Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Jfdwolff (talk | contribs) at 21:04, 2 May 2004 (=List of rabbis picture=). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Hello there IZAK, welcome to the 'pedia! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. If you ever need editing help visit Misplaced Pages:How does one edit a page and experiment at Misplaced Pages:Sandbox. If you need pointers on how we title pages visit Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions or how to format them visit our manual of style. If you have any other questions about the project then check out Misplaced Pages:Help or add a question to the Village pump. BTW, thanks for starting the Aryeh Kaplan - I "wikified" it for you. Cheers! --maveric149

Ok, thank you. I am reading thru the "guidelines". Thanks for your feed-back. User:IZAK

Hi IZAK. Can I just check that you know how to do a redirect? It's just that I've corrected a couple that you've created. To create a redirect, type #REDIRECT ] with no return. -- Graham  :) | Talk 22:58, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)

IZAK, I moved your Mormon Israelites section to the Mormonism article. Thanks a bunch for the contribution! Tom (hawstom) 21:59, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

IZAK, I am told this contribution of yours needs to go in the Mormonism and Judaism article, but I am too lazy to put it there myself. Would it be too much of an imposition to ask you to do it? Tom (hawstom) 04:59, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Mormon Israelites

Some branches of Mormonism, as well as other modern religions, maintain that their members are Israelites. Most prominently the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) holds that those who are baptized by a Latter-day Saint (LDS) Priesthood authority become an Israelite and thereby become one of God's chosen people by covenanting with God in baptism. By being confirmed as a member of the LDS Church and given the "gift" of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, a member is said to become an "adopted" Israelite, whether or not there are biological relations to ancient Israelites.

One popular doctrine in Mormonism is that ten lost tribes of Israel exist in the form of their Gentile descendents, and in the future they will gather in the Americas and establish a new Zion. The tenth Article of Faith of the LDS Church states, "We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes". The LDS Church maintains that this is actually occuring in the current day, as people are converted. This is discussed in more detail in the article on the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. See also Mormonism and Judaism.

Did so as you requested. IZAK

Yet again I am finding myself clearing up all your redirects after you. Have you actually read the message I left for you above? -- Graham  :) | Talk 03:18, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Dear Graham, Thanks for the good work. Sorry, I do seem to have overlooked the finer points of the "redirects"! Thanks for bringinging this to my attention. IZAK

Hi IZAK,

I'd appreciate it if you were more careful with edit summaries. A recent edit summary of yours to Jew made it sound as you though were an admin asking others to limit links in the Conservative section to 3. First of all, I don't believe you are an admin (unless I missed something completely). Second of all, admins aren't anybody special -- we just handle extra tasks. We certainly shouldn't ever, as a principle of Wikiquette, throw our weight around by saying "I, as an admin, tell you to do this" -- that wouldn't be right. And if you're saying that, whether or not you're an admin, you're giving the impression to others that admins can do this: not good. I'm assuming you just misspoke, but I really hope you'll try to avoid this in the future. It reflects badly on the work we do here when we mislead others, especially when we mislead them about our personal rights and powers. Thanks, Jwrosenzweig 20:38, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I've looked at things a little more -- it appears you were following Raul's request. Don't worry too much about it, but (for the reasons above) please do avoid it in the future! Thanks. :-) Jwrosenzweig 20:41, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Hi Jw, as you see, I have not tried to be an "admin". In the brief few words alloted to a summary, I was conveying to someone else the message that there HAD been a request from an admin person to cut links down. Sometimes you can't "win"... :-) IZAK

pro-Nazi Arabs such as Anwar Sadat were imprisoned

Hi IZAK -- It's a pretty serious allegation that Anwar Sadat was "pro-Nazi" as opposed to "anti-British" -- do you have some citations that are pretty clear that he was a supporter of the Nazis? Thanks, BCorr|Брайен 03:22, Apr 21, 2004 (UTC)

HI Bcorr: I am surprised you do not know this piece of important history. See even the source Mustafaa cites says clearly: "...And finally, the young Sadat admired Adolf Hitler whom the anticolonialist Sadat viewed as a potential rival to British control..." IZAK 04:39, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

See some important examples from the web:

• Islam’s Nazi Connections :"...Major Nazi sympathizers of this era include Ahmed Shukairi, the first chairman of the PLO; Gamal Abdel Nasser and Anwar Sadat, future presidents of Egypt; and the founders of the Pan-Arab socialist Ba'ath party, currently ruling Syria and Iraq. One Ba'ath leader has since recalled of this time: "We were racists, admiring Nazism, reading their books and sources of their thought. We were the first who thought of translating Mein Kampf." Many of the Nazi sympathizers of this era have never repudiated their beliefs; some still openly parade them....Thankfully, the Nazis of course lost WWII and the abortive alliance between Islam and Nazism never panned out. Sadly, there exist Moslems today, not on the fringes but in the mainstream of their nations, who still view this as a great lost opportunity based on profound natural affinities." IZAK 04:39, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

• Islamism, fascism and terrorism : "Islamism, or fascism with an Islamic face, was born with and of the Muslim Brotherhood. It proved (and improved) its fascist core convictions and practices through collaboration with the Nazis in the run-up to and during World War II. It proved it during the same period through its collaboration with the overtly fascist "Young Egypt" (Misr al-Fatah) movement, founded in October 1933 by lawyer Ahmed Hussein and modeled directly on the Hitler party, complete with paramilitary Green Shirts aping the Nazi Brown Shirts, Nazi salute and literal translations of Nazi slogans. Among its members, Young Egypt counted two promising youngsters and later presidents, Gamal Abdel Nasser and Anwar El-Sadat. Whether al-Banna, who had already been in contact with German agents since the 1936-39 Palestine uprising against the British, or someone else introduced Sadat and his free officer comrades to German military intelligence is not known. But in the summer of 1942, when Rommel's Afrikakorps stood just over 100 kilometers from Alexandria and were poised to march into Cairo, Sadat, Nasser and their buddies were in close touch with the German attacking force and - with Brotherhood help - preparing an anti-British uprising in Egypt's capital. A treaty with Germany including provisions for German recognition of an independent, but pro-Axis Egypt had been drafted by Sadat, guaranteeing that "no British soldier would leave Cairo alive". When Rommel's push east failed at El Alamein in the fall of 1942, Sadat and several of his co-conspirators were arrested by the British and sat out much of the remainder of the war in jail...." IZAK 04:39, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

• Beyond the Pale: Nazism, Holocaust denial and the Arab world :"...When in 1953 a rumour spread that Hitler was still alive, the Egyptian newspaper Al Musawwar asked several leading Egyptian personalities to write him a personal letter. One of those who did so was Anwar Sadat. His message was this: "My dear Hitler! I congratulate you from the bottom of my heart. Even if you appear to have been defeated, in reality you are the victor. You succeeded in creating dissentions between Churchill, the old man, and his allies, the Sons of Satan ... Germany will be reborn in spite of the Western and Eastern powers. There will be no peace unless Germany once again becomes what she was." IZAK 04:39, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

• 1942-1952, Egpyt: Nasser's Nazis and the CIA : "In the summer of 1942, when German General Erwin Rommel’s Afrikakorps were poised to march into Cairo, Anwar Sadat, Gamal Nasser and their buddies were in close touch with the attacking force and – with help from the Muslim Brotherhood – were preparing an anti-British uprising in Egypt’s capital. A treaty with Germany had been drafted by Sadat. It included provisions for German recognition of an independent, but pro-Axis Egypt, and guaranteed that “no British soldier would leave Cairo alive.” When Rommel’s push east failed in the fall of 1942, Sadat and several of his co-conspirators were arrested by the British and sat out much of the remainder of the war in jail. Islamist-fascist collaboration did not cease with war’s end. King Farouk brought large numbers of German military and intelligence personnel as well as ranking ex-Nazis into Egypt as advisors. It was a bad move. Several of the Germans, recognizing Farouk’s political weakness, soon began conspiring with Nasser and his “Free Officers,” who, in turn, were working closely with the Muslim Brotherhood, to overthrow the king..." IZAK 04:39, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

IZAK, thank you for your detailed reply with citations. I have to say that each of them -- such as the http://www.us-israel.org/about/index.shtml -- are very pro-Israel sites, and are not very balanced, IMHO -- and shouldn't be the basis for such strong allegations. I did some searching of my own, and the only citations I could find were eaither very clearly pro-Israel, right wing (like these from Campus Watch and Commentary magazine) were reader reviews of books like The Closed Circle here: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1566634407/002-9789435-4591258?v=glance&vi=customer-reviews -- or were comments left on bulletin boards, etc., like this one from the Seattle Times comment board: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/news/nation-world/mideast/comments.html

Also, the same Asia Times article you quote above goes on to say:

"And yet another player fond of playing all sides against the middle had entered the game prior to Farouk's ouster: In 1951, the CIA's Kermit Roosevelt (grandson of president Teddy, who in 1953 would organize the overthrow of elected Iranian leader Mohammed Mossadegh and install Reza Pahlavi as Shah) opened secret negotiations with Nasser. Agreement was soon reached that the US, post-coup, would assist in building up Egypt's intelligence and security forces - in the obvious manner, by reinforcing Nasser's existing Germans with additional, "more capable", ones. For that, CIA head Allen Dulles turned to Reinhard Gehlen, one-time head of eastern front German military intelligence and by the early 1950s in charge of developing a new German foreign intelligence service. Gehlen hired the best man he knew for the job - former SS colonel Otto Skorzeny, who at the end of the war had organized the infamous ODESSA network to facilitate the escape of high-ranking Nazis to Latin America (mainly Peron's Argentina) and Egypt. With Skorzeny now on the job of assisting Nasser, Egypt became a safe haven for Nazi war criminals galore. The CIA officer in charge of the Egypt assistance program was Miles Copeland, soon a Nasser intimate. "

I'm not denying the fact that both Egyptians and Israelis did everthing they could to expel the British from the Middle East, but so often in wartime, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" -- and even when wars are not raging, there are events like the US-Iran-Israel arms-for-hostages Iran-Contra affair that create strange bedfellows. And if you don't mind, I'm copying this all to Talk:Jew so others can weigh in. Thanks again, BCorr|Брайен 13:19, Apr 21, 2004 (UTC)

Bcorr: As I have responded on the "Jew" page:

Bcorr: We are NOT discussing the CIA here. What they did as part of ESPIONAGE/COUNTERESPIONAGE is a different subject. Your question was about Sadat's pro-Nazi leanings, and I cited the sources. Whether the sources are pro or anti anything is also not the point. The FACT remains that Sadat was a strong admirer of Hitler, the Jews' arch-enemy. IZAK 23:32, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Bcorr: Diplomatic and and political dealings are one thing. All states and vested parties do it. But in the case of Sadat, his life's history proves that not only was he personally positive about Hitler, he also was determined to give the Nazi army under Rommel all the help it needed to enter Egypt. There was no "Israeli" policy to Nazi Germany, as there was no "Israel" until 1947. The MAJORITY of the Jewish population of Palestine was VERY pro-British, and clamored to enter its army to fight AGAINST the Nazis. Whatever minimal contacts there were with German officials was for the purpose of SAVING Jews from Hitler's gas-chambers, and keeping the doors of Palestine OPEN to Jewish immigration during the Holocaust. The Stern Gang acted to PROTEST Britain's closed-door policies, and NOT as a sign of any "liking" for Nazism, unlike Sadat and his cohorts who actually liked and emulated the Nazis. IZAK 23:32, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

If the quotes are correct - though I don't put much confidence in their sources - then Sadat did negotiate with the Nazis, and appreciated their role in attacking other colonial powers. But that does not imply that he supported them, as BCorr pointed out, any more than the fact that early Israel had close relations with the USSR and got many of their weapons from Communist states means they were Stalinists. Mustafaa 17:24, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Mustafa: Sadat did much more than "negotiate" with the Nazis, he liked them and coddled up to them. In contradistinction, remember, during World War Two Stalin was RIGHTLY admired by many Jews for many GOOD reasons: He fought Hitler to the death; Stalin's Red Army, which had over half a million Jewish men and officers in it, were the ones that conquered Berlin and had the pleasure of bringing about HITLER'S DEATH! and the end of the evil Third Reich; indeed, many of Israel's early founders were Socialists and Communists and were close with the USSR, but at the same time they were also ZIONISTS and DEMOCRATS and thus were very wary of Stalin, as he was of them. It was Stalin who thought he could take advantage of these politically vulnerable and ideologically kindred Jews at the founding of the State of Israel, as they needed and accepted his aid AGAINST the Arabs, but the Israelis were always fully commited to DEMOCRACY and opposed Stalin's totalitarianism; (P.S. Stalin's first wife was Jewish, and his brother-in-law, Lazar Kaganovich, an athiestic communist hardliner, was on the Politburo with him till the end. Some have even speculated that it was Lazar Kaganovich who was behind Stalin's death in 1953, when Stalin began to plan the deportation of the the USSR's Jews to Siberia. Silly Stalin!) IZAK 03:14, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

"Silly Stalin"--now there's a vivid phrase! I remember the last days of Stalin, and somehow I could never picture calling him "silly." Especially not to his face, :) Cecropia 03:41, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Dear Cecropia: Yeah, now, 50 years after his death, it's "official", Stalin can be called "silly" as we watch (formerly athiest) Putin shake hands with rabbis and give them awards, (former Soviet anti-Zionists) shaking hands with Israeli diplomats, and (previously communist polticians) opening up Russia to the arch-capitalist "oligarchs" some of whom are Jewish by birth...what a world... IZAK 04:02, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

"The rise of the Baath parties in Syria and Iraq resulted in their large ancient communities fleeing as refugees." This is factually incorrect in two respects: practically the entire Iraqi Jewish community had fled before the rise of the Baath party, as pointed out earlier, and the Jews of Syria were actively prevented from leaving by the Baath Party until 1992. - Mustafaa 17:31, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Mustafa: Playing word games is not an alternative to history. The rise of the Baath parties was a process that took many years. By the time they took over in Iraq many Jews had fled PRECISELY BECAUSE it was the moment they were dreading. Similarly in Syria, it was the actualization of the Jews's worst nightmares as whoever remained were made into prisoners of the state, and that is why so may had tried to flee earlier. It was the OPPOSITE of "spring is in the air" for a very long time for the Middle East's Jews! IZAK 03:14, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

List of rabbis picture

Hi IZAK, compliments on Image:R_Kamenets_&_Kotler.jpg. Am I right in saying that both rabbis still merit an article? Also my compliments for your askonus on Jew; I dropped out of it—even took it off my watchlist—as it got a bit messy. In your view, are there any articles that I ought to watch for infringements of NPOV re: Judaism? I removed a link to "Jewwatch" from the Anti-semitism article yesterday.
JFW | T@lk 08:38, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Hi JFW: Thanks. Yes, they still need articles. as for the "NPOV" I can't think of anything, but if I do, I will try to let you know. IZAK 20:30, 2 May 2004 (UTC)

There's an article on Reb Aharon, but IMHO Reb Yaakov deserves a shtikel. I've just returned his biography to the lender, otherwise I might have had a dab :-(
Did you hear that the Misplaced Pages "Jew" article now peaks at Google instead of Jewwatch?
JFW | T@lk 20:59, 2 May 2004 (UTC)

Imp of Jlem to Jews

Good job. BTW, you may want to add a few entries to the List of Jewish history topics. Shabbat shalom! --Humus sapiens|Talk 01:16, 1 May 2004 (UTC)

Dear "Humus": Thank you, nice to know, I will look over the list...IZAK 20:26, 2 May 2004 (UTC)

We got off on the wrong foot together

Shalom Havarin (is that spelled right?), I am a former Apostate (still pretty agnostic and ignorant in my outlook) of maternal Jewish ethnic heritage attempting to make Teshuvah back to orthodoxy, and I just wanted to appologize for rubbing you the wrong way with my comment on the Talk:Jews page. I just want you to know that I am certainly NOT into any kind of anti-Judaic displacement theology (heaven forbid) and retrieval is one of my primary concerns these days (for the sake of my loved ones). I just hope we can recover from our false start together. All the best. Zestauferov 12:26, 1 May 2004 (UTC) (p.s. what is your timezone?)