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• Talk:Maharishi Mahesh Yogi/Sources

References

Thirty Years Around the World

• Mahesh Yogi, Maharishi. Thirty Years Around the World, Dawn of the Age of Enlightenment , 1986, ISBN 9071750027

This book is used as a reference 27 times, far more than any other single source. According to Worldcat, it is only found in 5 libraries in the whole world. It's not available for viewing in either Google or Amazon. It qualifies as what some would all "relatively un-verifiable". I don't want to mark call 27 citations for verification, could if anyone has access to the volume could they please post the relevant excerpts? If no one has access to it maybe we should remove those cites.   Will Beback  talk  03:21, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

I'll give it a month.   Will Beback  talk  05:24, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

I'll see if I can get a hold of a copy.-- — Kbob • Talk • 18:54, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

• I've started the process of adding citation quotes-- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:56, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Thanks for adding those. I know how tedious it is to transcribe material from a book. "Summary 1958: The first countries he visited on his first wold tour were Burma, Thailand, Malaya, Singapore, Hong Kong and the USA (Hawaii)." Is that how it's written? In the secondthird person?   Will Beback  talk  00:34, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
    • The page heading is Summary 1958 and the rest is an exact quote from the page. Nothing in the book is written in the first person (except some quotes from the Maharishi's lectures here and there). I will slowly add all the quotes.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 01:25, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

I went ahead and tagged the citations, just so it'd be clear. Reminder: we still have verification request for the Coplin dissertation. I've got it on order but if that falls through then it's unverifiable.   Will Beback  talk  06:38, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure I can get Coplin if that falls through. Sorry you had to order it. TimidGuy (talk) 10:56, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

More talk on 30 Years Around the World

If Paul Mason's biography is a reliable source then it should probably be our main source, rather than the self-published memoir we're using so extensively now.   Will Beback  talk  17:39, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Thirty Years Around The World is self published but its an historical account of the Maharishi's activities from 1957 and 1964. It is self published but I think its a valid source on a BLP for info like, places he traveled etc.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 11:55, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Anytime we're using an intermediate source to report what a second source is saying we should include both sources. So we should say, "According to the Maharishi, on December 31, 1958, the Honolulu Star Bulletin reported about him saying..." However I suggest we limit the use of the Maharishi's memoirs to simple travel info, and avoid anything about what others did or said, or any self-serving claims.   Will Beback  talk  18:41, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

I should clarify that the book is about Maharishi and his trips around the world. Maharishi is not the author, so better to reference the book title. Sentences that reference news articles we can research are not contentious or unduly self serving and could also be researched for corroboration.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 15:17, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Oh? Worldcat lists the Maharishi as the author. Amazon does too. If not he, then whom?   Will Beback  talk  00:11, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Even the MUM library lists the Maharishi as the author. Why would you contradict those three sources and say that he didn't write it?   Will Beback  talk  00:16, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

OK good to know. Practically speaking it is clear that Maharishi is not the author, although he probably had editing oversight (but that's just my opinion). In any case if he is universally listed as the author by reliable sources then we should go with that. Thanks for checking on that point.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 21:34, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

You seem to be the only one who believes that.

• In 1939, he became a disciple of Swami Brahmananda Sarawati, who was based in the Indian Himalayas, and decided to be a monk. 'The first sight of his personality was enough to make me surrender at his feet,' the Maharishi wrote in his 1986 book "Thirty Years Around the World: The Dawn of the Age of Enlightenment."
• "Right from the beginning the whole purpose was to breathe in his breath," the Maharishi wrote in his "Thirty Years Around the World: Dawn of the Age of Enlightenment," published in 1986.

I hope we won't be making any more edits based solely on our own theories.   Will Beback  talk  22:26, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Melton Citation

I removed the Melton ref because it didn't seem to support the sentence it followed.

• On December 31, 1958, the Honolulu Star Bulletin reported about him saying: "He has no money, he asks for nothing. His worldly possessions can be carried in one hand. Maharishi Mahesh Yogi is on a world odyssey. He carries a message that he says will rid the world of all unhappiness and discontent."
  • Encyclopedic Handbook of Cults in America, J. Gordon Melton, Garland Publishing, 1986

Maybe it got moved from another sentence, or was left over after material was moved or deleted.   Will Beback  talk  00:23, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

• • • I agree, that citation seemed oddly placed. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 21:00, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Rethinking the Lead

I have created a subpage for this talk page where editors can list reliable sources for this article.Talk:Maharishi Mahesh Yogi/Sources To begin I have assembled the subject's obituary's that were published in 20 of the most prestigious newspapers and news services from around the world along with 2 regional US newspapers. In doing this I have noticed a significant discrepancy between how the major news services characterize MMY and how he is characterized in the lead of this article.

• Wiki Lead, first sentence: "Maharishi Mahesh Yogi (Hindi: महर्षि महेश योगी) (born Mahesh Prasad Varma, January 12, 1914, died February 5, 2008 in Vlodrop, Netherlands) was the leader or "guru" of a new religious movement, often called "Transcendental Meditation movement".
• News Service leads: Out of the 22 sources listed hereTalk:Maharishi Mahesh Yogi/Sources 20 of them make no characterization of MMY as leader of a religious movement or TM movement. Only one regional paper uses the term "religious movement" and one national paper uses the term "TM movement".

Instead, almost all of these national and international news services describe him as "guru to The Beatles" and "the man who founded and/or introduced Transcendental Meditation to the West". I suggest, that we edit the lead to more accurately reflect these sources.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:52, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Want to pitch us a version, Keith and then we can tear it to shreds? Just kidding!! Want to propose a draft for discussion? --BwB (talk) 19:14, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Garbage in, garbage out. Many of those "22 sources" are just reprints of the same reports. Writing our article based on the first lines of selected obits is not the best process. Basing our article on the entire obits, and then basing our intro on our article, is a better way to proceed.   Will Beback  talk  03:48, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Also, a couple of them are the announcements of his death, rather than the actual obits. I'd fix them, but I don't think this is a sensible way to proceed. We're writing an encyclopedia article, not a newspaper article. Do editors here really want the first line of this article to say that MMY was the Beatles' guru?   Will Beback  talk  06:03, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree with your statement "Basing our article on the entire obits, and then basing our intro on our article, is a better way to proceed." We should then look and see, how many of these widely respected and internationally known news sources, who give an overview of the subject's life in their articles, characterize him, anywhere in their articles, as:

• the leader of a 'new religious movement'
• the leader of the TM Movement
• giggling guru
• His Holiness
• disciple of Brahmanand Saraswati, Shankaracharya, Jyotir Math
• discuss honorifics ie Yogi, Maharishi etc.
• refer to him as Varma

All of the above info is mentioned prominently in the first two paragraphs of the current lead. They seem to be points of trivia rather than summarizing the article as a whole. I would like be sure we are conforming to Wiki policies and TM RFAR item #4 which discusses, neutrality, verifiability and weight.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 13:11, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

By that logic, we should also check to see how many obits use footnotes and include scholarly references. If most don't then should we remove those from this article? No. We're not writing a newspaper obit. We should certainly make sure that we include all of the important events and themes in the subject's life, but we don't stop there. In particular, the way we organize encyclopedia articles is different from the way newspaper articles are organized. On Misplaced Pages, we discuss the names first.   Will Beback  talk  20:20, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Also, if we're going to use "widely respected and internationally known news sources" as the basis for this article, instead of scholarly sources (!?), then let's at least make sure we're using respected and known news sources. The "Cleveland Leader" and "Entertainment Weekly" probably don't qualify. However, I think we'd be better off basing the article on the best biographies we can find. Mason's is the only full-length, independent bio available, though I presume that Coplin's dissertation, if it was actually available for anyone to read, would also qualify as a high quality source.   Will Beback  talk  20:42, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

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