Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Stho002 (talk | contribs) at 00:23, 24 June 2011 (→reply to Vesal). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Article | Category | Index | Outline | Portal | Project | Discussion Shortcuts WT:PHILO WT:PHIL Philosophy Noticeboard This is the central discussion area for WikiProject Philosophy. Feel free to discuss any topics relating to philosophy here. It is recommended that members watchlist this page. WikiProject Philosophy was featured in a WikiProject Report in the Signpost on 25 July 2011. Archives Index 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 21, 22, 23, 24 This page has archives. Sections older than 30 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III.

WikiProject Philosophy article · category · portal
· Join the project  · Main Φ discussion w  · Categories  · Style guide  · Article alerts  · New articles  · Articles for deletion  · RFC  · Requested articles  · Reference desk  · Featured content  · Star of Sophia  · Reference resources
Task forces Philosophers log join Literature log join Aesthetics log join Epistemology log join Ethics log join Logic log join Metaphysics log join Social and political log join Language log join Mind log join Religion log join Science log join Analytic log join Continental log join Eastern log join Ancient log join Medieval log join Modern log join Contemporary log join
Assessment  · Project banner  · Statistics  · Articles needing attention  · Peer review Articles by quality  · FA 45  · FL 5  · GA 190  · B 1391  · C 4043  · Start 7395  · Stub 4586  · Unassessed 57
Articles by importance  · Top 20  · High 936  · Mid 3053  · Low 14333  · Unknown 119
Article lists  · Philosophers  · Philosophical literature  · Aesthetics  · Ethics  · Epistemology  · Logic  · Metaphysics  · Soc+Pol  · Philosophy of language  · Philosophy of mind  · Philosophy of religion  · Philosophy of science  · Analytic philosophy  · Continental philosophy  · Eastern philosophy  · Ancient Philosophy  · Medieval philosophy  · Modern philosophy  · Contemporary philosophy
Popular pages Philosophers Literature Aesthetics Epistemology Ethics Logic Metaphysics Social and political Language Mind Religion Science Analytic Continental Eastern Ancient Medieval Modern Contemporary
Indices  · Philosophers  · Literature  · Aesthetics  · Epistemology  · Ethics  · Logic  · Metaphysics  · Social and political  · Language  · Mind  · Religion  · Science  · Analytic  · Continental  · Eastern  · Ancient  · Medieval  · Modern  · Contemporary
Templates General  · {{WikiProject Philosophy}}  · {{Philosophy topics}}  · {{Infobox philosopher}}  · {{PhilCOTW}}  · {{PhilosophyTasks}}  · {{PhilosophyTasksBox}}  · {{PhilInvit}} Navigation  · {{Aesthetics}}  · {{Epistemology}}  · {{Ethics}}  · {{Logic}}  · {{Metaphysics}}  · {{Social and political philosophy}}  · {{Philosophy of language}}  · {{Philosophy of mind}}  · {{Philosophy of religion}}  · {{Philosophy of science}}  · {{Analytic philosophy}}  · {{Continental philosophy}} Stubs  · {{Philo-stub}}  · {{Philosopher-stub}}  · {{Philo-book-stub}}  · {{Hindu-philo-stub}}  · {{Philos-novel-stub}}  · {{ethics-stub}}  · {{logic-stub}} Userboxes  · {{User WP Philosophy}}  · {{User WP Philosophers}}  · {{User WP Philosophical lit}}  · {{User WP Aesthetics}}  · {{User WP Epistemology}}  · {{User WP Ethics}}  · {{User WP Logic}}  · {{User WP Metaphysics}}  · {{User WP Soc+Pol Phil}}  · {{User WP Continental Philosophy}}  · {{User WP Analytic Philosophy}}  · {{User WP Eastern Phil}}  · {{User WP Ancient Phil}}  · {{User WP Medieval Phil}}  · {{User WP Modern Phil}}  · {{User WP Contemporary Phil}}  · {{User WP Phil of religion}}  · {{User WP Phil of mind}}  · {{User WP Phil of science}}  · {{User WP Phil of language}}
Related WikiProjects  · Alternative views talk  · Arts talk  · Atheism talk  · Biblical criticism talk  · Biography (academians) talk  · Hindu Philosophy talk  · History of Science talk  · History talk  · Islamic philosophy talk  · Linguistics talk  · Literature talk  · Mathematics talk  · Middle ages talk  · Mythology talk  · Physics talk  · Skepticism talk  · Religion talk  · Science talk  · Spirituality talk
Reference resources  · PhilPapers  · Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy  · Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy  · Indiana Philosophy Ontology Project  · Perseus Digital Library
v t e

Proposed Changes to Atheism Article

Hi, a series of proposed changes to the atheism article and have been outlined at Talk:Atheism#article_.2F_source_discrepancies, comments would be appreciated.

The Barnstar of Notability in Philosophy

For those who truly earn it: The Barnstar of Notability, For seminal ideas in philosophy, like creating the concept of "notability" in Misplaced Pages article space. "There is something new under the sun" is true if there is something new under the sun.

Request for input regarding Auteur Theory

Could somebody with better mental faculties than me help me out regarding criticisms of AT. The theory is under represented by those to whom it applies and, in my estimation, the (writers) criticisms are detracting from it's purpose and the esoteric knowledge it represents. --Filmmaker2011 (talk) 09:34, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Name of the philosopher

I've moved this to Misplaced Pages:Reference_desk/Humanities#Name_of_the_philosopher. Please look for it there. Skomorokh 10:30, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

WikiProject Philosophy Logic and Humor Task Force

From the department of redundancy department, presenting the following secion -

WikiProject Philosophy Logic and Humor Task Force

WikiProject WikiProject Philosophy Logic and Humor Task Force Members

• User:PPdd

Would anyone like to join me in starting a WikiProject Philosophy Logic and Humor Task Force, jointly with the WP:WikiProject Department of Fun? Once there are five names above, we can start our task list. Sign your name in the quote box above.

Ongoing discussion of Frege, Church, Russell, Death, Nothing, Color, and Humor vs. Humour

Here, here, and here.

"Church is the reincarnation of Frege". Does anyone know who first said that? Was it Carnap, Straus, Einstein, Godel, or Riechenbach? PPdd (talk) 14:35, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Sockpuppet edits

A banned sockpuppeteer has been editing articles on Terence_McKenna, Omega point and Teilhard de Chardin since before Christmas. I haven't reverted any of it as for all I know their edits here might be okay but in Physics they are just weird and wrong. They are:

497glbig, 9p4gh9gkj, Antichristos, Creator666, Jsdhgsdjhg, Sage321, Systemizer, Weltherr, Wyhiugl

And they've used at least the following ips based in St Petersburg:

89.110.0.4, 89.110.0.62, 89.110.14.210, 89.110.14.26, 89.110.16.14, 89.110.16.241, 89.110.19.187, 89.110.20.164, 89.110.4.94, 89.110.6.2 , 89.110.9.221, 9.110.4.94, 91.122.1.73, 91.122.4.34, 91.122.6.123, 91.122.6.46, 91.122.6.62, 91.122.80.83, 91.122.87.244, 91.122.93.63, 92.100.179.13, 92.100.183.77, 95.55.115.125

Cheers Dmcq (talk) 15:29, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

At a first glance it looks like the hundreds (!) of additions to Omega Point are primarily/entirely nonsense. I haven't looked at the others yet. CRGreathouse (t | c) 20:24, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Semi-protected Omega Point and Terence McKenna. Let me know if any evident socks manage to edit. Dougweller (talk) 16:16, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Much ado about nothing on the talk pages there now; Visual representations of nothingness; The elements of the empty set and the elements of a mathematics constructed from nothing without the aid of r. ad absurdum proofs; Death

Much ado about [[nothing on the talk pages there now; Discussion of visual representaions of nothingness; The elements of the empty set and the elements of a mathematics made from nothing; WikiProject Death member comments on theology

at Nothingness article now.

PPdd (talk) 04:33, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Dreadful article on Hume's book A Treatise of Human Nature

Virtually no discussion of the book at all, just a CliffsNotes sort of article. Dougweller (talk) 16:06, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, nothing about its importance. I think it is true to say that modern science (and thereby industrial civilization) is based on ideas first put forward in this book. Quite possibly the most important book of all time. If anybody wants a copy, there was one for sale on ebay recently; only 60,000 Pounds Sterling.--Logicalgregory (talk) 06:41, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Metaphysics

The editor Lorem has deleted a large part of the article Metaphysics without first seeking the views of other editors. See the talk page. Vandalism? — Philogos (talk) 00:44, 17 June 2011 (UTC) — Philogos (talk) 00:55, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

I have sought editors' views at talk:metaphysics#Recent deletion as to whether the deletion should be reverted. It would be appreciated if you would epres your view there— Philogos (talk) 01:37, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

The deletion was reverted. The article however lack citations— Philogos (talk) 21:12, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

More eyes needed at Four-dimensionalism

There is a not-quite-edit-war brewing at Four-dimensionalism. Could an as-yet uninvolved editor or two take a look at the talk page discussion and article history and weigh in. The primary problem (as I saw) was a lede that was overly detailed and essaylike and one editor (Stho002) refusing to work collaboratively. In the interest of disclosure, and to stave off any appearance of forum shopping, I'd already filed a WQA but I think it's to the level of content discussion now and within the scope of this project. Thanks BrideOfKripkenstein (talk) 19:24, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Just to correct an error in the above, I do not refuse to work collaboratively, but collaboration means more than me adding something positive while the others just sit around reverting it on technicalities. Actually, I think that now we are working more collaboratively on it, but that doesn't mean it has to be "all loves and hugs", if you see what I mean?? Stho002 (talk) 02:58, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Furthermore, my argument is in essence as follows:

• you cannot explain anything without interpretation, you can only make direct cited quotes
• interpretation is different to opinion, different to OR, and not necessarily in contravention of NPOV
• in many areas, like science, interpretation isn't usually too much of a problem
• in philosophy, interpretation is a much bigger problem
• therefore, in philosophy, simple "quote and cite" WP articles just aren't worth the paper that they aren't written on!
• therefore, with philosophy articles in WP, we should be guided more by whether the article explains things well, and less by robotic adherence to strict policy, as the latter will inevitably just result in poor quality articles, with all improvements being reverted ...

Stho002 (talk) 03:15, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

BrideOfKripkenstein: I have looked at the article, its history and talk page and I concur with your remarks. — Philogos (talk) 04:25, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Sorry buddy, but you hardly count as an 'as-yet uninvolved editor' ... in fact you are part of the problem, i.e., robotic adherence to strict policy (can you pass captcha tests??) ... Stho002 (talk) 05:22, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Well, I did go there only based on this request, and have no previous involvement. I do sympathize with many of your points: I too despise the typical "quote and cite" philosophy article. Take something as important as the problem of evil. That's the worst kind of "not an essay" article; in fact, it manages to evade the contemporary debate altogether and instead reports on every irrelevant and long-abandoned objection ever made. Some of our style guidelines, such as WP:YOU, are unnecessarily restrictive and disallow the kind of writing that makes difficult philosophy accessible. Take the following from SEP on temporal parts:

You're performing an amazing trick right now: you're in two places at once. How do you manage to be down there, near the floor, and yet also be a metre or two up in the air? Well, it's not so very amazing: your feet are down there on the floor, and your head is up in the air. Having spatial parts enables you to be in several different places, and to have different properties in different places: you're cold down there on the tiled floor, and also warm up there by the heater, because your feet are cold and your head is warm... eople take up time as well as taking up space: you existed yesterday, and, unless reading this article is a real strain, you will exist tomorrow too. Just as you can have different properties at different places (hot up here, cold down there), you can have different properties at different times (yesterday you hadn't heard of temporal parts, by tomorrow you'll know plenty about them).

I really don't see why such writing should be considered unsuitable for an encyclopedia. But here is the deal: either we challenge these style guidelines globally, which you can do on the talk page of each policy or style guide, or we stick with them. An encyclopedia needs to be at least somewhat consistent from article to article! When it comes to style, though, I'd rather agree with what you say, "we should be more guided by whether the article explains things well, and less by robotic adherence to strict policy". And unless you want to have this highly specialized article featured on the Misplaced Pages front page, there is no need to enforce every single style guideline fanatically.

However, Misplaced Pages is different from those other encyclopedias since articles here are anonymous. If a SEP article contains a non-trivial proposition without attributing it to anyone, you know it is the interpretation of the author of the article. You cannot do that on Misplaced Pages! Here everything unattributed must be neutral, obvious and uncontroversial. You need to take interpretations directly from the secondary literature, present it without adding any further significant interpretation, and properly attribute it to the person who made that interpretation. This is a point where compromise is not possible. You cannot ignore Philogos's citation requests. They wouldn't add such requests if it were obvious to them. While it is easier to complain from the sidelines, the burden is on the person who wants to add material to comply with content policies. Most importantly, when you find these requests unreasonable, you explain why it is unreasonable and you may ask here for second opinions, but you do not call that editor "part of the problem" unless your goal is to be kicked off Misplaced Pages as quickly as possible. Vesal (talk) 10:11, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

The edit history looks too frantic, too frequent critical 'feedback' or 'instruction' and 'protection' of the article, and then resulting energy wasting discussion. Unless there is something urgently bad added to a "start class" or similar article, experienced wp editors should not intervein immediately, daily or hourly, as someone invests their time effort and experience to improve it. Let them a respectful amount of space to get somewhere, as much as you wish your experienced or considered input to be ultimately respected. In good time take the article forward yourself if possible, eg. checking if there are cites and adding them yourself before demanding them. This is often easier to do than requesting it done and explaining at length why it is crucial. The comment about getting "kicked off Misplaced Pages" for complaint is a bit harsh. I have been maligned by an editor here, eg called "a pathetic persistent liar" etc, and a previous administrative incident review about the conflict ended without a single admin comment - it was simply archived. I have also been slightly rude to Philogo about a mistake where he wiped another editor's discussed contribution to an article in a single edit marked minor. I considered apologising for tone, but not with no admission of the error, and in this area of WP at least there seems to be a vacuum of actual moderation. Certainly civil standards are much much preferable, but frustration at unchecked problem behaviour can quite fairly produce outbursts. It is something to watch out for here, for your own tranquility rather than supposed WP process. Lisnabreeny (talk) 12:34, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Without more citations it is not possible to verify most of the article. The article provides just three references, as below, and only the firat uses the term Four-dimensionalism which does not appear in the Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy.

1. Sider, Theodore (1997). "Four-Dimensionalism". Philosophical Review (Oxford University Press) 106 (2): 197–231. http://tedsider.org/papers/4d.pdf.
2. "The Unreality of Time". Wikisource. http://en.wikisource.org/The_Unreality_of_Time. Retrieved 2008-12-15.
3. "Time". Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. 2002-11-25. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/time/#TimTra). Retrieved 2008-12-15.

— Philogos (talk) 14:58, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

It is a starting point only, and I had nothing to do with the last two of those references above, so they may actually go, and be replaced by better ones ... it due course. I must protest that Philogos has gone and rewritten the lede yet again, adding nothing of substance, after Vesal and I had both settled on an acceptable lede ... Stho002 (talk) 21:38, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

I have invited comments on the revised lede at Talk:Four-dimensionalism#revised lede— Philogos (talk) 22:19, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Once again, Philogo has reverted, without seeking consensus, the lede which Vesal and myself were both happy with, and now tries to prevent reversion of his version by insisting that we get consensus first (as if!!!) Machine elf seems to be backing him up by putting all sorts of heavy handed block warnings on my talk page ... Stho002 (talk) 01:29, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

I have not reverted the the lede which Vesal and myself were both happy with, but I did undo a revert of my edits, and requested reasons to be given on talk page, rather than simply reverting. I have given a reason for each edit to the lede. I have invited comments from editors on my revisions at Talk:Four-dimensionalism#revised lede. I there set out the lede before and after my edits for the convenience of other editors. — Philogos (talk) 02:06, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

IMHO, Philogos is out of control and being counterproductive. I have no option but to continue to undo his pointless interferences ... Stho002 (talk) 03:32, 21 June 2011 (UTC) The article will be added to and improved in due course, but I have other things to be doing as well ... Stho002 (talk) 03:33, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Stho002 has already been given a warning by another editor about edit warring in the article: see User talk:Stho002#3RR). He apparently intends to ignore that warning, but should remember the 3RR. Comments from other editors on my edits are welcome at Talk:Four-dimensionalism#revised lede. — Philogos (talk) 04:17, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

as I said, Philogos is out of control and being counterproductive: his edits are making the lede less concise and clear. I suggest we await the return of Vesal, whose opinion (and demeanor) seems more balanced, but I expect Philogos cannot wait 5 minutes without interfering again ... Stho002 (talk) 04:41, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

The revised lede was reverted three times by user:130.216.201.45 — Philogos (talk) 22:54, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Four times:

05:09, 21 June 2011 (somebody pls control rogue editor Philogo...) (Tag: references removed)

04:42, 21 June 2011 (Undid revision 435400405 by Philogo (talk) I can't stop Philogo from edit warring, I'm only an IP ...) (Tag: references removed)

04:37, 21 June 2011 (rv lede (Philogo out of control)) (Tag: references removed)

03:26, 21 June 2011 (Undid revision 435382778 by Philogo (talk) yes, please do!) (Tag: references removed)

Add them to the half dozen or so by Stho002... it's his WP:SOCK. The IP's first edit in Oct 2009 was further to Stho002's edits earlier that day. In their next set of coincident edits, the IP claimed he's "under pressure" to remove the additions Stho002 actually made. (The IP uses the same edit summary when removing the material Stho002's added to the IO2 article he created). The IP didn't participate in any discussions... they're clearly identical, and he was simply referring to his efforts as Stho002 in trying to save his IO2 article from deletion.

Here's another New Zealand IP 130.216.1.16, which Stho002 signed-off on in Nov 2008, (to take credit for shouting at Jimbo about how taxonomy is “NEVER fully objective”, no less. It's his first edit using Stho002, BTW.—Machine Elf  02:39, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

This is getting mighty silly! Philogo and MachineElf are clearly trying to bait me into reverting the article so they can entrap me with the 3 revert rule ... but I will keep reverting it, for as long as they keep reverting it for no justifiable reason ... Stho002 (talk) 04:09, 22 June 2011 (UTC) I edited as an IP because their constant and unjustified reverting doesn't make my account history look good, as they well know ... I'm perfectly justified to edit as an IP (it is only sockpuppetry with multiple accounts) ... Stho002 (talk) 04:11, 22 June 2011 (UTC) Machine Elf  is now stooping to the low tactic of dredging up irrelevant issues from 2008! Stho002 (talk) 04:15, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

LOL, bait you? News flash, you've 3RRed more than once and we had been kind enough not to report you. On your talk page you admit you didn't know using IPs to “to deceive other editors, disrupt discussions, distort consensus, avoid sanctions, or otherwise violate community standards – sock puppetry – is forbidden” so we need to determine what your sock puppet accounts are. Especially since you don't intend to stop, despite numerous efforts from multiple users (i.e. “baiting you”): “At any rate, editing as an IP is the only way to stop other bad editors from deliberately making one's account history look bad, by making numerous unjustified reverts and heavy handed warnings”.

FYI, the so-called “heavy handed” warning about 3RR from me was just a standard template... which, you summarily dismissed and went on to commit an additional 5 reverts.—Machine Elf  17:35, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

You are full of rhetoric! What I actually "admitted" was that I was under the impression that sockpuppetry didn't apply to IPs, because I only read the lede of the policy page on this, and it clearly says accounts. Furthermore, as I said I edited as an IP not to deceive, distort, etc., but purely to stop further unjustified rvs being logged on my account history. So, go on, block me for defending myself ... I bet you can't ... Stho002 (talk) 01:25, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

You're a real comedian, I was just being polite when I repeated what you said: that you weren't aware you couldn't “deceive , distort , etc.”, (basically, avoid 3RR in violation of community standards), by making 4 more reverts in addition to the one you made while still logged-on after receiving a mere warning from me about your existing 3RR violation.

Crazy as it sounds, what's hilarious is that you think wantonly violating 3RR is no biggie because we are “bad editors” who are “deliberately” trying to make your edit history look “bad”, (consensus offering no justification whatsoever for continuing to revert you). Naturally, you believe it's unfair that your efforts to thwart such malice directed at your person's edit history, should be recorded in said edit history. However, you took no steps to prevent that from being the case... (like not reverting 5 more times). It was merely some kind of happy accident that you got logged-off.

I'd wager no one took your bet, but I didn't say we had been kind enough not to “block” you, I said we had been kind enough not to “report” you. You're an admin on Wikispecies, (with a long history of abusing your tools in support of your WP:TENDENTIOUS edits), so no doubt you can plainly see I'm not an admin. Report yourself, and throw the book at you; give yourself the comfy chair.—Machine Elf  06:43, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Well, I do see history repeating itself ... back in 2008, when I started contributing to Wikispecies, there was initially a few people who suddenly started to show their true colours, and that had to be battled through (admittedly, my first attempts to battle them were, in retrospect, laughable, but 2007/2008 was a bad time for me personally ...) Anyway, three years and 200,000+ edits later, things have settled down, those troublemakers all spat the dummy and left, and I facilitated a useful collaboration between Wikispecies, ZooKeys (Pensoft Publishing) and Species-ID (a consortium of professional entomologists/bioinformaticians based mainly in Europe), so now we routinely link to each other's sites, and all benefit from the increased traffic. So, it would be nice to hear a balanced assessment of the situation from you, instead of all this blatant bias ... perhaps then we can work together? Stho002 (talk) 07:07, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps if you had wanted me to take your suggestion that “we can work together” seriously, you might have refrained from calling me a “vandal” when you reverted with your IP—your third revert yesterday. You can, at least, be WP:CIVIL can't you?

I'll put this as politely as possible in the interest of “a balanced assessment of the situation from ”. The “consortium of professional entomologists/bioinformaticians based mainly in Europe”, http://species-id.net, is a community-owned wiki (on which you're a bureaucrat) that that hosts a project of yours, TNZOR, according to your Wikispecies User:Stho002 page. I'm sure Species-ID (and their service-sponsor, Biowikifarm) are lovely wikis, and notable in their field(s), along with your TNZOR project, but it's easy to run into WP:COI issues—which I'm not saying are a problem—but you probably ought to read the entire page on that one (not just the WP:LEAD) before you go any further with that train of thought. In the future, you should definitely avoid using that wiki as an WP:RS here on WP, especially for a subject on which you've been the sole contributor there.

I hope you have been a net-positive at Wikispecies. In any case, I'm sure you are a lovely person. The urban dictionary tells me that “spat the dummy” is a childish temper tantrum, as if an adult spat out their pacifier. Truly a testament to your upstanding character... but you might want to try unhitching the story about how you've been persecuted by others, elsewhere, from your accusation of “blatant bias” on my part. Whereas I know the latter to be false, it makes it difficult to take you at your word regarding the former, (much less assume the “we can work together” overture was in good faith). The sooner you're ready to put such incidents behind you, the better it will be for everyone.—Machine Elf  12:12, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Well I hope that rant had some meaning for you, because I am left scratching my head what it was all about? When all is said and done, I just want to improve a few metaphysics articles on WP ... but when it gets instantly reverted back to the previous crappy version, and other editors start trawling through my internet past, back to 2008, being sarcastic (i.e., 'In any case, I'm sure you are a lovely person'), and resisting change seemingly out of sheer bloodymindedness, I have to wonder wtf is going on? Stho002 (talk) 23:53, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

BrideOfKripkenstein.: At your suggestion I took a look at this article, shortened the lede, made a few suggestions and proposed a new lede. It appears to me, however, that it is difficult for editors to assist with this article without being subject to personal abuse and for their edits to be summarily reverted. The lede states In philosophy, four-dimensionalism may refer to either eternalism or perdurantism. It quotes Sider (Sider, Theodore (1997). "Four-Dimensionalism". Philosophical Review (Oxford University Press) 106 (2): 197–231. http://tedsider.org/papers/4d.pdf) as using the term to mean perdurantism. (Sider's actual words are

Persistence through time is like extension through space. A road has spatial parts in the subregions of the region of space it occupies; likewise, an object that exists in time has temporal parts in the various subregions of the total region of time it occupies. This view — known variously as four dimensionalism, the doctrine of temporal parts, and the theory that objects “perdure” — is opposed to “three dimensionalism”, the doctrine that things “endure”, or are “wholly present”.

— Sider, Four Dimensionalism, Philosophical Review 106

No text is cited to verify the use of the term to mean eternalism. If the term four-dimensionalism refers to either eternalism or perdurantism, and we have articles on both: eternalism and perdurantism, and, for good measure, temporal parts then this article appears to be redundant, a point already raised on the discussion page. — Philogos (talk) 23:59, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

As for Philogo's point (above), I can only reiterate that the topic is itself very unclear terminologically and even conceptually, so the WP article cannot be any more clear than the topic. It may help (or make things worse) that I have now added the following paragraph and references to the article:

The term four-dimensionalism is often used without specification of exactly what is meant. Often, it is used in the context of the issue of personal identity over time. For example, Robinson (1985: 299-300) stated that 'the m.o. view, as canvassed below, is not my first choice amongst approaches to fission cases. I prefer the four-dimensionalist account (itself an m.o. analysis) presented with exemplary clarity by David Lewis in 'Survival and Identity' '. Unfortunately, Lewis (1976), at least in the first edition of this book, does not appear to use the term four-dimensionalism at all! Muis (2005) offers an explanation of the terminology which (fairly) clearly equates four-dimensionalism with perdurantism (by using the term 'four-dimensional' in relation to perdurantism only), not eternalism, but does so in an opening paragraph that mentions all four -isms (i.e., eternalism vs. presentism, endurantism vs. perdurantism), stating that 'in analytical metaphysics, there are three, closely related, debates about time and the nature of change and persistence' , the third debate being A-theory vs. B-theory of time (see below). Therefore, it appears to be very difficult to disentangle the issues or work out any firm terminological distinctions. It is unclear if all the literature exactly follows the terminology of Muis (2005).

• Lewis, D. 1976: Survival and identity. Pp. 17-40 in Rorty, A.O. (ed.) The identities of persons. Berkeley: University of California Press. Google books
• Muis, R. 2005: Four-dimensionalism: an ontology of persistence and time. By Theodore Sider. Ars Disputandi, 5 ISSN: 1566-5399 PDF
• Robinson, D. 1985: Can amoebae divide without multiplying? Australasian journal of philosophy, 63(3): 299–319. doi:10.1080/00048408512341901

reply to Vesal

>However, Misplaced Pages is different from those other encyclopedias since articles here are anonymous< I disagree! Articles here are not anonymous! The edit history is preserved and accessible. It shows who did what. Edits can be "somewhat anonymous", if the edit is by an IP or an account that doesn't reveal their "true identity" on their user page, but can be "no way anonymous" if "true identity" is revealed (something I must get around to doing on my user page here). There is actually no significant difference with "those other encyclopedias" in that regard. If anything, WP is less anonymous, as you can't tell exactly who wrote what sentence in a typical encyclopedia... Stho002 (talk) 21:30, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

>You need to take interpretations directly from the secondary literature, present it without adding any further significant interpretation, and properly attribute it to the person who made that interpretation. This is a point where compromise is not possible< Again, I disagree! The rule is self-defeating. In philosophy, when someone (P) publishes an interpretation of Q, P's interpretation typically stands just as much in need of interpretation as Q! You can't break out of the circle and say here is P's interpretation, unless you either (1) just quote P directly, or (2) interpret P. If we go for (1), then WP becomes just "Wikiquotes", and the quote will typically be so difficult to interpret that it is useless (see clarification below). Hence, (2) is the only real option. Stho002 (talk) 22:42, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Clarification: the only way to interpret P is in context of everything that one knows about the topic, but you can't cite everything that you know about the topic! Hence, an interpretation in philosophy is uncitable (except perhaps in a PhD thesis with a huge bibliography). The reader of a WP article on philosophy just needs to be aware that what they are reading has, of necessity, a rather significant component of interpretation, which, as I pointed out, is not the same as opinion, bias, etc. Stho002 (talk) 22:50, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

If you're unable to contribute within the Misplaced Pages guidelines, you should not contribute. WP:V is non-negotiable: it's one of Misplaced Pages's core policies. CRGreathouse (t | c) 15:33, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Then a core WP policy makes it impossible to create metaphysics articles that can be understood, as opposed to being mere compilations parrot-fashion quotations. Verifiability surely does not apply to explanations or illustrative examples??? So, what you seem to be saying is that bad policy (or at least bad interpretation of policy) is non-negotiable??? Hmmm ... Stho002 (talk) 21:27, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

If your issue is with a core policy, maybe you should be bringing up your objections in WP:V to try and change WP:V instead of insisting on violating currently establish policy? JonPF (talk) 17:04, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

It is not clearly a violation of that policy ... the policy is being interpreted overly strictly to suit agendas ... Stho002 (talk) 01:07, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

WP:V states: All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable published source using an inline citation . WP:NPV states: Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views… these opinions should not be stated in Misplaced Pages's voice… watch out for structural or stylistic aspects that make it difficult for a reader to fairly and equally assess the credibility of all relevant and related viewpoints

Here are some quotes from your explanation section’s first paragraph that are in violation of WP:NPV “I prefer the four-dimensionalist account”, “offers an explanation of the terminology which (fairly) clearly equates four-dimensionalism with perdurantism”, “related, debates about time and the nature of change and persistence' ,” The whole section is difficult to read, and is written like an essay in first person.

Also, much of your “Explanation” section doesn’t meet the WP:V criteria, for example: “there are three, closely related, debates about time and the nature of change and persistence' , the third debate being A-theory vs. B-theory of time (see below). Therefore, it appears to be very difficult to disentangle the issues or work out any firm terminological distinctions. It is unclear if all the literature exactly follows the terminology of Muis” this is your opinion. It might be true, it might be something that would be worthwhile to talk about in a philosophy class. But it has no place in WP if it doesn’t meet WP:V standards.JonPF (talk) 15:15, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Eh? I have written nothing in the first-person. I have not once said 'I ...' anything. You are quoting things above that I was directly quoting from published sources who did write in the first-person! Stho002 (talk) 23:28, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

I offered a suggestion, and was told that the current parties to the dispute like their own versions better, so maybe more eyes are not needed after all. Rick Norwood (talk) 14:22, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

The “current parties” you're referring to are Stho002 in the singular. In fact, Philogos did reiterate your suggestion and neither of you have received an adequate response... precisely because people have their hands full at the moment. I hope that helps to clarify whether “more eyes are not needed after all”?—Machine Elf  19:30, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

It certainly seems to me that more eyes are needed, but as Machine Elf says I have my hands full at the moment. CRGreathouse (t | c) 00:10, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

This is wrong! Certain editors clearly want to reword what I wrote, without adding anything, just so it reads in a way that suits them and makes it look like they wrote it... Stho002 (talk) 01:05, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Stho002 (talk) has just reverted the lede again (and, for good measure removed the 'expert needed' flag). — Philogos (talk) 01:24, 23 June 2011 (UTC) — Philogos (talk) 01:28, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, that is correct! But only because Philogo changed the lede yet again, adding too much detail for a lede, and making it obscure again. Now he is busy adding lots of references, but not explaining their relevance ... again this just results in main points being lost in unnecessary detail. As for the 'expert needed' flag, that could apply to just about any article on WP, and it doesn't define what is mean't by "expert". I'm not saying that it means much at all, but I do have an MA in metaphysics, so why don't I count as an "expert" ... it is very unclear ...Stho002 (talk) 01:54, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Here are my edits: to lede and to refs

The additional refs are the works cited by Sider in the lede which Stho002 has reverted yet again. The addition of <nowicki> </nowiki> does not seem to me to be adding too much detail for a lede, and making it obscure again— Philogos (talk) 13:27, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

I was not referring to just that! Maybe it was Machine Elf who added too much detail, making it obscure again, and then you made a minor change on top of that? You know what? I don't care who it was ... somebody made it obscure again and added too much detail... Stho002 (talk) 23:41, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

He's talking about this edit, too much detail, too pedantic! LOL! Welcome to Misplaced Pages, I hope you like it here and decide to stay. Thanks for editing!—Machine Elf  23:57, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Wrong again! I was not talking about that in particular. I can't be bothered tracking the history (better things to do), but the current lede (or at least it was current last time I looked) was a concise and acceptable lede according to both Vesal and myself. It keeps changing, and not for the better ... Stho002 (talk) 00:04, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Sure, find the diff or put a sock in it. I'm sure you do like the lede as it sits right now. It's yours.—Machine Elf  00:16, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

So, I'm not allowed to prefer something that I have myself written? Interesting! In general, though, I will not be looking to you for lessons on humility ... Stho002 (talk) 00:23, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

My bad. I got discouraged too easily. You are right, only one editor was dismissive of my effort. I'll try again. Rick Norwood (talk) 14:23, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Question re: Category:Literary critics

I've posted a question on how to organize Category:Literary critics over at Misplaced Pages Talk:WikiProject Literature#Question re: Category:Literary critics. Please chime in. Thanks! Aristophanes68 (talk) 17:11, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

By the way...

By the way, one of the main reasons why WP articles in metaphysics are so problematic is that WP tries to have separate articles for each term/concept, but, in metaphysics, the concepts are so tightly interlinked that you cannot write about one without (just about) equally writing about several others. This is most clearly so when the concepts are opposites, like endurantism vs. perdurantism, for example. By analogy, try writing an article on 'goodness' without mentioning 'badness', 'light' without mentioning 'dark', etc. Stho002 (talk) 08:11, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Often it seems you object to a WP core policy or the overall structure of WP. I understand that you may not like how WP functions or is designed; what I don’t understand is why you think that means you can ignore established rules. Shouldn’t you instead either try to change the rules instead of violate them, or go start your own wiki? JonPF (talk) 14:57, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

I object to the overly pedantic adherence to rules, when this results in poor quality output ... Stho002 (talk) 23:37, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Opposites are often combined in Misplaced Pages, see (e.g.) A priori and a posteriori. Would you give a few examples of what you mean other than opposites? CRGreathouse (t | c) 15:00, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Fair question. Opposites were intended just as the simplest example to illustrate a more complex point. What I really mean, in this context, is that four-dimensionalism, endurantism, perdurantism, eternalism, presentism, materialism, dualism, idealism, qualia, free will, determinism, identity, personal identity, etc. are all so tightly intertwined in the literature, that trying to write about them separately is problematic ... Stho002 (talk) 23:37, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

• WikiProject Philosophy