Misplaced Pages

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Yes, I think that if someone is openly espousing some of these extremist positions, it's fair to say he's been called a fascist by many. Don't water it down. JG

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I'm not sure this is really relevant to the article but I had the surprise this evening of seeing billboards promoting Larouche's campaign for presidency in my very own street! _R_ 02:47, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Erm... maybe you won't find this so surprising unless I tell you that I live in Paris (yes, the original one, in France) !

I have been removing a lot of the stuff about fascism, because I think the point of this article should be to describe the man, his life, and his ideals, not to classify them. To that end, citations and 'further readings' would be much appreciated. DanKeshet 23:08, Jan 30, 2004 (UTC)

I don't understand a lot of what LaRouche says; he emailed me once, after I asked him to simply and concisely outline his political agenda; but he didn't do that. Lirath Q. Pynnor

Discussion of fascism are actually quite helpful in understanding LaRouche Andylehrer 01:38, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

--- 172.197.219.19 I think the fact that Larouche's organization is cult-like is the most important fact that anyone should know. Larouche's philosophies are interesting, and should be dealt with, but the only reason they are important is because of his impact on people's lives, both in the present and the past. This is an organization that convinces people to drop out of college and pretty much not visit their friends any more because they believe that disaster is imminent (and they must work every day to change the course of history). Put aside whatever ideals the group espouses; the way it uses people and attempts to completely change their world views is what makes this group evil. Members are of course convinced that they truly believe in these ideals, that Larouche is a genius, that his prophecies are always accurate, etc.; regardless of whether many of Larouche's ideas are accurate or not, the group is a threat to free thought because of the implicit control it has over its members. I speak from some experience

Moved from the "Accusations of fascism" section of the article:

• "When people judge political movements, some look at proclamations and theory, not at actions, while others pay close attention to actions and not to theory or statements. Many do not take the necessary step of comparing words to actions. The LaRouche organization is primarily recruited out of the personality types associated with political cults; leaders (intellectuals, talkers) and followers (believers, listeners). LaRouche's approach to the intellectuals has been to invent a theory and method which would captivate their minds and set them upon a course of thinking and viewing the world which can only confirm the statements and ideas of LaRouche."

This seems to be irrelevant and pov speculation about people's motives and the personality types of LaRouche's followers.

• "However, after the rise of Hitler and the alliance with Nazi Germany, the Fascists and Mussolini were compelled to adopt Germany's racial hygiene laws and help with the Holocaust."

I don't think this is relevant.

• "LaRouche separates himself from classical fascism and totalitarianism on the one hand, but to also create a theory which is consistent with the premise of fascism since function dictates form; LaRouche requires the same function from his theory as classical fascism has, and so this dictates the form."

What does this mean? I don't think this adds anything to the arguments that LaRouche is a fascist. Wmahan 17:38, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Lar's theories are absurdly complicated, but he says over and over again that he's opposed to fascism, so if he's accused of fascism then we have to show how his overall philosophy contradicts his statements. Anything we can put down in this article to make sense of Lar's philosophies is a good thing, in my book, because it's really easy to get lost in them. I don't understand your confusion. This is basically responding to a possible argument that Lar's philosophies aren't based on traditional fascist philosophers and therefore can't be fascist. There was a whole other section below this...IMO this article has too many opinions, too many maybes, too many people editing it in contradictory ways. it's a morass. wiki is a failed concept. Vaketer

Thanks for the clarification. I have no problem with moving the part about fascism back into the article. Perhaps it could be reworded to include the context that you describe above, namely how LaRouche's beliefs allegedly bely his public claims. I prefer to think of this page not as a demonstration of wiki's failures, but that a good article takes time, because it is still be in flux. By editing the page you've helped improve it, so thanks. :-) Wmahan. 18:52, 2004 Apr 9 (UTC)

Jesus christ. some fool with too much time on their hands got rid of the useful link, to the Age article about the CEC trying to psychologically break down its members, and added useless links. Freaking fools. Edit, edit, edit, it doesn't matter if it makes sense. Or if you know what you're doing. Deleting the link is royally stupid. (vak)

I moved the section below out of "cult accusations", because it has no relevance to "cult accusations", and seems to me to be another case of pov speculation. The LaRouche youth on campus also denounce the colleges for wretched academic standards. It is important to keep in mind the distinction between Misplaced Pages and USENET. --Herschelkrustofsky 19:43, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

• "Members of the Larouche student movement can sometimes be seen on college campuses, where they badger students to drop out of school and join the movement. Their logic is as follows: the US is about to go through a second Great Depression; if this is true, then you will not have a job when you graduate; if this is true, then there is no point in graduating; therefore, drop out of school and become one of us."

cult, fascist allegations

I am a college student in Seattle, and I have been approached on numerous occasions by campaigners for the LaRouche Movement. I found (and still find) their ideas very intriguing, such as developing a global peace and economic recovery based on building up infrastructure in third-world countries. But whenever I discussed LaRouche with friends or acquaintences, those who had heard of him all told a similar story that he's a fascist demagogue, and his followers are some kind of cult. When I searched the internet I found several references to this in pages such as www.publiceye.org, but the allegations in this website were so starkly contrary to Larouche's own recorded statements and the impressions that I picked up in my own experience with the organization, that I remained skeptical of both sides.

I have attended several meetings with the LaRouche Youth Movement, and have found the description given here to be failry accurate. Most of the meetings (that I attended) were spent discussing classical art and philosophy, as well as pre-Euclidian Geometry and the complex domain. I found that most of the members spent the majority of their time on the campaign, and many did indeed live together, and held meetings in their homes. However, I found very little indication of cult-like behavior, and didn't feel at all as though I was being brainwashed. I did encounter numerous conspiracy theories that our current regime is based on British oligarchical banking institutions that had ties with Nazi Germany, but many of their accusations don't seem that farfetched to me. (see The Carlyle Group )

The thing that concerned me was the lack of solid, third-party analysis of Larouche and his organization. There is extensive literature available in Larouche's 2004 campaign webite , as well as that of the Youth Movement , the Executive Intelligence Eeview (LaRouche's own newsletter), and the Schiller Institue (founded by Larouche's wife, Helga Zepp LaRouhe). But I wanted to find information from other sources that either confirme, or cridible contradicted what he said in his own publications. I found that many of the allegations featured in www.publiceye.org reference his conviction of loan fraud, but as is demonstrated in his own literature as well as here, this was pretty much unfounded. I greatly appreciate the article here, because it gives an accurate and even-handed assessment of the accusations against the organization, as well as their rebuttals.

I still have not dismissed entirely the accusations of "cult-like" behavior in the organization just becaue I don't feel confident that I could identify it myself. But the accusations of being a "fascist demagague" and an anti-semite and homophobe I believe are unfounded. I'm not convinced that he is the sole savior of the United States and the world economy (as he does seem to egotistically claim), but I would support him as a candidate for presidency a lot more than John Kerry... and he may be able to help us recover from Georde W. Bush.

--Phlict 10:01, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Chip Berlet of Public Eye, PRA et al has pretty much served as a poison-pen-for-hire, whoring himself out to very powerful establishment figures like Richard Mellon Scaife. Unfortunately, most English language coverage of LaRouche is not much different; there is little criticism or analysis of LaRouche, only invective --- which ought to pique one's curiosity. People complain that LaRouche is difficult to understand, but if you want to learn about him, there is no subsitute for reading what he says.--Herschelkrustofsky 11:16, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

That's reassuring to hear, because it felt way to much like a smear campaign. The more I read od LaRouch'es own writings, the more I am convinced his ideas have merit, even if they're a bit hard to grasp at first glance.

I pulled the following from an article found in the Architecture of Modern Political Power website It's a pretty huge archive of past news articles with occastional commentary by the author of the site. The article i'm referencing talks about farious conspiracy theorists in the US, and can be found about 2/3rds down (just search the page for LaRouche and you'll see it)

"For anyone who wants to figure out what LaRouche is talking about, it is necessary to be conversant with esoterica concerning Freemasonry, the Knights of Malta, and British imperialism. The alternative is to see all of the above as code words for Jews, and LaRouche's enemies -- namely Chip Berlet, Dennis King, and the Anti-Defamation League -- tend to take this easy way out. I don't believe that right-wing globalist conspiracy theories in general, or LaRouche's theories in particular, can be dismissed by claiming that they are disguised anti-Semitism -- that is to say, code-word versions of the old international Jewish banking conspiracies."

from April-June 1993, by Daniel Brandt at Public Information Research

I hope I'm not taking too much space here... I'm new to Wiki so I'm not too sure of the conventions yet

--Phlict 23:11, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)--Phlict

This article is almost entirely LaRouche propaganda and needs to be completely rewritten. Adam 04:54, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Not sure what's been going on - last I checked in on it a few months ago it was very anti-LaRouche, all but accusing him of being a lunatic fascist...with all these anons, it's hard to figure out who's doing what - I imagine Herschel Krustofsky's been doing a lot of whitewashing, though. john k 05:38, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I actually don't find that version much better, although I agree it is less LaRouchie in tone. What is needed is a straight biography, with some commentary on his opinions and the charges made against him. Adam 06:46, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of that version, either. Anti-LaRouche POVing is only decent by comparison with pro-LaRouche POVing. john k 03:29, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

That's what I have tried to provide. I left all the charges intact -- it is certainly true that LaR has been accused of everything under the sun, and it is duly noted in my version. But to treat the charges as fact, with no documentation whatsoever, reduces Misplaced Pages to a propaganda organ. The article as presently reverted provides no information whatsoever as to what LaRouche actually says or does, so the reader is left with the impression that he is some mysterious guy with no policy or activity, whom everybody hates. Consequently, I am reverting to my version, with some modifications, and if John Kenney wants to take it to Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation, I am certainly amenable. --Herschelkrustofsky 10:54, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I have no interest in mediation, and only very limited interest in this article. john k 03:29, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

They weren't just "charges," he was convicted of fraud by the courts, and the 15-year sentence shows that his offence was a very serious one. The article should reflect that, and not write it all off as some sort of conspiracy against LaRouche. Adam 11:08, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

By "charges", I meant the characterizations of being left wing, right wing, etc. However, my version of the "Criminal Record" section actually reports what he was convicted of, unlike the other version. And the fact that his case was regarded, around the world, as a human rights scandal, should not be swept under the rug in Misplaced Pages.--Herschelkrustofsky 11:13, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I'm afraid that last comment gives you away, Herschel. Only LaRouchies regarded it as a scandal. Everyone else regarded it as a richly deserved punishment for a thief and swindler. Adam 01:02, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Yup... john k 03:29, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The NCLC, however, obtained a document through the Freedom of Information Act, which tells a different story: it is a memo from the FBI station head in New York City, written to national headquarters on November 23, 1973. It states that infiltrators had been successfully placed in the leadership of the CPUSA, who had convinced the party heads that their problems could be solved by the "physical elimination of LaRouche."

I was just handed some of LaRouche's materials by his people on the way to lunch today and even his own materials don't support this charge. Nowhere does it say that FBI infiltrators have convinced the leaders of the CPUSA to eliminate Larouche. It does note that there is a lot of talk in the CPUSA, including in their newspaper, of eliminating (doesn't use the term "physical elimination") LaRouche and that the FBI could perhaps place articles in the CPUSA newspaper to help continue to cause problems.