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• WP:AE

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Important informationShortcuts WP:AE WP:ARE Please use this page only to: request administrative action against editors violating a remedy (not merely a principle) or an injunction in an Arbitration Committee decision, or a contentious topic restriction imposed by an administrator, request contentious topic restrictions against previously alerted editors who engage in misconduct in a topic area designated as a contentious topic, request page restrictions (e.g. revert restrictions) on pages that are being disrupted in topic areas designated as contentious topics, or appeal arbitration enforcement actions (including contentious topic restrictions) to uninvolved administrators. For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. 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Jalapenos do exist

Gilabrand

Per Honor et Gloria

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Per Honor et Gloria

User requesting enforcement

Elonka 01:42, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Per Honor et Gloria (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/PHG#PHG's topic ban is narrowed and extended

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. User:Per Honor et Gloria/Sandbox/Mongol occupation of Gaza (1260) - Article in userspace created in violation of topic ban
2. User:Per Honor et Gloria/Sandbox/Mongol occupation of Gaza (1299-1300) - Article in userspace created in violation of topic ban
3. User:Per Honor et Gloria/Sandbox/Mongol occupation of Jerusalem - Article in userspace created in violation of topic ban
4. User:Per Honor et Gloria/Sandbox/Siege of Aleppo (1299) - Article in userspace created in violation of topic ban
5. User:Per Honor et Gloria/Sandbox/Siege of Damascus (1299) - Article in userspace created in violation of topic ban

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

1. Warning by Elonka (talk · contribs)

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

The subpages should be deleted, and PHG cautioned to not use his userspace in an attempt to get around the topic ban

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Per Honor et Gloria (PHG) is a fine editor in many areas of the project, and has many articles to his credit. Unfortunately though, in the topic area of Mongol history, he has been pushing a POV for years now, cherry-picking sources, and in some cases just flat-out misrepresenting what sources say. Multiple arbitration cases and motions have resulted, with the most recent one in November 2010, extending PHG's topic ban indefinitely: " is prohibited from editing articles relating to the Mongol Empire, the Crusades, intersections between Crusader states and the Mongol Empire, all broadly defined. He is permitted to make suggestions on talk pages, provided that he interacts with other editors in a civil fashion." Unfortunately, PHG is not respecting his topic ban, and has been creating articles in his userspace which continue to push the same POVs. Note: As a caution to those not familiar with the subject matter, PHG's biased articles often look well-sourced, but this is an illusion. For a clear and simple example of the problem, note his subpages "Mongol occupation of Jerusalem", and "Mongol occupation of Gaza". Even the simplest Google search on those terms will show that these terms are absolutely not common nor in any way a representation of mainstream historical consensus. In fact, the majority of Google links point only to PHG's userspace and PHG-created images. I have asked PHG to please respect his topic ban, and delete the articles from his userspace, but he has refused. I am therefore requesting arbitration enforcement. The subpages should be deleted, and PHG either warned or blocked for violating the terms of the topic ban. Thanks, --Elonka 01:42, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

(reply to EdJohnston) I understand what you are saying about using noindex, but that only addresses part of the problem. PHG is not just maintaining the information for talkpage discussion, but also because he intends to persuade other editors to create the articles for him. This already happened with Mongol elements in Western medieval art. PHG created it in his userspace, started an RfC on it, got a few editors to agree that it was worth an article, and then one of them created the article for him. I disagreed that it was worth an entire article, especially because the vast majority of the information came from one source by one author, Rosalind Mack. I didn't make a big fuss about it at the time because it's not an egregious example, but he is clearly intending to follow the same process with the other articles in his userspace, which are much bigger problems. He should abide by the spirit of the topic ban, which was intended not to punish, but to protect the project, and protect the time of other editors so they don't have to keep dealing with PHG's POV-pushing. PHG has already wasted far too much community time, and he just won't let go of this "Mongols conquering Jerusalem" POV. This has been going on since 2007, required hundreds of hours of work from many editors to document what he was doing, and even more work to cleanup the dozens of articles where he had inserted POV information. The arbitration cases themselves were especially complex, because of the way that PHG edits. His articles look well-sourced, even when they are not. So if he tries to push his "Mongol occupation of Jerusalem" article via an RfC, then editors who don't look deeply into the sources are probably going to say, "Looks fine," and it is again going to require the time of Mongol-literate editors such as myself to patiently explain to outside participants that no, just because PHG has a paragraph with 10 sources, does not mean that the paragraph in any way represents mainstream historical consensus. It was my hope that with the indefinite topic ban in place, that this process would stop, and that I and others wouldn't keep having to spend time explaining why PHG's editing was problematic. What I would prefer is that the topic ban be exactly what was intended: A ban from editing in the topic area, which includes a ban on him continuing to create articles about the exact same topic in his userspace. We have to draw a line in the sand. --Elonka 07:02, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

(notified)

Discussion concerning Per Honor et Gloria

I think this clearly goes against the intent of the remedies in the case. Working on articles in the topic area is forbidden; doing so in his userspace is no different than creating them in main space and continues the problems that caused the topic ban. Shell 01:58, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Isn't that one of the things that got WMC in continued hot water after the close of the CC case? If notification of problems is unacceptable, certainly drafting versions is as well. ++Lar: t/c 04:52, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes it was. In this case though the bigger concern is that he didn't just draft articles - he's actively asking editors to proxy them into mainspace for him to circumvent his ban. (And someone who likely didn't know about the ban has already done this once for him ) Shell 10:33, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Statement by Per Honor et Gloria

Comments by others about the request concerning Per Honor et Gloria

• Comment by Mathsci The article User:Per Honor et Gloria/Sandbox/Mongol occupation of Jerusalem is a flagrant violation of PHG's topic ban, since this article involves precisely the subject matter of the "Franco-Mongol relations" ArbCom case, a French crusader topic where I have assisted Elonka over the years. The issues of WP:OR and WP:SYNTH and the misuse of primary sources have recurred in PHG's editing, e.g. in Franco-Siamese War, Assassination of Inspector Grosgurin, Auguste Pavie and more recently Greeks in pre-Roman Gaul. There the section on Μασσαλία was partially rewritten and re-sourced by me in February 2010. PHG subsequently added a map concerning "colonies of Marseilles" that he seems to have created using an alternative account at commons. It has no basis in fact whatsoever: there appear to be no secondary sources mentioning colonies of Marseille. The roughly contemporary Phocean colony of Εμπόριον in Catalonia is marked as a colony of Μασσαλία on the map: I edited the article on Empúries in 2008 to remove an inaccuracy about Phocea ; PHG made his own characteristic additions, the picture of a coin and a misleading link, in 2009. PHG often includes his own conjectures about cross-cultural issues in wikipedia articles, even though they are often not supported by secondary sources. His resourcefulness at finding or producing images, particularly of coins or canonry, is extremely impressive and shows real enthusiam; often these evocative images, as in Auguste Pavie#Gallery, create immense pleasure for the reader. However, sometimes his own personal theories seem to take precedence over the reliability of this encyclopedia, particularly in history articles, ancient, medieval or modern. Mathsci (talk) 11:55, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
• Not counting any ArbCom remedy, isn't keeping POV forks of articles in userspace against policy in itself? — Coren  14:19, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning Per Honor et Gloria

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

I think in somewhat similar lines with Shell; while clever enough not to breach the topic ban, it is pushing right up against the limits of it. All that said, and I know this is the third time in five days I've said this and folks are sick of it, ArbCom decisions have to be read narrowly. "Accordingly, this user is prohibited from editing articles relating to the Mongol Empire, the Crusades, intersections between Crusader states and the Mongol Empire, all broadly defined." These userpages aren't technically "articles". I also note that the Committee has worded PHeG's topic ban differently than others, for example in the Climate Change case, where they prohibited "(i) editing articles about Climate Change broadly construed and their talk pages; (ii) editing biographies of living people associated with Climate Change broadly construed and their talk pages; (iii) participating in any process broadly construed on Misplaced Pages particularly affecting these articles; and (iv) initiating or participating in any discussion substantially relating to these articles anywhere on Misplaced Pages, even if the discussion also involves another issue or issues." That is clearly a much broader topic ban than PHeG is subject to. This matter could almost go back to the Committee for another clarification. Courcelles 02:27, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

I think, here, being clever enough not to breach a topic ban = a breach of the topic ban. I think we can act to stop obvious gaming of a restriction without needing to go to Arbcom for clarification. In any case, this breach is arguable even on the words of the restriction. They're articles. Just not in mainspace. At the least, all pages should be deleted under G5. --Mkativerata (talk) 02:42, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

• Since the remedy at issue here explicitly permits commenting on talk pages, this topic ban is not clearly a remedy intended to force complete disengagement, unlike in the CC case. I agree with Courcelles, and think it best to ask for clarification here. T. Canens (talk) 05:34, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
• Noindex should be used. PHG wants to keep material for purposes of talk page discussion in user sub-pages. But his User:Per Honor et Gloria/Sandbox/Siege of Aleppo (1299) is currently found in Google searches as the #2 hit for 'siege of aleppo'. He should be required to add {{noindex}} at the head of all these pages. (Geo Swan did this for his working pages on Guantanamo prisoners, as well as {{userspace draft}}, which in my opinion complies with all policies). If PHG declines to mark these pages with 'noindex' and 'userspace draft', then their protection from the ban will go away and they should be deleted under the Arbcom ruling per G5, as argued by Mkativerata. EdJohnston (talk) 06:37, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Well, if that were what he was using them for, that could be reasonable. If you read PHG's response and see how we got here though, PHG believes it is appropriate to use his ability to edit the talk pages of articles in his topic ban to ask other editors to proxy these articles into mainspace for him. This tactic has worked once already (which is how I was alerted to these articles in his userspace) - see Talk:Franco-Mongol_alliance#RfC:_Mongol_influences_in_European_art and . Shell 10:31, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

• Per Elonka, Coren and Shell, I can see we might interpret the ban as preventing the creation of any separate pages in any space, but still allowing PHG to contribute on talk. On this view we would proceed to a G5 directly. The user space drafts could indeed be seen as the kind of POV-forks which are routinely cleaned out by normal MfD activities all the time. Since Arbcom has already ruled in this area, MfD doesn't seem necessary for these; we can proceed with their deletion. EdJohnston (talk) 18:11, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

• I agree with EdJohnston, et al here. Contributions and drafts are allowed. Userspace POV forks and dancing around the normal consensus process are not. Deletion. Firm warning to color inside the lines. Extend ban to all related discussions if further problems arise. Vassyana (talk) 02:25, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

• Fine with me. It would be on more solid ground if we are working with a formal conduct probation instead of an intentionally loose topic ban, but we have to take what we got from arbcom. T. Canens (talk) 08:27, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

• No set of rules can protect against every possible type of gaming. Creating content forks in userspace and then recruiting unsuspecting proxies to move them into article space is a violation of WP:GAME and WP:POINT. The obvious best thing for Misplaced Pages is to deleted these pages. Note: I initiated the original arbitration case, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Franco-Mongol alliance. If there are any further disruptions like this from PHG, I recommend applying WP:TURNIP in the form of a siteban. The beneficial contributions from PHG are not worth the massive disruption and waste of volunteer effort required to constantly monitor, counteract gaming attempts, and clean up the messes being created. Jehochman 16:09, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Request concerning Nableezy

User requesting enforcement

mbz1 --Mbz1 (talk) 20:14, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Nableezy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

Edit warring on Egypt. Article Egypt is connected to Israeli Arab conflict. Please also see battleground behavior and the threat to wikihound me. This message was left at my talk page after I questioned the removal of the information on the article's talk page. Here the user is discussing in details Damour massacre. The Damour Massacre directly relates to the I-P topic area. It was an incident that involved Israel's allies, the Christian Falange and her enemies, the PLO. Moreover, the article is part of "Wiki project Palestine" as evidenced by the article's talk page, where this message is prominently displayed as the first message. It is difficult to miss.

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Nableezy#Topic_ban

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

Admin can decide.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

notified

Discussion concerning Nableezy

Statement by Nableezy

The topics I discussed at ANI have nothing whatsoever to do with the Arab-Israeli topic area. Mbz1 should be sanctioned for tendentious hounding of my contributions. The topic of discussion at AN/I was Lanternix's editing on topics about internal Arab conflicts and the identification of Egyptians as Arabs. Not with anything related to Israel. Mbz1's hounding of my contributions led her to both involve herself in a topic that she knows nothing about as well as file this report. Israel was not at all involved in the Damour massacre, nor in the Karantina massacre. These are inter-Arab conflicts not related to the Arab-Israeli conflict area, in fact neither . The treatment of Copts in Egypt and by the Egyptian government has nothing to do with the Arab-Israeli conflict. Not everything that has something to do with the Palestinians, the Arabs, or the Middle East has something to do with the Arab-Israeli conflict.

Mbz1 claims that the "Article Egypt is connected to Israeli Arab conflict." and as such my edits to that article are covered by the topic ban. There are portions of that article related to the topic, yes, but it is asinine to claim that the entire article is part of that topic area. Israel has existed for about 0.8% of the 8,000 years that are covered in that article. Further, nothing that I touched had anything to do with Israel much less with the Arab-Israeli conflict.

Mbz1 further claims that the article Damour massacre "directly relates to the I-P topic area". This can only be said by somebody who had not even read the article. The word Israel appears once in the text of that article, and only that one time to say that "after the Israeli invasion of Lebanon" in the background section. This article is not in any way connected to the Arab-Israeli conflict. It was a confrontation between Lebanese and Palestinian Arabs that did not involve Israel. The argument offered here, that because Israel liked one side and didnt like the other is on its face ridiculous. That would prevent me from writing anything in the article Nelson Mandela because Israel had warm relations with the Apartheid South African government.

Finally, Mbz1 claims that I "threat to wikihound ". That was not a threat to wikihound you, it was a request that you not hound me. I should not have to deal with your nonsense outside of your usual stomping grounds. Following me around to annoy me even when I am not, or can not, contribute to the A/I topic area is not something that should be allowed.

To Tim, you request that I say why my AN/I filing was not a topic ban violation. Nothing that I reported had anything to do with Israel, which itself would cover more topics than are covered under the Arab-Israeli conflict topic area. I am not banned from writing about any thing that talks about Arabs or Palestinians. I am banned from writing about or discussing the Arab-Israeli conflict topic area, broadly construed. No matter how broad you wish to make the net, articles that dont have anything to do with Israel or Zionism cannot be said to fall under that ban. Yes, there is a part of the article about Egypt that talks about the wars Egypt has fought with Israel. But you want to say because of that the entire article is part of the topic area? That I cant edit portions on the Fatimid conquest of Egypt, or the French invasion, or even the demographics of the country or the climate? My understanding has always been that articles that are themselves part of the Arab-Israeli conflict topic area are as a whole off-limits, even those parts not dealing with the conflict, and articles that are outside of the topic area, but have portions that discuss it, are only off-limits for the material that discusses the conflict. The only two articles in the group that I discussed at AN/I that have portions related to the Arab-Israeli conflict topic area are Egypt and Arab Christians. I did not discuss any material that related to the conflict or even to Israel. The other article are wholly outside of the topic area. Also, as the header of this page says editors coming with unclean hands may be sanctioned, could I request that you take a closer look at Mbz1's involvement? I file an AN/I report dealing with articles that Mbz1 had never edited or as far as I know even commented about, and she involves herself in a dispute that I am in. She then further involves herself at the article talk page. Is it acceptable for editors with who a topic-banned editor had previously been in conflict with to follow that editor to other topics to annoy them? nableezy - 01:26, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

And while we are here, how about looking and seeing if Tie Oh Cruise (talk · contribs) look to you to be a rather obvious sockpuppet. nableezy - 01:41, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Vassyana, are you really saying that whether or not Gamal Abdel Nasser was an Arab is part of the Arab-Israeli conflict topic area? And yes, the edits by Lanternix there are tendentious bullshit. Nasser himself said he was an Arab, Lanternix wishes to deny him that identity. But none of that has anything to do with the Arab-Israeli topic area in any way. Please explain how it does. nableezy - 02:55, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

But I am not even editing material in the Nasser article. Do you agree that the article List of Arabs is not covered under the Arab-Israeli conflict topic area? If so, can you please explain how whether an entry on that list is or is not an Arab is related to the topic area? This doesnt have anything to do with Israel, this isnt even an inter-Arab issue. That specific dispute is an inter-Egyptian one, in which some Egyptians are rather insistent that Egyptians are not Arabs. This is a dispute completely unrelated to the A/I conflict. The reason I singled out Nasser in the edit summary is because Nasser has a somewhat famous line that "an Arab is someone whose mother tongue is Arabic", he regularly called himself an Arab. nableezy - 04:07, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

It is impossible to discuss him in any realistic manner without mentioning the A-I conflict. Really? Let's try:

Me: Is Nasser an Arab?

L:No!

Me: Yes, and here are some sources calling him an Arab

L: No!

nableezy - 14:26, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Nableezy

Statement by (not uninvolved) Mkativerata

It is said that "Article Egypt is connected to Israeli Arab conflict." How? The article is perhaps connected in a loose way, such that PIA-related edits on the article might be a breach of the topic ban. But these edits had nothing to do with PIA. The definition of the "area of conflict" in which Nableezy has been prohibited to edit is "the entire set of Arab-Israeli conflict-related articles, broadly interpreted." On no interpretation could the article Egypt or the edits in question be considered related to the Arab-Israeli conflict. --Mkativerata (talk) 20:37, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Well, at least in one instance the user has edited not a particular section, but an entire article and of course Egypt is connected to I/P conflict. For example the article states: "Three years after the 1967 Six Day War, during which Israel had invaded and occupied Sinai, Nasser died and was succeeded by Anwar Sadat." and "In 1973, Egypt, along with Syria, launched the October War, a surprise attack against the Israeli forces occupying the Sinai Peninsula and the Golan Heights. It was an attempt to regain part of the Sinai territory Israel had captured 6 years earlier.", In my understanding the article with such wording, if broadly interpreted, is related to to the Arab-Israeli conflict.--Mbz1 (talk) 21:10, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

@T. Canens, re the ANI diff: It is not at all clear to me that articles solely to do with the Lebanese Civil War (pre Israeli involvement), that have nothing to do with Israel apart from very tangential references, are within the ARBPIA area of conflict. --Mkativerata (talk) 22:36, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

• Info For example I was blocked for topic ban violation over this edit that has not a single word, not even a half word about Israel, Arabs, Palestine and was only about Misplaced Pages policies..--Mbz1 (talk) 22:48, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
• Info user:Gilabrand was blocked for her topic ban violation over this edit made at administrative noticeboard for edit warring. Please also note that in the same thread after Gila added her question (she got blocked for) Nableezy asked her "And why are you here? And arent you topic-banned?" that shows that Nableezy is well aware what broadly construed topic ban means --Mbz1 (talk) 23:49, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

@Vassyana: if there are concerns about incivility in respect of the Egypt-related articles, that can be dealt with by intervention outside AE. Or if there is concern that ARBPIA disputes are spilling over into Lebanon and Egypt, Arbcom could be asked to expand the definition of the "area of conflict" to include intra-national disputes in Egypt and Lebanon. But on the "area of conflict" as currently defined, there really is no relationship between (a) Nableezy's edits and the articles to which they related, and (b) the "area of conflict", which requires a connexion with Israel. I'd urge admins to be quite careful not to assume a relationship with ARBPIA here. The evidence points clearly to the contrary. --Mkativerata (talk) 03:23, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Questions by un☯mi

Mbz1, I am curious about this query, why didn't you just ask User:Timotheus_Canens as he was the admin who imposed the sanction in the first place?

Regarding the evidence you present, just so I understand correctly, you want him sanctioned for editing Egypt and mentioning that another user had been edit warring on Damour massacre, is that correct? un☯mi 21:42, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Would you please stop hounding my contributions? I could ask questions anybody I feel like asking a question. Please read carefully what I said about Damour massacre.--Mbz1 (talk) 21:51, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

I looked through your contributions and Nableezys contributions, how else could I hope to get a feel for what transpired?

I am simply wondering why you didn't ask the admin who handed down the sanction.

As for Damour massacre, and I just want to make sure that I am not missing anything or misrepresenting what happened; You hold that Nableezy should be sanctioned for filing this ANI report where he mentions "Lanternix has also been edit-warring on issues related to conflicts between Muslims and Christians in the Middle East. For example, the article Damour massacre includes that this was retribution over the Karantina massacre. Lanternix has repeatedly edit-warred to remove sourced material on the death toll at Karantina and replacing it with a much lower number despite sources disagreeing with him". Is that correct? un☯mi 22:21, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Supreme Deliciousness: There isn't one single edit here that involves the A-I conflict in any way. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:53, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Comment by (not uninvolved) Lanternix: I am very surprised how some are arguing that this very lengthy contribution about Damour massacre does not constitute a violation of this topic ban imposed upon Nableezy!!! Moreover, another issue that seems to be overlooked here is this message left by Nableezy on a user talk page, which is obviously aimed at intimidating the user! I believe these are the two main issues here. --λⲁⲛτερⲛιξ 23:49, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Sol: This is frivolous. The argument is that anything even vaguely connected to the conflict is a violation of the topic ban. The Damour Massacre occurred before Israel joined the war. By this reasoning, editors with A-I topic bans could not edit on the US even if it concerns a time when Israel didn't exist as the US later allies with Israel. The Egypt edits have nothing to do with this. If this is how broadly people want to interpret the scope of A-I Arbcom sanctions then the floodgates of meritless AE requests will open as every editor with a grudge hunts down possible violations (ie, anything that's ever touched the issue). Also, all of these articles would be under 1-RR per community consensus which would simplify this hearing as everyone involved can now be banned for violating it. Sol (talk) 05:19, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Additional comment by Mbz1

1. I did not hound Nab's contributions. I first learned about the dispute from this An/I post. I have AN/I on my watch list.
2. I did not take any part in edit warring in Egypt. I only posted two comments on talk page of the article, and gave advise to the editor how to source the material added to the article. I also made one comment on AN/I.
3. I did know about the massacres. I read about them in newspapers. I have not edited those articles, I did not comment on them either, but I see no reason why shouldn't I comment on one?
4. I provided two differences(Please see above for more explanations) of me being blocked for topic ban violation and user:Gilabrand being blocked for topic ban violation. Those were the differences I used to determent if Nab violated his topic ban, and the answer was "yes, he did". Besides he was also edit warring on the article.
5. My hands are absolutely clean. I've done nothing wrong neither by commenting on AN/I, nor by filing AE, nor by explaining to the editor how to source the material and urge them not edit warring, but rather seek a compromise.
6. I am not sure how one could claim that Damour massacre has nothing to do with Israeli-Arab conflict. It links to 1982 Lebanon War, and to other articles about the conflict. It talks a lot about PLO about Palestinian refugees, and so on, and so on and so on. Of course this article is directly connected to the conflict between Israel and Arabs.
7. I'd also like admins to notice a strong battleground behavior expressed by Nab in his statement here and in the comment he left at my talk page. He behaves as he owns not only one article, but the whole Misplaced Pages as well.
8. I have absolutely nothing personal against Nab, and when he was blocked a few days ago for a topic ban violation I raised my voice in his defense--Mbz1 (talk) 01:59, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
9. Nableezy, could you please explain why in your opinion this edit made by user:Gilabrand , no, not in the article, but on edit warring noticeboard about edit warring on Mahmoud Abbas was a topic ban violation, but your edits are not. Gila was blocked after you asked her: "And why are you here? And arent you topic-banned?", so you did believe she violated her ban, why then you say you did not violate yours?--Mbz1 (talk) 04:08, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Ill answer here. In the comment Gilabrand was blocked for at AN3, she was discussing content covered by the topic area. The content she was discussing was an accusation that the sitting President of the PNA and chair of the PLO was knowingly involved in the Munich massacre. That content is directly related to the topic area and as such Gila was banned from discussing it. nableezy - 04:13, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

But the only thing she said was: "Is your problem that the name of the website has the word Jewish in it? Just asking". --Mbz1 (talk) 04:20, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I know that. She was discussing content (the source used) directly related to the Arab-Israeli conflict. She was banned from doing so. Now you either understand this or you dont, but either way I dont intend to explain it further besides to say this: Gila was discussing content related to the topic area, my AN/I post was about content not related to the topic area. nableezy - 04:23, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it was Damour massacre is directly related to the topic of your ban. Notice that Sabra and Shatila (spelling) links to it because Sabre and Shatila was considered revenge for Damour -- S& S linked directly to Sharon and the Palestinians, and I do agree that mentioning Nasser in your edit summary is too. Also please see an example (above) of me being blocked for a comment that had absolutely nothing to do with the conflict, and was only about wikipedia policies. Mbz1 (talk) 04:34, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

@tariq, if you do not see topic ban violation in Nab's edit maybe you could say laud and clear that my block over this edit was unfair? Please notice I was not edit warring as Nab was, I made only one constructive comment about wikipedia policies, and got blocked for 48 hours! for this comment. My first block for topic ban violation was for this edit at Rothschild family. How Rothschild family article is connected to I/P conflict? And if a small revert in Rothschild family article made me blocked only because of the words Zionism and Israel, surely Nab's editing of Egypt is a topic ban violation too. I believe that topic ban should be implemented equally to everybody, and do not depend on administrators, who are active at the moment. --Mbz1 (talk) 05:18, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

• Comment Nasser was involved and played a leading role in nearly every war that Egypt had with Israel. His forces were trapped in the Falluja pocket during the war of 1948. He was president of Egypt for 3 of the 4 wars that Israel had with Egypt. The Suez War of 1956, the Six Day war of 1967 and the War of Attrition between 1969-70. He was instrumental in formulating Egypt's relationship with Israel for three decades. As for the Damour massacre. It was an act committed by the PLO, sworn enemies of Israel against Lebanon's Christians, who were considered Israel's ally in her fight against the PLO and Syria. The article's Talk page classifies the article in the context of Wiki Project Palestine. This is clearly within the Israel-Palestine topic area. It's not even borderline.--Mbz1 (talk) 15:05, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

comments by umomi

You were blocked for inserting yourself in an AE discussion regarding possible wrongdoing within the topic area. un☯mi 15:24, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't believe that you have shown that Nableezy edited anything that had to do with his actions, only that he is an Arab. Nor did he, as far as I can tell, edit the Damour article while under restrictions, he simply gave evidence of a pattern of edit warring of another editor. un☯mi 15:24, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Tijfo098

I agree with User:Tariqabjotu, this is hardly a violation of WP:ARBPIA, and it's also discussed at Misplaced Pages:ANI#User:Lanternix concurrently. Whether Nableezy should be topic banned from all ME articles is not something that can be decided by a single AE administrator. User:Lanternix is also POV pushing on these Egypt-related articles, in my opinion. Tijfo098 (talk) 07:41, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

As for the Damour article, there does seem to be some sort of sock or meat farm here involving User:Propaganda328 (blocked right now) and Laternix who edit in tandem in a typical pattern of disruptive editing; removing sourced content with deceptive or no edit summaries, for example . There are also a bunch of IP editors making similarly deceptive edits on the same content, probably using open proxies or some other way of editing from seemingly disparate IP addresses. . These series of diffs looks more like deliberate trolling to me than a genuine content dispute. Perhaps the Lebanese civil war, even when not involving Israel, should be considered for community-based 1RR or something like that, so I've just added the ARBPIA banner to the talk page. However, Nableezy's last edit to the Darmour article seems to have been on Dec 3, and he was topic banned on Dec 4, so I don't see how that's a violation. Tijfo098 (talk) 09:20, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

T. Canens, by your logic, Nableezy is also not allowed to edit Jimmy Carter at all because whether you say something nice or naughty about him in any respect may (strongly) depend on your view of the I-P conflict. So, if Nableezy reverts a hypothetical edit that removes Carter from List of Nobel laureates then he is violating his topic ban by saying something nice about Carter. Correction, if Nableezy just complains about such an edit on ANI, then he is already violating his topic ban. Oh, dear. This seems too broad of an interpretation of the "broadly construed" qualifier. I think a request for clarification should be address to the actual ArbCom on this matter. Tijfo098 (talk) 09:46, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Gatoclass

I don't particularly want to get involved with this case, but if the only charge here is that Nableezy violated his topic ban by restoring Nasser to the List of Arabs article, then the case is utterly frivolous given that Nasser unquestionably belongs on that list, and that merely asserting that he belongs on that list has absolutely nothing to do with the Arab-Israeli conflict. We are entitled to exercise a little common sense here. Gatoclass (talk) 13:13, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

This would be fine if common sense was applied uniformly across the board, to editors on all sides. - BorisG (talk) 13:16, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Just because there are some counterintuitive results at AE does not mean we should not try to avoid them. I happen to think that Nableezy has probably been the victim of more unsound remedies over a longer period of time than probably any other AE participant. The breaches for which he has been sanctioned in the past have almost invariably been of the most trivial nature, while his generally sound record of editing in accordance with core policies has been ignored. The same cannot be said for many of his opponents, some of whom have been editing in systematic violation of core policy for years without ever managing to attract a substantial block or ban. There are some major deficiencies in the current implementation of our dispute resolution processes, and at some point they are going to have to be addressed. In the meantime, we have to continue doing what we can to try and ensure that we get those common sense outcomes that I'm sure most of us support. Gatoclass (talk) 14:20, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree with your general principles. As for Nableezy's record, I have an opposite opinion. But I guess we have to agree to disagree. Cheers. - BorisG (talk) 14:26, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

It is worth noting here that the the other editor involved, Lanternix, appears to have a far worse record than Nableezy, having been blocked nine times for exactly the same disruptive behaviour that Nableezy complained about above. This editor appears to be on a mission to disparage Islam and to remove any suggestion that Egyptians are Arabs. To this end, s/he has also been edit-warring on, for example, Arab Christians and Arabic-speaking Christians, Religion in Egypt, Template:Criticism of Islam sidebar and others. RolandR (talk) 14:53, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

There's only one small difference. The other editor involved has no topic ban.--Mbz1 (talk) 15:08, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure what Lanternix is up to, but regardless, his dispute with Nableezy appears to have nothing to do with the A-I conflict. Gatoclass (talk) 15:25, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Result concerning Nableezy

Awaiting Nableezy's comment. I'm particularly interested in an explanation why this edit is not a violation of the topic ban. T. Canens (talk) 22:26, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Whether or not it violates the topic ban, I see edit warring over a controversial ethnic/religious conflict in a country heavily involved in the history and current circumstances of the Arab-Israeli conflict. All things considered, that is incredibly unwise to say the very least. Why any editor should go picking new fights of a similar nature less than a month after being sanctioned is mind-boggling.

Edits summaries like Undid revision 402417137 by Lanternix (talk) rv, you cant be serious that Nasser was not an Arab, the rest of that edit is tendentious bs and Undid revision 403032164 by Lanternix (talk) rv vandalism, keep it up are clearly uncivil. They also seem like violations of the broad topic ban (note the specific mention of Nasser). --Vassyana (talk) 02:50, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree that denying Nasser as an Arab seems absurd, but that's neither here nor there. Nasser clearly falls under a broadly defined topic ban, from my point of view, as an unquestionably principal figure in the history of the conflict. In addition, editing about central figures sounds like common topic ban boundary playing to me. (The game is played thus: Edit as close to possible to a banned area without triggering the topic ban.) I also think if a repeated visitor to AE, or editor sanctioned by AE, is entering into similar patterns in neighboring topic areas that AE is a perfectly appropriate venue. There's nothing preventing us as admins from undertaking normal admin actions in response. If other admins disagree with my perception, so be it; I will defer to their judgment. Vassyana (talk) 04:00, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

For the record, I don't think a sanction is necessary here by any means. It should suffice to offer a clear warning to avoid major figures in the I-P conflict and avoid repeating misconduct in other ethnic, religious, or national controversial topic areas. There's no need to make a capital case or high appeal of this. --Vassyana (talk) 15:26, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

• I personally don't see a problem with what Nableezy has done here. I know admins here often take the view that if something is close to the area of conflict, it probably shouldn't be touched. However, I don't think we should block people because they get close to the area of the topic ban. A warning that Nableezy's playing with fire should suffice -- that is unless you actually want to topic ban Nableezy from all Middle East articles. But editing Egypt or articles about intra-Arab wars being a violation of an Arab-Israeli conflict topic ban... c'mon, people... -- tariqabjotu 04:30, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
• I think Nasser is inextricably intertwined with the A-I conflict, such that it is impossible to discuss him in any realistic manner without mentioning the A-I conflict, and therefore is per se within the scope of the topic ban. Agree with Vassyana. T. Canens (talk) 08:33, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

  Okay, yes, I'll accept that Nableezy's edits to List of Arabs are violations of the topic ban, but I do not believe edits to Egypt and Damour massacre are. Whatever happens to Nableezy should be based on the fact that he edited List of Arabs and not that he edited the other two (as it appears the only problem Mbz1 has with his conduct there is that he edited those articles). -- tariqabjotu 13:01, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

  I'm not going to be doing any action in response to this (although I doubt that's going to be the final result). The more I look at the edits to List of Arabs, the less I find them damning. Lanternix seems to be an established editor, but I can't for the life of me understand what s/he was doing. Anwar El Sadat? Mohamed ElBaradei? Nasser? Umm Kulthum? These are some of the most well-known Arabs of the twentieth century, and Lanternix provides no reason for removing them. I understand we are supposed to apply topic bans without considering the nature of the edits (unless they're vandalism), but the article is already at the edge of the topic ban. The edits Nableezy's edits were reverting were inexplicable and, until now, still unsubstantiated. This is not the behavior I believe the topic ban was intended to curtail. The incivility is a cause for concern, but that may warrant the lightest of blocks (two days at the most), given the context of a just-barely violation of the topic ban. But I'm not holding my breath for that, obviously. -- tariqabjotu 13:49, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

  I've been warning and keeping an eye on Lanternix (talk · contribs · email) and Voiceofplanet (talk · contribs · email). See: User talk:Voiceofplanet, User talk:Vassyana#Thank you and..., User talk:Lanternix#Warning, and this ANI thread about Lanternix. See also: Talk:Religion in Egypt#Recent reverts by User:Voiceofplanet. They'll get sorted one way or the other. --Vassyana (talk) 15:49, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Chesdovi

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Chesdovi

User requesting enforcement

Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 13:38, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Chesdovi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

ARBPIA, Discretionary sanctions,

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. Chesdovis behavior yesterday and today has been troubling, disruptive and gaming the system.

Please take a look at some of his comments:

At Seven Arches Hotel he had added that Jordans annexation was illegal , and I pointed out that there was no source saying it was illegal, he reply's: "Why are there only sources calling Israels establishments in the occupied West Bank illegal? Wouldn't be the 'ole UN ganging up against the Jews again, would it?". He then goes to the Palestine refugee camps article and says: "West Bank camps are illegal settlements" "The 19 West Bank camps built under Jordan's illegal occupation should be described as illegal. Let's have some consistency here."

He returns to Seven Arches Hotel and says: "No. You don't understand. It is only illegal for Israelis to build in the West Bank, not invading Arabs.", then later ads with the edit summary "more ganging up against Israel by the Arab bloc" - "The Arab bloc is at it again..." while linking to a Haaretz news article that has nothing to do with the Misplaced Pages article.

At the Syria article he removes a summary of a quote by Israels defense minister that Israel provoked clashes before the Six day war: , previously anther pov editor edit warred to remove this well sourced notable information and there was discussion at the talkpage:, anyone can clearly see that there is absolutely no consensus to remove this text, Chesdovi is aware of this as he commented there, yet he has today once again removed it from the Six day war section claiming that its "NPOV, UNDUE violations. Use detailed quotes for relevant subjects", (Gaming the system) and then reverted himself with the edit summary: "self rv, 2 early", so he self rv to not violate the 1rr, while planing to once again forcibly edit war and remove this text when there is no consensus at the talkpage to remove it.

At the Syria talkpage he also had continued his personal commentary from above: "Hama bloodbath was legal" - "I was looking for quotes about the Hama massacre, but found out that no international outcry was heard after the Syrian massacres. The United Nations did not condemn Syria's actions, no investigations were called for, and no Arab leaders came forward to condemn Assad's actions. Doh!"

I would also like to ad that this kind of behavior is not new to Chesdovi:

Reply to No More Mr Nice Guy: No I explained my edit: , we have not added to the Israeli settlement articles that they are illegal yet we have sources representing the IC saying that they are illegal, yet Chesdovi did that to this article without a source, I have no problem with the edit if its sourced, but in that case then we must also ad to all Israeli settlement articles that they are illegal as a fact and not as a pov. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:51, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Reply to Chesdovi: What you are saying is not correct, I have not added to all settlement articles that they are "illegal", I explained my edit at the talkpage: "When we discussed and added the Israeli settlements illegality we had found reliable sources representing the international community, and even then we didn't say that they "were illegal" but that the IC view is that they were illegal, in this article we have no source showing the view from the international community, yet chesdovi added that the Jordanian annexation was "illegal" as a fact: " --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 15:44, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I edit many articles related to the Arab-Israeli conflict, and I edited Ahava (company) before you. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:08, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes I am 100% clear, I added exactly as I said that I had added. I brought it up at the talkpage: and after your comment saying there was no sources:, I removed it. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:16, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Reply to Mbz1 :Yes because according to the source The First Jewish Revolt: Archaeology, History and Ideology it did not start out as Jewish, Jews moved in there later, so therefore its false and cherry picking to refer to it as an "ancient Jewish city" in the first sentence of the article. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 15:39, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Whats wrong with identifying a historian as Jewish? Isn't Bernard Jewish? The same section calls Shlomo Sand an "Israeli", so what is the problem? In this edit I identify Silvio Berlusconi as "Italian", should I be banned for that to? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:07, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Reply to Ynhockey :What are you talking about? How is this battleground mentality? The source The First Jewish Revolt: Archaeology, History and Ideology shows it did not start out as Jewish, Jews moved in there later, so therefore its false and cherry picking of history to refer to it as an "ancient Jewish city" in the first sentence of the article. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:01, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

Topic ban from Arab-Israeli conflict.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Chesdovi

Statement by Chesdovi

• "Troubling, disruptive and gaming the system"? If this is about adhering to WP:TALK, I am happy to accept any recomendations. About Syria, the only person who want's the POV violation in the article since my suggestion to remove it pending a solution at talk is SD. I am of the opinion that if something is violating polciy, albeit with illegit. "consensus", it be removed pending mitigation. None of my points made about the Dayan quote were addressed by SD. He is not willing to engage or edit in a helpful fashion. Just readding material after it has been removed pending further discussion is annoying. Chesdovi (talk) 14:04, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

• Regarding tariqabjotu: If this is a problem, I am happy take a softer approach. It does take another to point this out, uno. Chesdovi (talk) 14:14, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

• Regarding my behavioual pattern noted by SD, this is just my style. Is there anything wrong about it? , , , , , , , etc... Chesdovi (talk) 14:10, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

• I will also add that comments made here were sincere and have led to creation of the relevant pages Kurdish villages destroyed during the Iraqi Arabization campaign and Kurdish villages depopulated by Turkey. Chesdovi (talk) 14:47, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

• I am also pleased to see that SD has seen to it that standards, once espoused herself, ("Israel and Jews have nothing to do with it. They have stolen our lands, now they steal our food and claim it as theyrse." ), are now being monitored by her, Well done. The AE system seems to work. Chesdovi (talk) 15:19, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

• I created Seven Arches Hotel three years ago. Four days ago, after doing work on International Law & Israeli settlements, it dawned on me that this hotel was built under the same conditions. Adding this fact to article was nearly immediately pounced on by SD, who not responding to my query at talk , removed the word illegal. She also added the "fact" tag for Occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem by Jordan? Yet SD has tirelessly campaigned for the word “illegal” to be included at all Israel settlements. There seems to have been no attempt on her part to find source disputing or corroborating the legality of Jordan’s settlements. I hope that by highlighting this POV issue regarding SD will go to explain why her accusation here should not be treated as coming from a non-neutral editor.

• SD further says "Anyway we don't add "illegal" before everything Israel occupies in other articles". Presumably she means Israeli buildings over the green line. Since such buildings are often described as being in an Israeli settlement, the IC’s view, obviously and correctly does not need to be mentioned in each individual building page. Yet at Ahava, SD insists that the IC view is added to the page about an Israeli company, (when that is more correctly addressed in the Mitzpe Shalem page, being already linked to Israeli settlement) in order to push her agenda to give as much publicity to the political opinions about everything and anything linked to Israel. On this page, however, as there is no page about Jordanian settlements, it would be necessary to include such a assertion. Chesdovi (talk) 16:10, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

More importantly, as NMNNG pointed out, how did you come to Seven Arches Hotel? Chesdovi (talk) 16:25, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Read an article about it in Haaretz and googled it. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:30, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

And Ahava, Cave of Ramban, Tomb of the Prophets_Haggai,_Zechariah_and_Malachi, Ancient_underground_quarry,_Jordan_Valley... ? You are free to follow me around as long as you don't hound me like Bali. Chesdovi (talk)

• SD has updated and editied her User request after disscusion has ensued. Chesdovi (talk) 16:32, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

You are not being 100% clear with everyone. You did add that the IC viewed IS as illegal to many pages. Sure, it makes a difference how these facts are presented, that's precisely why I did not re-add your removal of the word illegal from Seven Arches Hotel. You did not, however, even attempt to use NPOV language as I did in many Golan Heights articles and you tagged the Jordanian occupation reference, which is very strange indeed. You can delete offensive words as much as you like, but don't go round reporting on others if they do the same thing. You removed the word illegal without attempting to initiate and wait for supporting sources, the same tactic you used at Turkish settlements in NC.Chesdovi (talk) 17:15, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I stumbled across Cave of Ramban which had an ongoing dispute between you and SD in which you had asserted that East Jerusalem was in Israel, despite your being well aware (from previous other talk pages) that East Jerusalem is not considered part of Israel by anyone but Israel. I'm going to assume it's the same dispute . . . and yes, yes it is. Much like what you used to do with Golan Heights. If you keep making the same disputed changes across multiple pages then you're inviting someone to either follow you around or report you. You can't continue the same behavior at new venues and then plead you're a victim. It's tendentious. Please stop. Sol (talk) 17:17, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I must note that I am now unavaiable for comment for a few hours or till tomorrow and request that no actions are taken before I have had time to digest and response comprehensivley. Chesdovi (talk) 17:05, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

• • Vassyana, pls explain which comments are inflammatory. And what the difference is betweeen "frustrated expressions and/or insults" and my comments, none I hope were insulting. I have just read about trolling and hope that the bit that you feel applies to me is under the "Pestering" section. Is it? Chesdovi (talk) 16:14, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
  • And I don't think my acceptance of any recomendation here ahould be called "woefully insufficient". Chesdovi (talk) 16:33, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Chesdovi

Comment by No More Mr Nice Guy

The editor creating a battleground atmosphere here is SD, by reverting information he knows is factually correct rather than just tagging it for sources (here are just a few sources supporting Chesdovi's edit, which took me less than 5 minutes to find). He did the same thing in another topic when following Chesdovi's contributions a couple of months ago. Such bad faith revert-for-the-sake-of-reverting are just one of things that create a battleground atmosphere in the topic area.

Also, perhaps SD could let us know how he came upon this somewhat obscure article? Following users you don't like just so you can make their editing experience unpleasant enough to get a reaction and then reporting them (repeatedly) also has the stench of a battleground.

If a bit of sarcasm is not acceptable, Chesdovi has indicated he will stop using it. I won't go into the kind of much more blatant uncivil behavior that gets a pass around here. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 14:35, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

General comment by Sean.hoyland

Adding material in the I-P conflict topic area without sources isn't something to be encouraged and people removing it shouldn't be accused of "bad faith revert-for-the-sake-of-reverting". Nothing personal in Chesdovi's case, lots of people do it, but we all know the rules and adding unsourced material in this topic area is like lighting a fuse. Sean.hoyland - talk 15:23, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

We're talking about a piped link to an article that already included sources. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:56, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it's useful to talk about when citing sources isn't required in articles covered by discretionary sanctions or if verifiability can be provided via piped links to completely independent instances of content that aren't synchronized by any automated processes where the target at the end of the pipe that is assumed to provide WP:V compliance can be changed by anyone at anytime. Even social insects handle information more reliably than that. People can simply cite the sources like it says in the sanctions. It's easy. Here's an example of me removing something I know for a fact to be true, that I or someone else could have found sources for because there is a mismatch with the current sources. No one complained. Sean.hoyland - talk 19:32, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Comments by Mbz1

SD came here with "unclean" hands.

At Gamla erases any reference to historical Jewish presence in the city :with edit summary "Jews moved in there later" Dec 19, 2010

The edit is unreferenced, has no basis in fact and its only :purpose is to further turn topic area into a battleground.

Let's see what the source say: "The city of Gamla is mentioned in Talmudic sources as a walled city dating back to the time of Joshua Bin-Nun" .

Here he dismisses the views of two editors for the following tendentious reason

NOTE: Both Epeefleche and No More Mr Nice Guy who here above have opposed the block are both pro-Israeli editors.” Oct 23, 2010

As if to say, if you are identified as having Israeli sympathies don’t bother commenting because your views are unwelcome and automatically tainted.

In the following edit,

Dec 12, 2010 SD changes "Jerusalem International Airport" (THE OFFICIAL ALTERNATE NAME) to "East Jerusalem International Airport." The edit is neither fact-based nor sourced and its only purpose is to further turn topic area into a battleground.

In this edit SD adds "The Jewish historian" introducing Bernard Lewis as a Jew, as if to say that if he's a Jew, he's biased and can not have an untained opinion

--Mbz1 (talk) 15:27, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Comment by MalcolmMcDonald

I find it difficult to believe any action will be taken against this problem, particularly after seeing the battleground tactics already deployed.

In this case, I'd be fairly sure that Chesdovi is even factually wrong - there is nothing to indicate that Jordan's annexation was illegal. Even the partisan and non-reliable Jewish Virtual Library seems to grudgingly accept that it was uncontentious to all parties (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/legsess.html Sessions of the Arab League, Session 12-I, May 1950 "Iraq pressed a compromise position (later accepted) which viewed Jordan as the 'trustee' of the area" and Session 12-II, Resolution 321, 12 June 1950 "Acknowledges receipt of the information that East Palestine had been annexed by Jordan"). The UN never objected, unlike the near-unanimous and repeated condemnatory resolutions about the situation of the area post-1967.

However, it is plainly not worth attempting to contribute usefully at a topic that has been allowed to deteriorate so badly. MalcolmMcDonald (talk) 16:32, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

The illegality of the Israeli settlements, the Wall, and the associated administrative regime have been authoritatively established by the political and judicial organs of the UN and the contracting state parties to the Geneva Conventions. No similar authoritative declarations or opinions were ever expressed with respect to the union of Arab Palestine and Transjordan. On at least one occasion, I reverted an edit by Chesdovi regarding the illegality of the annexation of the West Bank by Transjordan and directed him to the existing discussions on the article talk page.

I had provided a number of published sources, including the US State Department "Digest of International Law" and the State Department "Foreign Relations of the United States"-series which say that (i) the union of Arab Palestine and Transjordan was a case of the legal acquisition of sovereignty over territory; (ii) that the law of nations recognized the inherent right of the non-Jewish communities of the former Palestine mandate, including Transjoran, to organize a state and operate a government as they saw fit in the territories occupied by the two communities after the mandate was terminated; and (iii) that the union between Arab Palestine and Transjordan had been brought about through regional congresses and a plebiscite that reflected the freely expressed will of the two peoples. Here is a list of sources in my user space and one of several discussions regarding the topic at Talk:Occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem by Jordan .

FYI, the Vaad Leumi and the Jewish Agency granted themselves all legislative, executive and judiciary powers over the Arabs in the territory they occupied. That included quite a bit of territory that lay beyond the boundaries of the UN partition plan. The UN Security Council and UN Mediator subsequently accepted formal agreements between Jordan, Egypt, and Israel which established the permanent lines of demarcation and the de jure authority and exclusive competence under international law of those states to negotiate any future boundary changes between themselves. Jordan and Egypt subsequently recognized the PLO as the sole representative of the Palestinians. Jordan ceded its claims to the West Bank territory to the PLO when the union betweenthe East and West Banks was legally dissolved. Israel signed a peace treaty with Jordan that preserved the status of the territory that it had occupied in 1967. harlan (talk) 14:30, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

I can only base myself on what I have read and the Occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem by Jordan which says the Arab League viewed Jordan's presence in the West Bak as illegal. Chesdovi (talk)

I'm not making a list of articles that suffer from POV, but that's another obvious one. No resolutions at the UN declare the annexation illegal, the Arab League eventually defined it as trusteeship, and if Nasser or Kassim thought it was illegal they never formally said so in any of the 3 references given. If they had said it was illegal it would be under Sharia, not under any Internationally acceptable interpretation. A POV narrative has become the encyclopaedia's neutral voice. MalcolmMcDonald (talk) 18:57, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Question for Chesdovi - have you ever seen this http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Harlan_wilkerson/Jordan_Recognition and have you or any other editor ever challenged it or produced a counter to it?

If you have seen the information there, have not challenged it, but persist in trying to edit in a fashion contrary to the evidence, then there must be serious questions over your conduct.

I have also dipped into your contribution record going years back, in Oct 2006 I found "The Dome of the Rock was built as a Masjid, but not a? as a mosque for exclusive Muslim worship ... the fact that the building was not meant for exclusive Muslim worship and that claims of exclusive Muslim rights for prayer at the edifice are therefore tenuous, should given prominence in the article" http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Dome_of_the_Rock/Archive_1#Shrine_2 and "... this discussion is not necessarily about who owns the land. We all know that the Jewish people own the Temple Mount. It’s transaction by King David is recorded in the Bible" http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Dome_of_the_Rock&diff=prev&oldid=81983028 which would make it appear that you've carried out pretty odious religious baiting over a period of more than 4 years. MalcolmMcDonald (talk) 13:33, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Petri Krohn

There is something really strange going on at Seven Arches Hotel. While most hotel articles tell how many stars a hotel has, in this article an IP editor – who seems to share Chesdovi's pov – is insisting the that the first sentence starts with a WP:COATRACK for an "illegal occupation" theory. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 18:12, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Pantherskin

It seems that Chesdovi has no clean hands here, althoug SD's description of what is happening at the Syria article is highly misleading given that there is anything but a consensus to include the quote; given that SDs editing in this section is highly biased; given that SD insists on including this quote without any disclaimer, depite the source making it clear that the quote is not seen as giving an unbiased summary of events by historians. Chesdovis excessive tagging, and edit-warring might violate the rules of Misplaced Pages, but the selecdtive use of sources as done by SD in this article is far more damaging to Misplaced Pages. Sadly though NPOV is not actively enforced here... Regarding the quote SD insists on including, without any qualifications. The same article he uses to cite the quote says "Historians took a cautious approach, noting that the conversations had not been a formal interview."; "Bruce Maddy-Weitzman, a senior researcher at the Dayan Center for Middle Eastern and African Studies in Tel Aviv, said he was troubled that the published conversations could overshadow other factors in the decision to strike Syria.", "He didn't intend to give a full, rounded interview, said Shabtai Teveth, a biographer of Dayan. Here he singles out the kibbutzim, which is not a very balanced picture". That shows pretty much that in at least this instance Chesdovi was in the right when it came to the content and SD blatantly violated NPOV.

Result concerning Chesdovi

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• These are the kinds of actions topic bans were made for. Chesdovi is being highly incivil and his politically charged comments are creating a battleground atmosphere that will only lead to more trouble in the area. If I were to throw out a period of time at this point, I'd say two months; Chesdovi hasn't been a particularly prolific disrupter in this area. -- tariqabjotu 14:04, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

• I would put three months out there, along with a sharp warning that further inflammatory comments in any topic area will be rewarded with blocks. This is a big set of blatant trolling and bombthrowing. --Vassyana (talk) 15:40, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

• Many of the comments are obviously inflammatory. Saying it's just your approach and you'll tone it down if it's a problem is woefully insufficient. That a response appropriate to some frustrated expressions and/or insults, not for a large series of absolutely over the top trolling. --Vassyana (talk) 15:40, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
• Agreed that Chesdovi has crossed the line with many of his edits. On the whole, I support the proposed sanction, but believe that we must not act quickly and examine the behavior of both sides, as among the mutual mudslinging in the case, some actually legitimate concerns have been raised about the recent behavior of the editor who filed this request. There is a high degree of battleground mentality here, as demonstrated by edits such as this (brought up above). I feel that if we don't identify the deeper problem, we will be loaded with more cases like this soon. —Ynhockey 21:53, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

SD's lengthy comment below about nsaum is a prime example of battleground mentality (seeing editors as "pro-Israeli" and "Jewish" in a pejorative fashion). Note that that makes SD's third AE request in maybe five days... there's clearly a problem. That being said, topic-banning Chesdovi can be done now while the sanction against SD can come in the coming days. -- tariqabjotu 16:03, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Tariqabjotu, You have misunderstood, I never called anyone "pro-Israeli" or "Jewish" in a pejorative fashion. User:Breein1007 edits was in support of the State of Israel, this is what I wanted to point out. I didn't mean anything insulting or bad against him about it. And how is it a "pejorative fashion" to call Bernard Lewis a Jewish historian? The same section called Shlomo Sand "Israeli", Here I call Silvio Berlusconi Italian is this also a "pejorative fashion", you have misunderstood what I meant with those edits. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:16, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Pantherskin

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Pantherskin

User requesting enforcement

Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 21:38, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Pantherskin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy that this user violated

ARBPIA, Discretionary sanctions, edit warring

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. Pantherskin had previously edit warred to remove a summary of a quote from the Syria article. You can see him here edit warring, he removed it at least three times from the Golan Heights article and seven times from the Syria article:

There was no consensus at the talkpage to remove it.

He was blocked for slow motion edit warring.

He then left Misplaced Pages for a couple of months, then he returned and without any new consensus or any new discussion once again reverts it and removes the Dayan summary:

And now since his return he has once again continued to edit war and remove it again: anyone can clearly see that there is no new consensus at the talkpage to remove it so Pantherskin is continuing to forcibly remove it.

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)

Topic ban from Syrian-Israeli conflict

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Reply to Mbz1, I did not "erase any reference to historical Jewish presence in the city", With this edit I removed in the first sentence that its a Jewish city because the first source in the article shows that Gamla did not start out as a Jewish city. It is therefor incorrect to refer to it as a "Jewish city" in the first line of the article when Jews later moved in there.

So, according to you, I should go to Palmyra, and remove from the first line that it was an ancient Arab city in Syria, because it was first a Sumerian city, then a Solomonic one, then Greek/Roman, and only conquered by Arabs in the 7th century? Because it is incorrect to refer to it as an "Arab city" in the first line of the article when Arabs only later moved in there. I want to make sure I have this right. Two for the show (talk) 01:03, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with the history of Palmyra, but if it was several different things then it shouldn't be called just "Arab" in the lead. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 01:36, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

In this edit I added that Atarot Airport is located in East Jerusalem, I see now that I shouldn't have added "East" before "Jerusalem International Airport", that was a mistake.

Whats wrong with identifying a Jewish historian as Jewish? The same section calls Shlomo Sand an "Israeli", so what is the problem? In this edit I identify Silvio Berlusconi as "Italian", should I be banned for that to? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:16, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Try to call Berlusconi a Christian politician or Romney as a Mormon politician and see what happens. - BorisG (talk) 01:18, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Being a Jew is also an ethnic background, not only religion. And its also the context of the text, the text is about a historian talking about the origins of Jews. So to point out that the background of the historian is also Jewish is relevant. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 01:36, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

It is, but I can't see how ethnic angle makes is more acceptable. If anything, it is even worse. How about calling Miliband a Jewish politician in the context of policy debate on relationship with Israel? - BorisG (talk) 03:59, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Reply to Pantherskin: What Pantherskin has done here below is to cherry pick a couple of sources that supports his pov, Moshe Dayans quote was published in 1997 and the source used is NYT so its new information. And who stopped Pantherskin from adding other relevant information? This is not a reason to remove the summary of the Dayan quote. The quote is also brought up in several books: p 154 "Israeli security was the alleged reason for military action in Syrian Golan Heights, but conflict over resources and farmland were important issues in themselves. According to Moshe Dayan..." "Israel intentionally precipitated hostile exchanges with Syrian farmers in order to justify larger military adventures in the Heights", p 355 p 47

And there is no source presented by Pantherskin that contradicts what Dayan said. But there are also other sources talking about the same thing, see for example:p 43 . He removed all the text about that Israel provoked the clashes, and turned it into a Syrian claim, this means nothing. This is a content dispute about something he doesn't like personally and he wants it removed. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:39, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

NYT is not reliable? UN observer Jan Muhren is not a credible source? The current affairs programme can be found online, also The Discourse of Palestinian-Israeli Relations by Sean F. McMahon is published by Routledge, what is wrong with it?--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:59, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

How come you didn't mention The Discourse of Palestinian-Israeli Relations? Article in Washington Report on Middle Eastern Affairs is by Sheldon L. Richman, he looks like a good source: . Muhren was an UN observer, he was right there and saw everything with his own eyes. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 23:21, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

So a balanced view according to you is to remove reliably sourced text that Israel provoked clashes and then ad text written by the Israeli ambassador to the United states saying that Syria sponsored Palestinian attacks, and text that: "Syrian artillery repeatedly bombed Israeli civilian communities" --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:46, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Michael Oren isn't the Israeli ambassador to the US? If a source doesn't have a quote doesn't mean that they ignore it. And I have shown you several reliable sources that bring up the Dayan quote and other reliable sources talking about the exact same thing as Dayan. The only thing said in the NYT article is one researcher in Tel Aviv saying that other things involving Syria is not mentioned, (this can easily be added) and his biographer Shabati Tveteh claiming he is singling out kibbutzim. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 11:12, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Pantherskin

Statement by Pantherskin

Please note that this a general overview article of Syria. What was previously in the article on Israel-Syria relations before the Six-day war was a single quote by Moshe Dayan. The quote was sourced to a NYT article that said "Historians took a cautious approach, noting that the conversations had not been a formal interview.". What means that this quote at best only gives a partial picture, and at worst is misleading. Nothing about these doubts about the quote in the article, and nothing about what is typically included in history books on this time period, i.e. the shelling of Israeli settlements, the incursions by Palestinian militants into Israel that were sponsored by Israel, and different interpretations of terms of the status of the demilitarized zone between Syria and Israel.

Only including this quote without any disclaimer thus violates NPOV. Even worse, only including this quote is giving a biased view of Syrian-Israeli history given that pretty much every history book that discusses this time period gives little attention if any to Moshe Dayan's quote or the substance of it (see for example (page 51, (page 192), (page 88), (page 58ff.), (page 289) etc).

A few days ago I removed the quote and replaced it by a summary of this time period, taken from reputable sources (see - the edit Supreme Deliciousness complains about). I invite every editor to check the neutrality. I tried my best, including Syria's defense that it cannot be held accountable for actions by others, and that Israeli was isolated in its view on the status of the demilitarized zone. Given that this is an overview article I also removed the Dayan quote, partly because of its dubious nature, partly because reliable sources make it clear that other events are seen as more important by historians. Nevertheless the short discussion on the status of the demilitarized zone and excursions by Israeli armored tractors summarizes the essence of the Dayan quote - according to the Israeli interpretation these excursions were legal, according to the Syrian interpretation they were provocations. The quote might suggest that the Syrians were right, but as historians are doubtful I left the quote out.

I do not wish this AE request to become another battleground for the usual pro/anti-Israel/Zionist whatever warriors, but I understand that this is what inevitably will happen. All I can say about this request is that I tried my best to improve the article and to bring this small section into compliance with NPOV. Supreme Deliciousness stand in the discussion on the talk page seemed to be that because this quote can be sourced it should be included, and that if there are doubts or opposing viewpoints someone else should work on finding them and including them. But that's not how good articles are written, because then - instead of looking at what good sources say about this time period - I would solely look at what sources say about this specific quote.

Reply to Supreme Deliciousness I find it hard to take this response serious as it rather proves my point. I did not cherry-picked my sources. I simply looked for academic books on the history of Syria/Israel and looked at what they write about this time period. One, to find out about events. Second, to learn how differents events should be weighted in an overview article. He comes with articles on very specific events, at least one from a a partisan source, none from anything resembling a serious and authorative source. The would be hardly be sufficient to establish events, and even if they would they would not tell us anything about how to weight these events in the larger context of things. Of course presenting these kinds of newspaper articles is a good way of using wikipedia policies to subvert WP:NPOV because hey it can be sourced and should thus be included. And seriously "something he doesn't like personally and he wants it removed"?? I made a case using sources, and that's what I get as an answer??

The Washington Report on Middle Eastern Affairs is a highly partisan source, and the UN observer Jan Muhren is a credible source on himself, and nothing more. And I never said that the NYT is unreliable, I simply asked for taking the NYT serious by taking note that the NYT article says that this quote needs to be approached with caution. What is wrong is that you want certain claims in the article and try to find sources that support this claim.

You never presented this source at the talk page. All you did on the talk page was stonewalling, reverting, and saying this quote is sourced, thus it should not be removed and if there are POV problems others should fix it - but of course the quote has to stay there. WP:GAME to me, but of course that can be a very successful strategy when it comes to driving away those who want to present a balanced view of a time period.

This is getting tiresome. All I see from you is the same silly insistance on including a quote, despite the fact that most sources on this time period of Syrian-Israeli relations ignore this quote, or are emphasizing that it needs to be approached with caution. Even worse, you are making false claims such as that I inserted text written by the Isreali ambassador. The more I see of your battleground behavior and WP:GAMEs, the more clear it is that you should be topic banned from this area. It is utterly laughable when you accuse others of POV editing, when all you do is to insist on including a quote despite your source making it clear that this quote is somewhat misleading.

Reply to George Al-Shami Highest caliber of POV-pushing. Unabashed extremist pro-Zionist stance. He will cook up some disingenuous argument. You are not even presenting a single diffs that somehow would support your claims!

Comments by others about the request concerning Pantherskin

Comments by Mbz1

SD came here with "unclean" hands, and he has to be topic banned. Please see below:

At Gamla erases any reference to historical Jewish presence in the city :with edit summary "Jews moved in there later" Dec 19, 2010

The edit is unreferenced, has no basis in fact and its only :purpose is to further turn topic area into a battleground.

Let's see what the source say: "The city of Gamla is mentioned in Talmudic sources as a walled city dating back to the time of Joshua Bin-Nun" .

Here he dismisses the views of two editors for the following tendentious reason

NOTE: Both Epeefleche and No More Mr Nice Guy who here above have opposed the block are both pro-Israeli editors.” Oct 23, 2010

As if to say, if you are identified as having Israeli sympathies don’t bother commenting because your views are unwelcome and automatically tainted.

In the following edit,

Dec 12, 2010 SD changes "Jerusalem International Airport" (THE OFFICIAL ALTERNATE NAME) to "East Jerusalem International Airport." The edit is neither fact-based nor sourced and its only purpose is to further turn topic area into a battleground.

In this edit SD adds "The Jewish historian" introducing Bernard Lewis as a Jew, as if to say that if he's a Jew, he's biased and can not have an untained opinion--Mbz1 (talk) 22:07, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Comment by BorisG

Seems like a normal content dispute, and a rather trivial one at that. Not appropriate for AE, in my view. - BorisG (talk) 00:58, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Agree in relation to Pantherskin, but I believe SD editing pattern that has lately became the same she was topic banned for a few months back should be looked at, and I believe sanctioning SD is in order.--Mbz1 (talk) 01:38, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Re to Boris: Coming back from a 5-month break to start an edit war... That does not look good, especially for someone who came to the project to be constantly involved in editing ethnic conflicts (one of his first edits: ). Biophys (talk) 03:21, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

What Pantherskin explained above is perfectly logical even if his methods are not. Who leaves and comes back does not bother me. A number of people in this area have battleground mentality and Pantherskin is not an exception at all. SD is a typical example of this. BTW it takes (at least) two to edit war. When one partisan editor brings his opponent to AE, it does not look good either. Admins should look at conduct of all sides (or dismiss without action). - BorisG (talk) 04:08, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Edit warrign is not just reverting, its the spirit of what is happening, there is no agreement to remove the quote, so to keep on removing it despite no consensus is the origin of the edit warring. Thats why I opened this Enforcement, because I don't want to edit war. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:33, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Sure, it takes two to tango. The important factor is not the "mentality", but what exactly someone is doing or contributing here. If one looks at the edit history of an editor who made only ~800 edits (for example), and most of them represent reverts, claims like this or that and contentious disputes, this is a serious matter for concern. One must contribute content, not conflicts.Biophys (talk) 05:47, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

It appears we have two POV warriers here. Arguably, more than two. I really have no interest researching their record to determine which of them is worse. All I am saying is that admins should take into account the record of both sides. Cheers. - BorisG (talk) 11:58, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

I strongly agree. A lot was said about problems in EE area, but these conflicts are worse. Just look at the statements below. SD: "Breein1007 who is Pro-Israeli". George Al-Shami: "his unabashed extremist pro-Zionist stance". If I was an admin, I would topic-ban them all. Biophys (talk) 15:35, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Comment by Nsaum75

Biophys brought up the argument of "content over conflict" in the immediate section prior. SD was topic banned from I-P related articles for 30 days (April 30 to May 30) of this past year. During the 30 days he was banned he only made TWO types of contributions. One type was to forum-shop over 10 admins in an attempt to find someone willing to re-read a battle-field laiden SPI case against a user he had been involved with numerous conflicts with (essentially carry on the battle). The second type was 10 edits to ONE article about Playstation 3 games. He made two edits to potential IP related articles, but self reverted so as not to violate his topic ban. Those edits can be viewed here..

In my opinion, an editor who is here to contribute constructively to an encyclopedia will find other areas to edit if they are banned. An editor who is here just to create conflict and push a POV, will just drop out until their ban is over, or go to AE/SPI and try to punish their opponents while they are "down for the count".

The closing admin needs to take into consideration the editing history of both Editors, not just the individual who this case was brought against. -- nsaum75  06:48, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Talk about a bad faith comment by Nsaum75, There was a SPI based on behavior and no admin looked at it because it was very long, so I asked the closing admin if I was allowed to ask admin to look at it and he said that I could: . Many admins declined to look at it so I just kept on asking several admins until it got attention. Your claim that I am here to "just to create conflict and push a POV" is absurd and not based on anything. I edit many articles that has nothing to do with the Arab-Israeli conflict, I have also created several articles that has nothing to do with the A-I conflict, I can go into greater detail of this if any admin wants.

Nsaum75 is an editor who edits Misplaced Pages to push a pov: "The international community considers it part of Israel" When it is infact the opposite, that the international community do not consider it part of Israel.

Previously I opened a AE against Breein1007 who is Pro-Israeli. Nsaum knows breeins disruptive behavior: he later removes that comment: saying he "doesn't want to get involved". Then when an admin advocates a topic ban for Breein75: directly after nsaum once again posts and pushes for me to be sanctioned, although I had not done anything wrong: . This is the exact same thing he is doing now.

Nsaum 75 is constantly wikistalking me, shows up to articles right after I edit them, although he has never made any edit there before: List of LGBT Jews: transport in Syria: Ben-Gurion House: Shebaa farms: Gaza flotilla raid: WikiProject Arbitration Enforcement: Anti-Lebanon mountains List of wine-producing regions Israeli wine Og Second Temple of Jerusalem Golan: Al-Araqeeb: Arrack (drink) Highway 87 (Israel):. I opened a AfD. Nsaum75 then edits there, previously he never touched that article until I opened the AfD, .

At one time I started a thread about a sockpuppetér and his puppet at the ANI, I explained In the first sentence why I didn't notify him:, Nsaum then right away went to the discussion and pushes for me to be sanctioned: (Why is Nsaum75 even getting involved in that discussion?) He also posts at another talkpage that I didn't notify despite me already saying why I didn't notify and despite that he already asked for me to be sanctioned at another board Clearly forum shopping as also noticed by another user:

He opened a clear straw man RfC: "Should the Golan Heights be referred to as a "disputed" territory or "illegally occupied" territory?". Basically gives two option, the Israeli view, then a view that clearly will not get support "illegally". Two other people reacted to this aswell:

In a conversation at an article talkkpage, Nsaum75 removed a comment where he had said it is "not neutral", while at the same time adding that: "Are we going to try to game the system by interjecting trigger words like "non neutral" whenever something is said that we don't agree with?" . This really says it all.

An obvious sockpuppet named "LibiBamizrach" shows up starts edit warring, pov pushing and begins to be generally disruptive at a wide variety of Arab-Israeli articles, anyone can clearly see that this is on old account just looking at his first edits at wikipedia. LibiBamizrach contacted Nsaum75 and said: "thx for the welcome": but on LibiBamizrach talkpage there is no post from Nsaum75. Why is Nsaum75 sending of wiki messages to this "new" account outside of wikipedia? In this edit LibiBamizrach mentions how a "cleanstart" is interesting:. Why is nsaum75 sending of-wiki messages about "cleanstart" to this "new" user who is obviously a reincarnation of on old disruptive pov editor who is continuing the same behavior? I opened a SPI against him, after Nsaum75 sent this sockpuppet off wiki messages to tell an admin that the new account is a "cleanstart", when infact its nothing but abuse of multiple accounts, right after the new puppet contacts an admin:, and right after the SPI I opened was deleted by the admin, I first thought it was Amoruso, but what I do know is that there is something very shady with what happened with him deleting the SPI and I asked the admin if LibiBamizrach has been notified of the ARBPIA sanction before and he did not reply to me. But later admin Sandstein saw through this fasad of "cleanstart" that Nsaum75 had told "LibiBamizrach" to present his puppet account as, and Sandstein blocked the account:, please read what Sandstein says: "it is also highly likely that you are a banned or blocked editor trying to evade your sanctions, or a veteran editor attempting to evade accountability for your actions with this or your other account. This means that your use of this account is an abuse of multiple accounts."

This is only some of the things Nsaum75 has done, there is more. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:25, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

That long, and cherry picked response helps to exemplify mine and other concerns about long-term battlefield, pov-warrior, and disruptive behavior. I wikistalk no one, and its not a requirement to edit a page in order to watch it (i have many watched, unedited pages) and I also follow AfD listings. My edit history speaks for itself as does yours.

I have also never been sanctioned or blocked, how about you?? However if you want to bring up wikistalking, perhaps you could address why you recently popped up to request file mover rights on the Commons only a day after I requested (and was successfully granted) file mover rights

AND, Unlike my successful request, your request was denied because of admins concerns that you might have political motivations and because you did not recognize your own POV. You continued to argue how you don't make POV edits even after being denied filemover rights

Anyhow, like I said, your long winded response only helps to exemplify your long-term battlefield, POV mentality here on WP. But like BorisG and others above said, you are not alone in exhibiting long-term, poor, non-productive behavior on WP. The same problem exists with several editors on the "Israeli" side as well. However most of them seem to recognize their hands are unclean, but in your responses here and elsewhere, I've not seen evidence that you realize any problem with your edits, actions or behavior...despite being sanctioned, blocked and warned by numerous admins -- nsaum75  14:51, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Nothing of what I said is cherry picked, the diffs speaks for themselves. The problems at Commons started because of account Kàkhvelokákh, guess who that was? I don't remember exactly everything that happened there but it was about the description of images, and I also wanted to move some names, so its only natural that I would ask for it. All images I asked to be renamed have been renamed:. Is this "political motivations" or "pov" names ? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 15:39, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Comment by George Al-Shami

Pantherskin is attempting to remove a properly sourced paragraph from the Arab-Israeli conflict section of the "Syria" article. I have seen nothing, but the highest caliber of POV-pushing by Pantherskin. To give an example of this; on some articles he does not delete sources from the New York Times provided they back his unabashed extremist pro-Zionist stance; however if that same publication prints something that contradicts or criticizes Israel he will cook up some disingenuous argument just to remove that source. This former behavior is in complete contradiction to the integrity of Misplaced Pages. A closer scrutiny of Pantherskin's edits will prove the former contention.George Al-Shami (talk) 03:24, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

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Result concerning Pantherskin

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