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I would like to remove the "Notability" tag. While Rathke may not be a household name, his stature on the left is undeniable and he has had his fingerprints on more projects than just about any other left-wing organizer over the last thirty years. You may not like what he does, but there's no denying that he's done it, and he's an important figure currently and historically. It's especially notable that he started and continues to lead ACORN, and that would be enough, but as this article shows, he has left many other notable impressions on the nation's political landscape. Politics608 (talk) 22:59, 7 December 2007 (UTC)Politics608

Actually, no, Rathke does not continue to lead ACORN (as discussed in ACORN Cracks Wide Open by Carl Horowitz). Asteriks (talk) 22:21, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Recent Edits

A new editor has repeatedly inserted the following content:

A member of the radical ] ] (SDS), he dropped out in 1968 to join the anti-draft movement. <ref>Rael Jean Isaac, Erich Isaac. ''The coercive utopians''. Regenrey Publishing. 1983</ref><ref>Andrew C. McCarthy. ''

I have removed this for a number of WP:BLP violations, and will continue to do so. It is contentious material that requires solid sources. The citation provided doesn't provide a page number, but nowhere in the book does it refer to Rathke being a radical marxist, dropping out of anything, joining anti-draft movements, etc. Since this isn't discussed elsewhere in the article, it's also not lead-paragraph material. I will continue to remove it per WP:BLP; the content being added is not in the source provided. Xenophrenic (talk) 01:41, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

I added a page # and the National Review Article has been added as an additional source. -PC —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pecker Checker (talk • contribs) 02:01, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Google books has the book ref; I can't get a full view, but on page 168 it does mention him being in SDS (I don't know the context, so I don't know if it supports the "marxist" or anti-draft portions. The McCarthy article is online here; the Rathke mention is on the second page. It mentions him in SDS and describes SDS as "communist"; nothing about the anti-draft movement. If the book or another cite does support this, I'd think the education section would be more appropriate than the lede. JeremyMcCracken (talk) (contribs) 02:13, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

The Misplaced Pages article on SDS specifically states they were neither Marxist nor Communist. Xenophrenic (talk) 01:43, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

I have a copy of the book on my shelf and the reference to Rathke going on to work against the draft is in the next paragraph. - PC —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pecker Checker (talk • contribs) 02:39, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

I now also have a copy of the book, and there is nothing at all about Rathke going on to work against the draft in the next paragraph... or anywhere else in the book. In addition, the reference to the SDS membership per page 168 of this book is cited to footnote (#4) to New Spirit magazine, March 1979 issue (page 22), which only speculates on the SDS relationship. As this is a WP:BLP, a more substantial source will be required. I find the outright deception that "the reference to Rathke going on to work against the draft is in the next paragraph," when it clearly is not, very disconcerting. Xenophrenic (talk) 01:40, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

SDS

I think the mention of "activist for SDS" in the Education section seems very weakly supported. There seem to be too highly partisan sources given, with no real evidence for the significance of this claim. Moreover, absent some connection to his known activities, "activist" seems like an over-characterization, where "member" might be more neutral. However, if we use "member", it is even more questionable that this factoid is particularly germane to the biography. LotLE×talk 04:55, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Just saying "member of" or "activist with" doesn't contribute to the article, and really has no relation to his notability -- let alone the fact it would have been when he was a teenager. The two sources being cited, an opinion piece from NRO 2 weeks before the presidential election, and a 1983 book that footnotes the alleged SDS connection to a New Spirit source, are not quality sources. The NRO article is full of falsifications and polemic, while New Spirit only confirms that Rathke opposed the draft, but does not indicate he was a member of SDS. So not only is it non-notable trivia, but unsubstantiated, too. Xenophrenic (talk) 05:36, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. His membership in the SDS is noteworthy precisely because it has been noted by so many sources. For example: , , , , .

And Xenophrenic, I think that the monitors would be less than pleased with you hiding a blanking of content with a vandalism tag. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.57.216.125 (talk) 16:09, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for opting to discuss your edits. When content in a WP:BLP is disputed and removed, it is unproductive, and against policy to continue to re-insert that content before the dispute is resolved.

Can you please explain your views on the relevance of the SDS association to the notability of Wade Rathke? The fact that it was replicated in several similar sources doesn't, in itself, make it notable (or accurate, for that matter). Xenophrenic (talk) 16:24, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

You seem to be the only one making complaints about it and your complaints of it being a BLP violaiton seem tenuous. So far out of those who have commented on it, JeremyMcCracken seems to be in favor of inclusion and Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters seems agnostic. That’s certainly not the kind of consensus you are claiming to have.

As I said previously, it seems to be notable because other people have noted it. The SDS was a major organization and his membership in it certainly seems important enough to mention, and if it was not important enough to mention, no one would have mentioned it, your doubts of the accuracy of the material are not relevant to this discussion unless you have something that directly contradicts his SDS membership. 75.57.216.125 (talk) 16:36, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

@Pecker Checker/75.57.213.195/75.57.216.125: McCracken notes that your source lacked context, and LotLE calls it weak with "no real evidence of the significance of this claim." That is why I am asking you for the significance. How does it apply to Rathke's notability?

We must get the article right. Be very firm about the use of high quality references. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion. Biographies of living persons must be written conservatively, with regard for the subject's privacy. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid paper; it is not our job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives. -From WP:BLP

Your only claim that it is notable information is because other "highly partisan sources" have repeated it? That sounds like spreading tabloid sensationalism to me. Can you please explain the notability? Xenophrenic (talk) 17:17, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

These "highly partisan sources" (I might add that you haven’t quite defined what determines if something is highly partisan) appear to meet the requirements for biographies in Misplaced Pages. There now appears to be several sources for his membership in the SDS. Since this is a biography, biographical material on the life and times of Wade Rathke seem to be appropriate. If a source noted that he was in the Boy Scouts or was into Ham Radio’s that too would seem to be fodder for a biography. 75.57.216.125 (talk) 17:33, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

(dedent) If Rathke was in the Boy Scouts we would need two basic things to include the fact: (1) A source for the fact; (2) A reason to think the fact was notable to his biography. Even though the citations are to partisan sources, I think we meet the basic WP:RS to establish the first fork of this test. What I haven't seen any real evidence of is the second fork. Rathke very well may have joined a widely known student group during college (SDS): did that somehow affect his later life or the notability of his actions?! I have no idea. I know the partisan sources want to mention the fact to dishonestly insinuate that whatever Rathke did for the rest of his life was "in conformance with" ideas advocated by SDS; but we don't have any evidence (in either direction) of any particular life influence from this SDS membership (assuming it is factual to start with). LotLE×talk 17:41, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

I would direct you, Pecker Checker, to read about the notability requirements in WP:BLP. Also, per your statement above, "I have a copy of the book on my shelf and the reference to Rathke going on to work against the draft is in the next paragraph. -PC", could you please give a little detail on what that paragraph says about Rathke going on to work against the draft? Xenophrenic (talk) 17:47, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Recent edits re:ACORN

I have reverted recent edits as they are in violation of WP:BLP. In particular, wording that is not contained in cited sources ("...decision that angered board members"; "...handle the issue quietly"), as well as slanted presentation or coatracking of disputed and tangential assertions ($5 million; or involvement of Tides). Some of the material might be suitable for treatment in the ACORN article, but does not meet WP:BLP requirements for this article. Xenophrenic (talk) 22:07, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Dont know what coatracking is, but of you are implying that the material is tangential, its all related to the subject and the papers I took as sources confirm this. The board members were angry at Wade Rathke, here is a direct quote from one of the papers: Some top ACORN officials tried to shield the scheme, which involved Dale Rathke, the brother of ACORN founder Wade Rathke. "Leadership has no faith in staff. Wade betrayed them," the minutes said. If you would like to rephrase my interpretation of the sources propose it, but I wont let you remove the material again on such specious grounds. Knucklehead Dojo (talk) 22:21, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

I've seen that quote, but your interpretation of it is not supported. You incorrectly inserted content stating that board members were angry. Here is what your cited source actually says:

Minutes from a meeting ACORN held in Los Angeles last summer reveal a group then on the brink of financial collapse. "Currently owe over $800k to IRS," the minutes note. "Haven't paid medical bills of over $300k. We are essentially 'broke' nationally and lots of offices are struggling." Some top ACORN officials tried to shield the scheme, which involved Dale Rathke, the brother of ACORN founder Wade Rathke. "Leadership has no faith in staff. Wade betrayed them," the minutes said.

That indicates it was "top officials" that tried to shield the scheme. Do you have additional sources that clarify your assertion? Sources say that board members were involved in handling the matter internally, which is a contradiction. And your quote doesn't specify whether "Wade betrayed" staff or leadership. Let's see if we can find some clarification in additional sources. Xenophrenic (talk) 23:06, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

I see that you replaced sources, here, in the article to support your assertion that: "They signed an enforceable restitution agreement with the Rathke family to repay the amount of the embezzlement at the rate of $30,000 per year, a decision that angered board members who were not informed of the embezzlement of donor money and pension funds." The source does not say board members were angry at the decision, but instead were angry at not being told -- and it doesn't specify whether they were angry at the other board members, Wade, both or other. Also, there is poor wording asserting as fact that money was embezzled from "donor money and pension funds". As noted above, all of this is material for the ACORN article, not this BLP. Xenophrenic (talk) 23:45, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

On an unrelated note, would you be the censei of the Dojo, or just one of the ten dead students? ;-) Xenophrenic (talk) 23:06, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

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