Misplaced Pages

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• Refining the administrator elections process
• Blocks for promotional activity outside of mainspace
• Voluntary RfAs after resignation
• Proposed rewrite of WP:BITE
• LLM/chatbot comments in discussions

HoundsOfSpring, again

In late February, I brought this user to the attention of this board. As of today he is still performing these problematic edits, and has been since I last discussed him here. The {{whom?}} and other tags such as those in the following diffs are still unnecessary but he still edits in this way despite both my attempts and EyeSerene's: . He's not changing his ways. What do we do?—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 07:11, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't see anything objectionable about the 1st diff (adding a {{fact}} tag). I could have added it myself had I read that article. Did not check the other ones. Pcap ping 07:15, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

I checked them. He does seem to be a little overzealous with the 'whom' tag, but they look like good-faith edits to me... except that he's been asked about this before. Hrm. I'll drop him a note. Shimeru (talk) 07:35, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

I've also let him know that he's being discussed here again. Apparently, he wasn't notified this time around. Pcap ping 07:50, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Ahem.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 08:43, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

He can't say he didn't see it (in triplicate) now... Pcap ping 10:16, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

The problem appears to be that HoundsOfSpring is too educated for the articles he's editing, and insists too much that other editors rise to his standards of sourcing and English (or too "anal", if you prefer). This discussion is a good example. Pcap ping 11:09, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

The reason why he tags various articles with seems to be that he dislikes passive voice without an agent like "shit is done to editors". All his edits to Misplaced Pages (using this account, anyway) are only of the copyedit/grammar fixes variety, but are by no means limited to Anime articles. Pcap ping 12:27, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Pcap pinged me at my talk page for "MoS" advice (but it's more a case of collaborative mechanics than MoS, AFAICS—I can appreciate the irritation, but words such as "anal" and "too educated" will do no good). Some of Hound's edits are improvements, others are not. "A second convention is planned to take place from August 27 to 29, 2010, in Los Angeles". Reasonable point, but the "whom" template is unnecessary. In other places Hound is applying a too-strict rule about avoiding the passive voice, for example "an episode (or two) were dedicated to a ..."—that is fine in the passive without specified agent, to my eyes. "in certain areas"—yep, it's vague. "In many series, a Ranger is also given additional Zords or weapons."—no agent is fine in a vid games context for this meaning, I think. "which has gained much media-coverage."—I agree, this definitely needs citation.

It's a mixed bag. My solution would be to implore Hounds and the other editors to print their proposed copy-edits and inline queries first on the talk page for a while, so that trust can be regained. It's the practical way of doing business. Tony (talk) 12:52, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate the discussion. It seems that differences of opinion exist on how (and how frequently) one should use standard Misplaced Pages "whom"-tags. Perhaps we should have some sort of other tag to ask for more detail - or do we have such a tag already? -- HoundsOfSpring (talk) 02:39, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

As it has ben discussed here and in the old thread, your obsession with the "weasel factor" of the phrasing across the project is not what is expected by other editors. These plot points or other aspects that you request elaboration on are not necessary. That is what I have been telling you for 3 months.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 03:44, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

As the Misplaced Pages project in its wisdom has granted us a "whom"-tag, fellow-editors can expect to encounter it from time to time. That said, I tend to interpret it literally as "by whom" and overlook the "weasel-wording" associations. Should we invent/adopt a new/different tag to ask for more information when some Wikipedians want an encyclopedia to give detail and not just to assume that "things happen" somehow? -- HoundsOfSpring (talk) 01:42, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

No. Those type of issues you just bring up on the talk page.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 21:57, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps we should lobby to make the documentation of the "whom"-tag more general. That would seem to accord with tag culture on Misplaced Pages. -- HoundsOfSpring (talk) 06:57, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

So, is you effort an exercise in WP:POINT? I do have the feeling we're being trolled here. Pcap ping 07:51, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

BKWSU again

Judging from my watchlist, Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University‎, an article on ArbCom probation, has recently gone "live" again. Could someone take a look? Orderinchaos 12:48, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Brahma Kumaris adherent owning all Brahma Kumari related topics

Yes, thank you, Orderinchaos.

A Brahma Kumaris cult adherent is owning all Brahma Kumari related topics. This has been going on, with extensive edit warring for years. It does not seem right. See: Special:Contributions/Bksimonb.

In light of similar decisions made about the Scientology topic, can someone tell me how long this has to go on for?

The Brahma Kumaris are a passionately evangelistic 'End of the World' cult engaged in fairly heavy PR and media control. Their adherents are motivated a forthcoming Nuclear Holocaust that will "purify" the world, destroying all other religions, so that they alone can inherit the world. Their persistent efforts are inspired by earning a high status in the Golden Age which their god spirit predicts will following "Destruction".

It would not seem to be the most rational basis for contributing to an encyclopedia.

Thank you. --Taking stock (talk) 13:10, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

This is another obvious sock of User:Lucyintheskywithdada. SPI report already filed. Bksimonb (talk) 13:29, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Just to add "thanks" for the very rapid response. Looks like he's blocked and the page protected already. Much appreciated. Bksimonb (talk) 14:10, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately, it is still going on. Bksimonb very much seems to be a single purpose account here, controlling any topics relating to his cult or its financiers and seeking to subtly modify them over a period of time to match the current corporate PR.

What can one do? --The Same Every 5000 Years (talk) 19:46, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Bksimonb doesn't seem to have edited since yesterday, and in any event was not the user who was sanctioned here. Since you're a very new user, do you mind if I ask how you come to be involved in this issue? TFOWR 20:02, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

It's another sock. I've filed another SPI report. Bksimonb (talk) 07:06, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Disruptive editing of image link in Christian denomination

I want to start by saying I'm not used to these noticeboards and ask for forgiveness for any hiccups resulting from that. Would appreciate feedback regarding how to better handle these situations.

User:BreadBran and anonymous IPs 173.206.236.231 and 173.206.236.24 have been persistently editing Christian denomination to replace the image Image:ChristianityBranches.svg with BreadBran's image File:ChristianBranches.png. The PNG version appears to be a simple conversion from the SVG version with the removal of "Early Christianity" text from the leftmost branch. Consensus on Talk:Christian denomination (and from what I've been told, on Misplaced Pages) is that SVG is preferred over PNG for non-photographic content, so these edits are against this consensus. Furthermore, have attempted to notify BreadBran and IP through User_talk:BreadBran, User_talk:173.206.236.24, User_talk:173.206.236.231 and through the article's Talk:Christian denomination, as well as through edit summaries asking for discussion. Neither user has replied on any talk page; I went on a brief Wikibreak, came back and discovered these edits have been continuing, and are being reverted.

Sample diffs:

• BreadBran
• IP

Would also appreciate guidance on whether/how to deal with the graphic itself; BreadBran originally claimed ownership, when it is clearly a port from the SVG; I edited the description on File:ChristianBranches.png to reflect this. Not sure what Commons policy is on image duplication/derivation; I'm not familiar with the Commons, unfortunately.

It doesn't seem to meet vandalism (AGF that the user genuinely believes PNG is better for some reason), but it doesn't seem to meet edit-warring either since we've repeatedly asked for participation in discussion and haven't gotten any. 3RR isn't being violated, since the edits are being made over a longer period of time actually, IP did violate 3RR; see: . For these reasons, I was not sure which noticeboard to use; this seems to meet the definition of "tendentious editing" to me; e.g. WP:POINT meant to say WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT and You ignore or refuse to answer good faith questions from other editors. Also, for what it's worth thus far BreadBran seems to be a single-use account. Would ask for an administrator's judgment on this matter as to whether/what action is necessary. Thanks,

-- Joren (talk) 05:06, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Actually, the IP didn't violate 3RR -- the last four edits were over four days. It's clearly edit warring, though: if the IP/BreadBran aren't willing to discuss, they should back off. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:08, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

It's not important, but just wanted to clarify the diff I'd posted was in fact the fourth revision in the previous 24 hours for that IP address from 11:01, 11 May 2010 to 09:18, 12 May 2010 (UTC+9). Just felt the need to be clear in case anyone wondered if I was just making up stuff :) Thanks!

-- Joren (talk) 19:12, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, the IP has now violated 3RR. These four reversions: , , , and took place over a period of 18 hours and 18 minutes. JamesBWatson (talk) 18:27, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

I've blocked the IP for 48 hours and left a note at User:BreadBran's talk page. Also reverted the article back to the .svg version of the image. Shimeru (talk) 20:08, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

BreadBran has made the same edit again: . As of yet, no statements from either BreadBran or IP address on any of the talk pages.

-- Joren (talk) 19:12, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Blocked him for 48 hours too. Hopefully he'll get the message. Shimeru (talk) 19:24, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Canvassing

Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk · contribs) has canvassed for Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Iceland–Mexico relations (2nd nomination) by notifying a group including ARS regulars () about the AfD renomination (some of whom weren't even involved in the previous discussion) without notifying everyone involved in the previous discussion. The user's response to notification of this has been wikilawyering with no attempt to notify further participants in the original discussion. VernoWhitney (talk) 13:47, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

it should also be noted that all those alerted by Richard Norton are editors known for only !voting at bilateral article AfDs. This is one of the most blatant violations of canvassing I've seen in recent times. The fact that Richard Norton as an experienced editor pretends this is not canvassing with responses like this, shows that he is deliberately trying to conceal obvious canvassing and a deliberate disregard for WP rules. LibStar (talk) 13:53, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

This happened 48 hours ago and has already been raised at the AFD. Norton has already been warned for this and I briefly considered blocking him for it yesterday but decided that it was a little after the event for this to be anything other then punitive. Add another day and block looks even more punitive and I'm afraid you just have to wait for the AFD to be closed and for the closing admin to make allowances for the canvassing. If this doesn't happen then you have a prima facie case for the close to be overturned at DRV and the article relisted. Not really sure what else you can reasonably expect us to do here right now. Spartaz 14:11, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

The issue here is that he is a very experienced editor and knew exactly what he was doing. yes I warned him after this spate of canvassing, however the bigger issue here is his deliberate disregard of WP rules, when pressed on canvassing. LibStar (talk) 14:19, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm not saying it wasn't reprehensible, it was was, but the time to raise a complaint is at the time of the event not 48 hours afterwards. Blocks are not punishments but preventative. What does a block right now prevent? If he canvassed further then I would block in a milisecond but unless he does that its really down to weighing the keep side against the fact of the canvassing. Spartaz 14:54, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Yea this far down the road might cross from preventative into punitive, but I found the "well everyone showed up anyways" response to be the troubling part. Tarc (talk) 14:58, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

and to everyone, this is his most recent comment on this and which seems more disregard for WP process. LibStar (talk) 15:00, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry if you feel that this report is too late to be valid, but I did not become aware of it as it occurred, and after looking around this morning I felt that it had not been raised in an appropriate forum after the lack of a meaningful reply on his talk page (as AfD should be about the article, not other actions). Personally, I'm a fan of blocking purpose #3: "Encouraging a rapid understanding that the present behavior cannot continue and will not be tolerated", but then that's what's used most often (as far as I can tell) when it comes to copyright violations (where policy violations are often not immediately discovered) which is where I usually work. VernoWhitney (talk) 15:11, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Despite many people pointing out to Richard it was clearly canvassing, he continually tries to pretend and deny it was canvassing. If he said, "sorry I won't do it again" then that would be end of story but he persists with this attitude that such "notifications" (masquerading blatant canvassing) are acceptable. LibStar (talk) 15:15, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Why is the article canvass squadron permitted space to exist? --Cameron Scott (talk) 15:26, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Because it was started with he best of intentions and was not intended to just be a hardcore inclusionist voting block. Somewhere along the line most of them lost their way and became obsessed with keeping any old piece of junk as a "tactical maneuver" as opposed to actually improving articles so that they meet our basic criteria. I've been knocking around an essay on this at User:Beeblebrox/Adding sources as a tactical maneuver, maybe I'll move it into project space... Beeblebrox (talk) 17:15, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree it was started with the best of intentions, but I've been wondering for a while, having seen it on other AfdS, if it has changed to the point where it is no longer helpful to the project. Dougweller (talk) 17:19, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

I think that some of the people who actually do the work of constructively improving and adding sources to savable articles have gone it alone. There has always been a 'turn up and vote "keep"' element within the ARS and that tends to be people's perception of the project.pretty preppy prose, pablo!   pablo_hablo. 20:42, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

• To ensure a representative sample is drawn, the remaining participants from Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Iceland–Mexico relations not already canvassed (if any) should be contacted in a suitably neutral fashion. –xeno 17:22, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

  I've done this. –xeno 17:38, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Richard A Norton has been given final warning. I don't monitor AFDs often, so editors that notice further behaviour along this line should drop me a note.—Kww(talk) 17:33, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

• When I wrote "let the wars being" in your near-unanimous last RfA, I was anticipating something like this. Glad you haven't let me down. Popcorn! Pcap ping 05:53, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

What I see here is Yet Another Chapter in an ongoing saga between two camps on how to handle bilateral relations. One side wants to keep all such pairings, regardless of their usefulness, while the other immediately wants to delete any pairing they have not heard of. This WikiDrama is not going to end unless (1) all bilateral relations are assumed to be notable (one could argue that informing a user that two countries have no relations with each other is useful information), or (2) a criteria is established which allow an objective judgment to be made. (Along those lines, whatever happened to Misplaced Pages: WikiProject International relations/Bilateral relations task force?) -- llywrch (talk) 22:31, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

• I believe he only contacted people who were involved in the previous AFD for that article. Libstar is nominating the same articles he failed to get deleted a year ago, we having the same AFDs over again. Everyone from the previous AFD should be contacted, regardless of how they voted. If he failed to contact some of the participates who hadn't already found their way there, then I believe it was done in error, he not understanding the rules, they not all clearly written. I don't know if everyone contacted was a member of the Article Rescue Squadron or not, but that wasn't the reason they were contacted so isn't relevant. Dream Focus 22:53, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Dream Focus you are clearly wrong, here is the original Afd, I can note that Richard canvassed these users who did not even appear in the original AfD: Namiba, AlanSohn, MichaelQSchmidt. Richard failed to contact any of the delete voters in the original AfD. clearest case of canvassing I've seen. LibStar (talk) 13:51, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

The best rule of thumb for this is pretty simple: don't talk to anyone about AFDs anywhere but on the AFD and the talk page for the article that has been nominated. That way, no one can ever accuse you of canvassing. There's no reason to invite people from similar AFDs, previous AFDs, or even people that have edited the article. The goal of an AFD is to get an unbiased cross-section of editors, not one sorted by any criteria, no matter how objectively reasonable that criteria seems to be.—Kww(talk) 23:06, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Did they give you the power to impose new policy by fiat in your RfA? I missed that part... Perhaps you should speedy delete WP:DELSORT as well, because it attracts editors that might care about certain articles as opposed to completely random ones. I've been "canvased", and have "canvased" myself w.r.t AfD a good number of times. The guideline seems to be WP:CANVASS, last I checked. Pcap ping 06:00, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

That's my advice, not policy. Norton violated WP:CANVAS, and that's what he was warned about and that's what he will be blocked for future violations of.—Kww(talk) 14:23, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

What a bunch of mealy-mouthed excuse-making. This is an experienced editor, not a green-thumbed newbie, and WP:CANVAS has a very easy to read table to help determine the difference between proper and improper notifications. Norton only notified noted inclusionists such as yourself, and quite clearly knew what he was doing. Tarc (talk) 23:31, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

• Dream Focus, the only reason Richard Norton contacted those people is because he wanted them to come and vote keep. He selectively contacted only people he felt would vote the way he wanted, but excluded people who voted to delete last time. That's pretty obvious canvassing, and to pretend otherwise is just disingenuous. Reyk _YO! 23:02, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

I think everyone who responded has missed my point. Richard is a long-time & experienced Wikipedian; he knows about canvassing & that he can be sanctioned for it. Yet he felt this issue was worth risking a ban for doing this. Why did he do this? The reason is obvious: the unresolved dispute over "notable" bilateral relations. So it is reasonable to suspect that even if Richard is permanently banned from Misplaced Pages, this dispute won't go away. Attempts to resolve it by finding a consensus have been unsuccessful, to put it mildly. Yes, WP:AN/I should focus on behavior over content, but unless the deeper cause is addressed -- lack of an explicit standard for notable bilateral relations -- other parties in this dispute will become featured guests here. Which I assume no one wants. -- llywrch (talk) 23:55, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

We did have consensus--we had an approximate standard, much less inclusionist than I would have liked, but a moderately self-consistent set of decisions nonetheless, at the original rounds of discussion on these. The recent afds are renomination of the articles that survived, and I see them as an attempt to disrupt the admittedly fragile tacit settlement that had been achieved . DGG ( talk ) 01:50, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

I disagree with the "don't talk about AfD anywhere but the AfD discussion. It is permissible to inform Wikiprojects with a neutral notice that "article X" has been nominated for deletion. Members of that WP then have the opportunity to look at the article, and decide whether it should be kept, deleted, merged or turned into a redirect. Mjroots2 (talk) 06:01, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

That's why the simpler approach of indef blocks for those users who continue to turn AfD into a battleground (there are less than a dozen, and three of the most high-profile have thankfully left the project recently anyway) is best. Then people can continue to argue for a more sanguine approach to notifying other editors of AfDs without acting as useful idiots for the hardcore disruptors. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 12:36, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Courtesy Break

• It is time for an unequivocal ban on ARS canvassing. They can use a transcluded notification page and/or watchlist a noticeboard. This keeps happening, keeps causing drama, and keeps being an unacceptably one-sided form of canvassing. Guy (Help!) 14:07, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

• I thought there was an "unequivocal ban" on canvassing, period. Or is this a proposal along the lines of the old warning, "Offenders will be shot. Repeat offenders will be repeatedly shot"? -- llywrch (talk) 16:46, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

• I've never understood the long-standing battle over these relations articles - they don't seem to warrant the fuss that is made over them either way. Anyway, the comments of the usual hard-core deletionists above seem neither helpful nor unbiased as they just seem to represent one side of this battle. Colonel Warden (talk) 16:58, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

WP:LAMEcup? Pcap ping 08:18, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) This is ridiculous canvassing. Getting inclusionists to vote on that AFD is definitely not neutral, and especially because Arthur is very experienced around here, this is clearly canvassing. Wonder why he hasn't posted here yet. —MC10 (T•C•GB•L) 17:00, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps the "usual hard-core deletionists" are getting just a wee bit tired of the ARS cheating and manipulating AfDs? You can't shoot the messenger just because someone got caught so red-handed. Tarc (talk) 20:49, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

• Call a spade a spade. Whatever the intentions when created, the ARS has beomce, to a degree, the Canvass squadron. Posting a notice there invites dozens of "the usual hardcore inclusionists" to run to an AfD and start claiming that "one source passes GNG" or something like that. If there was a Article Deletionist project, it would be the same thing. Niteshift36 (talk) 21:09, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

• And if someone did start a hardcore deletionist wikiproject, you'd be able to hear the ARS's outraged shrieking from the Moon. Reyk _YO! 23:02, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

• At this point, although members occassionally improve article, I regard ARS as little more than a subtle canvassing project. Just my opinion. Niteshift36 (talk) 01:36, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

• You & I both, Colonel. I was hoping that the discussion I linked to above would have created some kind of consensus about the matter, even if in a negative manner -- e.g., "If two countries do not have diplomatic staff resident in each others countries, nor any explicit reason why this is not so, then their bilateral relations are not notable." Instead, the two camps remain at loggerheads. -- llywrch (talk) 14:31, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

• Has it been canvassing? Yes, perhaps. However when AfD's etc. are discussed here, for example, and armies of deletionists come consequently to sink articles, canvassing complaints are immediately dismissed (see ). Double standards? Also: I am an outspoken inclusionist, yet I've still to see "dozens of the usual hardcore inclusionists" in any AfD discussion. I would absolutely love to see examples of that, it would give me back some faith in the WP process :) --Cyclopia 21:21, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

  Anyone with more than a brief experience of XfD who claims to be unfamiliar with the dominant clique involved with inclusionist disruption is being wholly disingenuous. Full stop. This goes double for anyone who reads enough of Misplaced Pages Review to be linking to discussions of the subject. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 22:33, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

  I have more than a brief experience of AfD, and I really see no "dominant inclusionist clique". I instead see a dominant deletionist bias, especially (but not only) in dealing with BLPs. Perhaps we read two different AfD's? --Cyclopia 01:31, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

  Yes, I've just seen Jimbo's comments regarding your attitude towards unreferenced BLPs. I rather think we're on different planets. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 09:00, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Indeed Misplaced Pages Review has been tremendously helpful for identifying and focusing editors to flock to discussions and greatly sway events regardless of the disruption and invasion of privacy. In fact it's so very helpful to disrupt Misplaced Pages time and time again to make a point, right? We don't need a deletion canvas squadron as Misplaced Pages Review does that quite effectively with zero accountability and unencumbered by our pesky policies. Comfort shoe (talk) 23:59, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

"Our"? An odd word to use for an account's first edit. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 08:20, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Comfort shoe is clearly somebody's sock. A Nobody/The Pumpkin King/Elizabeth Rogan/Wikipedian, Historian and Friend has been socking again so it may be him. But it's definitely somebody'sBali ultimate (talk) 11:49, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Bingo ;) Jack Merridew 11:54, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

So, all that's needed is another web site, Misplaced Pages Unreview, for inclusionists? Pcap ping 08:23, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Pretty much every aspect of Misplaced Pages gets criticised on Misplaced Pages Review anyway, so one has to do some pretty selective reading to suggest that it's some deletionist holdout. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 09:00, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Maybe a Misplaced Pages Review Reality Check would help or a template warning that specific discussions are poisoned by offsite canvassing. We can pretend it's all noble to critique editors and policies on other websites but when editors show duplicitous signs of disruption and defend banned users making a point it gets tired. Eroding the academic work of volunteers may be great sport however the end result remains the degrading of human knowledge by intimidation rather than utilizing the consensus processes worked out over years. Comfort shoe (talk) 09:39, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

You're not saying anything which hasn't previously been discussed. Indeed, even the "Misplaced Pages review is sending people to delete our articles" trope is a well-walked road: Le Grand Roi was fond of that one for a while about a year ago. I'm still curious as to why you chose this thread as the location of your first registered contribution to the project. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 10:27, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, with the exception of a very few (i.e. Everyking), I'd say most WR regulars are leaning on the deletionist side. While I can link lots of WR threads where successful AfD's are collectively cheered with smiles and hoorays, I've yet to see WR actively taking side to keep an article. --Cyclopia 11:30, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm sure that you believe that. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 12:22, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

You're welcome to link me some example of the WR community being happy and relieved of an article being kept at an AfD. --Cyclopia 12:49, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Discourtesy break

The discussion in the section above is a perfect example of why this canvassing has to stop. It stokes persecution mania and militancy and reinforces the false belief in "inclusionist" and "deletionist" as mutually exclusive opposing camps when in reality there is a spectrum of inclusionism and a broad range of personal views on where the threshold should lie for any given topic. Once again, the ARSes have caused division and venom. Was that intended? Probably not, but it happened anyway. So: no more ARS canvassing. Guy (Help!) 16:38, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

What about no more canvassing in general? Skewing consensus is bad either way, isn't it? I am not an active ARS member, but ARS has a noble objective at least -improving articles to make sure valuable material is not deleted. How can this cause "division and venom" baffles me -all what I see in this disgraceful thread is venom thrown against ARS. --Cyclopia 16:47, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, they are more than welcome to rescue articles (Uncle G is one of my favourite Wikipedians of all time, and he has a long history of doing just that). The problem is canvassing. By ARS, by WikiProjects, by anyone. Guy (Help!) 16:58, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I think that the issue is not that the use of the ARS is inherently bad, but that the ARS is open to abuse, e.g. where the article was already well written and referenced and so had no need of rescue. It's cases like this where rescuing an article could be considered votestacking as it then only serves to attract !voters as opposed to editors to improve the article. VernoWhitney (talk) 17:05, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

(ec x2) Bingo! This is my sentiment as well. To the extent that ARS members canvass (as is alleged here) they should be reprimanded. To the extent that NON-ARS members canvass, to whatever end, they too should be reprimanded. The anti-ARS rants are pointless. I reiterate my position that ARS should be a core, volunteer function like 3O, not a wikiproject with membership and leadership. Everything that CAN be improved instead of deleted should be; that which cannot, should not. ARS should be a tool to that end, and neither anyone's pet canvassing forum nor anyone else's pet punching bag. Jclemens (talk) 17:06, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

• It takes two to tango. This really isn't about the ARS at all, since the concern is canvassing of individuals by R.A.N., not the addition of a rescue tag to the article. If/when ARS volunteers simply vote keep without explanation, the vote should be suitably discounted as any other similar vote would be, and votes with valid reasoning should be considered; when ARS members actually improve an article, then it might be worthwhile for editors to consider the changes in the AfD when !voting.

llywrch has one of the few constructive comments that could solve the real problem here: "What I see here is Yet Another Chapter in an ongoing saga between two camps on how to handle bilateral relations. One side wants to keep all such pairings, regardless of their usefulness, while the other immediately wants to delete any pairing they have not heard of. This WikiDrama is not going to end unless (1) all bilateral relations are assumed to be notable (one could argue that informing a user that two countries have no relations with each other is useful information), or (2) a criteria is established which allow an objective judgment to be made. (Along those lines, whatever happened to Misplaced Pages: WikiProject International relations/Bilateral relations task force?)".

It appears that LibStar renominated an article for deletion that they had nominated a year prior, and which was kept. The renomination makes no mention of the the prior keep. When that happens it tends to irritate people because there's no explanation for why there is a new AfD -- it smacks of a simple deletion canvass (because every AfD asks editors to consider whether an article should be deleted, that's the nature of the AfD process). Renominating articles without a rationale for it invites drama. R.A.N.'s response is more understandable in that light, though not excused. It takes two to tango (tangle?). In any event, I'd prefer we solve the underlying problem -- the lack of consensus on how to treat these bilateral articles, because areas like this will consistently cause AN/I threads with varying labels.

Since I am an active ARS member, I should disclose that I was not canvassed for the AfD--I noted it independently while scanning recent AfDs (not even those marked for rescue), and !voted about 12 hours ago. Cyclopedia recently noted the existence of this ANI on the ARS talk page.--Milowent (talk) 17:37, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Shame on all of you

• I am deeply, deeply offended about comments made above about the ARS. I would have thought that such long-standing members would have even a hint of civility. What, just because you're talking about a group of people, instead of individuals, it's okay to use personal attacks? That's one of the worst cases of Wikilawyering i've ever seen. I, for one, have always tried to improve an article, if it's something that does need improvement to be worthy of inclusion. If I can't improve an article at all, I don't vote, there's no point, I believe it to be non-notable. The insinuations and comments made above by other users have been absolutely reprehensible. Though I suppose it's not surprising at all, since the comments are composed by the usual outspoken critics, the deletionists. I'm just shocked that other users have just let them go on and on and not say anything about their incivil remarks. If this is the state of Misplaced Pages, where we just allow crass remarks and titling of sections with "Discourtesy break" to be said by established users, just because they are such, then the project is far closer to crumbling than I imagined. Silverseren 17:40, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

First Flight High School

Can someone wave cluesticks appropriately on the fiesta of stupid currently taking place at First Flight High School and Talk:First Flight High School? – iridescent 16:25, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Tide rolls (talk · contribs) has done that already. —MC10 (T•C•GB•L) 15:25, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Eric144

Eric144 (talk · contribs · block log) is adding defamatory content from a tabloid's opinion piece to the article of a politician elected today. It was removed. A short while later, he simply undid the removal.

He'd already tried inserting it in March, but it was removed by another editor. He readded it today with " reminds us of the dark legacy of the Goldsmith family", which says it all.

I've reluctantly brought it here as a large proportion of the user's edits have been to pages on members of this environmentalist/politician's family:

1. He creates a section titled "Nazism" on the talkpage of one linking to a homepage.ntlworld.com webspace page
2. Later he added a further unsubstantiated related allegation (even though AN/I isn't indexed, I'm not even going to repeat what he said in his last paragraph).
3. Again he restores removed content about it saying "I put the ... information back where it belongs in the middle of what looks like a hagiography to me. Any attempt to remove it will see its immediate return." Again in a subsequent month saying "It reads like a nazi hagiography", with remark "would help if you were to reveal your identity" . The edits to the accompanying article mirror the talkpage edits.

He's long made personal attacks against specific editors. His past block history is for "making personal attacks and for reverting against consensus" with multiple unblock declines due to WP:NOTTHEM.

Despite the edit summary explaining his addition was reverted because it was pov pushing and pointing him to the undue weight NPOV policy, as the article already covered the matter from all points of view using reliable sources including The Times, he simply undid it saying "vandalism".

It seems clear from their editing history the user is not here to collaborate, is unwilling to listen, and for whatever reason is especially focused on members of a particular family making non reliably sourced allegations they are nazis or "human chocolate bars".

I removed the poorly sourced pov material again , and placed a warning template on their talkpage. They responded with this screed referring to a completely different statement as "pathetic, laughable, and execrable"—the statement's sourced to The Observer and has been present in the article since 2008. They restored their defamatory material saying "vandalism" as before. 92.30.111.99 (talk) 22:07, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

some of the article on Edward Goldsmith at present does read like a hagiography: altogether too many adjectives of praise and an inappropriate separate list of links to "associates" and influences" . DGG ( talk ) 04:53, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

I've not edited that article myself nor even read it all, so you may be right; glancing, I do see a few peacock terms in its lead. What I am saying is that the unsupported nazi allegations and defamatory tabloid namecalling insertions about the living politician are inappropriate. 92.30.111.99 (talk) 05:22, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

While that could be true (did not take the time to investigate), the IP editor who began this thread is also correct. I have notified Eric1444 about the inappropriateness of his edits, and I have left a reminder for him to reread the BLP and NPOV policies. NW (Talk) 05:10, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, appreciate it. 92.30.111.99 (talk) 05:36, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

DGG, that is a true text. I have removed some laundry lists from the article and would encourage better copyeditors than I to "edit mercilessly". Guy (Help!) 15:04, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

I really don't have the patience to deal with wikipedia troublemakers like 92.30.111.99 who don't even have a Misplaced Pages account. No one has addressed the pathetic and utterly crass "Young, gifted and Zac" article which remains untouched as "Goldsmith is described by his mother and reporters to be of a gentle disposition" in the article. That is an obvious bias by 92.30.111.99 . The Edward Goldsmith article was a very slimy hagiography by someone almost certainly connected to the family. The Goldsmith family are well known to everyone with the tiniest historical knowledge as being on the very extreme right of British politics. According to a Guardian article, they initiated a fascist coup against Harold Wilson, who subsequently resigned (see BBC documentary The Plot Against Harold Wilson ). It is relevant that a Guardian and NYT journalist uses Nazi symbolism against him. George Monbiot wrote an article called 'Black Shirts in Green Trousers' about Zac's favourite Uncle Edward. Could both of you please stop threatening me. It really isn't nice.

--Eric144 (talk) 15:25, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Furthermore, this idiot seems to think the Guardian is a tabloid. He is no more than semi literate. Why are you backing him up ?

--Eric144 (talk) 19:33, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

You don't help your case with Personal attacks. Doc Quintana (talk) 22:04, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

As the diffs show, they've been warned for personal attacks before. They've been blocked for different ones and disruption.
After being warned by NW their actions related to the article were 'completely inappropriate', their very next edit was to comment here without accepting why their article/talkpages actions were unacceptable (as before), with bad faith accusations and claims both of us are "threatening him". His next edit removed longstanding RS-cited content from the article he disliked by misrepresenting the full length newspaper interview article as a "daft opinion piece" article. The edit after that was to make further personal attacks here on ANI as you can see.

The unsourced alleging of implication of a living person in what're among the worst crimes against humanity in history, in the 2nd diff, are exactly the sort of blp violation we don't need. The namecalling insertions on the article from a pov/attack piece are also unacceptable, as are the personal attacks. It's hard to see much else in order but a block. 92.30.111.99 (talk) 02:15, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

I haven't looked at the whole history, but on one thing at least Eric is certainly right. The IP and other editors have repeatedly insisted on the inclusion of an assertion that Goldsmith "is described by his mother and reporters to be of a gentle disposition", Eric has removed this. Even if the statement were in the source cited (it isn't), this would be a ridiculous piece of puffery. Some of the claims against Goldsmith may be inappropriate (I haven't yet checked), but this sort of statement has no place in any WP biography. RolandR (talk) 08:02, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

That's somewhat incorrect, RolandR. No editors myself included have "repeatedly insisted" on anything regarding that statement. It was inserted by a registered user in August 2008 during their partial rewrite, copyedited as part of the article by others since then, and unchallenged. The only time I've done anything related to it directly was to correct it to adhere to the reliable-source yesterday (per verifiability), removing the words 'his mother and', as the original user had confused it. Eric most certainly did not remove it as you say. He removed the fixed version while misrepresenting the full-length interview article source as an opinion piece. The statement is in the source: <quote>There is nothing flash or aggressive about the editor of The Ecologist. The first thing you notice is how gentle he seems.</unquote>. For whatever reason many interviews describe him as 'genteel', 'soft spoken' etc. That's probably why it remained. I've never suggested it Has to stay. If I had to guess (OR) it might be because he speaks in RP or similar; regardless, even if it sounds silly to us it's what reliable sources say. The claims and names the user's tried to insert are inappropriate, as is their conduct, and the user's been told by multiple people they're unsuitable in any WP biography. 92.30.111.99 (talk) 14:19, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

The user has just posted the following WP:NOTTHEM/MPOV-style conspiracy tirade, acting exactly like they did in their previous declined unblock requests:

"the Goldsmith family are multi billionaires who can afford many servants ... all it takes is for one or two servants to gang up on a human being ... These people are well versed in Wiki robo language and can bully their way to success ... subterfuge"

including yet more smoke and mirrors talking about the wholly different Edward Goldsmith article, failing to accept -- choosing instead to talk about a statement a registered user added in Aug 2008 -- why adding "human chocolate bar" sourced to a pov/attack piece into the Zac Goldsmith article having made wholly unsourced accusations suggesting that person (of Jewish ancestry no less) is a nazi on a talkpage is unacceptable. They continue their personal attacks. This has to stop. 92.30.111.99 (talk) 17:40, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Restoring from archive as instructed at top of page. This remains unactioned after sitting for more than 7 days, which I think is explained by this board's talkpage that says sometimes threads get forgotten. I recognise it's a difficult case compared with some here, but I urge an admin to take a look and give it consideration.
The user's blp violations are important; the personal attacks and disruptive editing, including ignoring any concerns (instead commenting on an unrelated issue in the article or different article entirely) when raised, directed to unregistered and registered users alike were the basis of their past block and are clearly a pattern. 92.30.111.99 (talk) 16:28, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

I would guess that the reason why comment trailed off is because Eric144 appears to have stopped editing soon after this matter was raised. Looking into their editing history, this account appears to be fairly infrequent and now orientated toward one topic. Should they reappear and make similar edits, put up another post and link to the archived version of this one - or nudge me on my talkpage. Otherwise let this matter be for the time being, the article is in fair shape now. LessHeard vanU (talk) 19:42, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

That could be it. The various activity was repeating each time they logged in, inc. here, though like you say editing appears to have stopped. Thanks for taking a look, appreciate the response. Taking all considerations into account, what you suggest is probably best. 92.30.111.99 (talk) 21:25, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

The so called unsourced document was by Guardian and NYT journalist Jonathan Friedland in the Guardian which 92.30.111.99 seems to think is a tabloid. The other one (posted by 92.30.111.99) was ridiculous nonsense about Zac being a gentle person accoding to his mother. It was removed with scorn by an intelligent user. The same user also removed another very biased edit by 92.30.111.99 by commenting He didn't "refute" the claims, he denied them". This is someone with an agenda. I am not happy at all with the attacks made on me. I have no idea how to do advanced wiki editing and never will.

--Eric144 (talk) 11:00, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

By the way, Jonathan Friedland is a very clever man. He writes for the Guardian and New York Times and he is Jewish himself. Not likely to be antisemitic then.

--Eric144 (talk) 11:21, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

This all started when 92.30.111.99 sent me a warning saying the article was unsourced, then said it was from a tabloid. Why was I sent a warning from a total stranger on preposterous grounds ? It is actually from a distinguished international journalist in the Guardian. If any one of you people wants to know the editing history, it is all recorded. Why don't any of you you do that ?

--Eric144 (talk) 11:33, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Please also note that RolandR has come to my defence and called out my accuser on his deception.

--Eric144 (talk) 17:58, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

The contributions of 92.30.111.99 have consisted almost entirely of highly biased edits of Zac Goldsmith's page and an obsessive vendetta against me, contacting various adminstrators.

--Eric144 (talk) 15:07, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

User:Irvine22 socks

Please take a look at User:Willy Haupt-Stauner, User:Helmut Stauner and User:Max Stauner who are currently vandalising articles associated with User:Snowded. The users are highly likely to be sock puppets of indef banned User:Irvine22. Thanks, Daicaregos (talk) 20:54, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

• All blocked indef as vandalism-only accounts; I agree they almost certainly are Irvine22 though. Black Kite (t) (c) 21:54, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Draganparis, GK1973

• Draganparis (talk · contribs · logs)
• GK1973 (talk · contribs · logs)

...and GK1972 (talk · contribs · logs) and 95.89.18.134 (talk · contribs · logs), 87.202.19.91 (talk · contribs · logs) and 87.202.48.23 (talk · contribs · logs) (I think all Draganparis, many make posts with his name) have been fighting and battling in their various incarnations across my talk page, several ANI threads and Talk:Saints Cyril and Methodius, as well as edit warring at Saints Cyril and Methodius. Draganparis had a NLT block which has been removed but I haven't issued anything more than warnings and words of advice to both parties - largely to Draganparis at this time. The discussion is all over my talk archive and Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive212 Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive595 and most recently here. I'm posting here, again, because I'm tired of having to deal with this myself - it is beyond my meagre skills and I plead for another admin(s) to take a look.

I proposed an interaction ban a while back but consensus showed that to be too harsh. However, the users and their various IPs have turned all sorts of places into a pointy battleground, and despite a number of attempts to make both parties step back, have tea, drop the stick, desist, RBI, words of advice and so on, (see ). This sniping has got to stop, I'm having my username thrown about the discussion pages in reciprocated accusations of "he did this against me but nothing against you" etc. Neither of them are innocent, and I need another body to assist! SGGH 23:12, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

All above users notified. SGGH 23:15, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

I do not understand what the problem here is. What have I done that is deemed incivil in any way? If this is about my removing the following comment ], I think that anybody who reads it will agree that the "discussion" initiated was off topic bordering on incivility. My explanation for removing it was : "removing senseless potential battleground" which was exactly what it was. Some IP that has nothing to do with me engaging in a senseless uncivilized discussion with another IP (presumably Draganparis). I did not say anything about anyone having to be blamed or something, I just protected the discussion. If SGGH is suspecting that I have anything to do with any IPs, I encourage him to check me out, although there is no statement about any socks here and I clearly state that I have not made even ONE contribution as an IP, so I do not know nything about any "sniping". I also did not occupy myself or any other user with my unresolved case against DP considering it obsolete, especially after DP (again presumably) retired. Someone (an IP, DP?) wrote on SGGH's discussion page that "The editor GK removed another Draganparis’ civility appeal edit in spite of your warning. Is he mocking at you now?" What civility appeal and what does this have to do with anything? I guess that every concerned user's duty would be to check this fight before it escalated. Is there anyone among you here who would not consider this particular exchange of words "a potential battleground"? Well... whatever... just check it out, check me out, check anything out and let's formulate some, I don't know, charges for me to know exactly what to answer...

Oh... and it seems funny, how DP uses third person first in his "complaint", as though he is some neutral editor (albeit IP) and then proceeds to make a second comment in which he claims he is DP... GK (talk) 01:28, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

..And GK 1972 (plus all the other Greek IPs) is also NOT me but someone mimicking my name. The slight difference in the number used should be a clue, but if there is any doubt, again, please check me out. GK (talk) 01:31, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

GK1972 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) blocked indef for username violation. -FASTILY 02:01, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Removed GK1972. As for GK1973, I don't suspect you having anything to do with the IPs, I know they are Draganparis. Secondly, I am not bringing any "charges against you", I am bringing the situation in its entirety here because I have too much else going on to deal with it satisfactorily on my own, and I am tired of DP throwing my name about in the continuing arguments between all parties. I don't know how the proportion of responsibility for this continuation of battling lies, I brought all parties here equally so another admin can decide. SGGH 09:33, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

OK SGGH, I understand. There is no problem on my side. If there is anything I can help or anything that any admin would like to ask me, I will be happy to answer. As far as I am concerned, this is another disrupting effort on the part of "retired" user Draganparis to attack me (presumably because of my removal of his "discussion" above, in which actually the other part was the problem) and yet another admin (that is you) of impartiality etc... I stopped giving his accusations any credit or importance long ago, and refrained from answering him as you already know and anybody can check. If there is anything I can do to help, please message me. GK (talk) 13:57, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

If the rule is that one should let be insulted on these pages and should not complain - I admit I acted against such concept and would admit of an error of opposing to such a rule. However, I do not think this to be the spirit of Misplaced Pages. A small effort by the administrators to warn for uncivilized tone would have, I believe, beneficial effects on these pages.

BACKGROUND. This is a sequel of the dispute that I have let go. here is just a short comment, for the administrators to understand the motives. The disputes on Cyril and Methodius pages and on the number of pages on Ancient Macedonia are politically biased. In fact on the C&M the current dispute about Greekness of the missionaries (just about one word!) lasts already for over 4 years. One group of the editors, a group of the same editors I presume, constant for many years now, have been changing their user names, collaborating permanently in various not verifiable ways, all this with the intention to maintain one concept, a concept that they, missionaries, were Greeks, that the Alexander the Great was “Greek king”, that the ancient Macedonians were “more Greeks then the Greeks themselves” – something that is actually claimed! The user’s name change serves a trivial purpose: to misled the new-comer administratiors I would think (Xenovatis-Anothroskon, Miskin to may be GK1973 and to GK, and may be some other names). This missionaries problem is of course of little relevance for the others who are not Greeks or may be not “modern Macedonians”, the modern Macedonians who are also quite eager to call them, the missionaries, not Greek but, for example “Macedonian”. But the mention group is a Greek group and is particularly effective, although small. Every “intrusion” if more serious, they try to remove. I pushed the issue of strict evaluation of the sources and this broke down the concept of the group, incited them to start insulting me and made the entire issue hard to resolve. Now I practically accepted not to change the term “Greek” (although not documented but somehow natural) for term “Byzantine” (what is more neutral expression and I think better). However, even after the end of the discussion, they continued with the insults and I rebelled. This what we find now here is a sequel of the mentioned dispute. The sequel being just a problem of the civility on these pages. This is important because the method that the group uses against some successful contra argument is, between others, intimidation and personal insults. If the user would then react with more intensity, the group would, acting in concert, try to remove him. This case is therefore a sequel of a successful removal of one “intruder” – me.

Therefore, the issue is simple. Some editors have been insulting me, I called for civility. This did not stop them, they intensified the insults and my edits have been PARTIALLY removed by the same user - I presume with the intention to remove some expression of my goodwill and make the administrators judge in their favor. The administrator(s) permitted this all and have been warning only me for “disruptive editing” (which, these editing, were my calls for civility!) and were not warning the party that produced EXPLICIT insults.

More specifically to the above problem raised by SGGH:

I ISSUED THE WARNING that GK1972 address may be a misuse, so there is no point discussing it here. The mentioned IPs belong as follows: 95.89.18.134 - is my lab computer; the IP 87.202.19.91 is in Athens; the IP 87.202.48.23 is also in Athens.

GK (alias GK1973) and Simanos have been insulting me for months (at least 10 times they called me a “layer” and used other insulting names without even showing where the untruthfulness was. This was at various placed, talk pages, mentioned administrator talk page, ANI investigation page… I just complained against incivility. My complaints were interpreted by them as disrupting editing and new insults and incivility mockery continued. I disclosed my personality hoping that this would make them behave in more civilized way. The insults continued. No administrator EVER reacted. To denigrate me, I presume, GK1973 started removing parts of my friendly calls for civility!! I know for three occasions, there could have been more, it is hard to follow all of this. I retired then from Misplaced Pages. The insults unfortunately continued even in my absence. Since my personality has been known now I could act as an UNREGISTERED known user. I complained again. GK removed my call for civility again. The Administrator(s) were permanently warning ME instead of the SIDE that was permanently, over 3 months, insulting me in spite of my not being anonymous any more.

The cause of this situation: In my opinion the administrator(s) missed to warn the editors for incivility and this made them confident to continue, what produced then that the entire issue exploded. Solution is also simple and logical: The uncivilized party should be prevented from insulting me, and I will not have reason to complaint on Misplaced Pages discussion pages. The problem will then disappear. (Draganparis) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.53.139.223 (talk) 10:12, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand... Does DP claim that this edit this edit as well as these were made by someone else and not him? If so, then this IP should immediately be banned for disruption and usurpation of the identity of another editor, posing as DP all the time... GK (talk) 16:26, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

My mistake.The 95.89.18.134 is my lab computer. Sorry for the confusion. I now corrected MY OWN edit above and corrected some English also which was quite bad, since I wrote it in hurry. (Draganparis)

User:91.198.174.202 (toolserver IP / AIV bot blocked)

Is 91.198.174.202 (talk · contribs) a logged-out bot? Everard Proudfoot (talk) 04:30, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Seems that way. I have blocked it. Crum375 (talk) 04:34, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Wasn't the consensus against blocking AIV bots, even logged out? They run from the toolserver IPs . Pcap ping 05:40, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I believe that was the consensus, so I've unblocked it. —DoRD (talk) 00:25, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

After you've unblocked it, it has made more logged out edits. I had notified User:ST47 of this, but he doesn't have access to the tool server now. Is the bot maintained by someone else now? Pcap ping 06:57, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Andewz111's signature

Andewz111 (talk · contribs)

How I found this user isn't important. What is important, is that they are using a template in their signature. Given how numerous signatures are, this is now a large cleanup issue. I don't know if they are going to take my warning to heart or not, but I would feel better if an admin echos my words at their talk page.— Dædαlus 05:22, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

User notified.— Dædαlus 05:25, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Given that this template is already transcluded on 71139 (exact count as of 1 minute ago) different pages, I don't see what the issue is. NotAnonymous0 did I err?|Contribs 05:35, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

So, Daedalus969, tell us, what were the results of the previous discussion you had with this user over their signature? --Jayron32 05:49, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

I can change the signature to the standard. ] (talk · contribs) (typo intended) 06:02, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Sig changed. Inform me of any more problems before this gets resolved. Andrewz111 (typo intended) (let me know) 06:06, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Jayron, this discussion is not about this user changing their signature, it is about the cleanup issue involving what it previously was.— Dædαlus 06:09, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

The important thing is that the sig is changed to prevent the problem in the future. Andrewz111 (typo intended) (let me know) 06:32, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

U.U

I am sorry for not notifying you. I notified myself. I just realized. :/ — Dædαlus 07:25, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

No worries, that's a mistake anyone can make. —MC10 (T•C•GB•L) 15:34, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Ronnie James Dio

Went to update Ronnie James Dio on the untimely passing of the rock singer (and creator of the Devil Horns) and the page is locked down due to vandalism. Could an admin add the passing and this reference? - NeutralHomer • Talk • 06:40, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

You didn't need to come here. Use {{editprotected}} on the article's talk page with the change you wish to make. - UtherSRG (talk) 07:03, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

And he's not dead. - UtherSRG (talk) 07:09, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

You are correct....OK, so I went with the immediately release of information. Oh well. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 07:29, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

So you were going to add news of someone's death to a BLP based on a post on a rumours website? Top marks to whatever clever admin protected the page to prevent that. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 12:29, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, it was the first story I came across. Admittedly not the best link I could have picked, but the only one available according to Google. Oh well, didn't happen, so all's well that ends well. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 12:37, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, looks like you were right after all, as his death is now being reported everywhere. It is good to make sure that being right takes precedence over being early. Tarc (talk) 20:46, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

I think the first instance was just "jumping the gun" to pardon the pun, but the second time is the real deal. Still sucks. - NeutralHomer • Talk • 08:46, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Protection from new editors?

Can Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Hackforums be protected from editing by editors that signed up only to comment on the AfD? Joe Chill (talk) 14:16, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Not commenting on the question, but in the meantime the Single Purpose Account tag will at least highlight the problem to other !voters and to the closer. TFOWR 14:21, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Users seem to get quite worse in AfD when that is used. Joe Chill (talk) 14:23, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

It has been protected. Please mark as resolved. Joe Chill (talk) 15:25, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Michael Winner

Copied from WP:BLPN because this has potential PR implications (consider Michael Winner's reputation for acerbic comment in his newspaper column). I can't do the necessary line-by-line fact check due to jetlag, having just this morning returned from a week in the States on business.

There have been exchanges of email which I have merged together under VRTS ticket # 2010041710014178. This includes an official biography which I copy by permission at Talk:Michael Winner/Bio. This is, of course, not presented with inline sources and the style is not compatible with our manual of style, but I would appreciate it if people could cross-check for factual inaccuracies since Mr. Winner's office is (perhaps understandably) unwilling to spoon-feed us with specifics. Guy (Help!) 14:42, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Latham & Watkins

The period edit war on this page has flared up again. I have no clue which side is "right", but one keeps adding some stuff and another keeps deleting. Probably several 3RR violations by now. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 15:23, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Fully protected for a period of 24 hours, after which the page will be automatically unprotected. NW (Talk) 15:27, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Per tradition, can I suggest that you may have protected it at The Wrong Version? It looks to me like several editors were reverting one Special:Contributions/Lawgazer SPA. No objection to protection, but I suspect right now one editor is thinking "brilliant!" - and it's possibly that editor that should be encouraged to talk... TFOWR 15:31, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

The subject now is the same as it was a year ago - some dispute over that firm having laid some people off. There's someone with an axe to grind, and someone else who doesn't like it. But I don't know which one is "right". ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 15:34, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

I've fixed some of the links in your post, TFOWR. —MC10 (T•C•GB•L) 15:53, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

No worries! TFOWR 16:00, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Trouble is, we've got dueling SPA's. A one-shot redlink added this stuff on April 7, then today another SPA redlink started deleting it, while some bluelinks kept restoring it. But who's "right"? My recollection is that the stuff about layoffs was considered POV-pushing a year ago, so leaving it out (as it stands right now) could be the "right" version after all. But I'm not 100 percent certain. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 15:57, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

This does indeed go back to a feud that was running through much of last year, particularly through the summer months, as one can tell from the history. It centered on the now-indef'd user Lathaminfo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)'s efforts to make the article a coatrack about layoffs (it would be reasonable to assume he was personally affected by those layoffs). There were various apparent socks and other redlinks that got their mitts into it. It quieted down fairly much, once Lathaminfo was sent to the Phantom Zone, but it was apparently still simmering and has now boiled over again. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 12:30, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Apparent Edit War on What They Died For

I have come across what appears to be an edit war on What They Died For (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), involving inclusion of a plot summary. The arguments appear to be that: the episode has aired to a select number of fans, however, other users are deleting the plot summary as either unverified, or as spoilers. The spoiler argument is obviously invalid per WP:SPOILER, but I feel some sort of administrator may be needed, as it appears some editors may have broken the 3RR rule. Brambleclawx 16:00, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

I reverted it to an earlier, much shorter, & obviously incorrect version, then semi-protected it for 52 hours. (That's an off-the-cuff calculation for when the episode will actually be first broadcast to a sizable audience; another Admin with better math skills is welcome to modify the time.) Whether or not they are spoilers (& the producers have been known to leak misleading information about future episodes), this is clearly unverifiable information at this writing. Now let's all get back to something more important -- like worrying about unfounded allegations of child pornography on commons. -- llywrch (talk) 16:39, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Judith Reisman

While on Huggle this morning, I noticed somone blanked this page, simply leaving a message saying 'Please delete this page'. I reverted it, and then a couple of minutes later, an account called Judithreisman done the same, only this time said that the page should be deleted due to 'deflamatory and libel content'. I reverted it again, but left a note on the user's talk page informing them I had e-mailed Wikipeida. I have had no response. A couple of minutes ago, I received this message on my talk page:

FROM JUDITH REISMAN TO WIKIPEDIA

Gentlemen: I am in another country right now and was informed that Misplaced Pages was again using people who are long time pornography and pedophile lobbyists to defame me. Jimmy Wales had to correct all this a few years ago and now its back. This site ridicules my scholarship and undermines my professional reputation (legally this is interference with advantageous relations). For example, the representative from the Institute for the Advanced Study of Human Sexuality in San Francisco who you pose as a credible source to assault my pristine child sexual abuse research, has sold its own home made child pornography to Hustler magazine while Wardell Pomeroy, their former "dean" is on record as soliciting funds from the Adult Video Association to film child pornography at the IASHS. Their BOOK, Meditations on the Gift of Sexuality is a picture book of students, faculty, staff and friends engaged in illegal sexual orgies (circa 1977) including what is clearly understood today as child pornography, and my research has exposed their "institute" as a bogus "scientific" establishment in great detail. The same facts apply to your other critic. I could go through your entire entry for the slanted coverage, libelous and trivialization of my findings but I simply demand that you remove my entry from your site. It is wholly untrustworthy. Thank you for your immediate attention to this issue, Judith A Reisman, PhD —Preceding unsigned comment added by Judithreisman (talk • contribs) 15:55, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

I think that this requires urgent attention, I have posted relevant riffs below: The message on my talk page Presumably her IP Different account Her account

Thanks, and if you have any questions please contact me on my talk page. Acather96 (talk) 16:23, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

I've left her instructions on her talk page on how to address this with the foundation and semi protected Judith Reisman given the multiple sock issue. Toddst1 (talk) 16:28, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

WP:BLPSELF may be of some interest to Judithreisman (talk · contribs). —MC10 (T•C•GB•L) 16:48, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

• The claims invoke Jimbo and have also been made via OTRS. I have emailed him to ask what additional info I need in order to handle the ticket properly. I would suggest that the tone of the complaint makes it unlikely we can easily handle it through normal Misplaced Pages processes, involving as it does the implication that anybody who edits the article in an unsympathetic way is tied to the commission of dreadful crimes. This is not really very collegial. Guy (Help!) 19:43, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

• I'd also like to point out that gross BLP violations do NOT automatically become acceptable because they're being committed by a complainant, and the above claims (including the assertion that a respected sexual researcher like Wardell Pomeroy--a co-author of the Kinsey Reports--"film child pornography") fall squarely under its remit, so Misplaced Pages should not be publicising these border-line libellous claims. --CalendarWatcher (talk) 12:42, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

• This New Yorker article may provide some necessary background. --CalendarWatcher (talk) 12:46, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Persistent copyright violations for four weeks

Claireea9 (talk · contribs) has uploaded 27 copyrighted images, all of them without any tags, FURs or what-have-you, since April 18th. They have, for the most part, been deleted or nominated for deletion; a few have dealt with by kindly editors.

Given that the user has received plenty of warnings and information, has presumably read the material at Misplaced Pages:Upload (impossible to avoid seeing it, certainly!) and for some reason ignored all this. Their mainspace editing also leaves significant room for improvement, to say the least. I propose that this clearly disruptive editor is blocked. ╟─TreasuryTag►voice vote─╢ 17:16, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

I've left the editor a note also. I will block this editor in an hour or so if I get no response, anyone else can block earlier and I won't cry. Dougweller (talk) 17:27, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I already blocked (Doug, you hadn't commented here before I started the process, I would have held off if I'd seen it). I suggest keeping blocked until they acknowledge their problems, and address them. --Floquenbeam (talk) 17:37, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks—I think it's for the best! ╟─TreasuryTag►Woolsack─╢ 17:39, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Thanks for saving me the trouble, Floquenbeam. Dougweller (talk) 21:02, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Account renamed and now editing under two guises

930913 (talk · contribs) used to be known as A930913 (talk · contribs) until they were renamed a over a week ago. Being a relatively new user (and also a single-purpose account, though that's another story...) they made the understandable mistake of still logging into their old username and editing with it.

They were warned to stop this just minutes after being renamed (May 6th) – but they're still editing with their old username, having ignored the warning from the bureaucrat Nihonjoe (talk · contribs).

I'll notify to both talkpages; could someone please give them a final warning? It's confusing and inappropriate for them to continue as they are, and especially when they've already been clearly told. ╟─TreasuryTag►prorogation─╢ 17:56, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

To be fair, they are claiming they can't login to the 930913 because they don't know the password. This doesn't really make sense, though, as the same password have transferred over to the new username. Not sure if this might be a bug which doesn't allow usernames with all numbers login, or something else. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 06:00, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

User:Samofi vandalism, personal attacks

Just need a quick intervention against this user, the situation needs urgent admin action. The user is out of control with personal attacks coupled with vandalism of an article currently under afd. Some personal attacks (edit summary): Also see the contribution history of the user. And a large number of vandal reverts on the same article ( all within 1 hour) All this most recent outburst seem to be connected to an attempt to post his personal essay as a wikipedia article which was deleted . I will not go into deep detail here as this needs fast reaction, but there are some other issues as well. Hobartimus (talk) 18:12, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Once already blocked for disruptive editing for 48 hours, this seemingly had no effect at all. The danger here as if these actions continue unhindered he might try to influence other editors as well such as . Hobartimus (talk) 18:44, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

No personal attack, in my opinion is Hobartimus paranoid and anti-slovakian, its my POV and not personal attack (i did not use bad words and word "fascist" as is in wikipedias rules). Check what he does. In article about Slovakization is not definition of Slovakization, no reliable sources about this topic. Its about Czechoslovak-Hungarian population exchange and about Slovak-Hungarian relations and re-Slovakization (its not Slovakization). Article is considered for deletion second time, from different editors but its here lot of Magyar nationalist so they keep article. I tried to save article and hold the substance of article. But he and other Magyar editors are not able to undestand that. I made lot of new articles and Iam here almost from the begin of Misplaced Pages and I had problems only with Hungarian nationalist. I made lot of articles in Russian, English, Slovak wikipedia. Some changes in Polish and Czech. Please check Horbatimus activities against my person. He from the "his principle" delete all my contribution even if I put relevant sources or arguments. He should be blocked. --Samofi (talk) 19:01, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

The above is a good example of how this user operates. He writes "I tried to save article" and yet he has TWO separate delete votes in the afd debate of the article . It is also notable that this user was warned as early as 2006 by User:Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry refrain from changing "articles to insert your own pro-Slovak/anti-Hungarian point of view." Even though most of the time since then was spent as a "sleeper account" now In my estimation it is clear that this user is not here to contribute positively to the encyclopedia. Hobartimus (talk) 19:15, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Unlogic, how I can vote 2x from one account??? I wrote 2x delete in my speech, but vote only 1x. Its defame. Its my personal thing what I did 4 years. I was active but less. I was study to not be stupid and I was active at russian and slovak wikipedian. You put not verifiable sources to article http://en.wikipedia.org/Černová_tragedy its vandalism. Slovakization was not defined, so all article has not theoretical background - so no legitimity for article. Again manipulation with my words, admin should look all discussion in afd - I wanted delete article in form as it is now, or rename to re-Slovakization, or completely change content. Now its synthesis with sense of antislovakian propaganda. Its here more Magyar editors who tries to hold monopol about Magyar/Slovak history and relations. Its lot of old and new books from English, Czech, Slovak, Romanian authors about falsification of history from the side of Hungarians, here is neutral one: http://books.google.com/books?id=ih_muDscIY8C&pg=PA300&dq=hungarian+falsification+history&hl=sk&cd=2#v=onepage&q=hungarian%20falsification%20history&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?ei=o3HwS_ymA9KkOPW3qKEI&ct=result&hl=sk&q=hungarian+falsification+history&btnG=Vyh%C4%BEad%C3%A1vanie+kn%C3%ADh http://books.google.com/books?id=R7phyBbqZDoC&pg=PA23&dq=hungarian+history+falsification&hl=sk&cd=2#v=onepage&q=hungarian%20history%20falsification&f=false Its problem of education in Hungary and problem of clima in Hungarian society (crisis, false of history, bad relations with neighbours, poorness, chauvinism, nationalism) that Hungarians are not able to accept that true can be somewhere else. Or it can be 2 or more trues. --Samofi (talk) 22:40, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

I was going to stay out of this as Samofi is not the only one with issues at Slovakization, or its AFD, but I cannot stand by and be called something I am not. I have voted to keep the page (and thus have been called by Samofi Magyar editor and nationalist) which is a typical assumption by this edd, I am not Hungarian and have never even been to the country (i have never even eaten Goolash). He claims to be trying to save the articel, but it was his PROD that had the page nominated for deleteion (and hye has in fact voted for deletion) (twice)). He has asscused me of not understanding what the page is about ] after I provided sources using the term in the context of the page.Slatersteven (talk) 19:15, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

1. I wrote it before you voted for keep, so its irelevant - nothing against you. I was not too much active here, but in russian wikipedia and in slovak wikipedia yes and I had no problems. I study this topic so I know more than you about this, you know almost nothing about this topic according to your sources about slovakization, I will cite you: " *Comment The term certianly exsists, and is even contested as a theory ] ] now the only question is how notable is this as a concept?Slatersteven (talk) 20:14, 15 May 2010 (UTC) "

You mixed articles about history of Slovak language who was based on Czech with article about re-Slovakization. Nobody from you guys in the page gave me clear definition of Slovakization. Its fact, so I dont see legitimity of this article. I did not voice twice, my account is only one - from one user is one vote so I can write delete 100x with one sign and it will one delete and one vote. --Samofi (talk) 22:15, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

I was just doing a word search to determine if the word actualy exsists (I would argue the first set in an AFD is to see if whatever it is might exsist, if i had found no referance at all then delete). As I said more work was not needed to determine actual notabilit. I have now provided a number of sources that talk about the subject using the term (Hungarian and non-Hungarian (not that nationality matters)). By the way you said (on this page here) more then an hour after I voted that you wrote 'but its here lot of Magyar nationalist so they keep article' and 'But he and other Magyar editors are not able to undestand that' as well as 'I had problems only with Hungarian nationalist' So do you see why I thought you were saying I was some kind of Hungarian Nationalist?Slatersteven (talk) 22:31, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

I told in global, persons to who I wrote it knows it and they are silent about it. Only you noticed this, hungarian nationalists not. --Samofi (talk) 22:49, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Are any admins reading the above posts of Samofi? And also ? If it weren't such broken English it would be more, evident, but I think it's a safe guess that he is under the impression, he can continue making attacks while writing in general (global in his word). "I told in global, persons to who I wrote it knows it", a block is really needed here. Hobartimus (talk) 23:55, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Its your problem you dont understand my english, its not against rules. I was warned with admin Dougweller, from that time I told nothing personal to you. So calm down. And dont put to my mouth something I did not say. Hobartimus has good fantasy. Please admis check my talk page http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Samofi. Hobartimus gave me warning against the rules of wikipedia according to article about . I put there information about Slovak King. He was called Slovak King, I put sources and other Hungarian editor (Baxter9) adjusted it and confirmed. Its bullying from the side of Hobartimus to my person. --Samofi (talk) 00:50, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

There never was a "Slovak King" any time anywhere during history as there was no "Kingdom of Slovakia" ever, trying to push these types of radical fantasies in any manner shape or form only confirms that your presence is a net negative for Misplaced Pages. Also this user's comment that others don't understand English is certainly an interesting observation to say the least. There is another reason to check Samofi's contributions, as significant damage can be done to quality of text by editing articles with such a level of English as he displayed above and elsewhere. Hobartimus (talk) 01:50, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

It was according to Dangl, based on corespondention between Hungarian noblemans. Baxter agreed its on the talk page. It was not Kingdom of Slovakia, but it was Slovak land from 16th century as geo-ethnical area according to Heltai Gáspár encyclopedy. You try to delete all conections of Hungarian Kingdom with Slovaks.--Samofi (talk) 09:52, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Since Doug has some minimal involvement, I've asked him for any input. Samofi, while poor English isn't necessary a problem, it becomes questionable when I see someone with such poor English arguing about English language sources in such volume, I have questions as to what's going on. Honestly, it seems that assuming good faith is not clear to you. Nonsense like "Hungarian users are not neutral." is going to get you blocked from here and for a long time I'm afraid. There exists article talk pages for a reason but right now I need some indication that you aren't just trying to ram this topic here because of an improper motive. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 03:34, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Iam able to read english. I have not academic knowledge of english, but I was in England few months and I read english books. Its not improper motive. In a both AFD of Slovakization the all Hungarian editors had completely opposite oppinion as Slovaks. They are not neutral, same like Slovaks are not neutral. Its bigger problem as to block me. 2 different understandings of history. I will not block, If somebody say about my topic to which I put 20 sources that its in my head such Hobartimus did I have right for defence. --Samofi (talk) 09:52, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Despite my warning and his statement above, in the same paragraph he manages to attack Hobartimus. Combined with his apparently using Misplaced Pages as a battleground for his pov, and the fact that his level of English combined with his prolific editing are, I agree, a detriment to our articles, I'd support a block now. I came within a hairsbreadth of issuing one last night. Dougweller (talk) 05:16, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes I must do it. I put neutral english sources to Černová tragedy. In rules in Misplaced Pages its written that: "Because this is the English Misplaced Pages, English-language sources should be used in preference to non-English ones, except where no English source of equal quality can be found that contains the relevant material." Why he can use Hungarian sources from Jew-Magyar internet magazine written by Manager, with name "Hitler Hlinka"? Its 3 scholar english books supported my theory - written by not slovak authors. He deleted one my book. I only comment his activity with right words. Its here equal and more equal? I was writing about this slovak/hungarian topic with Joe Daly from Wikipadia info center before I started more actively edid, I put sources and he wrote that I can improve wikipedia. If I would blocked I will mail him and I will refer about: using of magyar non-english and not neutral sources in slovak/hungarian issues supporting hungarian right, I will report about deltion of relevant english sources from articles by magyar wikipedians, I will refer about bullying from Hobartimus who nominates article for deleteing few seconds after it was done, or he deleted my changes few seconds after it was done, he had not chance to read sources what I have used to support facts, few seconds after I nominated Slovakization for delete he was for speedy keep. Dont you see who is bullying to who? Its still no definition of Slovakization from relevant source and article is still exist. I did not start battelfield with deleteing of Hungarian sources (after 2010). It was Hobartimus who did delete connections of Slovaks with Hungarian Kingdom. What is his role in Misplaced Pages? Use magyar sources and support hungarian POV of history? --Samofi (talk) 09:52, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, I had "some" difficulties with Samofi.:) Although sometimes it's really hard to understand him, the main problem is that he doesn't want to adopt the wiki rules and he continues contributing as he thinks. I asked him several times to read WP:RS, WP:OR or do not add a fascist (please note that according to him that site is only "patriotic") webpage as a "reliable source", but his answer was "Fuck of u mutherfufker! Do you think Stefanik was fashist? Fuck your muther you shithole" Note that he still keeps adding unreliable homemade webpages or blogs as sources to support his pro-Slovak POV.(, , , , ) I also tried to understand him (see his talkpage) and his views, but it was a complete waste of time. He never showed reliable sources (but he thinks that Encyclopedia Britannica is unreliable: "but you make citation with stupid encyclopedia britannica") just his extreme opinions, like Slovakia (i.e. an independent European country which exists since 1993) existed before under different names (he also tried to add this into article Slovakia). He insulted me several times when I removed his unsourced nationalst edits: "you are hungarian jingo", "Hungarian chauvinist", "antislovak Baxter" or other Hungarians, and even Hungarian political parties like FIDESZ ("maybe FIDESZ are more close to fascizm"). Samofi's another favorit issue is the ethnicity of "famous people from Hungary"). The best example is, perhaps Tivadar Csontváry Kosztka who's Polish ethnicity is well referenced, but since Samofi thinks that he was Slovak he turned the talkpage of the article into a forum where he tried to push his pro-Slovak POV, regarding the issue of the article and others like (the ethnogenesis of the Slovaks, the ethnic composition of the Kingdom of Hungary, and the old "Slovakia existed b4 1993 etc). The best example is this.--B@xter 10:22, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Blocked

Given that these articles already fall under WP:ARBMAC, I'm actually surprised this editor lasted this long. Are we really down to nobody dealing with these ethnic warriors? Normally, once bit of language like that and we have post after post on ANI from every direction wanting to ban each other. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 10:31, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Good block. Good riddance. Pcap ping 15:39, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Except that it falls more under WP:DIGWUREN than under WP:ARBMAC. The Balkans are a big place, but Hungary isn't part of them. Other than that, no objection against blocking, obviously. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:07, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Vandal came back

User_talk:173.162.255.177 vandalized the page of Robert_de_Sorbon after his temporary block expired. Evenfiel (talk) 18:12, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

WP:AIV is the place to go next time, by the way! ╟─TreasuryTag►consulate─╢ 18:14, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

User:Almico

I am uncertain if this requires the attention of admins, but I recently found a page about the software SpeedFan. After noticing the username of the author, and the producer of the software (both User:Almico), I decided to report it here. Also, all of the user's contribs are about their own products. Again, I am not sure if this is a problem, but I do remember hearing something about no companies making their own articles, so I just put it here.  A p3rson ‽ 19:15, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Vandalism only account

User:Cashismom was opened today, making edits related to Cashis. Only edits have been vandalism or adding unsourced promotional material. , , , , , , , . Was given warnings , . "Her" response on her talk page was "You don't know Ca$his, so why are you purposely attempting at sabotaging his information? Seems like a hater at work. I'm going to contine to make changes and have the rest of his family and label, make the correct revisions daily. Until you get it right." and on my talk page: "Why are you putting up non accurate information regarding Ca$his? I'm making changes to prevent you from looking like a fraud. You must not know him at all. I'm his mom. We can keep making changs all day, if you'd like.". Has been reverted by at least 3 different editors. Niteshift36 (talk) 20:16, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

• Has blanked the page again, replacing it with the artists website: . Niteshift36 (talk) 20:24, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Go to WP:AIV. NotAnonymous0 did I err?|Contribs 20:24, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Never mind, user is already reported. NotAnonymous0 did I err?|Contribs 20:27, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

• AIV was backlogged and the editor was active, so I chose here.Niteshift36 (talk) 20:33, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

IP-hopping user making trouble

• 174.217.56.254 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 70.208.92.151 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 174.217.186.7 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 69.138.165.244 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 65.114.157.23 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)

Trouble is occurring at The Game (U.S. TV series). I originally thought it was a simple case of edit warring (see the edit-warring noticeboard discussion here), but this user appears to be hopping IPs rapidly to restore their version of the article (which contains multiple grammar, spelling, and style errors). Above are just the IPs they've shown up at in the past few hours, but I'm told by the article's regular editors that this has been a long-term problem, and they suspect a banned user, but I haven't been able to determine which one they suspect yet. As the edits are rapid I thought I'd report this here anyway for now. I would've opened an SPI, but I have no idea who the sockmaster might be (so I had no username to put in the SPI page title :) ) If I'm still in the wrong venue let me know... I don't deal with this sort of thing very often. Equazcion 21:15, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

User:Pinkadelica just told me she suspects User:Lilkunta, if that helps. Equazcion a 21:21, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

(ec) :As I said on the article talk page and on my talk page, User:Wildhartlivie and I have been dealing with this user (who is probably User:Lilkunta but I could very well be wrong) for some time now. They're bound and determined to restore the article to their preferred version (poorly written content be damned) and only start communicating when the page is locked. If they can't get the page unlocked, they cry to the admin who locked the page or anyone who will take the time to listen to them. The best route is to probably just to protect the page which I have already asked for. Pinkadelica 21:25, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

I endorse everything that Pinkadelica and Equazcion have said here. Most of the IPs traceroute back to the same myvzw.com links. Wildhartlivie (talk) 21:28, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Hello. I am not ip hopping. I am not lilkunta. I feel wildhartlivie is bound and determiend to restore their version. That which I have added is soucred and truthful. wildhartlivie's version is past tense. I have updated tenses, information, directors, and showrunners, cast, and more. Why not integrate the infrmation we both have 69.138.165.244 (talk) 00:28, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

That is factually untrue. Many of the IP numbers listed go back to the same address. This is about your use of unacceptable sources and edit warring. The article history page and the identical edits made by those same IPs are the issue. And this is not about me, it is about your conduct and violations of policies. Don't try and obfuscate what is going on here. Wildhartlivie (talk) 00:54, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

User:LUCPOL engaging POV-pushing

I'm having a few difficulties with the user LUPCOL who I feel is trying to engage in POV edits. On the List of fighter aircraft, he has repeatedly tried to add the Su-35 as 4.5th gen fighter aircraft despite the fact that other editors have reverted his edits to this effect. A citation in the article provides a list of criteria that qualify a plane as a 4.5 gen aircraft. The citation is from an official US Government document by which ALL other 4.5 gen aircraft on that article are specified as adhering to. I've tried to explain my rationale for reverting his edits but I don't feel that LUCPOL is interested in the citation.

Thanks, Vedant (talk) 22:28, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

MiG-35 and Su-35BM have the same designation "4++ generation jet fighter" (equivalent to international standardization - 4.5th generation)" source for MiG-35 and Su-35BM.

1. Why remove only Su-35BM?
2. Where is written about Mig-35 in United States government ?
3. "...other editors"? No - Only you me reverting.
4. US GOVERNMENT specifications? What it - the king of the world? This is Russian fighter, is considered to be 4.5th generation by Russia.

LUCPOL (talk) 22:37, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

1. All other aircraft on that list do meet the 4.5 Gen standard including the MiG-35. The Su-35 on the other hand does not, as it has a PESA radar instead of the required AESA radar.
2. User:Ao333 seems to have an issue with its inclusion as well.
3. I never said they were kings of the world, what I did state is that ever other aircraft on that list meets those standards. The Su-35 does not does not belong on that list. The specifications provided by the US Government are recognized to be a standard on the article (one which you have not provided). Using your logic; I could create a company and start manufacturing paper airplanes while calling them 10th generation stealth-bombers with an ultra-low radar cross section and internal weapons bay (capable of dropping paper chunks) along with the ability to cruise without engines.

Vedant (talk) 22:44, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

"Su-35 on the other hand does not, as it has a PESA radar instead of the required AESA radar."? Su-35 have radar AESA.

"The Su-35 does not does not belong on that list." - you show that list and MiG-35 inscribed on it.

LUCPOL (talk) 22:52, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

1. The Su-35BM is equipped with the N035 Irbis-E passive electronically scanned array radar, it is not an active electronically scanned array radar. See
2. I don't follow you. I already said that the MiG-35 was a 4.5 Gen aircraft because it's equipped with the Zhuk A/AE AESA.

Vedant (talk) 23:00, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

LUCPOL, please note that "4.5th generation" is neither a standard nor is it international. For example, The People's Republic of China labels what both the United States and Russia call "5th generation" as "4th" and what the US calls "4.5th" as "3.5th." It is merely a marketing term coined by American aircraft manufactureres, which was later officially adopted and defined by the US government. The contentious issue is that you think the Russian 4++ equates to the American 4.5th, which is erroneous. The list has always followed US conventions. As such, if you wish to contend, you have to provide the article with a stringent definition from a non-commercial (eg, government level) source that exempts the Russian 4++ from the US 4.5 definition, or convince the public by establishing your claim through Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (aircraft) (with a stringent non-commercial, English source) that there should indeed be 2 standards. SU-35BM's absense in the Indian MRCA competition should be plenty of food for thought.Ao333 (talk) 10:32, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Administrators, please ignore this complaint. It appears that LUCPOL and I have reached an agreement regarding this and there are no further issues. In the future I will take this to a DR forum should similar issues occur.

Thanks, Vedant (talk) 12:50, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Is blocked editor RyanG222 continuing to edit?

Interestingly there is a lot of overal between 87.209.107.24 (talk · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log)) and
RyanG222 (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki). There editing patterns and some of the articles including those related to Esmée Denters match up. I'm wondering if in line with the recent AVI i took against him here (which led to his ban) if the IP and RyanG222 are one in the same? Lil-unique1 (talk) 22:51, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps you should submit your information at WP:SPI.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:56, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

As a pre-caution i've gone ahead and done that. I just thought since it was admins here who blocked him they might like to know about it.Lil-unique1 (talk) 23:18, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

There are admins over there too. Never fear.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:27, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Blocked user

Extended content

Threatened by Bugs, I withdraw any complaint. After all, I don't give a F about some vandal fighter, if they are wrongly block, life is a bitch. Assorg (talk) 06:13, 17 May 2010 (UTC) Nothing to see here. –MuZemike 23:59, 16 May 2010 (UTC) Could somebody please review the User:White Trillium Case. I believe it is a mistake. 76.114.33.30 (talk) 23:43, 16 May 2010 (UTC) Quit forum-shopping. One post is enough already. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 23:47, 16 May 2010 (UTC) The checkuser did not make a decision. Either the blocking is wrong or the blocking admin, Tim Song, is such a poor writer who cannot communicate valid reasons for blocking. Reviewing the past 6 edits for White Triullium (just reviewing the non-minor edits), all are constructive and some are vandal fighting. Therefore, Tim Song (administrator) is guilty of supporting vandalism in Misplaced Pages. Once again, the blocking admin needs to be more clear and less sloppy. Either Tim Song is block happy or is unable to communicate sufficiently. Both are bad traits for an administrator. Assorg (talk) 05:50, 17 May 2010 (UTC) The above has been here less than 4 weeks, and is lecturing admins on their behavior. Good idea. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 05:54, 17 May 2010 (UTC) Based on that, all college students should shut up and not become involved in politics or political protests since they are young. All I ask for is transparency. A simple explanation on White's user page is sufficient for this matter to be closed. Assorg (talk) 06:07, 17 May 2010 (UTC) If that user is concerned about it, he could defend himself. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 06:10, 17 May 2010 (UTC) He also posted an unblock request for WT while logged in as himself. I sense a 'Plaxico' in the making. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 05:58, 17 May 2010 (UTC) I don't know who the fuck Plaxico is but it sounds derogatory. All I am asking for is a detailed or even one paragraph explanation especially since there is no reason given. Yesterday, an innocent child was killed by the police in Detroit. Where's the outrage - actually there is. When someone is killed in Misplaced Pages (blocked) and there is no explanation, there should be outrage at least until a suitable explanation is given. I am outraged because someone tried to hide the ANI post by collapsing it. There seems to be a 2 editor conspiracy to cover up. The solution is just either unblock or a simple explanation. If someone is an administrator, they should have sufficient writing skills to offer an explanation and not act like the Detroit Police. Assorg (talk) 06:05, 17 May 2010 (UTC) There is no constitutional right to edit wikipedia. And I guess you never heard of Plaxico Buress, who took a gun to defend himself, ended up shooting himself, and now sits in prison. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 06:08, 17 May 2010 (UTC)|} Moved from WP:AN Hello, I am here to complain about User: Tim Song and his unjustified blocks. Please help me? 76.114.33.30 (talk) 23:38, 16 May 2010 (UTC) and who are you? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 23:42, 16 May 2010 (UTC) Taken from AN/I and written by them: "Could somebody please review the User:White Trillium Case. I believe it is a mistake." Kevin Rutherford (talk) 23:48, 16 May 2010 (UTC) Let's see here, User:White Trillium has been CU confirmed to be editing from a residential IP in the West Coast. The IP geolocates to the West Coast and looks residential. The IP is also complaining about White Trillium's block. Quack anyone? Elockid 23:57, 16 May 2010 (UTC)  IP blocked 24 hours for block evasion. NW (Talk) 00:25, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Archiving bot misconfiguration?

I checked the WP:ANEW noticeboard to see the status of my recent report and noticed that it had been archived with no action taken! diff Is this a misconfiguration of User:MiszaBot II? Shouldn't it stay on the noticeboard until some action is taken? If the configuration is correct, why wasn't an {{Admin backlog}} placed by a bot when it reached a certain point? Acps110 00:17, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Check the above diff more carefully. Sweetpoet was blocked 24 hours by Dougweller for edit warring. There is no dedicated bot for the 3RR board; it uses conventional archiving by MiszaBot. EdJohnston (talk) 02:50, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

ANI Helperbot editing while logged out

91.198.174.202 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) The ANI helper bot is editing while logged out, not sure if this is the right place to report this.--SKATER 02:50, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

See also discussion above. Pcap ping 07:01, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Slovaks in Hungary

Could an admin take a look at this please. Beyond My Ken (talk · contribs) unilaterally decided to userify it (it's now at User:Samofi/Slovaks in Hungary), and this to my mind amounts to an out of process speedy deletion and as far as I can see it meets no speedy delete criteria anyway. I notice that the page creater (Samofi (talk · contribs) has now been blocked but given the input by Baxter9 (talk · contribs) I'd suggest the page needs to moved back to main space and proper deletion procedures followed if someone wants to go down that route - the mess with speedy deletions and moving the page more than once means I can't revert things. Dpmuk (talk) 10:43, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

• It's a monograph with sourcing and WP:SYN issues (plus the user's English is not great), userfying is the best way of helping the user to develop the article while avoiding an otherwise inevitable deletion debate. Guy (Help!) 12:03, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Can you point me to a policy or guideline on userfication? While I accept that userfication may be the way to go this should not be done without the user's permission as otherwise it's a speedy delete in all but name and a user should have the option of following the normal deletion process if they so desire. It is my opinion that involuntary userfication should only occur in lieu of a proper deletion (either by speedy or AfD) and then done by an admin. I am also of the view that this is the only course of action in keeping with current policy. In this case the page was not a speedy candidate, nor had an AfD been completed and the userfication was not done by an admin. This case is also complicated by the fact that another editor has edited this page and they may wish it to be kept. Dpmuk (talk) 12:17, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

How about WP:BRD?

Loook, I don't see the problem here. The article was a mess, clearly not ready for prime time. There were empty sections, poor writing, lots of bad formatting, eerything about it said "work in progress." I could have deleted everything in it that was wrong, or spent an inordinate amount of time trying to fix it up, but instead I went with B and userfied it. If people think that's a mistake, they should R my action and the D can begin -- I'm certainly not going to edit war to put it back in userspace. I do think that the creator should be aware, though, that if it's moved back into mainspace, there's every probability that it will be AfDed and deleted. (That's not a threat, I wouldn't nominate it, but given the condition of the article, it's almost a certainty that someone will.)

I think the only real question here is whether the article, as is, is an improvement and benefit to the encyclopedia. I think the answer is clear that it is not. It certainly can be, with some amount of work. If it's not beneficial, it shouldn't be in the encyclopedia, and I don't believe it takes an admin to make that determination. In general, we don't insist on process for the sake of process, so if (as you seem to agree) userfication is the best course of action, it's rather irrelevant how it was arrived at. Beyond My Ken (talk) 12:55, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Personally I feel your actions were wrong as they amounted to a speedy deletion and speedy deletions which don't fall under any of the criteria are generally frowned upon and additionally I've never heard of BRD being applied to deletions. In the case of deletions I do think we should insist on process. It's also clear precedence at AfD that the bad state of an article is not a reason to delete. That said that's just my personal view - as there is currently no policy on userfication I am happy to accept others will have a different point of view. I would not have brought this here if it wasn't for the fact that I couldn't revert myself. (As an aside I've now started a RfC on whether the current userfication essay should become a policy or guideline). Dpmuk (talk) 13:09, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

It's not a deletion, it's right there in userspace, in exactly the same condition it was, ready and available to be worked on. If the creator wishes other editors to help in developing it, a note dropped on the appropriate WikiProject's talk page will surely bring some. As I said, if you disagree strongly, get an admin to move it back. (You could have moved it back yourself if you hadn't prevented the speedy deletion of the cross-namespace redirect I requested.) I don't think that's in the best interests of the article or the encyclopedia, but YMMV. Beyond My Ken (talk) 13:23, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Unless I've missed understood WP:MOR I could not revert as your addition of the speedy delete tag meant there was more than one line in the page history. I generally take very complex deletion requests (such as this) here rather than speedy delete tag them so that I can explain things properly and discuss if need be. As I say it was not meant to be a complaint about your conduct as at the moment there is no policy or guideline on this so we're all free to do what we think best.

(As an aside it is my view that userfication should be treated the same as deletion as it removes the page from the view of normal readers although I accept views may differ on this. Although only (currently) an essay WP:Userification states "Userfication of an article will effectively amount to deletion of an article" so I'm not the only person that holds that view. I may have been more willing to let this one slip by if it wasn't for the fact that two editors appeared to be working on it.) Dpmuk (talk) 13:37, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Just to state the obvious, userfication is not the same as deletion because with deletion the article is no longer available to anyone except administrators, while with userfication it's off the beaten path, but it's still around and available for development. It is, in fact, no more "deleted" than any category, template or image, which all exist outside of mainspace in their own namespaces. Beyond My Ken (talk) 14:53, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

• Beyond My Ken is correct; this isn't a deletion, so there's no problem with BRD. I've deleted the cross-namespace redirect; if you want to move it back to mainspace, go for it. If someone wants to nom it for speedy/PROD/AFD, they can. This userfication was a polite way to try to fix things, IMHO; BMK should realize by now that no good deed goes unpunished. (struck by request) --Floquenbeam (talk) 13:31, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Most certainly. (Nothing to respond to.) Beyond My Ken (talk) 13:37, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Well I disagree that it shouldn't be treated the same as a deletion and from the essay I am not the only one, so I don't like the tone of Floquenbeam final comment, we obviously disagree but that's no need to accuse me of "punishing" Beyong My Ken. As I've said I brought this here to get the move reversed not to attack a user's conduct - we may disagree on the correctness of his move but I understand their point of view and can't fault them for doing it. Dpmuk (talk) 13:43, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Move reversed and AfD started here. Dpmuk (talk) 13:50, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

In my opinion, this is pure process wonkery. Have fun. Beyond My Ken (talk) 13:51, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

BTW, you've AfDed an article while the creator is indeffed and will not be able to speak for it. The only real reason to insist on the strict application of process is in the interest of fairness to all parties -- In what way is that fair? Beyond My Ken (talk) 13:56, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Hang on a minute, so I haven't got round to notifying people a whole five minutes after I started the AfD, give me a chance! Now notified along with the other user that had made significant contributions. Given the creator's banned status I'll keep an eye on his talk page. Dpmuk (talk) 14:11, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

That was a badly misjudged action. The article fails core policies (WP:NOR, WP:NPOV and WP:V since the sources are mainly unacceptable) and against the weight of those policies you are erecting some pettifogging objection about process. The result is that the user gets a WP:BITE for his pains, since the article cannot possibly remain as it is in mainspace. Instead of allowing a period for the user to fix the several issues, you have placed a thoroughly non-compliant article back in main space where an AfD is an inevitability. I really cannot see how that is a good result for the user or the project. Guy (Help!) 15:25, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Well sorry, although I respect your view and can understand it, I completely disagree with it for two reasons. The first is I think new users would find it more bitey if an article is userified without any discussion or indeed explanation on their talk page. I also think it would make them wonder how wikipedia is run if a single editor, who doesn't even have to be, and in this case isn't, an admin, can unilaterally removed their article from the encylopedia. Personally I think newbies would prefer to see an article end up at AfD where there can be some feedback and they can properly understand the process. If delete and userification is the result of the AfD at least they'll know why and understand that it's been done by WP:CONSENSUS, another one of wikipedia's core policies. Secondly I think we would be setting a dangerous precedent if we allowed anyone to userify page just because they want to. There is currently no consensus on userfication and so I think it should only happen when a page would otherwise be deleted (i.e. after an AfD or if it's eligible for speedy). Dpmuk (talk) 16:11, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

You are correct, it really doesn't aid any editor to have their work removed from the encyclopedia without informing them of how they might make it better. At least a deletion review will have participants, discussion, points and suggestions and things. Allowing users to get around the deletion process and establish a consensus all on their own to userfy, but at the same time not help with the improvement of the article, is just wrong. No-one has mentioned the third option that someone might come across the article in mainspace, if it were there, and decide to help make it encyclopedic, if possible. Not everyone rushes to delete. Userfying without discussion gives no room for improvement, allowing random people to userfy things they don't like just gives them free reign to bypass normal procedures of improvement or deletion. Weakopedia (talk) 17:47, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Uncivil and unwiki post by talk

Here user User talk:Breein1007 dropped something on my Talk-page. He could & should use the article's talk instead, of course, and has no need to use "what the hell". Just a notification for now. Of course I will flush the stuff from the talk shortly. Whatever happens from here. -DePiep (talk) 21:40, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

What is it exactly you want people to do? Kevin Rutherford (talk) 22:33, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

isn't it obvious? He's trying to use AN/I as a weapon, treating WP as a battleground, to get an ideologically opposed editor sanctioned. Momma's Little Helper (talk) 23:05, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

I know that, I'm just wondering what they want people to do about it. You don't normally complain and then suggest no action to better the situation. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 23:47, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

"What the hell" is not going to arouse the "shock horror factor" in anyone; least of all the seasoned readers of this page. I suggest you answer his question politely and move on.  Giacomo  17:53, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

User:Mk5384 / Pink Floyd

Mk5384 (talk · contribs · count · logs · block log · lu · rfa · rfb · arb · rfc · lta · socks confirmed)

A rather unpalatable edit war has occurred lately, across two Pink Floyd albums; The Final Cut (album), and The Wall. I've already reported this matter on the edit warring noticeboard, but so far no action has been taken.

I'd appreciate further comment on this, and some action if necessary (a word in his ear perhaps). While any editor is quite right to ask questions, highlight problems, and make bold edits, this user seem only to believe that he is right, and that everybody else (well, me) is wrong. He seems to be no stranger to edit warring; I've noticed several reports on this very page concerning this user's behaviour, and I believe he's also been blocked for it. I have had to stop interacting with this user, in case I begin to comment on him, and not his edits.

While I don't hold with Misplaced Pages's civility policy, I must say its quite difficult to remain calm when faced with this. His latest edits, just now, are to remove perfectly valid cited text from The Wall, in the mistaken belief that the citation does not back up the claim made—it does. I've asked him to re-read the source provided, but he refuses to do so. This is a blatant violation of WP:3RR, his second in less than 24 hours.

Is anyone going to do anything? I'm not inclined to continue reverting his changes, for fear of being blocked myself. This editor has no such regard. Parrot of Doom 14:55, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

I protected The Wall a bit before you posted this. Discuss it on the talk page, and perhaps someone could actually quote the cited source to back up an argument?—Kww(talk) 14:59, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. Would you mind reverting to this version please? If you can read it, this is the source which claims that The Wall is a rock opera. The revision linked is the version of the article with this citation, and is the version which MK5384 has been reverting. Parrot of Doom 15:12, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

• I've blocked Mk5384 for 2 weeks. –xeno 15:06, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Two weeks seems a little harsh to me, I'd have thought a day or two only, just to let him calm down? Parrot of Doom 15:12, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
    • This is part of a repeating and apparently escalating pattern from this user, unfortunately. Guy (Help!) 15:14, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
      • Well I'm no expert, and while I'm not his biggest fan its only his methodology I have a problem with, not his willingness to contribute and improve these articles. Perhaps he might benefit from being mentored? Parrot of Doom 15:22, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
      • (edit conflict) Indeed, the block length is intended to prevent further disharmonious editing. I note that has been twice indefinitely blocked. (After ec) @POD: Is there a willing mentor available? I am willing to consider reducing the block with conditions. –xeno 15:24, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
        • Well, when it comes to working with this editor, I think I'm out of the picture... Parrot of Doom 15:29, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
          • Based on a further review of the history of The Wall, it looks like you (Parrot of Doom) also broke 3RR at and didn't discuss at Talk:The Wall#changes. At this late stage, I'm not going to block you, but keep in mind that edit warring of this nature is not acceptable and you should discuss at the talk page before continuing to participate in an edit war. –xeno 16:29, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
            • Well its a good job you didn't, because I don't think I exceeded the 3RR rule. I made a change, Mk5384 immediately reverted it, I examined my edit and corrected it. Mk5384 then presumed I'd not made any corrections, and immediately reverted. I then made three reversions before posting here. Parrot of Doom 16:42, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

← Here's my count:

1. 18:36, 16 May 2010
2. 22:10/19, 16 May 2010
3. 06:58/07:28, 17 May 2010
4. 14:07/10, 17 May 2010
5. 14:17, 17 May 2010
6. 14:31, 17 May 2010
7. 14:43, 17 May 2010

Looks like a violation of 3RR to me? –xeno 16:49, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

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