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Marine Corps Hearing

There are a few elements in the section regarding Kokesh's upcoming hearing that are inaccurate, from my understanding of the UCMJ and Marine Corps regulations.

• They are not "changing" Kokesh's discharge. He has already been discharged once, from active duty to the IRR. The upcoming discharge is his complete discharge from the service.
• Being in the IRR does not mean you are not under Marine Corps jurisdiction. You are still a reservist, subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
• He is not being recalled to active duty. He was given the opportunity to waive his right to appear before a hearing, and chose to do so. Doing so does not mean he is on "Active Duty."

Unless anyone can provide documentation that shows any of those elements are false, I'll be changing them shortly.--Uhlek 19:38, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I think you're probably right. There is just so much spin happening with this story that all of the media are reporting inaccurately. But that's standard. —Kenyon (t·c) 06:20, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

The hearing is scheduled for today, I'll wait until after the hearing results are announced to make the needed changes. --Uhlek 16:06, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Papers are reporting that the panel has recommended a General Discharge; whether higher will do that is unknown, as is whether Kokesh will appeal. I'd rather not edit the story, and there's no telling what mis-understandings of military law the papers have. http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/nation/4861746.html htom 03:48, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Your second point is incorrect. Reservists are not subject to the UCMJ except when under a paid status. UCMJ 1-802.2 is clearly worded on what persons are subject to the UCMJ. Even drilling reservists are not subject except during AT, ADT, and drill times. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.207.126.151 (talk • contribs) 18:32, June 5, 2007 (UTC)

Your understanding seems to differ from the Air Force's html at http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/ucmj.htm htom 19:25, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually, that link confirms my statement. Let's go through it sentence by sentence if we must: 802. ART. 2. PERSONS SUBJECT TO THIS CHAPTER

(a) The following persons are subject to this chapter: (1) Members of a regular component of the armed forces, including those awaiting discharge after expiration of their terms of enlistment; volunteers from the time of their muster or acceptance into the armed forces; inductees from the time of their actual induction into the armed forces; and other persons lawfully called or ordered into, or to duty in or for training in the armed forces, from the dates when they are required by the terms of the call or order to obey it. (Mr. Kokesh was not a member of a regular component so (1) does not apply.) (2) Cadets, aviation cadets, and midshipman. (None of these categories apply.) (3) Members of a reserve component while on inactive-duty training, but in the case of members of the Army National Guard of the United States or the Air National Guard of the United States only when in Federal Service. (Mr. Kokesh was not on inactive-duty training which includes ADT and AT as well as drills--none of which are performed by the IRR.) (4) Retired members of a regular component of the armed forces who are entitled to pay. (Again, does not apply.) (5) Retired members of a reserve component who are receiving hospitalization from an armed force. (Does not apply.) (6) Members of the Fleet Reserve and Fleet Marine Corps Reserve. (These are people who have retired with at least 20 years but fewer than 30 years of service, therefore it does not apply.) (7) Persons in custody of the armed forces serving a sentence imposed by a court-martial. (Does not apply.) (8) Members of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, Public Health Service, and other organizations, when assigned to and serving with the armed forces. (Does not apply.) (9) Prisoners of war in custody of the armed forces. (Does not apply.) (10) In time of war, persons serving with or accompanying an armed force in the field. (Does not apply.) (11) Subject to any treaty or agreement which the United States is or may be a party to any accepted rule of international law, persons serving with, employed by, or accompanying the armed forces outside the United States and outside the Canal Zone, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Virgin Islands. (Does not apply.) (12) Subject to any treaty or agreement t which the United States is or may be a party to any accepted rule of international law, persons within an area leased by or otherwise reserved or acquired for use of the United States which is under the control of the Secretary concerned and which is outside the United States and outside the Canal Zone, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Virgin Islands. (Does not apply.)

So, you see, "my interpretation" matches the plain text of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.207.126.151 (talk • contribs) 00:29, June 6, 2007 (UTC)

It's been many many years, but my understanding is that he is, indeed, a member by (1); I am not a lawyer of any type, however, not even a seabag lawyer. We were taught (granted, back in the 1960's) that you were subject to the USMJ from the time you raised your hand until the end of your period of enlistment plus whatever Congress or the President wanted. I doubt it's shortened over the years, but it is possible (and if so, will be changed.) htom 03:21, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Your understanding (that he is a member under (1), would require Mr. Kokesh to be a member of a "regular component," which he clearly is not. He is a member of a Reserve Component. The definitions of these terms can be found in US Code: Title 10, 101. The clause of UCMJ-2.2(1) "including those awaiting discharge after expiration of their terms of enlistment", refers to Active duty members who have been involuntarily extended for reasons such as operational commitments, and stop-loss; who remain members of the Regular (Active) Component until they are transferred to the Reserves or fully discharged from service. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.207.126.151 (talk • contribs) 16:39, June 6, 2007 (UTC)

That's interesting. However, note that he was not being punished under the UCMJ. He was being administratively separated, which is a procedure outside the UCMJ. Either way, this far exceeds my layman's understanding of the UCMJ and military law, so, I'm just going to drop it. :) Uhlek 16:14, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Help

I've done what I can to fix a real weird thing that BlueMarine did but I'm not sure why he did it or just what to call what he did.

See for yourself

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User:Bluemarine/Adam_Kokesh&action=history

Kokesh shouldn't be mistaken for Bluemarine I know that much. Ncrage 00:15, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Bluemarine (aka Matt Sanchez) is a conservative blogger who works for Right Wing News. Bluemarine last edited the Adam Kokesh article on Oct. 1 using his IP address 213.255.230.132. As you can see here self-promotion appears to be the primary purpose of his last edit. He used the opportunity to add a link to his own web site. I think that's why he used his IP address instead of his username when he made the edit. I know for a fact that 213.255.230.132 is Matt Sanchez/Bluemarine because he used this IP several times when responding to comments on his talk page. JMarkievicz2 (talk) 04:24, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Heckling during McCain's speech at 2008 RNC

http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/tapped_archive?month=09&year=2008&base_name=interview_with_mccain_heckler

Adam Kokesh was the heckler who help up a sign at the beginning of McCain's acceptance speech at the RNC which read "McCain votes against vets" on one side and "You can't win an occupation" on the other side. After he was thrown out, he gave this brief interview. user:Everyme 03:19, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Rally for the Republic

Please add a reference to his speech at the Rally for the Republic. It is located on Youtube.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.167.231.150 (talk) 07:19, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

We can only do that if it's legally hosted on youtube and from what I've found, all instances of the clip are copyright violations. user:Everyme 06:07, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

I'd also like to point out that his comments at the Rally for the Republic were accurate, regarding, "When I went out to fight the War on Terrorism, I found that the real enemies were right here at home." This displayed his blatant disregard for the people who were trying to kill innocent Americans and tried to blame it on us. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.112.58.66 (talk) 18:13, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Discharge status?

In the lead, it says he has an honorable discharge; later, it says ... a general discharge under honorable conditions, a discharge status below honorable. Kokesh appealed the decision, and that appeal was denied. Was the general upgraded to honorable, and if so when, and if not, why doens't the lead say "general discharge under honorable conditions"? htom (talk) 21:28, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Now I've become confused. Was he ever granted an Honorable Discharge? (Note that there are three different discharges being talked about: Honorable Discharge (HD); General Discharge under honorable conditions (GH), General Discharge under other than honorable conditions(GO).) Was the hearing a request to change an HD to a GO, or was the hearing about whether to give him a GH or GO without his having received an HD? htom (talk) 16:38, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Here's how it happened according to the articles... He got out of the military with an honorable discharge. He remained in the IRR but was discharged with the honorable unless called back... The Marines tried to discharge him from the IRR with an "Other than Honorable" discharge, which would effectively downgrade the original honorable. So yes, he had an honorable discharge first... Note that there is no such thing as a "General Discharge under other than honorable" as you describe. The "other than honorable," known as an OTH, has serious consequences if allowed to happen. Kokesh successfully fought off this serious OTH and instead got the general discharge, which according to a quote from his lawyer, is a middle ground between bad and good so to speak and without the negative consequences that the Marines tried to get. So the hearing was convened by the Marines to seek the OTH due to the protest activity, but they fought it and got the general... make sense? Aardvark31 (talk) 18:55, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

If he remained in the IRR he wasn't discharged, he was separated or released. You get a discharge on the transition to not being in the military at all (other than the various militia duties.) There are (as far as I know) five kinds or characters of enlisted discharges:

• Honorable
• General (under honorable conditions) (sometimes can be upgraded to Honorable upon petition)
• General (under Other than Honorable conditions) (not upgradeable to Honorable)
• Bad Conduct (only from a Field or Special Court)
• Dishonorable (only from General Court; considered a felony conviction)

Looks like the language has changed, slightly, since I was typing these, but they are still the five.

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/justicelawlegislation/l/aadischarge1.htm

So he was separated to the IRR, generating a DD214 that says "character of service": HONORABLE; and he would have then normally received an Honorable Discharge at the end of that duty. (There are many reasons to issue a DD214, Discharge being one, others are moving to a different service, to the reserves, from the reserves to active, ....) Due to his behavior in the IRR he was considered not to have continued in that character of service status by the USMC, which proposed awarding him an OTH Discharge. His lawyer managed to get him a General Discharge, which is indeed better than an OTH, but not the Honorable Discharge he would have normally received administratively. There never was an Honorable Discharge, from your description, and there is not one now. htom (talk) 19:50, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

A reservist gets a DD-214 every time he or she leaves active duty. This means that one will be active for a month for training, and they will get a DD-214. After deployment and you get deactivated, another DD-214. Separation from the reserves, DD-214. His second to last DD-214 was honorable due to his speration from service. It is well documented and was the whole point of all the articles about this case. There is no question that he originally had an honorable discharge. His final DD-214 from involuntary separation from the IRR was a general... the "other than honorable" is always referred to as "other than honorable" or simply "OTH" and not as you describe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aardvark31 (talk • contribs) 20:20, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, they can accumulate a pile of them. But they don't say "Discharge" in box 11a, "Type of transfer or discharge" box, they say something else or one of the five above. He doesn't, from your description, have a DD-214 that says "Discharge" and "Honorable"; it says "SEP TO IRR ..." or somesuch and "Honorable". htom (talk) 20:34, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

When you separate from your obligation, you do get Honorable. In fact, I recall reading that he received an honorable discharge upon going into IRR, with a discharge code stating that he was banned from re-enlistment due to some negative circumstances (misconduct over smuggling a weapon from Iraq) surrounding his initial honorable discharge. Aardvark31 (talk) 21:19, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

He can't have gotten a discharge (of any character) into IRR, because when you're in IRR you're still under an obligation. He could have gotten a transfer into IRR with characterization "Honorable". (Well, there are typographical errors, but such an error is almost certainly going to be caught before the page leaves the typist's desk (hmmm, maybe with computers it wouldn't be!)) A discharge is leaving the military, a transfer is to a different part of the military. htom (talk) 02:57, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

that's it... he was transferred to the IRR early due to some misconduct, although his characterization was listed as honorable. But while he was on IRR status, the Marines apparently had enough. In any event, the lede paragraph is accurate. Aardvark31 (talk) 14:40, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

No, it's not. It says "his original honorable discharge" when there wasn't such a thing. How about changing

and is notable for wearing portions of his military uniform to anti-war protests and the attempts of the Marine Corps to effectively downgrade his original honorable discharge in response. Ultimately, the Marine Corps failed to secure the "other than honorable" discharge that was sought, with a military tribunal instead ruling that Kokesh was to receive a general discharge (under honorable conditions.)

into

and is notable (being a member of the IRR) for wearing portions of his military uniform to anti-war protests, and the subsequent attempt of the Marine Corps to downgrade his original characterization of service, when he was transfered into the IRR, "honorable", to "other than honorable" as his final discharge characterization. Ultimately, the Marine Corps failed to secure the "other than honorable" discharge that was sought, with a military tribunal instead ruling that Kokesh was to receive a general discharge (under honorable conditions.)

You change works, but is very wordy... I still contend it is correct the way it is. read the following from the LA Times:

Marine Cpl. Adam Kokesh had already received an honorable discharge from active duty before he was photographed in March wearing fatigues – with military insignia removed – during a mock patrol with other veterans protesting the Iraq war.

Kokesh received his honorable discharge after a combat tour in Iraq. He is now in the Individual Ready Reserve, a pool of former active-duty service members in unpaid, nondrill status.

A military panel in Kansas City, Mo., will hold a hearing Monday to decide whether he should be discharged from service and, if so, with what type of discharge.

Col. Dave Lapan, a Marine Corps spokesman, said Kokesh was under administrative review because he wore his uniform at a political event, which is prohibited. And, Lapan said, when a senior officer told Kokesh that he violated military regulations, Kokesh cursed and indicated he would not comply. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aardvark31 (talk • contribs) 17:21, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

The quote, itself, is contradictory, quoting an unknown someone saying that he had been discharged, and stating that there was to be a hearing to decide if he should be discharged (which implies that he hadn't been.)

It is wordy :(, I'll try again:

and is notable, as a member of the IRR (whose service was characterized as "Honorable" until that duty), for wearing portions of his military uniform to anti-war protests, and the subsequent attempt of the Marine Corps to downgrade the characterization of service to "other than honorable" at his final discharge. Ultimately, the Marine Corps failed to secure the "other than honorable" discharge sought, Kokesh failed to secure the "honorable discharge" he sought, with a military tribunal ruling that Kokesh was to receive a general discharge (under honorable conditions.)

or

and is notable, as a member of the IRR (whose service was characterized as "Honorable" until that duty), for wearing portions of his military uniform to anti-war protests, and the subsequent attempt of the Marine Corps to downgrade the characterization of his service to "other than honorable" at his final discharge. Ultimately, a military tribunal took the middle course, ruling that Kokesh was to receive a general discharge (under honorable conditions.)

htom (talk) 17:52, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Still think it is accurate way it is. Here's a quote from an article on this... Granted this quote is from "Truthout.org", but seems legit.

"Now that the Marine Corps is going after honorably discharged members, who are in fact civilians, for free speech rights, we are fighting back," Lebowitz said in a telephone interview Wednesday.

Context of quote was that he was "honorably" discharged from service and that the Marines were seeking to OTH him from the IRR.63.138.81.2 (talk) 19:51, 16 October 2008 (UTC)Aardvark31 (talk) 19:52, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

As a Marine, he should know better than to listen to political activists and their lawyers telling him he'd been discharged, rather than fellow Marines telling him he'd been transferred and not discharged; he wasn't discharged, he was a member of the IRR, and all of his woes come from the consequences of that erroneous understanding (well, this set of woes.) I won't say that it was intentional on the part of those who gave him the bad advice -- they may have been ignorant of the difference and the requirements -- but they were suspiciously ready to continue encouraging him in risking what would have been an honorable discharge, in exchange for getting them publicity that would make the Corps look bad. They've got the publicity, the USMC looks like a bully, and he doesn't have the Honorable Discharge he thought that he would end up with. I see one winner and two losers. (BTW, the USMC emblem is a part of the digital cameo pattern, so you can't remove it.) htom (talk) 21:21, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I think he has done well for himself in making a career out of political activism based from this case, so crocodile tears. But again, I respectfully contend that you are wrong about the original discharge. After going back to my own records, my DD-214 upon separating from the military and going into the IRR says "honorable." That convinces me that this does occur and you are honorable after separation from your actual service since IRR, like was argued in this case, is a non-pay, non-anything status unless you are called back to duty. Unless my DD-214 is wrong, this is definitive. Perhaps he posted his records online somewhere with ss# redacted? Aardvark31 (talk) 21:33, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Service is always characterized on any transfer (or it was when I was typing them) and it's rarely anything other than "honorable", unless someone is being discharged with other than an Honorable Discharge; if you were being sent somewhere with anything else in that block it was a head's up to those who were getting you that you'd screwed up big-time but managed to stay in. Your behavior on active duty was "honorable", and it was so noted when you transferred. (And 'thank you' for serving!) If you'd gone to BUDS, say, instead of IRR, it would say "honorable" when you then left BUDS and transferred to Special Forces, and then ... until you were finally discharged, when it would again say "honorable". Unless you screwed up, and it would say something else, and you would be usually be discharged, not transferred. "Honorable" means you've kept your nose clean, so far; I did see jackets where it was not that, and people turned their lives around and got back to a string of "honorables". Character of service and type of separation are different things. htom (talk) 22:22, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

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