Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Ezhiki (talk | contribs) at 21:25, 26 January 2006 (→Administrative divisions of '''the''' JAO: examples). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

*Archive 1
*Archive 2

Advice

Glad to hear you're doing better. If you want my advice of the matter, I'd first say you should take things one point at a time. Changing all of them makes it much more susceptible to a revert because of individual changes. I recognize the location issue is the most important to you (though I think it is for DG as well). So here's how I see it. Disambigs are primarily used for navigational aid between Misplaced Pages articles, not ideas. So, if the topic is truly that important, the location theory, perhaps you should write an article about it. This would present the theory NPOV-ly with its detractors and supporters. If you are up to that (which is, after all, more important for the encyclopedia than battling over a disambig), and it might need to survive an AfD, then it would need to be in the disambig. Without an article, the case for it's inclusion seems more strained, since it's seems to be overreaching out of POV. Dmcdevit·t 08:19, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Moving the dragon

The procedural concerns are valid (though see my points in the archived discussion) but there was a reasonably solid majority for the form I preferred. By the admin's count the vote went 21/15 in favor of it and after that it was discovered the User:CDThieme had voted with his sockpuppets, bringing the human vote on one side down a few notches.

On the other hand this really wasn't worth spending so much time on and I probably should just have let Jonathunder have his way at the time and spent the time writing articles instead of arguing about spelling. - Haukur 22:17, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Like many proceedural points, this has substantive implications, however. It has now been demonstrated that someone can unilaterally move an article between the Anglicized and Icelandic spellings, and be fairly sure any appeal to WP:RM will result in no consensus. And remember, this works for moves in both directions.

I expect this to happen again. Whatever the merits of the present case, I think this is a bad thing. It means a lot of futile WP:RM discussion, and it will not encourage comity. The way to suppress it is to establish a custom of status quo ante, so that the unilateral move will have no advantage over the proper course: bringing such moves to WP:RM in the first place. Septentrionalis 17:50, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate your point and I too think that Process is Important. But I would really like not to go deeply into this again. Jonathunder and I have since had rapprochement and the next time a debate occurs it will hopefully be in a more cordial atmosphere and I think we will at the very least manage to agree on procedural issues. For the record I don't want to push my views through some bureaucratic or procedural loophole against the will of the community.

The procedural issues were discussed at length at the time. If you have the patience for it, and I wouldn't really recommend it since it makes for aggravating reading, most of that discussion can be found in Talk:Níðhöggr/archive1, Wikipedia_talk:Requested moves/Archive_5#Gaming_the_system and Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive56#CDThieme_sockpuppetry.

Incidentally I'd like to invite you to give your view at Talk:Grœnlendinga saga on the name of the article. All the best. - Haukur 23:04, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Oh, one more link from the procedural discussion Though, as I implied, there are a lot of more fun and productive things to do than wading through this. - Haukur 23:13, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

answer

I've answered your question at the bottom of Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee Elections January 2006/Candidate statements/Netoholic. Hope that clarifies my position. -- Netoholic @ 19:56, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

R. J. Rummel

Thanks yes I read the answer by Septentrionalis, but as I had not moved the mouse over the name I did not realise that Septentrionalis was an alias for User:Pmanderson. I have not replied to you posting there because I think you have answered all my questions on the issue. --Philip Baird Shearer 00:41, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Welcome back

I just noticed your return. Welcome back! -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 01:02, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, I've always regretted the decision of registering under my real name, so I changed my username as soon as I found out it was possible. Other than that, I'm trying to figure out a way to keep up with my watchlist... -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 01:25, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Just noticed that you were back today, again, welcome back - your contribution is always welcome at the Democratic Peace Theory page, which has gone rather quiet recently and even, believe it or not, been labeled as a good article! Robdurbar 13:06, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm, on a mostly unrelated subject, you might want to take a look over this AfD vote on a POV fork. -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 03:18, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Ultramarine

I have to go on what I feel when I recuse. I can't just go on what seem to be the facts. If I can't make a fair decision I need to recuse. I wrote the original article which contained prominent links to totalitarianism and dictatorship and addressed the massive human rights violations which have resulted from Communist Parties seizing power without democratic support. The current article seems to me pathetically lame, being barely factual and essentially unsourced. I don't think much of Ultramarine as an editor, but not much of his opponents either. There was very good reason to recuse. I was so upset that I created a fork, originally spending my own money on hosting. There is no way I could have been fair to anyone involved. Fred Bauder 14:21, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

DPT

Sorry, I wasn't aware that edits on this page were ongoing. Robdurbar 17:57, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Well Im not gonna argue over the redirects though I worry as to whether there'll just be another edit war on this article... Robdurbar 10:31, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Again, Im happy for you to make the changes... I must admit I would have created an article 'studies concerning the dpt' rather than 'stuides supporting the dpt', but hey ho :) Robdurbar 17:03, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Sorry mate - you're probably right - but as you can probably tell, I've lost patience with the whole situation (plus Im wasting all time having on List of best-selling music artists which seems to get vandalism on a more-than-daily basis) Robdurbar 23:55, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Chimaera

Thank you, Septentrionalis, for alerting me to the mediation process; I did post quite a detailed comment yesterday at about teatime, but today I see that it is non-existent. Anyway luckily it seems it wasn't crucial to the outcome. TobyJ 15:56, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Single anon edit VfD pages

Hi. I want to point out that the single anon edit VfD pages which I've nominated for deletion are not real "deletion records", but only appear to be because of their titles. No debate or discussion occurred on any of these pages, so they were probably never linked from the articles or transcluded to the VfD page. Certainly no deletions resulted from them, as no votes were cast. BDAbramson T 14:09, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

• Are you suggesting that deletions were ever decided on the basis of a single anon edit? With no other commentary, even from the person making the deletion? Actually I do know something about old VfD's - they were made in templates not in Misplaced Pages space, because the old wiki code would not permit transclusion of pages. These, therefore, were initially created in the wrong space! BDAbramson T 16:33, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Chaos theory and counting!

Hi, I answered your question there. Lakinekaki 05:27, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

If you responded to me elsewhere, you need not reply here. Septentrionalis 05:40, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Too many dubious afd descisions

That's odd. I don't recall having made many AFD descisions at all, especially not in the last half year or so. I'm puzzeled! What did I do wrong, and how can I fix it in future? Kim Bruning 20:27, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Ah yes, my first, last, and only foray into TFD. The template in question did violate policy, but people opposed its being speedied. I've mostly stayed away from most templates since then, since many templates do not contribute to the encyclopedia directly anyway.

Thanks for reminding me of that set of mistakes. I would like to point out that people who try to regularly get things done will also regularly make mistakes, as an unfortunate consequence (I'm not a politician, as you may have noticed :-) . I hope that you're reassured that I do actually learn from my mistakes, and try not to make them again. Kim Bruning 21:09, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, if it hadn't seemed heavy handed, it wouldn't have been a mistake. I finally reached a consensus with the creator of the template, who wasn't at all unhappy with me. What I hadn't reckoned with was the altered perception of admins on wikipedia. Before, admins were just nice users who'd earned some extra buttons (or at least were trusted not to blow up the wiki with them). Now apparently they're demigods (or minor demons). Seeing as I'll just be on the reserve bench by the looks of it, I hope to be able to work on that latter problem in the coming year, if possible. :-) Have a nice evening! Kim Bruning 21:35, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Oof, it's been a long time for me too. More than 3 months for sure. If I come across it, I'll drop you a line. Kim Bruning 22:05, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Wait, found here. Actually one of 2 situations might come to mind: either: Misplaced Pages:Conlangs/Votes or Template:Vote_bar. The latter being kept is a little tricky, as it needs to be watched carefully. :-/ Kim Bruning 22:10, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Ottoman provinces

In most cases I agree with your concerns about long running names and standardisation. However, there is precedent for standardised place-names as with cities in the USA. And the Ottoman subdivisions present particular problems. First, there is the case of these province names overlapping with different provinces of other countries of the same name especially those in present-day Turkey, Syria, and Iraq. For example, the Ottoman Basra, Baghdad, or Mosul provinces were radically different beasts from the current Iraqi “provinces” and some of the provinces are now their own country (Egypt, Cyprus). I would agree with the use of vilayet but most of the provinces were eyalets before the mid-19th century and some used other terms (e.g. khedivate) as well as the informal term “pashaluk.” See Subdivisions of the Ottoman Empire for details. LuiKhuntek 22:27, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

About Özi Province, you say that “calling something that included Bessarabia "Silistra Province" is just wrong.” I’m not sure what this means but the Ottoman Silistra eyalet existed for over 100 years and included the Black Sea coast from Istanbul to present-day Ukraine and at times stretched all the way to Vidin. Only one source calls it only Özi (Imber) and others explain that Özi was an alternate name for Sislistra. Özi could not have been used consistently since the Ochakiv (Özi) area was often outside of the eyalet system. Maps of this can bee seen at:

or in Paul Robert Magocsi’s Historical Atlas of Central Europe. (2nd ed.)

Donald Edgar Pitcher’s An Historical Geography of the Ottoman Empire has both maps and a text explanation of this (p.128) that cites original Ottoman records. LuiKhuntek 22:27, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

“Province of Timişoara” doesn’t use a Turkish/Romanian hybrid – it’s the current English form. None of the other provinces use the Turkish form for areas now outside of Turkey. (e.g. Bosnia, Herzegovina, Egypt, Baghdad) (And it’s no more anachronistic than Serbia for Servia, Kosovo for Kossovo, Rumelia for Roumelia, Romania for Rumania, etc.) LuiKhuntek 22:27, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Economics of fascism

That article is a POV mess from start to finish. It relies almost exclusively on libertarian authors and is slanted in their favour. The comparisons with the New Deal are just the worst part of it. But I've learned my lesson from the whole Ultramarine affair. This time, I'll look for a large collection of sources first, then go in to fix the article. Expert POV pushers, like Ultramarine and RJII (the author of the Economics of fascism article) use similar strategies: They support their POV by selectively quoting the sources that agree with them, and then arrogantly claim that their POV is widely accepted opinion (witness RJII saying in the Talk page that most historians believe the New Deal was economic fascism). Thus, the best way to counter them is to amass a large number of sources that oppose their POV. -- Nikodemos (f.k.a. Mihnea) 10:00, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Voting on Eyalet of Temeşvar

I added another rename proposal to Talk:Eyalet of Temeşvar that preserves the Turkish name: Eyalet of Temeşvar → Temeşvar Province, Ottoman Empire

Please (re-)vote if you care to.

LuiKhuntek 07:33, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Sale of the Daily Express

I have added some thoughts on the date of transfer of the Express to Beaverbrook on Talk:Cyril Arthur Pearson. Perhaps you'd like to take a look when you get the chance. Regards, BillC 00:09, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Menander

Hi, I saw that you are trying to update the article of Menander the greek commediographer, I'm very interested about greek litterature in general and drama specifically, I would if you'd like expand a bit Menander, i wrote some on menander talk things that I will do if you agree. Thanks for any of your replies. Salutem Filippus dat--Philx 13:31, 22 January 2006 (UTC).

I have expressed my opinions on the article talk page, if you agree , i'll start that section. --Philx 19:30, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

It's not the best possible for the reader, although including English translations in a bibliography should make that all right. But why not write the article for the Italian wikipedia first, and then translate, which should save both of us a bit of work, and show what you have in mind? Septentrionalis 19:38, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Sorry if i bother you, but honestly, I can't get, your point, should I translate the critics of italian wiki because critics is present there? So why not start a new section in en wiki adding italian soureces and english ones? Thank you for any reply --Philx 20:19, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi. Phil, I think he means, why dont you translate the work into Italian first on the Italian Wiki, then translate that into English and move it over here to the En Wiki. If you want me to help on this part, plz let me know. Ciao for now--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 02:03, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi septemtrionalis, I understood your point of view about the sources, i'm trying to recover the soureces in it wiki, when i'm done with the sourcing and wikification i'll start to translate, Regards. --Philx 13:01, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for voting!

Hello there! I wanted to thank you for taking the time to vote on my arbitration commitee nomination. Although it was not successful, I appreciate the time you spent to read my statement and questions and for then voting, either positively or negativly. Again, thank you! Páll 22:43, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Administrative divisions of the JAO

Hi, Pmanderson! Thanks for moving the JAO divisions article to the "the"-version; that was totally my mistake. I was wondering, however, if you would be able to help me resolve another problem of the similar kind. I am not completely sure if a definite article is needed with the names of Russian krais and oblasts (such as Primorsky Krai or Tambov Oblast). On one hand, it should be used (e.g., in the French Republic→in the Primorsky Krai); on the other hand the Primorsky Krai sounds quite silly (at least to me, but I am not a native speaker). I was unable to find any definitive guidelines regarding this, and Google returns both variants (with most of the hits being from the English-language Russian websites anyway). Any advice will be much appreciated.—Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) 16:08, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

It has generally been accepted to use "krai" and "oblast" instead of "territory" and "province". This is partly because there are no established English translations of both words ("territory" and "province" are by far the most commonly used equivalents, but they are not by any means standard), and partly because in reverse translation "territory" corresponds to Russian "территория" (territoriya), and "province"—to Russian "провинция" (provintsiya), which are separate words on their own, both of which have subsets of meanings competely unrelated to the meanings of the words "krai" and "oblast". Provintsiyas also used to be administrative subdivisions of Russia in the past, which certainly does not help matters as far as translation of modern terms is concerned.

As for the examples, here are some:

• A common construction: the government of (the?) Primorsky Krai, (the?) Tambov Oblast, (the?) Belgorod Oblast... (a complete list of Russian federal subjects can be found here).
• Standard article intro: (the?) Lipetsk Oblast is a federal subject of Russia (an oblast)...
• a fairly common sentence construction: This oblast borders the Republic of Mordovia, (the?) Vladimir Oblast, (the?) Tula Oblast,... Here, "the" before the "Republic of Mordovia" is obvious, as it would be if constructs like "the Oblast of Tula" and "the Krai of Khabarovsk" (cmp. with "the state of California") existed (they do not).

An interesting part is that when "oblast" is replaced with "province" (and "krai"—with "territory"), the definite article sounds a lot more natural: the Tula Province, the Stavropol Territory, but it still probably is incorrect (cmp. with the Wisconsin State, which sounds plain wrong unless it's a part of a construct such as the Wisconsin State Lottery).

I don't know if these examples are going to help, but if you could look into this, I'd certainly much appreciate it. My English isn't too shabby, but little things like this are what separates native and non-native speakers, and articles have long been a personal weakness of my own. I am somewhat afraid, however, that this may require help of a professional English teacher/educator. Reference materials certainly have not been of much help so far.—Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) 21:25, 26 January 2006 (UTC)