Misplaced Pages

Talk:Radio astronomy

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Yobot (talk | contribs) at 01:05, 28 September 2009 (cleanup, Removed: |nested=yes (3), using AWB). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 01:05, 28 September 2009 by Yobot (talk | contribs) (cleanup, Removed: |nested=yes (3), using AWB)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)
This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconAstronomy High‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Astronomy, which collaborates on articles related to Astronomy on Misplaced Pages.AstronomyWikipedia:WikiProject AstronomyTemplate:WikiProject AstronomyAstronomy
HighThis article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconPhysics Mid‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Physics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Physics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PhysicsWikipedia:WikiProject PhysicsTemplate:WikiProject Physicsphysics
MidThis article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconRadio
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Radio, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Radio-related subjects on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.RadioWikipedia:WikiProject RadioTemplate:WikiProject RadioRadio
???This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
To-do List:

 Here are some tasks awaiting attention:

Comments

I altered the definition of VLBI to point out that VLBI differs from conventional interferometry by the need to record data and ship it before it can be correlated.

UHF channel 37 is reserved in North America for radio astronomy. I have linked here from North American broadcast television frequencies; can someone who knows better explain what the particular significance of that frequency is? (I know it's an important spectral line of something, and that's as far as I can take it.) 18.24.0.120 04:50, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Nikola Tesla

I have re-edited the entry about Nikola Tesla. Tesla's observation is definitely not a "Historical development" since it did not lead to any development and in fact Tesla had an erroneous theory about where the signals were coming from (Talking with Planets). Since this wasn't "Radio astronomy" or even an established "Radio astronomy" fact the inclusion of Tesla in this article may not meet Wikipedias notability requirements. It is at best a footnote so I have made it such. Halfblue 15:39, 14 January 2007 (UTC)


Earliest observation

Main article: Teslascope

In 1899, the eccentric Nikola Tesla, in accord with many other plans of his, planned to build a tower in a experimental station at Colorado topped by a copper ball that he would turn into a sensitive radio telescope. While investigating atmospheric electricity in 1900, Tesla noted repetitive signals that he deduced must be coming from a non-terrestrial source. Although Tesla mistook this to be radio communication from intelligent beings living on Venus or Mars it may have been the earliest observation of an astronomical radio source (A 1996 analysis indicated Tesla may have been observing Jovian plasma torus signals).


I have moved the (above) section on Tesla's observation to talk because it seems to be non-notable re: the topic of the article. I think the standard for including this in a basic article about Radio Asronomy would be "is this what would be found in the Radio Astronomy chapter of a standard Astronomy text book". So far based on my research, the answer no. The section heading is also incorrect - "Earliest observation" implys that Tesla did in fact make an observaion of an astronomical object, and the sources don't support that. Halfblue 17:52, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

It was the earliest observation. It was misunderstood. It has been noted in many books (his biographies, etc.) about Tesla.

It's not in alot of Radio Astronomy textbooks, but it is from reliable analysis ... Radio Asronomy textbook have ignored this, probably though ignorance ... please don't remove referenced material. J. D. Redding 03:00, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

The idea that Tesla made observations of an astronomical source (Jovian plasma torus signals) is a theory, not a fact. So you cannot say "It was the earliest observation". Adding a theory to an article that is supposed to be about the basics of Radio Astronomy violates Misplaced Pages's NPOV guidelines re: Undue weight. "If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Misplaced Pages (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it is true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not." So this would be ok in a Tesla article but not in a Radio Astronomy article. Misplaced Pages is also not the place to publish original research. Halfblue 01:42, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

This is noted in several biographies of Nikola Tesla. The biographers are not a "minority". It is verifiable and reliable. Please do not removed the referenced material. J. D. Redding 04:47, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Do note ... The Almanac of Science and Technology: What's New and What's Known is not a bio of Tesla and it even state this. A small paragraph on this is not giving undue wieght. This is not OR nor is it a "extremely small (or vastly limited) minority" held view (many people know this, such as the almanac writers). J. D. Redding 04:56, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

The report was so vague, that nobody could duplicate the observation, either immediately or decades later, or determine conclusively whether anything on Earth or elsewhere was actually observed. When scientific work is done so sloppily that it can only produce fruitless speculation, it may be of biographical interest but it lacks scientific importance Jim.henderson 13:11, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Please explain how it is "fruitless speculation"?
The observation can be duplicated by building the apparatus that he used ...
Have you heard of this before? Or is it so jarring that you are putting it down?
Please don't edit to prove your point ... and please do not removed the informaiton ...
Tesla developed the technology to do this ...
It is of scientific importance ... that is why engineers have analyzed it ... J. D. Redding 13:56, 19 May 2007 (UTC)


Expansion material

Earliest observation

Main article: Teslascope

In 1899, the eccentric Nikola Tesla, in accord with many other plans of his, planned to build a tower in a experimental station at Colorado topped by a copper ball that he would turn into a sensitive radio telescope. While investigating atmospheric electricity in 1900, Tesla noted repetitive signals that he deduced must be coming from a non-terrestrial source. Although Tesla mistook this to be radio communication from intelligent beings living on Venus or Mars it may have been the earliest observation of an astronomical radio source (A 1996 analysis indicated Tesla may have been observing Jovian plasma torus signals).

Please use this to expand the article ... J. D. Redding ...

Furhter discussion

I figure this is a matter in which compromise is possible. That is, don't make out like it's a significant bit of astronomical history or claim that the Tesla report was precise enough to allow someone to replicate the observation or to determine whether anything was actually observed, but do make a link to an article about Ben Yahuda and other silliness. Jim.henderson 14:55, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
I did cut down the length.
I added other people that did work pre-1930s ...
With aid of Tesla's Colorado Springs Notes, 1899–1900, the data is precise enough to allow someone to replicate the observation ...
Put a link to Ben Yahuda's book.
There is no "sillyness", though ...
J. D. Redding 18:17, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Tesla doesn't belong in this article because of WP:REDFLAG. If you can find a mainstream critical source for Tesla doing radio astronomy, show us. But relying on Tesla-junkies to source your claims is really not going to cut it. --ScienceApologist 11:59, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Please stop making POV edit and removing referenced material as per usual you conduct. J. D. Redding 12:14, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I have reverted (again) the references to Tesla (this also reverts other additions that seem not to follow Misplaced Pages guidelines per ScienceApologist above). The whole section seems to be a POV push and at the least needs trimming per "think of the reader".

The Tesla reference does not fit in this article in its present form for the following reasons:

  • Tesla was not conducting Radio astronomy in 1899 or in fact at any other time in his career.
  • It is POV to call Tesla's antenna a "radio telescope" since it may not have been directional and Tesla never had any concept that there were emissions from stellar sources (a well know primary use of a Radio telescope).
  • Tesla thought that the signals he observered were "Little Green Men", not Astronomical.
  • The linked article at Teslascope indicates it is a factual error to call the 1899 device a "Teslascope" since it states that a Teslascope is a "transceiver" for "the intention of communicating with extraterrestrial life on other planets". The 1899 antena was a receiver for studying atmospheric radio emissions.

All of this points to Tesla being irrelevant re: Radio Astronomy, although he may be a valid footnote in the current draft of the article if the editing problems above are addressed.

Halfblue 13:40, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

  • Tesla was conducting observation of non-terrestrial sources in 1899.
  • Tesla's antenna is a "radio telescope" objectively. Tesla understood directionality, Tesla helped develope radar. Tesla did think that the signals were from intelligence, primarily because of the repetitive nature of the signals. Tesla thought that the signals he observed were from intelligences on Mars [as many scientists of hte time thought that mars was inhabitated. (Please do not foist current knowledge on history)
  • The linked article at Teslascope indicates the 1899 device a "Teslascope" is a "transceiver". One use is for "the intention of communicating with extraterrestrial life on other planets". The 1899 antenna was a receiver, among other uses, designed to receive non-terrestrial signals.

Various authors have cited the information in relation to radio astronomy and should be included. J. D. Redding 14:02, 21 May 2007 (UTC)


  • Tesla was conducting observation of atmospheric electricity sources in 1899 and stumbled on a strange signal he thought was a non-terrestrial long range radio communication (this is not astronomy).
  • Understanding directionality and building a "Radio telescope" are two different things. Telsa's 1899 equipment/antenna was for studying atmospheric electricity sources/interference and seems to be non-directional - that makes it NOT an astronomical "radio telescope" by definition.
  • The wording is "The Teslascope was a radio transceiver designed by Serbian scientist Nikola Tesla with the intention of communicating with extraterrestrial life on other planets." By definition the 1899 device is not a Teslascope because Tesla would not have built a device to communicate with someone on the other end of a transmission he had not even heard yet. The James F. Corum (1996). Nikola Tesla and the electrical signals of planetary origin describes an antenna for receiving only, not the two way Teslascope. Even if we have a "Teslascope" here it is by no means a "Radio telescope" for "Radio Astronomy", it is a long range comunication device for talking with someone on the other end.
Calling any of what Tesla did "Astronomy" with a "Radio telescope" is stretching into POV beyond what the citations support. Halfblue 01:14, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Re-arrangement, editing, and expansion of article

I have expanded, arranged, and general edited this article to make it a more basic overview of the subject (Radio Astronomy). I am replacing the image 7c gal.gif because it does not fit WP:IMAGE criteria of a "good image", re: "large enough to reveal relevant detail" even when viewd at (full) size. Halfblue 18:25, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

  1. Eric Brus, Richard Golob (1990). The Almanac of Science and Technology: What's New and What's Known. 530 pages. Page 52.
  2. Margaret Cheney, Robert Uth, Jim Glenn (1999). Tesla, Master of Lightning. 184 pages. Page 95.
  3. Tesla, Nikola, "Talking with Planets". Collier's Weekly, February 19, 1901. (EarlyRadioHistory.us)
  4. Corum, K. L., J. F. Corum, "Nikola Tesla and the Planetary Radio Signals".
  5. Eric Brus, Richard Golob (1990). The Almanac of Science and Technology: What's New and What's Known. 530 pages. Page 52.
  6. Margaret Cheney, Robert Uth, Jim Glenn (1999). Tesla, Master of Lightning. 184 pages. Page 95.
  7. Tesla, Nikola, "Talking with Planets". Collier's Weekly, February 19, 1901. (EarlyRadioHistory.us)
  8. Corum, K. L., J. F. Corum, "Nikola Tesla and the Planetary Radio Signals".
Categories: