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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Duffer1 (talk | contribs) at 03:03, 28 December 2005 (→Comments by others). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Request for cabal mediation

Initial request

Request made by: Duffer 10:43, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Where is the issue taking place?

The Jehovah's Witnesses and related pages.

Who's involved?

Duffer (myself), Tommstein, Central, due to the distinct lack of editors for this and related pages, others will likely want to be involved Konrad West, CobaltBlueTony, and Dtbrown.

What's going on?

A lengthy edit war is taking place over several aspects of the Jehovah's Witness page; the most significant of which is the matter of who will survive Armageddon according to Jehovah's Witness theology. I know such matters may sound abstract to people unfamiliar with Jehovah's Witness theology and/or biblical prophecy. Please bear with me.

Jehovah's Witnesses believe, and officially teach, that many Jehovah's Witnesses will survive Armageddon to live life on a paradise earth. Those who actively, and conscientiously oppose and/or obstruct the Jehovah's Witnesses' ministry will be killed at Armegeddon with no hope for resurrection. This 'with us-or-against us' message is proliferated in nearly all Jehovah's Witness publications. The problem is this message often gives the false impression that Jehovah's Witnesses believe that if you are not with us, then you will die at Armageddon. Such a belief is not accurate Jehovah's Witness theology. When confronted with questions about who will survive and who will not, Witnesses know that the "sheep" will be saved and the "goats" will not be. But what of those who are not a Jehovah's Witness yet still live righteously? Witnesses teach that the bible does not specify, and "we are not the judges" of such ones. It is this grey area of non-witness, yet righteous people, that is at the core of this edit war. The reverts:

Mine: Those who consciously, and actively, oppose the Jehovah's Witnesses' ministry will be eternally killed at Armageddon along with the unrighteous. Those who have no knowledge of Jehovah's Witnesses, and live righteously, may possibly be spared.

Tomm's and Central's: Humans who have had contact with Jehovah's Witnesses or know of them, and yet still do not actively side with Jehovah by becoming one of Jehovah's Witnesses will be eternally killed at Armageddon without consideration for age (based on Ezekiel 9; Insight On the Scriptures 1988, Vol. 1 p. 849) Depending on which of the Witnesses' publications you are looking at, some who never had contact or knowledge of Jehovah's Witnesses may possibly be spared death due to their ignorance.

My edit accurately reflects current Jehovah's Witness theology. I cited sources for this entry here: talk:Jehovah's Witnesses#The ONLY teaching of who will survive Armageddon. Tomm and Centrals' edit reflects old Jehovah's Witness theology that was revised around 1976. To support their edit they cite Watchtower Bible & Tract Society publications: talk:Jehovah's Witnesses#Previous teachings about who will be destroyed at Armageddon. The problem is the quotes they cite are not specifically talking about the "grey area" (as I call it). They are talking about the "sheep" or "goats", not a single one of the quotes is specifically addressing the "grey area", contrary to that, the WBT&TS quotes that I have provided do specifically address the "grey area". WTBTS articles are themed, they follow a specific bible theme for that particular issue. These articles avoid specifics of off-theme subjects (such as the "grey area") so as to not detract from the overall theme of the article, which can cause confusion to non-Witness readers. This is not a new controversy to our page (see Talk:Jehovah's Witnesses/archive 16#Unbelievers eternally destroyed?) the Jehovah's Witness Uberpenguin was virtually browbeat into silence through highly abusive language and spamming of out of context quotes. No Jehovah's Witness on this Wiki project agrees with Tomm and Central's edit, and the official WTBTS quotes I have provided unequivoclly speak against their edit. They claim we are lying, and/or ignorant of our faith and official teachings. Besides all of that, the source they cite in their edit itself (Insight On the Scriptures 1988, Vol. 1 p. 849) does not even mention the issue. Duffer 11:55, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

I ultimately see this issue and the related pages/issues seeing official Wiki arbitration due to the abusive language of Tommstein, and the pervasive prejudice of both him and Central.

What would you like to change about that?

What Tomm and Central continuously RV to is an old Jehovah's Witness teaching (there is an appropriate section for this). I want current, official, Jehovah's Witness theology accurately represented, and past teachings (accurately presented) relegated to the appropriate section (which I would link to but the pages are such a damned mess I can't seem to find it..). A comprehensive list of articles related to Jehovah's Witnesses can be seen at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Jehovah's Witnesses#List of articles related to Jehovah's Witnesses. Duffer 11:55, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

If you'd prefer we work discreetly, how can we reach you?

My E-mail is on my user page, however, I would prefer that this stay public if at all possible since there is really such a small amount of active editors of the articles in question.

Comments by others

My two cents in away your saying that 6 billion people will live through armagedon because the vast majority of people just go about thier lives when they hear of jehovah's witnesses. This does not jive with what I am being curently tought at my hall. Several talks have been on how those that sit on the fence will not make it through armagedon.

I took this from the reasoning book

Who or what will be destroyed at Armageddon?

Rev. 19:17, 18: “I saw also an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice and said to all the birds that fly in midheaven: ‘Come here, be gathered together to the great evening meal of God, that you may eat the fleshy parts of kings and the fleshy parts of military commanders and the fleshy parts of strong men and the fleshy parts of horses and of those seated upon them, and the fleshy parts of all, of freemen as well as of slaves and of small ones and great.’”

1 John 2:16, 17: “Everything in the world—the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one’s means of life—does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world. Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but he that does the will of God remains forever.”

Rev. 21:8: “As for the cowards and those without faith and those who are disgusting in their filth and murderers and fornicators and those practicing spiritism and idolaters and all the liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur. This means the second death.

Does not sound like your right duffer I rest my case!--Greyfox 16:26, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Keep reading, same page: What will happen to young children at Armageddon? "The bible does not directly anser that question, and we are not the judges." Duffer 00:01, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

There is no dispute as the current quote is accurate. User Matthew McGhee (Duffer) choose to ignore this with his highly inaccurate and grossly biased portrayal you see here. All this was discussed in detail back in October and he chose to give no objection and no input whatsoever into the subject. He has recently decided he doesn't like the highly judgemental position of his religion's Governing Body, and does not want the public to see it. He has plucked a few ambiguous quotes, and ignored the mountain of clear-cut ones that condemn non-JWs to eternal death. The current quote on the main page is accurate:

"Humans who have had contact with Jehovah's Witnesses or know of them, and yet still do not actively side with Jehovah by becoming one of Jehovah's Witnesses will be eternally killed at Armageddon without consideration for age (based on Ezekiel 9; Insight On the Scriptures 1988, Vol. 1 p. 849) Depending on which of the Witnesses' publications you are looking at, some who never had contact or knowledge of Jehovah's Witnesses may possibly be spared death due to their ignorance."

The main issues are:

• Group 1. What does the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses teach will happen to the public (non-Jehovah's Witnesses) at Armageddon who have rejected, ignored, or criticise the message as presented by Jehovah's Witnesses.

• Group 2. What does the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses teach will happen to the public (non-Jehovah's Witnesses) at Armageddon who are ignorant of Jehovah's Witnesses and their message as taught by their Governing Body?

The answer. Group 1 according to all the literature approved as from Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, or as they state "God's channel to mankind" gives the non-ambiguous stance that they will all be killed eternally. The main objection to Duffer's sentence in the main JW article is that he creates a false stance by saying "consciously, and actively, oppose the Jehovah's Witnesses' ministry" which is not the case at all. The Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses makes it clear all through their writings that one who hears the message as presented by Jehovah's Witnesses on the doors, in their literature, or in conversations with them, and then rejects that message or ignores it, (they do not have to "consciously and actively oppose it", as Duffer falsely states), will be classed as "rejecting God, his Kingdom and His message", and therefore will be doomed to destruction, regardless of how Christian they might be, as they have rejected the "Holy channel of God", or in common English, the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, who are supposed to be God's agents on earth. All of the Governing Body's literature makes it very clear, those who hear the message from the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses and reject it, or ignore it, will be destroyed. None of Duffer's Watch Tower quotes say any different, along with the mountain of quotes in Talk 16

So, the reason Duffers quote was changed was because it gives a false impression of the actual group, as if it's only made up of fanatical opposition, when in reality anyone who merely hears and ignores, or disagrees with Jehovah's Witnesses message is doomed to eternal death according to the Governing Body's literature and teachings. There has been no reversal of this stance.

As for Group 2. The Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses gives out mixed messages. Some articles are ambiguous and leave a possibility that some might possibly be allowed to live if they are good people, but are also totally ignorant Jehovah's Witnesses' message as presented by Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses. But, many more other articles say the opposite, that simply due to ignorance, these ones will not get the "mark of survival", this is illustrated many times by likening it to Noah's Ark, having a blood cross on the door (symbolically), or an invisible spiritual mark so that destroying Angels leave those marked and kill all others. There are many more articles saying to be outside of Jehovah's Witnesses organization is equal to "no scriptural hope of survival", like being outside Noah's Ark. The few ambiguous quotes Duffer is so keen to portray are dramatically outweighed by the much larger group that state if you are not with them, you are doomed, and with no hope of salvation. Tommstein and I, have already compromised, and the current edit reflects this clearly and accurately by giving both points of view: ". . .Depending on which of the Witnesses' publications you are looking at, some who never had contact or knowledge of Jehovah's Witnesses may possibly be spared death due to their ignorance." Although Duffer agrees with this point he seems obsessively determined to polarise the first part by deliberately inserting false qualifiers, like "Those who consciously, and actively, oppose the Jehovah's Witnesses", which is not only grossly inaccurate, it does not reflect the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses teachings at all. Since Duffer has not got his way, so he's thrown his toys out of the pram and is desperately trying to manipulate any arbitrators in his biased favour. It must be noted he has also been caught several times in Talk blatantly lying to try and give a better impression of his religion. He has also lied on this page saying "No Jehovah's Witness on this Wiki project agrees with Tomm and Central's edit", in fact Duffer is the only one arguing in favour of his own personal interpretations, no one else has really got involved as this was all discussed in detail back in October and laid to rest then. Duffer has been cautioned many times in Talk about giving his own interpretation rather than giving an accurate account of the teachings as they come from the highest level of Jehovah's Witnesses organization, that being the Governing Body, who are supposed to be getting it all direct from God, unlike Duffer, who seems to think personal opinions and personal interpretations are greater than doctrinal reality from the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses and should be here on Misplaced Pages.

There is no issue, as the current quote is accurate according to the literature from "the channel of God" (Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses) as JWs see them.Central 17:09, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

I think that in the final edit some of Duffer's concerns should be addressed. However, I believe the current teaching of the Watchtower Society (which sets the doctrinal stance for Jehovah's Witnesses) still maintains a hardline approach. I've put together some more recent quotes (post 1976) and temporarily put them on a webpage (so as not to take up too much space here):

http://www.catholic-forum.com/members/popestleo/survivearmageddon.html

I think these type of quotes should also be considered for the final edit. Dtbrown 20:21, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

You can look at my user contributions and see that I was unavailable at the time (zero edits in october). I did not choose to not participate in that particular discussion. Duffer

I am not afraid of accurately presented criticism of my religion. I am afraid that this edit war has escalated beyond the point of reconciliation and is in serious need of objective mediation. That's why I brought the issue here. It's not just this current issue either, it's EVERY edit that is made is met with heated commentary from both sides. Even the most mundane edit that I or any Jehovah's Witness makes is met with an edit war and verbal abuse on the part of both Central and Tomm. Once I changed "brotherhood" to "society", that was the only change made. I did it to reflect an unequivocally gender neutral word for "an association of people". I recieved nothing but edit wars, and verbal abuse for the change. Tommstein: "..it's because you're an illiterate dumbass.." (Talk:Jehovah's Witnesses#Misc. Minor changes). I finally just deleted both 'society' and 'brotherhood' from the article (http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Jehovah%27s_Witnesses&diff=32755317&oldid=32755078) and it seems to be accepted by everyone since it has not been reverted, and no comment has been made on the talk page. The situation is out of control.

Back to the subject, I most certainly do not agree with what you have said above. It is not dependant on "what article you're looking at" (unless it's pre-1976 of course), it is dependant on WHO is looking at it. Those who may know of Jehovah's Witnesses may yet survive Armageddon (dependant on the degree of their knowledge, heart condition, we're not their judges anyways, etc..), contrary to your assertion, the quotes you spammed on the JW talk page specifically states "those who REFUSE..". You also misrepresent what I've already said about "no scriptural hope", the WT '98 article I posted specifically says: "at present we may not know how Jehovah will resolve these issues". I even gave a link to a forum that is predominately active Jehovah's Witnesses (who don't have anything to do with Misplaced Pages) who have posted a comprehensive look at this issue (http://www.touchstoneforum.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.pl?az=read_count&om=4&forum=DCForumID4)(website seems to be down atm..), as it is a common misunderstanding about Jehovah's Witness doctrine. Duffer 03:03, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

I put some in Talk that are post 1975 also. Looks like we've been looking at the same forum site. Someone posted a question, I think they might be from this site. Central 23:54, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Mine: Those who consciously, and actively, oppose the Jehovah's Witnesses' ministry will be eternally killed at Armageddon along with the unrighteous. Those who have no knowledge of Jehovah's Witnesses, and live righteously, may possibly be spared.

What is the point of being baptized then if you live righteously your saved?--Greyfox 22:01, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

It is not a definitive. It is uncertain, as the WTBTS says. Duffer 00:08, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

This page desparately needs outside, unbiased editors.

I was originally brought to the page because I do a lot of RC Patrol work, and the page kept showing up with what looked like blanking vandalism. In fact, it's been in a prolonged edit war between fierce partisans on both sides. A read (a quick read is impossible) of the talk page and archives (20 and counting!) should make it clear how strong the rhetoric has become on all sides. I feel the quality of the article - for the general reader, rather than partisans - has suffered greatly.

I had been an occasional (and frustrated) contributor, with the aim of making the page usable for the general reader. For example, at least separating the readable, useful material from bloated point-vs-point arguments (take the "Jehovahs Witnesses and Governments" section, for example). Not by deleting it, but by re-arranging the consensus material, and moving the rest towards the end of the section and tagging it with section-only dispute tags. I gave up on the page when an obvious pack of sock puppets showed up a few weeks ago... CarbonCopy (talk) 00:35, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Mediator response