and discussion of the cited articles. There will be found relatively little from these complainants apart from rapid-fire put-downs, and mostly statements of opinion given up in Edit Summary. Conversely, I have continually opened and invited discussion of all and any substantive issues they would raise; this includes discussion of (autonomous and un-discussed edits of) articles on Displacement (parapsychology), Joseph Banks Rhine, Rene Warcollier, Pavel Stepanek and Joseph Gaither Pratt. I would also invite reviewers to give close attention to the continued efforts by the above editors, acting in a league (cf. the close times between even just the above edits) to eradicate a source of information from WP that conflicts with the position they characteristically advocate. I have continually sought to discuss the issues, without reference to any individual, and always referring to these complainants in the third person, while being obliged by them to address their opinions, offered to us as self-evident fact, of personal reliability. I should think that such a personally targeted campaign, of which the above is but the latest issue, should be beneath the respect of WP editors. I continue to evince a keen intention to discuss the substantive issues, whenever the above complainants offer a point of fact rather than ad hominem slight. --Rodgarton 13:46, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

    As an aside, is there a reason why your signature doesn't link to either your userpage or talk page? Syrthiss (talk) 14:02, 18 September 2009 (UTC)


    Here's an example of Rodgarton's NPOV issues: . The only edits not by him have been to add a POV tag, which he reverted. It's pretty much a straight out POV-push, no criticism whatsoever appears, though he does use fringe sources to pre-emptively attack Martin Gardner, without stating Gardner's criticisms.

    On the talk page, he writes:


    The tagger offers the adjectival slight of "fringe sources," "fringe journal," and so on, as sole justification for her/his slight against the information as "biased." There is no point of discussion offered in such adjectives; we can not reasonably be invited to simply juggle adjectives about the sources of knowledge in the encyclopedic representation of knowledge.

    In other words, he rejects WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE, and sees no problem with writing an article entirely from the perspective of the proponents of a fringe theory. Shoemaker's Holiday 14:31, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

    He just broke WP:3RR at the parapsychology displacement article. Will put up a report in 15 minutes, got things to do at the moment.Simonm223 (talk) 15:19, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    Actually, he's at 5 there, 4 at Joseph Banks Rhine, and the displacement one came after I gave him a polite warning about the Joseph Banks Rhine problem. Shoemaker's Holiday 15:25, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    Ok, well just to dot the T's and cross the I's I'll give him a second warning. But I can't edit the article any more today so if other interested eyes could take a look, perhaps contribute on talk that would be a good thing.Simonm223 (talk) 15:30, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    NM, he's already been blocked.Simonm223 (talk) 15:37, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    Just a guess, but Rodgarton's archaic style of prose and inability to comprehend WP policies could indicate that English isn't his primary language. - LuckyLouie (talk) 15:44, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    Alternatively it could simply mean he thinks using a thesaurus will make him sound more informed. I would, however, prefer not to speculate.Simonm223 (talk) 15:46, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    Yes, it seems like he's someone who is not aware of this. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 17:30, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

    outdent) Still wonder why this user will not use four tildes when signing for easy(ier) navigation. --98.182.55.163 (talk) 15:51, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

    Should we move this to WP:AN, to give us a bit more time to sort through before it's archived? We probably shouldn't do anything until Rodgarton can defend himself. Shoemaker's Holiday 23:20, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    I'm going to reiterate my proposal for a temporary topical ban; the issues need in the first instance to be kept out of mainspace. If he continues to make problems through talk page interactions then some other sanctions may be necessary, but I would think a topic ban of some sort would gain consensus based on what I've seen of his editing history. Guy (Help!) 12:14, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    Guy, if you imposed a topic ban of any sort, there would be no objections from me (or anyone else for that matter). That said, I agree with Juliancolton - a longer block (a week?) would be more useful as a temporary measure to minimise the overall disruption he's caused/causing, and it also works to give the community some time to consider where to go from here. Ncmvocalist (talk) 13:04, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    Inappropriate behavior by Off2riorob

    Resolved – No admin action required. Off2riorob has probably realized it was an inappropriate comment. –Juliancolton |  17:49, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

    Please see this inappropriate comment by Off2riorob (talk · contribs) . He has been blocked numerous times in the past for disruption .

    As this inappropriate comment was left at my talk page, I would appreciate an uninvolved admin taking action here. Thank you. Cirt (talk) 15:20, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

    The comment is obnoxious and uncalled for but seems more like a WP:CIVIL than a WP:NPA problem. In any event, I doubt it rises to the level of blocking by itself. However, the general pattern of behavior by Off2 is clearly very less than idea. JoshuaZ (talk) 15:42, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    I do not see anything in that comment remotely requiring any form of action. The linked comment was "you seem focused on A ... do you happen to be A?" It's likely rhetorical, but not a vio of WP:NPA or even WP:CIVIL from what I can see. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 15:46, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    EC. It is a bit much to come rushing here for this simple question. It is also not disruptive or obnoxious. I have been asked to declare my interest in topics before and I have been asked if I have any other accounts, both questions I have answered and it is overly senstitive imo to come rushing here to report an editor after being asked Off2riorob (talk) 16:05, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    I've had a few interactions with RioRob. He has made rough comments about my conduct. He is willing however to explain himself in a reasonable manner. Maybe a smoother touch would be helpful but thus far I've seen quite a few admirable qualities in this editor, including the ability to help out. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 15:50, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    I agree that there's nothing actionable here. Off2 isn't being the most diplomatic, but it's not egregious. He asked a question.. one he apparently thinks is relevant. You may choose to answer it, or not. Friday (talk) 15:51, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    I would also request that there is no reason to actually bring this here that this not develop into a general discussion about me and I would politely request it to be closed and if any editor would like to discuss my editing they could open a RFC. Off2riorob (talk) 15:55, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    No, I would like to think that if I had problems with your editing, that I would discuss it on your talkpage - that's what it's for, and the first place before WQA, ANI or even RFC. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 16:00, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

    Cirt's reaction is understandable and Off2riorob might not have been aware of the context. Cirt is very protective of his pseudonymity: he previously abandoned an account and restarted due to legitimate fears of offsite harassment. Rob asked Cirt whether he was Rick Ross; Rick Ross edits Misplaced Pages under his real name. Cirt is not Rick Ross. Most people seek to truncate a sensitive discussion when the opening query accuses them of obsession. Rob may not have realized he was opening a cupboard that had several cans of worms on a low shelf. Durova 16:34, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

    I'm glad there is a reason for it. Do you think posting that would be the smartest thing here? If there are people trolling and they possibly don't like Cirt we would be setting him up to go through it all again. I am very sensitive to somethings though so you made a great point aside from that. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 16:39, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    It's been spelled out in much greater detail as arbitration evidence, so there's no harm to mentioning here. Cirt's security issue with the previous account has been resolved. Durova 17:00, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    Is this previous issue that Cirt has had regarding his identity the reason for Cirt rushing me to the noticeboard? Off2riorob (talk) 17:04, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    I can't read his mind, but it seems possible that might have a bearing on why he would take a hard line on WP:OUTING. Both Cirt and Rick Ross were parties to that arbitration so your question was tantamount to asking whether he had socked an arbitration case. Not sure whether you were aware of that; the case grew so long and tangled that it's almost unreadable. Durova 17:54, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    No, that was not on my mind, it was just a feeling and it was in my mind and I asked, I have seen other editors ask these type of questions on talkpages and thought that it was ok to ask.Off2riorob (talk) 18:23, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    • I find the spelling problems in the disputed comment troublesome, and yet we're not supposed to refactor. Such are the trials and tribulations of Misplaced Pages. Do they have deprogrammers that can help with this addiction? Rick, are you reading this??? ChildofMidnight (talk) 16:36, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    I am also involved in editing the page. I think it's pertinent to point out that while there is one editor who has openly admitted a conflict of interest (and this has been handled perfectly well) he has suggested that there is more than one editor with a COI, and that (in a comment he later said was a joke and withdrew after Cirt complained to him) Cirt was editing on behalf of the COI editor. The apology factored as part of rob's talkpage is here.I don't think rob is trying to uncover anyone's real world identity; he's just not happy that consensus has gone against him and is carping. He simply doesn't like that the article exists.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 03:36, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    Wikihounding

    Resolved – Users blocked, see Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Opensource4ever/Archive. - Barek (talkcontribs) - 18:54, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    I seem to have attracted my own WikiHound. User:Opensource4ever's account was created two days ago, and his only edits have been on otherwise unconnected pages edited by me, on which he has reverted my edits, including twice restoring copyvio material (despite a request on his talk page to discuss edits), and his latest edit is to insert the word "banana" in Cavalié Mercer, a clear case of vandalism. I am reluctant to engage further with this person or to revert his latest edits, as I fear that will just provoke further stalking. I assume that the user is a sockpuppet. Cyclopaedic (talk) 20:34, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

    User:Opensource4ever is basically a vandalism-only account that defends and inserts copyvio. User hasn't posted for four three hours, and has received the appropriate notifications on the user and article talk pages from multiple users/administrators, but if it shows up again with the same song and dance, I would request an indefinite block. Viriditas (talk) 23:12, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    It appears that Opensource4ever (talk · contribs) is continuing to re-add copyrighted content to articles (as well as blanking cited prose from within articles) here, with no evidence that the copyright holder has permitted the use of it here. --- Barek (talkcontribs) - 17:37, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    Within minutes of my reverting Opensource4ever's edit, and posting a copyright warning to his userpage, a new account for Themuffinmaniscool (talk · contribs) was created, restoring the copyright violation, and re-removing the cited material. --- Barek (talkcontribs) - 17:51, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    User:Sarah777 making disruptive moves.

    The above user, User:Sarah777 has been making a series of disruptive moves without consensus. She started at M1 motorway, moving it to various pages without understanding WP:PRIMARYTOPIC which resulted in me starting a WP:RM discussion on her behalf, which has now closed in opposition of the move. Now she has moved on to M2 motorway moving it to M2 motorway (United Kingdom) with no consensus, again blatantly ignoring WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. I request that some action be taken against this user, and that an administrator move the article back pending a proper RM discussion. She has also tried a similar edit war at M50 motorway, this time with redirects.

    Her conduct in discussions on these topics both on article talk pages and on her own talk page has been far from civil and constructive, and instead turned in many cases to attacking "British Editors" Jeni 23:22, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

    Also just for the record she has been making changes to disam pages at M1 and M1 motorway (disambiguation) changing M1 motorway (Republic of Ireland) to M1 motorway (Ireland), despite the fact Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (disambiguation pages) says not to pipe on disam pages. It also is complicated because there are two M1s in Ireland, and she is aware that there is ongoing debate about how to deal with matters relating to saying Ireland / Republic of Ireland in articles at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Ireland_Collaboration, a project set up following an Arbcom ruling. Her changes to the status quo whilst such things are being debated are most unhelpful although not a violation of the rules (i dont think). BritishWatcher (talk) 23:30, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    Sarah is quite entitled to edit the roads articles. I have never seen you edit any roads articles. Tfz 23:34, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    I made an alteration to M1 before she did, that is why i spotted the change happening earlier, id already put it on my watchlist. BritishWatcher (talk) 23:35, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    Sarah has edited 10000s of road articles. Tfz 23:37, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    That does not give her the right to go around moving articles without consensus or following procedure, especially when an identical move request was being strongly rejected over at M1 motorway. Or messing around with dab pages despite the points i mentioned before. BritishWatcher (talk) 23:44, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    (ec) Do you have anything constructive to add to this discussion other than a personal attack? I've never seen you edit any roads articles either (and given I'm heavily involved in the UK roads articles I think I'd notice) Jeni 23:39, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    What personal attack are you talking about? Tfz 23:41, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    "I have never seen you edit any roads articles" - not exactly assuming good faith now is it? Jeni 23:42, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    I'm trying to add perspective, I think that is good faith. Maybe you are making a personal attack, but I won't accuse you. Tfz 23:45, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

    Before this descends further into snipes and bickering, let me say I fail to see what positive role administrators could have in this situation. Content disputes belong at WP:DR, civility inquiries at WP:WQA. If you feel this is a longstanding pattern of unhelpful conduct on the part of the editor, a Request for Comment might be productive. I'm not sure there's anything needing to be hit over the head with a blunt object, but if such a need emerges, come back here.  Skomorokh  23:46, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

    She has been sanctioned by Arbcom for her AntiBritish POV pushing but she makes such comments on talk pages across wikipedia. Theres certainly a pattern! lol. However if admins are unable to get involved in this, we should just restore everything to before Sarah started making the changes and oppose the changes on talk pages if she seeks to make them again. BritishWatcher (talk) 23:49, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    (ec)It is an issue with a user who refuses to gain consensus, who has been bought up here multiple times, has been at arbcom. I'd say this is certainly an administrator issue, as administrator action needs to be taken. I have had to start *another* RM discussion on her behalf because she seems to think she is above gaining consensus. Jeni 23:52, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    Seems to be an issue of wp:idontlikeit, you should calm things and gain consensus. You should talk first on the user talk page. Tfz 00:00, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    Not really - it's a content dispute. Follow BritishWatcher's suggestion; WP:BRD, people. If there are civility problems (and I've yet to see any diffs) then this isn't the place to deal with them. See the menu titled "Please select the closest request from the following categories." when you edit? That links you to places to go for these problems, none of which are AN/I. Ironholds (talk) 23:54, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
    No incivility. We either have standards in regard to naming conventions or we don't. Seeking "consensus" merely leads to the British editors imposing their parochial pov; pointless exercise. We need to adhere to some naming conventions. While I have (reluctantly) backed off the M1; the notion that the M2 and every other British instance is the "primary" use, when a dozen countries (including minor states like Russia!) use 'M' designation for motorways, is pure and manifest chauvinistic pov. There really is no argument about this and "votes" are utterly pointless given the ratio of British to Irish editors on Wiki. WP:NPOV is a policy or it is a joke. Simple as that. Sarah777 (talk) 00:54, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    Seeing how Sarah sees gaining consensus as a pointless exercise the perhaps this is a behavior issue that admins do need to take a look at. Chillum 01:10, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    I suggest that a closer reading of Sarah's statement is not an objection to "gaining consensus" per se, but the use of votes to do so.
    Regrettably, imo, voting is used to settle issues, this is described a "gaining consensus", a description which I consider to be a misnomer.
    There are far more UK editors than Irish. Therefore to use votes to settle an issue is a pointless exercise - it is a foregone conclusion.
    It is unfortunate when the search for a logical or correct solution is ignored; when seeking to understand other arguments and views is abandoned, in favor of a majority POV masquerading as consensus ClemMcGann (talk) 02:00, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    Move discussions are not votes. They are not judged on strength of numbers, but strength of argument. Any admin that does a bare headcount without weighing up the arguments is not doing their job. Similarly, closing a debate in favour of a weaker argument supported by a majority is wrong. In the case of the M1, the argument that prevailed was that the pageview statistics showed a clear primary topic, the opposing view was that this was "British POV", which was unsubstantiated. I suspect the reason this was brought to the attention of administrators was nothing to do with the actual articles concerned, but that when User:Sarah777 didn't get her way with the M1 group, she proceeded to move the M50 articles to mirror the scenario, and that having been brought to task over both of these, she continued this pattern of disruptive behaviour. It's been said before that we expect both good contributions and good behaviour, and that excelling in one does not excuse users from the other. 81.110.104.91 (talk) 09:12, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    • I suggest bringing the issue up in the most neutral way possible on the Misplaced Pages:Content noticeboard to get outside input. This does indeed appear to be a content dispute over naming. Surely there are experienced editors who have worked through similar issues and know the proper way to determine whether something is a primary name or needs to be disambiguated with other subjects of the same name. Good luck. I also support blocking Chillum. I didn't like his comment. :) ChildofMidnight (talk) 02:28, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    Thanks CoM. I am glad you don't have the block button, people would have to run around undoing your actions. Chillum 16:30, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    Advocating for a block isn't the same as instituting one. I am very cautious and judicious and would be deferential to consensus in all matters. I trust I will have your full support at my next RfA. Thank you. ChildofMidnight (talk) 16:55, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    I don't think you have the good judgment to be an admin. Though, that is not really on topic here. You are always welcome to start a conversation on my talk page. Chillum 20:07, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    User:Bcs09 suspected sockpuppet account of indefinitely banned User:Chanakyathegreat

    I'm not sure how to submit a suspected sockpuppet but I thought it was important enough to submit this one here because User:Bcs09 appears to be a sockpuppet of User:Chanakyathegreat, who was blocked indefinitely after a long history of very disruptive behaviour. This case is based on judging by both accounts have an almost identicle edit history pattern, both have the same arguments with the same editors, both have the same edit wars, and the creation of the User:Bcs09 account was just after the indefinite block of the User:Chanakyathegreat account. 81.170.18.20 (talk) 23:55, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

    User:BertramJohnson

    BertramJohnson (talk · contribs) was repeatedly creating a bio of himself. Although there were several warnings on his Talk page, nobody sat down and actually told him about WP:BIO, WP:N and WP:RS. By the time I got involved and explained that to him, he was blocked. I know he was given a final warning, but he did seem to be reaching out to people to ask why he couldn't have a bio. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 00:25, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    Sockpuppet abuse at MfD

    See Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:Orangesodakid/hidden page challenge. The first account posted a personal attack five minutes after being created. It appears that the user is using socks to talk to himself to make good appearances for himself. The spelling mistakes further make this obvious. Triplestop x3 00:28, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    Might be a few off-wiki pals involved, there, by the looks of it. – Luna Santin (talk) 00:42, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    Hey, orangesodakid does not know how to talk on this page he says that he cant say anything because he is blocked what should he do?--Coldplay Expert 00:43, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    He is not blocked as far as I can tell (see his block log). Evil saltine (talk) 00:50, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    And the IP he is claiming to be caught in an autoblock by is not currently blocked, either. Regards, Javért 00:52, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    I forgot about the autoblock. It doesn't actually the show the IP that is blocked, does it? I see an autoblock for User:Gurrenlaggan on Special:BlockList, but it does not give the IP. Evil saltine (talk) 01:01, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    FWIW, it's actually Coldplay Expert (talk · contribs) who is blocked. The latest developments at user talk:Orangesodakid in regards to sharing accounts is also quite interesting... Regards, Javért 01:48, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    豪庸

    豪庸 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is constantly inserting false information into music articles. Completely unresponsive: he's at final warning level for unsourced and false info, and repeated today. Despite the warnings, he has never made an edit to user talk space or article talk space, nor has he written an edit summary.—Kww(talk) 00:37, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    I smell sock, but cannot remember of whom. MuZemike 00:40, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    The only moderately likely candidates for this area would be JuStar and Petergriffin9901. This doesn't feel much like JuStar: JuStar was big on detailed citations to garbage sources: generally one-off references to obscure music charts. His big trademark was edit-warring: if you moved a comma, he'd move it back. I'm mentoring Petergriffin9901, and believe him to be reformed. 豪庸 (Goyo, if you will) doesn't edit war and doesn't fight. He just silently inserts errors into articles.—Kww(talk) 00:49, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    I personally gave him a final final warning to quit and explain himself (I also notified him of the discussion here while I was at it) upon threat of a block if continued. MuZemike 01:40, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    Hoax article

    Resolved – Both deleted and user warned. AniMate 02:06, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    Two hoax articles from the same user have been tagged for speedy deletion for a few hours. The articles are Sees Me Through and One by One (2010 TV series). Joe Chill (talk) 01:45, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    That first one sounds like a show about Superman's X-ray vision. Baseball Bugs carrots 02:09, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    AIV backlogged

    Resolved – Attack image deleted, user indefinitely blocked

    WP:AIV Hell In A Bucket (talk) 03:36, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    This user should be indef blocked immediately....User talk:Somody long term pattern of vandalism Hell In A Bucket (talk) 03:40, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    Looking at his contribs I'd tend to agree. Someone should get on this. Equazcion (talk) 03:46, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    User uploaded File:RookSame.jpg and is using it to vandalize Asia-related articles. It needs to be speedy deleted and he needs to be blocked. Is anyone here? Equazcion (talk) 03:52, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    Blocked indef, file deleted. Camw (talk) 03:59, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    Thanks Camw. Equazcion (talk) 04:01, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    • AIV is again backlogged. Let's get this cleaned up before some of these reports "time out" and aren't blockable. - NeutralHomerTalk04:44, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
      • Why would it matter if they "time out". If someone stops vandalizing without being blocked, then what is the need for a block anyways? --Jayron32 06:29, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
        • I should have used the term "stale". After awhile the reports just become "stale" or "time out" and blocks aren't given, but it leaves the vandals room to come back in an hour or two and keep on vandalizing. It is better, in my opinion, to block them immediately and not let AIV get backed up, then to give them a free pass on the vandalism they have committed. That is just me though. - NeutralHomerTalk06:59, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    Generally like Cockroaches they come back..,..Hell In A Bucket (talk) 06:30, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    Except when they don't. --Jayron32 06:34, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    Thank you Terminix. (my comment has been in no way spnosroed by Terminx.)Hell In A Bucket (talk) 06:36, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    IP User:68.187.219.254

    68.187.219.254 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    User:68.187.219.254 persists in posting WP:OR of his view point on the Michael Richards page, 6 different editors have reverted his (and same) edits, with already given on his talk page. He just violated 3RR. It's becoming quite disruptive. Tendancer (talk) 05:00, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    86.178.34.152

    Someone is trying to stop me using 86.178.34.152. Note that I use endless I.P.'s. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.134.202.116 (talkcontribs) 10:24, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    I cannot see any active blocks or autoblocks of that IP address. How about get a unique username for yourself and have a whole whack of benefits, including true anonymity?! (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 15:12, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    Block for NPA violation by Ched

    I bring this matter to the attention of my esteemed colleagues so that the party I've blocked has fair audience. I have blocked Calton (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log), and notified the editor here. While calling another editor a nitwit is hardly the most egregious of things, I believe that this is totally unacceptable. For those of you not familiar with the term "rider of the short bus", it is slang for calling a person mentally retarded. (see here). There are two reasons that I bring this before my peers: 1.) It is always possible that I'm unaware of something that may have a bearing on the situation, and 2.) I will be out of town for some period today, and away from the keyboard for periods of time. As always, an administrator that feels any modifications to my actions would be of benefit to the project, is free to make them at their own discretion. I'll hold no judgment on any admin acting in good faith for the betterment of the 'pedia. I'll also make note of this post on the editor's talk page. Thank you for your time. — Ched :  ?  11:09, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    My only recollection of dealings with Calton was regarding the NeutralHomer incident from a couple of days ago - at that point, he seemed to clearly misunderstand the nature of mental illness, and felt it to be "fair game". I sadly am not surprised by this action. Unfortunately, a good block. Passion is good - incivility towards invisible disabilities is not. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 15:05, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    Except he's no longer blocked, as Ched backed off when another admin questioned it. So presumably a consensus is building here for a re-block. Baseball Bugs carrots 15:38, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    First, pardon the non-logged in post, I'm not on my PC, and not in a secure location. Yes, when there were questions brought forth about the appropriateness of the block, then I did unblock because I'd rather error on the side of being fair, and allowing explinations. I will revisit this and review the info when I return home later tonight. Thank you all for your input, and I appreciate the community's indulgence in the matter. Ched 173.88.220.161 (talk) 16:50, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    • Also, any administrator that feels there is evidence or consensus to conclude the matter in one fashion or another is free to act in the manner they feel best for the 'pedia. I'll not pass judgment, or be upset no matter the result. Ched. 173.88.220.161 (talk) 17:01, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    Reference Desk vandalism

    I collapsed an entirely inappropriate post by IP address 70.171.239.21 on the Humanities Desk, "Irish vs Germans in America", on the grounds that it was soapboxing, trolling and using the Reference Desk as a discussion forum. The user has twice reverted this and accused me of vandalism in doing so .

    Note that he brings up User:Taxa, who has recently returned to the Ref Desk making disruptive posts that are extremely similar in tone and content to those by IP 70.171... I believe that this IP address very likely to be Taxa himself. His own IP address is in the range 71.1* and he has been caught in the past using a false signature to disguise this (ie normal text formatted to resemble a Wiki signature) . He has twice reverted my efforts to collapse his trolling thread on the Humanities desk about "Irish vs Germans in America"; I have no intention of breaking the three-revert rule to deal with him, so I'd request an immediate ban on the IP address, and sanctions of some sort to be taken against User:Taxa. Malcolm XIV (talk) 11:17, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    I would have outright deleted some of those threads, except I get yelled at for "censorship". That stuff is purely intended to create debates, which the ref desk is not supposed to be about. Baseball Bugs carrots 11:20, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    And if you had deleted them, the troll would reinstate them. Which is why he needs to be stopped. Malcolm XIV (talk) 11:23, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    The ref. desks aren't articles, they're just ref. desks, so simply not responding is a better approach than deletion. But silly me, assuming more good faith than is warranted, I keep hoping an actual question will emerge from those lengthy essays. Baseball Bugs carrots 12:11, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    If somebody has an answer to what I have asked, which is not ad hominem (re: above nonsense from those two), but simply academic, then the discussion will cease, as I will have understood with more clarity, the topics raised. I have no perennial interest in the subject matter. It's just unresolved questions I can't seem to get straight answers on, especially if I asked directly of some people who are at the center of my scrutiny in the issues. I'd rather not provoke belligerent people. Misplaced Pages is supposed to be impartial and neutral, but all I am getting here is misdirection and ad hominemism which doesn't address the issues referenced, so much as call foul on the individual with a "stupid question". I may be stupid, but the questions are not...or at least that's what my old schoolteachers used to tell everybody in the classes I went to. So, perhaps there are too many non-academically, non-intellectually, non-philosophically inclined people, such as Malcolm XIV and Baseball Bugs, who don't have the answers and instead of leaving well enough alone, decide to crap on the person who might get better replies from more knowledgeable scholastics here.

    The above, unsigned as usual, is typical of the kind of meaningless rant the IP posts on the ref. desks, containing no discernible question, just a lengthy and obscure essay. And when we ask him to actually ask a factual, answerable question, he acts upset. Baseball Bugs carrots 12:05, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    Can you address me without being negatively ad hominem? What specifically have I stated that upsets you? Are you a German who fancies himself nativist? Do you take offense to the rise of Irish Catholics in America? Please be honest why you oppose my questions, or I shall assume that is the cause of your belligerence.

    Sign your posts by using 4 tildes (the squiggly thing in the upper left corner of your keyboard). Baseball Bugs carrots 12:14, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    This looks like another sockpuppet of the reference desk sockpuppeteer (forgotten the name now, but I've dealt with a few relevant SPI cases). Blocked. Best, PeterSymonds (talk) 12:22, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    Good block. The other complaint was about Taxa, but he at least signs his posts, and occasionally makes useful comments, although most of his questions are debate bait. Baseball Bugs carrots 12:28, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    I think talking to TAXA would be the best way to proceed, either on their talk page, or the ref desk talk page. As I recall all their posts haven't been half as soapboxy as the recent ones.
    I think we need a prescribed method of dealing with soapbox type questions (not deletion since that causes hassle), but some closing method. Please discuss on the ref desk talk pages.83.100.251.196 (talk) 12:54, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    The best method (which I plead guilty to not following sufficiently) is to simply not respond, since if no one will play, they will likely go away. Baseball Bugs carrots 12:57, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    Taxa is a sockpuppet of the Ref Desk troll. Observe also the similarity between the responses given above by 70.171.239.21 and those given by User:Multimillionaire (another sockpuppet of the same user) when called out on his abuse of the Ref Desk. Malcolm XIV (talk) 13:50, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    User:Лъчезар

    I'm not sure what to do about the comment left by this user here: Talk:Igor_Panarin#The_main_author_of_this_article_and_the_article_whose_contents_you_deleted_received_a_last_warning_before_his_banning_or_blocking. It should probably be removed, but it's a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy and will probably lead to further problematic behaviour. The editor doesn't seem to understand wikipedia (calling the view that American's visited the moon " pet theory" - I'm not American by the way!) Anyway, I find his comment a bit disturbing, and inappropriate - and it does actually leave me worried for him. Maybe leaving wikipedia would be good for him, but I'm involve and not an admin. Fresh eyes, advice, opinions, etc might help or find a solution. Cheers, Verbal chat 12:36, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    That Bulgarian writer with the unpronouncable Cyrillic name is a conspiracy theorist, and essentially booted himself off the Apollo moon hoax article since consensus was against him. He's mostly flown under the radar with this pet article of his about this Igor Panarin who thinks the U.S. will go the way of Yugoslavia next year. Now that the article is getting some scrutiny, he's not happy about it. The connection between those articles is something he kept saying on the Apollo hoax page, that somehow this impending collapse would reveal "the truth" about Apollo - a comment that's the hallmark of someone who does not understand wikipedia's role. Baseball Bugs carrots 12:44, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    Oops, I just deleted that section before coming here. It was pretty clearly not in line with the talk page guidelines, but if someone else wants to deal with it in a different way, no worries. As far as I can tell, this post was just a reaction to discussion consenseing away from their favoured version, so no further action should be needed. - 2/0 (cont.) 17:20, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    FYI: I just copied the deleted comment to his own user page. It's clearly inappropriate from the article talk page, but I don't see that sort of screed being inappropriate at all for his own talk page. Copying it there might actually calm the situation some as well (or not, but we'll see).
    V = I * R (talk to Ω) 23:27, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    As an aside, that username is pronounceable. - 2/0 (cont.) 17:30, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    Legal threat on Welcome to 18

    Resolved – Blocked. Evil saltine (talk) 13:33, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    An anonymous IP has twice left a "cease and desist" remark on the Welcome to 18 article. The latest reason being that "Green Griffin owns this film. A cease and desist is declared. The film was never released and the posting is in violation of our copyright". I have no idea who Green Griffin is and, far as I can tell, the article isn't inflicting on any copyright. The film was released in 1986 (I remember watching it), but it hasn't seen a DVD release so perhaps that's what the IP is talking about. Pinkadelica 13:21, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    I have blocked the IP for 3 months (there doesn't seem to be anyone else using it). Thanks. Evil saltine (talk) 13:33, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    That was quick! Thanks! Pinkadelica 14:03, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    IMDB has as it's primary user comment "Pretty stupid, even for an 80s teen movie" and yet the IP is upset about what's on Misplaced Pages? Manning (talk) 15:19, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    Breakdown at Template:Infobox Russian inhabited locality

    Template:Infobox Russian inhabited locality (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

    This template is currently indef-protected. The admin protecting it is the primary author and editor. Protection was done on the grounds of WP:HRT. The template currently has fewer than 500 transclusions, and doesn't appear to have ever been the subject of vandalism itself. Requests on the talk page have been declined, met with a rather long response from the protecting admin - as a result, a request on RFPP has been going stale, with the outside admin stating that the page should not be protected, but declining to action it. There has been no sign of an edit war, and there is no indication that one is about to begin.

    Some further outside input would be greatly appreciated. 81.110.104.91 (talk) 15:16, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    • I also came across this at RFPP, though I haven't commented there. User:Tedder has taken no direct action but has brought the issue on the template talk page; however, he seems to know that User:Ezhiki isn't around on the weekends. He has stated at the template talk page that he will not unprotect because it would be wheel warring; I disagree. User:Ezhiki's actions are of doubtful necessity and are an abuse of administrative tools where he is the creator of the template and one of the only editors. He also appears to have added the protection after User:Pigsonthewing made a bold move; indicating he's using the protection indicating he's using the protection to win a dispute over titling the template. It is perfectly appropriate for an uninvolved admin to take action here and unprotect, wheel warring is when an admin uses his tools to redo an action reverted by another admin. As the admin is apparently not around to discuss, I am unprotecting. However, this issue remains open and I think we need to look harder at this admin's use of his tools generally.--Doug. 19:16, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    I think semi-protection should be preserved, as this templates is still used on a few hundred pages. Ruslik_Zero 19:23, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    I think that discussion needs to continue on the template's talk page as to whether Misplaced Pages:HRT applies to this template. I have no opinion on the matter. I unprotected because there was a request at RFPP, the protection appears to have been an abuse of tools by an involved admin and I posted here about it because there was the suggestion that unprotection would be wheel warring. Much of the current discussion there was emotional surrounding the abuse of tools and your point would probably be a good place to make a fresh start with that discussion. This discussion should be about the abuse of tools, this is not a place to discuss the overall merits of protection.--Doug. 19:37, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    The circumstances under which the template was protected are unusual. There does not seem to have been what many might consider sufficient cause for full protection to be placed, so I can see how removing it, as even the admin who first declined to do so favored. Semi-protection is another matter independent of the circumstances, and could easily be requested at WP:RFPP. I'm not sure I would necessarily oppose such semi-protection, but that is another matter. John Carter (talk) 20:17, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    Missing link

    What is going on with the Misplaced Pages:Bureaucrats' noticeboard/RfA Report all the names are redlinks? Off2riorob (talk) 16:06, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    As if by magic it is better now. Off2riorob (talk) 16:08, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    Whoever had edited Misplaced Pages:Bureaucrats' noticeboard/RfA Report had forgotten to put "User:" in front of the names, so they were taken to be (non-existent) articles. Baseball Bugs carrots 16:10, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    No, I guess that's not it, as earlier versions don't have it and are OK. It looks like someone's messinge with the format and hasn't got it fixed yet or else doesn't know it's broken. Baseball Bugs carrots 16:12, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    Now it's fixed. Baseball Bugs carrots 16:13, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    And now it's not fixed. There's something screwy about this, or my name isn't Larrimore. And it isn't. Baseball Bugs carrots 16:15, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    Not fixed here, its red again are the pages being renamed, or redirected? Off2riorob (talk) 16:17, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    Thats the problem, they are named crat instead of admin. Off2riorob (talk) 16:18, 19 September 2009 (UTC) So we have this Misplaced Pages:Requests for bureaucratship/IMatthew 3 when it should be Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_adminship/IMatthew_3 Off2riorob (talk) 16:23, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    No, the problem is (a) you are looking at and talking about the wrong page (Misplaced Pages:Bureaucrats' noticeboard/RfA Report hasn't been edited since April 2009. The relevant page is User:X!/RfX Report‎.) and (b) you are here instead of at User talk:X!#RfX Reporter which is the place to actually get something done about the problem. If there's a problem with a 'bot, talk to the 'bot's owner first. Uncle G (talk) 16:27, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    Ah, thanks, I should have known that. Off2riorob (talk) 16:57, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    User:The Squicks

    Can you all tone down his language and possible misuse of multiple dynamic IPs (173.*.*.*) and maybe others? I think, now, I recognize it when I see it. Also, he's been called on his language before. -MBHiii (talk) 16:43, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    To accuse someone of sockpuppetry is pretty serious. You should provide some diffs, and evidence to support your claims. Lychosis /C 18:39, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    Also, User:The Squicks has been notified of this thread. Lychosis /C 18:50, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    I have no capability to make such an accusation, only to see a pattern, one that could also be produced by the Admin User:Ched Davis, say, who seems to use 173.*.*.* IPs following Squicks and reverting in his favor. I don't have the technical tools to make such investigations, but I can request those who do look into it. Squicks has accused me of being "sexually obsessed", as I recall, for trying to document and write about the original, rude, British meaning of "Yankee doodle." Such accusation, in the context of an edit dispute among people who are not friends, I consider, and most people I know, would consider libelous. That he sees me saying so as threat of a lawsuit is his own overreaction. Social norms reflected in law, without necessarily resorting to it, are often good guides. -MBHiii (talk) 00:08, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

    Page copied from MyWikiBiz ?

    See Osmund Lewry a page copied from there. According to this page, the author retains all rights to content posted on MyWikiBiz, and Thekohser (talk · contribs) has stated that the page is not GFDL. Can this page be accepted? Triplestop x3 18:03, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    See also WR thread Triplestop x3 18:09, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    The original page is here, its in the "Directory" space, the "Directory" space is explicitly not licensed with a compatible license (looks to be a version of "all rights reserved to MyWikiBiz"). Since MyWikiBiz is Thekohser's site, presumably that means the copyright is owned by him and he's free to reissue it GFDL? Nathan 18:17, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    If as Thekohser says (), the content is posted on Misplaced Pages at the request of the author, then this needs to be authorized through WP:OTRS. As it stands now, the content has to go. Evil saltine (talk) 19:09, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    Perhaps it would be acceptable to contact http://www.mywikibiz.com/User:Ockham , the author of the content on MyWikiBiz. Evil saltine (talk) 19:14, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    Tis true, my fine lad - but yon link shows they writer gave thems permission to post here, as well. I tell ye no lie, I thinks the content be used in Misplaced Pages under ars own license (and a pretty one it is, to be sure) being donated. Yaaaarrrrr!? LessHeard vanU (talk) 19:16, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    Then MyWikiBiz would need to be contacted to show that they gave permission. Evil saltine (talk) 19:25, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    Yon Cap'n of the good ship MyWikiBiz goes by the name Thekohser, and he be the fellow as written that permission be granted. Does thee suppose another tale be told if the ship were hailed directly? Yar...? LessHeard vanU (talk) 19:36, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    I'm not sure. I'll e-mail permissions-en to see if that would be adequate. Evil saltine (talk) 19:38, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    • Pardon the intrusion but this seems like a cute little attempt at a breaching experiment. This could be resolved rather rapidly if thekosher decided not to be so coy about things and simply state who wrote the original article and under what license is it distributed. As far as I'm concerned if that doesn't happen in the next 48 hours or so I have no problem speedying it as a copyvio. Protonk (talk) 19:43, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
      • Thekohser claims to may have permission to relicense it per . Evil saltine (talk) 19:52, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
        • I, along with Greg, received an email from the original author asking to repost the article. Although I declined to do so, I'd say that email constitutes permission to release under Misplaced Pages's current license (CC-BY-SA 3.0, not GFDL) because the original author is fully aware of Misplaced Pages's license requirements. Thatcher 20:52, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    Page likely created by/for PD

    Columba Ryan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) This article was created by the banned user Peter Damian . User:Lar has said that he would "take responsibility" for it . I would like more input on whether this is acceptable. G5 states that the article must be "created by a banned user in violation of his or her ban, with no substantial edits by others", however should a banned user be able to add an article through offsite coordination like this? This looks like a reasonable page, but given PD's comments on destroying wikipedia I am having trouble assuming good faith as this seems like a campaign to prove some sort of point . Triplestop x3 21:24, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    PS thank you for the compliment Peter Damian (if you are reading this), I am sure I have 10x the brain you ever had. Triplestop x3 21:24, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    You're just making yourself look more foolish when you do that. ++Lar: t/c 22:30, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    This is the hard part of G5. PD knows this. So he's going to sock and/or proxy to get "good" articles into wikipedia in order to show us all how wrong we were about banning him for being disputatious and unpleasant. Burn. with. fire. Protonk (talk) 21:55, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    Yes, I agree. While a reasonable article has been produced as a result, this is still pure trolling. I won't pretend to understand Peter's ultimate goal here, but certainly the medium-term intention seems to be to demonstrate that banning him was counterproductive to Misplaced Pages's overall goal. It's an odd form of it, I'll grant you that, but this is still disruptive sockpuppetry to prove a point. I would personally have no issue with G5ing this. ~ mazca 22:07, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    I think Triplestop is referring to Columba Ryan when he says I took responsibility. And I did, for that one. I have nothing to do with Osmund Lewry. Peter Damian no doubt would like to see this article deleted as it would further his campaign. My typical approach to Peter's actions is to thwart his unreasonable actions. But if he's willing to write good articles (which Columba Ryan has every possibility of being), let him. Deleting it is what he wants. Or drama, whichever. Don't play that game. ++Lar: t/c 22:30, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    Agree with what Lar said, especially the last few lines. NW (Talk) 22:37, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    This is a lose lose situation. Banned users need to stay away, however if we delete it then it adds to his trolling campaign. But I think his use of the name "Previously Banned User" sums up his intent pretty nicely. Triplestop x3 22:41, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    So if it's a good article, and someone else takes responsibility, chuckle to yourself and let it slide. ++Lar: t/c 22:46, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    According to the policy page, the page can be speedy deleted on sight. So since you are taking responsibility for this I would like to see you making substantial edits. Triplestop x3 22:59, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    Perhaps you might advise Lar, someone who has been editing Misplaced Pages for as many years as you have months (on this account, amyhoo), what further edits you might wish to see. Perhaps which pastime the subject were interested in, or if they have been rendered as an avatar in a Xbox game...?Sometimes, taking responsibility for an article when it was created by or on behalf of a banned editor (and you have checked the chronology to ensure it was created by PD while he was banned from WP, and not when he wasn't, I suppose per AGF) is simply to say, "This satisfies the requirements for a WP article as is, and I therefore take responsibility for it." Unless you can provide the policy or guideline that notes an adopted article must be substantially edited by the adoptee I think you may reconsider your strident posturing (and language). LessHeard vanU (talk) 23:50, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    This is probably noteworthy to... the edit where I confirmed Brandon's findings at the relevant SPI report (after blocking PD's latest sock) ++Lar: t/c 22:46, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    I agree w/ NW. There is really no option here other than avoiding playing his games. Part of the reason he is banned is because he insisted on treating other people like this, placing them in seemingly implacable binds in order to fulfill his views about wikipedia. It's petty and fanatical and we are better off just going without it. If that means wikipedia has 1 less article on 13th century theologians so be it. Protonk (talk) 22:43, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    Except NW was agreeing with me :) ++Lar: t/c 22:46, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    Well, I read his agreement as "yes we suffer a crappy tradeoff in this situation, but the last few lines (ie the decision) aren't correct". :) I don't really think that we have an easy answer available. Protonk (talk) 22:51, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    To clarify, I agree with what Lar and Skomorokh said. If Peter Damian wants to do everything he can to get good content on to Misplaced Pages, we can ignore him and chuckle at his efforts, thereby exterminating drama and adding content to the encyclopedia. If he wants to start attacking editors, we can block him. Simple as that. It may not go along with WP:BAN, but that's why we have this. NW (Talk) 23:07, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    Disagree with this approach; we should approach the matter from the point of view of being an encyclopaedia first, a community second. If looking the other way while banned editors contribute productively (before immediately blocking if they start any trouble) and having mildly annoyed adminsitrators is the price we have to pay for a better eneyclopaedia, then so be it. The problem with situations like the above is that we defenders of the wiki are buying into and playing up to the moral framework of the banned.  Skomorokh  22:55, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    But that (whether or not we play into his moral framework) is largely unimportant. And frankly, if we are going to do that, let's unban PD right now. Protonk (talk) 23:04, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    Problems with sockpuppetry accusations

    At Wikipedia_talk:Reference_desk#User:Taxa editor User:Malcolm XIV is accusing another editor of being a sockpuppet, in an unpleasent way, violating AGF. The accussed editor User:Taxa is under vague suspicion relating to some vaguely similar edits or a blocked user, but I personally don't see anything more than a aura of suspicion, and some vaguely 'soapboxy' questions on the reference desk - which isn't currently anything like a major problem.

    It's not clear why the editor is accusing the other user of being a sockpuppet without using WP:SPI.

    I would appreciate if an admin could look at this (possibly doing a SPI if that will help resolve the problem), and also explain how to behave (or cool off) to User:Malcolm XIV.

    Thanks83.100.251.196 (talk) 19:38, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    I take objection to the suggestion that I have been "unpleasent" or "bullying". All I have done is state the facts, calmly and level-headedly. See Wikipedia_talk:Reference_desk#User:Taxa. Malcolm XIV (talk) 20:10, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    Here's a paper trail: . See in his latest guise that User:Taxa is again being antisemitic: He is also making endless disruptive edits and soapboxing , which is not the purpose of the Ref Desk. Malcolm XIV (talk) 20:34, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    Unlocking requested

    I found a little mistake in the Elvis Presley article. However, it has a padlock on it so I can't fix it. So I did some hunting and found that webmaster, Tiptoety, put the lock on it. However, his page also has a lock on it so I can't notify and ask him.

    Please remove these locks or tell me where there's a subscription page so I can upgrade my membership to a paid membership and presumably have the key to these padlocks. This page is also hard to find so Misplaced Pages is not the most user friendly. Lake Forest (talk) 20:35, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    You don't need to pay to be able to edit these articles. Your account just needs to be autoconfirmed (you need at least 10 edits, and your account needs to be older than 10 days). Although some pages are locked against all but our admins, who are elected via community consensus. If you want to become autoconfirmed before 10 edits and 4 days, you can request it at this page, so long as you provide a good reason (contact me if you need help with that). Or, to get someone who is already autoconfimred to edit, you can go to the talk page of the article (get to this by going to the article, and click the "discussion" tab along the top), and create a new section (by selecting the "new section" tab). And into this section add this code:

    {{Editsemiprotected}} <enter details of the edit wanted here>

    Hope that helps. - Kingpin (talk) 20:44, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    • I have added you manually to the "autoconfirmed" usergroup that Kingpin mentioned, so you should be free to edit the Elvis Presley (or any other semi-protected) article. And just a quick side note because you mentioned paid subscriptions, there has never been nor will there ever be a subscription necessary to edit a Misplaced Pages article. Regards, NW (Talk) 20:46, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    ...anyone else added Elvis's article to their watchlist recently? (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 20:59, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
    AGF!--Doug. 21:30, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    Réseau de Résistance du Québécois

    Hi, members of the Réseau de Résistance du Québécois keep deleting information from the article about their organization. These RRQ members do not have a NPOV. One guy keeps creating sockpuppets and shows up a few times per day. Can you send some administrators over to monitor this article. A similar issue happened on the Scientology article a while back. Perhaps, you can just block all IP's that start with "70" that would probably stop the sockpuppet. Thank you. 76.64.152.111 (talk) 21:00, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    Jesusandashley's "supposed biography article"

    He slapped on a notice saying that "If you try to edit this page and the information does not match with the information we provided, you will be in trouble with the FBI, police assoiciates. They will charge you a fee of $25,000.00 and you will be sent to court-

    Thank you."

    If this isn't enough for this section, then it might still be noteworthy at WP:BLPN. A notice should be made saying that if you want to make stuff about yourself to leave it at their user page. Again, might be also noteworthy for WP:BLPN. ConCompS (talk) 23:58, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

    Here is the link to the page in question Jesus Jimenez.Shinerunner (talk) 00:04, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

    Notified user about this discussion. Shinerunner (talk) 00:08, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
    1. Bösch, H. (2004). Reanalyzing a meta-analysis on extra-sensory perception dating from 1940, the first comprehensive meta-analysis in the history of science. In S. Schmidt (Ed.), Proceedings of the 47th Annual Convention of the Parapsychological Association, University of Vienna, (pp. 1-13)
    Category: