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WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A FALUN GONG DISCUSSION FORUM! Please, add new messages pertaining to editing the FLG article at the bottom of this page |
It is suggested that new readers of this "talk page" read the archived discussion below. It is likely that an issue of concern has already been discussed. As a result, a would-be poster can save the Wikipedian community time and effort spent on otherwise rehashing an issue if this responsbility is undertaken. Please remember that this isn't the place to vent our spleens in condemnation or gush praise for Falun Gong itself as much as it is to comment on the actual article content. We don't want a puff piece for Falun Gong or Li Hongzhi, neither do we want to demonise them. If we have an objectively neutral, factual article one hopes the truth will speak for itself, however we may subjectively perceive it. Archived discussion:
- /archive1, 1 April 2003 - 29 May 2005
- /Archive2, 29 May 2005 to 30 July 2005
- /Archive3, 31 July 2005 to 20 January 2006
- /Archive4, 21 January 2006 to 2 March 2006
- /Archive5, 3 March 2006 to 21 March 2006
Posts from Main Page for Discussion, or, Let's Start Over
Fire Star has suggested I post the following bullet items from the Beliefs section for discussion. Please read post # 24 above "Response to Request for Comments" for more detailed sources and comments concerning the formulation of my expository statements. Also note subsequent discussion and the comments made by Olaf concerning who can be saved in the Fa-rectification (an apparent change in emphasis by Master Li due to the persecution in China) --Tomananda 07:02, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
1. Li Hongzhi's Role as Savior in This Dharma-ending Period
Another feature of Falun Dafa is promotion of Li’s role as the exclusive savior of mankind in this “Dharma ending” period. If a Falun Gong practitioner were only to do the exercises, but fail to follow the requirements of the Fa, that person would not be considered a Dafa disciple and thus not a candidate for salvation. Falun Gong practitioners are promised the possibility of becoming Gods as long as they safeguard and uphold the Dafa. In 2003, Li Hongzhi said:
"I have truly borne for you the sins you committed over hundreds and thousands of years. And it doesn't stop at just that. Because of this, I will also save you and turn you into Gods. I have spared no effort for you in this process. Along with this, since you'll become Gods at levels that high, I have to give you the honors of Gods at levels that high and all the blessings that you need to have at levels that high."
- I know this has all been posted here before, but lets start over from the beginning with a fresh page. What I'd like to do is solicit comments (relatively brief if possible) on each of these points. We will take them individually. In this one Li does seem to be exercising the role of a religious saviour. Joseph Smith Jr., the founder of Mormonism, made similar promises. Do any FLG students have another take? --Fire Star 12:53, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Dilip Replies
What I dont agree with is the commentary given - which, with the intention of portraying Falun Dafa as an "authoritarian cult", ( Tomananda himself admitted that is what he wants to do) completely distorts the content. The text has no basis on facts!!
1."Another feature of Falun Dafa is promotion of Li’s role as the exclusive savior of mankind in this “Dharma ending” period."
From Zhuan Falun, Lecture 1, Section 7:
"Our Falun Dafa is one of the eighty-four thousand cultivation ways in the Buddha School."
2.If a Falun Gong practitioner were only to do the exercises, but fail to follow the requirements of the Fa, that person would not be considered a Dafa disciple and thus not a candidate for salvation.
Doing exercises alone is not enough because this is cultivation practice not aerobics. And these quotes very clearly demonstrate that belief in Falun Dafa doesnot automatically lead to "salvation" as Tomananda claims. The term "candidate for salvation" deviates far from the concept of cultivation practice found in Falun Dafa. The emphasis is always on cultivation of heart-nature(xinxing). See the quotes below:
From Teaching the Fa at the Conference in Europe (1998)
"If any of you sitting here can’t cultivate your xinxing (mind/heart-nature) to the point of Consummation, then I can’t do anything about it either"
From Zhuan Falun, Lecture 3, Section 1:
"Can you be considered a Falun Dafa disciple if you just practice these few sets of exercises everyday? Not necessarily. This is because true cultivation practice must follow the requirements of the xinxing standard that we have established, and you have to truly upgrade your xinxing—then, it is true cultivation practice. If you only practice the exercises without improving xinxing and without the powerful energy that strengthens everything, it cannot be called cultivation practice; neither can we treat you as Falun Dafa disciples."
From Zhuan Falun, Lecture 3, Section 3:
"Without cultivating the heart, no one can make it. Conversion is a formality of everyday people. Are you a member of the Buddha School after conversion? Will Buddha then take care of you? There is no such thing. Even if you kowtow everyday until your head bleeds, or even if you burn bundles of incense, it is still useless. You must truly cultivate your heart to make it work."
This clearly distinguishes Falun Dafa from "religious belief":
From Zhuan Falun, Lecture 4, Section 4:
"Genuine cultivation practice depends entirely upon a person him or herself, so it is useless to pray for something."
I find no realtion between Falun Dafa and Mormonism or Scientology!!! Falun Dafa is cultivation practice which is faaar from what they are. "50 cents" and Beethoven are musicians but there is a difference- but in this case I dont see even that much similarity!
Dilip rajeev 13:41, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
2. Li Hongzhi's Role as Protector
Also found is the idea that Master Li has numerous Fashen (spiritual Law bodies) which protect practitioners from harm. These Law bodies “exercise great supernatural power." They surround practitioners at all times and know everything that is on their minds. Li Hongzhi states in the Zhuan Falun : “If you can really cultivate in the right way, nobody dares to touch you rashly. What’s more, you are under the protection of my Law bodies, so you will never be in any danger.”
3. Consequences for a Practitioner Who Does Not Follow Requirments of the Fa
While protecting practitioners, the Master’s Law bodies also cure the illnesses for those who practice at the Falun Gong exercise sites. However practitioners are warned that if they fail to follow the requirements of the Fa, bad consequences will result. In Zhuan Falun Li Hongzhi states that if a practitioner does not follow the requirments of the Fa, his "body will be reset to the level of everyday people and the bad things will be returned to you.”
In addition to providing disease-curing benefits, it is believed that cultivation practice will actually prolong one’s life. But there is danger for those who might not live up to the Fa’s requirements. In Zhuan Falun Li Hongzhi states that when a practitioner continually practices cultivation, his life will be prolonged. However, there is a criterion "that the life prolonged beyond your predestined time to live is completely reserved for your practice. If your mind goes wrong a little bit, your life will be in danger because your lifetime should have long been over.”
There are more serious dangers for those who directly violate the Dafa. For example, a practitioner who plagiarizes the Dafa is subject to the ultimate penalty of death. In The Essentials Li Hongzhi states:
“Did you know that in recent years some students suddenly died?...Once you are reduced to the level of an everyday person, no one will protect you and demons will also take your life. It’s even useless to seek protection from other Buddhas, Daos, and Gods, as they won’t protect someone who undermines the Fa. What’s more, your karma will also be returned to your body.”
4. Fa-rectification: the Dafa Judging All Beings
If practitioners follow the requirements of the Fa they are promised salvation, or what Falun Gong also calls consummation. The idea of salvation for a practitioner has developed over time. In Li Hongzhi’s earlier teachings the focus was on an individual practitioner reaching consummation. In 1999,in what many would consider an apocalyptic prediction, Li Hongzhi warned that "The vows of Gods in history are being fulfilled. The Dafa is judging all beings.” Underlying this prediction is the teaching that the entire cosmos is undergoing a process called “Fa-rectification” – a kind of spiritual cleansing in which corrupt people will be eliminated, leaving behind only those who are worthy according to Dafa standards. In 2001 Li Hongzhi made clear that this Fa-rectification would target people based on their moral qualities, or xinxing:
“Moreover, when an Enlightened Being descends to the world, it is usually at a time when people’s morals are declining day by day, when people’s sins and karma are enormous, or when people’s morality is degenerate. Once the saved ones have attained the Fa and left, the dregs of humanity and the degenerate world that are left behind will be weeded out.”
5. Saving All Beings, the Good and the Bad
Note: This section was written in response to Olaf's commentary above. There has definitely been a shift in emphasis in Falun Gong teachings concerning Fa-rectification over the years. Whereas the previous focus had been on the development of moral quality (xinxing) for a practitioner to reach individual consumation, the newer emphasis is on the requirment that Falun Gong practitioners work to save all sentient beings during the Fa-rectification, as well as "safeguard and uphold" the Dafa.
In Li Hongzhi's most recent speeches, a practitioner's requirment to "safeguard and uphold the Dafa" seems to mean that the practitioner must work to expose the "evil,wicked CCP" and educate the public about the persecution of Falun Gong practitioners in China. This does not mean that Li Hongzhi has abandoned the moral teachings, but rather that he now emphasizes that all people can be saved providing they "do not play a negative role with regard to Dafa." He can make exceptions and save even the "evil ones" by giving them them "benevolent solutions."
Here's the proposed text:
It is still believed that one’s moral quality is an essential component of Falun Gong cultivation. However, in responding to the persecution of practitioners in China after the ban of 1999, Li Hongzhi has apparently opened up the categories of people who can be saved. In his more recent lectures and writings, he has stated that all human beings, not just the good ones, can be saved during the Fa-rectification process, providing they do not have "a bad attitude" towards the Dafa. In 2005 Li Hongzhi stated:
“In the Fa-rectification, Master is actually saving all beings, not just the good ones; evil ones are of course included as well. I have often said that during the Fa-rectification I don't hold the past faults of any sentient being against him, and that I look only at a sentient being's attitude toward Dafa during the Fa-rectification. In other words, no matter which beings they are or how huge the mistakes and sins they committed in history, as long as they do not play a negative role with regard to the Fa-rectification, I can give them benevolent solutions and eliminate their sins and karma.”
--Tomananda 07:02, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Dilip Replies
Note this:
Tomananda Claims: "It is still believed that one’s moral quality is an essential component of Falun Gong cultivation. However, in responding to the persecution of practitioners in China after the ban of 1999, Li Hongzhi has apparently opened up the categories of people who can be saved."
From Teaching the Fa at the Conference in Europe (1998)
"No matter what kind of person you are and no matter how many bad things you’ve done, I will look after you as long as you can truly cultivate with a sincere heart."
From Zhuan Falun,Lecture 4 Section 2 (Published in 1993):
"Someone asked, “Is it that if one has too much black substance one is unable to practice to high levels?” One could say so, as with a lot of black substance, one’s enlightenment quality will be affected. Because it forms a field around one’s body and wraps a person up right in the middle, one is cut off from Zhen-Shan-Ren, the characteristic of the universe. Thus, this person’s enlightenment quality may be poor. When people talk about cultivation practice and qigong, this person will consider all of them superstitious, and he will not believe them at all. He will find them ridiculous. It is usually this way, but not absolutely so. Is it that it’s too difficult for this person to practice cultivation, and that he is unable to achieve high-level gong? It is not so. We have said that Dafa is boundless, and it is completely up to your heart to practice cultivation. The master takes you through the entrance, and it is up to you, yourself to practice cultivation. It all depends upon how you, yourself practice cultivation. Whether you can practice cultivation all depends upon whether you can endure, sacrifice, and suffer. If you can commit your mind, no difficulties can stop you. I would say that there is not a problem."
I will be pointing out fallacies in all the claims made by Tomananda. Till then the editors are requested to make sure that such grossly twisted material doesnt go into the article.
Dilip rajeev 13:51, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
- Dilip, you have good points, and I wish you would edit and provide background for Tomananda's additions instead of entirely removing them. We must settle this in a spirit of mutual cooperation. In addition, as a practitioner, one should exercise forbearance, don't you agree? If practitioners are right, everybody will probably understand it sooner or later, and if we're wrong, then we'll just move on, right? We don't have to impose on people what we think is true. It's not that differing opinions (be it "ours" or "theirs", even though I don't like such antagonistic separation) have anything to do with the authentic truth or falsehood of Dafa. Let's all take a step back and calm down! I assure you that we can work this out together. ---Olaf Stephanos 19:01, 21 March 2006 (UTC)