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See also: Misplaced Pages talk:Non-free content criteria exemptions

Are vector files of copyrighted/trademarked images allowed?

I'm not sure if this is the proper place to ask, but it seems as good as any since my question deals with non-free content. I sometimes help improve images over at the Graphic Lab, and once in a while there will be a request to create an SVG version of a raster image (usually a logo) that is copyrighted and requires the addition of a fair use rationale for every article in which it appears. And usually someone will oblige and create a vector version, which makes the image infinitely scalable. My question is, how does this not run afoul of the image use policy and non-free content guidelines? (Or maybe it does?) Since in more than one place I have read that part of the fair use rationale is that the image being used is sufficiently low resolution, it seems like making a version with an effectively infinite resolution would be unacceptable. Could anyone clarify or point me to any prior discussion on the topic, if any exists? -MissMJ (talk) 04:16, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

One has to make a call if the logo fails the Threshold of Originality - that it, if the logo is simple enough - containing just text, basic shapes, and the like - there is no "sweat of the brow" in creating the work and it becomes ineligible for copyright. Such logos that fall within this are completely appropriate to put into SVG and allow for infinite scaling. On the other hand, more complex logos that do pass the Threshold and is copyrightable, must follow NFCC, and an SVG image of that logo would be inappropriate due to the infinite scaling (the recreation of the logo is a derivative work, the copyright still to the original creator). --MASEM (t) 04:23, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
So if a logo is already tagged with {{PD-textlogo}} (or should be), like File:Boeing wordmark.svg, then it's fine to create a vector version of it, but if it's tagged with {{non-free logo}}, like File:Whirlpoolcorp2010logo.jpg, a vector version shouldn't be created? But then you run into something like File:Boeing-Logo.svg, which is a non-free logo, and has all the requisite qualifiers of needing to be sufficiently low res, but an SVG of it exists anyway. Seems kinda shady to provide it, even if it's followed by "this image should not be rendered any larger than is required," because why not just have a small enough raster file and avoid the issue altogether?... -MissMJ (talk) 04:55, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
I would argue that that logo should not be present on WP as an SVG, even if it is possible, presuming that the graphics are sufficiently unique for copyright. (I would further argue that because we have the free wordmark, the non-free logo image is unnecessary, but that's assuming that there's no further discussion on the graphic itself, but that's not a discussion here). SVGs of non-free images should not be allowed due to the nature of infinite resolution. --MASEM (t) 06:31, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
Makes sense. Thank you! -MissMJ (talk) 07:07, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
It's been my experience that non-free SVG logos have been allowed for years (provided they have a fair-use rationale and meet all other other requirements for non-free works). In general, they reproduce the logo/trademark more accurately. I know it was discussed here; thought that they used to be mentioned on Misplaced Pages:Logos but I don't see it now. Use the {{SVG-Logo}} tag. Making our own vector versions of trademarked logos, as opposed to converting ones directly made by the company in questions, is slightly dicier from a trademark perspective though -- they need to be very accurate, as if they are inaccurate in some detail they could be seen as diluting the trademark (even when used in an educational context). It would usually be preferable to find a PDF or other vector version directly from the company in question, to eliminate those trademark questions. Carl Lindberg (talk) 15:29, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
People have apparently tolerated or even supported non-free SVGs for years as Carl above points out, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me--they are far higher resolution than Misplaced Pages will ever need from a fair-use standpoint, and raise issues of bad tracing/redrawing of the images: in short I think they violate a whole mess of WP:NFCC, but I've had lots of people tell me that SVGs that can be drawn at X resolution are not "high-resolution", which I simply don't understand. Masem brings up a good point in that trademarked images might be less problematic. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 15:47, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
There already are too many vector images in Misplaced Pages that are copyrighted! Evidently, Wikimedia foundation can be sued for distributing copyrighted images in the highest quality possible:∞*∞ resolution. Perhaps no one does that because Misplaced Pages serves a noble cause. I personally want Misplaced Pages to be in possession of these copyrighted images which greatly add to the quality of the encyclopedia. We should take up this issue with the legal committee of Wikimedia foundation (in the hope that we will be able to find a justification for continuing our vectorization drive). In the worst case we will have to rasterize all the vector non-free images in Misplaced Pages to a suitable resolution! We will have to, either start to Imagine a world in which every single person on the planet is given free access to the sum of all free human knowledge!? or amend the law! – Aditya 7  ¦  16:55, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
If we allow non-free vector images, isn't it illogical to not allow high resolution non-free raster images; given that high resolution raster images can very easily be embedded in SVG images! – Aditya 7  ¦  18:38, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

This comes up every couple of years or so. The standing advice is that the SVG is fine, so long as it doesn't contain a more detailed vector description than that needed to render the logo at the resolution we render non-free bitmap logos at. Yes, the vector description can be cleanly re-rendered at abritrary scales, but so long as it doesn't contain any additional detail intentionally included that would be invisible at the resolution we need, that has been seen to be acceptable.
Ideally, the vector description should come from a pdf issued by the company itself, rather than a user tracing or user-recreation. An important thing is to present the mark to fairly reflect the trademark holder's design, to avoid tarnishing the brand. From a legal perspective, that is probably a much more significant consideration than the absolute size of the image, which, since the basic case for fair use in the way we use the graphic here is so strong, probably would not be held to much affect the degree of the copyright taking. Jheald (talk) 19:25, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

I can argue fairly that an SVG logo that passes the ToO, pulled from a PDF or equivalent created by the company represented by the logo, is fine for these reasons - we aren't recreating anything ourselves. I would question a non-free SVG logo created by a WPian in the same fashion. --MASEM (t) 19:38, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
J, then the question is why use a vector when we can use a raster image that has the same amount of content at a specified resolution, no larger than would ever be necessary for our purposes? Vector non-free images are completely unnecessary and in violation of WP:NFCC, unless you can explain how an image that can be rendered without loss of quality at X number of megapixels qualifies as "low resolution" no matter what. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 19:46, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
I would not eliminate user-made vectors; they probably make sense in some situations (particularly where the trademark may have lapsed but the copyright hasn't, and there are no vector versions available). There is no real difference, copyright-wise, so there is no difference to their "free"-ness. The only issue is one of trademark, really, and that would usually be pretty thin (it would have to be visibly inaccurate I think to be an issue -- we wouldn't want to misrepresent something visibly incorrect as their official logo). There really is no good reason to disallow SVGs in my opinion; they are flexible and would look (much) better in print as well, if that is needed. Misplaced Pages articles are not always just for websites. Quite frankly companies would often prefer it anyways since they will almost always look better when generated from the vector source. The fair use arguments would be the same; there is no real difference between them and rasters I don't think. The main issue is having more expression than we need; for rasters image size could be argued, for vectors, it's more in the amount of detail present (i.e. if there is lots of tiny details not seen at regular sizes, we could strip that out). The amount of copyrightable expression we host in an SVG is identical no matter the resolution so the image size becomes completely meaningless (just make sure we don't render it any bigger than we really need in actual use I guess). Most logos are designed to look OK at small sizes anyways so there is rarely any of that type of tiny detail. The issue has been brought up several times and I'm pretty sure consensus was to keep them. Carl Lindberg (talk) 01:13, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
It doesn't really matter if there's the exact same visual information or not—resolution is different from detail anyhow. An SVG unequivocably fails WP:NFCC C.2 ; we can use a low-resolution raster, so we should. The whole "companies would prefer it" is at best untestable and at worst plainly false; if it were true companies would be packaging the Illustrator eps files or svgs with their brand packaging. Given that it is easier to use SVGs for other purposes I'm pretty sure most wouldn't. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 02:15, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
And unneeded detail is the crux of that NFCC criteria, not resolution per se. (And yes, companies often give out vector versions of the logos, though they usually want someone to sign a trademark agreement first -- they may wish the vector versions were not available here, but that is not something that trademark or copyright law would explicitly forbid. There is likely not much they can do about brandsoftheworld.com either.) Carl Lindberg (talk) 03:18, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
Trademark is not the issue here (as long as we're using logos in educational purposes). It is also not a fair-use issue in that such use of logos are ok. It is an issue with non-free content when the logo can be copyrighted. The Foundation Resolution says nothing directly about resolution, but its our NFCC that says "Low- rather than high-resolution/fidelity/bit rate is used". Now, again, I can understand that if the original medium can be grabbed from an official source in an SVG medium, that's great, but really, if we're making the exception for logos, someone is going to complain somewhere down the line that if logos get that freedom, then why not other copyrighted art that *could* be recreated as SVG (there's not much but things like Piet Mondrian's modern art or South Park come to mind). I'd rather see non-free SVG converted to an appropriate sized PNG to avoid raising any exemptions that people will want for other images. I know it's longstanding that it's ok, but this is a very good question raised that we should address.
That said, if there is some way to judge how low fidelity of the details of an SVG image that can be used as a fair metric for judging when a non-free SVG is still representative of the logo without being detailed beyond what non-SVG images at low resolution should be. --MASEM (t) 01:49, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
That is a good example where the NFCC guideline does not work as a one-size-fits-all type of thing. When you are talking about a non-free photograph, resolution is quite important -- there is an awful lot of expression present in a high-resolution photograph that we do not need to illustrate the article; people pay more for larger-resolution photographs for a reason. That part of the criteria is very good when it comes to those. When it comes to simplistic logos, high-resolution versions usually don't add all that much -- the expression present is usually not that different and there are rarely small details which become visible. When it comes to an SVG, there is no resolution, so the criteria is meaningless really. The expression we are hosting and using is almost always the same no matter what resolution we render it at. If an SVG has some intricate details which are only visible at a high resolution, then that is a fair parallel to the photograph-centered NFCC criteria, which would probably be better worded as "more detail than required". They have different parallels for non-free audio or video already; some other wording for vector is likely needed. For example, if they were non-free, File:File:DirigibleR80.svg and File:DouglasDC3Drawing.svg (say the detail around the wheels, or interior of the engine) would have unnecessary detail not visible at the resolution needed to give the user an idea of the image, and we could strip a lot out without really affecting our use. Not as easy as scaling down or downsampling, but something we should think about if possible. Some SVGs may have hidden elements meant for aiding editing which are not visible in the final display -- those would be unnecessary as well. It's certainly possible logos may have stuff like that, though my guess is that is rare, since usually the point is to make logos recognizable at small sizes so there is usually no intricate detail. Carl Lindberg (talk) 03:06, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
Our use of logos is not to capture details that can only be seen at high resolution. We use non-free logos to connect the logo to the entity it represents, and should use a size and resolution that is no larger than necessary to assure that connection. Take, for example, the logo for ING File:ING.svg. The definitive element, the lion, is clearly seen at 200px, and it is very doubtful that an average reader, after seeing the lion at that size, wouldn't be able to connect the logo again to ING in the future. There is no need for a 2000px image to show the finer work of the various detail within the lion, unless there is sourced discussion that showing these elements would be necessary for comprehension (checking the ING article, though , that's not the case). --MASEM (t) 03:13, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

]

Perhaps you are more of a fan Masem? Prodego 02:06, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
No, I'm just following NFCC. The Pepsi logo you included is non-free, and we can't use it on talk pages, period. Free images like the coke one are ok. --MASEM (t) 02:22, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
So, the consensus is to allow non-free images (vector or otherwise) when they contain only the necessary amount of details that are visible at the fair-use resolution (160k pixels). Right? – Aditya 7  ¦  05:08, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
Seems to be what may be agreeable here. One aside is that companies will often contribute their own logo, particularly if it has changed as they want to keep it current. Obviously they are granting permissions for its appearance on Misplaced Pages in the form that they donate, even if it falls in the the non-free category. We should encourage dialog with organizations on the topic of their logos on Misplaced Pages, and not just rely on mindless application of criteria that may not actually be in the best interests of copyright/trademark holders or Misplaced Pages. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 08:51, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Whoops, I seem to have inadvertently poked a hornet's nest here. >_> Some things:

  • It bugs me that the discussion progressed to only include talk about corporate logos. You will notice I was very careful to talk about images in general and not just corporate logos—even though logos seem to be the majority of these types of cases—since sometimes this applies to things like government emblems, seals, NGO logos (like File:WWF logo.svg), etc. Some of these entities don't publish PDFs with their images in them, so it's not just a matter of "well, we're not recreating it because there's a PDF." Sometimes there is no PDF.
  • I find the discussion about level of detail to be, quite frankly, utterly inane. Most of the images in question are fairly simple shapes—since these are the types of drawings most appropriate for vectorization. File:Boeing-Logo.svg doesn't have any details that are visible at 1000px that aren't visible at 200px, and neither do File:Pepsi_logo_2008.svg or File:WWF logo.svg. You can't make the argument of "well, we're not including any details in the SVG so it's okay to have it." The level of detail yardstick may work well for raster images, but for vector images it just sounds to me like definitions are being seriously stretched to justify something that otherwise could not be justified.
  • There was a recent request on Misplaced Pages:Graphic_Lab/Illustration_workshop to fix File:SouthSudanCoatofArms.svg (request seems to have since been removed for using non-free images in a gallery), because people were using it instead of File:SouthSudanCoatofArms.png. Here's an example of a fairly detailed, copyrighted image. Someone got lazy and instead of doing it properly, just ran it through an auto-trace function. Not only does the resulting SVG look awful, but what is the point of its existence? Using it in its current form dilutes the South Sudan coat of arms because it's not a faithful reproduction of what it looks like, but even if someone spent an ungodly amount of time fixing this SVG, what would be the point? It's not like you could simplify it to fit with the whole "we don't include as many details in our SVGs so it's okay" business, because, once again, it would dilute/misrepresent it. And if you traced it faithfully, well, it would look just like the PNG when rendered at 300px a side!

So it seems to me like creating SVG versions of non-free images is just doing a lot of useless work. Even if it's as easy as getting a vector out of an official PDF and uploading it: why? Why provide an infinite resolution image when you could just use that PDF version to export a raster file at maximum resolution that falls under fair use and upload it. Why do we need a file with infinite resolution if it should/will never be rendered higher than a certain threshold resolution to comply with fair use standards?

Anyway, I just wanted to see what people's thoughts were, and if I was maybe missing something here, in order to formulate a personal policy of whether I would work on requests for vectorizing non-free images. Whatever the consensus ends up being here, I think my policy will be to let someone else handle this kind of work. -MissMJ (talk) 20:22, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

One important point about vector images is that they're not just about higher resolutions. They're also better for lower resolutions, or similar resolutions. For example, we might have a bitmap with a width of 300px, but display it at 200px; or some people may have preferences set to display it at 240px, or 180 px or whatever. Reducing the resolution of a bitmap in addition to the reduced resolution causes blurring -- even with good interpolation software. With a vector image, that can often substantially be avoided.
As for your emphasis on non-profit organisations like the WWF, it seems to me that they have as much interest as anyone in seeing their logo rendered as sharply and clearly as possible, the way it was created to be seen, despite a limited image size; rather than as an unnecessarily blurred and blotchy mess. Jheald (talk) 22:16, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
Most of our logos, etc. are encapsulated in infoboxes where the sizes are specifically decided beforehand, so scaling is rarely an issue for these images (and Misplaced Pages's PNG scaling seems quite good; JPEG isnt unfortunately.) But that doesn't override the issue of images with higher resolutions than we will ever need. There is no policy issue regarding scaling down. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 18:56, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

So what are we supposed to do?

After months of kerfluffle regarding numismatics articles, we're now effectively back to where we started. I know the supporters of the use of these images would say we're right back to where we should be. Please, bear with me. I'm not trying to start another war.

Allow me to use a case example. As of now, Commemorative coins of Poland: 2008 is the #1 user of non-free content by article on the entire project. See this report (note: #1 is inaccurate, as those files have recently been deemed free license for our purposes). This article uses 44 non-free images. I note several problems with this article and the images it uses;

  • There is 44kb of text in the article. Do we really need 44 images to support 44kb of text? There's no policy or guideline on this of course, but there is no featured article on the project (based on sampling of WP:FA) with anywhere near this 1:1 ratio of non-free content usage.
  • 22 of the 44 images have dimensions exceeded 1000 pixels. Per this template noting NFCC policy, the sizes need to be reduced.
  • 17 of 18 of the external references used link to the Polish Mint (3) or the National Bank of Poland (14). These are primary sources. Per that policy, "Do not base articles entirely on primary sources". Sure, 1 of the 18 is not a primary source, but the article is effectively based on primary sources.
  • The only non-primary source is the Polish Numismatics Society. The only place that is used is to support assertions of the market value of five coins. Further, a numismatics society is a tertiary source. There's no secondary sourcing for this article at all.
  • All of the uses of images violate WP:NFTABLE, which discourages the use of non-free content in tabular format. The problem here is that there is no critical commentary of the designs in any respect. The entire meat of the article is comprised of descriptive summations of the 44 designs.
  • All of the images have a fair use rationale. To some, that would appear that it meets WP:NFCC #10c. But, on closer inspection every single "purpose of use" stated for the images is "Currency picture". A few have additional text (below the rationale box) of "Demonstrative of the layout of Polish currency". If that is a valid reason for use, then there would be absolutely no reason why we can not use non-free images for every single currency item in the world. Sure, you could update the rationale to something lengthy and sounding good, but in practice the only thing these images are being used for is displaying the coins. That's it.
  • Per WP:NOTGALLERY, Misplaced Pages is not a mere collection of photographs. But, that's what we have here, plus technical details. There's no encyclopedic content.
  • Per WP:NOTEVERYTHING, Misplaced Pages is not a complete exposition of all possible details. Yet, that's what we have here. There's no summary of accepted knowledge regarding these coins. It's just a reposting of technical details from primary sources. If I were to create an article on a company listed on a stock exchange that had the name, logo, and technical details of the company and nothing else it would likely be deleted. But, this doesn't?
  • Per WP:INDISCRIMINATE, Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information. But, that's what we have here; an indiscriminate collection of every technical detail of each of these coins.

As it stands, I could take a number of actions. I could;

  • Place the article for AfD. It would be kept, even though it's based entirely on primary sources which is prohibited by policy (the one tertiary source not withstanding).
  • Remove the images as violating WP:NFCC #8 and #3a. They would be restored by several people who insist it is appropriate use. This already happened.
  • Tag all the images as disputed fair use because the rationales are woefully weak, and without changing the way in which they are used in the article they will remain woefully weak. All those taggings would of course be undone, and I'd probably be accused of a WP:POINT violation. There might be an effort to lengthen the purposes of use, and almost certainly without changing the nature of use, leaving the rationales still woefully weak.
  • Rewrite the article to be more of an article rather than a reposting of technical details of these coins. It would be reverted for not following Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Numismatics/Style/Currency_article#Coins.

Now, please understand, I'm not assuming bad faith here. I am well cognizant of what typically happens and this is it. So, regardless of policy we are stuck with an article that fails our requirements in a large number of ways. In this case, we've carved out a specialist class of articles that comprises some of the heaviest users of non-free content on the project (60% of the non-free content in the top 20 alone) that are untouchable. Numismatics now effectively have a special exclusion that makes them immune to actions based on the violations I've noted above. No, it's not written down anywhere, but that's effectively what we have. Is this really what we want? --Hammersoft (talk) 20:30, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

While I think there would be more trouble if these were the common currency of Poland, the fact they are "commemorative" coinage means they shouldn't get anywhere near the same type of pass (what exists of that) for regular country currency. Add to that that each table explains exactly what the two sides of the coin bears, and the visual representation becomes unnecessary.
I wouldn't "fight" this on the notability aspect. I'm sure with a bit of prodding, there could be sources from newspapers explaining the release of these coins, so that's not the way to do it.
But it is non-free, it is a list-style article with what otherwise seem to be non-notable individual coins, and there's no discussion of the artwork on the coins beyond the description. Clearly this needs to be reduced. The numismatics projects has not provided any strong reason for keeping them beyond that being their status quo, and seem unable to accept the use of a few example images as demonstration. (It would be more difficult with the commemorative coins as they have no fixes series, but again, the visual appearance of the coins is not necessary to understanding). --MASEM (t) 20:49, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
One might ask how removing any of the coin images from that article about coins actually furthers the non-free content mission. They are not replaceable by free content, there is no legitimate question about the legality of such an informational use, and there is no concrete benefit given to downstream users by reducing an article from 15 non-free images of coins to 10 or some other arbitrary lower number. The only thing that might be accomplished would be rote compliance with stated guidelines and nothing more. So I fail to see how there is any 3rd Pillar interest here that could possibly outweigh the 1st Pillar interest in providing information. This simply isn't a battle worth fighting. postdlf (talk) 21:10, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
That's a slippery slope argument that can be applied to a huge list of articles, not just coins. The thing that WP can take advantage of is that we are not the end-all, be-all of information, as some tend to think we are. We are a tertiary source, summarizing primary and secondary sources. We want people that are researching a subject to use those resources for better authority on the topic. To that end, there is no need to display every coin minted by a country if it conflicts with our free content mission. A representative sample helps to identify the topic but beyond that it only hurts the mission. --MASEM (t) 21:22, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
The opinion that it "hurts the mission" is exactly what I was contesting. postdlf (talk) 23:15, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
The mission aspects are two-fold: we want to educate at a tertiary level and maintain a free content encyclopedia that uses non-free content under exceptional circumstances. To education a reader on the commemorative coins from a country, I argue that we maintain the same educational mission by showing a representative sample alongside descriptions of what coins not illustrated contained, and links to where non-free content is not an issue where these coins can all be displayed, and at the same time, we improve our goal to the free content mission. --MASEM (t) 23:28, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
You're still begging the question instead of responding to my points. postdlf (talk) 22:03, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Well then what do you propose? Coin/note articles still constitute 22 of the top 50 articles in terms of most use of non-free content, and 57% of the non-free content uses in the top 50. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:33, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
  • I don't think the abstract numbers mean anything. So I propose that we don't try to reduce images for the mere purpose of reducing numbers, but should rather analyze what the actual consequence is on the non-free mission and on the encyclopedic mission. To restate my analysis of the images in coin articles from above: "They are not replaceable by free content, there is no legitimate question about the legality of such an informational use, and there is no concrete benefit given to downstream users by reducing an article from 15 non-free images of coins to 10 or some other arbitrary lower number." postdlf (talk) 18:45, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
  • As Masem has noted, every use of a non-free item has an impact on the free content mission of the project. The question of legality is rather meaningless in this context. We don't use content that we can't legally use anyway. It's a moot point, unless you are asserting that we should use as our inclusion metric that if it's legal, it's ok. Is that your stance? There's no target for a certain number that I have in mind. The point is the encyclopedic, rather than guide, purpose. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:48, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
  • "They are not replaceable by free content, there is no legitimate question about the legality of such an informational use, and there is no concrete benefit given to downstream users by reducing an article from 15 non-free images of coins to 10 or some other arbitrary lower number." ≠ "if it's legal, it's ok." I've already noted below my criticism of the abstract assertion that "every use of a non-free item has an impact on the free content mission." postdlf (talk) 19:09, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
I'm not begging the question. We have two likely results here: use all the commemorative coin images, maintaining a high commitment to eductional purposes but harming the free content mission; or use a few representative images to commit to the free content mission but harming the educational one. My point here is that the delta between the educational case between the first and second cases is not that much: images or not, we are still informing people of what these coins are, the images help a bit but there's other resources for that. However, the delta for the same for the free content mission is much worse off in the second case. We want to take the path of least harm to the overall work, and ergo, the reduction of non-free is the best solution. --MASEM (t) 13:43, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
You still haven't identified the harm here to the non-free mission, you've just nakedly asserted it, after I had explained why I saw no actual harm to the non-free mission here. You've only presented a reasonable argument as to why the informational value might be minimal, but even minimal informational value would outweigh zero harm to the non-free mission. It's possible I've overlooked something, but you haven't demonstrated that. I respect you, Masem, but it's a little frustrating when comments repeatedly follow mine but aren't really replies because they don't actually respond or rebut. And it's one of the reasons why NFC is, in my view, one of the least functioning of Misplaced Pages forums: attempts to bring the discussions out of vague abstractions into actual analysis of concrete consequences are usually ignored, in favor of what amount to mere slogans. postdlf (talk) 15:56, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
I've explained the harm: every time we use a non-free image, it hurts the free content mission. Of course, WP:VEGAN completely applies, and we have to recognize that the Foundation has said it is ok to use non-free improve the value of the educational aspect, and at en.wiki, we clearly do have NFC allowances. However, when we use multiple NFC when there are more freer alternatives available that maintain the same educational standard (freer, including fewer non-free images, but does not have to be zero), we hurt the free mission goal since we're not taking the freer content path. --MASEM (t) 16:04, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
No, that's not an explanation, that's still an assertion of opinion without any deconstruction or concrete, real-world application. We've had this conversation before in the currency RFC. My stance here is that in an article that is necessarily going to have some non-free images, for which there is no question as to the legality of their use, and the use of those images cannot replace free images, it is of no additional consequence to the non-free mission for that article to have X+1 non-free images (or X-1 non-free images) instead of X. I believe this applies to the coin article; it may or may not apply to other articles. Unless you can explain to me how I am wrong, please let someone else comment. I'd even be satisfied with hypotheticals. postdlf (talk) 18:19, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
If you cannot understand the issue between using X and X+1 non-free files on a page and how we are to approach the free content mission, then its going to be very difficult to convince you of any other solution. The only thing I can point to is that the Foundation has asked us to keep non-free content to minimal use while serving the same encyclopedic purpose (meaning X is strongly preferred over X+1 if little to no educational value is lost). Again, my postulate is that for currency articles, an example (front and back) of a typical coin or bill, along with a table listing the descriptions of the front and back of the other coins in the series has the same educational value within the context of a tertiary, encyclopedic work as does a visual image of each one. --MASEM (t) 22:16, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
The Foundation directive to "minimize" non-free content doesn't determine an obvious or specific answer here. Its use in the coin article is already consistent with the minimizing rules of not using it where it is merely decorative (at the very least) or otherwise without informational value, and not using it where it could supplant free content. It's very easy to see the real benefit from both of those rules and how those further the non-free content mission. It is not easy to see, however, that we gain anything by further minimizing its use in the manner you and Hammersoft urge here for coin and currency articles. So yes, I'm challenging your interpretation that it is necessary or constructive to further limit the absolute number by some arbitrary amount in an article that is, no matter what, going to have at least some non-free images, just for the sake of reducing the number used. I simply don't see the benefit. Maybe I'm dense, but I'm far from the first experienced editor to raise this question, and your inability to answer it beyond complete vagaries suggests that it's not a question with an obvious answer. Or if you're simply unwilling to answer it, then you should have let someone else reply rather than telling me my question is dumb or (as it really feels in this discussion) heretical. postdlf (talk) 17:39, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
I've answered the question several times but it seems not be the answer you're looking for. Trying to meet the free mission goal via reduction (not necessarily the elimination) of non-free content while retaining educational value is a philosophy that we need all need to be thinking about every time we use NFC. On en.wiki, we know there's a practical minimum level of NFC that we can't really pass without a sea change (eg the use of covers for identification virtually assures one non-free on every notable published work), but those that are trying to keep this mission in mind are always asking "can we do better?". It may seem stupid to fight to push against a threshold we can't pass, but the idea is to keep preparing for the future, since NFC is added at a pretty high rate (Hammersoft can likely provide that number), and we need to keep vigilent to make sure that the current state of NFC keeps moving towards the acceptable minimum and not away from it.
That's important why in the case of these coin articles, that we recognize there is a significant opportunity to cut down the number of non-frees - certainly not eliminating them completely from an article, but recognizing that we have a case where images are simply being displayed next to non-commentary text about the item in question. In most other articles, these would fall into decoration, and per accepted NFC policy, are generally not appropriate (even when argued that a picture is worth a thousand words.) We recognize that some example images are appropriate to capture what the coins in general look like, and that with text, the rest can be determined by a reasonably average reader of WP, and even then, there's plenty of references to official mint sites and other pages that replicate these images. The user is ultimately not denied of the images, but even considering in the context of a standalone, printed out WP article, they can still understand the topic in a manner fitting an encyclopedia. And now, importantly back to the larger issue of the mission, this same mindset can be applied to any similar type of list articles. This is not to rule out unique circumstances, say, where coins have some individual commentary about them that a visual image would help represent, but in general, this doesn't seem to happen a lot. So while we're focusing on one article, taking 20-odd images down to 2, if you start thinking about how many coin and bill articles there are that use NFC now, even if about 100 total, that's potentially on the order of 2000 non-free uses we can cut down out without losing our educational focus. I think the total # of NFC is around 400,000, so that's a 0.5% reduction right there. Identification of improvements at small scales can be used to drastically improve our handling of the free content mission at the large scale. --MASEM (t) 18:07, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

In an attempt to bring this back around; Postdlf, after reading my initial posting in this thread, do you still feel that articles such as Euro gold and silver commemorative coins (France): 2007 are just fine as they are? --Hammersoft (talk) 18:49, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm not seeing the problem in light of the observations I've made above. It just seems like the equivalent of "two many notes" (cf. Amadeus). postdlf (talk) 17:39, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
I mostly don't see a problem. Part of the guidelines are to facilitate the judicious use of non-free content to support the development of a high-quality encyclopedia. In short, we shouldn't be markedly inferior to other encyclopedias where articles are begging for an illustration, where we refuse to add one because the subject is inherently non-free. I think commemorative coins are inherently notable, and they are also an inherently visual topic, and it seems ridiculous to not allow an illustration for them. I don't think noting every single commemorative is indiscriminate at all, or violates those "notable" type of guidelines. If a government is going to make a commemorative coin, there is always going to be significant public interest on what the coin is, and why it was issued (otherwise why issue it?) -- those are easy reasons for an article in basically every case, in my opinion. While each coin could have its own article, it appears to me they are currently in a combined-type of article, due to lack of enough current content to support multiple articles. In those particular cases, I don't think WP:NFLISTS should apply; each section should be treated as an individual article since they are only grouped by convenience at the moment. If there *are* individual articles, then sure that's different -- we only need one illustration of a non-free coin, and that should be in the most relevant place.
The main issue I have though is not only are the coins non-free, but the *photographs* are non-free too. There is a big difference, and there is nothing preventing someone from making freely-licensed photographs of the non-free coins (licensing the photographic portion anyways), and uploading them. Right now, there are two authors where we are risking copyright violations -- the coin designer (or government), and the photographer. There is no way around the first one (and actually, photos of the entire coin get into fuzzy areas of copyright law where there may be defenses separate than fair use -- in some cases they may not be derivative works in the first place). But, there certainly is a way around the second one -- there is no good need to risk violating the copyright of the photographer, when we could replace that in a "free" manner. While using one image may be OK, we are likely using a whole bunch of images from a single source website, and that gets harder and harder to defend. Carl Lindberg (talk) 22:40, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
If individual coins were notable, then certainly one can argue that a separate article would grant acceptance to use a non-free for demonstrating them, along the same lines as cover art. I will note that there is a grey line that is still under debate of "not-quite-list" articles which have taken short but notable articles and merged into one larger, more comprehensive and better topic, in which the question whether the use of non-free to illustrate each element is appropriate or not. However, the article above in question and in fact most of these coin articles cannot fall into that class as they are written as no coin is shown any special notability per WP's rules. They exist, a list of them make sense within our purposes, but they just aren't notable on their own. Ergo, demonstrating each one is simply decorative and unnecessary given that other non-WP resources can serve this purpose. --MASEM (t) 23:07, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
And in my opinion every commemorative coin issued by a national government should be easily notable by themselves. They are supposed to be of interest to an entire nation. Commemorative coins issued by private random organizations... well sure, those are different. Carl Lindberg (talk) 23:35, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
We're talking WP's notion of notability, not the general concept. There are a lot of things that outside of WP would be called "notable" but within WP, lack of detailed sourcing discourages us from having articles on these. --MASEM (t) 23:39, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
Sure, but I find it hard to believe there are no reliable sources about commemoratives issued by a federal government (there must be documentation somewhere on why they decided to make the coin, etc.). They may be in other languages, but it's difficult to argue they don't exist -- seems like a bit of wikilawyering when there really isn't a doubt of the existence of these things. And references do seem to be present for those coins as well. Anyways, this isn't really the topic for this discussion I don't think -- if the coins weren't notable, then agreed I don't think there is a need to illustrate all of them, but in this case I simply disagree in that regard. Notability should be decided elsewhere and by others, really -- if the articles exist, that aspect probably shouldn't be questioned much here. Carl Lindberg (talk) 00:50, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

When the topic of the paragraph, section etc. is an object (e.g. coin, emblem, logo, stamp etc.) the appearance of the object is itself significant information. Any context/significance-in-the article criteria (e.g. #8) that says (or is routinely interpreted as saying) that illustration of the discussed object fails it's test is a defective or badly worded criteria that should be changed / fixed. This is just common sense. North8000 (talk) 14:06, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

That would lead to incredible overuse and abuse of NFC, gaming of the system to apply to, say, specific scenes from every tv show and movie, every fictional character, etc. It may be common sense for any other work where they don't have a free content mission, but not WP. --MASEM (t) 14:17, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Well, when the subject is non-free item, there are not going to be non-free images of it. Are you saying that the "free" objective overrides the objective creation of a quality encyclopedia?
On another broader note, any system that tries to get someone who labored to create something to 100% give away the right to the fruits of their labor, including authorizing unlimited commercial use by people who did not create it is a crap system that should be changed. North8000 (talk) 20:51, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
One idea that I always had is this; has anyone thought about just combining the obverse and reverse of the images into one image? Sure, that is not the formatting the templates use, but perhaps strikes a balance (I think) into showing what these coins (and I would include bills) look like while cutting down on overall non-free images. Thoughts? User:Zscout370 20:59, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
The two sides of a coin - if not published by the original copyright owner, are two different copyrights, and thus a resulting nonfree image is still effectively non-free (two copyrights in the derivative work). That's why a montage of the coins won't work either, you're not reducing the non-free use count even though it "technically" is fewer images. --MASEM (t) 22:20, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
If the subject has significant discussion about it, it likely warrants its own article, and ergo, likely its own non-free image in conjunction with that discussion. If it is just an entry in a table, then no.
And if you don't understand the process of Creative Commons and what you yourself are contributing here, you're probably at the wrong project to contribute to. --MASEM (t) 22:20, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
I know it will not work for every situation, but I was not sure if that was considered or not. User:Zscout370 22:27, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Rational for emailed photoshopped images

There are tons of photoshopped images of no monetary value circulating on the internet. Occasionally one of them will become politically, historically, or culturally notable, such as this one, which was emailed by a government official with a comment tying it to the birther conspiracy. I would expect that such things happen often enough that we might want a specific licensing rational for them. Any thoughts? — kwami (talk) 20:26, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

  • You want a boilerplate rationale for photoshopped images? Album covers for album articles, yes. For this? Each image would need a different sort of rationale. Unless, we had a boilerplate rationale that said "We believe this photoshopped image qualifies as fair use because it's photoshopped". Hmm. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:39, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Bibliography different from discography?

I have removed nonfree images at Terence Reese bibliography, explaining that, in my view, the article was similar to a discography and thus the images were not justifiable. The article's primary creator has reverted. Another few sets of eyes/opinions would be welcome. (ESkog) 20:34, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree with your analysis. That said, I believe it would be better to allow images in discographies and bibliographies when, as here. the entries do not have individual articles. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 20:57, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
All other points aside, I agree that there's no reason to treat a bibliography different than a discography. postdlf (talk) 22:05, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
The reason we allow covers in articles on individual books and albums is that because 1) the work is sufficiently notable to have an article and ergo it will have commentary on the work itself and 2) the cover then carries implicit marketing and branding of the item in question as to allow it to meet NFCC#8. #1 never exists in the case of a bibliography or discography and thus there's no way NFCC#8 is going to be met. --MASEM (t) 23:48, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
I thought the main rationale for not using non-free images in discographies and the like was that we didn't reuse such images when a link to an article that already uses them is present. That wouldn't apply to entries that lacked separate articles. The identification value is the same in such list entries, and in many instances the entries may be no less lengthy or substantive than a standlone book or album stub/beginning article would be. postdlf (talk) 18:24, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
  • So the idea is that if something is mentioned it's ok to use a non-free image of it, so long as the one place where it is used is either an article on it or if an article doesn't exist a list that lists the thing? --Hammersoft (talk) 18:36, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
  • I apologize for responding in haste without reading anything you said or taking the opportunity to comprehend. Anyway, my point is I'm trying to elicit from you what your stance in. You've, to date, been evasive about that. It would appear to me from your posts so far that if (a) there is no article on the subject and (b) the subject is referenced in a -ography, that it is ok to include a non-free image of it on the -ography. You're now saying this is incorrect. Ok, so what is your stance? --Hammersoft (talk) 18:45, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
  • I'm trying to develop one, actually. I made three main points: 1) the prohibition on using nonfree images where an article is linked that uses the image doesn't apply to entries in -ographies that lack separate articles; 2) the identification value of cover art is the same in -ographies as in separate articles for those listed works; 3) -ography entries can be just as substantial as standalone articles on the kind of work listed. My only conclusion, if those points are sound, is that there should at least not be a complete prohibition on nonfree cover art for identification in -ographies of items that lack separate articles. The third point might be the rub, however; if it's substantial enough for a standalone article, then why wouldn't it be split off into one? I don't think anything in Terence Reese bibliography qualifies, for example. postdlf (talk) 19:00, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
  • (the rub) Yeah, that's been a point of contention before. Where it's become most problematic is when people vote to merge a series of articles into one list or -ography type article, and include the images. I think, as you do (correct me if I'm wrong), that if a section of an article where that section covers a specific sub-entity of the article is substantial enough, and well sourced enough to support an article, it should. Period. If that's the case, then no argument sustains to include the non-free image that depicts it until the stand alone article exists. Thoughts? --Hammersoft (talk) 19:05, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
  • If you are just iterating elements in a list and providing nothing more than primary data about them (say, for a discography, the year, songlist, producer, recording studio, etc.) and that's all you can say about that element because of the lack of secondary information, then there is no allowance for a cover because we would never allow that album as an article in a first place. The use of cover art is intrinsically tied to notability of a work due to the fact that it presumes that part of the creation, marketing, and reception of the work is carried by the branging and marking of the cover. No chance of an article == no chance of a cover image. Of course, the other bound is that when we do have articles on these elements, the cover art can be found there and there's no need to use it in the list. This situation avoids any problems with the possible mix match of notable and non-notable elements in the same list whereby, where we could justify the covers for notable ones, the non-notables would be denied this - instead, we just don't allow any. --MASEM (t) 22:29, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

100 Years

I just removed 100 Years...100 Movies from the examples of what not to do, since a discussion on the article's talk page established that AFI considers these lists public domain, merely requiring proper credit. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:53, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Police Service of Northern Ireland

Police Service of Northern Ireland has two nearly identical Non-free files in it's info-box, one (File:Img psnibadge.png) without a FUR for the page ? My question is : Other than the FUR is it appropriate for the article to have the two files ? Mtking 09:26, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Looks like the top one is the Police Service badge, and the bottom one is the Police Service flag, which (lo and behold) consists of nothing more than the badge on a field of green, so basically two copies of the same thing. I would think it would be sufficient to just use the flag, and note in the image caption that the flag bears the image of the badge. When you discussed it with the article's editors, what did they say? postdlf (talk) 15:02, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
I wanted advice here as to what was the correct course of action before doing anything. Mtking 22:18, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Is a cast photo replaceable by a composite image of free actors' images?

I found File:Parks and recreation season 3 cast.jpg on the list of orphaned fair use images and I added it back to the article of Characters of Parks and Recreation replacing the new image of File:Parks and Recreation characters.jpg. There is a discussion at Talk:Characters of Parks and Recreation#Image where I feel it has not been explained how a cast image is replaceable by one image that is a combination of free pictures of the actors given that numerous character lists use the cast photos and WP:NFLISTS suggests using them as opposed to individual images. Also, if this image was replaceable, three of the nine cast members do not have free images, so would the combination image be a replacement when some of the elements are not represented in the new image? I would appreciate anyone's opinions about these images either here or there. Aspects (talk) 21:41, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Featured article review/History of merit badges (Boy Scouts of America)/archive1

Input at the discussion here would be appreciated. J Milburn (talk) 01:01, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

In the Bedroom

Regarding Unacceptable use → text, I was wondering whether the exclusive usage of copyrighted quotations in the Critical reception section of In the Bedroom constitutes "Excessively long copyrighted excerpts"?

Also, shouldn't this particular problem (using copyrighted quotations in place of a self-written summary) also be covered in this guideline? --87.79.215.15 (talk) 05:56, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Arguably no, the 2-3 sentences of each review are not copyright issues and likely would fall under fair use, so that text is "acceptable". That said, in reception sections for works, we generally don't just toss quotes up there like that, but distill down to salient phrases and wrap around it. They can be fixed, but only from a style issue, not a copyright one. --MASEM (t) 06:13, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
Ok, thanks. The reason I asked is mostly because claiming "fair use" is normally justified only when there is no free(-er(-ish)) alternative, such as, in this case, distilling and summarizing. --87.79.215.15 (talk) 06:18, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Television episode screenshots in infoboxes (WP:NFCI#5 in general)

I am going to drop a message in the TV WikiProject after I write this to get their attention to this matter as well.

First, I will preface this that in infoboxes on published works like movies, books, TV shows and seasons, video games, and albums, that we allow for one non-free image of the cover to be used per WP:NFCI#1. While I personally don't necessarily agree to this, the reasoning from a recent RFC is that the cover image implicitly conveys marketing and branding from the publisher/distributor/creator that is appropriate when the work itself is notable and discussed (beyond its primary content) in depth.

However, given this, I do not say the same "free pass" of one non-free content screenshot applies to TV shows, which is somewhat belied by how WP:NFCI#5 is written. The issues are:

  • If we have a notable episode article for a TV show, it is more than likely that we have several other articles on the show itself, and in those, representations of the major characters, plot devices, and settings will have been shown. We do not need these to be replicated for every episode if there's no unusual elements.
  • The selection of which screenshot to use (assuming there's no specific discussion of any scene, element, or the like in the text body) is original research. Unlike the marketing and branding argument for cover art, this is not something that the screenshot implicitly carries, and because it is determined by editors, we have no assurances that there is any implicit meaning to the use.

This is not saying that we never use screenshots in episode articles. If an episode has a well-documented scene that is backed by, say, critical reaction to it or information behind its development, then that can serve as the infobox image. (I point to two well-established cases, from The Stolen Earth and Over There (Fringe) - where review of the image use at FAC is strengthened by in-article discussions of the various scenes). This is a fairly standard practice demonstrated at FAC and through FFD arguments - the more there is in the article to talk about the screenshot outside of plot elements themselves, the more likely no one will argue for its removal/deletion.

But this - the existing of sourced discussion of an appropriate scene - is not always sufficient to allow for an article. Perhaps a scene in a sitcom is determined to have the funniest joke of all time stated by several RS reviews, but all done via wordplay as opposed to visual setting. A still image of this scene is going to be of no encyclopedic value relative to non-free content.

So, my point is this: WP:NFCI#5 is misleading, or at least does not properly quantity that we don't allow screenshots for every single episode article for infobox use. Or, to be clearer, while NFCI#1 allows for the cover art to be used for identification, NFCI#5 should be clear that television screenshots cannot be used simply for identification of episode articles within infoboxes; there must be critical commentary to support their inclusion. Note that this doesn't apply to character articles or other larger aspects of the work; if a character is notable to have an article, we'll likely be using a a screenshot from the work to show that character if no official media exists.

Please note: I am not encouraging any sort of mass purge of existing TV episode screenshots, only that editors and projects should take up cleanup of these at their own time; that such images should be more scrutinized at GAC/FAC since they are not given the same wholesale allowances as cover art; and that for new episode articles, editors should not be rushing off to add a screenshot, but should wait and see if the fleshed-out article can support the use of a screenshot. --MASEM (t) 17:42, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

To add, the TV Wikiproject does include this statement in their guidelines: For episode articles, a screenshot may only be used if it meets the Non-free content criteria, i.e. typically if it is required to illustrate a crucial element of the episode that is the object of explicit, sourced analytical commentary and where that commentary is in need of visual support to be understood. There is no blanket allowance for an image per episode. I've been seeing people believe the opposite, and I think we need to make this clearer on WP:NFC. --MASEM (t) 17:49, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
  • I agree. There is a distinct difference between the cover of an item and the contents of an item. We wouldn't include particular page from a book for an infobox; we'd use the cover. That in mind, I would not want to see a situation where every episode that didn't have a notable screenshot instead had the non-free title card. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:30, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Yea, that would be the same thing. Title cards are nearly non-existent in today's day and age and when they are used, they are rarely of interest, shown over a common background. --MASEM (t) 20:32, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
  • I've been mulling this since the most recent round at WT:DW. Looking at NFCI points 1 and 5 and the the RFC re covers I'm having more and more trouble with the idea of an image in the infobox for television episodes. I can see having an image in the section where it is critically commented on, but not up at the top when that commentary is routinely after the plot section and doesn't point back to the image.
    I also understand not calling for a mass purge. The image in use with a valid reason, or that can be shown to have a valid reason, should be given a chance to be migrated into the body of articles. But at some point the image field in the episode infobox templates needs a close look and likely removal.
    - J Greb (talk) 00:16, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
  • If it is a scene of significant discussion or commentary in the article, there is likely a good chance it is also a highly unique representative scene for that episode, a defacto iconic scene that we hope would be tied with that episode, and that should make it appropriate for the infobox. This is not to say that if you have an appropriate NFC shot it must be displayed in the infobox - its the most convenient but if you feel it is better served in the body, go right ahead, that should not be opposed. --MASEM (t) 00:26, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

User:Jsa2011

I came across this page when looking at new uploads, it looks like it is a user space draft, but it does contain a lot of Non-Free files, can someone advise what to do ?Mtking 05:00, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

I put the images in hidden notes until the page goes out of the userspace. User:Zscout370 05:05, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

"Fair use" images

Obviously, fair use images, like File:Gulzarilal Nanda.jpg, are not fair to use in all places in Misplaced Pages. These should be replaced by free to use images or deleted anyway. You shouldn't have to consider whether a picture is free or not - if it is on Misplaced Pages, it should be free to use everywhere on Misplaced Pages. Not Really Great (talk) 03:39, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Fair use is a specific legal concept and whether or not use of an image is legitimately "fair use" depends on the context of its use. So just because it may be appropriate to use an image under a claim of fair use in one context (eg, an article about the person) does not mean that it is appropriate to use it in all possible contexts. --B (talk) 04:04, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
Exactly, and that's why they shouldn't be used at all on Misplaced Pages. Not Really Great (talk) 04:16, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
Yes, then we could have a content-💕. Keep in mind that the only alternative in Misplaced Pages is to release the work for unlimited commercial use by an unlimited number of people and businesses. North8000 (talk) 12:51, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
@North8000: 'Yes, then we could have a content-💕.' - a non-free-💕 is not a content 💕. I agree that without any non-free media quite some useful data would be lost, and quite a bit of the non-free media is needed for the understanding of the article it is displayed on, but do note that a lot of the non-free material, even that which is rightfully used under fair-use, is not absolutely necessary for the understanding of the subject. In a lot of cases, an article would not become less useful when the non-free material would be removed, that is just a subset of the articles that use non-free media. And that is the reason why we can not do without non-free media, but it is also not a free pass to use it wherever one sees fit. --Dirk Beetstra 13:07, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
"Necessary" is a much higher bar than "enhances the article." And by "free" do you mean that the encyclopedia is free, or that anybody can take anything that is in it (such as somebody's work that is pictured in an image) and make unlimited commercial, for-profit use out of it? We've created a monster inside of WP in order to serve the latter. Something has jumped the tracks. North8000 (talk) 13:50, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Misplaced Pages was created to serve the latter. The 'monster' you speak of that has jumped the tracks is the very reason we exist. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:52, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Yes, WP is designed to allow anyone to do anything with the work as long as it is attributed back to WP. That's what the free content mission is. If you don't like the idea of someone taking your work and making money off WP, don't contribute to it. --MASEM (t) 13:57, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
(ec, @North8000) Yes, I know that "necessary" is a much higher bar than "enhances the article". We use a lot of non-free material which enhances the articles, and that is in a way fine, when it is fair-use. What I do argue is, that you can remove a lot of non-free material from Misplaced Pages for which the use is just enhancing the encyclopedia, and leave it at just the non-free material which is necessary for the understanding. That part of the removal would by no means be detrimental to this encyclopedia, Misplaced Pages would become less appealing, but it would not be less useful (remember, those are the images that are just enhancing an article, like a logo or a film-poster, in most cases they do not aid in understanding the company or understanding the movie). Taking out the rest indeed would be degrading Misplaced Pages. And I think that a lot of non-free material could be removed (and I am not arguing that we should!) that is just there to enhance Misplaced Pages.
The free that I am talking about is in terms of 'an encyclopedia which does not contain non-free material' and 'an encyclopedia that does not contain content', not about 'the encyclopedia is free', or 'that anybody can take anything that is in it ... and make unlimited commercial, for-profit use of it'. --Dirk Beetstra 14:28, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Without fair use, we also would be unable to use quotations longer than a brief sentence, or to summarize copyrighted works of fiction beyond an extremely abstract plot summary. Images are far from the only non-free content on Misplaced Pages, and images are far less problematic to filter out than article text that depends upon fair use. postdlf (talk) 14:05, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Good point, Postdlf. The only reasonable minimum is the amount which can be used under a fair-use claim, and which is necessary for understanding. Adding material which enhances and which is fair-use is fine (though it is not a minimum anymore) .. the rest needs to go. --Dirk Beetstra 14:28, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
Silly me, I thought the mission was to create an encyclopedia. North8000 (talk) 15:03, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
Isn't that what we are doing? --Dirk Beetstra 15:06, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
I guess not. We are basically saying to degrade the encyclopedia in order to make it a better system to deliver images for unlimited commercial use by others.
To be clear, with 'the rest needs to go' I mean material which is non-free and which is not fair-use. --Dirk Beetstra 15:08, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
  • If the bar were only what is useful to an article, then we would be as burdened with non-free content as things like the Memory Alpha project. The sheer quantity of non-free content on that site dwarfs even Paramount's. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:10, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
Responding to Dirk's "Isn't that what we are doing?" question, my answer is, I guess not. We are basically saying to degrade the encyclopedia in order to make it a better system to deliver images for unlimited commercial use by others. North8000 (talk) 15:37, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
Where are we degrading the encyclopedia, North8000? What part of my statements is suggesting that? --Dirk Beetstra 15:43, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
  • North correct me if I'm wrong, but Dirk I believe he's saying if an image is useful it should be here, and removing anything useful is degrading the encyclopedia. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:53, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
That would be great. To get there, start by deleting #1 and #8 from the 10 conditions. And stop the "enforcer squad" folks from making up additional rules that are not even in this policy. North8000 (talk) 16:57, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
We can't do that. The Foundation requires us this: "Any content used under an EDP must be replaced with a freely licensed work whenever one is available which will serve the same educational purpose." Thus, if we judge that an image can be removed and replaced (if needed) by text, and still serve the same educational purposes, we need to take those steps. NFCC#1 and #8 are direct extensions of this. --MASEM (t) 17:08, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
IMHO, #1 and #8 as worded, go beyond that. North8000 (talk) 17:12, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Your stance isn't unique. The interesting thing though is that historically the Foundation's resolution on licensing policy descends from en.wikipedia's NFCC policy. We are the model they want all the projects to follow, if they're going to use non-free content. If you want it changed, you're going to have to convince the Foundation to change their licensing policy to allow for more liberal use of non-free content. As is, their Foundation:Resolution:Licensing policy is pretty clear on the subject. What you want is impossible under their directives. Sorry. --Hammersoft (talk) 21:23, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
If I am correct, your last sentence isn't true. Change could occur by merely dialing back #1 and #8 to bring them into alignment with the foundation statement which you quoted. I could elaborate if interested. North8000 (talk) 21:56, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Thanks, no, your elaboration would be far off the mark. The resolution is very clear on the subject. WP:NFCC #1 is directly based off of #3 of the resolution, where it says "An EDP may not allow material where we can reasonably expect someone to upload a freely licensed file for the same purpose". WP:NFCC #8 tracks from #4 of the resolution, where it says "They must be used only in the context of other freely licensed content" and #3 "or to complement (within narrow limits) ". It's all pretty clearly laid out. But, regardless, if you want to get #1 and #8 "dialed back", you're certainly welcome to make such a proposal, carefully wording exactly what you mean, and turn that into an RFC here. I guarantee you, without a shadow of doubt, it will fail. Nevertheless, the discussion might prove educational. --Hammersoft (talk) 22:11, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
What triggered the start of this conversation, was that I had put the linked image in the list of Prime Ministers of India. Someone thought that was not fair use, and removed it. I think this is fair use, but more important is, you shouldn't have to consider things like that within Misplaced Pages. If a picture is in use in one place in Misplaced Pages, it should be equally free to use in another place in Misplaced Pages. The discussion shouldn't have to arise along lines "yes, we have this picture there, but no, you can't put it there too". Practical purposes. Not Really Great (talk) 08:00, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
No, that doesn't work that way. Another element of the Foundation's resolution is "minimal use" of non-free works. That means not only using the minimal number of unique non-free images, but using those a minimum number of times, and hence only on articles directly about the subject of the non-free image where there is commentary about that subject (as a general rule). So yes, we actually do have requirements that amount to what you are saying. --MASEM (t) 10:04, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
Hammersoft, you are discussing the portions of #1/#8 that are within the resolution....that really does not respond to what I was commenting on (which is that #1 and #8 reach beyond the resolution). Not that you needed to respond to it, but just saying..... I think that an RFC to bring the wording of #1 and #8 in line with the resolution would be a good idea, but I'm not ready to start one myself at the moment. I think that the balance has shifted too far and that that would the nuts and bolts of a way to help bring it back to center. North8000 (talk) 13:13, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
You don't understand: our NFCC policy was written before the Resolution was passed and was used as an example of an EDP. The Resolution sets a minimum baseline, but projects are free to put more requirements on non-free use (in fact, some disallow non-free completely). #1 and #8 have not changed wording to any great degree in the last 4 years, and there's no impedius to change these any more save for those that simply want to use more non-free against long-established policy and the Foundation's requirements. --MASEM (t) 13:26, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
Then you are admitting that the wording of these goes beyond foundation policy. So, statements to the effect that everything in the NFCC rules merely implements what is required by foundation policy are incorrect statements. North8000 (talk) 16:19, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Since you are so certain about the veracity of your stance, I'm quite certain you'll be very capable of putting together the wording you think should be present in #1 and #8. As above, I encourage you to do so. If you require assistance in how to put together the RfC to see this passed, please let me know. I'd be happy to help. As is, this thread isn't going to result in any policy changing. --Hammersoft (talk) 23:12, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
I was working on something smaller at the moment. That is just getting it clear that statements to the effect of "Don't question anything about NFCC, because everything in it just implements foundation policy" are false. And so people should not say such things. North8000 (talk) 23:41, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
  • I would remind you that you are categorically wrong on a number of points regarding this issue. I'm saying this to bring home the fact that if you are going to have any chance of effecting the change you want to effect, you're going to have to have a masterful hand in crafting the proposal. Anything short of that has zero chance. --Hammersoft (talk) 00:00, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
My narrow little point was directly derived from what you said. I don't have a broader point or proposal. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 00:22, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Well the immediate narrow change is for all to stop saying that these guidelines merely implement foundation policy, because that is not correct. I really didn't go beyond that. But if I did, my suggestion would be to trim the items out of #1 and #8 that overreach foundation policy. For example, one of the sentences in #1 essentially sets a criteria that it must be impossible to cover it by text. North8000 (talk) 16:16, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

  • It is correct. There isn't anything in #1 and #8 that oversteps Foundation policy, as has been demonstrated for you. If you disagree with that, an RfC to remove the objectionable elements from #1 and #8 is the route to go. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:59, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

This almost seems too basic to argue....you are basically asserting that there is a foundation policy that says that one condition for use of a NF image is that it be impossible to replace it by text.

IMHO I made my tiny point and am not prepared to put forth anything big. Best I sign off on this thread. Peace. Sincerley, North8000 (talk) 20:14, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Donkey Kong (video game)

Hi, advice would be welcome. This featured article has no new fewer than five fair-use claims, three of them from the actual game. I'm struggling to see how NFCC 3a and 8 are satisfied, particularly those captioned "The main protagonist, Jumpman, traverses the stage to rescue Pauline." and "At the game's end, Jumpman and the Lady are reunited." Thanks. Tony (talk) 07:57, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

The first one is a gameplay example. The second image illustrates being "the earliest video game with a storyline that visually unfolded on screen". They need better captions. --Enric Naval (talk) 10:52, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
Given its FAC was in 2006, yea, the images need revisiting (WP wasn't as good about it then as we are now). I think it can warrant 2 - the first screenshot, and possibly the box cover, but I would think about replacing it with the cover of the pamplet with the hand-drawn characters. --MASEM (t) 11:58, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
I think the second screenshot is pretty important too (much more useful than the cover), you see standard gameplay in the first one and then the game's object in the second one. The third one just seems gratuituous, but maybe there's an informational value I'm not seeing. The pamphlet is probably more informative than the box cover here, but i would say neither may not be needed when the screenshots clearly identify the game. It's much more useful to the article to show the character design inside the game, given that the subject is a game, than to show an artist's illustrative conception of the characters. I have the same problem with images in many of the comic book articles; too many editors have preferences for these overly-refined promotional images that don't actually show the characters in action as they appear in the books, and a single comics panel represents far less use of the actual work than those poster images. postdlf (talk) 14:21, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
I removed the third screenshot, which shows the instructions from the table-top arcade version. It's not only uninformative in relation to the article content, but a picture of instructions is certainly replaceable by a free text summary, and there's in any event nothing added by the graphics accompanying the instructions even if the instructions needed to be quoted verbatim for some reason. postdlf (talk) 17:03, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

A comment on this policy

This policy has a well intentioned core. Its current verbiage and enforcement is sufficiently radical to suggest that an encyclopedia that embraces its natural fair use rights could be superior. Enforcement of this policy is likely to degrade moral and lead users to other venues. --Alecmconroy (talk) 15:28, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

This is a free content work, supported by the Foundation and thus set by their rules (Which are stricter than fair use). If editors can't work within that, they are certainly free to start their own project with liberal fair use allowances. --MASEM (t) 15:37, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
Yeah. I think the point to stress is that this policy is deliberately far stricter than the law- just because we can use images, doesn't mean that should. J Milburn (talk) 15:48, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
The foundation's last statement on this was 2007... but things are noticeably getting worse with the copyright paranoia. Our policy hasn't changed, our 'liberal reading' and 'intense zeal' are.
If you don't want WP to the best, but merely "the free-est", keep at it. When you've intentionally surrendered your natural rights, you will also surrender your readers who will find a better source.
Legal is legal. If you want to be a law and judge unto yourselves applying your own idiosyncratic standards, you just degrade the project. If your take a legal article and make it worse, you have made the project worse. STOP and remember the point is to make the best encyclopedia the law allows. --Alecmconroy (talk) 03:05, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
No, you have it very wrong. The Foundation's resolution is specifically stronger that US Fair Use law, because they want a free work that can be redistributed by anyone in the world. That's their choice, we're following it with our NFC policy. If you want to use the legal limit of fair use, you need to either start your own project or convince the Foundation to relax their stance. --MASEM (t) 03:18, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
Quit "Love it or Leave it". You're in the wrong place for that line, try America.
The Foundation decides legality, not consensus. If it's illegal, fine. When it fits the 2007 criteria, it's both legal and usable and people who don't like it need to form consensus over images like the rest of us, not delete their way out of it.
What we have here is collection of self-appointed crusader imposing their own rules, more stringent than either the US or the foundation requires. WP isn't for that crusade, sorry.
Consensus is a pillar. Consensus is non-negotiable. The jihad rally cry being used, "unnecessary, low quality" is NOT a pillar of our group, it's not even a policy, it's not even a guideline. IF you want to get rid of census and replace it with jihad, start your own foundation. OUR foundation is run by consensus. --Alecmconroy (talk) 04:23, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
No, the Foundation doesn't decide legality - that's the US Gov't job. That legal line is US Fair Use law.
The Foundation has specifically set the line for every Wikimedia project to be more restrictive than US Fair Use law. It doesn't matter if they wrote that in 2007, it is still a standing document that we have to work under. Since that document does not allow the use of images to the extend that US Fair Use allows, there's no way we can have consensus change that. --MASEM (t) 04:33, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
Here's the order: US law is less strict than the foundation directive which itself is far far less strict the than BS a few people dreamt up on this page which they are now calling "Foundation Policy" suddenly in the past month. --Alecmconroy (talk) 04:44, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I think the pragmatic reasons underlying non-free content policy often get overlooked in favor of abstract rhetoric, whether the line is "anything we can get away with" or "more free". And lecturing about the Foundation's dictated doesn't accomplish very much either, because again, it's too abstract and the specifics are always decided here on the ground, and for a volunteer project it's rather odd to be invoking higher authority in this manner, as if we do everything by divine command or have law enforcement authority.

It makes sense to limit non-free content usage below that which the law allows for (at least) two basic reasons: 1) prophylactic--the legality of a particular fair use claim is often unclear, even to those few of us who are lawyers, so it's a good idea to have some buffer space between what we do and what more we think we could do legally; and 2) motivational--the use of non-free content where free content could be created or located may discourage some from bothering to create it or locate it. Those very real and concrete concerns should guide our interpretations of non-free content policy here.

That said, I understand your frustration. I think it's a fair criticism that there are "crusader" types who value removing as much non-free content they can, sometimes with little regard for (or often little understanding for) the informational value of particular images, but the community as a whole has ultimately proven responsive to those problems. One problem editor just got banned from removing non-free content because he was unable to do so constructively; a very wise statement in the decision was that it is wrong to focus on "enforcing" any one of the five pillars of Misplaced Pages to the detriment of the others. Everyone should take care not to be dismissive of others interpretations, or to misjudge their opinion as "the law" instead of just their interpretive application of it. And ultimately I think the best way to support the free content mission on Misplaced Pages is to create more free content. postdlf (talk) 05:08, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Meat dress of Lady Gaga

Hi there, would it be possible to get some opinions on whether the above file meets the NFC criteria or not? It is currently used in the infobox at Meat dress of Lady Gaga. Thanks, Miyagawa (talk) 22:50, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

There is commentary about the dress in the article and it would be hard to comment about the dress without seeing it. However, the event that it was taken at was the VMAs from just last year, so the ability to find a free photo is very high. User:Zscout370 22:57, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
Is this one acceptable? —Kusma (t·c) 07:55, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
You would not believe the time spent on Flickr hoping someone had just typoed meat dress into something else. Never thought to search in Spanish. I'll get that image uploaded on commons once I get home from work and swap out the image. Extreme levels of thanks, Miyagawa (talk) 11:33, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
and what a terrific photograph, too. If only all non-free content "controversies" could be resolved so constructively. postdlf (talk) 11:57, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
Not resolved I went and tried to upload the image at commons, but apparently this " americanistadechiapas" flickr account is blacklisted on Mediawiki due to faking works as their own. Ergo, this is unusable. We're back at the issue if there's a free replacement. The dress is on display at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame but photography is not allowed so we cannot assure a free image the nominal way. I would therefore say, yes, the original image is an acceptable non-free image to use on the Meat Dress page (its notable & critically commented on by itself, and words alone do it little justice for the spectacle that it is), but not at anywhere else. --MASEM (t) 17:53, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
Given this is a good hypothetical case (completely nullified by the free image find, and even likely moreso that IIRC the dress is preserved and enshrined at the R&R HoF), I assume that this would be a case that we would have allowed the NFC image of the dress for discussion of the dress on the article about the dress (but not on Lady Gaga's page), despite the fact it is a picture of a living person. --MASEM (t) 17:42, 1 August 2011 (UTC)