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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Ultramarine (talk | contribs) at 14:56, 25 January 2006 (→Original research). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Russian famine of 1921–1922 was nominated as a good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (No date specified. To provide a date use: {{FailedGA|insert date in any format here}}). There are suggestions below for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated.

Genocide

• It is policy that it should be obvious to any reader coming from the category to the article that the category applies, and why it applies.
  • Therefore add the evidence for genocide first, and then apply the cat.
• Describing even the Holodomor as genocide (rather than, say, mass murder) is iffy, although the case can be made: it requires that Stalin have cared which peasants he starved.
• In 1921, asserting even that Lenin intended mass death, and the consequent loss of resources to the Bolshevik state, is questionable. He could have caused millions more deaths by a simple, obvious, and feasible course of action, which he did not take.
  • Instead he reversed foreign and domestic policy so as to alleviate the famine.
  • Asserting that he intended to destroy any "national, ethnical, racial or religious group" goes well beyond the evidence.
• None of this denies the argument, made in the article and by several sources, that Bolshevik dogmatism was one of the causes of the famine.
• I presume that Ghirlandajo did not intend to remove either sources or supported text by reversion.
  • Doing so knowingly would be vandalism.

Septentrionalis 16:53, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

The categorization of Holodomor should be argued there. Frankly, I have only the weakest opinion on the subject.

Unjustified categorization of this article for that purpose is a violation of WP:Point, which is also policy. (For whatever it may be worth, the Famine of 1921 did starve many in the Ukraine, as well as Russia proper. That being said, I regard the comparison of body-counts for purposes of deciding which nationalism can yell "victim" loudest as a contemptible exercise; worthy of summary reversion, independent of all other considerations.) Septentrionalis 15:54, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Tsarist

I have reverted an edit that changed the spelling "tsarist" to "Czarist". I agree that a capital letter is appropriate, but I think the Ts spelling is more accurate than the Cz one. Witness the entry for Tsar: 'The spelling tsar is the closest possible transliteration of the Russian using standard English spelling'. Rbreen

Failed Good Article

There are no inline references and no images or even tables. joturner 04:04, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Odd. The relevant good article requirements

• the article be referenced.
  • It is, to quite decent printed sources, which are probably more reliable, on this subject, than anything on the web.
• that it contain images if possible.
  • I know of no relevant available image with secure provenance, and decline to adorn with random pictures of the Kremlin.

Septentrionalis 21:56, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Original research

The claim of a "second civil war" against the peasantry is unsourced (as is the entire paragraph to which it belongs). The Trotsky paragraph should have a source noted in the References; is it the Life of Lenin? - and why should the reader have to guess? Septentrionalis 01:23, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Trotsky attributes blame many times to external conditions for the famine, whether in his Military Writings or his autobiography, "My Life." Furthermore, I don't see why my addition after the Kennan mention was deleted. If this is done, it seems that it would be better to put Kennan's finger-pointing in the "Charges and Countercharges" section, which I am going to do. (70.237.240.189)

It wasn't deleted: it was moved, because it interrupted the paragraph (implicitly) sourced to Kennan. I don't dispute the Trotsky quote, but do find it; if the present link says anything, please add the words to the article. I can't find them here. Note that it must cover 1921-3, after all but the Japanese had withdrawn; not 1918-1920. Septentrionalis 05:20, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

As this goes on, my patience in waiting for the citation diminishes. Septentrionalis 05:50, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Ultramarine's estimate of up to 10 million dead is not supported by his sources. Matthew White quotes no estimate for it separately higher than Furet's 5 million, and some lower. If it comes back with the same sources, it should be removed. Septentrionalis 05:24, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I will continue to put George Kennan's affixation of blame where it belongs: in the Charges and Countercharges section. It doesn't even (implicitly) interrupt the flow of the paragraph anymore, considering the recent changes. Any relatively objective observer will see that finger-pointing does NOT belong in a purportedly objective historical exposition. (70.237.240.189 07:37, 25 January 2006 (UTC))

Deletions of sourced material

Unfortunately, someone is instantly deleting the well-referenced material I am adding. Also, the person is inserting POV and unsourced material regarding Lenin's responsiblity. The grain sales started well before his illness. See this diff, all the statements are well-sourced

• Former good article nominees