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Requirement for monthly reports
User:Johanneum has objected to wording that discusses the "requirement" to provide a monthly report on preaching activity. This has previously been discussed here. I have reworded it to reinstate the clear "instruction" and "responsibility" to report activity. BlackCab (talk) 04:19, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
- They are specifically instructed to, there are special terms used for members who don't, and if they don't report, they aren't counted as 'publishers' in the worldwide statistics, so it's fair to say it's a requirement.--Jeffro77 (talk) 05:12, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
- The word "must" is a little strong and not entirely accurate. Encouraged? yes. But the fact that some do not do so, is in the article and they are called, "irregular" but are still Witnesses in good standing. Johanneum (talk) 12:31, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
- It is a requirement to submit a report to be counted as a member, however I also think it's sufficient to say they're instructed to submit the reports, so long as there is an indication that terms exist for those who do not submit reports. It would also be appropriate to indicate that only those who report preaching activity are included in official membership statistics.--Jeffro77 (talk) 09:23, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
- Joanneum is either fooling himself or being less than honest. When an organization tells its members ""Jehovah’s organization today instructs us to report our field service activity each month ... At the end of the month, the book study overseer makes sure that all in the group have followed through on their responsibility to report their activity" ... that is a "must". It is a requirement. If a cop pulls you over and instructs you to step out of the car, do you think you have an option? I don't know why he objects to the phraseology. He is part of an organization that tells its members what they must do. Their instruction is to report activity monthly. BlackCab (talk) 10:31, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
- My anecdotal experience is closer to agree with Johanneum than with Blackcab - I know m,any witnesses that are less than regular in their reports with no negative consequences for them in their relation to the congregation. However we need to base this article on sources - what do the reliable sources say about the strictness of the report-requirement?
- I've already added to the article that there are special terms for those who don't, and have not indicated that specific negative action is taken towards members who don't report. However, it may be worth mentioning that reporting is required for inclusion in official statistics and that those who don't report for extended periods receive 'shepherding calls'.--Jeffro77 (talk) 07:54, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
- My anecdotal experience is closer to agree with Johanneum than with Blackcab - I know m,any witnesses that are less than regular in their reports with no negative consequences for them in their relation to the congregation. However we need to base this article on sources - what do the reliable sources say about the strictness of the report-requirement?
- Joanneum is either fooling himself or being less than honest. When an organization tells its members ""Jehovah’s organization today instructs us to report our field service activity each month ... At the end of the month, the book study overseer makes sure that all in the group have followed through on their responsibility to report their activity" ... that is a "must". It is a requirement. If a cop pulls you over and instructs you to step out of the car, do you think you have an option? I don't know why he objects to the phraseology. He is part of an organization that tells its members what they must do. Their instruction is to report activity monthly. BlackCab (talk) 10:31, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
- It is a requirement to submit a report to be counted as a member, however I also think it's sufficient to say they're instructed to submit the reports, so long as there is an indication that terms exist for those who do not submit reports. It would also be appropriate to indicate that only those who report preaching activity are included in official membership statistics.--Jeffro77 (talk) 09:23, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
- The word "must" is a little strong and not entirely accurate. Encouraged? yes. But the fact that some do not do so, is in the article and they are called, "irregular" but are still Witnesses in good standing. Johanneum (talk) 12:31, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
Currently, the article says this:
.
| “ | Witnesses are instructed to devote as much time as possible to preaching activities and are also required to provide a monthly report on their 'witnessing' activity. Baptized members who fail to submit a report every month are referred to as 'irregular'; those who do not submit a report for six consecutive months are referred to as 'inactive'. | ” |
I suggest something more like this:
| “ | Witnesses are instructed to devote as much time as possible to preaching activities. |
” |
The whole "required" notion, imho, is best left to the final sentence, which clarifies the level of expectation for preaching work. ...comments? ~BFizz 03:59, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
- For the sake of accuracy it should be noted that Witnesses are under instructions to report their witnessing activity. Your wording states that they do report, but not that they are told to report. The statement that those who fail to turn in their reports are given a name, in this case "irregular" (in line with the general JW policy of categorising everybody, either "active", "worldly", "interested", "opposed", "apostate", "murmurer", "disassociated" etc etc) doesn't make that clear. The requirement to report their witnessing activity is a distinctive feature of the religion. Many religions promote the idea of "witnessing" or "sharing the gospel"; I know of no other that instructs members to hand in a monthly slip of paper detailing the hours spent in that work. The figures are kept on file permanently and are often checked by elders and discussed with individuals later if elders note a decline in their enthusiasm. In short, I support the current wording. BlackCab (talk) 05:43, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
- I hesitate to embrace the wording with "required" because it is unclear what the consequences are for failing to meet this "requirement". Obviously, Witnesses are still considered part of the religion if they don't report every month, though they are given a different label. What, then, is the requirement for? For example, I am "required" to plug in my computer, but only in order to use a functioning computer. If I don't need to use my computer, the requirement no longer applies to me. What is the "in order to" of the "requirement" to report witnessing time every month? ...comments? ~BFizz 01:38, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
- Jeffro mentioned that they are not counted as "publishers' if they do not meet this requirement. Is there a way to make this transparent to the reader? Is there a source for it? ...comments? ~BFizz 01:40, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
- Informally, the requirement to provide a monthly report is to remain "in good standing", but I doubt there'll be anything written about that. Still, maybe there is -- I'll have a look in their books. Male Witnesses are offered the carrot of "privileges of service" if they get enough hours -- roles such as "ministerial servant" or "elder" -- and must provide proof of acceptable witnessing activity even to hold microphones in the meetings, operate the sound system, adjust the microphones on stage, handle the books, magazines and finances and act as attendant. The pressure to conform is so strong that the mere "instruction" to hand in reports is enough to gain the required result. Refusal would be a sign of rebelliousness; a general failure would be a sign of uninterest and would probably result in a visit from the elders to ask them what's going on. Those who failed to report might well receive a phone call or face-to-face request from an elder asking what their numbers are so they can file the report for them. That happened to me several times. When I failed to report my witnessing activity on my honeymoon (I was engaged in a different type of activity as I recall) the congregation secretary simply made up some numbers and submitted them in my name. Towards the end of my time in the org, I generally made up figures as well, as I'm sure many Witnesses do to stay under the radar. Quite how your question can be answered using a published source may be a little tricky, but as I say, I'll check it out. BlackCab (talk) 05:58, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
- I've already indicated some of the sourced repercussions of not submitting reports, specifically, the labels 'irregular' and 'inactive'. I'm not sure about a specific unambiguous reference that concisely says only those who report are counted, though the yearly 'Worldwide Reports' show totals for 'Peak Publishers' (as the identifying term for 'members'), and other articles indicate that the worldwide reports are compiled from the reports submitted by members. (BlackCab's personal experiences constitute original research.)--Jeffro77 (talk) 08:17, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
- I have read through an Our Kingdom Ministry article (December 2002) on filing reports and I don't see that there is a direct answer of the type Fizz is seeking other than what the article already includes. The OKM article says that "conscientiously reporting your activity shows respect for Jehovah’s arrangement" and that it "contributes to a report that accurately reflects what was accomplished in the field". The article says that "field service reports help the elders identify those with potential to expand their ministry as well as those who may need assistance" (confirming my point above about attracting the attention of elders). The Organized to Do Jehovah's Will book (2005, page 88) impresses upon Witnesses the need to "cultivate the right attitude toward reporting our field ministry", but there is nothing that mentions any adverse consequences for those who fail. The May 1984 OKM says that "Each month the congregation secretary should provide each book study conductor with a list of those in his group who have not reported field service activity. Study conductors will do their part by giving particular attention to the spiritual needs of these, offering personally to assist them in the ministry or arranging for someone else to do so. And, of course, the service overseer, working through the study conductors, will take the lead in helping to reduce irregularity in the congregation." Yes, it's a requirement. But the nearest any WT source comes to identifying direct consequences is, as noted, Witnesses will be counseled by elders and defined as either "irregular" or "inactive". BlackCab (talk) 11:35, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
- The trouble with religious 'requirements' is that a religion's doctrine on a 'requirement' is often ambiguous, yet alludes to the idea that "you should do this if you want to be saved." And yet there are exceptions, there is forgiveness, and, well, it's a little more fuzzy than plain black-and-white 100% fulfillment or not 100% fulfillment. Since no Watchtower publications seem to use the word "requirement" in reference to monthly reporting, I don't think we should either, which is why I made an alternate proposition. ...comments? ~BFizz 22:21, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
- I don't see the problem, but the word "required" can be replaced with "instructed" without losing the sense of the organizational command. BlackCab (talk) 23:53, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
- The trouble with religious 'requirements' is that a religion's doctrine on a 'requirement' is often ambiguous, yet alludes to the idea that "you should do this if you want to be saved." And yet there are exceptions, there is forgiveness, and, well, it's a little more fuzzy than plain black-and-white 100% fulfillment or not 100% fulfillment. Since no Watchtower publications seem to use the word "requirement" in reference to monthly reporting, I don't think we should either, which is why I made an alternate proposition. ...comments? ~BFizz 22:21, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
- I have read through an Our Kingdom Ministry article (December 2002) on filing reports and I don't see that there is a direct answer of the type Fizz is seeking other than what the article already includes. The OKM article says that "conscientiously reporting your activity shows respect for Jehovah’s arrangement" and that it "contributes to a report that accurately reflects what was accomplished in the field". The article says that "field service reports help the elders identify those with potential to expand their ministry as well as those who may need assistance" (confirming my point above about attracting the attention of elders). The Organized to Do Jehovah's Will book (2005, page 88) impresses upon Witnesses the need to "cultivate the right attitude toward reporting our field ministry", but there is nothing that mentions any adverse consequences for those who fail. The May 1984 OKM says that "Each month the congregation secretary should provide each book study conductor with a list of those in his group who have not reported field service activity. Study conductors will do their part by giving particular attention to the spiritual needs of these, offering personally to assist them in the ministry or arranging for someone else to do so. And, of course, the service overseer, working through the study conductors, will take the lead in helping to reduce irregularity in the congregation." Yes, it's a requirement. But the nearest any WT source comes to identifying direct consequences is, as noted, Witnesses will be counseled by elders and defined as either "irregular" or "inactive". BlackCab (talk) 11:35, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
- I've already indicated some of the sourced repercussions of not submitting reports, specifically, the labels 'irregular' and 'inactive'. I'm not sure about a specific unambiguous reference that concisely says only those who report are counted, though the yearly 'Worldwide Reports' show totals for 'Peak Publishers' (as the identifying term for 'members'), and other articles indicate that the worldwide reports are compiled from the reports submitted by members. (BlackCab's personal experiences constitute original research.)--Jeffro77 (talk) 08:17, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
- Informally, the requirement to provide a monthly report is to remain "in good standing", but I doubt there'll be anything written about that. Still, maybe there is -- I'll have a look in their books. Male Witnesses are offered the carrot of "privileges of service" if they get enough hours -- roles such as "ministerial servant" or "elder" -- and must provide proof of acceptable witnessing activity even to hold microphones in the meetings, operate the sound system, adjust the microphones on stage, handle the books, magazines and finances and act as attendant. The pressure to conform is so strong that the mere "instruction" to hand in reports is enough to gain the required result. Refusal would be a sign of rebelliousness; a general failure would be a sign of uninterest and would probably result in a visit from the elders to ask them what's going on. Those who failed to report might well receive a phone call or face-to-face request from an elder asking what their numbers are so they can file the report for them. That happened to me several times. When I failed to report my witnessing activity on my honeymoon (I was engaged in a different type of activity as I recall) the congregation secretary simply made up some numbers and submitted them in my name. Towards the end of my time in the org, I generally made up figures as well, as I'm sure many Witnesses do to stay under the radar. Quite how your question can be answered using a published source may be a little tricky, but as I say, I'll check it out. BlackCab (talk) 05:58, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
Blood transfusion fractions
In the paragraph on blood transfusion, it says that Witnesses may not accept red blood cells, white blood cells, platelets, etc. Yet it goes on to say that fractions created from these components may be accepted at the discretion of the individual. I think the text is mistaken. Red blood cells, white blood cells, platelets, and so on are all fractions of blood. I'm not sure how one is supposed to fractionate any of them, since they are themselves homogeneous fractions. I'm not a Witness myself so I can't vouch for what their doctrine is, but this needs clarification. It's really important for doctors and Witnesses to know exactly what they believe in. - Richard Cavell (talk) 09:03, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
- Despite the apparent dichotomy, it is indeed the case that although Witnesses may not accept any of the major 4 components of whole blood, substances that are further fractionated from those components are considered to be a "conscience matter", which individual Witnesses are allowed to accept if they so choose.
- For brevity, a chart in The Watchtower (15 June 2004, page 22) presents their "stand" as:
Basic stand on blood Whole blood Unacceptable Red cells White cells Platelets Plasma Christian
to decideFractions
from
red cellsFractions
from
white cellsFractions
from
plateletsFractions
from
plasma
- I hope that clarifies for you. However, there are many other similar statements in JW literature, including in the article that accompanies the table above.--Jeffro77 (talk) 10:25, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
Use of Neutral sources
The following source, rather than being neutral, being the first on this list, isn't neutral, but rather from a pretty dogged opposer of Jehovah's Witnesses.
I would suggest that a more neutral source be used in it's place.
Apocalypse Delayed: The Story of Jehovah's Witnesses by M. James Penton. Penton, professor emeritus of history at University of Lethbridge and a former member of the religion, examines the history of Jehovah's Witnesses, and their doctrines. Read selections from: Apocalypse Delayed: the Story of Jehovah's Witnesses University of Toronto Press. ISBN 0-8020-7973-3 (Canada, 1998) (Google book search) Natural (talk) 21:28, 2 July 2010 (UTC)Natural
- We have gone over this point innumerable times, Scott. Penton obviously expresses viewpoints in his book, as does any author of any book. That does not exclude its use as a source. The key here is that the information is used in an editorially neutral manner and that any claims he makes that are plainly colored by his personal experiences be noted as such. The Watch Tower Society is not a neutral source either, but its material is used here with the same caution. BlackCab (talk) 22:00, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
JW encouraged to have a balanced view to the world
JW are encouraged to be balanced as to separateness from the world.
On the one hand, separateness is encouraged from the attitudes such as love of money, desire for personal prominence, incessant pursuit of pleasures, rebellion against authority, etc. in addition to politics and false religion. June 1 1994, p. 16,17.
On the other hand, the 11/1/1997 Watchtower article encourages balance in the entire article "Jehovah’s balanced attitude toward the world should guide his worshipers."
with quotes such as these:
"Shortly before his death, Jesus told Pontius Pilate: “My kingdom is no part of this world.” (John 18:36) In harmony with these words, Jesus had earlier rejected Satan’s offer to give him authority over the kingdoms of the world, and he had refused to allow the Jews to make him a king. (Luke 4:5-8; John 6:14, 15) Yet, Jesus showed great love for the world of mankind. An example of this was reported by the apostle Matthew: “On seeing the crowds he felt pity for them, because they were skinned and thrown about like sheep without a shepherd.” Out of love, he preached to the people in their towns and villages. He taught them and healed their infirmities. (Matthew 9:36) He was also sensitive to the physical needs of those who came to learn from him. We read: “Jesus called his disciples to him and said: ‘I feel pity for the crowd...."
With that in mind, in the opening statements, the term "secular society" being morally corrupt is a very broad term. The Misplaced Pages page is referenced society which again, is extremely broad.
JW do not believe that all of secular society is corrupt. But, they do remain separate from much of the world. Therefore, the clarifying adj. "much" would better help to qualify the broad statement regarding society made in the opening comments in the Misplaced Pages article. Natural (talk) 21:58, 2 July 2010 (UTC)Natural
- The 1997 Watchtower that you quote also states that "This “world” is the mass of humanity that is alienated from God. True Christians are no part of this world, and it hates them." By "humanity that is alienated from God" the article means 'people who aren't JWs', not 'some ambiguous portion of society in general'. It also states that "In the Bible the word “world” (Greek, ko′smos) often designates unrighteous human society, which “is lying in the power of the wicked one.”" The only distinction that JW doctrine makes is that JWs are separate from 'the world', not that they are separate from only 'particularly bad parts of the world'. Whilst most of them maintain secular jobs, and many maintain friendships with 'worldly people' that would not be endorsed by the leadership, the official position is that 'the world' is all of human society except JWs, and JWs are not supposed to form close friendships with any worldly people who don't show an interest in their beliefs.--Jeffro77 (talk) 01:27, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
- The point of the two articles in the 11/1/1997 was basically the opposite of that idea. It's trying to help JW to be balanced with regards to separateness to the world. This is the idea given in the article, and the idea behind the view of JW toward's people who do not share their form of religion,
- You are taking the article out of context. The article certainly does make a comparison between different applications of Greek kosmos to mean either 'the (entire) corrupt world' and 'the world of mankind JWs should preach to', but it does not make the distinction you are implying, that only part of the 'world' is corrupt. The point is that JWs (believe they) should show love for the people in the 'morally corrupt world' by preaching to them, but also that they should, for any purpose other than potential conversion, avoid close association with all in that morally corrupt world.--Jeffro77 (talk) 03:10, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
- Title of article: Christians and the World of Mankind
- 13 While preaching, many of us meet individuals who are disillusioned with organized religion. They may, however, still be God-fearers, believing in God to some extent and trying to live good lives. In this twisted and increasingly godless generation, should we not rejoice to meet people who have some belief in God? p. 12 par. 13 Natural (talk) 13:21, 3 July 2010 (UTC)Natural
- The point of the two articles in the 11/1/1997 was basically the opposite of that idea. It's trying to help JW to be balanced with regards to separateness to the world. This is the idea given in the article, and the idea behind the view of JW toward's people who do not share their form of religion,
- And what of those many millions who have totally turned their backs on religion, becoming atheistic or agnostic? Moreover, what of those who heed with almost religious fervor modern philosophy or the pop psychology that is published in the numerous self-help books found in bookstores? Should any of such people be shunned, considered beyond redemption? Not if we imitate the apostle Paul.p16
- I feel, that to a certain extent, the Misplaced Pages article is trying to make JW look unbalanced, when the literature from JW themselves is trying to help JW to be balanced. Natural (talk) 13:23, 3 July 2010 (UTC)Natural
- The sentence you wish to change is a summary of the section further down on separateness. The article is not trying to make JWs look like anything. It simply makes statements that reflect the views of reliable sources. You seem to be arguing that, contrary to what WTS publications say, only parts of the world lie in the power of the wicked one. If Witnesses do not believe secular society is corrupt, why do they believe God will destroy it anyway? BlackCab (talk) 13:40, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
JW preaching work statement
With regards to this statement on "coercive pressure" by Raymond Franz, "Raymond Franz and others describe the Watch Tower Society's continual admonitions to preach door-to-door as coercive pressure." The others here, James Penton is quoted. Might one please provide the exact statements (in context) please, where Penton makes that claim. Thanks. Natural (talk) 22:29, 2 July 2010 (UTC)Natural
- The page references are cited in the footnotes. BlackCab (talk) 22:41, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, I do realize that. My question is posted here, because those specific pages don't seem to be available on the Internet. They are blanked out on googlebooks. In some other references on the Misplaced Pages page, the references didn't support the statements being made. I wanted to see the actually reference that is made by Penton, the statements about coercive pressure. Is he quoting Ray Franz, saying that Franz says this or that? Or is he offer his own opinion on it, or giving some evidence for that with his own writing? So, did you have the book? or does someone have the exact quote from Penton? Natural (talk) 13:12, 3 July 2010 (UTC)Natural
- Perhaps you should buy the book. You might learn something about your own religion your leaders haven't told you. BlackCab (talk) 13:41, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, I do realize that. My question is posted here, because those specific pages don't seem to be available on the Internet. They are blanked out on googlebooks. In some other references on the Misplaced Pages page, the references didn't support the statements being made. I wanted to see the actually reference that is made by Penton, the statements about coercive pressure. Is he quoting Ray Franz, saying that Franz says this or that? Or is he offer his own opinion on it, or giving some evidence for that with his own writing? So, did you have the book? or does someone have the exact quote from Penton? Natural (talk) 13:12, 3 July 2010 (UTC)Natural
- To be quite honest, I've seen and heard much apostate reasoning and don't agree with Ray Franz's opinions, or James Penton's. I'm not really interested in what my "leaders" tell me, because I think for myself and make my own religious decisions, I don't need any leader to tell me what to believe or think. I'm not really interested in buying Penton's book. I am already throughly familiar with the positive aspects of the Jehovah's Witnesses, as well as the imperfections and shortcomings. What I'm asking is the pages that are used for Penton's statements, do they actually support the claim made on Misplaced Pages or not? Otherwise, it would be necessary to remove the word "others" from that sentence, if Penton is not making that statement, or if he is just saying that this is what Ray Franz states. 69.115.172.182 (talk) 13:47, 3 July 2010 (UTC)Natural
Natural (talk) 11:05, 5 July 2010 (UTC)Natural
Criticisms: Autocratic
The article states that critics have described the religion's leadership as autocratic. User:Naturalpsychology has added, as a rebuttal, the statement that 'Watchtower literature, though, emphasizes that elders should be "yielding," "reasonable," and "balanced," to treat the flock with "love," and to be "compassionate," displaying a "sincere interest" in the flock, rather than being "autocratic"'. (my emphasis) If critics claim an organization is autocratic (a statement based on observation of behavior), is it a rebuttal that the organization publicly declares its members shouldn't be autocratic? BlackCab (talk) 23:23, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
- There are two lines of rebuttal on the accusation that JW are "autocratic. 1. The statements by JW literature, which gives ample evidence that they are not autocratic, but teach quite the opposite. 2. Statements such as this by sociologist Stark,
- "Jehovah's Witnesses are expected to conform to rather strict standards, enforcement tends to be very informal, sustained by the close bonds of friendship within the group. That is, while Witness elders can impose rather severe sanctions (such as expulsion and shunning) on deviant members, they seldom need to do so -- and when they do, the reasons for their actions will be widely-known and understood within the group. Moreover, even if leaders are not always very democratic, the path to leadership is. As a result, Witnesses tend to see themselves as part of the power structure, rather than subjected to it. It is this, not 'blind fanaticism' (as is so often claimed by outsiders and defectors), that is the real basis of authority among Witnesses." (Journal of Contemporary Religion)
- You might personally disagree with this, but a recognized authority gives his summation based on observation of how Jehovah's Witnesses operate and how JW in general view it. So, this also would be an appropriate rebuttal to the "autocratic" accusation. Natural (talk) 13:51, 3 July 2010 (UTC)Natural
- Point 1: The statements of JW literature do not rebut the observation by many writers that the WTS is autocratic. Sports commentators may note that a football team is sloppy, unfit and always loses matches because of that. It is no rebuttal that the sports club issues a press release saying that players should be fit, focused and well trained. Yet the comments you inserted "elders should do this, elders should not do that, are exactly the same.
- Point 2: Stark does not reject the claim they are autocratic. He states that they are not democratic and also notes that Witnesses perceive that they do not see themselves as powerless pawns. The people of North Korea may very well see themselves in much the same way because of much the same indoctrination process. The Chinese during the rule of Chairman Mao enthusiastically joined in crushing dissidence when they detected it in their neighbours and workmates because they were carried along on the wave. That didn't alter the fact that his rulership was autocratic. BlackCab (talk) 23:51, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
On accusation that JW preaching work is coercive
These two quotes were used in rebuttal to R. Franz's accusations. The point being that Jehovah's Witnesses are admonished to do whatever they reasonably can, but are not coerced to preach. Comments? There would need to be some rebuttal to Franz's accusation.
cite article | Take Refuge in Jehovah | date = January 1, 1994 | publication = The Watchtower | quote = "Thus, whatever time we spend in service each month, especially if that time represents the best that we can do, is good, not shameful. Was not the widow’s mite fully appreciated by Jesus and his Father?—Luke 21:1-4."
cite article | Keep the Right View of Kingdom Preaching | date = March 15, 1970 | publication = The Watchtower | page = 176 | quote ="However, this is not the case. Jehovah God does not require more from his servants than they are able to give. He is greatly pleased even with the ‘widow’s mite’ when this is all one is able to offer. (Luke 21:1-4; Matt. 11:28, 29) So the right view is that a Christian should do what he can in the preaching work. This is all that God requires." Natural (talk) 20:19, 3 July 2010 (UTC)Natural
- w08 1/15 p. 4 par. 1 “Keep Watching the Ministry Which You Accepted in the Lord”: "Failure to assume the responsibility of warning people of the choice that lies before them could result in our incurring bloodguilt."
- w00 7/1 p. 11 par. 13 Eagerly Declare the Good News: "We also preach out of love for people and in order to avoid bloodguilt."
- w06 7/1 p. 30 par. 17 Youths, Make It Your Choice to Serve Jehovah: "Fulfilling our dedication involves ‘buying out time.’ How do we do that? By taking time that we would otherwise spend in futile pursuits and devoting it to serious Bible study, regular meeting attendance, and the fullest possible share in preaching the “good news of the kingdom.”"
- --Jeffro77 (talk) 03:00, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
- I am going to take time to respond to these, but don't have time now. I disagree with your personal interpretation. Jesus Christ commanded his followers to preach. Matthew 28:19,20, "Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, teaching them all the things I have commanded you, and look I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things." 1 Tim 4:16, "Preach the word, be at it urgently, in favorable season and troublesome season." Acts 20:20, "And every day in the temple and from house to house," they preached. The issue, then is against Christianity, rather than against JW. Jesus Christ, the Apostle Paul were also coercive. Your stand is against the Christian ministry that has been going on for 20 centuries, not against Jehovah's Witnesses. The stand of R. Franz and that Misplaced Pages editors here take is the stand of the lazy Christian. The Christian that doesn't want to do the work Jesus did. We, as JW preach, because of Jesus command, not any command from the org. of JW. The bible itself gives the command to preach. As Jesus said, "You are very much mistaken." You can take some isolated quotes from the Watchtower to try to twist them to your own point of view, but that is all it is, a point of view. That is your point of view. Our point of view is different. Misplaced Pages isn't skewed to your pesronal point of view, but is supposed to show all points of view. You opt for the lazy Christian approach, that's fine, that's R. Franz's thinking, we think the way Jesus said, that is a different point of view. Natural (talk) 19:55, 4 July 2010 (UTC)Natural
- This isn't an argument over an editor's "personal interpretation" on whether Christians should preach. Reliable sources have accused the JW leadership of coercing members to keep on knocking on doors month in, month out for the rest of their life. The article has included that criticism. Your personal disagreement with that criticism is irrelevant. Perhaps to appease you we could add in the "Beliefs/Evangelism" section of the article that Witnesses are "commanded" to give up their free time to knock on doors to distribute WTS material. BlackCab (talk) 22:39, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
- Whether Jesus ever actually said many of the things attributed to him is highly debatable, let alone how they should be inferred if he did say them. But aside from that, even if Christians are 'meant' to preach, it doesn't change the fact that JW literature tells JWs that they must spend as much time as they can doing so, lest they be 'bloodguilty', and that such a threat looming over them can quite reasonably be considered coercive. More importantly, the point being contended is stated in cited sources and is not merely the opinion of Misplaced Pages editors.
- Additionally, Acts 20:20 does not support 'house-to-house' preaching in the manner you imply; the literal translation of what is rendered in the NWT as "house to house" is actually "according to the houses" and referred to meetings of Christians in the homes of people who were already Christians.--Jeffro77 (talk) 08:41, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
- What needs to be realized is that the Bible itself is what talks about being bloodguilt for not giving a warning. It is not something JW made up.
- 7 “Now as regards you, O son of man, a watchman is what I have made you to the house of Israel, and at my mouth you must hear word and give them warning from me. 8 When I say to someone wicked, ‘O wicked one, you will positively die!’ but you actually do not speak out to warn the wicked one from his way, he himself as a wicked one will die in his own error, but his blood I shall ask back at your own hand." Natural (talk) 10:56, 5 July 2010 (UTC)Natural
- That's a scripture from Ezekiel, which was written about 600 years before Christ. I don't see a direct connection between that book, dealing with the destruction of Judea, and the Watch Tower Society commanding members of a 21st century religion to fulfil a certain number of hours per month knocking on doors to remain "in good standing". BlackCab (talk) 11:16, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
Context needs to be considered in the way quotes are being used in this article to prove points
A person can take three quotes from Ronald Reagen to prove that he was a Communitist, You can take three quotes from the Bible to prove that early Christians and Jesus himself, recommended cannabilism. The quotes used to prove points, need to be taken into the entire context of what is being said, as well as the the context with which the entire thought is being transmitted by JW. Often times this isolated quotes, are not giving the full picture in either the article, or the entire body of writings of Jehovah's Witnesses. We need to quote with intellectual integrity, to give an accurate generalization. Natural (talk) 11:03, 5 July 2010 (UTC)Natural
- I have no idea what you're talking about. Is this a general rant about society or are you addressing something in the article? BlackCab (talk) 11:07, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
- I'd like to encourage you to be polite in editing on Misplaced Pages.
- To explain this point to you, please, two editors on the Misplaced Pages Jehovah's Witness team, are using quotes out of the general context of the complete body of Jehovah's Witnesses literature, in an effort to do what Russia has attempted to do, but that the European Court condemned, that is, to make Jehovah's Witnesses look extreme. One can pull quotes out of Jehovah's Witness literature, to prove pretty much whatever point one is trying to prove against Jehovah's Witness, but the entire context of both the article, and clarifying information, as well as the context of the entire body of current Jehovah's Witness literature needs to be taken into context. This is intellectual integrity. It is necessary in an encyclopedia. 69.115.172.182 (talk) 11:53, 5 July 2010 (UTC)Natural
- I assume you also take issue with the selective pro-JW quoting by User:Naturalpsychology. The comparison of Misplaced Pages editors with a Russian court case is amusing, but irrelevant.--Jeffro77 (talk) 12:16, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
- To explain this point to you, please, two editors on the Misplaced Pages Jehovah's Witness team, are using quotes out of the general context of the complete body of Jehovah's Witnesses literature, in an effort to do what Russia has attempted to do, but that the European Court condemned, that is, to make Jehovah's Witnesses look extreme. One can pull quotes out of Jehovah's Witness literature, to prove pretty much whatever point one is trying to prove against Jehovah's Witness, but the entire context of both the article, and clarifying information, as well as the context of the entire body of current Jehovah's Witness literature needs to be taken into context. This is intellectual integrity. It is necessary in an encyclopedia. 69.115.172.182 (talk) 11:53, 5 July 2010 (UTC)Natural
Bible's view of preaching and Jesus words
Also, Jesus said this to his disciples with whom he entrusted his "belongings,"
24 “Finally the one that had received the one talent came forward and said, ‘Master, I knew you to be an exacting man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you did not winnow. 25 So I grew afraid and went off and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ 26 In reply his master said to him, ‘Wicked and sluggish slave, you knew, did you, that I reaped where I did not sow and gathered where I did not winnow? 27 Well, then, you ought to have deposited my silver monies with the bankers, and on my arrival I would be receiving what is mine with interest. 28 “‘Therefore TAKE away the talent from him and give it to him that has the ten talents. 29 For to everyone that has, more will be given and he will have abundance; but as for him that does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 30 And throw the good-for-nothing slave out into the darkness outside. There is where weeping and the gnashing of teeth will be.’
It would seem, then, that the issue isn't so much with Jehovah's Witnesses per se, as it is with the entire Bible and Christianity.
Your eyeglasses only let in negative light. You need to get glasses that let in positive light also!
To the apostate, the preaching work is a chore and duty, and burdensome, for us as Christians it is a joy and delight!
Also, the Apostle Paul said these two things, "Really, woe is me if I did not declare the good news." 1 Cor 9:15 and to Timothy, and to all Christians he said, "I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus, who is destined to judge the living and the dead, and by his manifestation and his kingdom, 2 preach the word, be at it urgently in favorable season, in troublesome season, reprove, reprimand, exhort, with all long-suffering and teaching. 3 For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the healthful teaching, but, in accord with their own desires, they will accumulate teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, whereas they will be turned aside to false stories. 5 You, though, keep your senses in all things, suffer evil, do work of an evangelizer, fully accomplish your ministry."
Paul, commanded, encouraged, exhorted Christians to preach. This is coercion? No, it is the work of Christians.
"And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come." Matt 24:14. These words of Jesus have influenced Christians for 2,000 years, including true Christians today. As the Apostle Paul said, "How will they preach unless they have been sent forth?" Rom 10:14.
Are Jehovah's Witnesses to be singled out for criticism by opposers because they repeat the words of Jesus and the Apostle Paul? No, they are to be commended for taking up this assignment. Natural (talk) 10:56, 5 July 2010 (UTC)Natural
- Some non-JW have written about the preaching of Jehovah's Witnesses positively as, "a remarkably comprehensive missionary effort". F. Mead. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Naturalpsychology (talk • contribs) 10:59, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
- Whatever, Scott. I'm happy that you find it a joy to give up your weekends to sell Watch Tower literature. But right now we're discussing the content of an encyclopedia entry that is simply noting that some commentators have criticised the WTS leadership for coercing JWs to spend a certain number of hours every month publicly preaching. You seem to want to use this page to convince us that your religion has a biblical basis for placing that pressure on its members, but it's all beside the point. The wording is accurate. BlackCab (talk) 11:05, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
- Just to make a small correction. Watch Tower literature isn't sold. I haven't received any type of contribution for "Watchtower literature," in I don't know how long. Also, most of my time involves conducting Bible studies with people, and often times, helping them with their problems. Natural (talk) 11:25, 5 July 2010 (UTC)Natural
- It is technically true that JW literature hasn't been sold since Jimmy Swaggart lost the case about tax on the sale of religious literature, however, the literature is still payed for by means of donations; indeed often it is paid for twice, by the JWs when they collect their literature, and then when in-kind donations are given at the doors (unless the JWs pocket those donations for themselves, which they're told not to do).
- Just to make a small correction. Watch Tower literature isn't sold. I haven't received any type of contribution for "Watchtower literature," in I don't know how long. Also, most of my time involves conducting Bible studies with people, and often times, helping them with their problems. Natural (talk) 11:25, 5 July 2010 (UTC)Natural
- Why are you worried about it? Natural (talk) 14:04, 5 July 2010 (UTC)Natural
- I didn't say it worried me. You said the literature isn't sold, so I indicated that money is still accepted (and is occasionally solicited) on a donation basis when literature is distributed.--Jeffro77 (talk) 14:45, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
- Why are you worried about it? Natural (talk) 14:04, 5 July 2010 (UTC)Natural
- What does your 'conducting Bible studies' have to do with this discussion?
- Do you count time spent 'helping people with their problems'?--Jeffro77
(talk) 11:46, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
- BlackCab is making personal statements towards me on this page which are better put on my personal page, or not at all. I was replying to his derogatory comments towards me, disparaging my ministry.Natural (talk) 13:59, 5 July 2010 (UTC)Natural
- Also, your comment about "counting time helping people with their problems" reflects a negative bias to Jehovah's Witnesses organizational arrangements, and a disparaging attitude toward our Christian work. Jehovah's Witnesses do many works besides preaching house to house, and individually that might not be considered part of the preaching work. A person working at Bethel might spend 40-50 hours a week at his assignment, and only "count" 10 hours in a month in public preaching. For your editing to be effective, one should try to keep one's personal disdain out of the picture. Try to be positive, stick to the facts. When I go to work, as I'm sure you do, I have to punch into a time clock. I don't particularly like it, but it is good in that you are guaranteed your pay. There are certain structures which are used in society for one reason or another, which have a good purpose, but might slightly limit one's personal freedom. The same is true in the Christian organization of Jehovah's Witnesses. This is in response to the disparaging remarks about "counting time" That's the second time you've brought that up, so it must irk you, that particular aspect of the ministry of JW. Don't let it bother you, it's no big deal.Natural (talk) 14:03, 5 July 2010 (UTC)Natural
- It doesn't really worry me, but I seem to have hit a nerve. You didn't answer the question though.--Jeffro77 (talk) 14:45, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
- And you indicate your bias against other Christian religions. So what? We both agree that other Christian religions are full of unnecessary rituals and incorrect beliefs. I just believe that yours does too. But it doesn't stop me from being able to be objective when editing articles, and I edit articles about it because I happen to know a fair bit about it and will defend the articles against both positive and negative bias.--Jeffro77 (talk) 22:15, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
- Also, your comment about "counting time helping people with their problems" reflects a negative bias to Jehovah's Witnesses organizational arrangements, and a disparaging attitude toward our Christian work. Jehovah's Witnesses do many works besides preaching house to house, and individually that might not be considered part of the preaching work. A person working at Bethel might spend 40-50 hours a week at his assignment, and only "count" 10 hours in a month in public preaching. For your editing to be effective, one should try to keep one's personal disdain out of the picture. Try to be positive, stick to the facts. When I go to work, as I'm sure you do, I have to punch into a time clock. I don't particularly like it, but it is good in that you are guaranteed your pay. There are certain structures which are used in society for one reason or another, which have a good purpose, but might slightly limit one's personal freedom. The same is true in the Christian organization of Jehovah's Witnesses. This is in response to the disparaging remarks about "counting time" That's the second time you've brought that up, so it must irk you, that particular aspect of the ministry of JW. Don't let it bother you, it's no big deal.Natural (talk) 14:03, 5 July 2010 (UTC)Natural
Rebuttal to the accusation of apostate Ray Franz on preaching work being coercive
The admonitions to preach that are used to support this criticism, from Watchtower literature, in giving this viewpoint, as expressed by Misplaced Pages in this article, need to be balanced with the continued comments in the Watchtower, such as these points, to get a complete view of the issue, in addition to the support that Jehovah's Witnesses draw from in the Bible itself.
- "Whatever time we spend in service each month, especially if that time represents the best that we can do, is good, not shameful. Was not the widow’s mite fully appreciated by Jesus and his Father?—Luke 21:1-4." January 1, 1994
- "However, this is not the case. Jehovah God does not require more from his servants than they are able to give. He is greatly pleased even with the ‘widow’s mite’ when this is all one is able to offer. (Luke 21:1-4; Matt. 11:28, 29) So the right view is that a Christian should do what he can in the preaching work. This is all that God requires." March 15, 1970 p. 176
- "Showing balance, not driving youngsters beyond their limitations, parents can help them to find joy in the ministry.—Genesis 33:13, 14. June 1, 2004. p.17 par. 12
- "Engaging in the field ministry as a family will draw you closer, yet the unique needs of children require a commitment of your private time and emotional energy. Therefore, balance is needed to determine how much time you can use for the preaching work or congregation duties while you also care spiritually, emotionally, and materially for ‘those who are your own.’ You must “learn first to practice godly devotion in own household.” (1 Timothy 5:4, 8) To help fathers, especially, to get the balance needed between family obligations and ministerial duties, the September 15, 1959, issue of The Watchtower urged: “Let proper weight be given to the interests of your own family. Certainly Jehovah God would not expect a man to use all his time in congregational activity, in helping his brothers and neighbors gain salvation, and yet not look after the salvation of his own household. A man’s wife and children are a primary responsibility.” November 1, 1986 p. 22
- We can be sure that Jehovah knows our circumstances and abilities. He fully realizes what it is possible for us to do, and he would never require us to do more than we can accomplish. Whether we can do a great deal or very little, Jehovah will make up for any lack. September 8, 1995 p. 21
- Reasonable Expectations Bring Blessings
Cultivating a reasonable view of what we can do will spare us many frustrations. By setting balanced goals, we have a sense of achievement despite our limitations. We thus rejoice over what we can accomplish, even if it is relatively modest.—Gal. 6:4. July 15, 2008. p. 32
- The conclusion being, yes Christians are commanded to preach. No it is not coercive, rather, reasonableness is emphasized. R. Franz accuses JW of constantly trying to coerce JW to "do more, do more". This is not the case. Jesus and the Bible give the command to preach. The literature and tone of Jehovah's Witnesses is that balanced is needed in caring for all of our obligations, and not to do more than what we reasonably can.
- There are two sides to the issue presented here, that need to be mentioned if the editors here feel they need to have a criticisms section of JW on the main page. If they are going to raise many damaging criticisms, then regardless of their personal viewpoint, or the personal viewpoint of apostates they quote from, then a reasonable explanation or rebuttal is necessary on all of these issues. Natural (talk) 11:22, 5 July 2010 (UTC)Natural
- Why are JWs so very in love with the word apostate? And yet apostates who leave other religions to become JWs are never referred to as such. The pejorative usage is clearly an ad hominem thought-terminating cliché. But all that aside, the article simply notes that critics have said JW literature places coercive pressure on JWs to preach. Whether JWs believe what those critics have said do not alter what the critics say, nor the statements in JW literature that support such reasoning.--Jeffro77 (talk) 11:36, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
This statement misrepresents what JW beleive
Jehovah's Witnesses consider secular society to be morally corrupt. I've tried a number of times to more accurately represent what JW believe here, but have not yet been successful. Any suggestions? Natural (talk) 20:32, 3 July 2010 (UTC)Natural
- WT 93 1/15 "But he knew that permanent relief could not be had within the framework of a human society that was under divine condemnation because of inborn sin and that was being manipulated by unseen wicked spirit forces."
- WT 84 6/1 "In a world that is morally corrupt and dark, the witness of Jehovah must stand out brilliantly as an illuminator."
- WT 81 8/15 "As for us, we can agree that the world today is likewise morally corrupt."
- WT 80 9/15 "Like Sodom, the old system of things on earth today may appear attractive. But that appearance is deceptive. Actually, that system is morally corrupt, and its destruction is just as certain to come as God’s fiery judgment came on ancient Sodom."
- WT 73 2/1 "One would have to live as a hermit, isolated from human society altogether, if one would avoid all contact with worldly people. However, beyond the association that is absolutely necessary at our secular jobs, at school, while one is in the field ministry, or at other times, there should not be any desire to expose ourselves to the corrosive thinking and often perverted conduct of worldly people."
- WT 60 2/15 "Any person that loves righteousness should be sickened by the corrupt state of modern society ... No wonder that God, through his Word, commanded Christians to have no friendship with the world. To have friendship for it would make one an enemy of God. But because modern society is corrupt, it does not mean that a society without crime is impossible."
- My suggestion is to leave it as it is. It is an accurate reflection of WTS teaching. BlackCab (talk) 11:43, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
- Have to agree with BlackCab on this one. The only half-hearted suggestion I could offer is to use one of the Watchtower's terms listed here, such as "modern society", "the world", or "human society" rather than "secular society". Natural, perhaps you could explain what part of that statement you feel is an unfair portrayal of JW belief? Is there a way to say it that conserves the true meaning without insinuating the part which you feel is untrue? ...comments? ~BFizz 04:42, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
Violation of NPOV in Criticisms section -introductory sentence of serious accusations against Jehovah's Witnesses
It would not be necessary or advisable for Misplaced Pages to draw emphasis to the serious accusations against Jehovah's Witnesses, including highlighting in an introductory sentence the accusation of sexual abuse, in the beginning of the criticisms section. These were in a sentence, with no rebuttal in that sentence, and that would violate the neutral point of view of Misplaced Pages.69.115.172.182 (talk) 11:49, 5 July 2010 (UTC)Natural
- The sentence, which read "Jehovah's Witnesses have attracted criticism over issues surrounding their Bible translation, doctrines, their handling of sexual abuse cases and what is claimed to be coercion of members" was a summary of the areas of criticism. It does not breach policies on editorial neutrality, nor does it need any rebuttal. BlackCab (talk) 12:08, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
- On this point and some others, I'm going to wait to see what is accepted by the editors. But I'm going to appeal to the NPOV page, because there is an anti-Jehovah's Witness bias here by the main editors of this page. So, I'm going to wait a few days, to see what transpires in the editing, but after that, I'm going to post a message on the NPOV.
- First, this editorial team argued very forcefully against taking the majority of the criticisms off of this page, and leaving it where there is already a 6,000 word article on criticisms of Jehovah's Witnesses. Second, any attempts to clarify the position of Jehovah's Witnesses are forcefully surpressed. Apostate views are being strongly propagated. So, I'll wait a few days, but by the end of next week, depending where we stand, I'm going to post on the NPOV.
- On this point and some others, I'm going to wait to see what is accepted by the editors. But I'm going to appeal to the NPOV page, because there is an anti-Jehovah's Witness bias here by the main editors of this page. So, I'm going to wait a few days, to see what transpires in the editing, but after that, I'm going to post a message on the NPOV.
- This particular edit, highlighting the criticisms section, emphasizing it, adds weight to the critical arguments against Jehovah's Witnesses. Additionally, by surpressing attempts to clarify this information with quotes which support Jehovah's Witnesses, or quotes from Jehovah's Witness literature clarifying this view, a strong case is presented against Jehovah's Witnesses by Misplaced Pages.
- The purpose of the two main editors of wikipedia at the present time on this page seems to be to present a negative bias against Jehovah's Witnesses and a strong case for criticisms against Jehovah's Witnesses, while surpressing anything information and quotes which disagree with their bias.Natural (talk) 12:21, 5 July 2010 (UTC)Natural
- "This editorial team argued very forcefully against taking the majority of the criticisms off of this page. What garbage. In fact I trimmed the section as an act of good faith after your barrage of complaints. The only person attempting to "suppress" information is you. You have run a one-man campaign to remove criticisms of your religion from the article and have continued to delete material tonight. It is possible your intent is to ensure that members of the public who do show curiousity about the religion discover as little as possible about areas of criticism. Fortunately Misplaced Pages is not subject to the same powers of information control that your religion has. Despite your obsession with censoring criticism, the article is still strongly neutral and contains far more positive and neutral information about the religion than negative material. BlackCab (talk) 13:07, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
- The criticism section presents criticism as found in notable sources. The section does not state that those criticisms are right or wrong; it simply presents them. While it is appropriate to have clarifying statements from JW literature, it is both unnecessary and inappropriate to try to disprove the criticisms or rebut with apologetics.--Jeffro77 (talk) 13:22, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
- "This editorial team argued very forcefully against taking the majority of the criticisms off of this page. What garbage. In fact I trimmed the section as an act of good faith after your barrage of complaints. The only person attempting to "suppress" information is you. You have run a one-man campaign to remove criticisms of your religion from the article and have continued to delete material tonight. It is possible your intent is to ensure that members of the public who do show curiousity about the religion discover as little as possible about areas of criticism. Fortunately Misplaced Pages is not subject to the same powers of information control that your religion has. Despite your obsession with censoring criticism, the article is still strongly neutral and contains far more positive and neutral information about the religion than negative material. BlackCab (talk) 13:07, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
James Beverly quote
James Beverly's book is quoted with respect to mind control. Again. That resource is not readily available on the pages mentioned for reference. Are there please exact quotes that can be presented on James Beverly stating the JW use mind control? Is James Beverly quoting Ray Franz? Does he use different terms that the editors are interpolating as "mind control". If please the exact quotes and context of those quotes could be provided. Thanks. Natural (talk) 12:05, 5 July 2010 (UTC)Natural Reference in question - 305^ James A. Beverley, Crisis of Allegiance, Welch Publishing Company, Burlington, Ontario, 1986, ISBN 0920413374, pages 25-26, 101.Natural (talk) 12:06, 5 July 2010(UTC)Natural
- Beverley does not use the words "mind control" at that point. In the sections of his book cited in the article he does claim that a complex set of forces created by the WTS results in Witnesses surrendering their ability to make personal decisions, with the result that, given conflicting claims about their religion, they believe only what they are told by the Governing Body. Beverley has included a fairly lengthy section about the "intellectual dominance" of members by the WTS and its warnings "about independent thinking and the peril of questioning the organization". On page 101 he writes of the "fear of disobedience to the Governing Body" that keeps JWs from checking, among other things, allegations of false prophecy, faulty scholarship and injustice. He notes: "Witnesses are told not to read books like this one and there would be resistance to in-depth investigatiuon of disupted issues in the Watch Tower's past or present". He quotes an observation by another author (not Franz) that JW dogmatism "is characterised by complete absence of tolerance and the presence of a rigid opinion that the professor refuses to alter even in the face of contrary facts -- it is the facts that are altered or ignored where they do not fit in". His claims are an adequate supporting reference to the statement, mainly drawn from Franz, that critics accuse the WTS "of causing mental isolation with the intent of mind control".
- It's a good book, Scott. You'd find it very interesting. I bought mine through Amazon, I think. It's written by someone who was never a JW and is therefore not an apostate, and it certainly describes a set of events you'll never read about in the Watchtower, which will only ever present a distorted one-sided view. BlackCab (talk) 12:54, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
- It seems like Beverley read R. Franz's book and is reiterating it. Franz wrote Crisis of Conscience. Beverley wrote Crisis of Allegiance. Both seem to say basically the same thing.Natural (talk) 15:34, 5 July 2010 (UTC)Natural
- Having read Beverley's book, unlike you, I would say it is his own observation. You seem to do nothing but reiterate what you read in Watch Tower Society publications, which provide you with your complete set of beliefs and opinions. BlackCab (talk) 22:43, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
- You are very much mistaken about that. I'm making my own observation about the very close similarity between the two books in their titles, and from what I could see the content. You are mistaken about my editing here, my beliefs, and Watchtower publications. Much of what is what might be considered, putting JW in a bad light is in both the Proclaimers book, and the 1975 Yearbook. Also, new material from JW, also doesn't gloss over the errors in the history of the organization. The only thing lacking is vitrolic hatred. Besides that, everything is out in the open from JW themselves, including the errors.Natural (talk) 17:36, 7 July 2010 (UTC)Natural
- I think it's a bit much to assume that any one particular thought from Beverley's book must be derived from Franz on the basis that the books have similar titles. (I have not read either book.)
- Also, while there are some relatively frank admissions in Proclaimers, there are issues of bias including in regard to Russell and Rutherford in comparison to any who disagreed with them. Additionally, the book and other JW publications claim that Bible Students are simply 'as JWs were then known', minimizing the schism in the Bible Student movement rather than acknowledging that "Bible Students" continued to (and still) exist separately to JWs.--Jeffro77 (talk) 08:28, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
- You are very much mistaken about that. I'm making my own observation about the very close similarity between the two books in their titles, and from what I could see the content. You are mistaken about my editing here, my beliefs, and Watchtower publications. Much of what is what might be considered, putting JW in a bad light is in both the Proclaimers book, and the 1975 Yearbook. Also, new material from JW, also doesn't gloss over the errors in the history of the organization. The only thing lacking is vitrolic hatred. Besides that, everything is out in the open from JW themselves, including the errors.Natural (talk) 17:36, 7 July 2010 (UTC)Natural
- Having read Beverley's book, unlike you, I would say it is his own observation. You seem to do nothing but reiterate what you read in Watch Tower Society publications, which provide you with your complete set of beliefs and opinions. BlackCab (talk) 22:43, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
Mead's quote stating that Jehovah's Witnesses are not "blind fanaticism" necessary in criticisms section
Even though the Misplaced Pages criticisms section does not come out and say that Jehovah's Witnesses are blindly fanatic, it implies it with the string of accusations made against it, including that of it's position on blood transfusions. Therefore, the use of that quote in the criticisms section is warranted and necessary, in defending the collective position of Jehovah's Witnesses in all of these areas. If it is the desire of the editors here to put that quote in the conclusion or elsewhere in the criticisms section, that would be fine, but it fits into the context of the current sentence.Natural (talk) 12:09, 5 July 2010 (UTC)Natural
- There is no reason to introduce the term "blind fanaticism" as a rebuttal without first indicating such a claim. More generally, the article simply indicates what critics have said. The article does not need to prove those criticisms right or wrong.--Jeffro77 (talk) 12:23, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
- The statement is unrelated to the criticism, which is that the religion coerces members to do certain things, usually by means of the threat to expell those who disagree and require that all JW associates and family avoid speaking to them or acknowledging them for the rest of their lives, a technique not uncommon in high-control cults. Your statement about blind fanaticism relates to a separate issue concerning the docile, unquestioning obedience of members out of a misplaced sense of loyalty. One is not a rebuttal of the other. BlackCab (talk) 12:28, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
- Good point about the seperate issue concerning where the point is more appropriate to be placed. Natural (talk) 13:33, 5 July 2010 (UTC)Natural
- The statement is unrelated to the criticism, which is that the religion coerces members to do certain things, usually by means of the threat to expell those who disagree and require that all JW associates and family avoid speaking to them or acknowledging them for the rest of their lives, a technique not uncommon in high-control cults. Your statement about blind fanaticism relates to a separate issue concerning the docile, unquestioning obedience of members out of a misplaced sense of loyalty. One is not a rebuttal of the other. BlackCab (talk) 12:28, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
Verifiable Misplaced Pages-worthy sources needed for statement/accusation
Concerning the accusation that former Jehovah's Witnesses make about "false prophet", Misplaced Pages makes this statement, "Some former Jehovah's Witnesses have accused the religion of being a false prophet for making those predictions, particularly because of assertions in some cases that the predictions were beyond doubt or had been approved by God." Are there verifiable sources that meet Misplaced Pages standards for this claim? If so what are they? thanks.Natural (talk) 13:36, 5 July 2010 (UTC)Natural
- I have removed the unsourced statement claiming that it merely 'former members' that make the accusation of being a 'false prophet'. The JWs' Reasoning book contains a section for responding to a 'common objection' that JWs are false prophets, (page 137) which could be used as a source noting that it is a widespread accusation if another suitable reference cannot be found.--Jeffro77 (talk) 13:47, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
Sources used to support that Jehovah's Witnesses claim to be a prophet
There are different ways of using the term prophet. Jehovah's Witnesses, in the quoted sources listed in Misplaced Pages, refer to themselves as a prophet in the sense that they are used by God to "preach the good news of God's Kingdom." They do not refer to themselves in these references as a prophet in the sense that Misplaced Pages here accuses them, that is in giving predication of events to come, which is how most people consider the use of the term prophet.
- These are the four references -
- 1. w72 4/1 p. 200 ‘They Shall Know that a Prophet Was Among Them’ ***
The scroll was doubtless delivered to Ezekiel by the hand of one of the cherubs in the vision. This would indicate that Jehovah’s witnesses today make their declaration of the good news of the Kingdom under angelic direction and support. (Rev. 14:6, 7; Matt. 25:31, 32) And since no word or work of Jehovah can fail, for he is God Almighty, the nations will see the fulfillment of what these witnesses say as directed from heaven.
- Yes, the time must come shortly that the nations will have to know that really a “prophet” of Jehovah was among them. Actually now more than a million and a half persons are helping that collective or composite “prophet” in his preaching work and well over that number of others are studying the Bible with the “prophet” group and its companions.
- 2. w59 1/15 p. 40 par. 12 Down with the Old—Up with the New! ***
They have specialized on preaching just one thing, and that is, God’s kingdom of good news. This they have preached, as Jesus commanded, “for the purpose of a witness to all the nations,” including the nations behind the Iron Curtain.
- All the preaching and all the Bible educational work that they have done till now in 175 countries and islands of the sea they confess has been, not by help of a military army, nor by human power, but by God’s spirit, his invisible active force. (Zech. 4:6, AV) It has been because Jehovah thrust out his hand of power and touched their lips and put his words in their mouths. It has evidently been because he commissioned them to be over the nations and over the kingdoms. Happy are all those who have seen what the work of Jehovah God for now is and who have volunteered to do it.
- 3. w97 5/1 p. 19 par. 5 Messengers of Godly Peace Pronounced Happy ***
- “This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.” (Matthew 24:14)
- Jehovah’s messengers of godly peace back in 1919 as they set out to preach the good news to all mankind
- following 1935, the witnessing work was carried forward with increased momentum by these faithful companions.
- 4. This reference does not refer to Jehovah's Witnesses as a prophet.
- Kingdom Proclaimers p. 708 says nothing about JW being any type of prophet. Rather, it says,
- jv chap. 31 pp. 708-709 How Chosen and Led by God ***
Do not interpretations belong to God?” (Gen. 40:8) If in their study of the Scriptures a certain passage is difficult to understand, they must search to find other inspired passages that shed light on the subject. Thus they let the Bible interpret itself, and from this they endeavor to understand “the pattern” of truth set forth in God’s Word. (2 Tim. 1:13) Jehovah leads or guides them to such understanding by means of his holy spirit. But to get the guidance of that spirit, they must cultivate its fruitage, not grieve or work against it, and keep responsive to its proddings. (Gal. 5:22, 23, 25; Eph. 4:30) Moreover, by zealously applying what they learn, they keep building up their faith, as a basis for gaining clearer and clearer understanding of how they must do God’s will in the world of which they are no part.—Luke 17:5; Phil. 1:9, 10.
- Jehovah’s dealings with his chosen servants in Bible times confirm that clear understanding of his will and purposes often comes gradually. It should not surprise us that in modern times too, Jehovah has often led his people as a progressive organization, gradually enlightening them as to Bible truths. It is not the truths themselves that change.
- The Misplaced Pages article therefore, is not using these references accurately, in terms of trying to create an argument accusing Jehovah's witnesses of making false predications and being a prophet in that sense. Jehovah's Witnesses do not claim that, but it is an interpolation, beyond what Jehovah's Witnesses have written about themselves. Natural (talk) 14:18, 5 July 2010 (UTC)Natural
- You don't need to 'prove' that the criticism is wrong. The article simply presents what has been said.--Jeffro77 (talk) 14:46, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
- The Misplaced Pages article therefore, is not using these references accurately, in terms of trying to create an argument accusing Jehovah's witnesses of making false predications and being a prophet in that sense. Jehovah's Witnesses do not claim that, but it is an interpolation, beyond what Jehovah's Witnesses have written about themselves. Natural (talk) 14:18, 5 July 2010 (UTC)Natural
- Jeffro,the Misplaced Pages article is weaving its own argument, not based on verifiable sources, misquoting Watchtower material to try to prove its own point. That is fine for your own blog, but it's not encyclopedic, or up to Misplaced Pages standards. These are misquotes.Natural (talk) 15:33, 5 July 2010 (UTC)Natural
- This was discussed at length here. Witnesses may squirm at their religion being described as a false prophet, but when it has suited it, the WTS has been quite happy to describe itself as a "prophet organization" and has certainly been comfortable with a role in which it announces to the world things it believes will happen in the near future. As noted in this and related articles, WTS publications made specific predictions of events that would take place in specific years. They were made with dogmatic statements that they were God's dates, not theirs and were completely reliable. None occurred. BlackCab (talk) 23:45, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
- However you personally wish to interpret the Watchtower literature, that's your private interpretation, and that is fine. However, what you are saying the Watchtower literature is saying in those 4 references, is misquoting the publications. If you have other references that support the claim you are making, or if you have references up to Misplaced Pages standards to use that's fine also, but Misplaced Pages is not the place to weave your private interpretations or speculations. So, that particular sentence is creating a synthesis that the Watchtower literature does not create, but that the editor in this case wants it to create. These references, then, do not support the thesis that the Misplaced Pages editor is endeavoring to create, and cannot be used. Perhaps there are other references that support this idea, but these do not, and as it is, it would have to be edited to maintain the integrity of the article and the stated purpose of Misplaced Pages.Natural (talk) 17:26, 7 July 2010 (UTC)Natural
If you wish to use the references that you had before for the statement that is there now, it would be accurate. That Jehovah's Witnesses have stated that God has used them as a prophet in terms of their role in the kingdom preaching work. The two older references that are referred to do support that statement. But the statement that Jehovah's Witnesses more or less declare themselves to be a prophet to pronounce future events, is not one that is supported by Watchtower literature. It is creating a synthesis, which is not permitted by Misplaced Pages. The way it is edited now, maintains the integrity of the thoughts expressed by the Watcthower literature, and removes the synthesis that the Misplaced Pages editor himself created.Natural (talk) 17:33, 7 July 2010 (UTC)Natural
- So, if another religion interprets a scripture as meaning that such-and-such will happen at some time, they're making a false prophecy. But if JWs interpret a scripture as meaning that such-and-such will happen at some time, they're simply indicating a possible interpretation of scripture. Seems like a bit of a double-standard. However, it is irrelevant. The relevant fact here is that the religion has been called a "false prophet", and JW literature has acknowledged that others have called it such. It is entirely appropriate to note the sourced criticism in a criticism section.--Jeffro77 (talk) 08:32, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages standards in criticism section and througout the article
In the criticisms section, one can quote other sources for their alleged criticisms, but it is not the place to invent one's own criticims using Watchtower sources to support one's gripe or argument. So, in the mentioning of "bloodguilt" and the preaching work, that statement would be permissable, if there was a Misplaced Pages-worthy reference or references of those who make that criticism, but it wouldn't be the place to use a Watchtower reference to strenghten one's argument, or to air one's personal grievance. Does Ray Franz or others use that argument? Then that can be used. The "others" in this section cannot be used at present, that is James Penton, because we still don't have a quote from his book, the pages 114-116 are not avaialable, and until the editor who wishes to use that reference can come up with verifiable proof that that is in fact what Penton stated, then it wouldn't be up to the Misplaced Pages code. There have been a number of unsubstantiated references up until this point that have had to be removed because they do not support the statements made. We don't know, at this point, what Penton's actual statements were on this reference. Natural (talk) 17:58, 7 July 2010 (UTC)Natural
- You are simply continuing with your campaign to remove criticism from the article and have seized upon the novel idea that sourced statements should be removed because you haven't read the book. Please read WP:SOURCEACCESS. BlackCab (talk) 21:05, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
Accuracy of statment about C.T. Russell and Armageddon -1874
In this reference, 18^ C. T. Russell, The Time of the End, Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society, 1889, page 101.
did Russell say that Armageddon began in 1874 or that Christ's presence began in 1874? I think it was Christ's presence, not Armageddon. (mistatement here and wrong grammar also, begun rather than began). Natural (talk) 18:09, 7 July 2010 (UTC)Natural
- The wording "Armageeddon began in 1874" does seem a bit odd, and whether or not those were Russel's words, the statement may be unclear to the reader. ...comments? ~BFizz 22:49, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
- From page 101: "Be not surprised, then, when in subsequent chapters we present proofs that the setting up of the Kingdom of God is already begun, that it is pointed out in prophecy as due to begin the exercise of power in A. D. 1878, and that the "battle of the great day of God Almighty " (Rev. 16: 14.), which will end in A. D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership, is already commenced. The gathering of the armies is plainly visible from the standpoint of God's Word." (In a later edition "1914" was replaced with "1915". See also p.141 and p.250.) I think his statement is quite clear and should be understood by most readers. Download the book at . BlackCab (talk) 06:29, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
- An editor can question an interpretation with {{Template:Request quotation}}, which displays as.
In this case, BlackCab proactively posted above a relevant quote from the citation, which is good. Sadly, however, BlackCab aka LTSally has often misinterpreted original sources, and does so again here. Most obviously, the misinterpretation ignores the plain words with which Russell concludes the cited work; Russell writes: "the Battle of the Great Day of God Almighty is impending " (The Time is At Hand by C. T. Russell, ©1889 Watch Tower, page 365, emphasis added).
Even though Russell wrote on page 101 that the "battle of the great day of God Almighty...is already commenced", his meaning is clear for two reasons:
1. "Commence" has a different connotation than "begin", and is more likely to be understood as anticipatory (perhaps "set to begin" versus "literally in progress").
2. For decades, Watch Tower publications have taught that the Bible uses the terms "Jehovah's day" and "day of Jehovah" in reference to the period of "great tribulation" which leads up to and includes Armageddon.- The Watchtower, January 1, 1971, page 31, "That day of Jehovah’s anger is the foretold “great tribulation,” including Armageddon"
- Thus, a reader today or in 1889 might infer "Armageddon" when "great tribulation" was intended. I've edited the article to remove the misinterpretation. --AuthorityTam (talk) 21:16, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
- An editor can question an interpretation with {{Template:Request quotation}}, which displays as.
- From page 101: "Be not surprised, then, when in subsequent chapters we present proofs that the setting up of the Kingdom of God is already begun, that it is pointed out in prophecy as due to begin the exercise of power in A. D. 1878, and that the "battle of the great day of God Almighty " (Rev. 16: 14.), which will end in A. D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership, is already commenced. The gathering of the armies is plainly visible from the standpoint of God's Word." (In a later edition "1914" was replaced with "1915". See also p.141 and p.250.) I think his statement is quite clear and should be understood by most readers. Download the book at . BlackCab (talk) 06:29, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
- Wrong on both points. (1) There is no ambiguity in Russell's use of the word "begun". At page 250, he wrote: "And since, as we have just shown, the great Day of Jehovah began in A. D. 1874, will continue forty years, and will end with the expiration of Gentile Times in the complete overthrow of worldly and Satanic dominion in the earth, and the full investiture of Immanuel - Christ Jesus and his saints - with all power and dominion, it is important for us to show here that Elijah has come."
- (2) AuthorityTam is imposing on Russell's writings his own errant interpretation in suggesting that his reference to "the great day of God Almighty" meant the current Jehovah's Witness concept of the great tribulation. Russell, as far as I can see, didn't use the term "great tribulation" in that context.
- Today's Watch Tower theology is fairly clear on one point. The Watchtower of April 1, 2008, notes: "Armageddon, or Har–Magedon, is also known as “the war of the great day of God the Almighty.” Jehovah God will use his Son, Christ Jesus, to muster an angelic army to war against the combined forces of all the wicked rulers of the earth.—Revelation 16:14; 19:11-16."
- Russell clearly believed God's great war had begun in 1874 and would last 40 years. That "war" in Rev 16:14, which he cites, is two verses later identified as occurring at Armageddon. Today that war is still identified by the WTS as Armageddon. It seems reasonable to me to say that Russell believed Armageddon had begun in 1874. Only later did Rutherford alter the date of Armageddon, shifting it to a future point. BlackCab (talk) 21:51, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
- It is silly and ignorant for BlackCab aka LTSally to pretend that Rutherford was the first to teach that Armageddon was "a future point". The Watch Tower of September 1914 carried a subheading by Russell entitled "Armageddon Still Future":
- Watch Tower, September 1914, page 260, Reprints 5527, "While it is possible that Armageddon may begin next Spring, yet it is purely speculation to attempt to say just when."
- So...it seems best to simply state some facts.
- Russell's concept of Armageddon was different from that of most Christians (then and now), including current Jehovah's Witnesses.
- Russell used terms like 'great day of God Almighty' far far more often than he used the explicit term "Armageddon" (perhaps to avoid a disconnect with readers' understanding of the latter term?).
- In 1881 and 1883, Russell used the explicit term "Armageddon" in reference to yet-future events.
- Watch Tower, June 1881, page 4, Reprints 233, " Israel shall be "brought back from the sword," and numbers of the Jews are to return... That it will result in all the nations of Europe being gathered together in the great battle of Armageddon. ...I ask what of the outlook? Are they being fulfilled as evidence that God has spoken? Most assuredly they are. The Jews are slowly but surely turning their wandering feet toward Jerusalem."
- Watch Tower, July 1883, page 6, Reprints 510, "Armageddon means mount of DESTRUCTION; and this describes what will be the result of this doctrine. It will unite all these systems in one cause as against the masses of the people and their liberties, and the result will be the total destruction of all those erroneous systems of Church and State. They shall fall."
- Despite claims that Russell dated Armageddon to 1874 in his 1889 work, the fact is that page 365 of the very work says explicitly that "the Battle of the Great Day of God Almighty is impending", that is, it is yet-future.
- The article should prefer a quote from Russell over a questionable interpretation of Russell.
- --AuthorityTam (talk) 07:22, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
- It is silly and ignorant for BlackCab aka LTSally to pretend that Rutherford was the first to teach that Armageddon was "a future point". The Watch Tower of September 1914 carried a subheading by Russell entitled "Armageddon Still Future":
- Russell clearly believed God's great war had begun in 1874 and would last 40 years. That "war" in Rev 16:14, which he cites, is two verses later identified as occurring at Armageddon. Today that war is still identified by the WTS as Armageddon. It seems reasonable to me to say that Russell believed Armageddon had begun in 1874. Only later did Rutherford alter the date of Armageddon, shifting it to a future point. BlackCab (talk) 21:51, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
- You're quite right, AuthorityTam, that by 1914, when he wrote the Watchtower article you quote, Russell was already backtracking as fast as he could, altering the dates of his predictions with each revised edition of his books to cover the failure of his predictions. The sentence of the article we're discussing, however, relates to what he wrote in 1889, when he saw the "great day of God Almighty" of Revelation 16 (or Armageddon, or the "great tribulation" as he was calling it by 1897, in The Battle of Armageddon) as a 40-year event that had begun in 1874. The fudging of dates to cover prophectic failures was a pattern the Watch Tower Society still follows faithfully, hoping no one notices. And very successfully too, as seen by the most recent doctrines of the overlapping generations.
- And thanks for the new personal insult. It hasn't taken you long to revert to your usual level of discussion, despite the complaints made against you here. I particularly like the way you ducked for cover as soon as the complaints were made rather than deal with the issue and resurfaced when you thought it was safe. Very noble behavior. BlackCab (talk) 11:29, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
- Indeed; even when AuthorityTam was explicitly advised to strike out the irrelevant and dishonest information from the AfDs, he failed to do so, but instead simply dropped off the editing radar for a couple of weeks.--Jeffro77 (talk) 12:01, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
- Informed editors likely recognize disingenuousness in the protestations of BlackCab aka LTSally.
Returning to the thread...the relevant section of the article currently uses the terms Russell himself used; it says: "Russell taught that "the 'battle of the great day of God Almighty' ... is already commenced" and would culminate with the overthrow of all political rulership in 1914". That avoids confusing readers with a far-from-irrefutable and likely-misleading insistence on the term "Armageddon" there. There seems little encyclopedic reason to change it back, is there?
My interest here is neither in hiding nor in exaggerating Russell's faults. My interest here is in improving the quality of this encyclopedia and in furthering the best interests of the Misplaced Pages community. While I'd enjoy spending more time on Misplaced Pages, other responsibilities prevent that. Incidentally, I've not been dishonest. Please note that accurate terms such as "ignorant" (that is, "uninformed") are not "personal insult" when accompanied by the informing references; in any event, that pales in comparison with the invective heaped by others.
--AuthorityTam (talk) 15:51, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
- And thanks for the new personal insult. It hasn't taken you long to revert to your usual level of discussion, despite the complaints made against you here. I particularly like the way you ducked for cover as soon as the complaints were made rather than deal with the issue and resurfaced when you thought it was safe. Very noble behavior. BlackCab (talk) 11:29, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
Excessive sequence of edits
User:Naturalpsychology has made a series of 15 successive edits containing a range of inaccuracies and injection of POV. These included the deletion of sourced statements and the fallacious claim that sociologist Stark "disagreed" with a statement about autocratic leadership when he answered no such claim. I have reverted the lot rather than picking through them one by one to undo the inaccuracies. It is unhelpful to make so many significant changes in one hit, thus making it difficult to challenge or correct them singly. Please edit this article in a more measured and reasonable fashion. BlackCab (talk) 21:18, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
- Also, Natural, please provide an edit summary for each edit, explaining why you are making the change. ...comments? ~BFizz 22:46, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
- Some of the edits were relatively minor. However...
- The assumption that "Armageddon" should be changed to "Christ's presence" in relation to 1874 was simply wrong.
- The Photo-Drama is already appropriately mentioned in the Bible Student movement article, and it does not add anything significant to this article. Russell was not a JW, and this article only needs information about Russell that is relevant to the development of JW doctrines and corporations.
- I haven't seen any evidence that President Wilson personally intervened in releasing Rutherford, only that a letter was written to him, and that a petition was started but never shown to him. If he did take direct action, please provide a source.
- The comment about elders appointed locally could remain if it can be sourced.
- There seems no good reason to remove references to JW publications indicating the manner in which JWs claimed to be a "prophet"; JW publications have explicitly claimed that they have been given "advance knowledge" by god, and there the wording "In some instances, the Watchtower has offered interpretations of Bible prophecy, concerning knowledge of future world events" comes across as apologetic.
- There might be a middle-ground for the two versions regarding the presentation of Stark's comments; I'll think about that more a little later.
- It does not seem honest to remove a Penton reference about JW preaching and then say that only Franz says something about preaching.
- There is no reason to water down what is said in JW literature about failing to preach resulting in blood guilt, though I don't have a problem with either must/should later in the sentence.
- Failure to specifically mention the other relatively minor edits does not constitute endorsement.--Jeffro77 (talk) 09:06, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
- Some of the edits were relatively minor. However...
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