Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Seraphimblade (talk | contribs) at 03:47, 21 November 2009 (→November 2009: Final response). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

AN/I

Hi I wanted to let you know there is a conversation regarding you ] here regarding your recent edits. Regards - 4twenty42o (talk) 05:38, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the information. Peter Lee (talk) 06:01, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

November 2009

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on World Genseiryū Karate-dō Federation. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24-hour period. Additionally, users who perform several reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. When in dispute with another editor you should first try to discuss controversial changes to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. Should that prove unsuccessful, you are encouraged to seek dispute resolution, and in some cases it may be appropriate to request page protection. Please stop the disruption, otherwise you may be blocked from editing. Frmatt (talk) 05:51, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Please remember to mark your edits, such as your recent edits to User talk:4twenty42o, as minor if (and only if) they genuinely are minor edits (see Help:Minor edit). Marking a major change as a minor one is considered poor etiquette. The rule of thumb is that only an edit that consists solely of spelling corrections, formatting changes, or rearranging of text without modifying content should be flagged as a 'minor edit.' Thank you. Frmatt (talk) 06:28, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the reminder. Peter Lee (talk) 06:35, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I moved the conversation on my talk page to the archive and copied to the article talk. Please respond as needed there and leave my talk for other matters. Regards - 4twenty42o (talk) 07:19, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Template:Z9

To clarify, your conduct in this matter has been quite unacceptable, both in your engagement in an edit war and the extreme incivility in your edit summaries. The only reason that the blocking period is as short as it is is due to the fact that you stopped the edit war after being warned, but given your tenure here, you should be well aware that both edit warring and incivility are unacceptable. Seraphimblade 08:51, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

{{unblock|There has been NO edit war AFTER Frmatt explained the Three-Revert-Rule and gave me a warning that we would be blocked if we would continue to do so. Since that, there was NO reverting anymore. Why would you now suddenly decide for a block after all??? When you drive too fast, does the police stop you and then say "Hey, you get a warning, don't do it again... Oh, you know what, I am giving you a fine after all!"?!? This being totally unfair, also because I did seek consultation, but nobody responded, while the slandering and deletion of facts on WGKF continued (as a matter of fact, the slander has already been going on for 4-5 years!!! Why didn't anybody see that?) I request that you remove the block immediately, so I can come up with constructive proposals on this problem.}}

Note to reviewing admin. His partener in war was unblocked by the blocking editor with much of the same reason. Both have agreed to discuss future changes. Regards - 4twenty42o (talk) 19:19, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Thank you to 4twenty42o. I was actually at the same time as you deleted the undue comment from Mario myself making a less pleasant reply to him, but you and I had an edit conflict. Thus my reply was not saved. Maybe it was for the best. Now please keep that deceitful culprit away from my talk page. He is in no way wanted here! Peter Lee (talk) 19:31, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I am not going to unblock you myself at this point—when you are still using terms like "deceitful culprit" to refer to another editor, and apparently had something worse than that, I find the assertion that you intend to stop the incivility unconvincing. You are welcome to fix the unblock template and request review, but your block will end shortly in any case. I hope that you will reconsider your civility, as longer blocks may occur if the bickering is to continue. Seraphimblade 03:24, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Your accusations and view on the entire issue is an outrage. If you take a close look on all the correspondence, edits/deletions, replies etc. between Mario and myself, you would know that HE is the one using slandering language, calling names etc. I am merely defending myself. But I guess all reasoning will be a waste on you? 4-5 years ago, it was the same thing. The people with the means to do something about this, never have any interest in doing so, and they certainly will not see through the intentions of Mario and see him for what he really is. Like I said, a deceitful culprit, planning his every move with no regard to truth, manners, civility and the sort. On the contrary. If you, same as most people here, will fall for his continuing efforts in twisting the truth, twisting the facts etc., then there will be no hope for Misplaced Pages in this regard. That was the same result I ended up with 4-5 years ago. I had hoped, that something had changed here. Obviously not. I am not the slanderer, name caller, culprit or anything like that. I call Mario as he is, a deceitful culprit. I believe I have earned the right to call him as such taking into account my experience with him for about 5 years. You were fast to unblock Mario, but not me, you are fast to judge me, but not Mario, you are fast to succumb to his candy talking, but will not accept any reasoning or take into account the facts. You are the one that should be blocked, or at least have your powers here taken away from you. It is disgraceful and hurtful to Genseiryu, what is going on here. I represent the Genseiryu Karate-do International Federation in Denmark! of which I am the Danish president. I have been part of Genseiryu for more than 30 years, and have been an active part since 1996 as chief instructor and/or president in Denmark and since 2002 in Europe as well. I represent the oldest organization on Genseiryu in the world, the only officially recognized organization since 1959. But still, you choose to patronize and treat me unfairly at the same time merely protecting Mario and taking his side judging your actions. Mario is a simple student of Konno's dojo in Holland. He has no insight or access to any documentation on the matter contrary to myself. I guess that is just something you don't care about either. You should get your act together before you pass judgment on honest people, and before you protect and side with dishonest, deceitful culprits such as Mario. Or perhaps you are going to block me for a month now, taking away my right for free speech? He is deceitful, but he has a talent for talking and pleasing those people whom he want to side with him. You are just one more nudge in his belt. If you were a fair and just man, you would not accuse me of these things, but turn to Mario and make him stop his crusade as well as his incivility. A man attacked, in this case myself, should never have his right to defend himself taken away. If my right to defend myself is taken away in the same manner you have already done, and at the same time allowing Mario to continue his editing and slandering of me, then you have in fact sided with him and acting unfair and unjust. Are you going to do anything in order to remedy your wrong doings? Peter Lee (talk) 04:05, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Your block has now ended, which is why you were able to edit my talk page. I do stand by declining to unblock you. Your unblock request offered to stop the incivility, yet the next edit to your talk page continued it. I do not know or particularly care to know the history between you and Mario. You need to interact politely with one another, or barring that, refrain from interacting at all. I'm not asking you to like someone, but while you are here, we ask that discussions remain civil and that editors refrain from personal attacks and edit warring. I hope that your behavior will reflect those standards in the future—it's easy to lose one's cool during a difficult discussion, but the bickering does need to stop. All other editors are held to the same standards. Seraphimblade 04:05, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

You completely misunderstand everything that has gone on here, and you misunderstand everything that I have said. I am not the one breaking any codes on civility. Mario Roering is. He is not only doing this on the Misplaced Pages, he is doing that on his own personal homepage as well. He has created so-called hate-pages in my name, slandering my name with lies and propaganda in order to hurt the organization of Genseiryu of which I am the president in Denmark as well as the rest of Europe. These pages dedicated solely to persist in his personal vendetta against me and the Genseiryu has continued for more than 5 years now. Misplaced Pages is just another playground for him, where he continues/expand his efforts in hurting the Genseiryu Karate-do International Federation and myself as the president/representative of this organization in Denmark/Europe. On his user page, he keeps whatever version of the articles he want, despite these are subject to disputes, edit wars etc. Well, maybe I should take up that practice too, as it seems to be a procedure well protected by you? You blocked both of us, fine, but unblocking Mario simply because of his persistent lies and sweet talking, which you ate up completely, is not acceptable at all. Especially not, when you cannot offer me the same gesture and unblocking me. On the contrary, you punish me for defending myself against this culprit. For that is what he is. He has proofed that to the entire world for more than 5 years now, and he still continues. Calling a culprit just that, is not incivility, that is just calling things as they are. Now, you should get your facts straight, know what you are talking about and get a grip, before you take away my rights to defend myself. YOUR ways have indeed been unjust and utterly unfair in any and all ways possible towards me and this entire situation. You have sided with Mario Roering, which is the only explanation I can see, for your unjust and unfair behavior towards punishing only me. Especially considering, that I have only upheld my right to defend myself. Peter Lee (talk) 05:43, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm not here to defend either one of you, and am not even sure what userspace content it is you're talking about. Userspace content is subject to wider, but not unlimited, latitude, see the userspace policy. If you think something in someone's userspace violates that policy, there are appropriate methods of handling that. I am, however, interested in preventing disruption, and calling other editors names, no matter how deserved you think they are, is disruptive. We have conduct guidelines here that every editor is expected to adhere to, and that includes both you and he. If the two of you have some type of personal feud, I strongly advise that you leave it at the door while you edit here, seek dispute resolution to ask uninvolved editors to help work through the issues, or simply avoid interaction if you can't do that. Seraphimblade 06:09, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

I do not disagree with general rules, regulations or policies on Misplaced Pages. Not at all. That is NOT the issue here. The fact is, that your actions in blocking both Mario and myself are as they were, but after just a very short explanation on Mario's part, you jump to unblock him, but not me. At the same time you accuse me of various things as do Mario. The accusations are misplaced on me, and should be solely directed towards Mario, as he was the culprit here, not me. In that context, I have now confronted you with these facts a few times, but you still dodge it very nicely every time. You simply do not answer my questions. Why on earth are you siding with Mario on this matter, blocking both of us, hurry to unblock Mario but no myself. Why do you, in unison with Mario, continue to persist your totally misplaces argumentation, that I am uncivil here? The fact is, that Mario came out of nowhere, starting to delete big chunks of the article offering no explanations EXCEPT attacking me, calling ME different names etc. even accusing me of various things dragging the Danish Karate Federation and various others into this. All of this has gone unnoticed and nobody is mentioning any of that, when they "talk" to Mario. At the same time, you accuse me of doing the same, even though I did NOT do that, only Mario did so. In the same breath of accusing me, you take away my birth right to defend myself against a culprit. You can say whatever you want and as mentioned before, call me uncivil for calling Mario a culprit, but fact remains, that he is just that. When he attacks me, he is asking for it, but you should have noticed, that I am ONLY calling him a deceitful culprit and limit myself to exactly that. Taking sides by blocking one party but not the other is indeed unjust and unfair. THAT is the issue of our discussion right now. Fairness and justice. I feel my rights violated here, especially when the policies does not seem to apply equally to all users/editors on Misplaced Pages. As fact shows, I was the only one kept blocked and I was the only one prohibited from defending myself, and I am the only one being continuesly accused of uncivility, attacking, calling names etc. even though I HAVE NOT DONE THAT. Only Mario has done exactly that. Peter Lee (talk) 06:53, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

(indent reset) I am sorry if you believed I was taking sides. To be quite honest with you, I've not worked with either one of you before, and couldn't really care less about either "side" in this dispute. The reason I unblocked Mario was because he agreed to stop the edit warring and incivility. If you had done the same and not proceeded to continue the incivility in almost the same edit, I would have offered you the unblock under the same conditions. Blocks are to prevent disruptive behavior, and the manner in which you requested the unblock did not give me any confidence that granting the request would not result in further disruption. Quite realistically, at this point, I'm still not convinced. "I'm only saying one uncivil thing" is not civility. If either of you, be it you, he, or both of you, continues to edit war or attack one another, I will not hesitate to block the offending party/parties again, and next time there won't be any early unblocks. I have no side here, aside from the side of wishing to prevent disruption to the project by anyone. Seraphimblade 07:07, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

You are WRONG and you don't have your facts straight. I have now told you and pointed this out to you numerous times. 1) Frmatt warned both Mario and myself. 2) The edits and reverting stopped. 3) Then you step in almost 3 hours later and block both of us. 4) Mario writes a complaint about your blocking. 5) You unblock him. 6) Nearly 4 hours later I request EXACTLY THE SAME on the same grounds as Mario, protesting against you blocking, using the same text with only one sentence modified. 7) User 4twenty42o put a comment to the reviewing admin that the grounds of protest of Mario and me are almost identical. 8) Shortly after, Mario Roering ONCE AGAIN attack me on my talk_page. 9) When I am composing my less pleasant defense/reply to Mario, 4twenty42o is at the same time removing Mario's attack and giving him a warning for provoking. When I want to save my reply, an edit conflict occur and my reply is not saved. I take time to read why the conflict occur, and I see that 4twenty42o have removed the attack and given Mario a warning. I then refrain from saving my reply to Mario. 10) I post a reply to 4twenty42o. 11) Then eight ours later you deny to unblock me on grounds of ridiculous and complete and utter crap, forcing me to having no ways of defending myself.

What you did is SIDING WITH MARIO no matter your intentions. If you had admitted your mistake and wrong doing, I may have been able to let this go long time ago, but you keep pushing the responsibility away from yourself. You jumped the gun in blocking us, even though we had been given a warning and adhered to it. Then you unblock Mario but not me, even though HE is the one calling ME names and being uncivil indeed. You keep accusing me for doing things I did not do. Even calling Mario a deceitful culprit was done AFTER you deny unblocking me. You sided with Mario, your actions speak for themselves. You are responsible for your actions, same as everybody else in this world, or at least you should be, instead of running away from YOUR responsibility as an admin/sysop. I do not deny having broken the three revert rule, and yes I was aware of it, which is EXACTLY why I sought out help from i.e. JeremyA, but nothing happened. Mario kept breaking the three revert rule, so I did the same. What I did was defending myself and undoing HIS VANDALISM. He completely destroyed the article on which I had worked very hard to do. Both Mario and I broke the same rule, both of us well knowing what we did. But nobody stepped in, until it was TOO late, even though we asked others to intervene. The warning we got sort of put a stop on both of us, but then you stepped in and messed everything up. VERY immature of you indeed. You can quote all the policies and rules of Misplaced Pages, and you can repeat all your good intentions on this matter, but you cannot give me such a crap excuse as you offer and at the same time accuse ME of doing things I don't do and did not do. What you did was unfair and unjust, and you sided with Mario judging him as the one having more rights on Misplaced Pages than I do. That is fact, as your actions shows that very clearly. Blocking both of us, well ok, fine, even if it was a mistake, both Mario and I were in the same boat. We could perhaps accept that in the long run as we both did break the rules. But you unblocking only Mario changes things completely. You overstepped and you jumped the gun, you judged me as the culprit and you judged the blocking of Mario as a mistake and then hurry to unblock him. You continue to accuse me of something I did not do, you offer no remedy on the subject and that I just cannot accept. If you quote rules or policies, pass out punishment etc. then that should be done fairly and justly with no regard to anything else than what has been done and the rules/policies. You taking sides in this matter, intended or not, should never have happened. I was the only one being punished, and punished simply because I used my rights to defended myself. Peter Lee (talk) 02:03, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

I am sorry that you are upset, but do stand by my actions for the reasons above. I've not particularly got nothing else to say, so at this point I think we'll need to agree to disagree. Seraphimblade 03:47, 21 November 2009 (UTC)