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Talk:Rick Warren

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Do not remove the links to the critiques, please.

RICK WARREN is a deceptive "wolf in sheep's clothing" bringing destructive heresies and false teachings into the church, scattering the sheep. He does not need promoting in any size, shape, or form, he needs to be thoroughly exposed. 100 links to outside critiques into what he is doing would not be enough. Rick Warren should not even be on Misplaced Pages. Do your research into what the man is all about. He is full of pride and arrogance and on an ego trip bulding his very own Purpose Driven® country, Rwanda in Africa. As someone said, the article on here @ Misplaced Pages about Rick Warren is like one big advertisment for Rick Warren and his Purpose Driven® empire. Do NOT CUT the external links to the Critiques, please. People have the right to know how Rick Warren twists and distorts the Bible, the truth and many other things, to promote his ideas on how things should be run, even the church. He wants to be known as the man who brought about a "second reformation." The only thing Rick Warren is bringing about is a "de-formation." He wants to redefine the whole of Christianity to his way thinking and of doing things. Tragic. He is deceiving millions upon millions of people around the world. Is he another Jim Jones? Bringing about eternal spiritual death? Fides Viva 20:26, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

A Major Revision

This page needs major revisions to conform to Misplaced Pages standards (and the problems are not just limited to NPOV issues). Here are my suggestions as to what should be changed. Hopefully, this can start a discussion.

1) In general, better organization. The entire first section (before "The P.E.A.C.E. Plan") can be organized into a brief overview section, and a (choronological) biography section.

2) Cut the P.E.A.C.E. plan section. One sentence stating that Dr. Warren created the P.E.A.C.E. plan is good enough. Then either link to a separate Misplaced Pages article or to http://www.peace.gs/ if a reader wants more information. This will also get rid of some of the more eggregious fawning sentences ("Rick Warren is passionate about finding solutions to the world's biggest problems." I don't doubt that he is, but is it really necessary to include this in an encylopedia article?).

3) Cut the Work in Rwanda section. Again, one or two sentences will suffice.

4) Cut the Media Quotes section.

5) Expand The Purpose Driven Network section by moving some of the earlier information into here. Again, this will help with organization.

6) Cut the External Links to critiques... section. We do not need 30 different links to outside sources. Misplaced Pages articles are not collections of links. If a reader wants to find more information on Rick Warren, he/she can Google him. The five links currently under External links are good enough.

7) If there are outspoken detractors of Dr. Warren, use one or two sentences to give readers a general overview on the common criticisms leveled at his ideas.

Thoughts?

--69.28.2.225 16:02, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Rick Warren's Critics

this whole article appears to be an ad

Should it be referenced like that?

  • Although Dr. Warren has many followers, his Purpose Driven teaching has given rise to many critics as well. Prominent names such as John F. MacArthur and Dave Hunt to name a few. Might it be prudent to discuss the opposition? Or is that too controversial?
  • I deleted the critics section, it had poor grammar and poor quality, and only expressed the opinion of a tiny minority and cited a small site. I agree that the Rick Warren page needs a lot of work, but this section was not going anywhere as-is. Clearly Rick Warren faces oppositions and critics, so someone may re-write the section, preferably from scratch, with a good source or two, NPOV, and reasonable grammar.

I am not a detractor, but language such as Warren is "not a pretentious person who seeks the limelight, he quietly goes about his workis hardly objective. --SonPraises 02:05, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't have a lot of free research time

I have heard, but am currently unable to cross reference/verify, that Rick Warren has been able to repay his church his entire salary, and that he works as a 'volunteer pastor' using his book as his income. Do you think this would be relevant to the entry?

Ricks Salary

Here are the facts that have been widely known. Every Saddleback Church member could confirm this:

1. Rick and Kay Warren give 90% of their income to charity, and live on 10%. Do you know ANYONE else this generous? They started tithing 10% when then were married 30 years ago. Each year of their marriage they raised it at least 1%, in order to grow in generousity and, in the Warren's words, "break the grip of materialism, by being more and more generous." After 30 years of marriage they give 90% away.

2. When Purpose Driven Life became the best selling book in the world (for the past 3 years) they made 4 decisions:

A) To not change their lifestyle at all. They still live in their same house and Rick Warren still drives a 4 year old Ford.

B) Rick stopped taking a salary from Saddleback Church.

C) They paid back all that the church had paid in salary over 25 years.

D) They set up 3 Foundations: one to help people with HIV/AIDS, one to continue to train leaders around the world, and one for the global P.E.A.C.E plan.

More Critics

This article is completely one sided and it is unacceptable how no one is challenging it.

  • You are entitled to your opinion. No one's asking you to pal around with Rick Warren. What you state is news to me. I'd love to see the citations from what you say. . . so let's see 'em, you of only one edit (I've checked)! --avnative 04:32, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
  • The only thing I am guilty of is maintaining the integrity of the Misplaced Pages site. If someone comes to this site wanting to read about Rick Warren they deserve to hear all sides, Not Just Yours. So instead of replacing other peoples information with whatever biases you may have, maybe be a little more objective in your writing and be sympathetic to the fact that you may not have all the answers.
I do very much appreciate a citation such as what was just added from another perspective. That's what I was looking for! I never said I had all the answers. . . and believe it or not, I have a high interest in maintaining the integrity of the Misplaced Pages site as well. Yes, I admit to having biases. . . that's the nature of fallen humanity, of which you and I are a part of. However, with all due respect, I have contributed to this article with as unbiased an eye as I know how (and in the wide diverse groups I deal with on a regular basis, I am not known as a biased person).
It's fair IMHO to have a paragraph on detractors/critics of Rick Warren. Everyone has 'em. But to make the article tilt in content towards his detractors, especially without sources cited, is out of line, IMHO. He generally has a favorable acceptance within a variety of Christian groups, and unless that changes (major scandal or the like) the balance of article content I think is best to stay as it now is - with your recent input and mine (and other reputable Wikipedians). This is a collaborative article, and I look forward to working collaboratively with all reputable Wikipedians, regardless of their beliefs or lack of them. So let's bury the hatchet, OK? --avnative 18:39, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

P.E.A.C.E plan?

The "P.E.A.C.E." plan was just recently launched by Saddleback Church.

It is designed to address 5 different "global giants":

  • Spiritual Emptiness - P.lant churches
  • Egocentric Leaders - E.quip servant leaders
  • Extreme Poverty - A.ssist the poor
  • Disease - C.are for the sick
  • Illiteracy and lack of education - E.ducate the next generation

It currently involves litterally tens of thousands of people, and will eventually include millions. Just the number of people that are/will be affected and involed in the PEACE movement alone makes it very significant, so there should be something mentioned about it here, and/or on the Saddleback Church page, and the PEACE plan itself should have its own article. What title should it have?

Serious concerns with

Lists of purpose cause us to lose our delight and our enjoyment of God. We are to ultimately delight ourselves in what God has already done for us in Christ, not constantly delight ourselves in what we have done for God. - From The Person of Christ-Driven Life by Charles R. Biggs

  • Rick Warren has let the WHOLE world know that he paid back his WHOLE salary back to Saddleback, that he "reverse tithes", pays 90% tithes instead of 10%, but how much money is he paid in "royalties" from the sale of all his Purpose Driven® trade marked products? One million a year? 20 million a year? If he gave 90% of one million dollars he would still be making $100,000 dollars a year. A nice income! If he gave 90% on say $20,000,000 million a year he would make $2,000,000 a year which is a very tidy sum of money for one family indeed! He was given a tax free housing allowance from Saddleback, has he paid all that back as well? Does he still claim that tax free housing allowance each year? Why let every one know that he drives a four year old vehicle, is that supposed to make him sound humble or something? Rick Warren is always boasting in what he is doing. Why let the whole world know about the three foundations he and his wife Kay set up? What's that prove? Does he get tax breaks from them as well? Does he let everyone know about *ALL* the other "perks" he receives? Like flights all over the world? His trips to Africa and England and where ever? Tanks full of petrol for their vehicles, including his wifes?
  • Warren calls SBC withdrawal from BWA a 'silly' mistake, but in actual fact it wasn't, and so he writes out a $25,000 dollar check for the "BWA" letting everyone know he has done so and goes on in the article about all the other things he does and how well he and his products are doing! It says in the article above: "Fielding a question about claims that The Purpose Driven Life comes across as an adulation of men, Warren responded, “I don’t know how it could be an adulation of man when the first sentence of the book is, ‘It’s not about you.’ The whole book is, ‘It is all about God.’“" He is not telling the truth because on un-numbered page 5 of "The Purpose Driven Life"tm he says: "This book is dedicated to you." From there on in it IS all about you, how to find your S.H.A.P.E., your purpose, your life metaphor, not missing the point of your life, how to be guided to greatness, God's amazing plan for you-both here and now, and for eternity, the blueprint for Christian living in the 21st century so on and so forth. The book is all about finding YOUR purpose but he says it is God's purpose for your life. At the end of each chapter Rick Warren has put a box with the Day number and underneath, these words: "Thinking About My Purpose." Not "Thinking About God's Purpose/Purposes" but "Thinking About My Purpose." Even though Rick Warren says it is not about you, the whole book is centered around YOU and what God can do for YOU. YOU, is the central character mentioned throughout the book, far more than God or the LORD Jesus Christ. The whole book is focused on man and what God can do for man.

There is no clear presentation of the gospel in any of Rick Warren's writings or videos or audios. There is no teaching of those who live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution, trials and tribulations in Rick Warren's messages. There is no denying of self, dying to self and taking up your cross in Rick Warren's teachings. There is no warning to flee the wrath of God that is coming in Rick Warren's preaching. He not only preaches another gospel which is no gospel at all, he doesn't preach the gospel at all!

He posts on his own website those who give him glory and praise in what he is doing and what a Mr. all-round-nice-guy he is but he does not let a soul know that he HAS twisted and tortured and distorted God's Holy Word, some verses taken completely out of context and even shortened and the use of paraphrases that are just plain wrong. He has craftily used proof texts to prop up his own interpretations and ideas, using 15 or so translations and paraphrases.

  • The Weekly Standard - "...clearly among the two or three most influential Americans working from the West Coast." (Jan. 29, 2003)
  • Books and Culture - "Rick Warren's Saddleback is America's most fascinating megachurch." Alan Wolfe, Boisi Center for American Public Life (Dec. 2003)
  • Forbes - "Were it a business, Saddleback Church would be compared with Dell, Google or Starbucks." (Feb 16, 2004)
  • Christianity Today - named Warren "The Most Influential Pastor in America." (Cover story, Nov. 8, 2002)
  • Fox News - "Warren's 40 Days of Purpose has sparked a nationwide spiritual revival... It has given churches a strategy for reaching the disenchanted." (Nov. 19, 2003)
  • Denver Post - "Purpose Driven Life: The book that inspired a movement." (Front page, Nov.3, 2003)
  • New Man Magazine -"The most influential pastor in America." (Cover, Feb. 2003)
  • Church Executive Magazine - "# 8 in a list of the 50 Most Influential Christians in America" - after President Bush, Attorney Gen. Ashcroft, Justice O'Connor, Billy Graham.
  • Ministries Today - "One of 20 Top Influencers of the Church Today." (Jan. 2003)

I thought when one gives or does something as a Christian that this is what the attitude should be:

“Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.” – Matthew 6:1-4

Has Rick Warren been blowing his own trumpet so loudly for so long that people have become deaf?

Does Rick Warren give all the glory to God alone?

To the post above: what the FOXTROT?

Where is the basis for these so-called 'allegations' of yours? Do you have any proof other than the fact that Rick Warren isn't a fascist like yourself?

I'll admit, I have been very disgusted with Christianity for a while now, but people like Rick give me hope that maybe, just MAYBE, God doesn't hate me. It is people like you who make me think otherwise.

Anyway, that being said, maybe we need to clean up this article just a little bit for visual reasons, and possibly remove some minor POV things, but to be honest this article is not horridly biased, only a bit so.

Tobias 04:53, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Criticism should apply to Warren's church

The following quote was removed:

"Of all the trends I've observed, the explosion of the "seeker"-centered megachurches is one of the most disturbing. Mega- churches in America have become absurd to the point where satire is almost impossible. Starbucks franchises and Christian tattoo parlors are now on church property. Rappers, hula praise dancers, contortionists, acupuncturists, liposuctionists, the side show of evangelicalism has an ever expanding cast of performers. The future of evangelicalism is here and it comes as an Elvis impersonator. Worse, in a quest for what's real, false teaching is entering through the traditions of the East, like meditation and yoga in the new Emergent church movement." - Slice of Laodicea

This quote does not describe Warren's church. There are no tattoo parlors or contortionists or acupunturists or even liposuctionists on the church property. They do have a coffee shop but I don't believe it is a Starbucks franchise. Although Starbucks is including a quote from The Purpose-Driven Life book on their coffee cups. RonCram 22:22, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Copyright violation

Large parts of the text of this articles are taken straight from http://www.rickwarren.com/. That is a clear copyright violation. This article is in need of severe redacting. — Kbh3talk 02:19, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Could you please be specific? There is a procedure to follow for copyvios.
The link you quote is to a front page, with very little text. Please relate a section of the article to the URL from which the text is copied. I'll take it from there. Andrewa 17:35, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Advert notice

I've added the {{advert}} tag at the top. The tone of this article is entirely off. And given that a large part is taken directly from his website, which properly advertises him and his organization, it is inarguably advertising. And that is improper on Misplaced Pages. Please do not remove the advert tag until the article meets Misplaced Pages standards. — Kbh3talk 02:25, 30 December 2005 (UTC)