Talk:Xenu - Misplaced Pages

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"The most sober and enlightening text about the Xenu myth is probably the anonymous article on Misplaced Pages ..." — Rothstein, Mikael (2009), "'His name was Xenu. He used renegades. ...' – Aspects of Scientology's Founding Myth", in Lewis, James R. (ed.), Scientology, Oxford University Press, USA, p. 371, ISBN 0195331494

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Gregory K. Fritz (July 11, 2005). "Awakening to Scientology". The Providence Journal.
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Simon Dumenco (July 11, 2005). "A MEDIA-STUDIES POP QUIZ". Advertising Age.
John Bice (2005). "A 21st Century Rationalist in Medieval America".
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FAQ for Talk Page readers

Xenu / Xemu additions

Regarding , I do not doubt info from Operation Clambake, but let us try to stick to independent reliable secondary sources for additions of new material to this article please. Cirt (talk) 09:27, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

I won't edit war but I don't understand your reversion as Operation Clambake present: OT III Scholarship Page was the source of my material and you say Operation Clambake is a reliable surce. Proxima Centauri (talk) 10:10, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes but can you present other corroborating sources? That would be the best way to go. Cirt (talk) 10:11, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Xenu (Xemu) in Scientology could be helpful. Proxima Centauri (talk) 10:52, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Not an WP:RS source, and I think that is a replica of some page at xenu.net anyways. Cirt (talk) 11:17, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

You seem to know what is an acceptable source better than I do, please find one. Proxima Centauri (talk) 12:33, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm not a Scietologist, having been crudely rejected by them long ago but later rewarded with a friendly audience with Hubbard in his office on Hollywood Blvd and in his airstream elsewhere, I think. The Xenu page strikes me as revealing that a lot of hard feelings by former members and affiliates are being jumped on by the opportunistic press and that this bad press is what concerns the religious leaders. I think if the press were friendlier, the current leaders would be more open about such things as are discussed here. This fact should be mentioned in the end of the article. The media in this country has become very propogandistic, not that it wasn't already, being so opportunistic as it is. It loves bad news and this is one reason Catholic pedophilia is big news. The public free press has always had little to do with the truth and much to do with what people want to hear. If Hubbard had to be colorful, it is understandable. That he had had a caffiene habit it would have gotten him in a whole lot of trouble in a few years from now had he lived to experience it ... everyman is on the cross; it's an idea and a symbol much older than christianity itself. BTW, I'm catholic but didn't live through the old style catholicism Hubbard had to live through as a child. It's amazing he was as clearspoken as he was. He should have been completely screwed up and digging ditches for a living after his childhood praying for his freckles and green eyes to go away, I've read somewhere. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.171.5.75 (talk) 22:53, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

DC-8s without the fans.

DC-8 engines are called fanjets became they use giant fans to force air into the combustion chamber. Hubbard probably meant that the space ships had rocket engines, in place of jets. The basic difference is that rockets carry their own oxidant, instead of sucking in air.Isaac Rabinovitch (talk) 21:15, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Nice idea, but note that Hubbard corrects himself - "the DC8 had fans, propellers on it." Jet planes of any kind do not have propellers, obviously. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:44, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

My guess is that Hubbard was near an airport or looked up in the sky, and saw a DC8, and decided it would be a nice prop for his science fiction book. Yep, that's it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.232.172 (talk) 03:50, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Sciologos, 4 May 2010

{{editsemiprotected}} Scientific support for the OT III story

In the K-Pg boundary (65 million years ago) shocked quartz and iridium have been found all over the world. Shocked quartz appear only at nuclear and meteorite craters and iridium exist in heightened levels in volcanoes and in meteorites. Scientists believe that a giant meteorite created the heightened levels of shocked quartz and iridium, but it could theoretically also be linked to nuclear bombs in volcanoes. 65 million years ago (K-Pg boundary) and 75 million years ago (Xenu) is not so far from each other considering the overall time span. Hubbard published OT III in 1967 but the heightened levels of iridium was found in 1980.

This template must be substituted. 08:35, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Tim Pierce (talk) 19:43, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Sources:

Shocked quartz: http://www.scn.org/~bh162/shocked_quartz.html

Iridium source1: http://www2.fluoridealert.org/Pollution/Volcanoes/Hawaii-Iridium-Enrichment-in-Airborne-Particles-from-Kilauea-Volcano-January-1983

Iridium source 2: http://en.wikipedia.org/Iridium

K-T layer: http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/education/events/cowen1b.html

Alvarez found iridium layer 1980: http://en.wikipedia.org/Alvarez_hypothesis

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.225.243.112 (talk) 12:05, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for offering sources. After reviewing the article I think I'm still not sure about what exactly you want changed. This doesn't seem to be an article about the truth or fiction of the OT III story. Can you explain more precisely what changes you think should be made? Tim Pierce (talk) 15:05, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

I do not want to change anything, I want to add the above material with a separate headline "Scientific support for the OT III story" since the Xenu story is generally regarded as sci-fi mumbo-jumbo totally made up by Hubbard. I'm trying to find some scientific evidence for his claims and have found the above which is pretty interesting. I think it's important as objective verification evidence against the general belief that the Xenu story is totally made up. Many Scientologists apparently think its true from my understanding. Scientific evidence for such a wild story should be regarded as important. We're all looking for the truth. Misplaced Pages strives toward improving the world and offering several perspectives and multiples of scientific evidence, right?

There's A LOT of information in the article that "doesn't seem to be an article about the truth or fiction of the OT III story", e.g. South Park etc.

I'm just trying to be scientific and objective about these things, offering multiple perspectives for the reader to ponder. By the way, the K-T boundary is called K-Pg boundary nowadays. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.225.243.112 (talk) 15:49, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Ok, I have read your sources and your argument for their inclusion. Unfortunately the articles themselves make no reference to Scientology, Xenu, the existence of these volcano's 75 million years ago or hydrogen bombs. This would be WP:SYNTH (the same rule that keeps out sources that reference the accepted age of the volcano's cited by Hubbard ). If you can find a WP:RS which both states what the above articles argue and ties it to the Xenu story then it can be included.Coffeepusher (talk) 13:44, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I see on your profile that you work on South Park and Scientology articles. Not particularly independent. I would prefer another "judge" that has nothing to do with Scientology, Anonymous, Freezone, South Park etc at all. I read about the WP:SYNTH but comparing "UN and 160 wars" is something else in this case. Basically what you (or rather Misplaced Pages) are telling me is that I have to write my own article about this using serious resources, make some serious conclusions, publish it on the Internet and then have somebody else come back and say: "Hey, this articles in itself make references to Scientology, Xenu, the existence of these volcano's 75 million years ago or hydrogen bombs." About the same thing as what I do right now.

It feels like you're being really hard on the rules here. There are many other articles that have more loose conclusions than this but are allowed.

Shocked quartz and iridium are both EXTREMELY rare at the earth's surface, we're not talking about grass and rocks here. Those are TWO INDEPENDENT RARE ELEMENTS at the same time, coming only from asteroids or meteorites, vulcanoes and nuclear weapons. Those articles not being Scientology improves the independency. What would you say if L. Ron Hubbard or the Church of Scientology had written those articles, would that be more appropriate? Striving for sources independent from the Church of Scientology should be regarded as highly important.

Well, I don't know of any such article written so I guess I'm the first. :) A guy called Peter Forde has written "A Scientific Scrutiny of OT 3" and I guess that's where I got the idea of checking these things up. He mentioned shocked quartz and iridium (but only attributed iridium to asteroids) and never investigated more thoroughly where these elements actually could be found, which I did. He did not know (or omitted the fact) that volcanoes emits iridium as well. Some scientists have actually attributed the dinosaur exctinction to large volcanoes due to this.

What is your advice? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.225.242.164 (talk) 14:51, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

For the record, I agree with Coffeepusher: what you propose does seem to conflict with WP:SYNTH. It is true that not every article on Misplaced Pages is held to such a strict standard, but Scientology-related articles are intrinsically under a higher degree of scrutiny due to the controversy that surrounds Scientology wherever it goes.

The only reliable source I can find (not a blog, message forum, etc) that attempts to address the shocked quartz and iridium questions in the context of OT III is http://www.xenu.net/archive/ot/peter_forde.html. I could use that as a reference if you think it will help. Tim Pierce (talk) 17:04, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

What ever works for you. I've done my best to try to provide the evidence. Not much more I can do. Here's a better resource regarding K-T layer describing only two main sources of iridium and discussing "blasted rock": http://web.ukonline.co.uk/a.buckley/dino.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.225.242.164 (talk) 17:29, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I seem to recognize this tone...Justa? Is this IP coming from England?

So, I disagree with you and suddenly I am a bias editor because I am familiar with both scientology AND south park...(and you will also notice that I am familiar with wikipeda policies)??? dude? south park also busted on AA which is another article I edit (as well as the catholic church, and I edit exorcism...participatory democracy and I edit Habermas and public sphere...Obama and I did some stuff with Rhetoric...University of Colorado...yah they busted on everyone) I must be a wikipedia POV FIEND!!!! SOMEBODY BAN ME BEFORE I RUIN WIKIPEDIA WITH THE INTERNATIONAL SOUTH PARK AGENDA!!!!! I believe that is called an ad hominem fallacy otherwise known as the "yah, but you smell funny" retort. In other words who I am and what I edit doesn't matter, you are attempting to preform WP:SYNTH if I was a scientologist, a mason, or a green guy with three arms that came from the center of the earth who told you such, it is still WP:SYNTH OH Oh...wait for it...still WP:SYNTH again. here is my hand in a hat telling you it is WP:SYNTH and he doesn't even watch south park or have a brain, and he is still right, its WP:SYNTH. so my advise is to read the rules and not attack editors who are just letting you know the policies with overly transparent fallacies in logic (some of us got an education and can recognize that crap). Misplaced Pages is not a place to publish new ideas, that is in the rules we all agree upon when we work on this site, get over it.Coffeepusher (talk) 05:02, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

On a main note, I don't think we can use that source because as far as I can tell it is published exclusively on line from a biased site (I seem to remember that same source coming up when an editor tried to insert a section stating that the entire story was completely debunked because the volcano's weren't even in existence according to that article, the article was not a WP:RS due to the fact it was published by a bias source Operation Clambake.Coffeepusher (talk) 05:21, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the source has expressed a pretty strong anti-Scientology bias. I didn't know whether that would preclude us from using it as a source for this article. It is definitely the most careful examination I was able to find of this issue. Tim Pierce (talk) 19:36, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

I have never brought this up on Misplaced Pages before. Amusingly, I must say the tone of Coffeepusher's polemic and sarcastic discussion reminds me of South Park. Asking for an independent judge was not ment to be offensive at all. Scientology is, like Pierce stated, a highly controversial subject and for that reason only I believe the "judges" should have no connection whatsoever to any pro or con Scientology beliefs.

Actually, I have to agree with both of you regarding the WP:SYNTH idea. This is somewhat an "original research" since I concluded the facts from earlier sources and articles. But it is not a wild, far-fetched idea like "methane have been found on both Jupiter and Earth so I make the conclusion they must have been the same planet once in history". My conclusion is pretty much narrowed down. That's why I asked you what you think I should do.

Regarding sources I can found PLENTY of other resources that will state the same thing: Shocked quarts are only found in nuclear and asteroid craters and iridium only comes from volcanoes and asteroids, at least according to current scientific knowledge. There are also other resources that have "pictures" on Earth from around 65 million years ago and it looks about the same as now with the difference that the continents are closer to each other, but the main points of volcanoes (Andes, Western North America, Himalaya, Kilimanjaro etc) are still there. Example of Earth 65 million years ago: http://forum.celestialmatters.org/userpix/5_065Ma1k_1.jpg (Many more sources could be found.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.225.240.62 (talk) 10:27, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree that it's not a far-fetched conclusion, but I still think that it's wise to stick closely to the letter of the policy in WP:SYNTH in this case. What I think you should do is look to see if there are other sources, either online or not, which have addressed this question and can be used as a source for the article. If none can be found, it may just not be possible to justify adding it to Misplaced Pages yet. Tim Pierce (talk) 19:39, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Ok. So we're going to stick "closely" to WP:SYNTH but I see not so closely to WP:NPOV. That's a double standard. One of Wikipedias fundamental cornerstones is Neutral Point of View. I find the article not neutral and with more paragraphs against the Xenu story with nothing on the positive side backing it up. While a great deal of the article is describing the story in a neutral way, Hubbard is also speculated being on drugs when writing the story, South Park sarcastic episode is mentioned etc. One can always claim independent reliable sources but putting it all together in a neutral, objective fashion is also of relevance. I find nothing in the article that supports the Xenu story or that talks about wins from auditing people have had from it. It lacks neutrality. Can you see anything positive (meaning supporting it)? I can't. It's either neutral or negative.

I would like to add some positive issues that balances the article making it really deserve a golden star and according to the WP:NPOV policy. E.g. auditing wins from OT III, the scientific evidence I've tried to support, a list of celebrities who has completed OT III or similair. I personally think the scientific evidence is far more important than anything else. These cornerstones should be balanced against each others. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sciologos (talk • contribs) 06:07, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't actually think that the article violates WP:NPOV. The article appears to cover the basics of the Xenu story in a pretty straightforward way. Both the history of Xenu and the popular reaction to it are meticulously sourced. It is true that the article includes some criticisms of Hubbard and less praise, but the criticisms are also very clearly cited -- if it does not include more material favorable to Scientology, that may be because there is simply less pro-Scientology independent third-party coverage to draw upon. I realize that it must be very frustrating to feel that the article is unfair to Scientology. If there are reliable sources to counter some of the content of this article, then I for one will look at them to see how they can be used to make the article more balanced. Tim Pierce (talk) 22:09, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Could you point out anything in the article that supports the Xenu story or say anything positive about it? Sciologos (talk) 07:58, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

we have 7 sections dedicated to the story and its influence upon scientology as a depiction of events "unlikely to have occurred in real life", but which assume meaning after years of contemplation and study (quote from the church of scientology), while only 2 sections on its critical reception by the public at large. how is this not a "neutral point of view, representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources." NPOV does not mean that you have to have one negative statement for every positive statement within the article, or that everyone who has an opinion on the topic be given a free section to expand upon their viewpoints. The church of Scientology does not support the Xenu story, going so far as denying or downplaying its relevancy to their own doctrine and the WP:RS that they offer support that while it is part of their doctrine (or possibly a hoax, maybe it doesn't even exist, or maybe something similar to what was said but it is horribly out of context, or maybe you shouldn't be talking about that at all, etc.) they do not offer anything positive about it. In fact the church position is that it is complete mumbo jumbo or a fabrication (at least that is what the church constantly says). so there actually is no positive position regarding the Xenu story, both the church and the critics have publicly stated it is unlikely to have actually happened and should be taken as just a story, and this article represents both of those positions well offering separate sections for both the church of Scientology and its critics to state why the story should be completely ignored.Coffeepusher (talk) 18:03, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Hmm... I just found something interesting from the Ex-scientologist forum. They apparently have discussed these things over there: (Original Source: http://www.freezoneearth.org/pilot/sscio/06_02.html)

"Incident 2 IS the great dying, and it is a few million years earlier than is indicated by radio carbon dating because the nuclear explosions raised the background radiation level temporarily. The scientists calculate their dates with the assumption that the radiation level is constant, so that if they see a higher count, they think the object being dated was buried more recently because it hasn't decayed as far (rather than starting from a higher radiation level). So they date the iridium layer (which is indicative of a planet wide catastrophe) and the billions of bone fragments (see books like "Digging Dinosaurs") at around 67 million years ago instead of 75 million. Of course the current scientific explanation of the layer is that a comet hit the Earth (a really large body planetary impact will probably generate enough heat to go nuclear)."

The above is not my conclusion but comes from a Freezone article on the Internet. Is that considered not original research? Why don't you have an end section in every article where advanced speculation can occur and where it clearly states it is some kind of advanced speculation? I believe some articles have that. It still have to be based on facts of course.Sciologos (talk) 20:33, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

That would be a violation of WP:NOR. Let us instead rely upon independent reliable secondary sources. -- Cirt (talk) 20:35, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

I concur with Cirt, allowing original research is a boomerang that will come back and cut every position to pieces. it is not a matter of who said it (scientologist, freezone, critic, scientist, mason, green three armed man from the center of the earth) we have established WP:RS guidelines to maintain consistency and make sure that the claims in the article come from sources that have been examined by a critical second party (editors, scholars in the field, green men, etc.). I could make a freezone website today and type up anything I wanted. The church of scientology has a dogmatic interest in this topic and could put anything on the web using their websites which may or may not be factual. the critics of scientology could and have put any number of claims on their websites. WP:RS and WP:NOR keep all of these positions from turning this article into a mad hatters party where anything can be included by someone who owns a website.Coffeepusher (talk) 21:07, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

1. Mr. Pierce and Mr. Cirt, could you point out anything in the article that supports the Xenu story or say anything positive about it? 2. I accept the idea of no original research. 3. Coffepusher: Neutral means neutral, it does not mean slightly negative. As of now, it is more negative than neutral and that is a violation to the WP:NPOV. If we're going to stick closely to WP:NPOV I believe we should stick closely to the definition of words as well. 4. The Church of Scientology not supporting the story does not mean the Freezone does not support the story.Sciologos (talk) 07:36, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

The definition of WP:NPOV, according to wikipedia policies, is to accurately present all of the significant arguments that can be found in WP:RS. again it is not to whitewash the tone of article or present a equal amount of pro's or con's, it is to reflect what the significant reliable sources say. this article accurately reflects both the content and the tone of those WP:RS so what WP:RS are out there that support this story or says anything positive about it?Coffeepusher (talk) 14:17, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Comment: This discussion thread involving Sciologos (talk · contribs) is beginning to get repetitive and circular in nature and is quickly degrading in any hope for constructive dialogue, especially with regard to multiple insisted proposals of violation of site policy. -- Cirt (talk) 14:20, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Cirt, it's a little bit repetitive, but we're actually getting somewhere. I suggest you answer my question nr 1 in a constructive way so that we can get somewhere. I'm actually trying to sort this out in an intellectual fashion which means going into great academic detail. What I'm trying to acknowledge from Cirt and Pierce is that the article is slightly negative. Do we agree on that, Cirt and Pierce? Yes or no?

Another big problem with your combined cornerstones from an overall perspective is that (to put it simple) if Person A claims something and an article is written about it, and Person B is against it, Person B could be quoted as a reliable source from someone supporting him, but Person A cannot be quoted from someone who supports him since Person A is not considered a reliable source (conflicts of interest). This creates advantages for those who are against an idea. Overly simplified: It's like two teams with two people in each team, but in one of the teams they are not allowed to support each other. Not Fair Game (no pun intended). How do you solve that issue?Sciologos (talk) 17:34, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

The article reflects and is backed up by numerous independent reliable secondary sources. -- Cirt (talk) 17:37, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't agree that the overall tone of the article is negative. I agree that it cites some negative reports about L. Ron Hubbard, but I think the overall tone of the article is actually quite balanced. Tim Pierce (talk) 20:01, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

I have no problem with those resources. Now please, Cirt: Do you consider the article slightly negative? Yes or No?Sciologos (talk) 17:44, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

well since the article accurately reflects and is backed up by WP:RS, the requirements for a WP:NPOV which has been pointed out several times, I think it has become obvious that you don't have any WP:RS which would change its tone.Coffeepusher (talk) 17:48, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Agree with Coffeepusher. -- Cirt (talk) 17:56, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Like I earlier stated, I would prefer "judges" who are independent. Cirt seems to have participated in many anti-Scientology articles on Misplaced Pages.Sciologos (talk) 17:58, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Please comment on content, not contributors, thanks. -- Cirt (talk) 17:59, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

I have not attacked anybody. I have demanded independent judges. That is not a personal attack. This discussion can hardly go on unbiased without judges having no connection either pro or con to Scientology. (Cirt, you still haven't answered my question).Sciologos (talk) 18:03, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Who are you? "Cirt seems to have participated in many anti-scientology articles on wikipeda" is not backed up by anything that has occurred in his edits in the few days you have participated as a member (and I know you would be able to make that argument by his editing patterns in general), but is very reflective of several claims made by people who are no longer with us.Coffeepusher (talk) 18:15, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Like I stated: I would like to communicate with an independent judge, Tim Pierce seems to be one. (Cirt: You still haven't answered my detailed question but is answering in broad generalities, avoiding the subject: Yes or No, is the article slightly negative?)Sciologos (talk) 17:42, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

I see that someone has added: "It is suspected that the operator of this account has abusively used one or more accounts." I have not another account. Falsely accusing me of having several accounts is "illegal" I presume? Who did this and on what basis? Again, I would like an independent judge.Sciologos (talk) 17:51, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

I am here and am happy to communicate with you if you have any issues that need to be addressed, but you do not seem to have any issues that require immediate attention. Tim Pierce (talk) 18:32, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

If you have any questions about the outstanding sockpuppet investigation, you can follow the links from your own user page yourself. Your questions are answered there. Tim Pierce (talk) 18:33, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Funny, it appears that your qualifications for an independent judge is someone who doesn't ask you to provide a reliable source for your requested edits, since you were in conversation with Cirt until he agreed that you should provide such evidence...then suddenly he is bias. Other fallacies you have presented are the Loaded question fallacy otherwise known as the "yes or no" fallacy, in addition to your "yah but you smell funny so the truth no longer applies" fallacy...for that matter, what anti-Scientology pages do I edit besides south park? since we have already established that the international south park agenda is either complete bull s@!t used by people who just want someone to accuse of being responsible for their own PR disasters or the most evil influence upon our society bent on the destruction of all free thinkers out there...come to think of it, can you engage in a discussion without engaging in a Fallacy in logic? Since we are talking about impartial judges, I recall that Scientology training endorses these lines of argumentation as ways to "engage in superior argumentation" (note the statement "lack of reason or sense"), and that you obviously mirror those behaviors...and that you only edit the Xenu talk page with a pro-Xenu story bias...so you fail to qualify as an impartial editor as established by your own set of criteria, in fact you are the least qualified editor based on your own criteria...??? interesting, you appear to be accusing us of behaviors that you yourself hold dear.Coffeepusher (talk) 18:41, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

For the record, my first contribution to this article was to ask Scilogos to provide reliable sources. Tim Pierce (talk) 18:49, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

yes but you haven't asked him to provide sources in the nature of his Loaded question, so watch out, you may be part of the international south park conspiracy yet.Coffeepusher (talk) 18:51, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

With all due respect to the intellectual gentlemen Mr. Coffepusher and Mr. Cirt, you are probably descent and nice fellows but due to the highly controversial subject of this matter I prefer to communicate with Mr. Pierce only.

Tim Pierce: I read the sockpuppet investigation and I happily welcome it. I can assure you I have never tried to edit the Xenu article prior to these current chats. This has been a long talk (sorry for that) but partly because I've had to understand how Misplaced Pages works. I had no idea about the cornerstones, controversial articles etc so I've partly had to figure that out first. I'll try to be brief.

Controversial articles require neutrality and high demands. 1. Do you have any cornerstone about "judges" (or editors) having no connection either for or against an article? 2. Church of Scientology is not an independent resource since they are biased. Would any of the following resources be good enough regarding claims about the story?

A. Auditing sessions from Freezoners (Scientologists not connected to the Church of Scientology). E.g. Freezoners who claim they remember the volcanoes or other events connected to the OT III story etc from their auditing. B. Celebrities who have accomplished OT III. C. A general discussion about K-T layer, iridium, shocked quartz etc taking place on a ex-scientology forum. I would then not be doing any original research but referring to that quite elaborated discussion with lots of resources. (Source: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=13097&highlight=iridium)

Thank you in advance for your answers.Sciologos (talk) 19:17, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

I see there's a "See also" headline. Could these things be included there if I write another article about it?Sciologos (talk) 19:32, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Please keep in mind that none of us are paid to work on Misplaced Pages; this is something that we do in our spare time. I may not have time to keep up with a long content dispute on this article. To some degree you may need to take what you can get, in terms of which editors will work with you.

As to your question, Misplaced Pages does have a conflict of interest guideline, which recommends that editors not participate in editing when they have a conflict of interest with the subject matter. It is not a strict policy and allows for editors to exercise their own judgment. The Misplaced Pages policy on not using primary sources is similar: a primary source is not considered reliable since the source has a vested interest in readers believing their story.

For the claim at hand -- scientific evidence supporting the OT III claims -- I do not think individual testimonies such as (A) or (B) would satisfy Misplaced Pages's need for reliable sources. What I requested was for a third-party source (i.e. not affiliated with the Church of Scientology) who have studied and written about whether there is minerological support for the OT III story, who have addressed the claims about shocked quartz and iridium in the context of OT III. If you have identified such a source I will be interested in seeing it, but so far there do not seem to be any. Tim Pierce (talk) 19:57, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

you have made it very clear that you don't want to talk to anyone who disagrees with you, employing personal attacks in the process. But as for conflict of interests, the only editor who actually has a conflict of interest is the one who is editing with a single purpose account, and who is claiming that the only reason the other editors are interpreting the policies exactly how they are written and asking for reliable sources from him is because they also edit other articles that may not hold strictly to Scientology dogma. I personally don't have a conflict of interest and will support any edit in the Xenu article that is backed by WP:RS, something you have yet to provide.Coffeepusher (talk) 21:18, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

I find it interesting to see such a great resistance against anything positive or confirming about OT III creating a more balanced article. Coffepusher, please watch your words. You are also under scrutiny by the community and I ask you to behave politely. Again, asking for independent judges is not a personal attack. Calling somebody a "moron" or "stupid" is. Ever heard of the Strawman argumentation? (http://en.wikipedia.org/Straw_man)

My final judgment as a Misplaced Pages reader is that the article does not hold up to WP:NPOV since it is slightly negative and there is absolutely nothing positive or nothing at all that confirms the material of OT III, despite numerous successful auditing stories in the thousands and some geological confirmations. The slightly negative touch could be further examined by counting words and sentences and analyze which are positive, neutral and negative and that way in great detail come to a conclusion. For that reason the article does not deserve a gold star in my personal opinion since it is not balanced well enough. I suggest the responsible editors ponder this fact. I'm considering going all the way to the top if necessary to make the article more balanced. I will save this entire conversation and the entire Xenu article.

You editors probably feel you're just doing your job by sticking to reliable sources and no original research etc and I feel I'm sticking to NPOV. That means there's a conflict in these cornerstones. For that matter I suggest you implement an order of what cornerstone is more important than the other.

I will see if I can find any supporting material. I'm not affiliated with the Church of Scientology or Freezone by the way. So long for now and thanks. :)Sciologos (talk) 11:56, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

As I said before, I don't agree that the article has a "slightly negative tone." I think the tone is quite balanced. Some of the material has negative connotations, yet is addressed in a very even-handed, nonjudgmental way.

It is not necessarily a contradiction for an article to include negative material about a subject and yet satisfy a "neutral point of view." Examples include: Hindenburg disaster, 2009–2010 Toyota vehicle recalls and Catholic sex abuse cases. A manufacturer of zeppelin airships could argue, reasonably, that Hindenburg disaster casts zeppelins in a negative light. And yet the article is written from a neutral point of view, for a person considering the matter from a neutral position will find countless verifiable third-party reports confirming the events described in the article. So it is here.

If your goal is to present the Xenu story in a more positive light, then you should be looking for reliable sources that confirm the positive story. If you find and present them here I will be happy to look at them. Tim Pierce (talk) 14:46, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

The articles you mention is something different. Basically, an article describes the issue X. This issue could be positive in itself (cure for cancer), negative in itself (Holocaust) or neutral (Earth's diameter). An article having a naturally negative issue is going to have a negative feel. You're talking about the subject in itself (e.g. Hindenburg disaster). What I'm discussing here is the evidence and hard facts for or against an issue, not the subject itself. Two different things. This is especially important when it comes to something not being a hard fact, e.g. the Earth's diameter.

I notice in the O.J. Simpson murder case article (http://en.wikipedia.org/O._J._Simpson_murder_case) there's a great amount of factors describing both pro and con helping the reader make up his own mind, some of them verbal in nature (like auditing is).

Quote: "In the letter Simpson said, "First everyone understand I had nothing to do with Nicole's murder…" Pierce said: "I do not think individual testimonies such as (A) or (B) would satisfy Misplaced Pages's need for reliable sources." How come O.J. are allowed to be quoted? Isn't he biased? I'd hardly consider him a reliable source since he was charged with murder. So why couldn't a Freezoner confirming something out of the Xenu story be regarded as reliable as O.J.?

Mike Gilbert and Yale Galanter are allowed to be quoted against each other, why couldn't freezoners, critics and ex-scientologists be allowed to be quoted against each other? Sometimes facts are not so obvious and clear and verbal testimonials are a natural part of the overall picture (e.g. trials and auditing).

By totally ignoring verbal testimonials, especially if they're a major part of the issue, and by obeying the rules too strictly, I believe less truth will be found.Sciologos (talk) 11:58, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

your right, OJ is biased thats why we dont present that information as a fact, but as a quote. We don't endorse it as truth, rather we state the fact that he said something. as for "I'd hardly consider him a reliable source" your right! especially because he is not the source in your example, CNN is with this ref , CNN reliably reports that OJ said something, we relay that OJ said something in quotation. The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth. As for what you are asking you will require, just as your example did, a Reliable source that actually specifically states what you are saying. Not several documents that one can extrapolate information from wp: synth forbids that as Original Research. And i highly doubt a publication from within scientology would hold up to scrutiny as a reliable source if disputed on the RS boards. Smitty1337 (talk) 14:43, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

"O.J.'s Suicide Note". CNN. Retrieved 2008-06-16.

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