This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Surtsicna (talk | contribs) at 12:18, 3 July 2010 (→Cleaning of false monarchs). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.
Revision as of 12:18, 3 July 2010 by Surtsicna (talk | contribs) (→Cleaning of false monarchs)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff) | Serbia List‑class Top‑importance | |||||||||
| ||||||||||
List of Serbian tsars cut from tsar article
Please check if they are in listed in this article. Mikkalai 18:34, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- Stefan Dusan (1346-1355)
- Stefan Uros V (1355-1371)
- Lazar of Serbia (known as tsar in folk tradition)
- They are all there. --Tadija (talk) 14:43, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
Sebian=Balkan
Wenn I read this articel, I was thinking Balkan is in Serbia. Sorry but Serbia is only a part of Balkan.
- Rascia (Raška) it was a Bizantin Rulers
- Bosnia (Bosna) it was a Bizantin Rulers
- Doclea / Zeta it was a Bizantin Rulers
- Zahumlje / Hum it was a Bizantin Rulers
- Travunia (Travunja, Terbounia) it was a Bizantin Rulers
- Pagania / it was a Bizantin Rulers
No one of this "Serbian monarchs" is Serb they belong to Bizant Rulers.--Hipi Zhdripi 14:09, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
- This is completely pointless and untrue remark. --Tadija (talk) 14:44, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
Removed?
An anonymous IP removed Tihomir from the list of rulers... --PaxEquilibrium 15:25, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Bosnia was never Serbian state !
even though that rulers of other regions(pagania, zahumlje, etc) of serbian domain are unknown to some extent, serb rulers of bosnia(kotromanici, for example) should be listed here. --PrimEviL 18:05, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
- No, they shouldn't be listed here. This is the list of monarchs of Serbia, not a list of monarchs who are allegedly of Serbian ethnicity. The only Bosnian rulers who should be listed here are those actually ruled Serbia: Stephen Tomašević, for example. I'm not sure whether Tvrtko I actually ruled Serbia, or he just crowned himself King of Serbia and remained a pretendent only. Surtsicna (talk) 20:47, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
Why don't you remove Bosnia from the chapter "Monarchs of medieval Serbian states", its not just an extension of Serbian politics from the middle of 18.century to the recent Balkan events (war, ethnic cleansing, genocid), but also a flagrant misuse of en.wikipedia and clear and deliberate propagation of false informations, revision of the history - simply, its belong to domain of the myths spred by nationalistic mythomaniacs !--Santasa99 (talk) 18:32, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
- Bosnia and Hercegovina WAS one of serbian medieval states because:
1. ALL rulers of Bosnia was descendents of SERBIAN nobility, bosnian ruler Tvrtko Kotromanic 1377 is crowned by SERBIAN priest in SERBIAN monastery of Mileseva (which is located in todays SERBIA) as "King of the SERBS, Bosnia,coast and western teritories" (note that "Serbs" are the ONLY ethnic mark in the title and Bosnia is just a teritory) 2. Hercegovina is named after mighty SERBIAN noble Stephen Vukcic Kosaca took the title "Herzog (duke) of St. Sava" (St.Sava,brother of first SERBIAN king Stephen Firstcrowned, was also first SERBIAN archbishop) 3. Bosnia WAS and IS inhabited primarly by SERBS then and now, half of today's "Bosnia" is under 100% SERBIAN rule, the other half is divided between catholics(Croats) and muslims(so called "bosnians" ) 4. Today's so called "Bosnians" are not related with medieval Bosnian heritage in any mean because they are islamised SERBS who served Ottoman occupators,the same islamic occupators who killed last Bosnian king Stephen Tomasevic (who also was last SERBIAN Despot too). 5. To say that medieval Bosnia was not one of serbian states is like saying that medieval Burgundy is not one of medieval french states. Plain and simple! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.69.5.240 (talk) 19:10, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
Tables
I propose unification of all table on this page. It will look better, it will be easier to understand all data, and all other.
| Picture | Name Born - Died |
Reign | Territory | Notes |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Picture of ruler or his territory, if photo is unknown |
Title Name and below years of life 1274 - 1345 |
Years of reign 600 - 626 |
Name of territory | All important notes. |
I will add this table, and replace all other tables. If someone want to add something, you are invited, but i think that this table should be sufficient. --Tadija (talk) 14:59, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
Dubious map
The image File:Serb lands04.png is repeated in this article no less than 9 times. Firstly this excessive use in one article is not necessary and secondly the image itself is questionable per WP:SYNTHESIS. This is not a good way to build wikipedia. Polargeo (talk) 11:19, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
Cleaning of false monarchs
Viseslavic and Crnojevic aren′t Serbian nor Serb, so I removed them. --109.92.7.139 (talk) 12:14, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
- ? sorry? --Tadija 12:30, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
Simply deleting information is not a solution. However, this list is supposed to be a list of monarchs of Serbia, not of monarchs who were of Serbian ethnicity. The list is supposed to be a list of people who ruled Serbia, not:
- a list of Serbian people who ruled a land (for example, the list of French monarchs does not include French people who reigned as monarchs of England, Scotland, Jerusalem, Naples, Sicily, Sweden, Norway, Spain, etc),
- and not a list of people who ruled a Serbian land (for example, the list of British monarchs does not include people who ruled England, Scotland, Wales, Wessex, Mercia, Kent, Essex, etc, nor does the list of French monarchs include rulers of Burgundy, Brittany, Auvergne, etc).
Therefore, I propose creating:
Those articles could easily be made simple and much more understandable than the present article. Of course, this article would link to all those articles where appropriate. Surtsicna (talk) 16:51, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
- Since nobody has opposed this proposal for five days, I will do as I proposed. Surtsicna (talk) 16:16, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry, i didn't saw this. Well that is a bit problematic, as those other lists are not really needed. Rascia is very much Serbian state, and this list is not quite comparable to french or English ones... This is list of the people that ruled as Serbian state (kingdom, principality, whatever) lands. It's separation will not be quite good idea. --Tadija 20:52, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
- Of course Rascia is a Serbian state, just like, for example, the Kingdom of England was a British state. However, Rascia was not equivalent to Serbia. Therefore, the list rulers of Rascia needs its own page. "This list is not quite comparable to french or English ones" - could you please elaborate? Why is it not comparable? Wasn't Serbia divided into several small states during the Middle Age, just like England, France, Spain, Italy, etc? "This is list of the people that ruled as Serbian state (kingdom, principality, whatever) lands." Again, that's not how any other list of rulers works because that's not practical or understandable. You won't see a list of rulers of the Kingdom of Asturias in the List of Spanish monarchs. Besides, I fail to see how some parts of the list are related to Serbia or monarchs at all; what do rulers of Thessaly do in the list and how can members of the House of Sanković and the House of Rastislalić be considered monarchs when they were nothing but feudal lords? "It's separation will not be quite good idea." You haven't quite explained why. Surtsicna (talk) 07:25, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, ok i agree. I will talk to user Ajdebre who was page creator for help in dividing all of this. Can you just wait a bit, then i will inform you for further edits. Thanks for remark. --Tadija 13:59, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
- Thank you for understanding. I can wait, of course, but please don't keep me waiting for five days ;) Surtsicna (talk) 10:22, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
- I talked to him, he will respond us soon! :) --Tadija 15:15, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
- No, that is not how we are going to do. You dismiss historical accuracy, saying Rascia isn't equivalent to Serbia? This is a list of Serbian rulers, that meaning ethnic Serb heads of state, as Rascia was the seat of the Serbian throne, being the Knez of Serbia (Archont/Prince/Great Zupan/King of the Serbs) meant "Ruler of Rascia 'with' Duklja, Travunia" etc. for example Časlav Klonimirović was titled Archont of the Serbs, Knez of Serbia, his seat was in the traditional Rascia and he ruled all Serbian Zupa's=Ruler of Serbia is synonymous with Ruler of Rascia) All Serbian principalities are equivalent to modern Serbia as they were ruled by, most always, members of the same house. For example Hvalimir Petrović is the Zupan of Duklja, he ruled the Zupa which has Zupanates/Zupaniyas which in turn are ruled by other nobility, he is styled the Ruler of Serbs/King of Duklja=Synonymous with Ruler of Serbia. As the other Zupa's are conquered by Bulgars and Byzantines, when he dies he divides his realm between his sons; Petrislav becomes the supreme leader, his two brothers become Zupans (sub-ordinate) of Travunia (became Zupa when Vlastimir gave his son-in-law his birthplace, Trebinje, as wedding present to rule) and Podgoria (now a Zupa, previously region of Duklja). When other principalities (Zupa's) became independent or under foreign rule, the rulers of sovereign Serbian states did not abandon the goal of having their realm as seat of the Serbian Kingdom-unifying the Serbian principalities (becoming the supreme leader of Serbs-Serbia). I will clean up the article of sub-ordinate rulers (No lords, It will only encompass the highest statuses Knez and Grand Zupan (Archont)). It will become more practical and understandable if we give more time on the article, if we go with your idea it will only create more unneeded articles which will confuse, for now we can improve the existing article and we talk more in time. Funny header. Ajdebre (talk · contribs) 19:13
- "You dismiss historical accuracy, saying Rascia isn't equivalent to Serbia?" It obvioulsy isn't, just like England isn't equivalent to the United Kingdom. But this is irrelevant now.
- "This is a list of Serbian rulers, that meaning ethnic Serb heads of state." That is a great problem. This list should not be a list of "ethnic Serb heads of state" for reasons I have given already. The list of French monarchs does not include French people who reigned as monarchs of England, Scotland, Jerusalem, Naples, Sicily, Sweden, Norway, Spain, etc. There are numerous other examples which I can give you but I don't need to. For God's sake, we do not need rulers of Thessaly mentioned in this article!
- "Funny header." Indeed. I expected to find False Dmitry I here :P
- Anyway, I wouldn't oppose trimming the article down to include only the highest rulers (while excluding insignificant lords). Nobody can possibly argue that we need rulers of Nevesinje and Popovo Polje mentioned here! Surtsicna (talk) 12:08, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
maps
That map has nothing to do with DA. Please remove it. Čeha (razgovor) 18:03, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
Categories: