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"Kundalini Syndrome" and Kundalini Yoga

The occurrence of various problems with relation to practice of Kundalini Yoga is well documented. From what I was able to understand, the Western approach considers that spiritual progress can be achieved through the practices alone, but the Hindu tradition considers practices only as a part of the preparation of the body, where the actual rise of the Kundalini is achieved through the grace of the Gurudev (blessing), which must be a living Self-Realized master. The methods for preparation of the body were in fact held secret in order to protect people from hurting themselves, by trying things for which they had no deeper understanding, and to protect the name and the value of Yoga. Various stories in the West arose why the methods are secret. Some claimed that great (supernatural) powers can be achieved through practice of Kriya Yoga and that methods were secret for selfish reasons. In the 19th century many Yogis in India were also tortured to death by westerns to reveal the secret of their powers. (See reports by Elisabeth Haich.) That is another reason, why the methods were held secret. But one will not and can not attain any real progress or power though the practices alone. This happens only through the Grace of God alone and that grace can not be extorted. According to Hinduism practice of various methods can deliver progress only up to a certain level beyond which a living Spiritual Master becomes a necessity. Trying to force the results, is when the problems arise. Various methods require years of practice before next level can be considered. Jumping forward without guidance can lead to disaster. It is important to understand that the aim of the Kundalini Yoga is not to acquire various powers (which are considered vice on the spiritual path), but to achieve moksha and union with God. Abuse of siddhis has grave karmic consequences. This all must be viewed in the light of teaching known from all holly books, Bible, Koran, Bhagavad Gita,... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Atmapuri (talk • contribs) 08:22, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Further on the topic of benefits of Kundalini Yoga and supposed dangers of practice. Many teachers will use the word Kundalini to emphasize something that is to be more effective practice than other to make it more attractive on the market. On each level of spiritual development different methods apply. It is true that even a prayer is a start, meditation is better, and so on... Spiritual development at any speed eventually leads to Kundalini awakening. If one takes smaller steps, they are safer and more people can harvest more benefits with less risk. Taking larger steps and more demanding techniques leads to greater benefits but also risks. At some point one eventually needs a Spiritual Master to be able to continue. Now, we cannot take the good results of the simple methods and advertise the more complex method as suitable for the general public. Somehow, a balance must be found so that everything that people stuffed under the word "Kundalini" still makes sense. Atmapuri (talk) 21:49, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I have nominated that your references to "Kundalini Syndrome" on the Kundalini Yoga page be dropped entirely. The concept itself is pseudo-scientific and baseless. The article you link to on Misplaced Pages is already flagged as needing professional verification, and thus is not a good source reference to be used on other pages. "Kundalini Syndrome" mainly refers to changes in "Kundalini Energy", and NOT the YOGA FORM. Any reference to Yoga + Kundalini Syndrome do not EVER specify any particular system of yoga, and in fact yoga as a spiritual practice leading to kundalini syndrome is hypothetical and listed as only one possible cause out of many different potential instances. Therefore any link to Kundalini Yoga directly is very very tenuous and only is mistaken this way because of the name similarities. Stop revising the history and re-placing this in the top paragraphs. This does Yoga as a whole and Kundalini Yoga no service and is misleading. If you replace it here, you would have to place it on EVERY YOGA PAGE and EVERY SPIRITUAL DISCIPLINE page, including martial arts, qi gong, etc. etc.. It makes no sense. This is a very rare "condition" of "symptoms" that have no record of "permanent mental damage" and mostly leads to happiness and greater self-awareness when it occurs. Your reference by your teacher is not scientific, nor legitimate and only creates confusion. If you want to discuss why a 1st source spiritual teacher warning about mental damage is not legitimate, that can be discussed, however, its self-evident he is not a doctor, nor does he support his claim with ANY relevant data. You simply pulled this quote to cherry pick what you wanted to promote - his book has nothing to do with "Kundalini syndrome". In fact, he says in his own Guru's words that: "Kundalini is the divine mother. A true mother never causes harm or does anything bad to her children." (quoted from your same book from your source, Paramhans Swami Maheshwarananda, page 49). According to his view true kundalini awakening has no side effects other than pure joy, pure knowledge and pure love.Fatehji (talk) 13:42, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

The problem with the logic you present is multi-fold. The problem I see today is any pseudoscientist can write a book making some obscure claims. Then an uneducated person can pick this up and read it, and believe it without having the opposite side of the story, or having the experience themselves and thus end up spreading negative beliefs widely with no reference for how obscure they are. You even say yourself a few times you "believe" it to be wide spread. But those books do not offer that, and as such, you should not take it upon yourself to judge how important this is to other people, "as a warning" you say. Your sources are tenuous at best, the article you refernce on Wiki has been flagged for needing further verification and professional validation - which has not happened. So, I would not link to that - the source is unprofessional.Fatehji (talk) 13:42, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Additionally, the whole concept of linking this so called "syndrome" to the yoga itself is an error in thinking. The syndrome refers to the dormant energy in all humans="kundalini". But Kundalini Yoga is just one yoga, like Raja or Hatha, and - like all yogas - they are all exercises and meditations that work with the Kundalini energy. It is the goal of all yogas to "raise the kundalini"(awareness). So, the "syndrome" actually refers to all spiritual practices. It only happens to be coined this way because some psuedoscientist made it up. It has nothing directly to do with "Kundalini Yoga".Fatehji (talk) 00:08, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Kundalini Yoga Benefits, Not Secret or Harmful, Stop the Bigotry

I respectfully disagree completely. This is exactly what I would call misinformation, or misdirection of information. The only thing not making sense is your argument. First of all, you keep claiming this Syndrome is well documented, yet you offer no sources. I have counter sourced you with a US Congressional resolution recognizing its wide range of benefits, and also books by Doctors of all the benefits of the systems. There is an extremely healthy practice of Kundalini Yoga in the US where many people in hospitals, schools and work are helped with their problems with this yoga. No one has every developed "mental damage" from this style through practice that is "widely documented from a legitimate source. In fact, if anything it is widely used to heal mental damage, not cause it! You should try it, because it is known by experience and not talk, and it could help you.Fatehji (talk) 06:42, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Here's where you really mislead and misdirect. ALL YOGA forms work towards raising of the Kundalini energy. Kundalini doesn't have a copyright by Hindus (which you've claimed that over and over again) You claim that one cannot understand or benefit from Kundalini Yoga because it must be taught by a Spiritual master or given by a blessing of God... Which GOD do you mean exactly? (I assume you mean a Hindu one, because actually Yogi Bhajan was a Master of Kundalini Yoga at age 16, and in Sikh teachings, there is only One GOD, and that GOD is simultaneously in everyone, so everyone has the right to self-initiate themselves into the practice). Anything like claiming that a Hindu God only can give benefits is the very definition of a bigotry. To the contrary of what you claim, this system, is already being widely taught and the benefits are safe and countless! You cannot copyright enlightenment, love, or healing. You can't copyright Yoga. It's shown that this system can be practiced by anyone of any age and they can have huge benefits in short times.Fatehji (talk) 06:42, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

This in effect is a tactic to keep the benefits of the practice under a hegemony of Brahmin (hindu elite priest culture) beliefs. Yet, this practice has enormous and considerable benefits and that was proven and shown by Yogi Bhajan and the many (100,000 or more) practitioners of Kundalini Yoga as Taught by Yogi Bhajan in the US. The US Government even recognized his teachings and their benefits on a list that only includes Yogi Bhajan, Martin Luther King, Mother Teresa, and John Pope Paul II! How dare you claim this isn't legitimate? How can you continue to refute the proof to the contrary of what you claim?Fatehji (talk) 06:42, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

However, I can see why you act this way, because when Yogi Bhajan left India to teach the system he was cursed, slandered, and threatened with his life by many Hindu yogis who did not want the secrets revealed. BUT what you have refused to understand is that the cat is out of the bag. Once out, it cannot be put back in. You cannot scare people to avoid the practice of this form of yoga. It has already been revealed and opened to the public, and the many benefits are proven: that it is healthy and safe for of self-improvement and equalizes power of people by giving them the tools they need to succeed. That is what you fear, it would appear. If one would logically trace your motives it seems you are trying to say the Hindu practice is the only legitimate way and anyone else who teaches it outside of Hinduism will be harmed... That's just so misleading and untrue, and it's so obvious where you are coming from. Otherwise you wouldn't keep removing the Sikh references being made on the intro paragraphs.Fatehji (talk) 06:42, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Certainly Kundalini Yoga is a strong style, and people undergo changes and grow from it, and the help of a teacher overseeing it is valuable addition, not a requirement. It helps in guidance... The lack of which doesn't cause 'mental illness syndromes'. It's all open to all now, and it's safe, and because it's needed to help people of this time. Meditation and the Kriyas of Kundalini Yoga teaches us that the many secrets can be practiced by anyone of any age - proven time and time again in the US. Your argument comes from an old religious scare tactic, and you're not fooling anyone.Fatehji (talk) 06:42, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Additionally you have made no efforts to reference your claims. You use only a single source book, which is a primary source teaching, and therefore non-verifiable. 4 citations to 1 book, and just 2 pages, shows me you have limited knowledge on the subject, and you choose only 1 negative warning out of an entire book promoting the benefits of the yoga... This makes your "pull-quote" suspect. ADDITIONALLY, others posts by you about Paramhans Swami Maheshwarananda have been flagged as advertising and lacking proper citation. This is not your first issue relying on your opinion and not facts. Your citations and background on this are weak and your arguments are lacking citation and legitimate proof on any modern "widespread" "mental" "syndromes" that are currently injuring all sorts of practitioners of Kundalini yoga. This is simply ignorant speaking and thinking... and the only people you are injuring are the people who would see this page and help themselves by practicing a healthy and healing style of yoga. This is not advertising. I'm just saying the hundred of thousands of benefits outweigh any negatives, and it should be reflected as such in the descriptions. Additionally it should be reflected that the Sikh and Western practice is equally legitimate as any Hindu practice. Yoga is beyond religion, and you are trying to use religion to hijack yoga, and that is completely elitist and bigoted.Fatehji (talk) 06:42, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

I beg your pardon. Yoga is about making friends. So how are you comming along? Seems to me you ended before you started. About references, The Kundalini Syndrome page contains plenty of references. You see, you can not get a book published on the subject if there is only one case in a million. There has to be a certain population. About Hindu, Yoga comes from India and India has legal copyright on Yoga. Sikhism is part of Hinduism. I also read the Bible and there you can read, there is only one God. We are always talking about the same one. About self initiation, we disagree, but all views have the right to be presented and that is why Yogi Bhajan has its own topic. But to push the views of Yoga Bhajan beyond that and make it seem general would not be appropriate. That would be POV. Saying that Yoga can not be owned by anyone is correct. The problem is only what that is, what is that truth!! Maybe it is advertised as (wine) Yoga, but that is not Yoga? Different people say different things.

You said "this system, is already being widely taught and the benefits are safe and countless". What system? There is no definition about what is Kundalini Yoga practice except according to what individual teachers define. "However, I can see why you act this way, because when Yogi Bhajan left India to teach the system he was cursed" I am sorry to hear that, but I would only like to retain both views in the article. You have the right to present your case and should not take that same right from others. As I said not all people agree with the idea of evil "brahmins". The term Kundalini Yoga is used for so many things that it is impossible to say neither, that it is Good or Bad. But some people who have used that name, have practiced things which harmed them. The Kundalini Yoga practice as advertised by Yogi Bhajan, may be as you presented it. I can not know and would not try to judge it. About reference to Kundalini Syndrome. If you really think it is necessary we can copy some of the Kundalini Syndrome article to Kundalini Yoga page, so that different issues will be properly referenced. About hundred of thousands of benefits outweigh any negatives: Benefits of what? We don't even know, if we are talking about the same thing. It is my view that Kundalini Syndrome article is well documented and addresses a real problem that has surfaced in the society. Maybe Yoga Bhajan claims the expression "Kundalini Yoga" for himself and that's why we have a problem? We could write: Kundalini Yoga as though by Yogi Bhajan claims to have this properties. Kundalini Yoga as though by ... claims to have this properties and so on. But writing in general would not be accurate because the diversity is too grand. That is why the paragraph starts: In Hindu tradition, the beliefs are like this. (Because in other traditions the views are so different!) We can add: These claims are not supported by Sikh named Yogi Bhajan which... Atmapuri (talk) 13:31, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

NO. I beg your pardon. First of all, I'm not here to 'make friends'. I'm here to make sure this article is accurate and the information is legitimate. You make outlandish claims and its impossible to reach a resolution with you because you are acting like a classic bigot and you have your own agenda, which you have made very clear. You are making me upset because you constantly remove references to Sikh religion in this post and in other posts. I would take the time to refute all of your beliefs, but I don't see you will change. Others have tried, and you just tell your own story.. So let me at least address a couple points as a matter of record because they are so completely wrong.

1A) Your erroneous and blind claim that the Kundalini Syndrome page on Wiki contains plenty of references. It first of all has already been flagged as needing a professional verification. Can you not clearly see that box at the top of the page? It means, the info is SUSPECT or UNPROFESSIONAL. It uses basically 2 references over and over again, and just because it cites the same book 2 dozen times does not make it more 'prevalent and widespread'. Therefore, I don't need to verify that your source is poor, and unprofessional at best. Your only argument seems to be that because something is published, then that means that it must be widespread. That logic has no basis in reality. If I publish a book about Hindus having 3-headed toilet scrubbers as babies, then that doesn't mean it's widespread - it may have only happened once (and I think I know where).

1B) That "Kundalini Syndrome" (which should always be quoted because it's not a real syndrome... "Syndrome" of What Exactly?) has any relationship to Kundalini Yoga itself, besides in name is sketchy. The term "Kundalini" itself refers to the energy within all humans, and all yoga forms work to raise this energy to raise awareness. You may as well call it "Awareness Syndrome". And you may as well post your warning at the top of all the different Yoga pages, because they all work to raise Kundalini energy. Good luck getting that through - don't know why you are picking just Kundalini Yoga, because it is only similar in name.

2) Your outlandish claims that Hinduism has a "Copyright" on Yoga!?!?!? Seriously. Yoga is not copyrightable by any religion. That's like saying Jews have a copyright on Jesus. Yoga is not a religion first of all. And any co-opting of yoga by one religion is a seriously bigoted flaw. The Upanishads (yogic texts) do not belong to or are copyrightable to anyone. You are talking about Vedic philosophy so old that it originally was passed on by story and word of mouth before it was even written down. I think that may be beyond the reach of "copyright" at this point.

3) This is amazing.. What did you say: "Sikhism is part of Hinduism"??! Wow. You are truly taking your plays from a different book - one that has nothing to do with reality. This is like saying Protestantism is a part of Roman Catholicism. It's downright offensive. First of all, you need to read history before you post such nonsense. For the record, Sikhism is its own independent religion, with its own system of writing and hymns and prayers and separate Gurus and completely different view on God. Sikhism does not preach, but shares and gives unity and the message of One God for the entire brotherhood of man. Don't try to distort history!! Guru Nanak, founder of Sikhism - his first words were: "There is no Hindu, There is no Muslim". That's what you can't stand, and one day you will learn it, but not from me. Study up here: and here . This is the kind of bigotry that leads to persecution of people and the re-writing of history, very similar to the fascism of Hitler when he denied the authenticity of the Holocaust. Very bad news that you see the world this way. I am sorry for you because I don't know what I can do to help you, besides suggest you educate yourself and start talking to different people than whomever taught you this nonsense.

I don't have the time to break down your ignorant and outlandish claims any further. Read about Sikhism, don't trample it at every opportunity. It's difficult for me to discuss things with you seeing your history of postings, and multiple warnings as to your many blatant editing wars. You have been warned numerous times, but you don't change. You have tried to erase Sikh references in other articles in the past. It's all a trail of nonsense that I can't support. And on top of it, I don't expect you to understand what I am saying, which is unfortunate.

The main problem with all of your arguments is that you see Hinduism as the beginning of everything and nothing outside of it. This is called BIGOTRY. I could just as well say:"In Sikhism kundalini yoga is seen this way, but in some other views, like Hinduism, it is not to be shared by anyone..." You always want to put your story as primary with the implication that other stories are secondary, in your editing tone and revisions this comes up again and again. You even prove it with your crazy agenda and statements above. You somehow believe that the Hindu view on Kundalini is the primal and accurate one, but there is no such thing as accuracy here. It's interpreted differently by each teacher and shifts based on that teachers knowledge. That's why when Yogi Bhajan made it available to all, he codified it into a system that is not changeable. You claim you don't know about it - that's your issue - but it's what all other people know. He legitimatized it and made it a public system, not hidden away as in the past. That was his great achievement, and thus, this is the real Kundalini yoga as people practice it widely today. If any other form is secret, then you can end the discussion right now, because it's secret. But I will talk about the version that everyone else is practicing (which is the same Kundalini Yoga) just not secret. And this was a big change and revolution in the style, so it is very important to mention that upfront.

And additionally, Misplaced Pages is meant to be neutral, so I will always talk about one religion on equal level with another religion. So, stop erasing references to Sikhism like you do over and over again. You've done in other articles and been warned for previously! Educate yourself first. Sikhism and Hinduism are equal. Sleep on that.

It would be nice to understand your fundamental gripe. Obviously you have been taught incorrectly, but what is your agenda and mission to remove Sikh references from Kundalini Yoga when it is practiced all over the world? Kundalini Yoga is all over the United States and the World being practiced safely, without any record of this so called "Kundalini Syndrome". Your negative references do Kundalini yoga no aid or assistance... So what is your ultimate goal - to put Kundalini Yoga back into a box and hide it away from everyone?? Sorry, but it's too late. We have an entirely published Kundalini Yoga system here in the West... over 100 manuals. It is categorized, systematized, and it is printed widely and recognized everywhere. And it is shared freely. And it won't ever be hidden again by any big religious group, or one small persons agenda.Fatehji (talk) 23:24, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

"Kundalini Yoga, because it is only similar in name." It is important to mentioned that problems arise specifically with relation to Kundalini Yoga, because that it is what the all three "references" talk about (Scotton, Kason and Maheshewarnanda). Typically Kundalini Yoga name is used with more advanced methods of Yoga or as you might say, advanced spiritual practice. If Yogi Bhajan used this name to teach less intense methods than this does not apply to his school. Yoga is Copyrightable for practical reasons. Because its name and features have been used modified and adapted for just about anything, causing harm both to individuals and to the name of Yoga. The knowledge of Yoga in its pure form was communicated (according to Hinduism) from Shiva to Parvati. There is no improvement possible above perfection. We can present the subject differently, but the very methods and practice remain the same. For this reason, India will copyright all original Yogic Asanas and other practices, not to claim ownership, but to prevent them from being abused and charged for by third parties looking to earn a buck in the same way that US corporations tried to patent the DNA of Basmati rice. All adaptions of Yoga which are not first hand (God to man) are not really Yoga and the results of the practices will not give that what the original would. About Sikhism. The religion has its own name for a purpose, if you dont like it to be called a part of Hinduism, no problem. I can not find or remember any edits of mine on the topic of Sikhism. I think Sikhism is a fine religion and I have no objections. If I removed the Sikh word from the article it was not against the Sikh, but because either the content was not referenced or you modified referenced content so that it was no longer according to the reference or because you equated Yogi Bhajan as the representative of all Sikhs (which even according to your writing on the talk page is not true). Yogi Bhajan comes from a Sikh background, but he is not representative of the Sikh. Hinduism is put up front because Yoga comes from Shiva and Shiva is a God in Hinudism (one from the holy trinity which makes up the One). Therefore, it is normal that original and first sources are put up front. The different weights in the articles in general are always given to groups which have more followers and Hinduism has more followers than Sikhism. That is why Hindu tradition is mentioned first, and then followed by the Sikh. What Yogi Bhajan made public I dont know, but I can tell you that anything publicly available today does not cover 1% of the knowledge still hidden. Therefore Yogi Bhajan made public some Yogic methods, which obviously made many people happy and he called them Kundalini Yoga. The types of methods practiced must always be matched with the level of spiritual development. One way to do that is to take lowest common denominator and make them suitable for everybody. This does not mean that these methods are the final and the only way to reach the goal. They will provide benefit and progress until a certain level is reached, where something more would be needed to make further progress, but for many they might be completely sufficient for one life time. I dont have a personal agenda, other than to present all the views. I understand that Hindu view on the practices of Yogi Bhajan is not positive in certain senses and that this is the reason for the conflict that we have editing this page. For this reason, you would like to see a part of the Hindu view erased and hidden. One way or the other, both views must remain public because both come with sufficient background and weight so that they deserved to be published. If they are conflicting, it is not our job or the job of Wiki to decide who is right. All have the right to present their points, even if conflicting. Atmapuri (talk) 08:40, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

OK. You are wrong here on several points. Again...

It is on you to prove the "copyright of Yoga" by one religion or that "God gave yoga to man" and this is the only authentic form of yoga. The essential problem with this argument is that is is a BELIEF. For the purposes of the WIKIpedia, you need a verifiable source. Since this unverifiable, it has no place on this site. You can say that all you want on a blog or other forum, but here it must be verified. Your only argument is that India, and a God, copyrighted on Yoga and Asana. Yet Yoga has been passed on from man to woman to man to be shared for all, and it doesn't belong to one man or religion or god. It has evolved as it grew, through texts and over the years passed on by word of mouth and updated constantly. Yoga is always evolving. It is the nature of Yoga. You can trace this back to the Veda, Upanishads, Patanjali's Sutras, and Kundalini Shastras, but you cannot ever trace it back to a God. Sorry, as nice as that would be, it is actually truly scary thinking. This is how wars are started by ignorance and bigotry of this level. In this thinking, you could say I suppose that Hindu God has a copyright on man as well... So, therefore any Hindu can kill any other person without repercussion because Hindus were here "first" and any other human is just an incorrect copyright violation. Sorry, but this logic will never hold up on any level, neither legal, nor spiritual. However, if you can prove that a Hindu God gave Yoga to man, and some original copy of it exists somewhere, cite the proof.--Fatehji (talk) 16:44, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

2- Again you are mistaking "kundalini energy" with "kundalini yoga". In this syndrome page when they mention "kudanlini" they are specifically NOT talking about "kundalini yoga". Get your facts straight. Open your eyes. "Kundalini energy" and Kundalini Yoga are not interchangeable terms, so keep your reference to "kundalini syndrome" off of this page. Last I will say about it.

3- You said Yogi Bhajan came from a Sikh Background but was not representative of Sikh? Really? Let me educate you: "A deeply devoted Sikh, his inspiration and example motivated thousands to embrace the Sikh way of life. Through his personal efforts, Sikh Dharma was legally incorporated and officially recognized as a religion in the USA in 1971. In 1971, in acknowledgment of his extraordinary impact of spreading the universal message of Sikhism, the president of the SGPC (governing body of Sikh Temples in India), Sant Charan Singh called him the Siri Singh Sahib, Chief Religious and Administrative Authority for the Western Hemisphere, and he was given the responsibility to create a Sikh Ministry in the West by the Akal Takhat, the Sikh seat of religious authority in Amritsar, India. He was honored with the title Bhai Sahib by the Akal Takhat in 1974." - You can check it with the Akal Takhat.

4- You claim anything available today doesn't cover 1% of what's secret. really? again, show your proof. Sir John Woodroffe translated the ENTIRE Kundalini Shastras to English in the 19th century. Again, The entire sastras are available in printed form in English - that means 100%. Anything that is still secret his passed on from teacher to student, and Yogi bhajan went to many many teachers and got their secret information and passed it on. So, I would actually say Yogi Bhajan teachings compromise the entire Sastras plus his secrets - probably 99% of the system. Maybe 1% is actually UNKNOWN, or something that he didn't feel appropriate to teach (like the tongue cutting practice, for example) to Westerners. Finally, he became a Master of Kundalini Yoga at age 16. To say that his mastery came with only 1% of knowledge of Kundalini is not based in any kind of reality. As a Master, this implies 100% knowledge and experience.

5- Finally, you have clearly admitted that your view is tainted by Hindu view on Yogi Bhajan. The truth is revealed, even though it was clear to me right from the beginning. Now you admit that the "reason for this conflict" is "negative hindu view of yogi bhajan". As they say in the courtroom, "I rest my case, your honor". Additionally, you have stated clearly your bigoted and elitist viewpoint that when one religion is "bigger" than naturally it has the right of presenting something as more important. This could not be further from the truth, although I have never moved your Hindu references or erased them, even though your sources are very primary and not properly legitimate. At the same time, you have erased reference to Sikhism numerous times. Again, all religions are EQUAL. Size does not imply RIGHT.

Don't claim you want to represent ALL views either, when it's clear you are simply coming from one view point. Your words are important, don't keep writing stuff that simply isn't true - especially about yourself. You will have to live through the mud of your communication, so don't spoil it today. Your words live on forever, especially here on Misplaced Pages.Fatehji (talk) 14:15, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

FINALLY and LAST WORD, I am not changing your "edits" (or actually, they are not edits, rather simply you just re-post the same thing every time), because of "conflicting views". I am changing them because they are simply not relevant, poorly sourced, and do not add to the topic. It makes no sense to reference a negative single view at the top of the page when this is one small, tiny view or issue which has an unprofessional reference material source. Additionally you do not do any service to Misplaced Pages by enforcing what you have admitted to, as your "negative view of Yogi Bhajan", and I have tried to correct the negative bias out of your "edits". Plus, you do not address my points appropriately in reply to talk back discussion as to the validity of your edits, so therefore, I will continue to improve and correct them. Fatehji (talk) 15:01, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

My view of Yogi Bhajan positive for all the good things he did. Atmapuri (talk) 17:37, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

You are continuing to misunderstand what this Encyclopedia is about and how to edit properly, as well as the purpose and scope of references. You have changed back AGAIN, for perhaps the 20th time to the EXACT same sentence which I have rebuffed over and over again in discussions and comments. You are clearly not interested in reaching a consensus with me on this matter. I have shown again and again why your edit was changed, and have added to it, and helped shape it into a better description. You seem to think that once a "reference" is created, it cannot be changed. WRONG! Sorry, but this is not about quoting or directly transposing ideas from one book onto this page. It's an editing process with many people contributing and reaching a consensus to make an article more legitimate and clear. That doesn't mean once you reference something that other editors cannot add onto it to clarify or expand to your edits if it adds to an understanding of the topic. Clearly you have not read the citation and source guides on Misplaced Pages. Please read and study this before you make any more changes. You need to read these: and and --Fatehji (talk) 18:59, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

The main problem is you started this and you tried to remove and water down problems related to the certain practices of Kundalini Yoga. Edits can be expanded, but not in conflict with the meaning in the reference. You can not say, water is pure and dirty at the same time. We can reach a consensus, if you agree to include the reference to "mental damage" and link "Kundalini Syndrome" in the beginning of the article. You have to understand that the paragraph you are attacking, is a rather mild version from the original source and already very much adapted. The point is that traditional Hinduism obviously does not agree with Yogi Bhajan's teachings, at least as you presented them, and that we have to find a way to include both views. There is no consensus possible in the sense of presenting only one combined viewpoint, because the differences are too big. The Wiki references you mention apply to you the same way as they apply to me. All the sources in the paragraph are verifiable and reliable in the context of the subject of this article. If you agree, I can also include direct quotes from the book's.Atmapuri (talk) 20:11, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Atma, I am not attacking your "references" nor am I trying to water anything down. In fact, the main dispute is over that I am trying to correct what you have hyped up. I don't understand why you propose this view, but it's not relevant to Kundalini yoga as a primary concern. You may disagree, so I have posted additional references to show that this view is not definitive by any means. I am adding to the paragraph with other references from Hindu teachers - on the same par as your reference's source. You have no right to strike one teachers down, while you revert to solely your own teachers's views. There's a name for this, and it's not "BS", but it's close.

So this is not by any means as you claim "in conflict with the meaning in reference" (whatever that means). It's a new source that expands upon it and offers a different view. You make it sound and (from your actions) appear like once you have added a source, that that is the final word, and no other sources can refute or add to this claim. That's mighty egotistic of you. And if it is in conflict, and disputes it, perhaps then you should consider that the entire argument, if it is debatable should not be posted right up in the front of the page, but moved down to its own section. Only legitimate claims should be presented in the article as a whole, but certainly in the top of the page, it's essential to provide a neutral view that can be agreed upon. But for some reason, you don't want to hear any different view, so you removed my references 5 times in one day to the exact same edit you have been running since Jan 18th - over a week ago. Your history shows you don't seem interested in compromise or consensus (nor do you really understand it). This should get you blocked and it also got the page blocked. Great going. Now what will you do? We're supposed to work this out by Feb 3rd, and you haven't changed one inch since Jan 18th. Actually, I'd rather get a third party to look at it. Until you can demonstrate change, I believe you've exhausted your range of input into this topic.--Fatehji (talk) 21:20, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Request for verification and clean up of disputed content

This template must be substituted. Hi guys. Thanks for all your great work. It's really appreciated.

Sorry to bring this to your doorstep, but I have an ongoing dispute situation with a user Atmapuri over the content presented at the top of the Kundalini Yoga page. Needless to say we got carried away and the page is now blocked until Feb 3rd. My main gripe with this editor is that is an edit warrior - he has done so in his past, and he has not demonstrated an ability of working towards consensus or how to properly reference and edit sentences or concepts. He has reverted numerous edits to his same exact edits, and I have reported him for making 12 or more identical reversions in 8 days (5 of which were today). Additionally, his single point of reference material is primary source.

The big issue for now is that the editor in question is determined to link "kundalini yoga" with "kundalini syndrome". The second point is that he would like to link practice of the form with "permanent mental damage". It's bad enough that he wants to keep this reference up top, but it's also a complete error in linking the two together. "kundalini syndrome" refers to kundalini energy, and not to the yoga form. Check the page yourself. Even the "kundliani syndrome" page as a whole is marked as unprofessional (needing professional validation). Basically, he is giving this form of yoga a bad name, while referencing and citing material that is tenuous at best. And when I have added in material to refute this, or offer an alternative view, he has straight up deleted my references and citations, while commenting "If you want to change something add your own text and reference." Needless to say, it's been difficult.

My request is, can you give a third party review of this and establish that, on the grounds that "Kundalini Syndrome" refers to a spiritual energy source that can be "spontaneously generated", or "awoken" through any number of spiritual practices, it therefore has no definitive linking with any one style of Yoga. And as such, I propose that:

• A) Kundalini Yoga is not linked to "Kundalini Syndrome" in word or reference.
• B) Since "Kundalini Syndrome" itself in a non-professional term with dubious scientific value or validation, that it not be considered a valid reference source (internally) for topics of this nature (otherwise all yoga forms, Qi Gong, and martial arts would also need this "warning").
• C) That "Kundalini Syndrome" is only speaking about Kundalini energy, and not directly with the Yoga form by the same name.
• D) And finally, strike all references to "Kundalini Syndrome" from the Kundalini Yoga pages under the fact that it is misleading, negative and erroneous.

• E) Additionally, his use of a primary source material for a reference to the practice of the style leading to "permanent brain damage" is from an unscientific and opinion based source, and unreliable because the author would have a conflict of interest, in that his business as a teacher might suffer if people were to go to learn yoga from a source not lead by a "master yogi". Many sources, such as the ones I have added numerous times show that Kundalini Yoga is completely safe, very healing, and can even used for curing mental conditions (not causing them) when practiced correctly by oneself, or under a master teacher.

Thanks for your attention to this matter, it will be really helpful to have a 3rd party review from a knowledgeable source.

--Fatehji (talk) 21:46, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

References

1. Swami Sivananda Radha, Kundalini Yoga for the West, timeless, 2004, pages 13, 15, 23
2. David Shannahoff-Khalsa, Kundalini Yoga Meditation for Complex Psychiatric Disorders: Techniques Specific for Treating the Psychoses, Personality, and Pervasive Development Disorders, 2010
3. David Shannahoff-Khalsa, Kundalini Yoga Meditation: Techniques Specific for Psychiatric Disorders, Couples Therapy, and Personal Growth, 2007
4. Congressional Honorary Resolution 521 US Library of Congress

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