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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Izogi (talk | contribs) at 02:14, 22 March 2006 (→monetary waste). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

To-do list

Here's a list of possible things that the article might benefit from, in no particular order:

Feel welcome to edit the list, of course. Izogi 23:55, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Never Seen Night Time

at least until I went away to college, even then the sky was still a bright orange color (-;

• ya, I live in Las Vegas, so i know what you mean. But I'm also an amatuer astronomer, so I get away at least once a year.

This article will help me with my science project

Thanks!

"really semi-barbaric densely populated areas of the United States" -- that's supposed to be NPOV?!

FAC?

Just came across this article and it's looking great! Izogi seems to have done a great job making this into a very good piece of work. I'd love to nominate this as a FAC, but I know there's one thing that might hold it back - references. If someone could add this one missing section (perhaps by rearranging the External links section) then I reckon it could become featured. violet/riga (t) 23:02, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, that's very flattering and I agree with you about the references. (So far I've been lazy, since a lot of the info that I've added has been coming from recollections of my own experience.) I'll look at improving them over the next few days to help back up the information. I also still feel that it's not quite complete yet, and it trails off a bit towards the end. In particular, there's quite a bit more that might be said about the methods of reducing light pollution. If anyone wants to help fill that in, the door's open. Otherwise I'll see what I can do. Izogi 01:41, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

More pictures

I don't know if anyone's following the edits I've been making lately. If you are, though, can anyone provide an extra image or two for inclusion in the article? In particular, I've been looking around for a good picture of something like a drop-lens cobra fixture, taken during the day, to demonstrate how it's designed in such a way so that light will escape horizontally and upwards. Any other images that might demonstrate things in the article would be great too, of course.

I'd thought there might be free-to-use pictures available from the IDA, but it seems to want to charge even to obtain them, let alone re-publish.

Izogi 07:09, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Well the quality could be better, but these two may help — by the way I assume these are cobra liuminairs based on the examples given elsewhere. If that's not right, please rename them. -- Solipsist 15:52, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thanks -- these are just what I had in mind. I'll try them out in the article. Izogi 21:02, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Temporarily (?) removed a paragraph

"According to a study performed by Backpacker magazine, Natural Bridges National Monument, Utah has the least amount of light pollution, and thererefore the darkest skies in the continental United States."

I've just (temporarily) removed the above paragraph from the Consequences/Loss of night sky section, because it doesn't seem to fit there when I read it. It doesn't seem like a consequence to me. I'm not sure exactly which section it should go into as they are right now. It might be that the article needs a new section for the current state of light pollution in different parts of the world, or something like that, but if so it'd be nice to have a bit more information stated than a line about Utah in the USA. Hopefully it can be cited a bit more specifically soon, too -- I've contacted User:R Lee E to ask about where it came from. Does anyone have any thoughts? Izogi 10:54, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

readded blip about darkest sky in U.S.

october 2004, page 56 - cover article is entitled "America's Last Wild Places"R Lee E 03:42, July 29, 2005 (UTC)

Neat, thanks. I've adjusted the citation slightly, for consistency as much as anything else. Izogi 05:14, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

I presume the intention is to add the place with the darkest sky in every other country as well? Otherwise it is US-POV and should be removed - MPF 23:22, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

Point taken. It's very biased towards the US, and I'm not comfortable with that either. (I'm not from the US at all, FWIW.) I do think it's relevant, however, that people have to travel for hours or days at great expense just to get somewhere that's unaffected, and one or two representative examples of that would be beneficial, irrespective of where they come from. It might read better if it was worked into the surrounding text as a representative example. Not having access to the cited article, though, I don't want to start editing it blindly. Izogi 00:29, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Sofixit - its not like its a left-wing, right-wing thing. I simply supplied the relevant and useful information that I came across, and I wasn't considering politics. And personally I can't see any reason to consider politics. If you can provide similar info for other countries, that'd be wonderful. But it would be an over-reaction to start a NPOV debate over this. R Lee E 00:16, August 8, 2005 (UTC)

I'll see what I can find. Come to think of it, wouldn't the darkest place in the continental US be somewhere in Alaska? - or should it read "the contiguous states"? - MPF 00:23, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

regarding your statement about Alaska, my assumption with that is the fact that it stays dark for about 3 or 4 hours in the summer up there. The sun doesn't set until about 11:00pm up there in the summer. When it does set, its more like a perpetual twilight rather than complete darkness. R Lee E 00:58, August 8, 2005 (UTC)

What do people think about re-formatting of references?

I've been thinking about re-formatting the references list to use footnote-style numbering templates. (My favourite is Misplaced Pages:Footnote3, because it's auto-numbered.) The main reason I'd like to do this is because a lot of the citations aren't clear author-title-date specified. Instead, it's a mixture including many web pages, government reports, and so on. I've been finding it a bit difficult to briefly but accurately refer to specific references from within the text. A auto-numbered system could remove a lot of ambiguity and make the citations tidier to look at. The References section of the Tasmanian Devil article is an example similar to what I have in mind.

How would others feel about this change, though? Is it a problem to anyone else? Are there better ways of fixing it? I realise that the numbering system is controversial in some ways, both for clarity in some people's view, as well as some technical arguments with respect to Misplaced Pages. (See here for more detail).

Izogi 03:59, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Cobra Luminarie (At night)

G'day, I've an excelent opportunity to take a picture of both types of lights at night with the patterns of illumination visible. We are currently feeling the effects of Hurricane Katrina and so I won't be able to take a good picture of the lights until a few days from now, but I'll add 'em here for your perusal. Flehmen 16:42, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Hello (again). Thanks for offering. If you do this, though, could you please make an effort to take notes of all the relevant camera settings? Photography's something that's quite easy to be creative with, maybe unfortunately in this case. One of the things I find a bit disturbing about many light pollution information sources and advocate groups is that they show lots of comparison photos, but don't clearly state any evidence that it's not just creative photography causing the lights to look less glarey, and so on. If someone was trying to use them to convince me, possible creative photography is one of the first things I'd question. If the relevant camera settings are all documented, though, it'll be much easier to present it objectively and from more of a neutral point of view. Maybe I'm pedantic, but it seems like a lazy way for so many organisations to do it, and I think it's something that Misplaced Pages could quite easily do much better than what tends to be the status quo. Izogi 06:39, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

No, that sounds like an appropriate idea. MY thought is to take them both in the same picture. Of course, as with anything digital, that doesn't even matter but it is a little more appropriate when comparing...Flehmen 09:42, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Question about efficiency of cobra light fixtures

The article claims these fixtures are more efficient. This claim is unclear. My initial thinking reading this was that its not more energy efficient, since the same amount of power is drawn, but the light merely gets lost inside the fixture. I suppose it could be more efficient if the bulb is shaped to only allow light to point downward, or the inside of the fixture has some sort of mirror coating. Is this the case? If so, we should say so in the article, instead of just making this vague claim about efficiency. Thanks. ThePedanticPrick 17:36, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Hello. The pictures (and their captions) used to be in the opposite order, so some of the context might have been lost by putting the full cutoff one first. What it should indicate is that a flat lens cobra fixture is a full cutoff fixture, whereas the drop-lens cobra fixture isn't. This means that the flat-lens fixture doesn't emit light to useless places (ie. sideways and upwards), so less energy is needed overall and the light can operate on less total power. This is explained in the text, but the caption didn't seem to prioritise the phrase "full cutoff", so it might not have been clear that that's what it was talking about. I've made a quick attempt to make it clearer, but I'm about to go out, so won't be able to look at it properly immediately. If anyone else wants to have a go meanwhile, help yourself. Izogi 06:56, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Recently added arguments against full cutoff lighting

Hello. Anonymous user 68.166.244.209 recently added a paragraph that cited D. Keith in the "Journal of the IES", who (apparently) claims quite a few things about systems with full cutoff fixtures. Does anyone know which journal this is? The citation details don't seem to be specific enough to indicate which papers or articles are being referenced.

I did a quick google, and there's a Journal of the IES which stands for "Journal of the Institution of Engineers Singapore". Then I looked a bit further, and this page indicates that the same name is also an alternate title for the Journal of Environmental Sciences.

Neither of these journals seem to have online table of contents details to indicate if the articles are there, and I'm not sure if I have access to a library at the moment. Does anyone (is the anon user still around?) have access to check this out? (One of the cites is here: http://www.iesna.org/PDF/abstractsJIESsummer2000.pdf with more info from D. Keith here: http://resodance.com/mdi/UUDcalc.pdf --trl). The claims are likely to be quite contriversial, so it'd be good to have an accurate reference if it's going to be in the article. It'd be good to have some specific article titles and issue numbers rather than just years.

Izogi 22:16, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

This user also claims full-cutoff fixtures are 30-50% more expensive to install and operate than "more efficient" designs, without even hinting what these putative designs are. Perhaps globe luminaires might spray light further than full-cutoff models, allowing fewer streetlights to be installed, but this comes at the expense of increased glare.

Guest 03:25, 25 Oct 2005 (UTC)

I think you're right. This is quite controversial. On its own this shouldn't be a problem, but and theres really not and specific enough citation to back it up. I'm going to remove the paragraph in question (it's included below for easier future reference) from the article on these grounds. Unfortunately the anonymous user who inserted it doesn't seem to be available to comment on it's authenticity and context. I have no objection to it being put back if the citation can be clarified and made specific enough to track down each specific publication that's being cited, and as long as the article explains it in context. eg. If D. Keith is a radical researcher whom few peers agree with, we should make it quite clear that it's not a commonly held opinion, or exactly what circles the opinion is held in. Izogi 06:29, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Removed text (which is adapted from the original) is as follows: "Some researchers (Keith, D., Journal of the IES, 2000, 2002, 2003) have reported that using "full cutoff" light fixtures increases the costs and energy use necessary to meet the objectives of the lighting. When lighting a roadway continuously in accordance with the American National Standard Practice for Roadway Lighting, IESNA full cutoff distributions increase the initial and operating costs by around 20% and up to 50% compared to more effective light distributions. This does NOT mean all full cutoff distributions are worse than others, but that lighting systems with full cutoff distributions will typically NOT be the most cost and energy efficient lighting choice. Not only are full cutoff distributions usually more expensive to install and operate, but also side-effects such as mercury pollution (from generation of electricity) will increase by the same proportion. Uplight, light above horizontal that contributes to sky glow has also been shown to increase (Keith, D., Journal of the IES, 2000, 2003) when full cutoff distributions are used."

Removal of loss-of-security section

I noticed that Bletch has just removed the small section about reduction of security due to light pollution on the grounds that it was poorly referenced. The reasoning seems fair enough, even though I'm pretty certain that this consequence is very definitely claimed by a lot of anti-light-pollution activists.

Would anyone happen to have any citations off-hand that relate to this claim? I think it's an important section to have simply because it's such a common claim, irrespective of whether we claim that things like glare actually do reduce security in some circumstances (and cite studies), or simply point out that lots of other people believe it does (and cite them). Izogi 22:56, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

hi izogi, im stumped on this one....i havent a reference....the only reason i like the section in is that there are too many lawyers running around suing for slip and fall cases arguing poorly lit parking lots...so its a good balance to that litigious hysteria. in general we alsmost have too mcuh material on the pros and cons of light pollution, whereas i dont really think of this as a controversial subject...im a scientist and the facts seem clear: no one has a right to inflict unwanted light on another person....and the amount of energy wastage going on here with overillumination is staggering, cheers Anlace 04:34, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the thoughts. Personally I think it's important to have something about the issue, just because it's something that's so often claimed, irrespective of whether or not it holds up. Within an hour or so, I might try re-adding the paragraph to see how it looks with some emphasis that they're claims, and support it initially with some simple website citations displaying the claims (but not going as far to state if they hold up or not). It might be extended or improved in the future if anyone's able to locate direct references to actual studies that argue one way or another. Izogi 06:51, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Reversing intro photos

Hello - just to note that I've reversed the order of the first two photos in the article because I think the NY photo is actually demonstrating Light Pollution, whereas the satellite composition is really just demonstrating what causes it (upward directed light). Given that Light Pollution is the main point of the article, it seems appropriate that it's actually shown first. Izogi 20:55, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

monetary waste

not clear we need a separate section on monetary waste, but dollar cost is worth elaborating under energy wastage. also costs are probably even higher than stated,, anyone have a good ref for this? in any case text needs editing for NPOV Anlace 00:47, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Personally, the more I think about it, I'm not certain that "monetary waste" is a very significant consequence of light pollution. Arguably the only person losing money is the person who pays the power bill. The money isn't lost, though, it's simply given to someone else. Energy companies then make money from people who waste energy, so it's not exactly "waste" for them as much as increased demand. To get more abstract, when energy use is inefficient, energy companies employ (and pay salaries of) more people to produce the extra energy, ultimately circulating more money through the economy and resulting in better living conditions. It's strange how an economy can be boosted through inefficiency, but that's also exactly what happens in some wartime situations, for instance. (The production boom for WW2 did a lot to relieve people who'd suffered in the 1930's depression, despite extensive borrowing from governments to fund it, and that was primarily building things to blow stuff up.)

I don't particularly care for that argument myself, because I think that both immediate and long term side effects (eg. impact on the sky, power generation from non-renewable sources, etc) outweigh any possible benefits of inefficiency in power generation. On the other hand, me taking this point of view would still mean that it's not an argument about money at all -- it's an argument about side-effects of wasted light and wasted energy.

All that said, I don't think the monetary waste section is written with a very neutral point of view, and it doesn't cite any sources for its claims. At the risk of someone reverting the change, I'm going to see if I can merge the relevant bit with another section. This is just what I think, and I'm happy to discuss things further.

Izogi 02:14, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages pages with to-do lists