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July 19

NEW NOMINATIONS

Category:Black-and-white films

Category:Black-and-white films - Template:Lc1
Nominator's rationale: I'm not convinced that having been filmed in black and white is notable. For newer films that are deliberately filmed this way, there is already a list, but of course, many black-and-white films were shot that way as a product of the fact that color film technology didn't exist. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 05:46, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Category:Old Lansing

Category:Provincial fairs

Category:Provincial fairs - Template:Lc1
Nominator's rationale: Merge to Fairs in Canada. This seems to be a mis-adapting of the US term "state fair" to Canada. There is no such thing as a provincial fair, as far as I can tell. Most fairs are organized on a regional or city basis. --Kevlar (talk • contribs) 05:00, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Category:Old Gregorians

  • Rename Category:Old Gregorians to Category:People educated at Downside School
  • Nominators rationale Gregorian brings to mind chants and calendars. It has too many possible other meanings. The new name is striaghtforward, clear and does not invoke any of the controversies other forms do.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:22, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose: This was one of the categories discussed over several weeks here. Old Gregorians is the correct term, as used by the school and its former pupils. Perhaps "Old Gregorians" does bring to mind "chants and calendars" (of saints, that is), but then Downside School is operated by the Gregorian Downside Abbey and the masters are mostly monks, so the association is a rational one. Eliminating the correct name ought to be controversial. Moonraker (talk) 04:41, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment There may have been some discussion of this among in the 380+ category nomination back in Febuary. If there was it was me asking why this school gets to claim a unique connections to Gregorianess as opposed to other schools. However I think that was actually a question about "Old Dominicans", and yet it like many of my other questions went unanswered and clearly begged for more specific nominations to discuss the issue. I would also point out that "correct" is not the operative goal in wikipedia, with category names we seek for clear and expected. I could site many cases where the term most commonly used is not the one occuring, but that might lead to me being ticked into using the forbidden word. I would point out that a few weeks ago there was a discussion that resulted in renaming a few Old fooian formations based on specific objections to them. I think we should do so here as well. Gregorian clearly refers to other things.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:53, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment none of the things mentioned under Gregorian relate to this school. I did learn there is an order of monks whose members are called Gregorians, so retired or deceased members of that order would I guess be "Old Gregorians".John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:55, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment: Dead monks are dead, not old, and I can also confirm that retired members of the Order are not called "Old Gregorians". Moonraker (talk) 05:11, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Support this has nothing to do with old Gregorian telescopes, or the Armenian Apostolic Church and isn't even mentioned at Gregorian. 65.93.15.213 (talk) 06:18, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Category:Hunchbacks

Category:Hunchbacks - Template:Lc1
Nominator's rationale: Delete. This category is incredibly inappropriate per WP:COP. The term "hunchback" is stigmatizing to people with Kyphosis. This is an act of microaggression and offensive to anyone who has disability or illness. Many average people experience this condition and using this term not "colloquial," as described here. It is a word to make people feel bad about themselves, simply. It is called ableism. If you wish to keep this category, I suggest you rename it to Category:People with Kyphosis and eliminate the word hunchback from your pages. Also see here, a discussion on the topic on the TALK PAGE of the very article. Also excuses like "we don't know if they really had Kyphosis" are not appropriate to keep the category. There is a difference between a person talking about their disabilities and choosing their own labels and others labeling them. Henriettapussycat (talk) 04:19, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Delete. Hunchback is the only commonly used term, but it clearly has a very negative connotation and probably can not be kept. No other term is used enough to justify its use. It is also unclear that this is a defining characteristic for most people who it does describe.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:25, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
It is a slur for people with Kyphosis. Much like the word "cripple." Common use is not of issue here. --Henriettapussycat (talk) 04:48, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment. That is why I nominated to delete this. I would also say that assuming that a pejorative has exact eqivalency to a non-pejorative is not wise. It is much easier to delete the category, and have people start over with a new category name and apply it without pejorative intent. If we had a category "Evil money grubbing Jews in pre-World War II Germany" we would not rename it to "Jewish financiers in pre-World War II germany" we would delete it for the POV attack category it was. We should do the same here.John Pack Lambert (talk) 05:26, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
My point was just to say there was no need to comment on commonly used term in this instance.--Henriettapussycat (talk) 05:37, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Category:Old Elizabethans

  • Rename category:Old Elizabethans to Category:People educated at Royal Grammar School Worcester
  • Nominators rationale. This is one of the particular bad Old Fooian forms. First off Old Elizabethans would to some first and foremost mean old people of the Elizabethan era, or people who supported Elizabeth I's ascenion to the throne earliest of everyone. Secondly there are two other school cats that are some sort of Old Elizabethans. It is unclear why this one gets to not be disambiguated. Even worse, the schools current name has no connection to Elizabeth. There are a few renderings of the current name, but this is the one that is used in the article on the school so seems most reasonable. There is lastly a peculiarity reflective of one of the pro-old fooian arguments of the past. It is that the term can be used for those educated at the school under various names. In this case the current school incorporated another school fairly recently. Our precedent on school mergers makes it clear we can put those from the other school in this one, there is no precedent on old fooians to support this, and the main argument to keep that form suggests we must keep those educated at the school now merged into this one seperate.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:12, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Oppose: This was one of the categories discussed over several weeks here. Old Elizabethans is the correct term, as used by the school and its former pupils. However, I agree that there are other Old Elizabethans, and plainly some disambiguation would be correct. I suggest Category:Old Elizabethans (Royal Grammar School, Worcester). Moonraker (talk) 04:36, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Category:Old Leightonians

Category:Old Dunelmians

Category:Downe House Seniors

  • Rename Category:Downe House Seniors to Category:People educated at Downe House School
  • Nominators rationale. This category is meant to be for people educated at Downe House School. However the term "Downhouse Seniors" is only applicable to those who were prefects at the school. We should go for the more broad term.John Pack Lambert (talk) 03:50, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose: This was one of the categories discussed over several weeks here. So far as I am aware, Downe House Seniors is the correct term. I have certainly heard it used of old girls of the school, and if there is any evidence that it refers only to former prefects then can that please be quoted? Moonraker (talk) 04:16, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment I do not believe anyone discussed this category specifically. The evidence for its limited use is the heading of the category itself. Beyond this, where people could argue that the old fooian was part of a general pattern, that can hardly be argued here. However the heading of the category basically says we are misusing it. In fact there is no indication it is a term for former prefects, the heading of the category says it is how current prefects are refered to, at least that is how I read it. That works since we put people in all sorts of categories that only apply in the former case.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:30, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment With the greatest respect, I laughed out loud at your idea that a Misplaced Pages page should be relied upon as if it were a reliable source. Try instead this page of the school's web site, which refers to "the Downe House Seniors' Association, the DHSA". Moonraker (talk) 04:52, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment If we can not trust the header information on category pages to guide us in placing articles in the category, than we have a major problem. This points out why we need to go to category names that have clear meaning outside of school specific jargon. "People educated at" is clear, the current name is not.John Pack Lambert (talk) 05:23, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Support WP:JARGON terminology. It looks like it should be a category for current students in their senior year. 65.93.15.213 (talk) 06:24, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Category:Prisoners sentenced to life imprisonment by Alaska

Category:Prisoners sentenced to life imprisonment by Alaska - Template:Lc1
Nominator's rationale: Delete - 1) It appears as though this category was created expressly for one article, and/or hasn't expanded beyond that in the three years it has existed; 2) More importantly, there is no such thing as a life sentence in Alaska. The maximum sentence is 99 years. The Anchorage-based corporate media has for years tended to refer to lengthy sentences colloquially as "life sentences." Still, that doesn't mean there is such a thing.RadioKAOS (talk) 03:31, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. This is a false identifier and should be removed.John Pack Lambert (talk) 03:50, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Agree as category creator. If I remember correctly I believe at creation there were two articles, but one has since been deleted. If the jurisdiction has no true life sentences, then there's no need for such a category. The article for the person in the category, Robert Hansen, says that for all his offenses together he was sentenced to 461 years' imprisonment, which of course will last his lifetime, but it's true that it's not a legally defined "life sentence". Good Ol’factory 03:54, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Category:Christ's Hospital Old Blues

  • Rename Category:Christ's Hospital Old Blues to Category:People educated at Christ's Hospital
  • Nominators rationale in the discussion section of this category there is a comment that people educated at this institution are refered to merely as Old Blues. This means that the general "this is the used term" justification for the old Fooian type names fails here. We should go for the most clear and easy to understand form then.John Pack Lambert (talk) 03:09, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose: Please see the previous cfd for this category: Category:Old Blues - this resulted in the category name Christ's Hospital Old Blues (instead of the proposed Christ's Hospital alumni). Also, this was one of the categories discussed over several weeks here, when there was great opposition to a general demolition of the standard British format. Old Blues is the correct term, in this case disambiguated by "Christ's Hospital". Moonraker (talk) 04:10, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment the Febuary discussion was of a nature to not allow for much in the way of specific discussion. My proposed name has not been nominated specifically for this before. To act as if that is so is to ignore that Moonraker has brought up the forbidden word for those who were educated at British schools. I am wise enough to not use it.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:32, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment: If you mean the word "alumni", I am certainly against using it for schools in the United Kingdom. However, if you are wise enough not to use that word here, in the previous discussion you wrote on 10 February 2011 "Rename all to the Alumni of Foo form. This may not be the most general term used, but outside of UK sub-tertiary schools some form of "alumni" is the almost universal form." Moonraker (talk) 04:57, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Old Cholmeleians

Old Alleynians

Rename Category:Old Alleynians to Category:People educated at Dulwich College
  • Nominators rationale. The current term has the various non-consistent, jargon drawbacks of all old fooian/old foos/old fooite/old not-really-foo-at-all terms. In this case the connection is not to the school's name, but to the founders name. At that this is not explained in the article that is a list of Old Alleynians, but only in the article on Dulwich College. To make things worse we are told that these people should not be confused with Alleyn's old boys who went to Alleyn's College. We should make sure no confusion happens by moving this category to one that clearly points to the relevant college.John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:41, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose: This was one of the categories discussed over several weeks here. Old Alleynians is the correct term, as used by the school and its former pupils. Moonraker (talk) 04:18, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment this term was not specifically discussed back in Febuary. In a nomination with over 300 categories involved little is specifically said about individual categories. No one discussed the unique confusion of this category name.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:33, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment: I am unable to see any confusion, as "Old Alleynians" has no other meaning. Moonraker (talk) 05:04, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment the Dulwich College article tells us "The term should not be confused with "Alleyn's Old Boys" used for alumni of Alleyn's School." expecting people to intuitively know that those who went to Alleyn's School are not Old Alleynians is quite a bit much.John Pack Lambert (talk) 05:19, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Old Lancastrians

Old Bristolians

Category:Great French War

Category:Great French War - Template:Lc1
Category:Client states of the Great French War - Template:Lc1
Nominator's rationale: Delete. The article Great French War was recently deleted for being a neologism. Because of this deletion, the corresponding categories should also be deleted. The second might be able to be salvaged as a rename to Category:Client states of the Napoleonic Wars, but I am unsure as I am non-expert in this area. Good Ol’factory 02:17, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Icenians

Rename Category:Icenians to category:People educated at Langley School, Loddon
Nominators rationale This has the same drawbacks as do the old formations, except it is not even an old formation. It is thus even less likely to be understood. Beyond that there is no obvious way in which the these two terms connect.John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:08, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose: This was one of the categories discussed over several weeks here. Icenians is the correct term, as used by the school and its former pupils. Moonraker (talk) 04:21, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment there was no discussion of this term which does not conform to any other usage. There is no explanation anywhere why these are Icenians and not Old Icenians. If there is an explanation of how Icenian conects to Langley, I have forgotten it. It is not in anyway evident from the name.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:44, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Old Decanians

  • Rename Category:Old Decanians to Category:People educated at Dean Close School
  • Nominators rationale This is a phrase that like all other Old Fooian terms is jargon. It is worse here than in most. Decanian is not in any obvious way connected to Dean Close. The category heading does explain there is a connection, but it does not tell us how the one term is derived from the other. Nor does the article on this school give any light to way those educated at this school become Decanians.John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:01, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose: This was one of the categories discussed over several weeks here. Old Decanians is the correct term, as used by the school and its former pupils. The word Decanians is simply derived from the Latin word for 'dean'. Moonraker (talk) 04:23, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Old Dragons

Rename Category:Old Dragons to Category:People educated at Dragon School
Nominators rationale. An old dragon is a dragon that is aged. Even with the one letter difference in punctutation many will expect this category to be that. The new name makes it much clearer what this is.John Pack Lambert (talk) 01:56, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose: This was one of the categories discussed over several weeks here. Old Dragons is the correct term, as used by the school and its former pupils. Dragons, old or young, are creatures of fantasy, so there is no room for misunderstanding. Moonraker (talk) 04:26, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Category:Old Georgians

Category:Quebecois sculptors

Propose renaming Category:Quebecois sculptors to Category:Quebec sculptors
Nominator's rationale: Not sure if I can speedy this, but the standard adjectival form is "Quebec," per other occupations in Category:People from Quebec by occupation. It's the same for all the provinces. For example, Category:Canadian civil servants at the national level, then, Category:Ontario civil servants not Category:Ontarian civil servants. There's a wiki page somewhere that lists all the national and subnational adjectives and I have tried in vain to find it. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 00:11, 19 July 2011 (UTC)