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overuse?
Since when are the album covers considered overuse? Last I checked wikipedia has 118,091 of them, are you going to remove them all? --Muhandes (talk) 21:56, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
- Album covers used in list or discographies articles where the individual albums are non-notable for their own article is considered overuse, per WP:NFLISTS. --MASEM (t) 22:39, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
- How are the albums not notable? They were just combined for convenience. Do you want me to break them into 14 articles? --Muhandes (talk) 23:32, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
- If you do, they will be deleted. ΔT 02:46, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
- More specifically, none of the individual albums appear to meet our notability guidelines, so they will be deleted unless you can provide secondary sources for the articles. Instead, when combined in a list, the album images are only decorative and do not serve the same purpose that album art on standalone articles serves, and thus are inappropriate to include. --MASEM (t) 02:54, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
- Did any of you two actually look at the article? We seem to be discussing two different articles. Most of these albums have two independent sources - allmusic and Musique Machine. I can probably dig more, but that should be more than enough for notability per WP:NALBUMS - "In general, if the musician or ensemble is notable, and if the album in question has been mentioned in multiple reliable sources, then their officially released albums may have sufficient notability to have individual articles on Misplaced Pages". And if you insist on templating regulars, and in the middle of a discussion, I can do that too. --Muhandes (talk) 05:14, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
- Yes I did, and I would argue that with only two sources for each, you likely would fail notability requirements; in other words, separate articles would not be acceptable. In fact, it is really the collection of CDs that is notable, so one respesentative cover would be ok, but not for individual articles. --MASEM (t) 06:10, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
- It's a collection of albums which were released individually, each receiving media reviews. You could argue they fail notability with two sources, but that would be against WP:NALBUMS and more importantly against the consensus at WP:ALBUMS. --Muhandes (talk) 06:42, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
- NALBUMS requires significant coverage in multiple secondary sources, just like WP:N. As NALBUMS points out, receiving reviews may (the operative word) indicate an album to be notable. But knowing how people see notability, if you try to create an individual article for any single one of these albums, you will likely find people ready to delete it if you can't back it with more secondary, reliable coverage. This is not to say that the lsit collection is bad - it is probably the better way to group it since it seems to be a project to release an album a month with a centralized theme. But in that fashion, you simply cannot use images for each album cover. One is acceptable for general representation, but not any more without significant commentary on the images themselves. --MASEM (t) 07:33, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
- I don't agree. If an album is notable, its identification is fair use. If you are arguing that a studio album from a notable artist with discogs listing, a rateyourmusic listing, an allmusic review and a Musique Machine review don't together amount to notability, I am willing to take this to WT:ALBUM or any other venue and check, but this would result in deletion of (in a very conservative estimate) thousands of articles. If the albums are notable on their own and are only listed together for convenience and to create additional notability, then their covers fall under fair use and WP:NFLISTS does not apply. --Muhandes (talk) 07:51, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
- Being simply listed at a site is not an aspect of notability. I am aware that NABLUMS does assert that an album from a notable artist is presumed notable for a standalone article -- however, this is based that more sources can be found in the future to expand the article to an encyclopedic topic as opposed to just a listing. But ignoring that issue and working that you are grouping the albums together as one because it is easier to handle that way, past consensus on this is that no, image-per-album is still not appropriate, unless each image is specifically discussed from sources in detail - the article is still a discography and falls under WP:NFLISTS. Its understood that one album image is appropriate for identifying the branding of a set of related works, but cannot be used to support identification per album. --MASEM (t) 13:28, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
- I don't agree. If an album is notable, its identification is fair use. If you are arguing that a studio album from a notable artist with discogs listing, a rateyourmusic listing, an allmusic review and a Musique Machine review don't together amount to notability, I am willing to take this to WT:ALBUM or any other venue and check, but this would result in deletion of (in a very conservative estimate) thousands of articles. If the albums are notable on their own and are only listed together for convenience and to create additional notability, then their covers fall under fair use and WP:NFLISTS does not apply. --Muhandes (talk) 07:51, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
- NALBUMS requires significant coverage in multiple secondary sources, just like WP:N. As NALBUMS points out, receiving reviews may (the operative word) indicate an album to be notable. But knowing how people see notability, if you try to create an individual article for any single one of these albums, you will likely find people ready to delete it if you can't back it with more secondary, reliable coverage. This is not to say that the lsit collection is bad - it is probably the better way to group it since it seems to be a project to release an album a month with a centralized theme. But in that fashion, you simply cannot use images for each album cover. One is acceptable for general representation, but not any more without significant commentary on the images themselves. --MASEM (t) 07:33, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
- It's a collection of albums which were released individually, each receiving media reviews. You could argue they fail notability with two sources, but that would be against WP:NALBUMS and more importantly against the consensus at WP:ALBUMS. --Muhandes (talk) 06:42, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
- Yes I did, and I would argue that with only two sources for each, you likely would fail notability requirements; in other words, separate articles would not be acceptable. In fact, it is really the collection of CDs that is notable, so one respesentative cover would be ok, but not for individual articles. --MASEM (t) 06:10, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
- Did any of you two actually look at the article? We seem to be discussing two different articles. Most of these albums have two independent sources - allmusic and Musique Machine. I can probably dig more, but that should be more than enough for notability per WP:NALBUMS - "In general, if the musician or ensemble is notable, and if the album in question has been mentioned in multiple reliable sources, then their officially released albums may have sufficient notability to have individual articles on Misplaced Pages". And if you insist on templating regulars, and in the middle of a discussion, I can do that too. --Muhandes (talk) 05:14, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
- More specifically, none of the individual albums appear to meet our notability guidelines, so they will be deleted unless you can provide secondary sources for the articles. Instead, when combined in a list, the album images are only decorative and do not serve the same purpose that album art on standalone articles serves, and thus are inappropriate to include. --MASEM (t) 02:54, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
- If you do, they will be deleted. ΔT 02:46, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
- How are the albums not notable? They were just combined for convenience. Do you want me to break them into 14 articles? --Muhandes (talk) 23:32, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
I don't agree. If an album is notable, using an image for identification is fair use. If albums are notable enough to be listed on a separate article, where the image is used for identification, I don't see how putting them together deprives them of that. There is no consensus to the opposite, as it would be ridiculous. It would force editors to split articles just so a cover could be added. WP:NFLISTS is not meant to be used as means to force editors to split articles. --Muhandes (talk) 14:37, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
- Using an album cover to identify an album certainly falls in US fair use law, but WP's non-free content policy is purposely more restrictive. We seek minimal use of non-free images. Cover art barely meets the requirement of WP:NFCC#8 for significance for the reader - we allow it on standalone articles for a single work by consensus, but on lists of works, like a discography that this article is, there is no allowance for it because such uses fail "minimal use" of NFCC#3a, and rarely meet NFCC#8. (see WP:NFC#UUI in addition to WP:NFLISTS, and you can search the archives at WT:NFC for "lists" to see lengthy past discussion on this issue).
- I understand the situation you're in - I will tell you that if you split out the articles to individual albums, they won't be deleted immediately - but knowing what you have there for these albums in terms of sourcing and knowing they are thematically tied, I would not be surprised in a year or more that someone will come along to suggest deletion or merging back to a single article, barring the discovery of new secondary sources. But standard consensus for non-free images explicitly prevents illustrating every album in a discography like this is. One representative cover (This being likely the woodbox one) makes complete sense to include, but any other cover image will be removed per policy -- unless that cover image meets NFCC#8 through commentary about the cover art itself. If you think this needs to be changed, you can likely open discussion at WT:NFC, but given how many times the issue has come up, it is unlikely you'll gain any new traction on it. --MASEM (t) 15:00, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
- Muhandes, Masem happens to be right. These images have to go. It's not a question of fair use. If it were, we could use every album cover on every discography here. If you peruse Category:Discographies of Japanese artists, you will note a distinct lack of covers in any of the articles in that category. You may think this article is somehow different, but it isn't. Further, the ability of any of these CDs to stand alone is highly suspect. There's plenty of "series" articles like this one that have just one image as Masem suggests. These images need to be removed. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:36, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
New Tool
Outstanding, please keep a link to it on your user page or elsewhere easily found for others. 208.85.0.114 (talk) 02:53, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
WP:ANI
Discussion regarding your community imposed sanctions. — BQZip01 — 05:22, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
- I've blocked you for 48 hours. Honestly, by now, you should know when to walk away from a contentious situation, or at least that inviting another editor "shut the fuck up" is not behaviour that is tolerated by the community here. Lankiveil 06:20, 29 May 2011 (UTC).
- The block is being contested by a number of uninvolved editors. Strange Passerby (talk • cont) 06:32, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
- Reduced to 24 hours, which is 3 hours short of time served, per this. Please take this as a reminder how short the community's patience is with you; future civility breaches in anything like the near future are more likely to lead to blocks, and the blocks will be longer. Rd232 02:23, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
- Don't let the political maneuverings of BQZip01 get you down. Everyone is uncivil sometimes. You need to be especially careful because people are gunning for you, but something tells me that this isn't the first time you've been through this. Pull though this, there are people rooting for you. Sven Manguard Wha? 04:28, 30 May 2011 (UTC)