Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Elen of the Roads (talk | contribs) at 13:10, 17 December 2010 (→Result of appeal by Delicious carbuncle, section 2: OK thanks). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

• WP:AE

Click here to add a new enforcement request
For appeals: create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}
See also: Logged AE sanctions

Important informationShortcuts WP:AE WP:ARE Please use this page only to: request administrative action against editors violating a remedy (not merely a principle) or an injunction in an Arbitration Committee decision, or a contentious topic restriction imposed by an administrator, request contentious topic restrictions against previously alerted editors who engage in misconduct in a topic area designated as a contentious topic, request page restrictions (e.g. revert restrictions) on pages that are being disrupted in topic areas designated as contentious topics, or appeal arbitration enforcement actions (including contentious topic restrictions) to uninvolved administrators. For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions. To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}. Appeals and administrator modifications of contentious topics restrictions The Arbitration Committee procedures relating to modifications of contentious topic restrictions state the following: All contentious topic restrictions (and logged warnings) may be appealed. Only the restricted editor may appeal an editor restriction. Any editor may appeal a page restriction. The appeal process has three possible stages. An editor appealing a restriction may: ask the administrator who first made the contentious topic restrictions (the "enforcing administrator") to reconsider their original decision; request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN"); and submit a request for amendment ("ARCA"). If the editor is blocked, the appeal may be made by email. Appeals submitted at AE or AN must be submitted using the applicable template. A rough consensus of administrators at AE or editors at AN may specify a period of up to one year during which no appeals (other than an appeal to ARCA) may be submitted. Changing or revoking a contentious topic restriction An administrator may only modify or revoke a contentious topic restriction if a formal appeal is successful or if one of the following exceptions applies: The administrator who originally imposed the contentious topic restriction (the "enforcing administrator") affirmatively consents to the change, or is no longer an administrator; or The contentious topic restriction was imposed (or last renewed) more than a year ago and: the restriction was imposed by a single administrator, or the restriction was an indefinite block. A formal appeal is successful only if one of the following agrees with revoking or changing the contentious topic restriction: a clear consensus of uninvolved administrators at AE, a clear consensus of uninvolved editors at AN, a majority of the Arbitration Committee, acting through a motion at ARCA. Any administrator who revokes or changes a contentious topic restriction out of process (i.e. without the above conditions being met) may, at the discretion of the Arbitration Committee, be desysopped. Standard of review On community review Uninvolved administrators at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") and uninvolved editors at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN") should revoke or modify a contentious topic restriction on appeal if: the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process), the action was not reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption when first imposed, or the action is no longer reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption. On Arbitration Committee review Arbitrators hearing an appeal at a request for amendment ("ARCA") will generally overturn a contentious topic restriction only if: the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process), the action represents an unreasonable exercise of administrative enforcement discretion, or compelling circumstances warrant the full Committee's action. The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction. This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator. Appeals and administrator modifications of non-contentious topics sanctions The Arbitration Committee procedures relating to modifications and appeals state: Appeals by sanctioned editors Appeals may be made only by the editor under sanction and only for a currently active sanction. Requests for modification of page restrictions may be made by any editor. The process has three possible stages (see "Important notes" below). The editor may: ask the enforcing administrator to reconsider their original decision; request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators’ noticeboard ("AN"); and submit a request for amendment at the amendment requests page ("ARCA"). If the editor is blocked, the appeal may be made by email through Special:EmailUser/Arbitration Committee (or, if email access is revoked, to arbcom-enwikimedia.org). Modifications by administrators No administrator may modify or remove a sanction placed by another administrator without: the explicit prior affirmative consent of the enforcing administrator; or prior affirmative agreement for the modification at (a) AE or (b) AN or (c) ARCA (see "Important notes" below). Administrators modifying sanctions out of process may at the discretion of the committee be desysopped. Nothing in this section prevents an administrator from replacing an existing sanction issued by another administrator with a new sanction if fresh misconduct has taken place after the existing sanction was applied. Administrators are free to modify sanctions placed by former administrators – that is, editors who do not have the administrator permission enabled (due to a temporary or permanent relinquishment or desysop) – without regard to the requirements of this section. If an administrator modifies a sanction placed by a former administrator, the administrator who made the modification becomes the "enforcing administrator". If a former administrator regains the tools, the provisions of this section again apply to their unmodified enforcement actions. Important notes: For a request to succeed, either (i) the clear and substantial consensus of (a) uninvolved administrators at AE or (b) uninvolved editors at AN or (ii) a passing motion of arbitrators at ARCA is required. If consensus at AE or AN is unclear, the status quo prevails. While asking the enforcing administrator and seeking reviews at AN or AE are not mandatory prior to seeking a decision from the committee, once the committee has reviewed a request, further substantive review at any forum is barred. The sole exception is editors under an active sanction who may still request an easing or removal of the sanction on the grounds that said sanction is no longer needed, but such requests may only be made once every six months, or whatever longer period the committee may specify. These provisions apply only to contentious topic restrictions placed by administrators and to blocks placed by administrators to enforce arbitration case decisions. They do not apply to sanctions directly authorized by the committee, and enacted either by arbitrators or by arbitration clerks, or to special functionary blocks of whatever nature. All actions designated as arbitration enforcement actions, including those alleged to be out of process or against existing policy, must first be appealed following arbitration enforcement procedures to establish if such enforcement is inappropriate before the action may be reversed or formally discussed at another venue. Information for administrators processing requests Thank you for participating in this area. AE works best if there are a variety of admins bringing their expertise to each case. There is no expectation to comment on every case, and the Arbitration Committee (ArbCom) thanks all admins for whatever time they can give. A couple of reminders: Before commenting, please familiarise yourself with the referenced ArbCom case. Please also read all the evidence (including diffs) presented in the AE request. When a request widens to include editors beyond the initial request, these editors must be notified and the notifications recorded in the same way as for the initial editor against whom sanctions were requested. Where some part of the outcome is clear, a partial close may be implemented and noted as "Result concerning X". Enforcement measures in arbitration cases should be construed liberally to protect Misplaced Pages and keep it running efficiently. Some of the behaviour described in an enforcement request might not be restricted by ArbCom. However, it may violate other Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines; you may use administrative discretion to resolve it. More than one side in a dispute may have ArbCom conduct rulings applicable to them. Please ensure these are investigated. Closing a thread: Once an issue is resolved, enclose it between {{hat}} and {{hab}} tags. A bot should archive it in 7 days. Please consider referring the case to ARCA if the outcome is a recommendation to do so or the issue regards administrator conduct. You can use the templates {{uw-aeblock}} (for blocks) or {{AE sanction}} (for other contentious topic restrictions) to give notice of sanctions on user talk pages. Please log sanctions in the Arbitration enforcement log. Thanks again for helping. If you have any questions, please post on the talk page.

Wee Curry Monster

Benkta

Please clarify. Recent decision concerning me

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Captain Occam

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Dojarca

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found in this 2010 ArbCom motion. According to that motion, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user

Dojarca (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Dojarca (talk) 03:38, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Sanction being appealed

Dojarca is prohibited from commencing or participating in dispute resolution or enforcement processes (including arbitration enforcement) relating to user conduct within the area of conflict (as defined by WP:DIGWUREN#Discretionary sanctions) for a period of two months, save for processes concerning his or her own conduct. To avoid doubt, "commencing or participating in" includes doing so by proxy.

Administrator imposing the sanction

Mkativerata (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator

He watches this page, so possibly, no need to notify him.

Statement by Dojarca

The ArbCom remedy reads as follows:

Any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict (defined as articles which relate to Eastern Europe, broadly interpreted) if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process.

The following requirements for the remedy did not met:

- I did not repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process

That is what I did here and elsewhere in Misplaced Pages was in line with Misplaced Pages's policy and if even I made any mistakes somewhere, I ceased any incorrect behavior upon notification. A first notification was always sufficient. If I was somewhere involved in repeated and serious disruptive behavior, please point to such instances.

- I was not warned before applying the remedy.

Of course, I knew about that ArbCom case and the enacted sanctions because I participated in it. On the other hand, I was not warned about any related to this AE request incorrect behavior from my side. It is obvious that the warning requirement is essential to give a user possibility to cease any wrong behavior before the sanctions and only in the case the user ignores such warnings (i.e. "dispite" them) continues wrong conduct he shall be sanctioned.

It is evident also that the warning requirement allows the administrator to formalize what behavior he considers against the rules and what he requires from the user. Since I was not warned, I had no idea of whether I break the rules and how could I improve my doings.

Just the fact of my participation in the arbcom case does not allow any administrator to impose any sanction against me without preceding warning.

The sanction enacted by Mkativerata not only does not me allow to request for enforcement of ArbCom decisions about the case with which I am familiar and involved, but also prevents me from communicating with uncivil users in the course or normal process, including reporting such basic violations of the rules as 3RR and personal attacks, placing me in a dependence of whether it would be spotted by a random administrator. Henceforward anybode can insult me and I have no right to complain.

Statement by Mkativerata

Noting that I am aware of the appeal. I have no statement to make, feeling my (and other admins') comments in the original AE speak for themselves. I will probably not comment here unless (a) I'm asked a direct question by an uninvolved administrator; or (b) I feel I'm being misrepresented.--Mkativerata (talk) 04:06, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

@Ncmvocalist: I did not. I considered that Dojarca's involvement in the Offliner/Piotrus AE (and offer to act as Offliner's proxy in future AEs) made him sufficiently aware of the dangers of lodging battleground AEs. --Mkativerata (talk) 06:29, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

The diff is here. Offliner was on notice of DIGWUREN sanctions. I considered that sufficient warning. --Mkativerata (talk) 06:44, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I'd be interested to hear Dojarca's explanation for the socking - as Fut.Perf. alludes to, the editing pattern is a little unconventional. But of course that he/she was using multiple accounts to lodge AEs in recent weeks is grounds enough to act. We can't allow sockpuppeteers to infect topic areas like this. My impression from this appeal has only firmed my confidence in the original sanction: language such as my "right" to take someone to AE and other noticeboard reflects an attitude unconducive to productive involvement in disputes. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:15, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Dojarca

The diff provided is obviously not a diff for Mkativerata's warning, but a diff of my post. The fact that you put this diff here suggests that you thought I proxied for Offliner which is not the case. If I proxied for Offliner I would say so or at least say that Offliner provided the diffs, but I evaluated the significance of the evidence myself or something similar.

Regarding that you consider enforcing ArbCom rulings a battleground behavior. If enforcing ArbCom decision is a battleground, then why the decision itself is not battleground? Maybe we should accuse ArbCom in battleground behavior against the respected EEML group?

What can you say about the Offliner's request regarding Martintg? Was it also a "battleground AE"? Which further AE against EEML will be considered battleground? Should all editors who posted here now be considered "warned" and blame themselves if punished following an AE against EEML? Dojarca (talk) 08:07, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement (not really more like a puzzlement) by Volunteer Marek

Ummmm.... why is that next to last statement , using a first person singular, as in referring to Dojarca, signed by User:MathFacts? Am I missing something? Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:09, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Looks like naughtiness. I've blocked and launched an SPI at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Dojarca to determine the nature of the puppetry more exactly. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:30, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

As much as an SPI appears to be proper (no comment on the length of the block) here, I strongly object to Deacon using his administrative tools in this matter. He simply is too involved, as found on this board before and as evidenced by his frequent participation in EE-topics related dispute resolution (I'm actually quite amazed that he can state "(I) don't consider myself involved" with a straight face). There's plenty of truly uninvolved admins who are perfectly capable of acting here and in EE-topic related matters in general. Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:31, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I think he must be unblocked and have an opportunity to respond at this page and in sockpuppet investigation. Biophys (talk) 16:51, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

@Timotheus Canens - it might be noteworthy that the MathFacts account was used as recently as two weeks ago to file another spurious AE request against User:Lvivske: . Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:50, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I guess this explain why during EEML ArbCom case evil mailing list members were begging everybody involved to be checkusered, but the glorious and indisputably honest "content opponents" flatly refused en masse. Dojarca, Loosemark, Altenmann... I am pretty sure there are more socks and at least one (but probably two) group accounts among the "content opponents". --Sander Säde 09:16, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Request for clarification from Petri and others

Wait! So I can create various alternate accounts (calling them "sockpuppets" would be a personal attack!!!) for my various activities here on Misplaced Pages and that's all alright? I can have one account for my Poland related topics, one for my Economics related topics (maybe a separate one for Economics of Poland topics), one for Mexican history topics, one for commenting over at AN/I, one for bringing articles to AfD I don't like, one for voting in ArbCom elections, one for reverting User:Bob (I don't think there really is a User:Bob, but if there is, no offense, Bob), and one for filing spurious requests at Arbitration/Requests/Enforcements? That's all legitimate?

Crap! Why didn't anyone tell me? I'll get crackin'...

Of course I'm joking. Seriously. Anyone stop and ask "what the hey did Dojarca need that second account for except for the purposes of disruptive battleground behavior"? The apparent intention of some folks here to fall over themselves in trying to come up with some kind of excuse for the guy - especially since in other cases they were quite happy to swing the ban hammer swiftly and heavily, is a bit worrisome. And that's not even addressing Deacon's light weight, "damage control" two week block after he supported Dojarca. Sometimes AE makes my head spin. Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:47, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

@Petri: For editing mathematics related articles without harassment form members of the EEML group. I believe Dojarca was high up in the "enemies list". - that's complete nonsense on so many levels:

• He did not just use the account for mathematics related articles. He used it to file battleground AE requests.
• He was never harassed by anyone from EEML. If you gonna allege harassment please provide evidence. Otherwise this is just a personal attack.
• In fact, in light of first point, the situation's quite reverse - he used the account to harass various editors via spurious requests rather than vice versa.
• Dojarca wasn't on any "enemy list" because there wasn't one. In fact I don't think he was ever even mentioned on the list. Don't make stuff up. Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:24, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
• ... unless he's got some other account that you're referring to that we're unaware of, that may have been mentioned on the list. If so, time to fess it up. Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:30, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Responses by Peri Krohn

Response to Fut.Perf.

Please have a closer look!

In fact, the evidence shows that Dojarca has done exactly the right thing in using his two accounts. Dojarca (talk · contribs) was involved in controversial political topics which ultimately resulted in the WP:EEML arbcom case. Dojarca withdrew from editing on 17 February 2010 and his few edits after that have been directly linked to the EEML case. These include opening Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Denial of the Holodomor and making an EEML related argument, reverting a move of Occupation of the Baltic republics by Nazi Germany, and participating in Talk:Communist terrorism. When commenting on AE cases relating to the EEML case he has always logged in as Dojarca.

MathFacts (talk · contribs) started editing in March 2009. His early edits consist exclusively of non-controversial topics like Indefinite sum. I cannot find any edits in MathFacts edit history to articles that have been in dispute in the DIGWUREN or EEML cases. In November this year he made an edit to Roman Shukhevych (history), that was twice reverted by Lvivske and Galassi, prompting MathFacts to start an AE request on this notice board. I cannot see any overlap here, Even though the Ukraine is in Eastern Europe, I do not think it has ever been in the scope of interest of Dojarca or the EEML group.

• MathFacts/Dojarca had full right to keep his political and maths related edits separate.
• MathFacts has not turned to political EE topics after Dojarca withdrew.
• When returning to old EEML disputes it was exactly in line with policy for Dojarca to log in with his old account.

If someone disagrees with me, please point out a single edit that MathFacts/Dojarca did with the wrong account. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 20:00, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

P.S. – As to the question of whether it is appropriate to comment on the EEML case after withdrawing from the disputes. The EEML topic bans are only temporary and will soon expire. It is quite possible that we will again see the same participants in the same disputes. In the meanwhile I see a trend on the anti-EEML side: these editors too have withdrawn from the topic area – and for the most part, from following the edits of EEML members. This situation has only been possible because of the trust that the topic bans are effective. Inability to enforce the topic bans will force the anti-EEML side to actively engage in the topics and scrutinize EEML edits. I would find such an outcome most unwanted. -- Petri Krohn (talk)

Response to T. Canens

The policy the explicitly allows MathFacts to use Dojarca as an alternate account is Misplaced Pages:Sock puppetry#Legitimate uses. The example presented for privacy:

Privacy: A person editing an article which is highly controversial within his/her family, social or professional circle, and whose Misplaced Pages identity is known within that circle, or traceable to their real-world identity, may wish to use an alternative account to avoid real-world consequences from their editing or other Misplaced Pages actions in that area.

Dojarca is now a single purpose account editing only in an extremely narrow topic area of Baltic occupation theories and related process pages. The topic area is highly controversial. Several Eastern European countries have passed laws which criminalize presenting some points-of-view on the topic area. In addition to prison terms people active in the topic area may face travel bans and other harassment from security services and law enforcement officials. In fact, I know of cases, both real and alleged, where Misplaced Pages editors have been targeted by such actions. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 23:38, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Re 2

Yes, MathFacts filed an AE request. I cannot see any connection between that dispute and the edits of the Dojarca account. Also I do not accept your argument about "procject space". "Editing project space" in WP:ILLEGIT applies to "misleading, deceiving, disrupting, or undermining consensus." There is no case for misleading or deceiving. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 04:03, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Response to Volunteer Marek

Re: "Dojarca need that second account for?" For editing mathematics related articles without harassment form members of the EEML group. I believe Dojarca was high up in the "enemies list". -- Petri Krohn (talk) 03:49, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Questions by uninvolved Ncmvocalist

Mkativerata,

• when and where (if anywhere) did you warn Dojarca to cease making reports of this nature to AE? Ncmvocalist (talk) 06:24, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Could you provide a diff for that offer? Also, when and where (if anywhere) did you warn Offliner to cease making reports of this nature to AE? I appreciate the latter of my questions is concerning a separate action and is not going to be directly covered by this appeal, however, there is a relationship which is likely to influence the outcome of this particular appeal in one way (while affecting the outcome of the potential appeal of that action in another way). Ncmvocalist (talk) 06:37, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Dojarca

• Other than statements made to date, answers to my questions, and the AE, I've also looked at the clarification thread that was made on this AE noticeboard and the comments made at the AE which resulted in Offliner being restricted (I've also commented on that).
• In regards to Dojarca's restriction, which is why we are here, I am inclined to oppose this particular appeal at this time. Dojarca was already aware of the high likelihood that a similar restriction would be applied like with Offliner, but pushed ahead with making the report of a relatively stale violation. Though I don't believe Dojarca is proxying on Offliner's behalf, I was concerned with the comment he made here where he offered to proxy, as well as (more particularly) the other comments he made in the clarification thread above. I'm convinced that it is not beneficial for Dojarca to be reporting further violations of these decisions, unless he/she is directly affected (if someone reports Dojarca for something, Dojarca should be able to participate in the thread, and if Dojarca reports someone, it should be because that someone is, for example, allegedly being uncivil to Dojarca rather than to someone else).
• That said, Deacon's concerns are justified and I don't believe it is beneficial to appear to be muzzling users. The decision is going to expire soon, but rather than appearing to ignore the concerns, administrators at AE (and even current arbitrators) should be especially mindful of the fact that there is a dissatisfaction over the lenient approach in enforcing direct violations of the relevant decision. If the edits/violations are in themselves helpful, then normally, that may be part of the grounds to have the restriction removed by AC. But this was not a normal case of disruption so it won't be; Community trust was breached after a concerted effort was made (improper external coordination) to thwart the very goals of this project, be it intentionally or otherwise (depending on the participant). Accordingly, trust needs to be regained by full compliance, not selective compliance. Therefore, in this case, rewarding users who toe the line of their restriction(s) with the outcome they were wanting is not advisable, and plain wrong.
• In regards to Offliner's restriction, should an appeal be made, I would be inclined to support it. Among the comments that were critical of Offliner's behavior, a more useful warning was provided in the thread itself by a former arbitrator, and in that respect, a formal restriction was unnecessary given that Offliner appeared willing to comply with the warning (and I wasn't the only user who seemed to be satisfied with that assurance). Dojarca should have taken the hint; if that had happened, no restriction would have been imposed and we wouldn't be here. Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:27, 14 December 2010 (UTC)changed from incline to direct oppose. 01:33, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

• Dojarca was already aware of the high likelihood that a similar restriction would be applied like with Offliner - this could be true only if to admit that I should know that any AE request against EEML member would lead to a restriction upon me. Because any requests against EEML members are in certain sense 'similar' to those of Offliner. That said any user now shell know about "high likelihood" of getting punished for any request against EEML (you warned!). Anyway I received no warning as required and as such I only could speculate whether such and such report would be considered inappropriate (if I received a warning I could crarify the matter with the admin). Of course I did not suppose that my request will be considered inappropriate. I thought Offliner was restricted just because he did too many requests and made callous the eyes of the admins here, and not because ot the substance of his request (the request seemed fully legitimate for me). That was also the reason why I suggested be proxy: I thought, admins would not so angry if another person makes the same request than Offliner who became boring.--Dojarca (talk) 10:02, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

  Dojarca should have taken the hint; if that had happened, no restriction would have been imposed - yes, and the hint was "do not report anything against EEML, we do not want to hear it". In that case yes, there would be no restriction. But also it means an indulgency for any actions by EEML members.--Dojarca (talk) 10:09, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

• You still don't understand that the main problem with your AE request was not that it was against an EEML user (whatever that is), but against the same user who was considered just 2 days ago, and over the edits made prior to a recent warning to him. It is for this reason that admins consider this request to be inappropriate. Offliner's case should have served as a warning to those who use AE inappropriately. - BorisG (talk) 10:18, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

  In that case the Offliner's case could not serve as warning because his request was common and usual. What warning can bring punishment for a common and usual request? Only that not to make any requests at all. If I was punished for another reason than Offliner (i.e. for old diffs), than there was obviously no warning for not making such requests. Moreover, what repeated or serious violation is posting a request with odler diffs?--Dojarca (talk) 10:45, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't have enough experience to judge if it was serious or not (certainly not repeated). However I do agree that you did not receive proper warning. But in any case, your sanction is pretty mild, you have no editing restriction, only barred from AE and such. Maybe two months without AE will be useful for you so that you can concentrate on content creation. It is like telling me at work that I am barred from attedning meetings for 2 months. That would be a blessing :). Cheers. - BorisG (talk) 11:35, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

No. The problem is that I am not barred only from AE but as clarified Mkativerata, from seeking any administrator intervention, including 3RR, vandalism and so on. This is certainly different. In fact I made right-less here for two months.--MathFacts (talk) 11:50, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I can hardly see this as a problem. I have been editing here on and off for years, and not once I saw a need to do any of that. - BorisG (talk) 13:51, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

• As noted above, I oppose allowing the appeal at this time.
• In regards to the sockpuppetry block, an unblock is unnecessary (in my opinion) to allow this appeal to reach its natural conclusion; the outcome of which I don't believe is the one that Dojarca/MathFile desires. The user can have their comments transcluded here if they wish. However, as the user is blocked, the thread has been reformatted to ensure that involved users and uninvolved users are in their own sections for the most part (excepting the above conversation between the appealing user and BorisG).
• In regards to appealing the results from the SPI, this is obviously not the appeal venue...but I'd advise the relevant admin to take care.
• An involved user has raised a policy provided exception; responding AE admins are advised to look into it before further considering any other remedies beyond those imposed at this time. In particular, a single isolated breach (which was obvious, though probably genuinely unintentional) may not be sufficient to warrant further action than what has already been taken via SPI. If further measures are needed, such action needs to be based on solid evidence in the form of specific diffs or other breaches - not a tool which provides limited assistance about where to locate some relevant diffs. It is also worth considering whether further enforcement in this same thread will simply but unnecessarily reopen the grounds for another appeal, when that action can be taken separately in another AE thread, if necessary. Ncmvocalist (talk) 01:33, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

• • Volunteer Marek, could you please reformulate your request to remove the general battleground tone? Ncmvocalist (talk) 02:04, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
  • I don't think the submitted exceptions can reasonably be invoked in this case; there is an obvious overlap between pages/topics and there is a lack of consistency in the way these overlaps occur. I'd support a topic ban from the area of conflict. That said, I'm not sure it is sufficient, and I think it should be handled in a separate thread (not even at AE, but back to a general admin noticeboard as other topics are involved). Ncmvocalist (talk) 10:40, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Result of the appeal by Dojarca

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

The AE request that prompted this sanction was clearly disruptive. A request was brought against Piotrus by Offliner and resulted in a warning to Piotrus to take a more conservative approach to his topic ban and a restriction for Offliner. Two days later, Dojarca brings a near-identical AE request, only citing even older diffs than Offliner's. I don't see how that could be anything other than disruptive battleground behaviour, so I'm inclined to oppose this appeal. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:33, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

•  Administrator note I've blocked Dojarca for two weeks because of socking; see Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Dojarca. Anyone who wishes to unblock him for the purposes of this appeal should feel free to do so. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 17:37, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Unblock is quite unnecessary given MuZemike's  Confirmed finding. Given this, I'm inclined to impose a lengthy topic ban, which would moot the present appeal. Comments are welcome. T. Canens (talk) 18:45, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
    • Just to make sure we're being fair: is there a possibility the two accounts were meant to be legitimate topic-separated accounts under the provisions of WP:SOCK, and the edit on this page was just a one-off technical mistake about being accidentally logged in with the wrong account? At first sight, I don't see recent overlap of edits on contentious topics, and the cases where both accounts have edited the same articles appear to be mostly separated by large time intervals. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:52, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
      • Ah, strike that. On a second look, both accounts were systematically active here on this page in various political threads relatively recently, which certainly does cross the line into forbidden puppetry. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:54, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

A two-week block is generous if you ask me, but, absent a lengthening of the block, I'd support a nice long topic ban. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:11, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

@Mkativerata

Well even if the sock was being used legitimately, that went out of the window, using an undisclosed alternate account to edit AE is inevitably going to give the impression of purporting to be another editor, even if that wasn't the intent. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:32, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Undisclosed alternate accounts may not edit project space. 'nuff said. T. Canens (talk) 22:12, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

@Petri Krohn: that example is quite clear - "A person editing an article". Some potentially legitimate edits do not excuse clearly illegitmate uses. Undisclosed alternate accounts may not edit project space, which WP:AE is a part of, period. No exceptions. Whether that account is also sometimes used in a permitted manner is irrelevant, just as no one may votestack in an AfD or in a talk page discussion, even if they are using an account supposedly created for privacy reasons. T. Canens (talk) 01:09, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Sorry to comment out of place, but that single edit above was clearly unintentional, and did not pretend to be a different editor. - BorisG (talk) 01:29, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

What about and the bunch of preceding edits? T. Canens (talk) 01:47, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Now that's wikilawyering to the extreme. For one, the general does not prevail over the specific. If they want to use that account to edit only math articles, fine, but it has (1) edited in EE-related areas, including such articles and pages as Transport in the Soviet Union, Nazi crimes against Soviet POWs, Talk:Mikhail Kalinin, Russian National Unity and Moscow which is entirely unrelated to math, and (2) been used to make an inactionable DIGWUREN AE request. Not only is it a project space ban violation, but it also violates WP:SCRUTINY, since it dissociates the user from the history. That may well have been an aggravating factor when the sanctions in this case were imposed, had we known it at that time. There is plainly and simply nothing legitimate about this account. T. Canens (talk) 04:58, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

This has been open long enough. Long term socking is usually treated quite harshly, and I have to admit that I was a little surprised that the block was not for longer. Regardless, under the authority of WP:DIGWUREN#Discretionary sanctions, Dojarca (talk · contribs) is banned from all articles, discussions, and other content related to Eastern Europe, broadly construed, for one year. This ban renders the present appeal moot, so it should be closed now. Dojarca is free to appeal this ban when their block expires. T. Canens (talk) 20:42, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Delicious carbuncle

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found in this 2010 ArbCom motion. According to that motion, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user

Delicious carbuncle (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Delicious carbuncle (talk) 05:56, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Sanction being appealed

"n indefinite topic-ban for all Scientology-related edits on User:Delicious carbuncle, including but not limited to an interaction ban against bringing forward any further Sc.-related complaints against User:Cirt in any forum", imposed at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Delicious_carbuncle. Also discussed at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Inappropriate_discretionary sanction_at AE? and Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Potential WP:CANVASSING by User:Cirt.

Administrator imposing the sanction

Future Perfect at Sunrise (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator

Statement by Delicious carbuncle

Let me first set the record straight on a few points which seem to have been misunderstood:

• Status of Jamie Sorrentini as a Scientologist

There appears to be some confusion about whether or not Jamie Sorrentini is or is not a Scientologist. Since off-wiki postings have been brought into this, it is odd that they were not read and understood. I believe this posting by Tizano Lugli (Sorrentini's husband) says that they are still Scientologists. Much of that posting is written in incomprehensible jargon, but that is my sincere belief. At the time I didn't understand that one could be a Scientologist and not be part of the Church of Scientology, but I have since been informed that this situation is not unique.

• www.truthaboutscientology.com as a reliable source

When Cirt first reverted my addition to Sorrentini's bio, their edit summary was "rmv source that fails WP:RS in a WP:BLP page". Given my views on Cirt's editing of CoS-related articles, I was reluctant to take that assertion at face value. Discussion of sources usually happens at WP:RSN, so I had no objection to Cirt starting a discussion there. What I objected to was the removal of the source from Sorrentini's bio -- and only Sorrentini's bio -- while that discussion was still in progress. (The removal of the source from articles occurred after I had already indicated on the article's talk page my acceptance for my edits to be reverted, but that I felt it was inappropriate for Cirt to do so.)

Immediately after starting the discussion at RSN, Cirt posted links to it in 3 other noticeboards (, , & ). While I am not accusing Cirt of canvassing in this instance, it seems reasonable to assume that this would draw editors whose interests relate to religion rather than sourcing. There is now consensus about the use of this source and I am happy to go along with that consensus. In retrospect, I should not have re-added the information and I understand why it is being labelled as "pointy".

• BLP violations on Sorrentini's bio

HJ Mitchell refers to my addition of the source as "an egregious violation of BLP". How so? The source was being used in other BLPs at the time I added it to Sorrentini's bio. There was no consensus against using the source. Although Cirt more than once made the claim that there was consensus against using this source, that is simply not true. When asked to produce a link to this consensus, Cirt linked to a discussion from 2007 which was inconclusive and in which they, then editing as User:Smee, expressed support for using the source.

I'm not sure how I was supposed to know in advance of a discussion at RSN (let alone a consensus being reached), that I should not be using a source already used in other BLPs (and in fact added to some of those BLPs by the very person who was objecting to its use on a biography that they created).

• My involvement with Scientology

I have no involvement with Scientology. This isn't about Scientology, it is about the even application of our policies and guidelines. Anyone who believes that anything I have written on-wiki or off-wiki shows a pro-Scientology viewpoint is simply mistaken.

I wish to appeal these sanctions on the following grounds:

• In imposing this sanction, Future Perfect states that I "knew" that Sorrentini was not a Scientologist and so my edits to her BLP were "a deliberate BLP violation". I do not know this and I believe that the opposite is true.
• Future Perfect further states "D.c.'s professions that he allegedly was not aware about any dispute about her membership don't sound plausible". I say in that diff "No one has disputed that Sorrentini is a Scientologist". To be clear, what I was saying was that there was no dispute about the facts, only the sourcing of those facts, hence I didn't see the urgency in removing the information. At that time no one had disputed the assertion. If Cirt has expressed an opinion on the matter, I have not yet seen it.
• Cirt canvassed admins in an attempt to have me blocked. When that didn't work, they canvassed admins to direct them to the Arbitration Enforcement request. Future Perfect was one of those canvassed.
• Future Perfect commented in the ANI thread that precipitated this request. Their support of Cirt was quite apparent at that time. I believe it was inappropriate for them to have imposed sanctions.
• Aside from Jamie Sorrentini, I am not aware of having edited any CoS-related articles. Although I am accusing Cirt of an anti-Scientology bias, I have no position on Scientology-related articles other than in relation to our policies and guidelines. While I have no objection to Cirt filing an RFC/U about my allegations -- in fact, I would welcome it -- my part in this should not fall under ARBSCI and I feel this is simply another attempt on Cirt's part to prevent me from expressing what have proven to be valid concerns judging from the edits made thus far to the articles I have singled out.

Thank you for your time. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 05:56, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Reply to Future Perfect at Sunrise: - I really do not understand your statement. As I have stated above, I believe Sorrentini to be a Scientologist based on the words of her husband. I believed that when I identified her as such in her bio. The information from her husband was in the off-wiki discussion you linked to in the original AE request. I am not sure why you are confused about this.

Yes, I believe Cirt created the article because Sorrentini and her husband have split from the Church of Scientology. Further, I believe that Cirt's objection to the sourcing was based on a desire to exclude information about Sorrentini's former connection to the CoS. As I have shown in the ANI thread, Cirt has added that source to several articles. As I have also shown in the ANI thread, Cirt failed to remove the source from several CoS-related articles that they had edited in the last few months. When did Cirt decide it was not a reliable source, and why did they make no effort to remove it from BLPs until I added it to Sorrentini's bio?

Why would I have any knowledge of prior discussions about the reliability of the source? I have not participated in them. I have not edited Scientology articles. I am fresh to the topic area. Which discussion would tell me that the source was not reliable? Cirt could not provide one to back their claim that there was consensus against using it. Not only is it impossible for me to prove my ignorance, there isn't even a consensus of which I can be ignorant. Your accusation is simply nonsense.

As for "this particular combination of a Misplaced Pages hounding campaign with the BLP violations being used as tools in this campaign that makes his behaviour so particularly problematic", I do not consider a bluntly frank ANI thread to be "hounding", but I make no apologies for the former - I am out to expose Cirt as the anti-Scientology POV-pusher that I believe them to be. Their actions are harmful to Misplaced Pages and the time has come for them to stop. Which BLP violations are you referencing here? I have made none in this situation, but I have pointed out many made by Cirt.

You clearly do not have a grasp on the facts of the matter. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 08:23, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Future Perfect, it is quite evident from your replies that you have chosen to take Cirt at their word, but to dismiss anything I say as questionable. Your bias likely springs from the fact that I am "attacking" a fellow admin.

You are correct that the citation I added to Sorrentini's bio identified her as a member of the CoS. At the time I was not aware that one could be a "Scientologist" outside of the CoS, but I had read Tizano Lugli's piece declaring them to be "Scientologists". My understanding, therefore, was that they had reconsidered their split from the CoS. I now know this not to be the case. My good-faith belief at that time was that she was a member of the CoS. My good-faith belief now is that she is a Scientologist (but not associated with the CoS, except as a critic). I have tried to make the present situation clear, since I suspect I am not the only one who did not know that there were independent Scientologists.

Keeping up with Cirt's edits would require at least two people. I am only one person and I have better things to do. Here's my method:

• Look at a list of articles created by Cirt.
• If the article is about Scientology, there is likely a BLP violation or two that needs fixing.
• Look at the history,
• If Cirt has edited the article, did they neglect to remove those BLP violations?
• Did Cirt (or Smee) add the BLP violations?
• Done. Next article.

You should try it. It could be interesting for you. Alternately, you could pick anything involving a well-known Scientologist and see what edits Cirt has made. Take Knight and Day. Start here. Now tell me there's no problem here. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 09:19, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Reply to DocJames: You seem to be saying that you have concerns about things that were published off-wiki about Cirt - this is a discussion about enforcement of ARBSCI sanctions. Are you in the right room? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 08:43, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

DocJames, you state that "A ban of Cirt was exactly what the Misplaced Pages Review it seems was hoping to accomplish with these games", as if I am representing Misplaced Pages Review in some capacity and as if a forum with hundreds of members holds one opinion about this (or anything). It appears that your opinions expressed here have nothing to do with the matter at hand, but are based on a dislike of that forum. When I posted a list of anti-CoS Wikinews articles created by Cirt in the original ANI thread, it was collapsed by one of their supporters because it dealt with off-wiki edits even though it is a sister project. I find it odd that so much attention is being given here to a particular forum which is independent of Misplaced Pages and functions under its own set of rules and guidelines. Attempts to impose Misplaced Pages's rules on off-wiki sites are misguided and unproductive but some people do not seem to be able to resist their inclination to try. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 20:51, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

DocJames, you keep harping on about Misplaced Pages Review. Should all Misplaced Pages editors who have contributed to that forum declare themselves to be involved and recuse themselves from this discussion? Do you have an account there? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 23:04, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes all editors who have been discussing Cirt over at WP REVIEW and calling for action are involved. You can find my edits under my user name. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:19, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Reply to Jehochman: Jehochman, I have already agreed at RSN that the source is unreliable and it should go without saying that I will not use it again. I would not have chosen to use it had it not already been in use at other BLPs. In fact, I cut and pasted most of the citation from where it was used at that time in the BLP of Alexandra Powers to save myself some typing. You have perhaps missed an important detail in all of this. www.truthaboutscientology.com is not a CoS website. In fact, it is the website of someone who is a critic of Scientology (and also runs a site called Scientology Lies). The information contained in the site is drawn from CoS publications.

This is an important point so I will try my best to make it clear to those willing to listen. Jehochman says "using a Scientology website to establish that somebody is a follower of Scientology is highly dubious". In actual fact, the use of CoS sources to establish that someone is a Scientologist seems to be common. I believe in some cases those sources are websites with testimonials from the individual, but often the sources are publications which are not available online. It is not clear to me if CoS publications are reliable sources or not since I have no familiarity with them. Cirt's POV-pushing is really just the tip of the iceberg with regard to CoS-related BLP issues, but nothing will likely change while they are free to edit CoS articles.

Incidentally, you appear to have been one of the editors to add allegations of spamming to Speedyclick.com, one of the CoS-related (or formerly CoS-related) articles discussed at ANI. That section has been removed since the Spamhaus links are no longer functional. I didn't get a chance to ask you before my topic ban, but if you recall the circumstances of the Spamhaus records, perhaps you could reinstate that section with other sources? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 17:18, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Jehochman, Cirt has had plenty of opportunity to reply to my charges, first at the ANI thread, then at the AE, and now at this appeal. I am quite prepared to file a request for sanctions against Cirt here if the community deems that appropriate, but I do not think that should be necessary given the amount of evidence I have already presented. My experiences with you have shown that you present yourself as a polite voice of reason and suggest that we all calmly let the current situation dissipate and then address the issues at other venues, all the while making it clear that you are willing to block editors who do not go along with your polite and reasonable suggestions. I have yet to see any case where the root cause has been addressed after the immediate dispute is put aside, usually with measures in place to ensure that the participants cannot do so themselves. I have no faith that Cirt will be sanctioned if they are not sanctioned in this current proceeding and I am unable to bring any action due to my own sanctions. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 22:59, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Questions regarding sanctions: I am concerned that these sanctions will prevent me from addressing BLP issues that I identified while looking at CoS-related articles over this past few days. GraemeL has already threatened to block me for bringing those BLP problems to the BLP noticeboard, so I would like to be clear on which activities are proscribed by these sanctions. Can I raise issues at BLPN? Can I edit articles created or edited by Cirt but unrelated to Scientology? Can I edit articles which were formerly associated with Scientology but have been removed from that category? For example, I was planning to nominate Alexandra Powers for deletion. Can I request ARBSCI enforcement based on Cirt's activities or must someone do that? It seems unlikely that anyone else will be willing to take that on. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 21:16, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Reply to Cirt's offer:

Cirt, while I can appreciate Jehochman's suggestions and your show of goodwill in extending this offer, I must decline it for the following reasons:

• My concerns are related to BLP and POV issues, not Scientology. While working on an article about a book by CoS founder L Ron Hubbard may improve our working relationship, I do not think it is relevant to the issues I have raised. Perhaps we could work together on something completely unrelated to Scientology when this is resolved.
• I have presented evidence at ANI of a long-term pattern of POV-pushing and anti-Scientology activities because it is my sincere belief that you hold a bias that prevents you from fairly applying our policies and guidelines. I do no think it is appropriate or helpful to reframe this as a personal dispute between two editors which can be solved through discussion on your talk page.
• Having publicly raised my concerns, I believe it would be unfair to you if you did not have an opportunity to publicly rebut them. Your comments thus far at WP:ANI, WP:BLPN, and WP:AE appear to be attempts to limit discussion of the underlying issues rather than addressing them.
• You have stated that your reason for canvassing admins to impose sanctions on me at the arbitration request you started was due to your frustration over critical statements made by another editor. I cannot understand this statement to mean anything other than that you were deliberately attempting to limit discussion which was critical of your actions. I think this is both grossly inappropriate for an admin and indicative of your unwillingness to directly address valid concerns.
• Even in the article you use as an example of your successful collaboration with other editors on CoS-related articles, you are merely demonstrating your lack of perspective. On Michael Doven, a good-faith edit attempt to separate the subject's professional career from their involvement with the CoS was made by another editor after I raised it at BLPN. You reverted it. Although some of the fluff has been removed, the article is still larded with a truly ridiculous number of gratuitous references to Scientology and Scientologists (including a reference in the lede to "the younger sister of musician Beck"). The reader is given the impression that Doven's success is inextricably linked to Scientology. This BLP should serve as an example of why I feel that I must file a request for arbitration enforcement.

I regret having to rebuff your outreach and I hope you understand this is not personally motivated. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 19:59, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Future Perfect at Sunrise

I stand by my assessment expressed here . D.c. was, at the very least, insincere when he was claiming there was no dispute about that person being a Sc. member, because his whole motivation in even noticing that article was evidently because he felt Cirt had only written it because the subject had broken with Sc. Under these circumstances, his professions of innocence (begin "fresh to this" and not being aware of prior debates etc.) ring hollow: he deliberately fabricated this incident in order to gain an opportunity of exposing Cirt. It is this particular combination of a Misplaced Pages hounding campaign with the BLP violations being used as tools in this campaign that makes his behaviour so particularly problematic and which, in my view, makes a long-term sanction necessary.

As to my being "involved": I'm not. I gave an administrative comment in the previous ANI thread, warning D.c. that I found his method of accusations problematic and that it made him liable to sanctions. Last time I looked, we are supposed to warn users before sanctioning them, right? – As for Cirt's posting on my page, as I said before, I didn't even read it, and if I had, it would naturally have made me more prejudiced against Cirt than against D.c. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:26, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Further to D.c.'s defense above: D.c. now entangles himself in self-contradictions. He claims he had reason to believe in good faith that J.S. still was a scientologist, despite the 2010 reports that she had left – but he was quoting a source from before the time she reportedly split, which under these circumstances he had to know was evidently irrelevant. He is also now making that distinction between being a CoS member and being a scientologist – but in his edits to the article he was unambiguously claiming CoS membership . As for being or not being aware of the backstory about the preceding discussions regarding the reliability of that website, D.c. had evidently spent a lot of time following Cirt's editing, over several months. He was able, within a day of the time the J.S. conflict was created, to cite numbers of instances where Cirt had been dealing with that source, even with articles where the link no longer was in the article (and would therefore not be findable through the external-links tool). The only way D.c. could have had of knowing about these cases was if he had systematically searched through all of Cirt's contributions. I simply don't believe he did all of that after deciding to spark off the D.J. kerfluffle, and I also don't believe he could collect all the instances where Cirt added or failed to remove that link, without becoming aware of the surrounding discussions. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:47, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Cirt

Please see the initial AE report I had made about Deliciuos carbuncle - the evidence of that user's actions is all there. I admit that I was wrong to post in the manner in which I did about the user to multiple user talk pages. That was inappropriate, and it stemmed from my frustration over ongoing and repeated WP:WIKIHOUNDING against me by Jayen466 (talk · contribs), which has been a quite disturbing pattern for over three years now. I let Jayen466 (talk · contribs)'s WP:WIKIHOUNDING get the better of me, and I became frustrated and acted inappropriately. But the evidence I originally presented about Delicious carbuncle (talk · contribs) still stands as valid. -- Cirt (talk) 06:52, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

• Comment: In a discussion between Jehochman and Delicious carbuncle at User talk:Jehochman, Jehochman suggested that Delicious carbuncle and I should both try to move forward collaboratively together. Jehochman recommended jointly working on a quality improvement project - striving to bring an article's quality up to being ready for WP:GAC or even maybe WP:FAC. I have suggested this recommendation from Jehochman to Delicious carbuncle, in a post to User talk:Delicious carbuncle. I have recommended a quality improvement project on the book Slaves of Sleep, a book well-regarded that received positive reception about the writing of its author Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard; the book is even considered a science fiction "classic". Jehochman suggested including Jayen466 as well in this quality improvement effort. I would very much like to work with Jayen466 and Delicious carbuncle together collaboratively to improve the quality of the Misplaced Pages article on this book which is well-regarded in literary circles. It would be wonderful for the three of us and any other editors interested to try to refocus our efforts on improving the quality of an article within the topic, and making a good faith effort to move forward with bettering the quality of Misplaced Pages, together. :) -- Cirt (talk) 18:48, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Update: Unfortunately, Delicious carbuncle has refused my offer (see also edit summary) to work collaboratively together with him. The offer is still open. I'd very much like to work together with Delicious carbuncle to collaboratively improve the quality of a Misplaced Pages article on the topic to GA or FA. :) -- Cirt (talk) 20:04, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by DocJames

What DC has written off Misplaced Pages is inappropriate harassment A ban or further interaction with Cirt was not proposed because of a persistent pattern of inappropriate editing of Scientology article but for inappropriate behavior WRT another editor.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 07:14, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Griswaldo

I'm on record already, in more than one venue, regarding the inappropriate nature of these sanctions. I initiated Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Inappropriate_discretionary sanction_at AE? after a failed direct appeal to User:Future Perfect at Sunrise on their talk page to consider allowing a truly uninvolved admin do the job. It is important to look at the chain of events here.

1. Cirt files an AN/I about Delicious carbuncle's editing of Jamie Sorrentini.
2. Carbuncle decides to use the AN/I platform to air his various complaints about Cirt's POV editing of Scientology related entries.
3. Cirt contacts various admins to help him out at AN/I, but no remedies are enacted (for the canvassing evidence see here.
4. During this AN/I discussion Future Perfect levies the following criticism/threat at carbuncle - "If you feel those articles are problematic, then go and fix them, otherwise drop the stick, or this is going to become a boomerang for you."
5. After no remedies are found at AN/I Cirt takes the discussion to AE, and proceeds to contqact more admins (see above link), this time appealing directly to Future Perfect.
6. Future Perfect's first edits to the AE discussion are to impose sanctions on carbuncle.

The combination of 4, 5, and 6 above, in swift succession is disturbing to say the least. Future Perfect claims to be "uninvolved" and to not have read Cirt's appeal on his/her talk page, simply glancing at it as reminder of the AE. Well we cannot know that, nor can we know what Future Perfect's intentions were. All we know is that 1) Future Perfect issued a threat to carbuncle, 2) Cirt asked Future Perfect to come to AE, and 3) Future Perfect made good on his/her threat. If that isn't improper I don't know what is.

Then there is the matter of the sanction itself, which appears Draconian to say the least. How can you ban an editor from complaining about policy violations EVER? The supposed "interaction" ban imposed dissallows carbuncle from raising complaints about Cirt, in the area of Scientology. Really? No matter what you think of Cirt it appears to be common knowledge that Cirt has a very strong anti-Scientology POV. And now he gets a free pass from the criticism of an editor who beleives he has crossed the line? How on earth is that ever appropriate? In short I think Future Perfect erred rather egregiously here. I really wish they took my initial request with more humility and simply let someone else deal with this. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 13:16, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Question - Why is the sanctioning admin commenting in a section reserved for "uninvolved administrators"? Certainly at this point Future Perfect is no longer "uninvolved".Griswaldo (talk) 16:36, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Jayen466

I propose that the original complaint be re-tried, by a quorum of at least five (5) administrators who have not been solicited by either party, and do not have a history of participation in arbitration cases involving cults. Any decision to reflect consensus among said admins, with a majority of four (4) required to take a decision. Does this sound fair? --JN466 14:25, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

That is not how AE works. We should not propose random arbitrary new procedures mid-case. -- Cirt (talk) 14:40, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

How does previous involvement with arbcom cases on cults have to do with anything? Would it be equally appropriate to find people who have never edited pseudoscience topics? OR been involved with BLPs? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:53, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

• I believe T. Canens is absolutely correct. Neither editor has received a warning as required by ARBSCI. In addition, DC made the BLP edits at issue before he was sort-of warned; he cannot be warned AND sanctioned for the same behaviour, without having repeated it after the warning. The sanction on DC should be lifted, and the only thing to do here is to work out the wording of the correct warning(s) the editor(s) should receive, outlining the conduct to be avoided, and linking to the ARBSCI remedy in question. AE must go by the book, and be seen to go by the book; otherwise it is just vigilante justice.
• Someone will no doubt say that admins could apply any sanction they liked under the earlier 2007 COFS case's remedy, and that if the 2009 remedy doesn't suit, one could be using the 2007 article probation to apply sanctions not envisaged by the 2009 case. I don't find that convincing. --JN466 11:01, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Attn. Timotheus Canens

Timotheus, I concur with Jehochman, below, and am really grateful to you for your diligence and attention to process detail. Delicious Carbuncle should be warned about two things:

1. Adding a poor-quality source to a Scientology-related BLP
2. Edit-warring to keep it in the article.

Neither should recur. Apart from that, Delicious Carbuncle does not deserve to be warned for having raised good-faith content and policy concerns about Cirt's editing. No editor should be prohibited from raising such concerns in good faith. In this particular case, several editors and admins feel these concerns may have merit, and that is something for the community or this board to look at and decide at some point in the future. --JN466 13:10, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Scott MacDonald re BLP issues

I don't care about AE, Scientology or who Canvassed whom, but I do care about BLPs. I make no bones about the fact that I read on Misplaced Pages Review that Cirt was POV pushing on Scientology matters, so I took a look.

I came to the article Jamie Sorrentini, which Cirt had created and maintained. The article was clearly not neutral, it was puffed in every imaginable way (see this version). I don't normally worry about over-positive BLPs, but I googled around and (fairly unreliable) sources identified her connection to Scientology. The blogosphere indicates she's now an noted ex-scientologist (although, again, the sources are unreliable.

The article didn't mention Scientology at all, but I wondered about Cirt's motivation and neutrality, so I performed a moderate clean-up, removing some of the puffery. I was met with Cirt's aggressive ownership of the article, and his fairly aggressive attitude when I sought uninvolved input on the BLPNB. Cirt is obviously NOT neutral on such BLPs.

It was at this point DC added info to the bio claiming she was a scientologist. The material was a clear BLP violation, and poorly sourced. (More worryingly it presented her as a Scientologist when it appears she is no longer one.) I supported Cirt in the removal of it. See the discussion here

However, it appears that DC's motivation was pointed, since Cirt had used exactly the same source on a number of occasions to label living people as Scientologists. So Cirt's objection to it here was hypocritical. See the important discussion here.

The Wikipoltics and personalities here are not interesting. What's important is that Cirt is obviously pushing agendas in BLPs and that DC is willing to breach the BLP policy to make a point in response.

Cut to the chase: Arbcom ought to ban DC and Cirt from all Scientology related BLPs. We can't have people pushing agendas or fighting wikibattles at the expense of the bios of living people.--Scott Mac 16:50, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Should we delete all of Cirt's featured articles related to Scientology? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever. Jehochman 16:52, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting we delete anything. I'm suggesting people with agendas don't push them on BLPs, and admins of Cirt's standing get zero tolerance here - there's no excuse. What doesn't make sense about that?--Scott Mac 16:55, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Cirt knows how to write proper articles. If you have concerns about specific edits, please file a report at WP:BLPN, or start a new enforcement request, rather than complicating this thread, which is not about Cirt. Let's focus on the sanction appeal. Jehochman 17:00, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Stop wikilawyering. I'm trying to set the context here, so we don't swallow camels and strain gnats. This discussion is too spread out and atomised as it is without me opening yet another thread.--Scott Mac 17:10, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

• This strikes me, from my own reading of the relevant threads to be an excellent and concise summary of events, please let me know if something was missed. I concur with Scott MacDonald's proposed remedy. un☯mi 17:28, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
  • I haven't commented much on the Cirt side of things so far, but I have to say I'm beginning to see some of these problems too. He may be a valuable contributor about the topic as a whole, but perhaps it would be good if he kept away from related BLPs. No opinion on whether this should be handled within this thread or yet somewhere else. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:37, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by The Resident Anthropologist (talk)

I agree with the topic ban and interaction ban whole heartedly, though I disagree with the imposed length of the bans. I think Carbuncle certainly set this up as the between his statements at Wikipeida Review suggest his pleading ignorance here is misdirection.

That being said, I am uncomfortable with the way Furture Presents bans appear whether or not it is that way I am unsure.

Short timeline

• 07:52, 8 December 2010 Cirt appropriately ANI thread on DC's BLP violations
• 22:47, 11 December 2010 First comment by Future Perfect at Sunrise
• 23:18, 11 December 2010 Secondd comment by Future Perfect at Sunrise quote "otherwise drop the stick, or this is going to become a boomerang for you. "
• 04:22, 13 December 2010 Cirt Issues request appropriately files an AE request
• 15:20, 13 December 2010 Cirt's appeals to Future perfect sunrise to intervene on his behalf at AE involving Jayen466
• 19:40, 13 December 2010 Future Perfect Sunrise issues a indefinite topic-ban for all Scientology-related edits on User:Delicious carbuncle, including but not limited to an interaction ban against bringing forward any further Sc.-related complaints against User:Cirt in any forum."

In the results section it clearly says:

"This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above."

To me this is not about whether DC deserved such remedies, but rather was it appropriate after being requested by Cirt to look at the AE and had been involved in ANI. The question is whether it was truly appropriate for him to consider himself as uninvolved to enforce such actions and whether he violated the WP:INVOLVED Clause of Admin regulations.

Frankly I cannot but feel the entire situation is tainted by Future Perfects actions and cannot support these sanctions at this time

Evidence Submitted by The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 17:37, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Another Statement

The section Result of the appeal by Delicious carbuncle states: This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I feel it is inappropriate for people who have commented at ANI involved with this situation and who's enforcement is under question to be editing within that section The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 17:45, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

• As of 18:16, 14 December 2010 (UTC) I have yet to see any uninvolved Admins make a comment in the Result of the appeal by Delicious carbuncleThe Resident Anthropologist (talk)
  • You seem to have missed me. How do you think I am involved in this dispute? Jehochman 18:18, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
    • apologies having reviewed your comments at ANI you are indeed correct. Above comment stricken The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 19:40, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Comment by GraemeL

As an admin who became involved with the problems surrounding Delicious carbuncle when he moved his grievances to WP:BLPN, I threatened to block him for disruption and wrote here in support of sanctions against him. However, I think that the proposed remedy (being appealed here) was far too harsh, a permanent topic ban should only be used if he continues to try and forum shop and cause disruption to other editors and other (more lenient) sanctions fail to change his behaviour.

That said, I think the current proposed sanctions, while in the correct order of magnitude, are (as is being argued by some non-involved admins) on the side of being too lenient, but feel that the current discussions below seem to be zeroing in on an more appropriate response to this editors behaviour. --GraemeL 20:28, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by un☯mi

On reading through some of the numerous and massive threads on this it seems to me that a picture emerges of Cirt being entirely too engaged in our Scientology related articles, to the point where niceties such as proper sourcing and intellectual integrity is thrown to the wind. For a primer see ANI Case study one. Have a look at the initial article Cirt created, as was noted on ANI, it certainly smacks of a preoccupation with scientology, rather than writing good articles.

Then note ANI Case study two, where it seems clear that Cirt is not only following the blog but is all but acting as an agent of it, for lack of better words.

I took a random jump into Cirts edit history, landing on March, this year, Cirt is very prolific, but I don't think it is too difficult to conclude that there is a pattern that emerges, almost all the articles have a relationship to Scientology. Many of the edits are, taken individually, benign, a fluff word here, removing trivially verifiable information, here, and closing an Afd that has some connection to scientology as keep, here (beckett media discontinued a magazine on neopets ( apparently a product by a company with connections to scientology ). There are numerous edits like these. I do get the impression that the decision on whether a gossip column should be considered an RS for BLP depends on whether the subject is judged to be pro or con Scientology and if the source is positive or negative, always with the result that subjects that Cirt considers to be 'pro scientologists' are put in negative light, or their accomplishments diminished.

Note that considering the source that got this whole thing started, Cirt participated in an RfC in 2007 that found it unreliable, here (his nick was smee), yet he himself adds it here in 2009, albeit as an external link.

Consider the manner of conflict resolution employed by Cirt throughout this situation. In the RS/N discussion, here, there is a very quick move to open this ANI thread, over something that frankly would hardly merit AN3, 15 minutes after the 3rd addition by DC. Then, shortly after DC starts posting specific issues at ANI, Cirt opens the initial AE thread with an assortment of charges, including forum shopping, though as near as I can tell, the posts by DC simply invited comment at the ANI thread regarding the issues raised, yet Cirt engages in rather blatant canvassing. This statement by Cirt is particularly ironic considering that he himself just opened first RSN then ANI and then an AE: "The problem is there has been no prior attempts by Delicious carbuncle (talk · contribs) at dispute resolution or attempts to resolve the matter through discussion. Rather, instead the user repeatedly chooses to escalate the issues directly, and engage in disruption across multiple pages. -- Cirt (talk) 16:30, 13 December 2010 (UTC)". Within the threads themselves, Cirt seems to say almost nothing, indeed it is unnecessary for him to do so as long as there is an unwillingness of the participants to look at the heart of the matter, and less so when there is what amounts to active distraction from it.

My own interpretation is that DC did indeed set out to make a case against Cirt, but frankly it seems a case that needed to be made. Within that interpretation I have believe that DC did in fact not intend to leave the BLP with a poorly sourced statement of fact. I should also say that any perceived 'disruption' would be down to Cirts strategy of escalation rather than engagement. In light of this understanding I find the initial AE result missing the mark.

There have been a number of suggestions regarding a change of venue for looking at possibly problematic behavior by Cirt, but that is not necessary, the actions of all involved parties is open for investigation and sanction.

I don't at the moment remember any prior involvement with Cirt. I don't care much for scientology, I think it is a shame that people can't rest in themselves more, nonetheless I am compelled to speak out against what I read as trying to 'right great wrongs' by way of manipulation, wikilawyering and other tactics meant to sustain a POV rather than engage in open discussion. Especially considering that, unless there is a previous account, Cirt joined wikipedia precisely to engage Scientology see first contributions, such as this (which, if duly sourced and written in a more encyclopedic tone, is an edit I approve wholeheartedly of and sympathize with). The question isn't whether Cirt is fighting 'the good fight', it is if he is fighting it in a manner where there is one.

I don't think that we as a community are really mature enough to deal with half measures when it comes to people that can command as much influence as Cirt seems to. I urge you to consider a topic ban on anything related to scientology for Cirt, and either apply it for the same duration for DC or lift it altogether for DC until an actual problem manifests itself. There are plenty of other topics available for editors of their caliber. un☯mi 21:58, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

I just came across this exchange with GraemeL which, to my mind, reads as nothing more than an attempt to have DC removed post haste, and a similar one with FisherQueen, note that this is regarding ANI, and prior to the AE round of canvassing. un☯mi 22:47, 15 December 2010 (UTC) It seems that for the initial ANI thread FisherQueen, GraemeL, Jayron32, and HelloAnnyong all got tapped with neutral, non-campaigning notifications. un☯mi 23:14, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Littleolive oil

No matter the perceived questionable behaviour of either of these editors, haphazard application of arbitration remedies is not an acceptable way of dealing with the issues. If either of these editors was not warned and although I've been following this discussion, I'm not up on this case to know if they were or not, neither should be sanctioned at this time. We most emphatically cannot and must not ignore the due process as outlined by arbitration, otherwise mob rule takes another step in ruling and controlling Misplaced Pages. And it doesn't matter if the so-called-mob is perceived to be right or wrong. (olive (talk) 16:22, 15 December 2010 (UTC))

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Delicious carbuncle

Result of the appeal by Delicious carbuncle

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I believe the sanction is unnecessary. However, using a Scientology website to establish that somebody is a follower of Scientology is highly dubious. If that fact is relevant to the biography, surely it would be reported by a reliable secondary source. The consensus appears to be against using this source. DC will you abide by the consensus even if you don't agree with it? Cirt, will you drop the matter? Jehochman 16:26, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm afraid your comment partly misses the mark: D.c. has already agreed that the source is inappropriate. The issue is that it very much appears he knew from the start it was not only inappropriate in general, but also outdated in this particular case, and he only used it in a deliberate POINT maneuvre to create an opportunity for lampooning the fact that Cirt had used the same source previously. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:32, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't see any evidence that what DC did was malicious. Simply treat it as a mistake, ask him to stop, and if he agrees, the matter is resolved. Jehochman 16:51, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Given the fact that this was part of a long-standing personalized conflict with Cirt, as documented on Wikipediareview and elsewhere, and – whatever his beliefs about the concrete details of the facts of that bio at any one time – the whole episode was clearly manifactured on his part, with the main goal not of improving the biography but of provoking and setting up his opponent, I'm afraid I cannot muster this amount of AGF here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:58, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I think (assuming as much good faith as I can) this was a BLP violation performed to out Cirt's use of the same dubious source on a number of articles.--Scott Mac 17:00, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Can we please stop making a mountain out of a molehill. A source was disputed. This minor dispute was escalated needlessly, causing several lengthy and unproductive discussions. Would you all please try to work together. Failing that, I support dishing out blocks for WP:BATTLE to those who want to keep fighting. Jehochman 17:04, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Are you threatening me with a block, for handing out an arbitration enforcement sanction and defending it afterwards?! You've got some nerve. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:10, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Not unless you are fighting. Are you? Jehochman 17:42, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

As far as I'm concerned, I am having a collegial discussion with you. Or I would be, if it wasn't for the fact that you suddenly turned against me with childish threats. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:44, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I think you misunderstood me. Read what I wrote carefully and assume good faith, instead of assuming the worst. Jehochman 17:48, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Jehochman! Where the fuck did that come from? We're tying to work out what's going on here and how we best enforce neutrality wrt Scientology, which is the point of the whole arbcom case. Threatening to block people for raising related issues you don't like is ridiculous aggression. Block me for that, I'll block you back, and then we'll all be blocked. Knock it off - this is schoolboy bullying WP:BATTLE tactics at their lowest..--Scott Mac 17:14, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Can you make your point without cursing and name-calling? Jehochman 17:42, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Gents, please. I think you've all misunderstood each other and, of not, should resolve this on your own talk pages. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:19, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Proposed resolutions

1. Short blocks to those disputants who continue to battle after being warned by any uninvolved administrator.
2. Overturn sanction on DC, and instead issue a warning not to use dubious primary sources in WP:BLP articles.

• I support these both. Jehochman 17:47, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
• I support the blocks, but a warning is just too lenient. I'm going to suggest a medium term (maybe a couple of months) ban on editing BLPs related to scientology and on adding material related to scientology to other BLPs and maybe a mutual interaction ban. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:19, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
• Scott Mac's evidence demonstrates the problem cuts both ways. This discussion is illuminative. I suggest both Cirt and DC are topic-banned from BLPs within the topic area for two months. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:24, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
  • I'd support that. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:17, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose overturning the sanction on DC - this discussion has clearly and unambiguously demonstrated the wisdom of its original imposition, whether the decision was as uninvolved as ideal or not. I believe that we don't need a new sanction to block disruptive editors. I support launching a User RFC on Cirt and Scientology edits to determine if there's good evidence for a real problem or not - this discussion here is generating far too much heat and little light to be of rational value in determining that, and it's not the right venue in any case. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 20:06, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

  This is within an area of conflict in which discretionary sanctions apply. The correct place to discuss Cirt's behaviour within the area of conflict is here, not in yet another forum. --Mkativerata (talk) 20:13, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose overturning the sanction on DC - We have not sufficiently discussed other editors to hand out further sanction. A ban of Cirt was exactly what the Misplaced Pages Review it seems was hoping to accomplish with these games. It appears that we have a lot of personality conflicts and people need to get back to writing content rather than biting each other. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:20, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

  Are you purporting to be an "uninvolved administrator"? --Mkativerata (talk) 20:21, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

  In that I do not / have not edited pages on Scientology and you? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:24, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

  I just wanted to clarify - because you've made "above the line" statements in the original AE and on the appeal, and you appear to have quite clear views, I am not sure whether you consider yourself involved or uninvolved. --Mkativerata (talk) 20:31, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

  Ah yes was not aware of the significance of the line :-) A number of people including Future posted above and below. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:57, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

• I'm going to have to argue for shortening this one. According to WP:ARBSCI, "If the editor fails to heed the warning, the editor may be topic banned, initially, for three months, then with additional topic bans increasing in duration to a maximum of one year." I'm not seeing anything in that decision to authorise an indef topic ban as imposted. That said, I find DC's behaviour worthy of the sanction authorised. Courcelles 20:40, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

The consensus appears to be that DC's topic ban is upheld. Per WP:ARBSCI, this being the first infraction, the ban length is three months, per Courcelles. As for Cirt, this thread is an appeal of a sanction. It is not going to impose a sanction on Cirt, without prejudice to somebody starting a separate thread where evidence of misbehavior by Cirt may be put forward and Cirt given a chance to respond. Finally, if editors involved in this dispute decide to carry on in other venues, they are risking a possible block for WP:BATTLE. If the next administrator, who has not commented here yet, would be so kind as to close the thread, that would be appreciated. Jehochman 21:03, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

There is precedent and mandate for imposing restrictions on Cirt if necessary. Per Scott's summary, they seem necessary to me. Topic ban both of them for the same length of time. Note: I don't think this is closable yet, as there is open business. ++Lar: t/c 21:26, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree that whatever sanction is imposed on one should be the same for the other, but I think a ban on editing scientology-related BLPs and adding scientology-related information to other BLPs better gets to the crux of the disruption. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:01, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps a more precise BLP ban is better, I could go either way, as long as it's on both folk at the least, and not just DC. ++Lar: t/c 23:23, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm with HJ Mitchell on this one. All sanctions in this case should be bilateral, and include a mutual interaction ban. That would stop all of the silliness we have seen. Perhaps a community-based restriction discussion at WP:AN would be an appropriate venue, if this isn't it? --Jayron32 22:04, 14 December 2010 (UTC) --- This editor is highly involved and is not allowed to post here. Jehochman 22:13, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Involved or not, Jayron raises some good points, but I don't think moving back to AN is the right thing to do. ++Lar: t/c 23:23, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

My bad, this is Jayron32, not Jayen466. I confused the two. Jayron is uninvolved as far as I know. Many apologies! Jehochman 01:13, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Agree with both Lar and HJ. It is well-established that AE can consider the actions of all relevant parties, including the filer of the AE. There is no reason not to extend that principle to appeals. Discretionary sanctions don't even need to arise from AEs to begin with - they can be imposed at any administrator's discretion. Given that Cirt is an admin, and the clear evidence that he/she attempted to procure a favourable result at the AE by improper canvassing, we need to be all the more careful not to create an impression of flick-passing this to other venues.--Mkativerata (talk) 22:06, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

(undent) It seems like we have a group of people using Misplaced Pages Review to solicit support for criticizing Crit. Here we find User:Lar and User:Jayen466 for example. Measures may need to be expanded a bit beyond these two to address off site attacks. BTW is Misplaced Pages Review counted as WP:CANVASSING? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:08, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

To be fair, I'm not seeing Lar engage in Cirt-related discussion, let alone lobbying, in that discussion. He seems to have been talking about something else. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:22, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

True but the thread is labeled "Cirt revisited" Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:36, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

• I am really uneasy about this group of editors showing up here in the uninvolved section lobbying for new sanctions in an appeal. Cirt hasn't been presented with evidence of wrongdoing, and hasn't been given a chance to respond. This is irregular and improper, and if it continues, I will ask ArbCom to scrutinize the behavior of all concerned. Jehochman 22:12, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Yes Cirt has. And I'm very happy for you report me to arbcom for whatever imaginary things you've already threatened to block me for. Beware the boomerang though. I don't see your reaction here as indicating disinterest or neutrality.--Scott Mac 22:45, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
    • I don't think we need Arbcom. If there is a need for more systematic scrutiny regarding Cirt, a User RfC would be the obvious choice, and if that results in serious concerns, sanctioning can still happen under the ARBSCI rules. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:50, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
• In fairness to Cirt, if somebody thinks there is a problem, please put together the evidence and start a thread. This thread is very noisy and disorganized. It is not proper to sanction an editor who has generated lots of high quality content without giving them a fair chance to respond to concerns. Jehochman 22:29, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Per the evidence above, I strongly support the view that Cirt's long term bias in this area merits at least as long a BLP topic ban as DC's one violation. Violating BLP to prove a point as DC did is poor, but the point is itself not a bad one.--Scott Mac 22:45, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

• Looking at Misplaced Pages review it appears that it is only possible do determine who some of the people commenting are. We do however have previously involved by User:Jayen466 and User: Delicious carbuncle while User:Lar commented on the threat but not really about Cirt. Is there anyway to determine if others here are also involved with what appears to be a coordinated effort over there?
• Also Scott Mac appears involved Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:03, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Involved in what? The only thing I'm ever involved with these days is concerns about BLP. I've presented evidence of Cirt's problematic attitude to BLP editing here. It is probably best to defend Cirt by rebutting the charge, rather than hunting for conspiracies. Nice attempt to deflect, but it doesn't wash.--Scott Mac 23:07, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
    • You have been involved with editing the page that this whole thing is about. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:10, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
      • So?--Scott Mac 23:15, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
        • Precisely. ++Lar: t/c 23:17, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
      • @Doc James: If we're going to start flinging tar with a broad brush (to mix metaphors) I think it's possible your own actions need further scrutiny, actually. That said, I think trying to claim I'm involved because I commented on a person who commented on Cirt is a bit of a stretch. ++Lar: t/c 23:17, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
        • @Lar yes I have acknowledged that above. Your not really involved. I only brought this up as if we are going to address canvassing a few more people may be involved. We all really need to get back to editing though and I do not think this is place to deal with it.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:22, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

• Assuming it's not to late to say so, I think the 2 resolutions above are quite reasonable. If the topic and/or interaction ban is intended to quell the drama, I also support applying it to both parties (applying to one or another seems unlikely to have much of a quelling effect). --SB_Johnny |  23:32, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

• Hi. This is an appeal by DC. It's pretty clear that the restriction needs to be reduced to 3 months to accord with WP:ARBSCI. Other than that, if people feel other editors need sanctioning, please start a thread, and include diffs. It is not fair to sanction somebody without showing them the evidence and giving them a chance to respond. Handwaving statements like he's just as bad don't make the cut. Also, anybody filing a complaint should disclose any history they have with the other editor(s). Thank you. Jehochman 01:17, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Sorry, I don't agree with that. AE has a wide mandate, and if the original case had an incorrect outcome (Cirt didn't get any sanctions) the appeal process can fix that. Don't insist on needless paperwork. Also, you raised the "Cirt hasn't seen the evidence/hasn't had a chance to respond" already and it was rebutted. ++Lar: t/c 01:23, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
    • Where is the evidence against Cirt? Where is Cirt's response. Please don't try to steamroll somebody like this. It is not fair and I will not stand for it. Jehochman 01:28, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
• The relevant remedy states that "Prior to topic banning the editor, the administrator will leave a message on the editor's talk page, linking to this paragraph, warning the editor that a topic ban is contemplated and outlining the behaviours for which it is contemplated" (emphasis mine). Was such a warning (with the link, explicitly stating that a topic ban was contemplated, and outlining the disruptive behavior) given to either Cirt or DC? If so, can someone provide diffs? T. Canens (talk) 01:54, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
  • D.c. was warned by Jayron here and by multiple people, including myself, in the course of the preceding ANI discussions. Misplaced Pages is not a bureaucracy, not even when it comes to Arbcom enforcement. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:46, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
    • That warning neither stated that a topic ban was contemplated (it only says that the user may be blocked), nor linked to the specific remedy authorizing a topic ban (but only a general link to WP:ARBSCI), nor outlined the objectionable conduct (indeed, it deliberately avoided the question whether the edits mentioned are objectionable). It does not satisfy the requirement in the remedy. This remedy's warning provision is much more explicit than the usual discretionary sanctions provisions, and the sanction authorized (only topic bans) is also much more limited.They generally require only that "rior to any sanctions being imposed, the editor in question shall be given a warning with a link to the decision authorizing sanctions" (from WP:DSN; similar wording can be found in WP:ARBAA2, WP:ARB911, WP:ARBCC, and so on), some may add that the warning needs to be given by an uninvolved administrator; all of these, moreover, authorize blocks, revert restrictions, as well as any other measure the enforcing administrator deems necessary. In this case, however, the applicable remedy provides for a single sanction, and requires a very specific warning: it must link to the section authorizing the topic ban, indicate that a topic ban is being contemplated, and describe the conduct found objectionable. Our authority to enforce an arbcom decision comes only from the delegation of authority contained in that decision, and we are powerless to depart from its terms when taking action under its authority. Further, individual administrators do not have the authority, independent of arbcom, to impose topic bans; that power lies with the community. Unless prior warnings in compliance with the requirements in the remedy were given, I am of the view that the sanction at issue must be lifted, because no administrator was authorized to impose it in the first place. T. Canens (talk) 07:10, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
      • D.c. had previously explicitly acknowledged he knew about the sanctions rule, and he knew is own conduct was being critically reviewed under it. The rest (about specific links to specific sections needing to be posted in specific places, no less!) ist bureaucratic red tape. WP:NOTBUREAUCRACY is policy, and as such binding even to Arbcom and our way of interpreting and enforcing Arbcom decisions. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:18, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
        • That section deals with interpretation of policies, guidelines and similar material - it is understood that they are generally descriptive, not prescriptive, thus it is inappropriate to seize on the letter of the wording because it is the spirit that reflects the community consensus they document. An arbcom remedy is neither a policy nor a guideline; it does not "document already existing community consensus", and indeed may not be amended by community consensus (the community does not have the power to overturn an arbcom ban, for example), and nor do we have the power to remove arbcom's instruction creep, if it is indeed instruction creep. We simply cannot use the power given to us by arbcom to enforce its decisions to place bans that are inconsistent with their plain language. T. Canens (talk) 07:32, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
• I would favor revoking the existing sanction against DC. There is another question regarding the possibility of placing a sanction against both Cirt and DC. Personally, without commenting on the reasonableness of such an idea, I really do not think that this is necessarily the best place to have such a discussion. The amount of material which could be presented and potentially responded to in such a discussion is, to my eyes anyway, probably way too long to be able to be included in this page without making the page unduly long for some editors. I would myself at least favor creating a separate subpage for such a discussion. I also think that, if such is to be done, starting the discussion over with the presentation of the evidence against the various parties would be in everyone's best interests. But this section is really getting unduly long as is, and would doubtless get even longer if we were to fairly discuss application of sanctions against Cirt. John Carter (talk) 18:25, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Result of appeal by Delicious carbuncle, section 2

Timotheus, could you leave Delicious carbuncle a note linking to Misplaced Pages:ARBSCI#Discretionary_topic_ban and ask them to confirm that they understand what the concerns are. Additionally, could you strike the sanction on DC logged at WP:ARBSCI, because it clearly failed to follow the prescribed process? I agree with you completely that arbitration remedies must be applied according to process. Improvisation is not allowed (unlike most situations on Misplaced Pages).

As for Cirt, if an uninvolved administrator wants to compile evidence of problematic editing and leave a warning, that would be fine. I will specifically caution those who were canvassed by Cirt, those who've been discussing this on Misplaced Pages Review, and those who've been advocating for out-of-process sanctions, to please recuse from any administrative action. Any editor is welcome to file an arbitration enforcement request if they feel that an arbitration remedy has been violated. Jehochman 11:57, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Not acceptable. See above. Scott Mac references it when he said "per the evidence above". Review it please. We need the same thing applied to Cirt as DC. Or more. And stop casting aspersions on participants. ++Lar: t/c 14:54, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, the arbitration remedy is very clear that sanctions cannot be applied until after the mandatory warning. As I've said, any uninvolved administrator is welcome to copy the evidence and issue the warning. I'm not going to do any of this myself because I don't want to cause more controversy. Jehochman 15:01, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

82kbs later, I'm not sure I'm totally clear on whats going on here, but I've been able to pull the following issues out:

• Delicious carbuncle's sanction may have been given without a warning.
• Delicious carbuncle's off-wiki comments are being used as evidence of bias
• There is a concern that Cirt's editing patterns in the Scientology area are insufficiently neutral to be allowed to edit in BLPs because of the heightened stakes in BLPs
• Ditto for Delicious Carbuncle
  • Apparently there is a suggestion that ArbCom ban both Cirt and Delicious Carbuncle from Scientology related BLPS, which seems like an odd thing to use AE for, as we're short on Arbitrators.
• Several administrators (who I respect a great deal for their long standing dedication to Misplaced Pages and her* goals) have interacted... acrimoniously with each other.

Separately, statements such as "I am out to expose X as the Y that I believe X to be" suggest a battlefield mentality wholly inappropriate for a collaborative environment. Anyway, are we talking about a pattern of edits across multiple BLPs, or are we talking about the Jamie Sorrentini article exclusively? What, if anything have I missed?--Tznkai (talk) 05:26, 16 December 2010 (UTC)*her, as in the Good Ship Misplaced Pages

Please confirm actual result of appeal I note that Tim hasn't removed DC's sanction as requested by Jehochman, and Future Perfect has removed an AE filing by DC on the grounds that the sanction is still in place. Without commenting on the merits or otherwise of DCs attempted filing, can we please clarify which of three outcomes discussed above applies

1. The appeal has failed
2. The appeal has succeeded and the sanction has been modified from 'in perpetuity' to 'for 3 months'
3. The sanction has been overturned due to a failure of process and should be removed from the list.

Thanks --Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:46, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

I think it's option three. The process on this stinks all the way around. Overturn without prejudice against an uninvolved admin giving a proper, ARBSCI compliant warning. DC's conduct was bad, but we can't cite NOTBURO and sidestep clear requirements from ArbCom- that makes individual admins too powerful. Courcelles 12:51, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Noting that I still stand by my assessment with respect to the objective justification of the sanction, I cannot of course stand in the way of my colleagues if they value the formalities of the warning procedures higher than I did. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:59, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for that, I will strike the sanction from the record on grounds of technical non compliance with procedure. Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:10, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Silver seren

Jalapenos do exist

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Jalapenos do exist

User requesting enforcement

Gatoclass (talk) 05:12, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Jalapenos do exist (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

Misplaced Pages:ARBPIA#Discretionary_sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. WP:GAME - see explanation in "Additional comments" section below
2. WP:GAME, see below
3. WP:GAME, see below
4. WP:GAME, see below
5. , WP:GAME, see below
6. , WP:GAME, see below
7. , WP:GAME, see below
8. , WP:GAME, see below
9. , WP:GAME, see below
10. , WP:GAME, see below

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

1. Warning by Georgewilliamherbert (talk · contribs)

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

Topic ban. Preferably an extended one.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Short version of evidence

Since some users have complained that my evidence is too long, here's the short version:

• November 23: Jalapenos do exist self noms an article, Civilian casualty ratio, at DYK.
• November 24: The article is nominated for deletion.
• December 3: The AFD is closed as keep, but 14 out of 22 users express concerns about the content of the article.
• Discussion about whether or not to promote the article to the mainpage continues at DYK. After a number of people including myself express POV concerns about the article's content, I eventually reluctantly agree to work with Jalapenos to try and fix the problems. The complete discussion at DYK can be read here.
• December 6: I start working on the article.
• December 6: I remove Dershowitz from lead as wp:undue.
• December 6: I remove Dershowitz as not a reliable source.
• December 6: I remove Gordon as a partisan source.
• December 6: I refactor Katz.
• December 6: I add some info about the Goldstone Report for balance.
• December 7: Philip Baird Shearer (PBS) complains about some of the article's content under two different headers, the complete discussions can be read here and here.
• December 8: I leave a note at DYK stating that a new user is complaining about the article content.
• December 8: Jalapenos responds to my note at DYK as follows: I don't see any "holdup" or a new user objecting to any content. I see PBS objecting to section headings recently added by you. I tend to agree with his assessment that your additions are WP:SYNTH, but it's only section headings, no big deal. Note that he doesn't mention any of my previous deletions. He just says the dispute between me and PBS is "no big deal", and that he sees no reason for a "holdup", ie he sees no substantive disagreements that would stop the article being promoted at DYK.
• December 9: After a discussion between PBS and myself on the article's talk page, I agree that Kaldor is a dubious source, and remove her from the article lede.
• December 9: After another discussion with PBS on the talk page, I agree with PBS that Oren is also a dubious source and replace him with a better and more comprehensive source.
• December 9-13: I add a whole bunch more stuff about some other wars to the article.
• December 12: I notify Jalapenos that I am just about done editing the article. Since he hasn't participated in talk page discussion or challenged any of my edits over the last six days, I ask him to confirm that the content as it stands is acceptable to him. He replies: I have no objections to the article in its current form that exceed the usual disagreements between editors. I think it should go to DYK.
• December 12: Jalapenos also leaves a note at the DYK discussion: Let's do this. After making his own changes to the article, Gatoclass has told me that he thinks it should be promoted.
• December 12: Assuming from these statements, and from his lack of challenges to my edits over the last six days, that he has no problem with the content and the article is stable, I concur that the article is ready for an independent review.
• December 13: EdChem approves the current version of the article for promotion.
• 00:00, December 14: The DYK bot moves the next update containing the hook to Jalapenos' article to the main page.
• 00:14, December 14: Jalapenos deletes some criticism of Israel from the article.
• 00:19, 14 December: Jalapenos restores Dershowitz.
• 00:21, December 14: Jalapenos deletes more criticism of Israel.
• 00:24, December 14: Jalapenos restores Katz.
• 00:24, Decmber 14: Jalapenos restores Gordon.
• 00:26, December 14: Jalapenos restores Dershowitz to lead.
• 00:27, December 14: Jalapenos restores Kaldor.
• 00:31, December 14: Jalapenos restores Oren.

So hopefully now the situation is clearer. Jalapenos nominated an article to DYK that numerous users found problematic; I worked on that article for 8 days to NPOV it so it could be promoted; J. made no attempt to challenge any of my edits for any of those 8 days, except to comment that he saw only one minor issue that was "no big deal". He confirmed at the end of that 8 days in response to my query that he had no objections to the article in its current form that exceed the usual disagreements between editors; EdChem approved that same version of the article on the basis that it was NPOV and stable; and then, 15 minutes after the article was promoted to the main page, Jalapenos made wholesale changes that essentially restored his own version of the article which had been headed for rejection 8 days prior.

Jalapenos subverted the DYK quality control process by allowing me to bring the article to a state where it could be approved at DYK, only to revert back to his own heavily contested version a few minutes after the article was promoted to the main page. That constitutes an egregious violation of WP:GAME. He also clearly negotiated in bad faith for an extended period, staying silent through all my changes except to indicate at one point that outstanding disputes were "no big deal", and leading me to believe at the end of that process that he had no substantial objections to the article "in its current form" in order to gain my consent for the article's promotion, only to restore virtually all the contested content when the article went to the mainpage. Gatoclass (talk) 20:49, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Response to Tznkai

In response to your questions Tznkai - this case is not about the content of Jalapenos' edits. My references to the content were simply a means of supplying some background information about the origins of the dispute.

There are two issues at hand in this case:

• Firstly, that J. subverted DYK's established quality control processes, taking advantage of my week's worth of editing to get the article passed at DYK, only to substantially restore his rejected version when the article appeared on the mainpage;
• Secondly, that J. engaged in bad faith negotiating per WP:GAME in that he led me to believe he had no substantive issues with the edits I made to the article over a period of more than a week, even assuring me at the end of that process that he had no objections to the article in its current form, before restoring virtually all the content I had removed as the article went to the mainpage.

I consider the first issue above to be an egregious breach of process since it affects content which appears on the main page. His edits made a total mockery of DYK's quality control processes. If we were to allow this sort of thing, we might as well just ditch the DYK process altogether and allow users to promote their own articles with no scrutiny. The second in my opinion represents an unacceptable breach of faith. But both are clear breaches of GAME.

One additional clarification. J. and brewcrewer have both attempted to rebut my case by arguing that J. did not delete all my edits. But I never claimed that. What I said is that J. reverted almost all my edits pertaining to Israel. He restored almost in its entirety his version of the Israeli section of the article, which he knew had been protested at DYK by multiple users, which he knew I had deleted or refactored for NPOV reasons. The only part of that section which he did not remove, presumably because he could think of no grounds for doing so, was the subsection I added on the 1982 Lebanon War, but even there he made a deletion.

However, he in fact went even further than that, restoring virtually all of the material he knew was contested - not only in the Israeli section, but also in the lead, restoring kalder and dershowitz, and in the NATO section, restoring Oren. Kalder and Oren, moreover, were disputed not only by myself but also by Philip Baird Shearer on the talk page, so that these last two edits were made not only in subversion of the DYK process and in violation of GAME as described above, but also against talk page consensus. The fact that he left some other material I added to the article is irrelevant. The point is that he restored virtually all the contested content, knowing that content had already failed to achieve consensus at DYK, doing so a few minutes after the article's appearance on the main page when he had had the opportunity to contest those edits for more than a week, and after assuring me disingenuously that he had no objections to the article in its current form. Gatoclass (talk) 07:45, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

BTW, Jalapenos' claim that the article appeared on the main page at 6:00 am 14 December is incorrect. The article appeared on the main page at 0:00 14 December, and J. began his reverts 14 minutes later. Gatoclass (talk) 09:33, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Suggestion

Regarding the proposed remedies, why not simply make it that he can't edit articles in the topic area at all so long as they are on the mainpage? It's hardly an onerous restriction, and it would completely prevent any further attempts at gaming. Gatoclass (talk) 23:29, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Response to EdJohnston

First of all, let me say that I'm not fussed whether Jalapenos is sanctioned for his gaming or not. My primary concern in bringing this case to AE was to send a message to Jalapenos and any other editor contemplating gaming the DYK process as he did that it is unacceptable behaviour. In that regard, I will consider the purpose of this case served if J. is warned against any repeat of this conduct.

However, I must take issue with Ed's suggestion that the case may not fall under the purview of ARBPIA. I don't know what he means by this, but Misplaced Pages:ARBPIA#Discretionary_sanctions clearly states amongst other things that serious breaches of any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process in the topic area are actionable. J.'s edits were self-evidently related to the topic area, so that's not an issue. The question then is whether or not his conduct constituted a "serious breach" of expected standards of behaviour or normal editorial processes. Obviously not everybody is familiar with DYK's processes but I would have thought the GAMEing aspect would be clear enough to anyone who gave it a moment's thought. If an article has been through a review process that clears it for mainpage promotion, and then someone comes along and restores large slabs of contested content that had previously been removed as a result of that review while the article is on the main page, of course that is gaming. Otherwise we might as well just scrap the review process altogether and let editors promote whatever they like to the main page. Gatoclass (talk) 10:47, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

On reflection, I feel obliged to respond to some more of EdJohnston's comments, since I consider them to be quite misinformed.

First of all, Ed asks: This article was created by Jalapenos, but I wonder how it became his duty to fix all the perceived problems before it could become a DYK. Firstly, if you author an article and submit it to DYK, the responsibility is very much on you to ensure it complies with both content policies and DYK rules. Why on earth should it be otherwise? Does anyone nominate an article for promotion at GA or FAC and expect somebody else to fix it for them? I am totally mystified by this comment of Ed's. It is even odder given that Ed himself notes that I did substantial work on this article to bring it up to DYK standard. I was under absolutely no obligation to do so, and the article would have failed without my work to it. Ed's question would more appropriately be Why should Gatoclass have to work so hard to fix somebody's else's DYK submission? I can assure you I've been asking myself precisely the same question.

Secondly, Ed says The actual DYK hook was "... that according to a study by the International Committee of the Red Cross, the civilian casualty ratio in wars fought since the mid-20th century has been 10 civilian deaths for every soldier death?" That hook sounds innocuous and does not have an obvious POV. I very much agree. That's because the original hook submitted by Jalapenos was rejected as agenda driven, as a simple look at the DYK discussion demonstrates.

These comments of Ed's along with some others indicate to me that he hasn't been paying much attention to the evidence presented in this case. Ed, if as you suggested you don't have the "patience" to give proper consideration to this case, then I request you leave its adjudication to those who do. Regards, Gatoclass (talk) 12:02, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Discussion concerning Jalapenos do exist

Statement by Jalapenos do exist

This is my first time here, and I'm kind of taken aback, so I may be missing something. I understand that Gatoclass is accusing me of having violated WP:ARBPIA#Discretionary sanctions with one edit to World Conference against Racism 2001 and nine edits to Civilian casualty ratio, which I authored. But none of these edits were made to articles that were under ARBPIA discretionary sanctions, so how could I have violated them?

Civilian casualty ratio is about a general military history topic. Its only relevance to the Arab-Israeli conflict in particular is that one of the ratio's extreme values appears from the data and is explicitly stated by a notable observer to have been achieved within the Arab-Israeli conflict. Why should it be under ARBPIA sanctions? When I checked a few minutes ago, I did not see that anyone had ever put an ARBPIA warning tag on it or expressed in any other way the notion that it should be under these sanctions .

Similarly, World Conference against Racism 2001 is about a United Nations conference on racism, not about the Arab-Israeli conflict. Here, too, nobody had ever put an ARBPIA warning tag on the article or expressed in any other way the notion that it should be under ARBPIA sanctions. After I made the edit in question, someone did put an ARBPIA warning tag on the article. The person was - you guessed it - Gatoclass himself . I fail to see the logic of placing the tag on this article, but that's a discussion for another time. The point is that I had no way of knowing that Gatoclass would, in the future, put the tag there, and I had no other reason to suspect that anyone would consider this article to be within the area of the Arab-Israeli conflict.

I should note that the third article mentioned in Gatoclass's accusation (in the additional comments section), Durban III, which I authored, is exactly like the second one in these regards. In no way is it evident that someone would consider it to be within the area of the Arab-Israeli conflict, its only connection being peripheral. And nobody had ever expressed the notion that the article should be under ARBPIA sanctions until Gatoclass himself placed a warning tag on it after the edits for which he accuses me of violating ARBPIA sanctions .

Gatoclass's various charges in the "additional comments" section are as empty as the accusation itself. I'll respond to them, too, because I want to protect my reputation.

The edit I made to WCAR 2001, supposedly "highly tendentious", was: "The conference included distribution of the antisemitic forgery The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, portraits of Adolf Hitler, and expressions of hatred for Jews." This was virtually a quote from a news article by Gloria Galloway in the Canadian newspaper The Globe and Mail, which said, in the voice of the writer: "The initial conference in 2001 included distribution of the Chronicles of the Elders of Zion, a fake text purporting to be a Jewish plan for global domination, portraits of Adolph Hitler, and expressions of hatred for Jews" . (Interestingly, the Globe and Mail paragraph has since been changed online to the point where it does not support my original edit. This may be why Gatoclass challenged it, and if that's the case he was right to do so.) The edit was improper, Gatoclass says, because it "was made less than 40 minutes before the article was due for (proxy) promotion, leaving almost no time for anybody to see it and prevent it going to the main page". Huh? WTF is "proxy promotion"? This article, several years old, was not up for promotion. A different article, Durban III was up for DYK promotion at around the same time, a fact that I was not even aware of. Am I supposed to constantly check DYK so that I can avoid making edits to any article related to an article about to be promoted there?

Next we have the suggestion that I gamed the system with my behavior regarding Civilian casualty ratio and the process of its DYK promotion. I'll ignore Gatoclass's extremely long prefatory attempt to discredit the article itself, because it's irrelevant. His point seems to be that I deceived him about my position on his series of changes to the article in order to get him to support it for DYK promotion. Here is my position, which has never changed and which is shared by other editors (who are not "one or two of my buddies", by the way): some of his edits were bad, but these bad edits were not so significant as to make the article unsuitable for DYK. I happened to have stated this position to Gatoclass, both on the DYK talk and on his talk page (cited, oddly, by Gatoclass). If I had wanted to deceive him about my position, I probably would have said something - anything - to him that was actually inconsistent with my position. I did not.

Gatoclass's notion that I deceived him also seems to rely on the fairly solipsistic assumption that his opinion is what decided whether the article would go to DYK. Since I don't and did not share this assumption, I had no reason to care an awful lot about his opinion, and thus no reason to try and change it through deception. In fact, seeing at the time that he was the only editor to object to the article's promotion (after I had responded to concerns by other editors), I thought that an article would not ultimately be denied DYK because of a single editor objecting. But I was frustrated that the discussion had been dragging on for so long because of it, so when Gatoclass came around, I happily reported it on the talk page. The idea that I was negotiating in bad faith by making treacherous concessions seems very odd to me, for the simple reason that we were never negotiating and so I made no concessions.

Next there are the edits that I made countering some of Gatoclass's changes to Civilian casualty ratio. There are so many falsehoods and half truths here that I'm going to have to move to bullet points.

• He allowed me to sweat over his article for more than a week in trying to bring it up to scratch, with not a single complaint... Wrong, I did complain on the DYK talk page (diff provided above), and so did others, both on the DYK talk page and on the article's talk page.
• ...assured me at the end of the process that he had "no objections to the article in its current form". This is a misleading fragment of what I said. The complete sentence was: "I have no objections to the article in its current form that exceed the usual disagreements between editors." What I actually said was an accurate description of my position.
• I took this statement, along with his failure to raise any concerns over the previous nine days, as confirmation that he had no substantial concerns about my edits, Again, I did raise substantial concerns, including the specific concern that another editor was correct in characterizing some of his edits as WP:SYNTH (above diff from DYK talk). Even if I hadn't, I don't see how Gatoclass's inference would have been justified.
• and on that basis, I withdrew my objection to its promotion at DYK, in spite of the fact that I was still very dissatisfied with the article. Baffling. Why is the question of whether I had any substantial concerns over his edits a reason to withdraw his objection to DYK? If he was "still very dissatisfied with the article" he could have continued to object. What does he want from me?
• To my astonishment, I found that in a series of edits, Jalapenos with a little help from Mbz... There seems to be an insinuation here that I acted in coordination with Mbz. I did not. Mbz was simply one of the other editors who objected to Gatoclass's changes.
• ...had reverted almost all my edits pertaining to Israel in the article, essentially restoring in its entirety the original version to which I (and a number of other users) had strenuously objected 9 days before. I didn't essentially restore in its entirety the original version. Many of Gatoclass's changes were good (i.e. they added relevant, sourced material), and I left them untouched. Perhaps I reverted "almost all" of his edits pertaining to Israel. I made a lot of changes, and I wasn't interested in what country the edits pertained to; I was interested in whether they were policy compliant or not.
• Once again, Jalapenos left his series of edits to the very last moment, only beginning them a few minutes after the article appeared on the mainpage, leaving the least possible time for those edits to be challenged. Looking at the records, this appears to be false. I see that I made a series of changes slightly after midnight on 14 December, and that the article appeared on DYK at 06:00 that day (Misplaced Pages:Recent_additions#14_December_2010). My knowledge about the DYK process is shaky, but if my motivation were to keep the edits from being challenged before the article appeared on DYK, wouldn't it have been the worst timing to edit six hours before it went to DYK, when there would have been the most attention on it and more than sufficient time to change the edits? The reason I didn't make the edits earlier was because I carefully looked at all of Gatoclass's changes only on 12 December, after he told me that he was "pretty much all done" . On 13 December I was busy and didn't edit any articles. On 14 December I sat down for a Wiki session and saw a template on my talk page that the article was going to be on DYK. I vaguely remember that when I sat down I intended to edit other articles and procrastinate on this one, and I was spurred to prioritize it by the pride of seeing the template. If my memory is correct, there was an indirect connection between the DYK timing and the timing of my edits, but I don't see anything improper about the connection.
• To list just some of his reverts... Indeed, some. The selection and the inaccurate comments about the talk page seem to be an attempt to portray the situation as if I was the only person who had a problem with his edits. Boy, was this ever not the case. Not only did other editors object to his edits, but Gatoclass was clearly aware of this because he actually tried to stall the DYK process because of another editor's objections to his edits. I'm going to repeat that because it's just so unbelievable. Gatoclass unilaterally made a series of edits to the article up for DYK. Another editor immediately objected to some of the edits. Gatoclass tried to stall the DYK process by saying that the objections to his own recent edits constituted a "dispute" that had to be resolved. A few days later, he tries to portray my objections as idiosyncratic and against consensus.
• Jalapenos knew that all this content was contested But only by Gatoclass.
• but restored it all anyway, 15 minutes after the article appeared on the main page. Again, this appears to be false.

His final point is that I've authored articles that have been nominated for AfD. First, a couple of minor corrections: I am not the author of Latma TV, and I requested deletion myself for Claims of Israeli organ harvesting in Haiti. More to the point: yes, I've done a lot of things on Misplaced Pages, and authored many articles. Some of my articles, especially among the ones that actually are about the Arab-Israeli conflict, have been nominated for AfD. (Gatoclass didn't list them all. I don't know what criteria his selection is based on.) Those who have had shared the misfortune of editing in this area know that pretty much every article is nominated for AfD at some point. I'm proud of the fact that the community consensus on most of those articles was that they should be kept.

After reading the accusation again and again, I can't escape the feeling that Gatoclass is making it with unclean hands. He is accusing me of violating ARBIA sanctions. Why did he omit the fact that he is the (only) one who said that the relevant articles should be under ARBPIA sanctions, and that he did so after the edits for which he accuses me? This fact is, after all, clearly important to understanding the accusation, and he must have been aware of it. For that matter, why did he place the tags after I made the edits for which he's accusing me, when he was involved in both articles and was clearly aware of their nature before I made those edits ( and see history)? Finally, why did he immediately run here without so much as telling me that he thought my edits were improper? After all, we had recently interacted in a collegial way. And since he clearly did a lot of research on me before making this complaint, he must have seen that I've received compliments and barnstars for my work from editors with diverse POVs (the barnstars are displayed on my user page). If an editor is in good standing, wouldn't it make sense to at least talk to him before filing a formal complaint?

Jeepers, that took a long time. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 01:46, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by EdChem

I was the editor who approved the DYK nomination and hook. I did so having previously expressed severe reservations about the article and its content. When I approved the hook, I checked to see that the material in the article that concerned me had been brought into compliance with policy. I congratulated Gatoclass on his work and also added a DYKmake credit for him, in recognition of the work he describes above. I would not have approved the nomination with the article changes that were subsequently made in place, and I consider the actions of Jalapenos do exist to be very poor editing behaviour. EdChem (talk) 11:03, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Follow Up, having read Jalapenos do exist's (JDE's) post, and having thought further...

• I am not sure that this is the right place for dealing with the issues raised by JDE's actions – as in, whether ARBPIA provides the most apposite framework – but I am sure his actions call for a response.
• I dispute JDE's claim that only Gatoclass raised objections. In this post at T:TDYK on the nomination of the civilian casualty ratio article, I noted that there were three dispute tags, on the page. I now know that they were added by Gatoclass, and were removed shortly after by JDE, but was not so aware when I posted my comment. However, my edit summary ("with three dispute tags (justified ones), not a chance this is going to get cleaned up in time") makes it perfectly clear that I was not just taking the presence of the tags as evidence of neutrality problems, but I had independently formed the view they were appropriate tags. As for timing, the nomination was already 13 days old at the time, hence my view that the problems would not be addressed quickly enough for DYK.
• The AfD contains plenty of comments indicating concerns about POV, separate from those expressed by Gatoclass.
• From my perspective, the article had two major flaws. The first was that it was not global in its coverage, devoting something more than half the article to Israeli / Palestinian / Middle Eastern issues. The second was that its presentation of Israeli material (especially) was not neutral. Gatoclass' changes addressed both of these problems, and the reversion / changes JDE made after the DYK nomination was approved left the new globalised content in place but reversed most of the Israeli coverage to restore the highly POV perspective.
• When I approved the hook and article I explicitly approved the neutral hook ALT1, credited for his Gatoclass contributions and I indicated that my earlier concerns had been addressed ("I am now satisfied with the article"). To be 2000% clear, I would not have approved the version with the changes JDE made subsequently, and whether or not his actions are sanctionable here they certainly warrant discussion at DYK. Nominating a POV article for DYK, allowing the neutrality to be fixed enough for the nomination to be approved, then re-adding the POV for main page exposure is unacceptable behaviour. No matter what else, JDE has seriously damaged the extent to which I will be willing to AGF on any future DYK nominations of his with POV problems. DYK has been criticised recently for material which we have allowed to reach the main page, and in some cases justifiably. Gaming the system to try to put POV material onto the main page is a serious matter and DYK has a serious issue to address irrespective of what is decided here.
• This diff compares the last version from Gatoclass with the present JDE version (nearly 24 hours and 25 edits later). I contend that it demonstrates the POV being added. Note particularly that very similar comments from Dershowitz appear in the lede and twice in the text, and his name appears 5 times in the text in JDE's version. The section Israeli air strikes in the Gaza Strip appears to entirely omit any Palestinian perspective; I have the suspicion that the Palestian view of the Israeli Defence Forces is less rosy.
• I regret that I did not say more at T:TDYK to make explicit that I agreed with Gatoclass' concerns about the article, and those expressed in the AfD, and I was awaiting the progress he was making. I did not comment when the dispute tags were removed because I thought it would just provoke disagreements, and I felt whether the tags were on the article or not, the DYK nomination would still not pass without problems being addressed.
• To address a couple of other concerns:
  • No, I have not been canvassed in any way either about the DYK nomination or this AE thread.
  • No, I am not anti-Israeli... one of the only other DYK noms I have !voted be disallowed was this post about the Jewish lawyer article... I considered the proposed hook / nomination to be "gratuitously offensive", and I even raised the article in a post to Jimbo.

EdChem (talk) 08:24, 16 December 2010 (UTC) copy edited EdChem (talk) 13:59, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Jalapenos do exist

I was involved with the World Conference against Racism 2001 and Durban III articles and the AfD and DYK nominations of the civilian casualties articles and endorse Gatoclass' account of Jalapenos do exist's conduct in relation to these articles. My proposal to add some balance to the Durban III article by including a mention that the references quoted in the article had stated that most UN members had voted in favour of the conference being held were dismissed by Jalapenos do exist as part of me "being silly": . I walked away from this article as I've got no interest in being involved in the Arab-Israeli edit wars. Nick-D (talk) 11:10, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

I too have worked on articles that JDE has submitted for inclusion at DYK as well as elsewhere. I also endorse Gatoclass' report and would like to also point out this edit made to exploding animal which was extremely POV and unsourced and which they were happier to edit war over than discuss (see their talk and the article history). The changes made to the CCR article, partcularly reinserting the comments by Alan Dershowitz, whilst on the main page represent an unbelievable gaming of the system. SmartSE (talk) 11:15, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Brewcrewer

Gatoclass says: essentially restoring in its entirety the original version to which I (and a number of other users) had strenuously objected 9 days before. This does not appear to be true. JDE's final edits to the article appear to have included many of Gatoclass's substantial edits. See the difference in nine days of Gatoclass's and JDE's latest edits.

Also JDE's comment "I have no objections to the article in its current form that exceed the usual disagreements between editors", gave a greater indication that he was unsatisfied rather then satisfied with all of Gatoclass's changes to the article. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 14:33, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Unomi

Re Jalapenos and Civilian_casualty_ratio

Leadup

03 December AfD concludes, noting that there was not a strong consensus for keep.
There are a large number of editors raising concerns regarding npov specifically regarding the presentation of Israel, both at the AfD and at DYK.

According to the DYK thread:

17:39, 12 December 2010 (UTC) Jalapenos states: "Let's do this. After making his own changes to the article, Gatoclass has told me that he thinks it should be promoted. So do I. Jalapenos do exist (talk) 17:39, 12 December 2010 (UTC)", at that point the article looks like this.

19:58, 12 December 2010 (UTC) Mbz1 states: "I see no problems with the article. It should be promoted.--Mbz1 (talk) 19:58, 12 December 2010 (UTC)"

It would almost be ABF to not understand that as Mbz1 and Jalapenos considering it in a state where it can be considered stable. No tags are added, no concerns seem raised on the article talk page at or around that time.

10:45, 13 December 2010 User:EdChem accepts the article on behalf of DYK stating: "I am now satisfied with the article and with ALT1 about the international red cross. I have also added a DYKmake for Gatoclass, who has made a substantial contribution to the article. EdChem (talk) 10:45, 13 December 2010 (UTC)".

At that point the article looks like this.

The diff between the state of when Jalapenos intimated consent and EdChem granted DYK is negligible

Thoughts on Jalapenos Comments

Jalapenos seems to plead ignorance on the requirement that articles to be shown on the frontpage are relatively stable and uncontested, this seems an unlikely condition as he, at the very least, must have read "The article has three dispute tags, and the DYK rules disallow any dispute tags in articles going to the main page. EdChem (talk) 11:16, 5 December 2010 (UTC)" on the DYK thread, reinserting information that he knew was contested prior to a discussion that settled the matter would certainly achieve that.

Jalapenos writes above "Again, I did raise substantial concerns, including the specific concern that another editor was correct in characterizing some of his edits as WP:SYNTH", but submits only:
16:05, 8 December 2010 (UTC) "I don't see any "holdup" or a new user objecting to any content. I see PBS objecting to section headings recently added by you. I tend to agree with his assessment that your additions are WP:SYNTH, but it's only section headings, no big deal. Jalapenos do exist (talk)".
Note that the synth was regarding whether to characterize some of them as conventional vs asymmetric.

At which point the article looks like this
and
17:35, 12 December 2010 (UTC) "I have no objections to the article in its current form that exceed the usual disagreements between editors. I think it should go to DYK. Jalapenos do exist (talk)", as mentioned above.

At no point in this period is "Professor Alan Dershowitz of Harward Law School" in the article, much less the lede, no additional content has been offered for discussion, none have been boldly edited in. Not a single comment regarding specific issues that Jalapenos, or Mbz1 wanted addressed seems to have been forwarded. The substantial concerns seem to have been the no big deal headings.

Yet, 8 days after the Dershowitz section was removed Jalapenos reinserts it verbatim, minutes after the article is on the frontpage. Note that Jalapenos did not argue against Carwils objection to Dershowitz at the AfD, he did not contest the removal by Gatoclass nor the specific issues that spurred it. The same goes for the remaining edits that are plain to see from the recent edit history, I see no point to analyze them individually other than to say that they do in fact support Jalapenos statement of "Perhaps I reverted "almost all" of his edits pertaining to Israel." - all content related changes were to Israeli related sections, and the majority went directly against concerns raised at AfD and DYK, as well as the talk page itself. un☯mi 08:54, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Comment re proposed remedy

I find it welcome that new options for remedies are explored, I do think that it will leave the parties that felt directly wronged in this unsatisfied, I know I would ;) Nonetheless, it will be interesting to see how it ends, so how can I not support it. Welcome to the ARBPIA grind Tznkai. un☯mi 19:12, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Comment re what could be a better remedy

The proposed one. Have a look at the state of the article when it was mainspaced. Compare that to the current, which was the state that it was in when it was on the frontpage, the material relating to Israel is nearly identical, terrorists has become millitants, at least in some cases, and the lede has become slightly more fluffed, that is *all*. None of the issues raised at the AfD, were addressed, at least not long enough that it mattered for the 1.8k viewers that now might be led to believe that this is the standard to which we hold ourselves. If we really think that this is a Hanlons razor issue, we should likely issue a topic ban out of sheer WP:COMPETENCE concerns. If on the other hand we accept that the user had no intentions of letting other people influence the parts of the article that they were concerned with, and that they also did it solely for the purpose of maximizing exposure, (as he would know they would be reverted when discovered) then where are we at? un☯mi 20:47, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Comment Re EdJohnston writing

"This article was created by Jalapenos, but I wonder how it became his duty to fix all the perceived problems before it could become a DYK."

The DYK process concerns both the hook, but also the article as it will have maximum exposure on behalf of wikipedia. It was not Jalapenos responsibility to fix them, it was not anyones responsibility, but as shown here, if the issues were not fixed then it would simply not be suitable for displaying on the main page, by consensus of the editors there as noted by Schwede66. Gatoclass took it upon himself to fix the issues, and the editors involved seemed to agree that there were no outstanding issues, including mbz1 and Jalapenos, so it was approved by EdChem. 14 minutes after the article has gained maximum exposure, Jalapenos starts editing it away from the consensus version, and after 26 minutes of being on the front page all the Israeli related contested elements are restored. un☯mi 11:28, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Sol

In regard to the below question of actual damages, I think the idea is that editors agreed to the removal of the POV material only to side-step administrative procedure and quickly re-inserted it after the article was put on the main page which, if that's the case, would be blatant gamesmanship. Regardless of how it happened, WP ended up featuring an article with a healthy serving of POV-pushing. Whoops. Sol (talk) 06:41, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by BorisG

When I read Gatoclass's statement, I thought it was a serious attempt to game the system, but upon reading JDE's defence, I see this is not so at all. The whole thing is very confusing (with walls of text from both sides), but it seems that Gatoclass has deliberately misquoted JDE at least on one occasion. If that happenned, then he may not be with clean hands. Not to mention that there is nothing wrong with writing articles that are later deleted upon consensus. I think there is no obvious case against JDE.

Statement by Cptnono

I can see how gaming could be interpreted from the actions of both editors. Not sure what (if anything) should be done about Gatoclass but this being the second time DYKs in the topic area have brought criticism of him here, Sandstein might have had the right idea if he was being a little wary. Removing him from DYK or topic baning him would not be beneficial to the project but restrictions on his work (not talk page use) on DYKs in the topic areas might be something to consider. Not sure if that is even warranted but there were some concerns raised that appear to be partially valid.

In response to Tznkai's suggestion, AGF could show that JDE was not gaming the system but AGF can only go so far. You are correct that the insertion of material after multiple objections was a problem even if it wasn't gaming. Since multiple reverts can be a bad thing, as NW brings up, it could be simplest to make it a 1rr/48hr while editing DYKs in the topic area. It will be easy enough to tell if he is gaming if he pops in a minute after two days have elapsed.Cptnono (talk) 21:00, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Follow-up: And if Gatoclass is going to be an uninolved admin sometimes but not another as seen on this page then there is a problem that touches on this whole gaming issue. Cptnono (talk) 21:20, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Epeefleche

First of all, this does not seem to be the correct forum for this complaint. Secondly, having parsed through this great deal of material, I don't see an actionable violation. I am also concerned with the misquoting of what J actually said, but would simply caution that editor to be more precise in the future.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:02, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning Jalapenos do exist

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

Question. What exactly is the harm complained of here? I've looked at the evidence, and I'm still confused. The diffs paint the picture that Jalapenos do exist (from now on "Jalapenos") has some sort of editorial "take" on the Israel/Palestine conflict, which while moderately annoying, is a content disagreement and thus generally dealt with outside of AE until it gets too bad. The part I'm not understanding is the involvement of DYK. Is the argument basically that Jalapenos waited for the article to be linked from the main page and then started editing with his/her editorial take?--Tznkai (talk) 22:21, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Mbz1, in case you didn't know me, and there is no reason you should, I take a very dim view of editors who come in swinging casting wild aspersions and insults at other editors. Stick to the facts, please.

Similarly, I don't need a blow by blow of past case history either Unomi, and if I'm interested I can review the logs myself.

Jalepenos, "broadly interpreted", which the Area of Conflict provision is, can include articles which discuss at length the Arab-Israeli conflict. The most useful construction I've discovered is to focus on edits that focus on the Arab-Israeli conflict. In this case the edits complained about focused on your edits - additions and removals that have to do with the Arab Israeli conflict.

Still reviewing evidence, but still waiting to see why this is within AE's jurisdiction. I'll be back to review in 13 hours, and I'd take it as a personal favor if you could keep any comments concise. (Other administrators can of course, as always, may have something to say as well).--Tznkai (talk) 05:00, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Upon careful review, the sections from Unomi and Mbz1 are both irrelevant to the topic at hand, and they should be removed. (You are, as always, free to open up a new complaint with all the risks that entails) Alternatively, if their authors insist on making me read through their bickering as I continue my due diligence, I will evaluate whether either of them should be prevented from treating Misplaced Pages as a battleground.--Tznkai (talk) 05:34, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

With those concerns in mind, my review of the evidence suggests that User:Jalapenos do exist has a topical focus on the Arab-Israeli conflict, specifically the portrayal of Israel, and that this topical focus, combined with admiral energy for editing, threatens to transfer emotions and difficulties from the "deep-seated and long standing real world conflicts" surrounding the Arab-Israeli conflict (broadly understood) and destabilize the editing environment. I am not here speculating on intent or motive, but making an empirical judgment on effect. There not however, enough evidence to suggest a malicious attempt to subvert the process, and the application of the assumption of good faith and Hanlon's razor and simple responsible judgment demands I do not speculate that far.

At this very moment however, the Alan Dershowitz quote is the lead of the article, because Jalepenos do exist added it after the DYK hook was approved. Regardless to the timing relative to the DYK hook, in the DYK discussion four separate users directly brought up the quote's bias problem: Schwede66, Volunteer Marek, Nick-D, and Gatoclass. This suggests a critical failure on Jalapenos do exist's part to conform to the basic rule of a collaborative editing environment. Seek compromise instead of editing roughshod over opposition.

It is therefor my intention, as a discretionary sanction, to bar Jalapenos do exist from the repeat insertion or removal of any text concerning Israel, Palestine, or the Arab-Israeli conflict, on any article page, whether by simple reversion, or in essence, disputed by any 3 users in an on wiki forum, with the usual caveats for clear vandalism and BLP violations. Jalapenos do exist is not only allowed, but encouraged to seek compromise language on talk pages. Users abusing gaming this restriction will be blocked. Jalapenos is encouraged to seek review of this restriction every 14 days in this forum, to display successful compromise, and/or activity in other topic areas and/or other factors indicating the restriction is not needed. Any uninvolved administrator in good standing is encouraged to conduct this review.

I encourage any and all interested editors to briefly and concisely comment.--Tznkai (talk) 18:53, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Three editors have to oppose him before he stops? It is bad practice to continue editing if even one person opposes your edits; broader consensus should be sought at that point. I'm not a huge fan of this particular sanction, though I agree that one is probably necessary. I'm not really sure what type of sanction would be best though. NW (Talk) 19:19, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Well, thats a fair point, but considering the wording of the restriction precludes Jalapenos from reverting the material for the life time of the restriction, I'm very concerned about letting a smaller group game the system. If you have even the vaguest semblance of an idea I'd love to hear it.--Tznkai (talk) 20:24, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm just thinking aloud, but what about having your sanction that for normal articles and demanding that J. get an opinion on IPCOLL if he wants to make an addition to a main page article. NW (Talk) 22:10, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

That sounds workable. Jalapenos would need to offer his proposed change for discussion at WP:IPCOLL or WT:DYK at least three hours before making it, if it is a change to a DYK which is either currently on the main page or less then three hours before it is due to appear. The spirit of this rule is that he would need to express any major concerns with the wording of a DYK during the normal discussion period and not spring them at the last minute. This restriction would not apply to reverting vandalism or to minor spelling/grammar fixes. EdJohnston (talk) 23:13, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Here are the article links for one of the discussed articles:

• Civilian casualty ratio (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Having dug into the evidence, I'm no longer convinced that this enforcement request shows a violation of WP:ARBPIA. Someone with more patience than I (perhaps Tznkai?) might be able to get to the bottom of this, but the Durban III business I no longer see as persuasive. The people at WP:Articles for deletion/Civilian casualty ratio did express a lot of ideas on how the article could be improved. This article was created by Jalapenos, but I wonder how it became his duty to fix all the perceived problems before it could become a DYK. The actual DYK hook was "... that according to a study by the International Committee of the Red Cross, the civilian casualty ratio in wars fought since the mid-20th century has been 10 civilian deaths for every soldier death?" That hook sounds innocuous and does not have an obvious POV. Also the articles wasn't tagged for ARBPIA until later on in the process. It was created by Jalapenos on 23 November and it's been worked on by 22 different editors since that moment. In the history I notice the names of editors from both sides of the I/P conflict. Since Jalapenos created it, it is understandable he might want to take the article to DYK. He has made 41 edits to the article and Gatoclass has made 69. I did notice this removal by Jalapenos on 14 December of a sentence added by Mbz1: "Israel's conduct of the war, particularly its bombardment of Beirut, was heavily criticized, not only by the international community but in Israel itself, where large antiwar protests took place.". Jalapenos edit summary was "General povs regarding actions are outside the purview of this article." That seems logical to me, given the topic.

It is not obvious to me that the data presented here by Gatoclass show misbehavior by Jalapenos that needs to be sanctioned under ARBPIA. I might change my view if somebody can capture in a very small set of diffs exactly what the misbehavior was. If there was actually a violation, it should not take many hundreds of words to explain it. EdJohnston (talk) 05:35, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

The diff you mention is a good example: here Jalapenos removes a description of criticism of Israel because "General povs regarding actions are outside the purview of this article." Twelve minutes later, he adds Dershowitz's claim to the lead. So in the space of 12 minutes, "general povs regarding actions" are suddenly not only appropriate for the article, but belong in the lead. This user's editorial rationales seem rather flexible, depending on whether the material in question reflects positively or negatively on Israel. That's as good an illustration of agenda-driven editing as any, compounded since, as Tznkai has identified, Jalapenos is a single-purpose account. Whether the ARBPIA sanctions can, or should, come into play here is a question I'll leave to my fellow admins. MastCell  06:54, 17 December 2010 (UTC)