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I want to ask if its possible to add another section to this article talking about some info i recently read about stating the skeletons weren't Azeris but Armenians. How when they found the mass grave they automatically figured it out that those skeletons belonged to Azeris and they had been killed by Armenians, how foreign experts never studied the skeletons, how there is actually no records of Armenians killing Azeris in Guba but there are records of a few hundred Armenians being transfered there in 1918. Korganov stated in a telegram "В конце апреля 1918г. комиссар города и области Губа Геловани направил председателю Военно-революционного комитета Корганову телеграмму следующего содержания: "Сегодня, 24 апреля, я освободил 115 армян, которые были заключены в губинской тюрьме. Они все лишились своего имущества. Я предпринял меры для возврата их собственности. Они просят денежной помощи от Армянского национального совета. Как можно скорее вышлите на мой адрес. Материальное состояние критическое… кроме города Губа в других местах тоже есть плененные армяне. Предпринимаю меры для их освобождения".
here is a section that talks about the supposed Stepan Shahumyan letter: Позабыв об обещании представить общественности результаты анализа почвы и привлечь зарубежных специалистов, Агаев выступил с очередным ошеломляющим заявлением. По его словам, делать выводы о том, чти именно армяне стоят за убийством захороненных в Губе останков, "позволяют как исторические факты, так и результаты исследования найденных в захоронении черепов". И конкретизировал: "Среди архивных материалов есть письмо Степана Шаумяна Амазаспу. В нем отмечается, что "основной целью вашего прибытия в Азербайджан является распространение большевизма. Но это – второй вопрос. Основной же ваш долг – уничтожение местных турок. Это – национальный долг". Еще смешнее: Г.Агаев утверждает, что "исследования показали, что резня произошла с 3 по 10 мая…" (воистину научное достижение, оказавшееся под силу только азербайджанским ученым). И далее: "Результаты исследования черепов, найденных в захоронении, также свидетельствуют о том, что геноцид произошел 90 лет назад, Люди, чьи тела мы обнаружили, были убиты в других местах и захоронены здесь…В ходе исследований выяснилось, что эти люди были раздеты и зверски убиты с использованием острых предметов… а на некоторых скелетах черепа оторваны от туловища".
Отметим, что загадочное и скорее всего несуществующее письмо Шаумяна до сих пор не было опубликовано ни в одном азербайджанском сборнике архивных документов.
so can a section be added to talk about these or not? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ninetoyadome (talk • contribs) 03:16, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
- You might want to start by translating all that. Whatever new information is to be added, needs a reference. Good luck. Boneyard90 (talk) 03:43, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
Here is a google translate of the above post: "In late April 1918. Commissioner of the city and region Guba Gelovani to the Chairman of the Military Revolutionary Committee Korganova telegram read:" Today, 24 April, I delivered 115 of the Armenians who were imprisoned in Guba prison. They all lost their property. I made arrangements to return their property. They ask for monetary help from the Armenian National Council. As soon as possible send to my mail. Material condition of critical ... but Guba city in other places, too, is captured by Armenians. Taking steps to secure their release. " here is a section that talks about the supposed Stepan Shahumyan letter: Forgetting the promise to provide the public an analysis of the soil and to attract foreign experts, Agayev spoke with another stunning statement. According to him, to draw conclusions about, honor just behind the murder of Armenians in Guba buried the remains, "how can the historical facts and findings found in the burial of skulls." And elaborated: "Among the archives is a letter of Stepan Shahumyan Hamazasp. It notes that" the main purpose of your arrival in Azerbaijan is the spread of Bolshevism. But this - the second question. The basic is your duty - the destruction of the local Turks. This - the national debt. "Even funnier: G. Aghayev claims that" studies have shown that the massacre took place from 3 to 10 May ... "(a truly scientific achievement, which proved only by Azerbaijani scientist). And further:" The study of skulls, found in the grave, also show that the genocide took place 90 years ago, people whose bodies we found were killed elsewhere and dumped there ... The study found that these men were stripped and brutally killed with sharp objects ... and on some skeletons skull torn from his body. "
Note that a mysterious and probably non-existent letter Shaumian still not been published in any collection of archival documents Azerbaijan.Ninetoyadome (talk) 19:21, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
Ninetoyadome makes a pretty good point. The fact that Azerbaijani authorities naturally assumed that these skeletons were those belonging to Azerbaijanis is somewhat reminiscent of how every now and then authorities in Turkey claim that the skeletons unearthed in the cities in the eastern provinces belong to those of Turks, and not the Armenians who were massacred there in 1915. No forensic evidence is carried out and it's obvious that such proclamations are political in nature. The same seems to apply to this article, which is sourced by Azerbaijani newspapers that are so propagandistic in tone and letter that their claims are almost certainly questionable. Not a single third-party source is given and the reader is told to believe what sources closely oriented to the government want their audiences to believe, which was why I added the tag.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 18:30, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
Any information presented as "fact" in Misplaced Pages should be grounded on reliable sources. I wonder of there are any for this particular instance. -- Ashot 12:45, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
- Here's sources: , Victoria46 (talk) 07:06, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
- First source: where do you read about Armenians there?
- Second source: seems to be self-published (xlibris.com) and not in compliance with WP:RS. -- Ashot 08:33, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
- According to rules self-published material can be used in certain circumstances. If you like to make selections, we could be selective in all Armenian articles as well. Should we do it together? Victoria46 (talk) 12:14, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
- You can go to particular articles and raise questions there. I encourage you to do so as that is the correct thing to do when one notices something wrong. And if something is wrong somewhere, it still doesn't mean it should be replicated in other places too.
- As pertaining to this particular talkpage, you have to unveil those certain circumstances in order to be able to use that self-published source. -- Ashot 14:48, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
That was sort of a Question of irony. You come here demanding sources, which have been sufficiently supplied in the article by the way, but ignore the fact that half of Armenian articles base the text of articles on Armenian sources. If an editor of good faith, why don't you question those first and then come asking me that? The fact of the massacre is undeniable. A whole investigation commission produced results, foreign officials and journalists have visited the site and nobody has questioned what Armenian Dashnaks and Russian bolsheviks did here, but yet you are here questioning it :) how funny. Victoria46 (talk) 06:19, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
- The funny thing is that you fill the talkpage with useless text, but fail to answer my simple question about certain circumstances. Without good grounds the self-published source cannot be considered reliable. -- Ashot 06:48, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
- What good grounds?!! Go look at the main page to see the good grounds, pictures, information about commission. If a herd of terrorists massacred civilians and concealed the fact for decades and now the commission has performed analysis including DNA to find people of certain ethnicities in the grave, what other grounds are you looking for? I'll add more sources soon as I find them. Don't you worry. Victoria46 (talk) 11:42, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
Can you possibly tell us how exactly the Azerbaijani government determined that the remains belonged to those of Azerbaijanis and Jews? Was any forensic evidence carried out or did it automatically assume that since there was a massive pile of bones then the only culprits could be Armenians? Like I wrote above, something smells fishy here, and this not only because of the fact that the Turkish government regularly does this in sites in eastern Turkey where Armenians were massacred wholesale. This article has no neutral sources to verify anything that has been coming out of Baku. For all we know, these could be the remains of massacred Armenians...--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 16:58, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
Obviously, this article needs to be totally rewritten.
I wonder if we have any reliable sources on the matter. -- Ashot 18:18, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
The problem is not much is known about what happened. The letter i posted above shows Armenians as the victims while no tests have been done on the skeletons. Azeris cant figure it out:1.) Outside of Azerbaijan, Azeris claim those remains are of Jews killed by Armenians, 2.) Inside Azerbaijan they say its Azeris killed by Armenians: "These documents prove us that the Jews of Cuba during these events are not affected. The events of March is our tragedy, and the use of lies in covering them is unacceptable," - he quotes the employee of ANAS, doctor of historical sciences, Solmaz Rustamov Togidi.
Here is the interesting thing, Azeris claim they did tests and this is what they found out: "Anthropological studies have confirmed that these people - the Muslims." Ninetoyadome (talk) 19:52, 12 August 2011 (UTC)