Talk:March Days - Misplaced Pages

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Archives

Archive 1 (May 2006–Sept 2008)

Omission of Preceding Events

Baku proclaimed soviet power only 6 days after the victory of the Russian Revolution in Petrograd. The Musavat party took advantge of the Revolution to form its own "government." The nationalist counterrevolutionaries carried out forcible disarming of Russian troops and killed over 1000 Russians on a troop train who resisted this disarming. Organized attacks on Russians throughout Azerbaijan followed. At the end of February 1918, the Azerbaijani nationalist forces invaded Lenkoran and overthrew soviet power there.Kupredu (talk) 22:54, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

"Massacre"

The story of "massacre" is a dishonest attempt to rewrite history. This was not a "massacre", but was a state of civil war caused by an attempt by Azeri nationalists to unleash a coup d'etat in Baku during which there were casualties on all sides. Kupredu (talk) 17:41, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

There are many third party sources describing the massacre. Many included in the article, there are more. Grandmaster 18:15, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Third party sources I've seen describe the failed Azerbaijani nationalist coup d'etat as an episode of the Russian Civil War. Talk of "massacre" is really a misrepresentation of history. Kupredu (talk) 20:29, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

There was no coup d'etat. That was the communist propaganda, but communism is over now. This is how historians describe what happened:

On the basis of the material presented above it is possible to state that the Soviet provoked the "civil war" in the hope of breaking the power of its most formidable rival - the Musavat. However, once the Soviet had called upon the Dashnaktsutiun to lend its assistance in the struggle against the Azerbaijani nationalists, the "civil war" degenerated into a massacre, the Armenians killing the Muslims irrespective of their political affiliations or social and economic position.

Firuz Kazemzadeh. The struggle For Transcaucasia (1917 - 1921), New York Philosophical Library, 1951, p. 75

Grandmaster 04:39, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Template

Fedayee, please, discuss your changes and do not remove the picture that's currently on the page. It's more relevant to the essence of the event - massacre. And observe WP:NPOV in your edits in parallel vis-a-vis September Days, where you claim exactly the opposite. Such position seems to be reflect nationalism rather than contribution to an encyclopedia. Atabəy (talk) 15:24, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Azeris' like their propaganda to be thick and heavy, the thicker and heavier the better. Meowy 01:55, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Focus on subject, Meowy. Atabəy (talk) 02:03, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

HRW about casualties

Now we have in the article this text: In 1995, Human Rights Watch produced a report named "Communal Violence and Human Rights," in which it stated: "In March 1918, in an effort to seize Baku from local Muslim forces, Soviet Bolsheviks made a pact with the Armenian nationalist ARF. In an orgy of violence that followed, between 3,000 and 3,500 Muslims were massacred

The Human Rights Watch refers to the two sources about this number:

Altstadt, The Azerbaijani Turks, pp. 85-87
Suny, "The Revenge of the Past," p. 29.

Let's see the sources:

Altstadt: By Shaumian's estimate more than 3 000 were killed during two days.
Suny writes nothing about the number of victims.(At least I haven't found)

As you see there is a mere mistake in HRW article. Since the article is not an academic source specialised in history and is not peer-reviewed I suggest to remove the text.--Quantum666 (talk) 16:41, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Peter Symes

The article refers to Peter Symes' article "The Note Issues of Azerbaijan Part I – The Baku Issues" The article is published only at his own website so the source is self-published material. The author is a specialist in the world paper money but not in the history. According to this I suggest not to use the source especially to show number of casualties which is disputed. --Quantum666 (talk) 09:54, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Dashnaktsutyun

If an author (Suny as Atabay says) supports a version, it never means, that this is a main version per WP:WEIGHT and must be included in the lead. And I didnt find any text where this Suny says Dashnaks were involved directly, its your POV, he just says some Dashnaks helped Bolsheviks. A consensus is needed. Andranikpasha (talk) 06:12, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Andranikpasha, I am not sure why so much time is being wasted on proving whether ARF was involved, when every known source on March Days cites Dashnak participation in the ethnic warfare in Baku. Obviously, if ARF armed gangs participated in massacres of ethnic Azeris, and they did, their formal siding with Baku Soviet or approval of ARF decisionmakers is not relevant. But if you are insistent about Suny's quote, read the end of page 41 and beginning of page 42 with the link included: "in Baku, the political center was held by Russian Social Democrats (SDs) and Armenian nationalists, the Dashnaktsutiun (Armenian Revolutionary Federation) in particular. The Azerbaijanis identified Soviet power in 1917-18 with the Christians, and in March 1918, the city Soviet in Baku put down a revolt by Muslims with the help of Armenian nationalists." So as you can see, R.G.Suny defines Armenian nationalists, who he says participated in putting down the revolt, with Dashnaks. Hence is the connection. If you are doubtful, it would be rather surprising, but you can resolve your doubts by researching references. Otherwise, assertion from R.G.Suny, an ethnic Armenian author, seems to be sufficient of a proof that ARF militia were part of massacres, which would not be surprise to ordinary reader anyway, due to numerous sources and the radical nationalistic ideology of this party. Atabəy (talk) 07:03, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

As for me and historians, the radical nationalists are not Dashnaks, but Musavat gangs revolted against official authorities. Related to Suny, he says that "Armenian nationalists" (he didn't say ARF organization itself, rather it's some armed members in Baku, it wasn't party's official policy) helped (not equal to Bolsheviks-organizers) Bolsheviks in putting down the revolt. I dont see any mention about revolt in the lead, while most sources wrote about the events as clear revolt by Azeri radical nationalists. We cant misquote one part of the source and completely left another, so we need add the right term of putted down revolt to the lead. Andranikpasha (talk) 08:09, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

For you, of course they would be, but don't involve historians. The source clearly pinpoints to Dashnaks as stated by Atabey above. So, there is no reason to twist the subject. Tuscumbia (talk) 13:41, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Andranikpasha, if you claim that the reference is dubious, provide reference to prove otherwise. I have difficulty to believe that Professor R.G.Suny is a dubious reference on the history of Caucasus, at least you are not in position to make such judgment without references. Please, come up with those references proving that ARF/Dashnak gangs were not involved in 1918 March massacres in Baku before further reverting. Atabəy (talk) 05:14, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

This is 21th century and your behaviour with users backing you and aggressive manner of pov-pushing are not allowed here. We're in Wiki not in a market or in the street. People used to be civil here and discuss in a civil manner! Andranikpasha (talk) 11:38, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Do I need to remind you of Misplaced Pages:Civility? Tuscumbia (talk) 13:33, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

So did you read it? Andranikpasha (talk) 14:01, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

You had a doubt and received a proper explanation from another user. I represent not myself, but my opinion and it was reflected on on this page. You can keep doubting the addition all you want, but it doesn't mean it has to prevent the sourced addition of text. Thank you. Tuscumbia (talk) 14:13, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I had and I HAVE a doubt. When there is a discussion between A and B users, it means they are two sides who're trying to made a consensus on something. If you believe A or B are right, it's fine, but it never means the discussion ends as soon as a C user supports one of sides. I still have doubts and you don't want to discuss the matter, but aggressively deleting my tags. It's not a fighting, nor Atabay is so weak to call a 'boy' to back him. If you have opinion, discuss here, all other actions and aggressive reverts are against WP:CIVIL. Andranikpasha (talk) 15:36, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Andranikpasha, you are engaging in an irrelevant discussion, focusing on contributors, and violating WP:CIVIL, attempting to create edit conflicts where they really do not exist. I only asked you to kindly provide references proving that R.G.Suny reference is dubious. Again participation of Dashnak gangs in 1918 March massacres was never questioned by any scholar on this subject. Since you are not in a position to challenge expert scholars, unless proven otherwise by proof of qualifications, all I ask you is to provide references to your view. I guess this is more constructive than inserting tags that don't lead anywhere. Atabəy (talk) 16:16, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

You didnt answer my questions. What you're adding is a clear misquoting, your personal explanation of Suny. SOme armed people's from ARF helped Bolsheviks in putting down the revolt, it means there wasn't a conflict, but a putted down revolt by Muslim gangs. And your text about "a political power struggle between Bolsheviks and Armenian Revolutionary Federation" is an original research, no sources say ARF were in struggle for political power, historically they never were in political power, they just helped bolsheviks, who included ethnical Azeris, Georgians, etc. You have no sources on nonsense, you're adding, this is not supported by your source. Bolsheviks were the ruling political power in Baku in March 1918, there are hundreds of sources on this obvious fact (the last source also calls the events a suppressed revolt). Noone mentions ARF members as equal (not helping) side. Andranikpasha (talk) 16:53, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Andranikpasha, no one doubts that Bolsheviks were ruling power, which is why they are mentioned as perpetrators of massacre. After all, Stepan Shahumian, an ethnic Armenian, directly facilitated this mass slaughter of Azeris despite the warnings from his leader V.I.Lenin to keep calm under control. But the massacre was undoubtedly and indiscriminately executed by Dashnak militias. Here is another proof from Thomas De Waal 2010 publication, which I added to the article:

De Waal, Thomas (2010). The Caucasus: An Introduction. Oxford University Press. pp. 62. ISBN 0195399765. http://books.google.com/books?id=6X745rS5Ci8C&pg=PA62. "In the so called March Days of 1918, Baku descended into a mini-civil war, after the Bolsheviks declared war on Musavat Party and then stood by as Dashnak militias rampaged through the city, killing Azerbaijanis indiscriminately"

I encourage you to accept the fact affirmed by several scholars so that we can remove irrelevant tags and move on to other constructive contributions to this article. Atabəy (talk) 17:19, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Neutrality of the lead

Massacred vs killed, conflict vs suppressed uprising

The article's lead needs to be rewritten according to reliable sources:

"Muslims in Baku revolted in March 1918, but their uprising was suppressed by the city's Armenians". (World and Its Peoples:

The Middle East, Western Asia, and Northern Africa, by Marshall Cavendish, 2006, p. 786)

"The Baku Soviet took the lead in a counter-offensive, the clashes escalating steadily until March 31, when,"
"After crushing a Muslim revolt in the city, the Bolshevik-led government, with its small Red Guard, was forced to rely on Armenian troops led by Dashnak officers". (The revenge of the past: nationalism, revolution, and the collapse of the Soviet Union, by Ronald Grigor Suny, 1993, p. 42)
"in March 1918 Azerbaijanis revolted against the Baku Commune".(pro Azeri author Thomas de Waal, Black garden:

Armenia and Azerbaijan through peace and war, p. 100)

"The oil-rich city of Baku had emerged as a stronghold of Bolshevism shortly after the October Russian Revolution, and friction between the Bolsheviks and the pan-Turkic Musavat party sparked a brief civil war in March 1918." (The Armenia-Azerbaijan conflict: causes and implications - by Michael P. Croissant - 1998, p. 14)
"Soviet government established in Baku 1918 March: Bolshevik supporters resist nationals in Azerbaijan". (The Caucasian republics - by Margaret Kaeter - 2004, p. 147)
"Muslim revolt earlier in March" (A diplomatic history of the Caspian Sea: treaties, diaries, and other stories, by Guive Mirfendereski, 2001, p. 99)

(may be continued) Andranikpasha (talk) 17:20, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Again, no one doubts that Bolsheviks called it a revolt and were perpetrators of massacre. But the executors were ARF Dashnaks. Pay a closer attention to Thomas De Waal's exact wording: Dashnak militias rampaged through the city, killing Azerbaijanis indiscriminately

De Waal, Thomas (2010). The Caucasus: An Introduction. Oxford University Press. pp. 62. ISBN 0195399765. http://books.google.com/books?id=6X745rS5Ci8C&pg=PA62. "In the so called March Days of 1918, Baku descended into a mini-civil war, after the Bolsheviks declared war on Musavat Party and then stood by as Dashnak militias rampaged through the city, killing Azerbaijanis indiscriminately"

Buttino, Marco (1993). In a collapsing empire:underdevelopment, ethnic conflicts and nationalisms in the Soviet Union Volume 28. Feltrinelli Editor. pp. 176. ISBN 8807990482. http://books.google.com/books?id=t5HKjm6vs3YC&pg=PA176. ""Violence increased during the Civil War, with massacres of Azeri Turks - by the combined forced of Armenian Dashnaktsutiun party and the Bolsheviks""

Thanks. Atabəy (talk) 17:34, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

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