Misplaced Pages

Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Judaism/tab3 Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Judaism/tab3

Discussion Board

Discussions relating to Jews and Judaism. (edit) (back to top)

• WT:JEW

Archives

Index 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39

This page has archives. Sections older than 30 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III.

Request for input in discussion forum

Given the closely linked subjects of the various religion, mythology, and philosophy groups, it seems to me that we might benefit from having some sort of regular topical discussion forum to discuss the relevant content. I have put together the beginnings of an outline for such discussion at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Religion/2011 meeting, and would very much appreciate the input of any interested editors. I am thinking that it might run over two months, the first of which would be to bring forward and discuss the current state of the content, and the second for perhaps some more focused discussion on what, if any, specific efforts might be taken in the near future. Any and all input is more than welcome. John Carter (talk)

_{Automated message by Project Messenger Bot from John Carter at 15:44, 5 April 2011}

what counts as a current significant view about Yeshu?

The question is whether Yeshu refers to Jesus (either the Jesus who lived two thousand years ago and was crucified, or the figure in books held sacred by Christians). Most Christian scholars, and most Conservative Talmud scholars, believe that the word at least refers to the Christian concept of Jesus (if not the historical figure). But I am not sure whether Orthodox Jews share this view. I know that rabbis in disputations with Christian authorities (e.g. Nahmanides) argued that Yeshu and related characters *ben Pandera") do not refer to Jesus. I believe that Orthodox Jews today, or at least many orthodox Jews today, continue to hold this view.

But for me, this is the key point: Orthodox Jews can accept as authoritative interpretations of the Talmud from the Middle Ages. The fact that a commentary or some other text was written in the Middle Ages does not necessarily mean that it does not represent the views of people today. I think this is an important issue for Jewish editors at Misplaced Pages.

At the Yeshu article, I raised this issue on the talk page and I have been challenged by another editor who insists that I provide modern sources to support the view, that Rabbinic including medieval sources cannot be used to represent the views of Orthodox Jews today. This line of reasoning is being used to justify designating what I think are "significant" views as "fringe" or obsolete views.

Note: this same editor is using Ben Yehuda's dictionary as an authority on Hebrew in Rabbinic texts (from the Mishna to the Toledoth Yeshu) (I believe that Ben Yehuda was just creating a new Hebrew word to correspond to "Jesus" and other modern European languages names for the person identified, in Latin, as "Jesu") - and not making an argument about how to interpret the Talmud.

I hope you will consider addressing this, and perhaps you know of other editors who have the expertise that they can address this in an intelligent and well-informed way. Thanks, Slrubenstein | Talk 12:02, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

I have always understood that Yeshu'a Hanotzri (mentioned e.g. in the Rambam, Laws of kings, ch. 11) is Jesus of Nazareth. See also Yeshu#Yehoshua_Ha-Notzri. As to Yeshu, I don't know. Debresser (talk) 16:26, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

I too understand Yeshua HaNotzri to refer to Jesus; certainly Rambam is referring to the Christian deity. But this is not what I am asking about. I am asking about Yeshu, and only Yeshu. I am referring to the Toledoth Yeshu and also to some passages in the Talmud Bavli: Chullin 2:22-24, Avodah Zarah 16b-17a; Sanhedrin 43a; Sanhedrin 103a, Berakhot 17b; Sanhedrin 107b; Gittin 56b, 57a. At the Disputation of Tortosa in 1413-1414 important rabbis argued with leaders of the Church over whether or not these passages refer to Jesus. In 1264 Nachmanides participated in the Disputation of Barcelona during which his opponent claimed that the Talmud spoke of the Messaiah and Nachmanides argued that these were misrepresentations and misinterpretations of the Talmud. The question is whether Jews believe that these specific texts in the Bavli refer to Jesus. I have argued that Nachmanides and other Rishonim and other rabbis demonstrated that these passages of the Bavli are not about Jesus Christ. Another editor has said that this only means the Medieval Jews did not believe that these passages refer to Jesus Christ. I think that many Jews today accept the writings of Nachmanides and other rabbis from the 14th-15th centuries as authoritative. The question is whether we can cite Rishonim as reliable sources for what Jews believe. What Jews believe, stam. What Jews believed then, and now. Another editor says that these cannot be used as reliable sources for what Jews believe (today). Have I made myself clear, now, Debresser? Slrubenstein | Talk 18:14, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

It was clear from the beginning. Isn't there an opinion that Jewish medieval sages only said that Yeshu isn't Jesus so as not to get into trouble with the Roman-Catholic Church, but that in effect even they knew that it was about him? Debresser (talk) 21:15, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

What is your source? I came here to look for people who know more than I do, not less. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:12, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

First, may I say I agree strongly regarding sources from the Middle Ages. In the Halachic articles, it's normal to use such sources, as their acceptance by later authorities is close to guaranteed, while later sources are just individual opionions, not peer-reviewed as much as the earlier ones are. Regarding not using religious sources, the RS FAQ specifically allows traditional views.

I do not think it is difficult to find opinions in both directions, because the Sefer Toldot Yeshu has too much in common with the Christian story, and the long story in Sanhedrin is clearly a different period of history. Pappus (Joseph) ben Yehuda is definitely not the same time period as the other story, and may even be too late for the Christian story. (Traditional scholars such as the Tosafot did tend to discuss issues of time periods.)

I know you are aware of all this, so I will just mention that J.D. Eisentein, at the end of Otzar HaVikuchim, states that it is unclear to whom the Talmud is referring - although he does not believe the Christian Jesus to have existed at all, as per the scholarship of circa 1900.Mzk1 (talk) 21:13, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Also wanted to mention that even Christians in Israel use Yeshu (plain OR, just for background; best to check a popular Israeli dictionary). J.D. Eisenstein (1928) also uses it. BTW, I don't know who put it in the article, but isn't "holds" a Yiddishism?Mzk1 (talk) 21:18, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Just so everyone knows

I am going to resume my work on the membership list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Magister Scienta (talk • contribs) 01:01, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Should we be worried? :) Debresser (talk) 08:58, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

I have a certificate from the chief rabbi. I'm not worried. --Ravpapa (talk) 12:08, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

What does your work entail? Chesdovi (talk) 17:05, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

All I'll be doing is following the advice of Ynhockey and removing people who have been inactive on the project for a considerable time. Do I have the thumbs up? Magister Scienta 01:54, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Personally, I think this is a bad idea. It means kicking out all the lurkers. Lurkers do no harm, and are often good people to have around, because suddenly they chirp up when their help is most needed. --Ravpapa (talk) 05:40, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

But lurkers don't need to be on the membership list to watch talk pages etc, do they? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 06:45, 26 July 2011 (UTC) (a lurker)

Hey Magister Scientia, if you like housekeeping, one thing that is all wonky is Misplaced Pages:Judaism Collaboration of the Week - I was about to trumpet how folks here should reactivate it like the one at Misplaced Pages:U.S. Wikipedians' notice board/USCOTM which has this little nifty subpage at Misplaced Pages:U.S. Wikipedians' notice board/USCOTM/History to show what/how/when editors improved what, and also Misplaced Pages:U.S. Wikipedians' notice board/USCOTW nominations to show what some folks thought'd be a good idea to nominate but not enough others did. I mainly work on biology articles but am intrigued at having just reactivated Misplaced Pages:China-related topics notice board/ZHCOTM after a seven year hiatus (!) and am planning on working on Shanghai. If someone can make some sense of Misplaced Pages:Judaism Collaboration of the Week and make a history subpage, and maybe folks here might reactivate it. There are some editors here who have a few Good and Featured Articles under their belts. The US one has lurched along, but at least George Washington has achieved GA, which I think is a pretty good result. I can give some help along the way, hey Dweller, Jayjg, JFW (chuckle) Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:50, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Well that was a conversation killer, wasn't it? Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:12, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

I responded on Casliber's talk page. Magister Scienta (31 July 2011)

Zamir Cohen

This chap's biog is now one of our oldest BLPs not to have any references.

I couldn't work out if he was notable or not (and there's no link to any he: article, which makes me more suspicious), so was hoping you guys could help one way or the other - ie either prod, list at AfD or add a reference or two to get it out of the unreferenced BLPs pot.

Thanks --Dweller (talk) 13:29, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Hard to find a biography on Google (google:Zamir Cohen). Most of the links for his name point to videoed lectures and books. JFW | T@lk 16:07, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

He published a few books, which many people find interesting, as I have been able to witness a few times. I'd ask for patience before considering steps like Afd. Debresser (talk) 18:06, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Of course, patience is a virtue and we usually live by WP:NODEADLINE, but the unreferenced BLP project is motoring along and one of the other volunteers will get to it soon enough. --Dweller (talk) 09:48, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Just shows how crappy sitting on one's proverbial in front of google can be. As an example, most Featured Articles I work on require me to get material not accessible on the web. Many smaller more esoteric articles fall into this category too. Just saying....Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:35, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

The he: link that was added after I began this was the key. My Hebrew was good enough to be able to cite he exists, but I didn't really have the time/patience for much more... but at least (with one reference) the biog is now out of the way of the BLP juggernaut. --Dweller (talk) 11:49, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Can someone check this IP out for me?

Hi,

This character has gone around changing a couple of numbers. It looks suspicious to me and I've provisionally reverted but I think this is something a project member with knowledge of the material ought to look at.

Cheers,

Egg Centric 09:31, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

RfC at Yeshu

We could really use some thoughtful and well-informed comments here. Thanks. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:42, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Aish tamid

Every once in a while I find an article that elicits a "WTF is that?" response. Today's WTF award goes to Aish tamid. Joe407 (talk) 13:16, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

I'd suggest a merge to Korban tamid, only that's a surprising redlink. And I noticed the Korban article is pretty poor as well. --Dweller (talk) 13:21, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Yimakh Shemo

is up for deletion here. The article was created by conservative Catholic POV-pusher editor as a POV-fork from Yeshu. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:56, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

World peace

Could someone take a look at the Judaism section at World peace? There's an obtrusive Template:Unreferenced-section there and prose issues that require attention.—Biosketch (talk) 15:12, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

It's a mess. Worse, an unsourced mess. Debresser (talk) 18:59, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

A reference was added so I deleted the template, to be technical a refimprove or onesource template should be added though, Magister Scienta (4 August 2011)

Wikimania

The international Wikipeida conference is in Haifa, this week. Would it be out of place to mention that since I live there, I will be attending on Friday (the local week-end), and if anyone wants to say hello to put a note on my user-page?

I'm not violation the not-my-blog rule, am I?Mzk1 (talk) 21:34, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Rosh Hashanah

Per the rules at WP:OTD, Rosh Hashanah is going to be excluded from Misplaced Pages:Selected anniversaries/September 28 this year because it has serious maintenance issues. There are 8 weeks to go before this date, so please be sure to have those resolved by then. Thanks. howcheng {chat} 18:51, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Like what? Debresser (talk) 19:45, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

User talk:Howcheng#Rosh HaShanah -- Avi (talk) 21:22, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

I have simply thrown out these two sections. From their style it seems they have been added by the same editor. They contained information that was already available in better form in other paragraphs of the article. Debresser (talk) 22:41, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Indeed, the blocked User:Gilabrand. See e.g. this edit. Debresser (talk) 22:46, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Cool, that was easy. :) howcheng {chat} 04:11, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

• Per Debresser's comment, as of August 25, 2011, User Gilabrand (talk · contribs) will be unblocked, see User talk:Gilabrand#AE Block provisionally suspended. Thanks, IZAK (talk) 20:59, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

I am sure we will welcome his constructive contributions. Debresser (talk) 21:20, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

WikiProject Kabbalah

Hi, I was checking out the sister projects page and I realized that WikiProject Kabbalah is not there, I know the Project is largely inactive but it is has 240+ articles and is still somewhat maintained, I think it should be added to the sister projects page, comments? Magister Scienta (2 August 2011)

See Talk:Isaac_Luria#Split_needed that the article about the Arizal is actually most about Lurianic Kabbalah, and that it is too detailed. I have proposed a split and a re-write. I'd like to invest some time into that. Perhaps one of these days. Debresser (talk) 11:10, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

edit window for Hebrew transliteration?

I recently added Latin transliteration options for Arabic in the edit window. Would something like that be useful for Hebrew? Let me know on my talk page if yes. — kwami (talk) 03:39, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Can we translate from Hebrew Misplaced Pages without checking the references?

There are many extremely good Jewish-topic articles in the Hebrew Misplaced Pages. I asked a long time ago in one of the general pages (do not remember which at this point) whether a Hebrew article could be translated without rechecking sources, and was told that it could not, because the RS rules might be different.

I suspect the people here might have a better idea of the congruency of the two Wikipedias. Anyone? Are they congruent enough for direct transfer?Mzk1 (talk) 21:17, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

You might not want to spend a lot of time directly verifying the sources, but I'm sure that while the translation is being done, the suitability of each source could be judged. JFW | T@lk 22:16, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I saw no WP:RS in Hebrew. Wonder why that is. :) In any case, I tend to agree with Jfdwolff, that it should be easy to asses a source even without opening it, most of the time. E.g., if you see the Jerusalem Post as a source, you'll know that it is a respected newspaper, and accept the source, and need spend no time on verification of the source's reliability. Debresser (talk) 22:32, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

O.K., we will assume that the JP is a respected newspaper for the moment. :-) But you are saying that I would not have to actually check each source to see that it is what it porports to be (that the source actually says that), within English guidelines of interpreation of sources (i.e., don't!), as I would if I were copying from one English WP article to another? (Having seen plenty of distortions of the JE, there is good reason for the latter.)Mzk1 (talk) 22:28, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

I want to be clear that I am only speaking of new articles. I would not be really happy with copying from there into existing articles without checking. (I just looked at the beginning of "Chareidi". Not even an attempt to include the Chareidi POV.) This would be more like starting an article from a JE article.Mzk1 (talk) 22:28, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Another tendentious step from Chesdovi

Please see Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Palestinian rabbis. Perhaps it is time to open a Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/User conduct against Chesdovi (talk · contribs)? Debresser (talk) 16:07, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

New article: Palestinian rabbis

		Another interesting article for WikiProject Judaism!
		Palestinian rabbis documents the history of the illustrious rabbis of the Land of Israel from antiquity up to the modern period. An enthralling and recommended read. Keep up the good work everyone! Chesdovi (talk) 13:40, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Alternate to using crosses to reflect death for Jewish list

Perhaps someone can help out here ... I can't easily find the alternative to using a cross for this purpose, but recall that one exists. Thanks.--Epeefleche (talk) 18:50, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

done --Ravpapa (talk) 04:29, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Nomination of Ashkenazi intelligence for deletion

The article will be discussed at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Ashkenazi intelligence (5th nomination) until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article..

Speedily closed as a keep. Debresser (talk) 23:10, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

The AfD headers on that article's Talk page are a mess. Someone who knows how to fix them should attend to it.—Biosketch (talk) 09:28, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

When I came there just now, I found only one superfluous tag there, and removed it. Debresser (talk) 22:47, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Question on the usage of "Palestinian rabbi"

Do you think use of the term "Palestinian rabbi" is valid in articles of rabbis from Palestine, from antiquity till modern times? () Chesdovi (talk) 12:23, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

This question is in reference to Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Palestinian rabbis. Debresser (talk) 12:46, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Is it? It can still be used if the Afd ends in deletion. Chesdovi (talk) 12:57, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Please note that contrary to Debresser's claims, such rabbis were years ago categorised as Palestinian by Shilonite: Chaim_Hezekiah_Medini, Jacob_Berab, Hayyim_ben_Jacob_Abulafia, Joseph ben Ephraim Karo, Yom_Tov_Tzahalon, Chaim_Hirschensohn, Malkiel_Ashkenazi, Zundel_Salant, Abraham_Isaac_Kook, Menachem_Mendel_of_Vitebsk, etc, etc. It was also used in such pages as Moses Mescheloff, Elisha ben Abuyah, Midrash Tehillim, Hildesheim, High place. Chesdovi (talk) 15:52, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Okay, it seems no one has a problem or is interested in this, so I guess I've got my answer: It is valid. Now if anyone should revert my edits, they will be the one who will have to gain "consensus" to jusitfy their actions. Chesdovi (talk) 13:28, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

To the contrary. This only shows that there is noone in favor of using this term. Debresser (talk) 15:27, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Gentlemen, don't you think it's time for an RFC on this issue? It had dragged on quite a bit, and members of other WikiProjects may have particular perspective. I think it is not disputed that for large parts of its history, the current Israel was not known as such. It has been Canaan, Israel, Palestine, etc. Please either start with an RFC or find some other way out of the impasse. JFW | T@lk 15:56, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

• Note This issue was clearly vetted via consensus, during the AFD Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Palestinian rabbis. This is clear and simple. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 05:42, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Not at all! The closing comment of the Afd said "keep. discussion of potential rename can continue on article talk page", summarising the many sentiments there that something is wrong with this name.

Also, as I have mentioned several times already to Chesdovi, of late on WP:ANI, the existence of an article does not mean you can start linking it to all kinds of people. I gave the simple example of the fact that we have an article homosexual, which does not mean that we can go around and call whomever we please "homosexual". The term has to be factually correct, and its use has to conform to all relevant policies and guidelines.

And then there is the Rfc on the now deleted Category talk:16th-century Palestinian rabbis which showed great resistance to this term. And the category was in fact deleted, as were all similar categories, per a Cfd at Misplaced Pages:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2011_July_2#Category:16th-century_Palestinian_rabbis with a very sharp concluding commentary "I could not find one editor that took up the position that User:Chesdovi embraces". Debresser (talk) 07:35, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

This is your red herring, and you seem to be the only one hawking it. Good luck in the future. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 13:31, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

A majority of editors have stated that if there is a RS to call a rabbi Palestinian, the term can be used. As I told Debresser, if we had an article on Polish popes, there would be no reason why each and every Polish Pope could not be linked to that page. Chesdovi (talk) 14:52, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

This is not true, as I have quoted from the Rfc and Cfd and the Afd, and as can be seen by reviewing the majority of editors who have found this wording and the POV of the only editor pushing it problematic. Debresser (talk) 15:34, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

The majority of editors who have commented on this issue have in truth sided with me. The recent Afd only reinforces the notion that the term is neutral and acceptable by the majority and that the elusive "consensus" has finally been gained. Only a handful of POV editors who unfortunately loath to link the word “Palestinian” with anything Jewish are causing a fuss. People who care about authentic English language classifications have no doubt found solace in the most recent positive Afd result. That was due to the fact that instead of speedy deleting, (as you had initially proposed), a proper discussion ensued. This is contrary to the debacle you instigated with the categories you nominated for deletion without a community wide debate. Those manipulative moves ended in a stalemate Rfc and a unbalanced Cfd conclusion, which I respectfully consider to have been closed in an unsatisfactory manner. This is only the beginning. Chesdovi (talk) 16:33, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

As there seems to be only one or two editors, among many who oppose their views, this subject is pretty much closed. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 22:45, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Precisely. Thanks. Debresser (talk) 23:12, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Israel ben Moses Najara

Debresser removed “Palestine” from Israel ben Moses Najara claiming that “Gaza was then under Ottoman rule”: . Damascus was also under Ottoman rule in 1555, but Debresser has not removed Syria? Why? Further, Debresser removed Category:16th-century Palestinian rabbis: but left Category:Syrian rabbis. Can someone please explain what is going on with this experience editor. Thanks! Chesdovi (talk) 13:30, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Fixed. Thanks. Debresser (talk) 15:57, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Please explain why you were not as zealous in regard to the Syrian appearing in the category? Would the typical user not have been utterly confused that there could be such thing as a Syrian rabbi. I mean how can a rabbi be an ethnic Syrian, or live in "Jew-free" Syria? Chesdovi (talk) 16:26, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

I am quite offended at your demand I explain myself. I simply wasn't aware the Ottoman Empire was that large. I know more about Israeli history than I do about Syrian history. Seems logical to me. I hope you weren't thinking of any less flattery explanations? Debresser (talk) 16:56, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

I was hoping you would be willing to explain your position to me, instead of reporting me each time I use the “P” word. Alas, you are offended I ask. Back to the POD: If you simply did not know the geographical extent of the Ottoman Empire, I truly wonder whether your views on this historically centred debate are of any worth here. How can we trust your knowledge of Palestinian rabbis when you do not possess even the most basic understanding about the era in which we are discussing, viz. the Ottoman period in the Middle East? You claim to know so much about rabbis of Palestine during the Ottoman period, but not 50 miles away in Damascus. It is truly unbelievable. But that does not matter, as you did not explain why it would not be confusing to categorise Najara as a Syrian rabbi. Was he a Syrian Arab? According to you he was just Jewish. Chesdovi (talk) 17:12, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

The "P" word. That sounds very funny if you know Russian. Actually, you raise a good point. Let's exchange opinions about this. Intuitively I'd say that he wasn't Syrian, but he was Syrian-Jewish, meaning a Jew of the so-called Syrian community. You understand the distinction I make here between just Syrian and Syrian-Jewish, where the word Syrian is geographically referring to the region of origin, not to the country? What would you say to this point of view? Debresser (talk) 22:09, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Clarification requested

I have embarked on removing the word Syria from Syrian people who lived under the Ottoman Empire as directed by Debresser, when I relised that although Debresser removed Palestine from Najara, he added "Ottoman Palestine" to Issachar ben Mordecai ibn Susan. So I am not sure how to proceed. Do we remove Syria and Palestine from all articles of that era or not? Please clarify asap. Chesdovi (talk) 22:13, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Isaac Luria is called "Palestinian" in numerous RS. Why should this classification NOT be used?

Debresser removed “Palestinian rabbi” from Isaac Luria: claiming it is a “POV edit. He was Jewish, he was a kabbalist. He spent only a minority of his years in the Land of Israel”. Please can someone explain why a person who cannot be classified as a Palestinian Jewish kabbalist? The sources do:

• The greatest of the cabalists here was Isaac Luria 1534-1572, a native Palestinian of Italian-German origin., The Jew in the Medieval World, By Jacob R. Marcus, Hebrew Union College Press, 2000.
• ISAAC LURIA (1534–72) Ari Ashkenazi Palestinian kabbalist., Fifty key Jewish thinkers, By Dan Cohn-Sherbok, 2007.
• We see it in the kabbalistic doctrine cimcum, which was created by the Palestinian mystic Isaac Luria (1534-1572)., Unmasking Bruno Schulz, By Kris van Heuckelom, 2009.
• and never more frightfully than in the teachings of Isaac Luria (1522-70), a Palestinian kabbalist., Beyond the body: the human double and the astral planes, By Benjamin Walker, 1974.
• at the request of the Palestinian mystic and liturgist Isaac Luria (1534-1572)., Passport to Jewish music: its history, traditions, and culture, By Irene Heskes, 1984.
• The hasidim employed a ritual, attributed to the sixteenth-century Palestinian Rabbi Isaac Luria. Galʹed, Volume 4; Volume 13, ha-Makhon le-ḥeker ha-tefutsot., 1993.
• The Zohar as well as the teachings of the Palestinian kabbalists, such as the Ari, The story of the Baal Shem: life, love and teachings of the founder of Chassidism and Jewish mysticism, By Jacob Lazarus Snitzer, Abraham Burstein, 1946.
• Isaac ben Solomon Luria ('Ashkenazi'), known in abbreviation as Ari (1534-72), was a Palestinian kabbalist who lived in Safed from 1570, The book of direction to the duties of the heart by Baḥya ben Joseph ibn Paḳuda, Menahem Mansoor, 1973.
• In 1538 the Palestinian scholars of Safed and Jerusalem were drawn into the conflict, The Jewish people, past and present - Volume 1, Jewish Encyclopedic Handbooks, Inc., New York – 1946.
• investigations of the 16th-century Palestinian Kabbalist, Isaac Luria, Abstracts of papers delivered in art history sessions, College Art Association of America. Meeting, 1998.
• According to the Palestinian Kabbalist Isaac Luria (1534-1572), One hundred most influential books ever written, Martin Seymour-Smith, 2004.
• и палестинский каббалист Иц- хак бен-Шломо Ашкенази Лурия (1534-1772)., "Vestnik", 2005.
• Izaak Luria, palestyński mistyk żyjący w XVI wieku, Słownik schulzowski, Włodzimierz Bolecki, Jerzy Jarzębski, Stanisław Rosiek – 2003.
• którą wykreował palestyński mistyk Izaak Luria (1534-1572), Księga blasku: traktat o kabale w prozie Brunona Schulza, Władysław Panas – 1997.
• del grande qabbalista ebreo-palestinese Isaac Luria (1534-1572), L'enigma Dei Rosacroce.
• particularmente después que los eruditos palestinos Isaac Luria. Comentario, Issues 13-16, Instituto Judío Argentino de Cultura e Información – 1956.
• Einem palästinensischen Zahnarzt gelang es, ein heiliges Buch des Rabbi Isaak Luria, Zeiten des Schreckens: Amok, Terror, Krieg, Wolfgang Sofsky – 2002

Why should “Palestinian” not be mentioned? Chesdovi (talk) 13:40, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

For the reason I mentioned in the editsummary. That he lived for a few years in this area is not what makes him notable. That he was a famous rabbi and kabbalist does. In addition to the fact that there is no such thing as a Palestinian rabbi, no more than there is an English rabbi. All this is things we have been over many times. Debresser (talk) 16:00, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Are you really saying there is no such thing as an English rabbi? Chesdovi (talk) 16:24, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Not in any sense more distinguishing than an English engineer is from a French engineer. Which is why we shouldn't have either article. Chesdovi, you are confused with English rabbi as in ] ]. Debresser (talk) 17:00, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

If sources and meat are found, there is no good reason why French engineers cannot be written. It is a totally accepatable subject matter AFAIC. You also dismiss the reliance on RS, one of the the foundations of Misplaced Pages articles. Chesdovi (talk) 17:23, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Israel Dov Frumkin

Jusmine removed Category:Palestinian journalists from Israel Dov Frumkin: . I suggest re-adding this category. Chesdovi (talk) 15:08, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Good to know I'm not the only one. Category:Palestinian journalists is for something else than journalists who live in turn of the 20th century Ottoman Palestine. Does the Palestinian ethnicity and Palestinian Authority ring a bell with you? Debresser (talk) 16:03, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

You have agreed to have the same level of understanding as a 14 year old. Palestinian journalists include all journalists who ever lived in a place known nowadays as Palestine, be that people of Palestinian ethnicity or residency. Don't deny it. This is based on RS. Good grief. Chesdovi (talk) 16:19, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Category:Palestinian journalists is a subcategory of Category:Arab journalists. How did you plan to fit Israel Dov Frumkin into an Arab category? :) Debresser (talk) 22:12, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Ignore that Arab parent cat. It is erroneous and should be removed. Is Ibrahima Moctar Sarr Arab? No. Black African. The Arab world may not be known for its multiculturism, but other ethnicites do exist in Arab countires. Chesdovi (talk) 22:26, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Issachar ben Mordecai ibn Susan

I have reverted an IP which removed “Palestinian” from Issachar ben Mordecai ibn Susan. I am awaiting response from another editor as to why she removed the Palestinian category. Chesdovi (talk) 15:56, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Another editor who seems to agree with me. The answer is in the editsummary, which I will cite here for you: "Subject was not a Palestinian mathematician, but rather a Jewish mathematician living in the area then known as Palestine." Debresser (talk) 16:12, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

And was Meyer Löw Schomberg just a "Jewish" scientist from Germany? Chesdovi (talk) 16:21, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

1. Why do you ask? 2. Le's not turn this WikiProject page into your forum for propaganda of the term "Palestinian". Open a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Centralized discussion if you want to. Please drop me a note if you do. Debresser (talk) 16:52, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

The article about him says specifically "German-Jewish physician", so yes. Just a Jewish scientist from Germany. Debresser (talk) 22:14, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Great. So we can specifically call Issachar ben Mordecai ibn Susan, who was just a Jewish mathamatician from Palestine, a "Palestinian-Jewish mathamatician". I will add it. PS. Please don't report me. Chesdovi (talk) 22:30, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Please do not tire us. Why don't you take a break? Debresser (talk) 21:35, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Cfd for Category:Jews by country

In response to the action taken by an experienced editor resulting from this post, I suggest removing all counrty specific categories from all Jewish people. Chesdovi (talk) 16:50, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:No climbing the Reichstag dressed as Spider-Man. Debresser (talk) 16:57, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Sorry. I don't undersatnd. Chesdovi (talk) 17:00, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

I would be best if some other editor explained this to you. Please be patient. Debresser (talk) 17:02, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

I hope so, because I’m frankly quite frustrated of having to put up with you wriggling yourself out of providing clear cut answers to my queries, with excuses like “stop repeating yourself, “this has been discussed before” or simply by linking essays. Chesdovi (talk) 17:27, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

This is an interesting essay, and it is linked on Misplaced Pages guidelines and policies for a reason. Try and read it yourself, and perhaps you'll understand what I mean. Debresser (talk) 22:15, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Category:Jews from Thessaloniki

I have left a message at the creator of Category:Jews from Thessaloniki & Category:Thessalonian Jews, but since she has not been active since 2009. I ask for views about the need for both these cats. Are they not one and the same. I would merge into Category:Thessalonian Jews. Support? Chesdovi (talk) 15:31, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Support. Debresser (talk) 21:37, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Btw, did you notice that Category:Thessalonian Jews is in Category:Ottoman Jews. Now that may be true for all of the articles in there, but theoretically it could be that there is somebody in there from an earlier or later era. Suggestions?Debresser (talk) 21:39, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

I nominated this merger at Misplaced Pages:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2011_August_22#Category:Thessalonian_Jews, but see there that there is a catch. Debresser (talk) 22:58, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Good news!

		"Palestinian rabbis" passes Afd!
		Palestinian rabbis was kept with an overwhelming majority of 13 votes to 2. A victory for common sense and adherence to WP:RS and WP:NCCN. Keep up the good work everyone! Chesdovi (talk) 13:40, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

New article: Abiathar ben Elijah ha-Cohen

		Palestinian Gaon 1083 - 1109!
		Abiathar ben Elijah ha-Cohen is the latest addition to our historical series on the Palestinian Gaonate. Keep up the good work everyone! Chesdovi (talk) 13:40, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Category:Orthodox rabbis

While Medieval rabbis may fall within the sphere of Orthodoxy, some claim the term should not be applied to them as the term is generally used to distinguish between what became a necessity after the rise of reform "rabbis" in the 19th cent. Should we be placing classical rabbis such as Rashi in Category:Orthodox rabbis? Chesdovi (talk) 12:51, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

This question has bothered me as well upon occasion. Perhaps we should have "orthodox" only for the modern Orthodox Judaism movement, and use simply "rabbis" for all other time periods and the present chareidi rabbis? Debresser (talk) 16:26, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Absolutely not. The concept of "orthodoxy" dates from the 19th century. I would have great problems applying the label to anyone before that time. JFW | T@lk 18:21, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Second the motion on not retroactively applying modern labels to rabbi. It is the wiki-equivalent of the kids books with Moshe in a black hat. The question is a valid one: how do we label a rabbi who's philosophy or religious practice or halachic rulings are the basis of a given community in a way that shows the connection to that community. Maybe this is not the place for Wiki-Categories? Joe407 (talk) 05:31, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

I noticed various discussions at the relevant talk page, but don't think this was covered. AFAIC, no medieval or earlier rabbis should be categorised as "Orthodox", a term which should be applied to rabbis from the mid 19th- cent onwards. Chesdovi (talk) 11:07, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

We seem to agree that the term is unclear and unfit for categorisation, but where do we take it from here? What do we do with Category:Orthodox rabbis? Do we remove most of the subcategories (like Category:Early Acharonim and Category:Haredi rabbis) from it? Do we delete it afterwards, or merge it with Category:Modern Orthodox rabbis? What do we do with Category:Orthodox Jews and its subcategories? Debresser (talk) 08:35, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

The concepts "Haredi" and "Modern Orthodox" are even more recent, but they can adequately be a subcategory of "Orthodox rabbis".

With regards to Early Acharonim, I would disconnect the concept from Orthodoxy completely.

The same applies, mutatis mutandis, with members of Category:Orthodox Jews. Nobody before the mid-19th century should be placed in that category, for reasons stated. JFW | T@lk 19:25, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

This would seem to be the correct course of action. Editors, is there consensus for this? Debresser (talk) 22:05, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

The first Israeli separation barrier?

Can someone check whether this edit is valid: . I think the original category is correct in this case. Chesdovi (talk) 10:43, 24 August 2011 (UTC)