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Talk:Aspartame controversy

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To-do list for Aspartame controversy: edit · history · watch · refresh · Updated 2012-03-11


Here are some tasks awaiting attention:
  • Cleanup : Scientific publications -- weak Gone --SV Resolution(Talk) 15:29, 30 April 2009 (UTC) Alleged conflict of intrerest prior to 1996 -- should this be merged into discussion of approval?
  • Expand : Why the US approval process caused controversy
    • Charges of COI in DOJ handling of FDA's Fraud allegations against Searle.
    • Charges of COI in hirings of 6 FDA personnel (described in GAO 86 report to Metzenbaum)
    • Studies by Olney and others dismissed.
    • Expand and integrate the timeline in the article
    • Charges of COI when new FDA commissioner overturned unanimous decision of PBOI
    Senator Metzenbaum's role in returning the controversy to the news. Why the Ramazzinni studies contribute to the controversy
    • Allegations of COI in industry-funded critiques of Soffritti studies
    ...
  • NPOV : Remember that parts of this article that deal with medical safety follow WP:MEDRS and should rely on secondary sources and must reflect the preponderance of medical opinion, while other parts of this article that deal with historical, social, legal, etc. aspects explain the controversy should rely on secondary sources as much as possible but are not subject to WP:MEDRS.
  • Verify : Different types of sources are appropriate to different sections of this article.
Priority 1 (top)
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Aspartame controversy article.
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Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Update safety section

Per discussion above, I removed all primary studies and re-wrote the section using only secondary studies/reviews. Should flow better now, and hopefully keep people from wanting to stick in primary studies. Yobol (talk) 01:31, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

I was quite happy with your changes, they were reverted by TM, so perhaps other should weigh in with their opinions. Dbrodbeck (talk) 11:59, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
Ticklemeister restored the text with the notation, "You don't improve an article about a controversy by removing one side of the controversy". However, we cannot provide parity to the sceptic side and certainly should not rely on primary sources. TFD (talk) 12:26, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
Anyone is certainly welcome to add information from other secondary sources that meet MEDRS; it's not my fault most (though not all) that I found think aspartame is completely safe. Yobol (talk) 14:45, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
Looks like a basically good step. This page is still 41 kb, so we might need to consider further paring or a spinout article. - 2/0 (cont.) 18:00, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
I was thinking that now that this page has been cleaned up it can be merged back into the main aspartame page. QuackGuru (talk) 18:06, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
No, it should stay here (although there may be a better title). There are a large number of people who question the safety of aspartame and they have received some notability. We have other separate articles about fringe theories, e.g,, truthers and birthers, which should remain separate. TFD (talk) 18:20, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
Both this article and the main article are short. QuackGuru (talk) 18:22, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
I think that any fair coverage of the history of the public controversy would completely overwhelm the main article. I will concede, though, that creating additional spinout articles would probably be ill-conceived. - 2/0 (cont.) 20:35, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
I think two articles is about right. If anything, the aspartame article probably has a little too much about the approval/safety that is redundant to the information in the controversy article. I also agree that any further spinout articles would be less than ideal; if anything, we should trim content here first if size is an issue. Yobol (talk) 21:56, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

If we were to rename it, how about 'Aspartame Safety Controversy'? Dbrodbeck (talk) 00:31, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it's necessary to rename it.Yobol (talk) 01:36, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

The validity of these claims has been examined and dismissed.

"Critics allege that conflicts of interest marred the FDA's approval of aspartame, question the quality of the initial research supporting its safety, and postulate that numerous health risks may be associated with aspartame.

The validity of these claims has been examined and dismissed."

Where exactly in the four sources cited is this claim verified? I didn't catch that in any of them. 3/4 focus solely on Nancy Markle's hoax. КĐ 18:19, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

The ref I added (ref to Magnuson's review) was added because you said there wasn't anything showing safety. It has now been added. What part of the above do you think is not referenced? Yobol (talk) 20:30, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
As presently phrased, the last statement directly implies (when referring to "these claims") that "The validity of has been examined and dismissed." Where in the four cited sources can we verify this? I read no such thing in any of them. It definitely looks like OR/SYN, with references to Markle's hoax giving the statement undue weight.КĐ 00:46, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
Added the GAO report ref (which found the FDA adequately followed its own approval process) and the safety issues are addressed by the Magnuson ref I added earlier. Removed two Markle refs from the lead, as they were largely extraneous anyways. Yobol (talk) 01:28, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Neutral Point of View

I must state that in its current state, this article breaks Misplaced Pages's policy of WP:NPOV. This must be fixed immediately. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.187.58.68 (talk) 01:20, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
Specifically where? Dbrodbeck (talk) 02:03, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

There is no neutral point view when it comes to controversies.Kmarinas86 (Expert Sectioneer of Misplaced Pages) 03:13, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

There must be a neutral point of view in all wikipedia articles. "Specifically Where?" For starters: The validity of these claims has been examined and dismissed.
From wp:weasel
"Claims about what people say, think, feel, or believe, and what has been shown, demonstrated, or proven should be clearly attributed."
Jmpunit (talk) 09:04, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
"From wp:weasel" "Claims about what people say, think, feel, or believe, and what has been shown, demonstrated, or proven should be clearly attributed." Weasel wording exists in this. How ironic!Kmarinas86 (Expert Sectioneer of Misplaced Pages) 13:29, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
And so the following: The validity of these claims has been examined and dismissed Jmpunit (talk) 06:47, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
While it would be wrong for us to go through the literature and conclude that the claims have been dismissed, we may say that if that conclusion can be reliably sourced. Neutrality does not mean we give parity to the critics of aspartamestudies that have questioned the safety of aspartame. TFD (talk) 15:12, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
Why have you decided that a scientist who publishes a negative finding about aspartame, such as that it can cause headaches in some people, is a "critic" of aspartame? Your assumptions are absurd. TickleMeister (talk) 15:24, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
Neutrality does not mean we give parity to either side. This sentence needs to specify who has dismissed the claims in order to be neutral. Jmpunit (talk) 06:56, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
Since there is scientific consensus that there is no evidence that aspartame is unsafe, it would be misleading to name individuals and groups who have made this claim because it would imply doubt about their conclusions. Imagine if we did that on articles about 911, flying saucers, astrology, the moon landing hoax, etc. TFD (talk) 13:44, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
To imply that it would be misleading to CLARIFY the statement "The validity of these claims has been examined and dismissed." is fallacious. Jmpunit (talk) 05:30, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
The people who has discredited the claims are noted in the sources (in-line cited). More can be added if necessary, but would seem excessive.Yobol (talk) 13:50, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
Yes it is necessary to attribute the claims made in this sentence. Jmpunit (talk) 05:32, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
No, it's not. Per WP:LEAD, the lead is a summary of the body of the article. If the reader wants to find out who has dismissed the claims, they should read the inline citations or the body of the article. Attribution in the lead would be redundant and is not necessary. PS: Learn to indent. Yobol (talk) 05:34, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
Your post script is redundant. From wp: lead "While consideration should be given to creating interest in reading more of the article, the lead nonetheless should not "tease" the reader by hinting at—but not explaining—important facts that will appear later in the article". Jmpunit (talk) 06:35, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
It doesn't "tease". You are certainly welcome to try to get consensus that it does, though, to change the lead. Good luck with that. Yobol (talk) 14:29, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Jmpunit, I don't know what you mean by "redundant" in your not-very-helpful reply to a reasonable request, but I have fixed the formatting issue for readability's sake, per WP:REFACTOR. Now try to get with the program and be cooperative.

The statement has just been tweaked, but the refs are still there and have been there the whole time you've been complaining, so why are you complaining? The statement is referenced properly. Read them and see if they back up the statement. -- Brangifer (talk) 15:54, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

@TFD: SCientific consensus by whom? who is involved in this consensus? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.68.50.138 (talk) 17:23, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
Have you tried reading the article? Yobol (talk) 17:26, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
TFD, since those words aren't used in the article, answering that question is likely to lead to violations of WP:TALK, so you don't have to answer. We need to stay on-topic. I suggest the IP read the article and do their own homework. There are plenty of references to the many scientific and other instances that have rejected the conspiracy theories about Aspartame. -- Brangifer (talk) 18:57, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

@Bull: In the only two posts that you have given on this page (excluding archives) you have altered my post, were rude about it by saying I was complaining (even though the concern that this sentence brings is shared by many and has independently been brought up here numerous times), and told me to "get with the program" which means absolutely nothing. In your second post you told another editor what to do. Talk about "not-very-helpful" and "off topic" (and scarce).

"The statement is referenced properly." It's not the references that are the problem as much as the actual statement itself. NUMEROUS editors have raised concerns that the sentence "The validity of these claims has been examined and dismissed." is misleading as it does not say who has examined and dismissed concerns about aspartame. This gives the impression that ALL concerns have been examined and DISMISSED, yet this is not true. I find it strange that some would be so adamantly opposed to clarifying this statement, that such strong conviction could come from such a fragile argument as redundancy. Jmpunit (talk) 06:10, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

I never altered your post, but did standard housekeeping, per established practice here. Everything was preserved in the proper order and no meaning was changed. You had been requested to learn to indent by two different editors but hadn't done it, so I did it for you. That's what I meant by "get with the program". You should thank me for helping you. We do things in a certain way here and it's best to learn quickly, especially when politely asked to do so.
I monitor this page, so don't be concerned about the frequency or infrequency with which I actually comment. I currently "have 4,628 pages on your watchlist (excluding talk pages)", so I don't comment on all of them all the time. In my second post I informed a more experienced editor of their options. They can do whatever they want now that they have been reminded of a potential trap. It was helpful advice. We do this often on talk pages. We try to help each other.
Your concerns about the actual statement have been addressed and rebuffed many times. Until you actually read the article and study those references, I fear you will continue to flog this dead horse. That's disruptive. Please read the article and references, as I politely requested above. You will find abundant mention of "who" has examined and dismissed which claims. The references are in the lead and throughout the body of the article.
You state: "This gives the impression that ALL concerns have been examined and DISMISSED, yet this is not true." Please be specific about which concerns that haven't been examined and dismissed. Maybe we can work together on this. I'm curious. -- Brangifer (talk) 06:34, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

The dictionary defines "alter" as "to make different in some particular, as size, style, course, or the like; modify: to alter a coat; to alter a will; to alter course." To say that you did not alter my post is a blatant lie. There are more polite ways of getting your point across than telling someone to "get with the program". Such petty cliches will not help your cause. You also sound arrogant when you say "we do things a certain way here" as if you are the spokesperson for the pro-aspartame controversy movement. Since you boast about being an experienced editor with your numbers it would be safe to assume that you have read WP:CIVIL. I suggest that you revisit that page to gain a better understanding on how to speak to other editors. One is more likely to listen to someone who is polite (without pretending) than one who is antagonistic.

You say that my concerns (or "complaints" as you insolently call them) have been "rebuffed" but "snubbed" is a more accurate word. They are immediately shot down without a valid explanation. To say that it is redundant to clarify the sentence in question is not valid. A stronger case must be made if you want to keep it as is. Jmpunit (talk) 02:50, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

In my last comment I offered you a way forward. I'm willing to cooperate if you'll just be specific, but you're choosing to dwell on imagined petty slights. Whatever. I altered the indents, not your post. Read the link I provided which explains that this is allowed. Please comment on content, not other editors. Stop treating Misplaced Pages as a battleground.
Otherwise you'll have to get a consensus here to make that change, and you're not getting it. The fact that your comments have repeatedly been rebuffed/snubbed by multiple editors is proof that you don't have a consensus. That's how things work here. You win some and you lose some. I suggest you either drop the matter or pursue dispute resolution. -- Brangifer (talk) 05:41, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Take your own advice (battleground) and help yourself before you try to "help" others. When I am treated rudely I have a tendency to respond. Don't pretend to "offer" me anything, I already gave you a specific reason on why this sentence needs to be clarified (several times). So again I ask: What OTHER reason(s) is there for not attributing the sentence, "The validity of these claims has been examined and dismissed."? Jmpunit (talk) 06:12, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

It is attributed in the references. Since it's a statement in the lead, it really doesn't have to have references right there since it refers to referenced content in the body of the article. By reading the article and the supplied references, you'll get an answer to your question. It isn't the job of other editors to do your homework, but we're trying to point you in the right direction. -- Brangifer (talk) 07:16, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

No I mean other points besides redundancy. To say that the reader is required to discover information outside of the text in order to gather an understanding of the article is absurd; there should be no hidden points that the reader must search for. This is not a scavenger hunt, it is a wikipedia article. All points that are discussed need to be attributed in the article. Also the references themselves should not be grouped together: GAO report (US government), a newspaper (media is not reliable enough to discredit scientific studies), and an article on about.com that deals with a "hoax" letter (instead of the actual studies that have shown adverse effects of the sweetener). Please state a VALID reason why the statement should not be clarified. Jmpunit (talk) 10:18, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Ever write an essay in highschool? You lay out the points you're GOING to make in your introduction, and then actually make them in the body paragraphs. If you ram everything into the lede, you're going to get a D (or an unreadable article). Honestly, this is like complaining that an article mentions that someone has died in the lead, but doesn't say HOW until the body. It just doesn't matter. No one is required to go outside the text- they just have to read the whole thing. We aren't Cliff's Notes. --King Öomie 14:19, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
Check your attitude Oomie, this is not a high school essay. Instead of mouthing off to editors in belligerent posts try addressing the questions. Since you know so much about writing essays this should be a breeze. You make a gross exaggeration by accusing me of trying "to RAM EVERYTHING into the lead". I simply want clarification for one sentence, especially since this sentence which now reads "These claims have been examined and were later dismissed as invalid." is supported by three sources that must be justified: The last source is focused on the old "hoax" letter and is outdated. The second source is a review headed by Magnuson, B. A. who is paid by Coca-Cola to make trips and speak about the sweetener (conflict of interest). The first source is from 1987 and is also outdated as many studies have been conducted since. If you can't engage in discussion of the issue then there is no need for you to post anything (especially belligerent remarks that have nothing to do with this article). Jmpunit (talk) 01:00, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
Jmpunit is correct, the statement is backed up by ludicrous sources, as has been raised numerous times before, and no, not rebuffed. However, getting any changes to this article, and the aspartame article, that could even be perceived as negative to aspartame seems strangely difficult. The points tend to be misunderstood, answered with straw men or not answered at all, and any changes reverted with sarcastic commentary. Comments such as "it really doesn't have to have references right", as made by Brangifer above, perhaps sum up the result well. In the case of aspartame, there was a recent discussion where editors insisted information must be sourced outside the article. Anyway, the sentence in question here, backed up by a rebuttal of a hoax, a 1987 source, and an industry study, clearly has no merit cited in the way it is and "really doesn't have the references right". This state seems acceptable to most here, but Jmpunit, if you can suggest a better alternative I will support you, but be prepared for virulent objections and wild accusations. Greenman (talk) 09:09, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
Greenman, if you're going to quote me, please don't misquote me by leaving out the critical word "there", which makes a big difference. If there's anyone who believes in proper sourcing, it's me. -- Brangifer (talk) 04:10, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
Thank you. It's nice to receive a courteous reply. Currently we await the rebuttals of the concerns already addressed. If they do not come consensus will be assumed. Jmpunit (talk) 10:10, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
"but be prepared for virulent objections and wild accusations." -This is courtesy? --King Öomie 13:59, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
You're just proving my point with comments like that. Jmpunit (talk) 03:06, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
You will not assume consensus, when it is plain that there is none. This ongoing approach of ignoring the discussion and then proclaiming you will act by fiat is not appropriate. The assertion that Critical Reviews in Toxicology can be dismissed as a source for toxicology holds no water. If you think that the journal should withdraw the article, convince its editors. Until then, it is a reliable source for medical claims on Misplaced Pages. The GAO report cannot be considered outdated since it is also the source for so many of the allegations which were clearly dismissed by the time it was published.Novangelis (talk) 11:19, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
Let's take one at a time. About.com, much like Misplaced Pages, may reference other reliable sources, and be a useful starting point, but it's is not a reliable source . Any objections to dropping that reference? Greenman (talk) 20:44, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
Opinions seem to vary as to whether about.com is reliable or not, though it points more towards the reliable than unreliable according to this discussion. I see nothing particularly unreliable about it, especially since other references we have back it up. Yobol (talk) 21:18, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
While you may object to the choice of source, you cannot make a silk purse from a sow's ear. The Nancy Markle hoax email will remain a hoax. You can only object about which of the numerous sources will be selected for the lede out of the various sources cited, not the content, so that argument is hollow. Just for fun, here's another.Novangelis (talk) 04:35, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Consensus is assumed when there is no reply however this is now not the case. The Magnuson review was funded by Ajinomoto (manufacturer of the sweetener) and Magnuson herself is paid to give talks on the safety of aspartame. This reeks of conflict of interest which in itself compromises the integrity of the review. The Searle studies are another example of ethically questionable publications. On the 60 minutes report titled "How sweet is it?" former senator Howard M. Metzenbaum stated regarding the Searle studies, "According to the FDA themselves Searle in making their presentation to the FDA had willfully misrepresented the facts and had withheld some of the facts that they knew would possibly jeopardize the approval of the product." So no it is not a reliable source.

The GAO report does not examine the scientific or safety issues of aspartame and is therefore not a reliable medical source. The about.com source is similar to a wikipedia article; anyone can write for it. It is therefore not a reliable source. Thus the newly revised sentence "These claims have been examined and were later dismissed as invalid." is in need of serious editing. Jmpunit (talk) 04:42, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Again, the Magnuson review is peer-reviewed and supported by practically every other review in the medical literature. Attacking the review as if it is an outlier when it is only one of many that say the same thing is dubious. The GAO report and Markle review only note other parts of the controversy that have been looked at and dismissed. Please review WP:LEAD; we summarize what's in the lead, we don't rehash everything in detail. Yobol (talk) 04:51, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
If there are many reviews that come to the same conclusion as the Magnuson review and they are independent (not reviewed by one that has a conflict of interest as is the case with Magnuson) please provide them.Jmpunit (talk) 10:27, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
You mean besides the over 100 government agencies that say aspartame is safe for use? Have you even read this article? Yobol (talk) 14:37, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
You know I have so don't be rude. Is a statement made by a government agency considered a reliable medical source? Jmpunit (talk) 22:48, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
Are you seriously asking if the FDA or the EFSA is a reliable source for whether or not a food additive is toxic? Yobol (talk) 02:53, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
Engaging in speculation (WP:No original research) and potentially violating WP:Biographies of living persons is improper. Attacking one author and ignoring the fact that there were other authors on the panel is improper. Insinuations do not revoke published data. Again, this is not a Misplaced Pages issue. Good luck convincing the journal to withdraw the article.
Guess who the GAO reported to: Howard M. Metzenbaum. Thank you for establishing its relevance.Novangelis (talk) 05:13, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
No this conflict of interest is not speculation, it's a fact. It would be the same as if there was a trial where the plaintiff was suing Ajinomoto for damages because ingestion of aspartame had caused adverse health effects and the judge presiding was a former lawyer for the corporation. This judge would be ethically obligated to remove him or her self from the case. This is not speculation but a fact. How am I potentially violating wp:biographies of living persons? Neutrality is the aim of all wikipedia articles. Since conflict of interest is oppositional to neutrality and this source is marred by conflict of interest it is an issue. I am not attacking anyone but merely pointing out that the lead author of the review is employed by a company that has interests in the sweetener.

Yes I know who the gao reported to. In the 60 minutes interview when Mike Wallace refers to the conclusion made by the gao he states, "The gao looked into all of that and they saw nothing wrong with this so called 'revolving door'." The former senator replied, "I'm not saying that there was something legally wrong. What may be legally right might be ethically questionable." One who has a basic understanding of science knows that ethics are considered very important in the discipline. -You're welcome. Jmpunit (talk) 10:27, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

And your point about some of these studies being funded by industry has been brought up before and no credence has been given to them. Please stop bringing up the same points over and over, it is disruptive.Yobol (talk) 14:37, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

You say that my points have no credence. Please be specific.Jmpunit (talk) 22:48, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

I said your objections about supposed COI tainting studies have been given no credence, as has been stated multiple times here, and if your memory fails you, a quick review of the talk page archive can refresh your memory. This disruptive WP:IDHT behavior needs to stop. Yobol (talk) 02:53, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
Disruptive and a BLP violation. The expert panel was employed by a firm which did not reveal who was funding it. Anything that happened after the panel does affect the content of the report. To imply that the science was skewed, especially when you omit the fact that the funding was anonymized, is a violation of BLP -- an accusation of corruption. Again, if you can prove it, the correct approach is to take your findings to the editorial board of the journal. If they concur and withdraw, you made the case. It is not a Misplaced Pages matter; the published expert opinion is considered valid. It's interesting that you take the views of one politician at face value; are you saying they never get speaking fees?Novangelis (talk) 15:01, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
This is not a biography and Magnuson is only briefly mentioned in the article. Your accusation is therefore invalid. You imply that Metzenbaum's statement is questionable because of his speaking fees yet you are willing to take Magnuson's statement at "face value" even when she is known to receive speaking fees from a company that has heavy interests in the sweetener. This is illogical.Jmpunit (talk) 22:48, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
I don't see Novangelis imply any such thing, he was merely pointing out that it's inconsistent to say one can't trust people who get paid for giving talks and then citing a politician even though they're just as likely to get speaking fees. In most fields you'll only have a handful of real experts. Those are often invited to give talks, and yes, they're getting paid for that, just like you would if you were an expert on something and gave a talk. About the BLP issue: WP:BLP applies to every page on Misplaced Pages, so if you make allegations about someone like implying they are manipulating studies because they're getting paid to do so, that's a BLP issue everywhere on Misplaced Pages. You've been told (many times already) that Magnuson wasn't the only author of this review, so we're not even taking “her” statement at “face value”, we're citing a review with multiple authors that was published in a highly respectable toxicology journal - we couldn't ask for a better source. Additionally, we have reports of several government agencies who were reviewing all data available and came to a similar conclusion. Whether you like it or not: this is the mainstream opinion. Six words (talk) 23:54, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
Controversies are never "mainstream opinions", hence the meaning of this article. We have a controversial sweetener where independent researchers find health issues and the industry denying that. Look at the history of products that turned out to be unhealthy. It usually starts with the governments approving them, then as the list of victims grows, the industry starts the denial process and the governments are the last ones to acknowledge it. Perhaps the scientists involved in Magnuson's review were never informed about the sponsor Ajinomoto. But Ajinomoto hired the Burdock Group to manufacture the review. Maybe we should mention the facts that this is a lobby group for the Food Industry. GA Burdock is a consultant. He has worked many years for the Tobacco Industry where he was paid millions for reviews that showed no adverse reactions to smoking (official documents disclosed that). Burdock's slogan: "To find out more about how we can help bring your product to market quickly and effectively, contact Burdock Group today for a complimentary consultation." We shouldn't write a naive article about the assumed neutrality of the industry regarding the safety of their product. Neutrality comes from independent researchers. Immortale (talk) 17:05, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
No, let's not do that, that's against consensus. Almost all high quality secondary reviews in the literature says it's safe (as well as the independent review of over 90 government agencies). It is not your or my role to cherry pick out specific studies to suggest otherwise, and it would be against our guidelines to do so. Yobol (talk) 17:47, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
(edit conflict)I strongly disagree about there being no mainstream opinion about aspartame, but that's beside the point. We're not citing a Burdock press release, we're citing a review that is published in a high quality scientific journal. Before publishing, this review itself was reviewed by other scientists (neither paid by Ajinomoto nor by Burdock), who seem to have found it OK, so that's what we have to assume, too. Six words (talk) 17:52, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Aspartame administered in feed, beginning prenatally through life span, induces cancers of the liver and lung in male Swiss mice

Another piece of independent research showing the carcinogenic effects of aspartame. See: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajim.20896/abstract Immortale (talk) 21:14, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is is based on secondary sources and this is especially true in medical articles. The reliable secondary sources (medical literature reviews) show that aspartame is safe, and does not cause cancer at doses used as sweetener. We do not rebut secondary reviews with primary studies, especially primary studies done on animals. Please familiarize yourself with WP:MEDRSYobol (talk) 21:21, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
So all research that shows aspartame is safe is reliable and all research that shows aspartame is not safe is unreliable? Is that the policy here? And it's just a coincidence that all industry-sponsored research shows no dangers with aspartame? Or as the industry mentioned it: all independent research is based on quackery. And this article is not just a medical article, it also needs to report the controversy. And what's wrong with the "American Journal of Industrial Medicine". Immortale (talk) 11:14, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
Primary sources do not trump reviews. Dbrodbeck (talk) 12:50, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
Let me quote from WP:MEDRS: "Reliable primary sources may occasionally be used with care as an adjunct to the secondary literature, but there remains potential for misuse. For that reason, edits that rely on primary sources should only describe the conclusions of the source, and should describe these findings clearly so the edit can be checked by editors with no specialist knowledge." And this one: "Whenever writing about medical claims not supported by mainstream research, it is vital that third-party, independent sources be used." And why is this article interpreted as a medicine? Aspartame is a food-additive. Could anyone point to a wikipedia rule that food additives should be interpreted as medicine? Immortale (talk) 18:32, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
You are discussing medical claims. Medical claims are held to the standard, regardless of the article, just as the "biography of living persons" applies to all articles.Novangelis (talk) 18:39, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
MEDRS basically covers any biomedical and health claims. That obviously applies here where there are claims being circulated that Aspartame causes people to drop dead like flies every day. (Yes, the one who started the conspiracy theory says that.) -- Brangifer (talk) 18:41, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
Again, please point to a wiki rule about this because what you're saying might as well be your own private opinions. And Brangifer, no reliable source claims that people drop dead like flies every day because of Aspartame. Please keep out the ridicule. Immortale (talk) 18:58, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
Where did I say that a RS claims people drop dead? I was addressing what ordinary people who believe the conspiracy theories against aspartame are told by B.M. and why they end up at this article. -- Brangifer (talk) 21:37, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
Are you seriously claiming that inferring or suggesting aspartame causes cancer, as you seem to be advocating, isn't a medical claim?Yobol (talk) 19:00, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)The "wiki rule" would be WP:MEDRS. Its lead reads:
Misplaced Pages's articles, while not intended to provide medical advice, are nonetheless an important and widely used source of health information. Therefore, it is vital that biomedical information in articles be based on reliable published sources and accurately reflect current medical knowledge. (IOW: it applies to all biomedical/health claims, as Brangifer said). It also tells us we have to respect secondary sources, i.e. reviews (= what Dbrodbeck said). --Six words (talk) 19:27, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that anyone is suggesting that we write in wikipedias voice that aspartame causes cancer, what is being suggested is that we mention what specific studies have concluded. un☯mi 19:36, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
Or, we could stick to what the reviews say. I guess we could do an exhaustive literature search and mention every paper published in the area. It seems better, and in line with policy, to stick with the secondary sources. Dbrodbeck (talk) 20:26, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
I am a bit concerned about recentism here, as is often the case with recently published primary studies. The phrase No carcinogenic effects were observed in female mice in the abstract makes me especially leery of citing this paper without confirmation from the rest of the research community that this is an interesting and relevant result.
As for WP:MEDRS, it obviously applies to most of this article. The exception, I would say, would be in covering what partisans consider important. If someone comes out with an influential book citing this research, I would not have a problem citing it in that context. - 2/0 (cont.) 20:42, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
Indeed. This is not only recent primary research, it's from the same people behind the debunked Ramazzini studies.
See also this commentary on this newest production from them: Study flawed linking aspartame to cancer, carcinogenicity protocol not followed -- Brangifer (talk) 21:37, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
Please, do not refer to www.aspartame.org as it is a PR website owned by "The Calorie Control Council", ("representing the low-calorie food and beverage industry"). It's so full of false statements and plain lies, that no researcher takes this seriously. It makes me wonder about the COI of people here, when they are so faithful towards the food industry. The Ramazinni Institute, a very prestigious and highly esteemed research center is being doubted while a industry PR website is being trusted. Apparently Misplaced Pages is not about truth, but don't make it that obvious. Immortale (talk) 22:32, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
Please assume good faith. Assuming people that disagree with you are industry shills is hardly assuming good faith. Dbrodbeck (talk) 22:56, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
How long am I supposed to assume good faith? This here is going on for several years now. Immortale (talk) 08:50, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
As long as it's the policy here. If you can't do that, then leave and don't come back. You could just as well be an editor paid by the sugar industry and the diabetes industry, since your efforts help them. (Follow the money...) How's that for a COI to have hanging over your head? What if we constantly said that about you, without an ounce of proof, just as you do to us? Do you like it when I say that? How do you think the rest of us feel when you imply that we are somehow in league with or supporting the aspartame industry? That's nonsense. I have no special liking for the stuff and avoid it, preferring a little bit of sugar in my coffee. My editing here is guided by our policies. Get used to it and stop your assumptions of bad faith and innuendos. We've been hearing this from you for far too long. It's about time you stop it or be stopped. -- Brangifer (talk) 09:19, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Well, I can understand Immortales frustration - using a website that I think it is fair to say represents vested interests to counter a study published in a peer reviewed journal is not really something that would normally be attempted. un☯mi 09:53, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

That study is contradicted by multiple reviews and independent evaluation by over 100 governmental agencies. To portray this as independent researcher vs. corporate interest is a basic misunderstanding of how science works and how we are supposed to build a serious encyclopedia. We use secondary sources (reviews) precisely because we should not cherry pick one out of hundreds of studies that have been done. If you find another review, please feel free to add it to the article, but let's not waste everyone's time or insult anyone's intelligence to suggest one study in mice is somehow going to overturn the consensus that aspartame is safe in humans, ok? Yobol (talk) 15:31, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
Please assume good faith, you seem to be intimating that I wish to use it to dramatically change the narrative of our article, indeed I do not, but to me it seems that the research has been undertaken in light of the controversy and indeed contributes to it. To argue that we should not cover the elements of the controversy strikes me as working against the task we are charged with. I am not sure what you mean with: "To portray this as independent researcher vs. corporate interest is a basic misunderstanding of how science works". Please remain calm ;) un☯mi 21:00, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
I am calm, thank you. You seem to not understand that including every single study in this article may place undue weight on each study with respect to its prominence in the medical literature and that we need to rely on secondary sources (i.e. review articles) to tell us which journal articles/concepts have enough prominence to mention here. This is why the Ramazzini studies have such prominence in this WP article; they are prominently mentioned in multiple secondary sources. This is why we rely on secondary sources. Please respect this. Yobol (talk) 00:49, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
Unomi, you and Immortale have been in trouble before (even to the point of sockpuppet accusations) because of your nearly identical POV, but that's not any reason to block or ban either of you. Sharing a POV isn't wrong, but it would be more helpful if you would use your obviously superior (to Immortale's) intelligence to help Immortale see they are barking up the wrong tree with their approach here. Help them follow policy. Don't back them up by using fallacious arguments. Showing sympathy to such people only encourages them and it implicates you in their disruptiveness. You then get tarred and feathered because of guilt by association. Sure, it's not fair, but that's life, so I suggest you distance yourself from Immortale and side with Misplaced Pages's policies. -- Brangifer (talk) 18:02, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
Yes, when I first started on wikipedia there were editors, you included as I remember, who tried to get me banned, I am not quite sure how that is germane to the current discussion, as I remember the result of that was that the WP:OWN issues were, at least temporarily, resolved and GAO-HR87 was no longer blacklisted from the article. I find it somewhat disappointing that you employ language and themes which could well be interpreted as bullying attempts, both towards me and Immortale. I would suggest that you stop acting in a manner which could be construed as such and you discuss the matter civilly, as a long term editor I think that it would behoove you to set a better example for newer editors, it would be a shame if people got the impression that you were enabling poor behavior. I think that all parties should strive to remain calm, and stick to what has actually been said rather than argue all sorts of imagined POVs and motivations. un☯mi 21:00, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
My point is that instead of encouraging Immortale, IOW "enabling poor behavior", you should be encouraging them to follow our policies, especially NPA and AGF. -- Brangifer (talk) 21:20, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
My appeal above: "I think that all parties should strive to remain calm, and stick to what has actually been said rather than argue all sorts of imagined POVs and motivations." covers Immortale as well, I don't know what you mean by 'encouraging Immortale', your use of CCC.org to discredit the study and the Ramazzini foundation was clearly ill considered. un☯mi 11:50, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
Your comment above implies I would use the link in the article. Of course not. I only provided it as a source which debunks that research and shows that the Ramazzini foundation isn't so good as supporters of the aspartame hoax would believe. It's really lousy. They need to learn how science works, do quality control, and allow other scientists to examine their work. They remind me of the shoddy work done by the homeopathetic "researcher" (now dead) Jacques Benveniste, who pushed his water memory nonsense using shoddy research. At least he finally allowed his lab to be examined and things weren't done properly there, either. Immortale's reaction to that source seemed to indicate that they didn't even bother to read it. Too bad, because they make some good points. Ramazzini and Sofretti are scientifically unreliable. -- Brangifer (talk) 18:02, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
That is the problem though, it does not debunk anything, it should not even be used in the talkpage discussion, and certainly not be sought to be used to discredit a journal article, I find it entirely understandable why doing so would be met with incredulity. All that link contains are a loose collection of claims, the veracity or impact on the final study they are neither an RS for or understood to be knowledgeable of, it is an unsigned, unattributed web page on a site that is understood to "support the availability of Aspartame". I think you should consider your words and sources more carefully as you seem to be skirting the line of a WP:BLPTALK violation. un☯mi 21:00, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
We are discussing the use of a recent and unduplicated primary study by Ramazzini. That's very much on topic for this page. That there are objections to using that source is very germane, and our exchange (including various unpleasantries) has been in that context. That's unfortunate, and I'll try to stay more focused. Will you please help Immortale to do the same and not attack other editors? We're getting tired of it. We are no more representatives for Monsanto and aspartame than Immortale and you are for the sugar and diabetes industries. Baseless COI accusations by Immortale don't belong here. -- Brangifer (talk) 21:20, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Bringing the discussion back to the topic at hand (whether the addition of this particular study would improve this article) ...

Unomi, I think that the problem lies with to me it seems that... On controversial articles, we need to be especially careful to cover the controversy without engaging in it ourselves. I think that, at this point, we seem to have a consensus that we should adopt a "wait and see" attitude with respect to this potential source. Yes? - 2/0 (cont.) 23:13, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree that we need to be careful about how we present material, failing to do so would indeed make us fail to cover it adequately rather than taking part of the conflict. As I state in the sentence you quote: "but to me it seems that the research has been undertaken in light of the controversy and indeed contributes to it. To argue that we should not cover the elements of the controversy strikes me as working against the task we are charged with." The Ramazinni institute and Soffritti, as well as other research bodies, continue to publish research that are pertinent to the topic at hand, but we have to be careful about how we present this in the article. un☯mi 11:50, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
Brangifer, you're evasive and are not discussing facts. This isn't about me. It's about the controversy. And we need to have independent sources and recognize that the industry has defended their interests with all means to protect their unhealthy product. If you have accusations because the source I quote has financial ties with the sugar industry, please mention them, but we're not writing about sugar here. That you also mention both Unomi and I have had accusations thrown at us in the past, is inappropriate in this discussion and as you know we were fully cleared from any of the accusations and if I remember well, you and your buddies were almost banned because of continuous bullying us anyway. I follow wikipedia guidelines, if you think I'm not, follow the necessary procedure. I haven't added anything in the article that I haven't discussed here. What are you actually suggesting? That critics are not welcome here in the talk page/ article and you want everyone to agree with your POV? And we have mentioned many times that www.aspartame.org is an industry PR site. I'm supposed to keep good faith while you keep mentioning it over and over again? The Ramazzini Institute is a collaboration of the Collegium Ramazzini, an international academy of more than 180 members from 32 countries, experts in the field of occupational diseases and environmental medicine. Hardly anything to compare with Jacques Benveniste (who has nothing to do with this article). We'll wait and see... Immortale (talk) 09:21, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Note to editors trying to edit in some balance: when I have come across trenchant opposition, on other wp articles, to the inclusion of material that in all fairness should be there, the cause has turned out to be (I later found out through private communications) that legal threats had been made to the foundation. I'm not saying that this is definitely the case here, but I note the fierce opposition to any edits that would balance this article, and I note that The Independent has printed a legal warning on it's aspartame articles to the effect that: "LEGAL NOTE: Please do not publish articles about the alleged dangers of aspartame without contacting the legal department and the aspartame information website " etc. So I submit to my fellow editors that trying to edit this article may be a complete waste of your time. TickleMeister (talk) 01:20, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Or, we could follow policy and assume good faith.. I would wager none of us here has anything to do with the wiki foundation (I assume that is what you are referring to). That that is in the Independent is quite independent of us here. In fact, it is irrelevant. Dbrodbeck (talk) 01:36, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
These are from 1993, 1994, and 1996. One is even cited by BM (promoter of the original hoax email). Pretty irrelevant now! That sounds very bizarre considering the most strident conspiracy theorists write very openly about it, with some pretty outrageous claims that are very libelous (except one can't libel an institution or company), and they aren't threatened with lawsuits. I've never heard of this, even from them, and I've exchanged dozens (hundreds?) of emails with them. Whatever the case, it has no effect on us. Misplaced Pages is uncensored and we just follow policy, publishing uncensored information from RS in a well-documented and encyclopedic manner. Anyone threatening Misplaced Pages or its editors with lawsuits usually gets blocked immediately. Any website which outs or threatens Misplaced Pages editors is placed on its blacklist. All editors should be able to edit without fear. Just follow policy and all is well. -- Brangifer (talk) 05:59, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is in regular receipt of legal threats. That is a fact. TickleMeister (talk) 00:05, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Duh?! Of course. Nothing new there, but we weren't discussing that now were we? We were discussing articles in a British newspaper from 1993, 1994, and 1996, where there was some interesting wording, but no evidence that a legal threat existed. It's old and it doesn't relate to us at all. Your attempt to discourage editors from editing this article is very misguided ("So I submit to my fellow editors that trying to edit this article may be a complete waste of your time.").
If there is anything current we should know, then tell us, otherwise that old stuff is irrelevant information. -- Brangifer (talk) 00:46, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Open mind

I think we should keep an open mind on all possibilities. To that end I posted a web page on aspartame experiences at http://www.aspartametestimonials.com/. Also perhaps someone can explain to me how experiments with rodents can ever approximate a 20 or 30 human year exposure. Arydberg (talk) 03:13, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

I suggest you look up confounding and anecdotal evidence. Also consider (1) why these people would even get the idea that aspartame might cause their problems and consider (2) who might have gotten them to think in that manner. I know you have previously stated that you think these are "testimonials". Call them what you will, but they aren't usable as "evidence" in a scientific sense, and in fact can be worse than useless because they can be very misleading considering the inspiration for them doing this in the first place. I'm not referring to you but to the prime mover and main activist on the internet, IOW the initial spreader of the hoax email. -- Brangifer (talk) 03:53, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
Anecdotes often refer to the exception, rather than the rule: "Anecdotes are useless precisely because they may point to idiosyncratic responses." Pediatric Allergy & Immunology, 1999, Nov;10(4) 226-234 Even when many anecdotes are collected to prove a point, "The plural of anecdote is not data." Roger Brinner -- Brangifer (talk) 04:03, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
Please answer my question. "Also perhaps someone can explain to me how experiments with rodents can ever approximate a 20 or 30 human year exposure." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arydberg (talk • contribs) 14:06, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
You're in the wrong place. This talk page is for discussing improvements to the article. Misplaced Pages has a WP:Reference desk where questions from the public can be asked. Try there. -- Brangifer (talk) 16:46, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Your use of the term anecdotal is misleading. It implies these are third and forth hand stores when in fact they are personal experiences. Also this is an article about a controversy all you do is present one side.Arydberg (talk) 13:16, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

a single story is an anecdote. People think all kinds of things, it does not make their thoughts useful at all. Dbrodbeck (talk) 13:20, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
Normally, I would challenge you to take it to a noticeboard, but since you already have and were soundly rebuffed, any protracted efforts to re-argue your case here will be treated as disruptive. Trying to characterize a classic example of anecdotal evidence as anything else, by virtue of semantics, will not help your case.Novangelis (talk) 14:55, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

All I am trying to point out is that all the studies as well as the very existence of the FDA is to prevent people from becoming sick. My website lists over 100 testaments from people who have become sick from this substance. Does this count for anything? After all this page is not about aspartame but is about the aspartame controversy. Arydberg (talk) 16:07, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

No, these anecdotes count as nothing, these people do not know what made themselves sick. If this site is indeed yours, you are also in a conflict of interest. Dbrodbeck (talk) 16:10, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
Have you read any of the accounts? Arydberg (talk) 16:20, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
It doesn't matter. This is an article discussion page, not a soapbox. Your self-published website is of no use to the article, nor will it ever be, so simply put, enough is enough.Novangelis (talk) 16:40, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Arydberg, I'm surprised you haven't heeded some of the advice and cautions you've heard, and I'm also worried that your failure to understand our WP:RS, WP:V, WP:OR and WP:SYNTH policies will end up getting you blocked for disruption. Please stop misusing Misplaced Pages. This is not a blog, discussion group, free webhost, soapbox, or a place to use your website as a reference. It won't happen. If you wish to retain your rights to edit, please find some other topic and avoid confrontations with other editors. If you take the advice of more experienced editors you'll do fine.

BTW, I have read many of those accounts and many like them for many years. You're not the only one who solicits and collects them. No website which collects such reports would ever be considered a RS here. They are all the websites of conspiracy theorists and/or fringe groups and individuals. -- Brangifer (talk) 17:23, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Damn. You found me out. Was it the tin foil hat? Arydberg (talk) 20:24, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

history section

I would like to add this link to the history. link Arydberg (talk) 02:34, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Unpublished materials in repositories do not meet the requirement as reliable sources.Novangelis (talk) 02:44, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

What is your source for this. To me Harvard Law School seems like a respectable institution especially with sources included. Arydberg (talk) 03:25, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

It appears to be a third year paper and not published. Does not appear to meet WP:RS. Yobol (talk) 03:38, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
Well, it is in fact published, it is part of an online electronic book - I agree though that we can only use it directly attributed or perhaps as an external link. un☯mi 11:22, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
No, it is not published, nor is it part of an "electronic book". There is no editorial process. It is merely uploaded.Novangelis (talk) 11:29, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
Sometimes, especially when involved in writing an encyclopedia, it can be a good idea to do just a little bit of research, see here. There it states that the editor is one Peter Barton Hutt, coauthor of a Food Law resource referenced 8 times at Regulation_of_food_and_dietary_supplements_by_the_U.S._Food_and_Drug_Administration#cite_note-text-1. If you read the intro you will also see "Harvard Law School requires the preparation of a substantial third year paper as a condition for graduation. Some students in the food and drug law course have combined their paper for the course with the third year paper, resulting in a major analysis of a subject." and "A paper in satisfaction of the third year written work requirement is marked by an asterisk (*) in front of the student’s name.", further, if you look for the paper in the ToC you will find an asterisk (*) next to Ashley Nill's paper. So, yes, the paper was published in an online book with an editor - and the paper, while not published in a peer reviewed journal, was found to meet the standards for a required paper granting the privilege to graduate from Harvard Law, by who seems to be a notable professor in the field. un☯mi 14:18, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
The onus is upon the person presenting the information. What was proposed was a link to a repository. If you read past the table of contents, you would also discover that the book is a compilation of papers which were uploaded as they were submitted without editorial change. The criterion for inclusion was author consent. Presented as an ebook entry, it is dubious, at best.Novangelis (talk) 14:59, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
Well, as I wrote above I don't think we can use it without particular, in text, attribution if indeed at all. Nonetheless I would encourage you to read it in its entirety, should you not already have done so. un☯mi 15:37, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
From that electronic book: "All papers on food and drug law that I have received from Harvard Law School students or that I will receive in the future have been or will be included for publication in this electronic book if the student consents. Many reflect original research that is extremely valuable to the field. Some are in final publishable form. Others are more in the nature of working papers" and clearly states the "editor" chose this format to avoid actually editing these papers. It is therefore essentially a self-published source, written by a 3rd year law student, which clearly fails WP:RS and WP:SPS, and should not be included, attributed or not. Yobol (talk) 15:45, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

I must protest. You can throw out a paper from a 3rd year Harvard Law student that granted the privilege to graduate if you wish BUT to include references from an Industry sponsored group like # 19 ( ^ "Aspartame Information replies to the New York Times". Aspartame Information Service. 2006-02-16. ) is just not fair. Arydberg (talk) 19:51, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

The article clearly states that this is a rebuttal by the producers of aspartame. What's unfair about that? --Six words (talk) 23:25, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

It is disappointing that you ask. It is both self published and promotional. It is not peer reviewed. It goes against RS. From WP:RS "Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for checking the facts, or with no editorial oversight. Such sources include websites and publications expressing views that are widely acknowledged as extremist, or promotional," Please remove it. Arydberg (talk) 10:44, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

From WP:RS:

Statements of opinion
Some sources may be considered reliable for statements as to their author's opinion, but not for statements asserted as fact without an inline qualifier like "(Author) says...". A prime example of this is Op-ed columns in mainstream newspapers. When using them, it is better to explicitly attribute such material in the text to the author to make it clear to the reader that they are reading an opinion.


So again I ask, what's unfair about that (other than that you don't like what they say)? --Six words (talk) 11:27, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Yobol, This appears to be your article. What do you think? Arydberg (talk) 15:25, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Tagging each mention of "multiple reviews" with "Which?"

While I still think it's not asking too much to wait until the end of a sentence for the references, I'd like to have some input from others regarding this. Do we need to put the refs right behind "multiple reviews" or is the current position OK?Six words (talk) 10:36, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

No, we need to actually state the number of reviews, or else inline attribute the statement to a source. un☯mi 11:04, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
That seems a bit over the top, this would imply that we know exactly how many reviews are out there. I think 'multiple' is fine. Dbrodbeck (talk) 13:23, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
I can't see why imperfect knowledge prevents us from stating what we do believe we know. We are throwing around words like 'some', 'many', 'multiple' - I would expect that such statements are either directly attributable or based on actual knowledge of how many we are talking about, in any case they contravene the policies which are the grounds for creating templates such as {{Which?}} and {{quantify}}. un☯mi 13:48, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
Well, maybe it's because English is my second language so I sometimes don't notice tiny differences in meaning, but I was under the impression that saying “multiple” was just a more elegant way of saying “more than one”, especially when the exact number (in this case at least three, presumably more) is unknown. I was also under the impression that multiple and several were interchangable. Anyway, I don't see why it is important to quantify the exact number when we have three or more refs at the end of the sentence. I know you disagree on this, so let's wait and hear what others think. Six words (talk) 14:04, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
Right, the problem is that WP:WTA policy specifically prohibits this kind of vagueness, we can write of the ones that we know and add others later as research uncovers them, wikipedia is not finished, after all. un☯mi 14:38, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
All WTA asks for is attribution so the readers can asses the sources used. Since these are at the end of the sentence, I don't think there's a problem. Six words (talk) 15:22, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
Agreed with Six words and Dbrodbeck; do not see that this is a violation of WP:Weasel, and requiring this level of specificity is very much over the top. "Multiple" works just fine. Likewise, the requirement for specificity of the ADI beyond "well below" - which is the wording in the source, btw - seems peculiar to me. Yobol (talk) 15:28, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
Addendum: tagging a sentence with "Which?" when there are three sources inline cited at the end of the sentence seems peculiar to me as well. Yobol (talk) 15:33, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
The use of vague wording in the wikipedia voice is frowned upon, if you wish we can use "well below" within a direct quote from the EFSA sponsored meeting report. The same issue exists with the parts requiring the {{quantify}} tag. In the case of the reviews, I don't think that asking for the number that we are referring to is "over the top". un☯mi 05:24, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
Yobol, again, please engage on talk rather than reverting tags that seem mandated by policy - the use of vague wording is inconsistent with the tone we seek to use on wikipedia. un☯mi 13:11, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
I and two other editors have already engaged your concerns here and found them lacking. Other editors do not seem to find the wording vague at all. Consensus appears to be against tagging, so please get it before placing them back. Yobol (talk) 13:19, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Rewrite

This entire article needs to be redone. The title is the “aspartame controversy” but the subject matter describes and argues only one side of the issue.

This controversy has arisen because of large numbers of people who appear to believe that the use of aspartame has caused them bodily harm. Perhaps they are mistaken. Perhaps what they say is true. Regardless of whether they are right or not this is the controversy. This is what the article should be about.

The safety of aspartame is a true dilemma with very strong facts on both sides of the argument. It comes down to the personal testimonies of people vs repeated medical experiments. Both sides are very strong but both cannot be right.

In the end it may turn out the that the use of dogs and rodents to test for toxicity does not adequately represent the dangers inherent in the use of food additives. Or perhaps there is another explanation for this controversy.

Anyone who reviews this question is soon struck by the fanatical zeal of the industry forces that are so convinced this is a wonderful product that they will sue to prevent any disagreement. These are very powerful forces. Is it true that Misplaced Pages has been threatened with legal action?

I respectfully ask that this article be rewritten to truly describe this controversy. Arydberg (talk) 14:24, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Well, you are welcome to write an alternative in your userspace. Complete rewrites are unlikely to gain acceptance, especially in contested articles, it is better to focus on specific changes and take the discussions one at a time. un☯mi 14:48, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. For starters how do I add to the history section the link I discussed above. Also if it is removed is there a way I can be notified? Arydberg (talk) 15:12, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

"Perhaps they are mistaken. Perhaps what they say is true." SEE WP:FRINGE: "When discussing topics that reliable sources say are pseudoscientific, editors should be careful not to present those views alongside the scientific consensus as though they are equal but opposing views." TFD (talk) 17:11, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Intake from soda

I removed the paragraph about the characterization of most studies being based on soda consumption, as I'm not sure what relevance that particular fact has in the context of the other paragraphs or points raised in the review. If the reader wants to get into the details of the studies, they can read the review themselves; no need to place unnecessary details in an otherwise already large article. The information about the Netherlands was also of dubious relevance to this article and surely was an UNDUE information about one particular country. Yobol (talk) 22:22, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

This was a study considered by the EFSA meeting report that we use as a reference, the section serves as explanation for why we seem to be focusing almost exclusively on diet soda, ie that most studies consider it the main source of aspartame in diets, obviously this needs to be tempered with the fact that aspartame figures in a variety of foodstuffs. un☯mi 05:37, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
Please engage on talk rather than reverting sourced information that explains the focus of the studies. I am fairly sure that you don't believe that aspartame does not figure in a variety of foodstuffs, I cited the Netherlands study because that is the one we have at hand and because we should tell the reader which studies we are referring to. un☯mi 13:05, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
Thank you for your edit to include mention of other dietary sources. un☯mi 13:32, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

"several controversies"

My knowledge is that there is one controversy about aspartame. That it is unsafe and leads to illness vs that it is safe. The first sentence states that there are several. What are the others? Arydberg (talk) 03:41, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

  • Critics allege that conflicts of interest marred the FDA's approval of aspartame
  • question the quality of the initial research supporting its safety
  • postulate that numerous health risks may be associated with aspartame Yobol (talk) 03:44, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

To me it is all one controversy and all these are intertwined. Arydberg (talk) 12:57, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Removal of failed verification tag

Yobol, in this edit you remove the failed verification tag, indeed you remove all tags added without engaging in policy based discussion - I would urge you to reconsider the editing style you are employing. As you can see in the source that you use, EFSAExperts - at least one study indicated that at-risk children could consume more than the ADI in, as you write, worst case scenarios. The rationale for adding it was made clear in my edit summary when I added the tag. Please focus on improving the details of the text rather than removing tags or content wholesale. un☯mi 13:21, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Reviews can come to conclusions - in this case, "The SCF concluded in 2002 that high-level consumers, both adults and children, were unlikely to exceed the ADI of 40 mg/kg bw per day for aspartame. Consumption by subgroups such as diabetics who are likely to be high consumers of foods containing aspartame were also well below the ADI. The data on aspartame exposure since 2001 confirm the SCF conclusions of 2002 and the National Experts conclude that there are no indications that a population group could exceed the ADI for aspartame" - that go against one specific primary study being analyzed. I am using the conclusion of the reviewers who have analyzed the body of the data. This is why we use secondary sources such as reviews. We do not second guess the conclusions of the reviews by cherry picking one study they have analyzed and placing our own emphasis on it. Yobol (talk) 13:27, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
Note also "High intake scenarios performed by Arcella et al. (2004), Illback et al. (2003), the Norwegian Scientific Committee for Food Safety (VKM) Report (2007), and van Rooij-van den Bos et al. (2004) suggested that chronic intakes will not reach the ADI", which specifically takes Illback into consideration.Yobol (talk) 13:36, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
Nod, but do you see why "chronic intakes" is presumed to not reach the ADI for at-risk persons who are now children? Have also a look at the authors' response to request for further insight on the matter: "General consumption by adults and children was found to be below the ADI. One study taking the worst possible case for diabetics shows potential for the subgroup of diabetic children to exceed the ADI, but the authors state that this was for a small number and not by a high percentage (114% of ADI) and conclude that based on toxicological and pharmacokinetic data there is a safety margin even for high consuming diabetics." . There is no need to mention that in the article unless you insist, but I would certainly suggest that we tone down the language a bit regarding this. un☯mi 13:53, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
ADI recommendations are specifically geared toward chronic consumption so I'm not sure what your point about "chronic intake" is. I have "toned down" the wording of the worst-case scenario portion with the word "suggested" as it is used in the source. Yobol (talk) 14:10, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
The point is of course that the ADI is exceeded in those population groups, tempered by the fact that they are expected to not be in that population group indefinitely. un☯mi 14:50, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
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