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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Future Perfect at Sunrise (talk | contribs) at 15:35, 3 December 2011 (→Visibility: re). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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North Korean claim for Dokdo in infobox

I don't think it is not needed to describe the North Korean claim of Dokdo. Actually it claims entire South Korea. Japan and South Korea are disputing on the island. I suggest to remove its claim. --Cheol (talk) 05:13, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

North Korea is a separate country, they have a separate claim on the island. It's no different than if China, Russia, or Barbados had a claim on the islands. The fact that North Korea disputes other places doesn't seem relevant to me. Qwyrxian (talk) 05:09, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

We note the ROC claim on Tibet; it doesn't matter that their army has no physical way of getting there. Shii (tock) 05:17, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

I asked a citation for North Korean claim. And it's contradictory that at the end of the article, it says 'North Korea supports South Korean claim'. Any idea to fix the contradiction? --Cheol (talk) 09:28, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

"According to the KCNA, Dokdo island has been the sacred territory of North Korea since ancient times." http://world.globaltimes.cn/asia-pacific/2011-02/626698.html Shii (tock) 09:30, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Both North and South Korea claim entire Korea to be their territory. NK supporting SK claim should be understood that they consider that Liancourt Rocks are part of Korea, not that they consider the islets are South Korean territory. --Kusunose 01:37, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Right, NK claims entire Korea including Dokdo. Do you think we need to describe the particular fact that is not only claim on islets in the infobox? --Cheol (talk) 02:41, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

In infobox, it states NK claims these islets as a part of North Kyeongsang Province. Now, NK has not have Kyeongsang Province. It belongs to SK. Then we can say NK claim while NK recognizes them as a part of current SK territory. --Cheol (talk) 14:38, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Visibility

Why is this relevant? Maybe on the dispute page but it seems out of place here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.196.80.97 (talk) 17:55, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Good point. The only reason it's included seems to be that some agenda-pushing editors were fond of building their own home-made arguments about it, somehow along the implied idea that if you can see island X from country Y, that somehow strengthens country Y's claim to X. Interestingly, none of these agenda-pushing accounts ever bothered to spell out those arguments and their premises themselves (let alone source them); they were all merely busy writing diatribes about visibility as if something of enormous importance were hinging on it, without ever saying what it was. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:01, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm happy taking out the whole paragraph; the only reason to keep it would be if a reliable source actually used this as an argument in favor of Korea's claim. While that would be an awfully specious argument, if it were reliable (not just a blog post), I suppose a sentence could remain, although perhaps it should be in a different section. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:32, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

I implemented this change the other day, but it was reverted without any explanation and in breach of the special editing rules on this article today by Ryuch (talk · contribs) . If I don't hear a good argument for this reinstatement of the "visibility" material, I intend to revert it again in a while. Looking at the footnotes: (1) footnote 13 is a dead link, and apparently went to an unreliable web site to begin with. (2) Footnotes 14+15 are from a publication that might be reliable as far as the raw facts are concerned, but we still have no reliably sourced information why and according to what criteria these raw facts would be in any way relevant for us; the text is still presenting them as if visibility was important for something, without saying why. (3) Footnotes 16+17 are entirely WP:OR. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:39, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for further explanation, Future Perfect at Sunrise. I thought you violated the rule enforced at this page. You should ask consensus to delete a large amount of text. Now I hear your more concise arguments. I think those links were not fake and as time goes by links could be broken. Visibility is very frequent arguments in Korea, I think I can find the changed links. Please, be harmonious with me. --Cheol (talk) 13:59, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

I want to hear more why you think visibility is not relevant to the natural condition of these islets. --Cheol (talk) 14:26, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

As you can see from the discussion above, my edit was in fact based on previous consensus in talk, and besides, it was never a revert to begin with. And even if my edit had been a violation of the rule, that didn't justify you violating it in turn – in fact, from what you say now, I understand that you were aware of the rule and broke it knowingly. About the footnotes: nobody claimed the links were "fake". As I said, number 13 may well have been working a few years ago, but there is no indication it was ever a reliable source; footnotes 16+17 are not references at all but merely an editor's personal speculation. If you can find reliable sources making some sort of case about it, then of course we can include it somewhere, although I'd say it shouldn't go into that physical facts section, but directly into some "dispute/arguments"-related section. Because if it is true that any visibility-related argument is specifically a Korean argument, then the very fact that we are mentioning visibility in the geography section could easily be understood as implying that the premises of that Korean argument are valid, i.e. that visibility is in some way a relevant criterion for something – which is very far from obvious indeed.

I asked you to self-revert. Are you refusing to do that? Because if that's the case, I'd have to ask for the rule to be enforced against you. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:35, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

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