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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Stephfo (talk | contribs) at 22:09, 7 December 2011 (→Hello from Wekn: comment). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Welcome

Hello, Stephfo! Welcome to Misplaced Pages! Thank you for your contributions. You may benefit from following some of the links below, which will help you get the most out of Misplaced Pages. If you have any questions you can ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and ask your question there. Please remember to sign your name on talk pages by clicking or by typing four tildes "~~~~"; this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you are already excited about Misplaced Pages, you might want to consider being "adopted" by a more experienced editor or joining a WikiProject to collaborate with others in creating and improving articles of your interest. Click here for a directory of all the WikiProjects. Finally, please do your best to always fill in the edit summary field when making edits to pages. Happy editing!   — Jess· Δ♥ 00:20, 12 July 2011 (UTC) Getting Started The five pillars of Misplaced Pages • Tutorial • Your first article How to: edit a page • upload an image Getting Help Frequently Asked Questions New contributors' help page Where to: ask questions • make requests Request administrator attention Policies and Guidelines Neutral point of view • Reliable sources Verifiability • Citing sources • No original research What Misplaced Pages is not • Biographies of living persons Manual of Style • Three-revert rule • Sock puppetry Copyrights • Policy for non-free content • Image use policy External links • Spam • Vandalism Deletion policy • Conflict of interest • Notability The Community Community Portal • Adopt-a-user program Assume good faith • Civility • Etiquette No personal attacks • Resolving disputes Build consensus • Village pump Signpost • IRC channels • Mailing lists Things to do Be bold in editing • Help develop an article Maintenance • Peer review • Requested articles Join a WikiProject • Translating articles Cleaning up: General • Spam • Vandalism Miscellaneous Categories • Disambiguity • Stubs User pages • Talk pages Useful templates • Tools • User scripts

/Archive 1 /Archive 2 /Archive 3

You have been blocked for an indefinite period

Mentoring

Hi Stephfo, sorry about the wikijargon. Why don't we take this step by step. We'll get you back in wiki-good graces in no time.

1. Click on "my preferences" on the top of the page, scroll down and enable your email. This is how you will communicate with your mentor.
2. Look over the list of mentors at Misplaced Pages:Adopt-a-user/Adoptee's Area/Adopters, pick two and post them here on your talkpage. I'll notify them of your interest on their talk page. – Lionel 12:06, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Thank you Lionel for your kind advice, however, my e-mail has been enabled since the very beginning of existence of my WP account as far as I can tell, thus, please advise whether there is any other required on top of it. I'm not sure whether I understand my situation correctly, but my impression was that I can ask for mentor only when getting unblocked, and to get unblocked, I need to go for ArbCom as an unblock request of last resort where I have to demonstrate that I have used all other means before, last but one being unblock request in here. My problem however is that to prevent decline based on argumentation that I do not understand reasons for my block, I really first should understand why I'm blocked, which is quite challenging. I believe if e.g. nobody is able to identify the consensus that I allegedly breached (neither its wording, authorship nor "birth") then it is absolutely natural that I could neither identify nor breach this UFO-type of consensus either (I noticed the consensus has usually even voting taking place at WP and clear conclusive declarations, e.g. "A summary of the conclusions reached follows. Closing discussion. Suggestion to remove POV tag went 8 days without response"), in the same way as my accusers are not able to identify it and fail to explain what I should have done differently on that particular occasion when I followed both advice of other editor and WP:rules on consensus arrival with absence of objections against my addressing concerns of others clearly expressed at the talk page (please note I'm aware this was not the only argument, but still it makes no sense to move disruptively to others before making conclusion on first one). To me it follows it makes no sense to file unblock request since ironically I should first understand accusations that are incomprehensible, and not demonstrated, based on pure assertions without bothering factual accuracies. Moreover, accepting wrongdoing in many cases would imply absurd conclusions such as labelling addressing concerns of others as disruptive, labelling university press as poor resource, keeping advices of other experienced editors as disruptive, approving removal of material based on self-invented unverifiable claims, promoting controversial article declarations not backed up by in-line citations, considering kindly asking for fixing mistakes with detailed courtesy explanation of mistake at talk page as harassment (but I still can apologize if someone misunderstood it that way), and so on. Please note I do not have problem to accept wrongdoing when explained in logically coherent way and clearly demonstrated (what I routinely did in the past (See e.g.If so, then I apologize)), however due to aforementioned absurd conclusions I'm not able to do so in relation to imposed accusations. I also have to admit I do not have enough trust so far such unblock request would make sense, especially when someone is able to declare as during my previous block that I breached consensus before even 3-rd party editor joined discussion on the article talk page (this would imply another absurdity that given editor objecting my edit has some kind of a priori privilege to have his POV becoming automatically consensus regardless of opinion of others) and could at least dream of any consensus to start shaping, it gives me all grounds to assume the same biased attitude now towards my request. Pls. advise whether I should try my accusers to get their accusation explained and demonstrated in logically coherent way or whether there is other way to move on wrt. mentor (I still plan to address emphasized points by Noformation later on). Thanx a lot in advance --Stephfo (talk) 13:58, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm not well versed in dispute resolution, so I can't really help out on the particulars of your situation, that's what a mentor does. Anyway I'd get a mentor before the unblock request, and since you're a new user I think you may be able to find a mentor. Take a look at "Enable e-mail from other users" on the Preferences tab. It should be checked. Did any mentors interest you at Misplaced Pages:Adopt-a-user/Adoptee's Area/Adopters? – Lionel 09:31, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Pls. advise what status I should look for when reviewing mentors, for me it is quite confusing how to interpret green status "Now adopting!", does it mean the given mentor just have assigned himself/herself to someone so that he/she is not available for others anymore or does it mean that he/she is currently idle and ready for mentoring? Thanks in advance for your explanation.--Stephfo (talk) 16:55, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Green means they're open to mentoring you if you contact them. If any have experience with dispute resolution, those should be your top choices. ~Amatulić (talk) 18:14, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

OK, then the choice is easy as there is only one such editor available, namely, KuduIO, how do I approach him if I'm blocked? He does not have e-mail contact hyperlinked as others seem to have.--Stephfo (talk) 18:32, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

If you go to KuduIO's user page, there's a link "email user" available, either in the pull-down menu at the top of the page, or in the tools column on the left side (depending on which skin you're using). I'll copy the email link here: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:EmailUser/KuduIO&action=view ~Amatulić (talk) 18:39, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your help, seems to have worked out.--Stephfo (talk) 19:07, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Following up the advice on finding mentor preferably experienced in dispute resolution

This help request has been answered. If you need more help, you can ask another question on your talk page, contact the responding user(s) directly on their user talk page, or consider visiting the Teahouse.

It seems my selected mentor is not active at WP around these days, please advise how to follow up further. I have not managed to find other in-dispute-resolution-experienced mentors on the list. Thanks a lot in advance.--Stephfo (talk) 09:01, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Well hello Stephfo! If it's ok with you, since you can only edit your own page, why don't I see if I can find a mentor for you. I'll be right back... – Lionel 09:50, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Lionel(t), it is OK with me to search help of mentor on my behalf, if you are willing and able. You're correct, I'm not able to post invitations myself.--Stephfo (talk) 10:00, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

As a note to any editors following up on the mentoring request, Stephfo recently removed an extensive discussion of the block from this talk page which might be of interest as background. Nick-D (talk) 19:01, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Hello Stephfo, Lionelt asked me on my talk page about whether I would be interested in mentoring you. I've taken a brief look at this issue, and I would be more than happy to mentor. I have had some experience mediating disputes for MedCab and for Third Opinion. If you would like me to mentor you, I'll take a closer look and see what I can do to help. Best, Alpha_Quadrant 16:09, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Looking over the discussion, it appears that you are blocked because you edit warred twice, then after consensus had been reached, you continued to argue your point. Which is, by definition, disruptive editing. If that is the only problem, this shouldn't be too difficult to resolve. Alpha_Quadrant 17:09, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks a lot Alpha Quadrant for your analysis - I'm really willing to admit as I already did in the course of previous discussion that my decision to participate in ongoing discussion on the article talk page after a proposition for applying dispute resolution "tools" and means had been made was really unhappy step forward that have earned me this block/sanction just few hours later after such stupid decision. Nevertheless I will for sure have problem to swallow a somersault in logic that call of four editors for 3rd-party resource ("Provide reliable sources that meet QP policy requirements!!!!"/"Finding sources is YOUR responsibility."/"do you ever intend to start editing according to policy, finding sources for your claims"/"We have as yet no third-party source") should be in fact interpreted as consensus against such addition of 3rd-party resource, I hope such thing will not be required, but even if so, I'm willing to accept such requirement if group of enforcing administrators would put it as one of the inevitable conditions for my unblock. Pls. advise how to move forward. Thanx a LOT again.--Stephfo (talk) 20:18, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Ok, the next step is to acknowledge the reason for the block. You need to understand that edit warring is not permitted, and that once a rough consensus is established, it is usually best to accept it. Arguing the same argument after it has already been discussed usually frustrates other editors. Alpha_Quadrant 23:37, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your clear explanation, now I really understand that edit warring is not permitted, and that once a rough consensus is established, such as recommendation that further WP:DISPUTE resolution process should involve, e.g. calling a WP:RFC, or making a post on an appropriate noticeboard (e.g. WP:FTN or WP:NPOVN), the best way is to go for that recommendation right away and stay away from article talk discussion. Herby I do declare that I'm acknowledging that in this respect I utterly misunderstood the advice I was given by Nick-D during my previous block as "During a dispute, you should first try to discuss controversial changes and seek consensus. If that proves unsuccessful, you are encouraged to seek dispute resolution, and in some cases it may be appropriate to request page protection." and I clearly failed to identify the moment when the consensus was reached or when seeking it turned out to be unsuccessful. I'm ready and willing to consult future cases with mentor to improve my capabilities in this respect. Thanks for your understanding.--Stephfo (talk) 14:54, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Hi Stephfo. I'm one of several admins who declined one of your past unblock requests. You probably already have come to understand what I'm about to say, but I'll say it anyway if it will help you or others with future unblock requests. (Here's hoping you won't have to make any!)

Many unblock requests attempt to justify actions based on the editor's position in a dispute. But when it comes to blocking and unblocking, no admin is interested in the dispute. Unblocking a user on that basis would be a non-neutral act. It just won't happen.

Also, admins are not interested in the blockee's reasons why the block is unjust, although they are open to considering misunderstandings. When unblocking, behavior and preventing further disruption are all that matter.

Therefore, unblock requests that fail to address behavior and/or disruption, and instead focus on a dispute or on justice, are almost universally declined. New editors often fail to understand that. I am sure that by now, with your history of declined unblock requests, that you understand this. Best of luck with your mentor. ~Amatulić (talk) 20:34, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your helping advice.--Stephfo (talk) 23:00, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Unblock request

Stephfo (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

Request reason:

My reason:Now I believe I really understand that edit warring is not permitted, and that once a rough consensus is established, such as recommendation that further WP:DISPUTE resolution process should involve, e.g. calling a WP:RFC, or making a post on an appropriate noticeboard (e.g. WP:FTN or WP:NPOVN), the best way is to go for that recommendation right away and stay away from article talk discussion. I'm ready and willing to consult future cases with mentor to improve my capabilities in this respect. Likewise, I'm acknowledging I could formulate some of my posts at talk pages in more moderate/civil way so that they would have not earned me a reputation of having battleground mentality and I will try with help of mentor my best to change and respect and implement any of his/her guidance in this regard. My mentor, user:Alpha Quadrant, has been extremely helpful in explaining what is expected of me, and will be an invaluable resource if I ever have a dispute again in the future with a fellow colleague. Thanks in advance for considering my request. Stephfo (talk) 11:08, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Accept reason:

Sounds good to me. I'll leave you in the capable hands of Alpha Quadrant. Best of luck, m.o.p 15:04, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Congratulations!

You will find numerous other editors who do not hold themselves to high standards. Refrain from stooping to their level and you'll do fine. ~Amatulić (talk) 15:41, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Well done, Stephfo! – Lionel 19:32, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for nice wishes, I'll try to do my best.--Stephfo (talk) 21:04, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Nice work on the 5 article edits you have made since your unblock. Alpha_Quadrant 14:56, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Talkback

Alpha_Quadrant 15:22, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Nomination of John Hartnett (physicist) for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article John Hartnett (physicist) is suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages according to Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/John Hartnett (physicist) until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article.Template:Z81   — Jess· Δ♥ 21:10, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

The sourcing on Hartnett is a little thin. You will need to add more sources for this to survive. – Lionel 01:00, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

This help request has been answered. If you need more help or have additional questions, please replace the code {{help me-helped}} on this page with {{help me}}, or contact the responding user(s) directly on their own user talk page.

Pls. advise, my article is nominated for deletion and arguments used wrt. person significance in the creatiosist cosmology field by my opponent sound to me all the way wrong and manipulative. I'd like to learn how can I get independent opinion of community that deals with article on creationism and creation science or creation cosmology or Christianity. Or how to get the debate included in the respective project(s), similarly as someone did for other fields: ("Note: This debate has been included in the list of Australia-related deletion discussions.") Thanx.--Stephfo (talk) 11:11, 20 November 2011 (UTC) I also would like to learn if I as creator of article I do have right to vote in discussion and who is the ultimate authority to close the discussion and make final verdict on article existence, and at what date&time. Thanx--Stephfo (talk) 11:11, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I have added it to the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. You will get independent opinions, because many people spend time looking at these deletion debates and contributing where they think it useful. There is no similar deletion-sorting list for Creationism; there is WP:WikiProject Creationism, and you could post a note on the talk page of that project, but be careful to make it neutral, a notification that the debate exists, not an appeal for people to come and back you up - that would be considered WP:CANVASSing, and canvassing is strongly disapproved of and is usually counter-productive.

As article creator, you may !vote once in the debate: note the ! sign, to be read as "not-vote" because the decision is made not on a count of heads but on the arguments advanced in terms of Misplaced Pages policy. The debate will normally run for seven days (though it may be "relisted" if it seems inconclusive) after which an uninvolved administrator will assess the arguments and make a decision.

Please try not to think in terms of "my opponent". We have a principle of assuming good faith, that everyone is here to improve the encyclopedia, even if we may disagree about how to do that. Regards, JohnCD (talk) 12:10, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

To answer your questions, yes, you can "vote" in the AfD, but you should identify yourself as the creator of the article to avoid charges of conflict of interest. Start out your answer with the words "I am the creator of the article", and you are safe. The pertinent rules are listed in WP:AFD. Most importantly, do not attack or harrass other editors, and assume good faith.

The AfD will be closed by an yet unknown disinterested administrator, ususally seven days after the AfD is opened. If there are not yet enough comments to make a decision, the administrator may relist the AfD for another seven days, at which point another disinterested administrator will close it.

In both the AfD and the discussion at Intelligent Design, you have fallen back into the same bad habits that got you indefinitely blocked. To accuse another editor of being "manipulative" or seeking "revenge" is a violation of WP:AGF and WP:NPA. And to characterize other editors as your "opponents" is a poor approach to editing on WP (see: WP:BATTLEGROUND).

Carrying on deadhorse arguments and demanding that other editors answer questions they have already answered repeatedly is disruptive and unlikely to contribute to establishing consensus (see: WP:DEADHORSE and WP:DE). Argumentum ad nauseam is a sure-fire way of driving consensus away from your viewpoint. In the Intelligent Design discussion, you made 31 posts in a period of only 10 hours. This indicates that you are not taking the time to read and understand the posts of the other editors. The other editors and I have been VERY nice to you, and you are expected to return the favor.

You have made some very combative edit summaries like "Weird argument", "Bias", "Odd Q", "Double-dealing", "Fixes after vandalism" and "Deletion as revenge", and have made lots of comments attributing bad faith to other editors in your talk page comments. If you continue doing so, you will soon end up indefinitely blocked again.

Frankly, Stephfo, your knowledge of creationism-related topics is very limited and uninformed, and so is your knowledge and understanding of WP policies. The creationism-related articles are probably not an area of WP that you constructively contribute to until you learn a lot more about the topic and get a lot more experience editing non-controversial articles as you have been doing since your return. You have a lot to learn, and editing on controversial topics is the worst place to do that, as your mentor has already told you. You should have a very serious discussion about your behavior on the AfD and the Intelligent Design article. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 12:52, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I apologize for any inconvenience, but I regard word opponent for neutral without any pejorative context, stemming simply from the simple fact that somebody is opposing my edit as it was already explained in the past. In my region it is often used for per-reviewer of some rigorous papers and it is impossible to attribute to such person a battleground mentality intentions. I regard your reaction for manipulative because your pattern of behaviour is such that you ignore my arguments and just keep harping on your assertions, for example, if I ask you to enlist creationist cosmologist that are in your opinion ranked above Hartnett, you arrogantly start to pretend as if this question would never been raised and keep asserting he is creationist cosmologist of 3rd tier at the very best. I classify such behaviour as manipulative, and I apologize for any inconvenience in that respect.

As for my knowledge, frankly, I doubt you ever had any book you are discussing in hand (I do dare say I did), and from this perspective your effort to move attention from actual topic to my persona is a clearly argument Ad hominem. Should you have problem finding policy where it is explained why it is wrong, let me know, I can navigate you. Thanx --Stephfo (talk) 13:06, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I've left a message on your mentor's page for him to have a long talk with you about this. I advise you not to do ANYTHING on WP until you do. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 13:23, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Sorry but bearing in mind that my article is nominated for deletion you effectively are denying my rights to defend my work and react on objections raised, and advising me just passively witness my article to be deleted. As for ID, I do not have problem to go for 3rd party mediator should you declare the failure of dispute resolution from your site. As for ID, I do declare that whether I like it or not, I can enlist number of Qs that had been just ignored and I'm able to defend my position in this respect should the 3rd party mediator join the dispute. Ignoring questions classifies in my understanding as arrogance, not nice behaviour, I apologize for that. --Stephfo (talk) 14:22, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

No. I am not denying you anything, nor am I suggesting anything of the sort. I advised you to discuss things with your mentor before making any moves. There is no hurry. The AfD will not be closed for another four days, so you will have time to consult them and vote. My advice was given so that you could avoid doing anything that will lead to another block. You can take it or leave it, for all it's worth.

There is no dispute for a third party mediator to resolve. I've made my case very clear on the talk page. I've answered your objections in exhaustive detail. That's the end of the matter for me.

Take my advice, and do yourself a BIG favor by discussing this with your mentor ASAP. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 14:46, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

This help request has been answered. If you need more help or have additional questions, please replace the code {{help me-helped}} on this page with {{help me}}, or contact the responding user(s) directly on their own user talk page.

I'm threaten to get blocked, I'd like to ask whether it is up to WP standards to make such threats, from my perspective I perceive it as escape from using arguments in discussion and applying Argumentum ad Baculum instead. I'd like to learn whether it is regarded as legitimate for user to make such threats towards other fellow users and whether I'm obliged to refrain from editing at WP after such threat as it is suggested. Thanx.--Stephfo (talk) 15:08, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I do not see a threat there, but a warning and advice. You were unblocked after repeated blocks for WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour, on your assurance that you understood the problem and would try, with your mentor's help, to change. It is not unreasonable to remind you that the block may be reimposed if you do not in fact change your behaviour, and to advise you to consult that mentor; unless actually blocked, you are not obliged to refrain from editing, but it would be prudent to consider the advice you have been given. JohnCD (talk) 15:49, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the deletion discussion, it has established that the subject doesn't meet the academic notability guidelines. Continuing to argue that the subject does won't get anywhere, because it has already been demonstrated that the article fails the guideline. The subject appears to meet the general notability guidelines based on the current coverage. In order to establish a strong argument for this, more sourcing is needed. Right now, there is possibility that the subject is notable. It has not been clearly established. As an example, I currently haven't commented further in the deletion discussion, as I have not found such coverage to lay out a strong argument. If I were to continue arguing on a weak argument, the discussion won't get anywhere.

I know I have suggested this earlier, and I'd really like to emphasize this now. I strongly suggest you refrain from editing creation/evolution articles for the time being. As you don't have a strong grasp on Misplaced Pages policies yet, you are encountering issues on these often controversial articles. There are over 3,000,000 other articles on much less controversial topics. Editing those articles to gain experience and policy knowledge will be quite beneficial. After you gain more experience, then by all means, you can edit the topic. Right now, due to your lack of policy knowledge and strong feelings for the topic, your actions are being viewed as disruptive. If this continues, it is quite likely that you will be blocked again, or a topic ban may be imposed. I am trying to help you avoid either events. You can choose to ignore my advice, but be aware that it may result in additional problems for you. Alpha_Quadrant 17:47, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm not arguing in direction of PROF notability, but in creationist cosmologies perspective, as I already mentioned in discussion.

I'm very open person and able to admit mistakes, but if someone only accuses me in general terms and is not able to explain which policy applies to accept assertion that, for example, my question what is the difference between creative super-intelligence and intelligent agent was answered, then I'm not able to understand such accusations. Please advise why it is regarded to be WP policy to pretend that some Q was answered if that answer is nowhere to be found. Did Dominus answered that there is difference between creative super-intelligence and intelligent agent or did he answer that there is not? Or should I go against my own conscience because it is requirement of WP policy and accept that there is something wrong with me when I cannot find what his answer was? Thanks in advance for kind explanation. --Stephfo (talk) 20:24, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

You argued WP:PROF in the discussion. In this diff, you cited it three times. Information in Misplaced Pages articles need to be verifiable in reliable third party sources. Information that cannot be verified is considered original research, and should be removed. This means that information in articles isn't always "true". When writing articles, you need to stick to writing in a neutral point of view and refrain from letting your personal opinions affect the way you write articles. As I have said above, you seem to have a strong opinion on creation/evolution articles. It really isn't the best way for you to gain understanding of policy. Alpha_Quadrant 17:20, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for explanation, "I'm not arguing in direction of PROF notability" was meant that I do not regard the fact that he is professor for being important and worth of notice at all, but for things he is doing with sapphire clocks (side issue, but still interesting, and I do not care whether he is doing it as professor or what-ever else) and major argument is in line of theories he is presenting like solution for starlight travel problem as creationist. Which information cannot be verified in your opinion and which do you ascribe to me as "my strong opinion" out of NPOV? What's wrong with these sources: ? --Stephfo (talk) 18:40, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Your edit a few days ago to Intelligent design was fairly non-neutral. Your response on the talk page suggests that you have a strong opinion on the subject. Similar issues appear to have occurred on the Big Bang article. Regarding sourcing, a source needs to be completely independent of the subject and have a strong reputation for fact checking in order to be considered a reliable source. Alpha_Quadrant 19:36, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Wilhelm Busch (priest)

If this is the first article that you have created, you may want to read the guide to writing your first article.

You may want to consider using the Article Wizard to help you create articles.

A tag has been placed on Wilhelm Busch (priest) requesting that it be speedily deleted from Misplaced Pages. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a person or group of people, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, contest the deletion by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion". Doing so will take you to the talk page where you will find a pre-formatted place for you to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, you can contact one of these administrators to request that the administrator userfy the page or email a copy to you.   — Jess· Δ♥ 21:25, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

This help request has been answered. If you need more help, you can ask another question on your talk page, contact the responding user(s) directly on their user talk page, or consider visiting the Teahouse.

Pls. help me, my articles one of which is basically based on German WP is nominated for deletion, what should I do and why it is acceptable there in? As well as in other national WPs?--Stephfo (talk) 22:07, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Hi Stephfo. I looked at the article (I assume it's the one heading up this section about speedy deletion) and saw that it contains a claim of notability, which renders the speedy deletion tag invalid. I removed the speedy deletion tag. If anyone wants it deleted, they will have to go through the standard WP:AFD process.

As to your question: Each Misplaced Pages is independent and each has its own critiera for inclusion. An article that's acceptable on the German Misplaced Pages may not merit inclusion here, and vice versa. The controlling document on en-Wiki is Misplaced Pages:Notability. In there you will find links to other documents detailing inclusion criteria for people, music ensembles, companies, etc. ~Amatulić (talk) 22:16, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Deletion discussion about Wilhelm Busch (priest)

Hello, Stephfo, and thanks for contributing to Misplaced Pages!

I wanted to let you know that some editors are discussing at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Wilhelm Busch (priest) whether the article Wilhelm Busch (priest) should be in Misplaced Pages. I encourage you to comment there if you think the article should be kept in the encyclopedia.

The deletion discussion doesn't mean you did something wrong. In fact, other editors may have useful suggestions on how you can continue editing and improving Wilhelm Busch (priest), which I encourage you to do. If you have any questions, feel free to ask at the Help Desk.

Thanks again for your contributions! Template:Z82   — Jess· Δ♥ 22:54, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

I view this act of yours as a revenge for dispute we had at the ID article, at least the specific timing from which on you are proposing these articles for deletion, i.e. just after the encounter we had there suggest so. I'd like to ask some independent editor if we could take into consideration this fact when evaluating your increased activity in relation to my articles (promoting their deletions). I know it is not very good faith assumption, but it is extremely hard to believe it was just coincidence. --Stephfo (talk) 23:00, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Hi Stephfo. This isn't "revenge" for anything. If you'll notice, I'm still quite civilly discussing things with you where our domains have intersected. However, after I saw some problems come up on the ID article, I took a glance at your contrib history, and happened to notice your first article creation. Out of genuine interest, I read over the article, and made a few positive changes to it, even added a reference where I was able to track one down. However, I also noticed a possible copyvio problem, and that the article (AFAICT) quite clearly doesn't meet the general notability guidelines after searching for sources for some time. Since I noticed there were obvious issues there, I went back to your contrib list to see if you'd created any other articles recently that had similar problems, and I was able to find this one. This isn't anything personal, and I'd encourage you not to take it that way. If you can find reliable, independent sources for these two bios, I'd very happily withdraw the nominations. Indeed, creating articles for notable people who are not yet covered on wikipedia is a great thing, and I'd encourage you to continue... just, ensure they meet WP:N first.

Now, with that all said, I'd ask you to read through WP:VAND, as labeling good faith contributions from another user as "vandalism" is very strongly frowned upon, and has frequently gotten users in trouble in the past. Doing so here, in reference to my copyedits and addition of a reference (which clearly does not qualify), is not helpful. As always, if you have questions about anything, I'm happy to help out. All the best,   — Jess· Δ♥ 23:12, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Pls. note I regard your changes for act of vandalism, your removed from article reference to book that is one of the most notable for given person, you removed the quote even WP provides tools for quotes and many other articles are using this tools and demonstarbly contain various quotes. What for is tool for quotes if in your opinion it should not be used?--Stephfo (talk) 23:15, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Please read WP:VAND as I suggested. None of the things you describe are vandalism. Individual quotes are fine, but "Quote sections" are generally frowned upon, as with trivia. See, for instance, WP:NOTDIR.   — Jess· Δ♥ 23:26, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

I disagree with you, quotations make biographical articles more attractive for reader and not so dreadfully facto-graphic.--Stephfo (talk) 23:35, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Again, this isn't about quotations. It's about entire sections devoted to quotations. I'm not debating my opinions, I'm only describing the general attitude editors have had to quotation sections on other articles. If you disagree with that precedent, you could always take the issue up at the village pump and get a broader opinion.   — Jess· Δ♥ 23:57, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

I'd like to ask you if you declare in weasel words "Since I noticed there were obvious issues there" why you have failed to mention the single one on the article discussion pages? Are these issues using stealth technology? --Stephfo (talk) 00:20, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Because I either resolved them myself, or (in the case of the notability concern) I could not, and indicated as much in the AfD nominations. Typically, when you run across a brand new article which is missing sources, you should search for them yourself. However, if after an extensive search you're unable to turn up anything, the right thing to do is propose the article for deletion in accordance with WP:N. Then, one of two things will happen: editors will find sources you missed and correct the article, or they will be unable to, and the article will be (rightly) deleted. That's what happened here. When I discovered the articles were improperly sourced, and after searching extensively to meet WP:N, I was forced to conclude the articles do not meet our notability guidelines, and per policy, I nominated them for deletion. Obviously, you're welcome to find sources which solve this problem now. If you can get them to meet WP:N, the AfD nominations will fail, and the articles will (rightly) stay. However, the fact is that if they don't meet WP:N, then the community has decided that they don't belong on wikipedia. That has nothing to do with you personally... it's just how our policies work.   — Jess· Δ♥ 00:33, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

I apologize for any inconvenience (it might sound less civil but I cannot betray my conscience), but this is pure hypocrisy, WP keeps many articles as stubs for very extensive periods of time w/o any proposition for deletion, you are using just weasel words and general descriptions without challenging anything in particular so that at the end you can declare anything you like and delete the article, an act for which you are preparing your position. If issue is not mentioned in particular, it cannot be fixed or improved. Both articles have cited sources, apart from those that you removed by self-made claims.--Stephfo (talk) 00:48, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

By the way, the tone of some of your recent posts (here, here and here) is noticeably more civil. I appreciate the efforts you're making to this end. Keep it up. Those three are a marked improvement. :)   — Jess· Δ♥ 00:41, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

....But this is a lot worse. Calling out the religious convictions of other editors is out of line. Please see WP:PA. That sort of comment has no place in the discussion. If you have a problem with another editor, take it to a noticeboard.   — Jess· Δ♥ 00:45, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

THanks for advise, I will try to do my best.--Stephfo (talk) 00:50, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

By the way, it was not PA but rather reflection of reality that whether I like it or not, people who support atheistic position in article are strongly biased, first they oppose the edit if they do not know its origin, and when they learn that it was by atheist used in favor of atheist article, the very same text suddenly miraculously turns into acceptable one, no problems whatsoever. That's just observation of fact, no attack. --Stephfo (talk) 00:53, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it's a personal attack. DO NOT speculate on the religious beliefs of others. DO NOT assume someone is atheist just because they don't promote a Christian viewpoint. DO NOT assume neutrality is "atheistic" just because it lacks a religious bias. It may surprise you, but you may find that many of those participants in the dispute are not atheists. The contradiction that you insist exists has been explained to you repeatedly. Disagreement with you does not automatically imply anything about the religious beliefs of others. ~Amatulić (talk) 01:11, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

One of the objections was that "attributing the second source to New Atheists when atheism isn't even mentioned other than in the bibliography and keywords" - when discovered that source and text is actually from New Atheism, it is no problem any more, why?--Stephfo (talk) 01:27, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Who says it isn't a problem? If you see a problem, fix it. Not all of us have ample time on our hands. I spend a few minutes per day here and there, and can't monitor every article on Misplaced Pages. Just because something exists in one article isn't an argument to put it in another article. If I have a good hour or so free, I will dig into it further. Before today, I didn't even know that New Atheism existed (and I appreciate you pointing it out). ~Amatulić (talk) 01:47, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Let's say you're right. It's still out of line to speculate on the religious convictions of other editors. You will end up blocked if that behavior continues. This is the last time I'm going to repeat this: If you have a problem with another editor, take it to a noticeboard.   — Jess· Δ♥ 01:47, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

I believe you have well noticed that from your first time you have brought this issue I have not violate your advice IMHO so that your sentence "the last time I'm going to repeat this" comes somewhat odd. --Stephfo (talk) 03:02, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)WP:PA's notice to "comment on content, not on contributers" still applies. Commenting on the religious convictions of other editors is always inappropriate. Please don't do it again. If you have problems with editor conduct, you can take it to a noticeboard, like WP:ANI.   — Jess· Δ♥ 01:18, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

I apologize for that but I regard the sudden changes in questioning article sources in dependence on knowledge who the author is for EXTREMELY BIASED and it is very difficult to accept such treatment. I'm acknowledging there is room for improvement in my ability to come to grips with such methods.--Stephfo (talk) 01:21, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

It's a good step that you can recognize there's room for improvement and work towards that. One way you can do that is to take the advice of other, more experienced editors when they offer it. I'd suggest speaking to your mentor about some of these issues, and asking him for impartial advice. I imagine he'll make the same recommendations we have, but working with him to address this sort of problem would be helpful.   — Jess· Δ♥ 01:47, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Nice job on the article. I have a feeling this will survive--but it needs inline cites. Next time you ceate an article I'd like to strongly recommend that you get recognition for your work. You can do so by nominating your new article here: WP:DYK. TTFN – Lionel 00:59, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Hello Stephfo, regarding the discussion at Talk:Intelligent design discussing your edit to the article, I have a few observations. The edit you made contained several non-neutral words. For example, you added "...and many scientists are investigating...". The use of "many" is unspecific, and implies that there are a large number of scientists working on the project. (if there is a good number of scientists working on this, approximately how many?) The information you added to the lead isn't discussed later in the article. In order to include the information in the lead section, it needs to be discussed later on. I would also suggest that you use additional sourcing. Several reliable third party sources are preferable, as they help establish proper weight. As the edit was disputed, it would be best if you proposed similar changes on the talk page before making them. Regarding Mann jess's suggestion to take user issues to noticeboards, I can't say I fully agree. Noticeboards should only be used after all other alternatives have been exhausted. If you have a problem with another editor's conduct, the first thing you should try and do is calmly bring it up on their talk page. If that doesn't work, you can consider asking an uninvolved editor for assistance. Usually an uninvolved party can help resolve the issue. If not, it can be taken to Wikiquette assistance, the dispute resolution noticeboard, or a similar noticeboard. The Administrators' noticeboard and ANI should only be used if administrative action is needed. I have tagged both of the article you wrote for rescue. From a quick Google search, there appears to be a good amount of coverage. Best, Alpha_Quadrant 05:37, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Just to be clear, my suggestion to take issues to a noticeboard was in reference to this comment, which Stephfo defended by claiming there had been misconduct on the part of numerous editors on the page. My intention was to explain that such comments were not appropriate, and that if Stephfo believed there was an issue with editor misconduct, then he should bring that misconduct up at a noticeboard, rather than inject religious accusations on the talk page. I stand by that suggestion. Quite obviously, I agree that noticeboards should be used in only appropriate circumstances, my intention was not to say otherwise, but to indicate that making such comments for any reason was not acceptable, and that other avenues were available. You are correct that WP:DR is another one of those avenues.   — Jess· Δ♥ 05:54, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. I agree that it is vital comments be kept on the content issues, rather than contributers. Issues regarding other editors should be brought up on the editor's talk page, not on the article talk page. If that doesn't resolve the issue, dispute resolution may be needed. I just wanted to make it clear that AN (or specifically ANI) should not be used for dispute resolution. It has been (and is) used for this purpose. With that said, ANI usually causes more harm than good. There are more viable dispute resolution methods that don't cause near as much drama. Alpha_Quadrant 06:21, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

John Hartnett (physicist)

I have removed the research interests section because it was copied and pasted from here... http://internal.physics.uwa.edu.au/~john/ All content should be in your own words.Theroadislong (talk) 20:13, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

This help request has been answered. If you need more help, you can ask another question on your talk page, contact the responding user(s) directly on their user talk page, or consider visiting the Teahouse.

I'd like to learn opinion of independent editor as it is not possible to come up with research interests completely independent from actual ones, and the copy was not 1:1 and at least few items has been modified.--Stephfo (talk) 20:18, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

I'll let someone else answer this so I won't cancel the help tag. My opinion is that the material should be included in the article, and I agree it's hard to reproduce a short bullet list in different words than the original. And I hardly think that Dr. Hartnett would object to its duplication, although Misplaced Pages couldn't reproduce it without permission from him. My only suggestion would be to get rid of the bullet list format and change it to a sentence, "His research interests include....". ~Amatulić (talk) 20:26, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

I've added them back in sentence form.Theroadislong (talk) 20:39, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

November 2011

Hi, and thank you for your contributions to Misplaced Pages. It appears that you recently tried to give Wilhelm Busch (priest) a different title by copying its content and pasting either the same content, or an edited version of it, into another page with a different name. This is known as a "cut and paste move", and it is undesirable because it splits the page history, which is needed for attribution and various other purposes. Instead, the software used by Misplaced Pages has a feature that allows pages to be moved to a new title together with their edit history.

In most cases, once your account is four days old and has ten edits, you should be able to move an article yourself using the "Move" tab at the top of the page. This both preserves the page history intact and automatically creates a redirect from the old title to the new. If you cannot perform a particular page move yourself this way (e.g. because a page already exists at the target title), please follow the instructions at requested moves to have it moved by someone else. Also, if there are any other pages that you moved by copying and pasting, even if it was a long time ago, please list them at Misplaced Pages:Cut and paste move repair holding pen. Thank you. Theroadislong (talk) 12:30, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

This help request has been answered. If you need more help, you can ask another question on your talk page, contact the responding user(s) directly on their user talk page, or consider visiting the Teahouse.

There is no indication whether any specific action is needed from me to achieve for implementation of consensus on renaming Wilhelm Busch (priest) to Wilhelm Busch (pastor) (i.e. consensus) and in the meantime another editor moved the content from (pastor) where I paste it (copy from "priest") to (clergyman) instead and declares an administrator is required to get it onto Wilhelm Busch (pastor) page where it belongs (as a result of consensus). Please advise. My understanding is that the above text on moving articles is generic guidance for future (I'm not aware of any other WP pages that I would copy&paste and this one priest --> pastor you are aware of) and that no specific action is required from me. Q: Is there anything required from me to achieve renaming former article under "Wilhelm Busch (priest)", currently already under name "Wilhelm Busch (clergyman)", to end up under the name "Wilhelm Busch (pastor)", what was the broad consensus reached? Some editors seem to advise an Administrator intervention is required to achieve for that while making references to above text at my talk page what makes impression as if I should somehow initiate that action, please advise. Thanx.--Stephfo (talk) 23:37, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I've informed Jess of the situation. Remain patient. You don't have to do anything. Amantulic said he would take care of the move for you. I will tell Jess to contact Amantulic. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 00:19, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Dominus.

Please read this I can't explain it any simpler than this?Theroadislong (talk) 22:23, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

But the nomination for AfD was withdrawn. Pls read:

:Yup, that's what I'm waiting for. I withdrew the nomination, so whenever an admin gets to it. — Jess· Δ♥ 21:53, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

If there's a clear consensus that keeping the article is not controversial, you don't need an admin. As the nominator you can close your own AfD if you withdraw it. ~Amatulić (talk) 22:55, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

(emphasis mine) --Stephfo (talk) 22:30, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I give upTheroadislong (talk) 22:33, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Welcome to Misplaced Pages. It might not have been your intention, but your recent edit removed content from John Hartnett (physicist). When removing content, please specify a reason in the edit summary and discuss edits that are likely to be controversial on the article's talk page. If this was a mistake, don't worry; the content has been restored, as you can see from the page history. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia, and if you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. Thank you. Theroadislong (talk) 21:32, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry I do not understand your point, all these things are properly explained as you are requiring at all places you're referring to. Thanx.--Stephfo (talk) 21:38, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Big Bang

I explained the revert in the edit summary. Non-scholarly sources were used, which we can't use, and criticism sections are discouraged on wikipedia. I don't really know what else I'm supposed to say. New Scientist is your only scholarly source, but the citation does not support the statement.Farsight001 (talk) 02:00, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Are you trolling me or something? I DID explain the reasons for the revert in the edit summary. I again explained it just above. There's nothing more to say. I did EXACTLY what I was supposed to do. If you don't like it, discuss it on that article's talk page and perhaps garner a 3rd opinion. There's really nothing more I can say. I referred to the relevant policies and I explained how your edits didn't line up. I literally did exactly what you claim I did not, so I really don't know what else I'm supposed to do.Farsight001 (talk) 16:54, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

If possible, please respond to my Qs at your talk page where I initiated the discussion, otherwise it is difficult to keep the track. Thanks.--Stephfo (talk) 17:15, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

There's nothing else to say. Your questions were answered before they were even asked. I don't know what else someone is supposed to say.Farsight001 (talk) 17:18, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Right. Well let me start of with saying I will not be corresponding with you anymore on my or your talk page. I mentioned relevant policies. I explained the reason for the removal. Simply stating to me that I did not do these things does not make it true. You are using WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, and I really don't want to bother with someone who won't listen. So as you ignore what I type, I, too, will ignore what you type. Bye.Farsight001 (talk) 17:52, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

That's really very weird, to declare you have mentioned policies when you demonstrably have not state a single one.--Stephfo (talk) 17:56, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Stephfo, if I may butt in here.... He did state the policies. WP:RS ("non scholarly sources were used") and WP:CRITICISM ("criticism sections are discouraged") are both mentioned in the second sentence of this section. While WP:CRITICISM isn't actually a policy or guideline, it has wide community acceptance. Don't expect everyone to provide you with links to policies that are well known and obvious. Repeatedly demanding answers to questions that have already been answered isn't exactly collaborative. If someone has answered you twice already and you still don't understand the answer, it may be best to ask your mentor for help. ~Amatulić (talk) 18:10, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I beg your pardon, but I completely missed the explanation why, for example, a WP:RS should apply onto given text if all of it was coming from scholars that have established a distinctive articles in WP and why New Scientist should be considered a non-scholar source.--Stephfo (talk) 18:52, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Stephfo, no one said any of that. In fact, Farsight said exactly the opposite in his first reply. "New Scientist is your only scholarly source, but the citation does not support the statement." Stop. Take a break, and compose your thoughts before responding to this discussion any further. Right now, you're not reading or understanding what other editors are saying to you, and it's causing everyone you interact with to become frustrated or angry. That's going to lead to you being blocked again for disruption. Take a breather, and talk about this with your mentor.   — Jess· Δ♥ 18:57, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

You are welcome to talk with my mentor should you have any particular problems with me. I do not have problems with it. Thanks.--Stephfo (talk) 20:34, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Right, WP:RS applies to the other source you used, not New Scientist.

Stephfo, pardon me for asking this, but after seeing several exchanges like this from you, I have to ask: Is English your native language? This question has occurred to me because I have seen multiple instances where an answer given to you seems clear but for some reason you give the impression of ignoring it, or misunderstanding it. If you are not accustomed to conversing in English, that might explain the difficulties you seem to be having here. ~Amatulić (talk) 19:01, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I apologize for any inconvenience, but if you drop yourself to the very bottom of the WP:DR pyramid and start using Ad hominem argument, I have to ask you the very same Q: do you understand the meaning of sentence "Pls. note neither of the sources was non-scholarly. All inputs were from reliable scholarly sources that have even established articles at WP, just have a look if you do not believe: Fred Hoyle, Halton Arp, Jayant Narlikar,Hermann Bondi, Eric Lerner etc. I cannot imagine more scholar source."? Pls. stay cool and avoid personal attacks ("Do not make personal attacks anywhere in Misplaced Pages. Comment on content, not on the contributor."). I can assure you I understand very well and as a matter of fact anybody can verify whether a policy allegedly violated was clearly stated or not and rationale why these aforementioned scholars should be regarded as non-scholars. Thanks for you understanding. Pls. let me know whether you advise to go for WP:RSN or what is your point. I believe you also understand if the second source signed by all these scholars reads "(Published in New Scientist, May 22, 2004)" what that means in term of verifiability.--Stephfo (talk) 19:48, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm reaching my last straw too... Those comments are not personal attacks. Please read WP:PA carefully. You may go to WP:RSN. Before you do, please read this conversation again. You do not understand the problem. RSN can't help you with this problem. We are trying to help you here. Is English your first language? You do not need to answer that question if you don't want to. If you answer that question, we can help you more. Please talk to your mentor about the problems you're having communicating with other users.   — Jess· Δ♥ 20:10, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

That's exactly what I'm doing: Comment on content, not on the contributor.

"Is English your native language?" - in my reading it relates to contributor, pls. advise, in yours to content?

"Ad hominem: Attacks the characteristics or authority of the writer w/o addressing the substance of the argument"

"Is English your native language?" => Ad hominem: Attacks the characteristics or authority of the writer

w/o addressing the substance of the argument => Fred Hoyle, Halton Arp, Jayant Narlikar,Hermann Bondi, Eric Lerner notable by wikipedia are allegedly non-scholars; NRK alias Norwegian BBC should not be reliable source etc.

Fine, you seem managed to cool down and return the discussion from editor to content, that's great! Thank you.--Stephfo (talk) 20:34, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Sorry Stephfo, but you are incorrect.

What part of "non scholarly sources were used" in at the beginning of this section do you not understand?

What part of "criticism sections are discouraged" do you not understand?

What part of "New Scientist is your only scholarly source" do you not understand?

What part of "The citation does not support the statement" do you not understand?

What leads you to believe that a non-notable petition signed by a tiny number of scientists (who appear to be non-notable) is meaningful, and a reliable source for any claims? Have you looked at WP:FRINGE?

What leads you to believe that a non-notable documentary film is a reliable source? What part of WP:FRINGE do you not understand?

The fact is, you inserted three sources: New Scientist is scholarly, the question is whether you misrepresented it. You also inserted a link to a petition, and a link to a non-notable film. These things have been pointed out to you repeatedly, and you have failed to understand the answers, hence my question, which was an honest attempt to understand your difficulty. You are correct, WP:RSN can help, but I recommend you read WP:FRINGE first.

Please succinctly describe what you are having trouble understanding and I or someone else will be happy to explain it to you. ~Amatulić (talk) 20:17, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure if you are interested in answer any more, as you seem to participate in ANI case against me, but basically I provided 3 sources, one of them is New Scienist, 2nd points to the very same source, i.e. New Scientist and is signed by academical people mentioned in discussion and above and recognized by WP as notable scholars worth of having dedicated articles and 3rd source is documentary by Norwegian national TV named NRK where there are mostly the same above scholars with established articles at WP being interviewed or otherwise participating in documentary. Thus I really didn't get it with which source out of these three do you question and why you refer to alleged "tiny number of scientists" as "who appear to be non-notable" if WP clearly proves otherwise (=> Fred Hoyle, Halton Arp, Jayant Narlikar,Hermann Bondi, Eric Lerner)? That's really weird argument. To summarize your Qs:

Add.1:What part of "non scholarly sources were used" in at the beginning of this section do you not understand? - I do not understand why the verifiable source that points to New Scientist is labelled as non-scholarly as the very same article that it points to is regarded as scholarly, an on top of this there is a great number of scientist signed below it who are recognized by WP as scholarly.

Add.2:What part of "criticism sections are discouraged" do you not understand? -> I do not understand why I can find multiple articles with criticism sections while here it should be a edit-stopper. Anyway, should this be the only problem, it is not difficult to rename the section to something not making references to criticism.

Add.3: What part of "New Scientist is your only scholarly source" do you not understand? -see Add.1 about the reference of 2nd source to the very same article and New Scientist ("Published in New Scientist, May 22, 2004") --> i.e. Verifiable

Add.4: :What part of "The citation does not support the statement" do you not understand? --> I do not understand how the text taken from that article and case reported by documentary cannot support the given statement.

Add.5: :What leads you to believe that a non-notable petition signed by a tiny number of scientists (who appear to be non-notable) is meaningful, and a reliable source for any claims? Have you looked at WP:FRINGE? --> The very fact that people who signed it have established pages at WP, i.e. that are recognized as notable (Fred Hoyle, Halton Arp, Jayant Narlikar,Hermann Bondi, Eric Lerner) as well as the fact that the very same source is already present and used at WP.

Add.6: :What leads you to believe that a non-notable documentary film is a reliable source? --> The very fact that it was done by NRK, Norwegian National TV that has reputation on the level of BBC and that people there in are recognized by WP as notable.

Add.7: :What part of WP:FRINGE do you not understand? -> I'm not aware I would declare anything like that, but the authors concerned have their theories at WP: plasma cosmology, steady-state cosmology, that means you either must be wrong, or WP is publishing WP:FRINGE.

Add.8: I'm happy we can agree WP:RSN can help without the need to continue attacking me. I suggest in future this to be one of your first suggestion prior to making such long attacks, something like: "Although I disagree with your sources, pls. feel free to verify their acceptability via WP:RSN. Should they be accepted there, they will be fine with me as well.". Thanks a lot for your understanding. --Stephfo (talk) 22:30, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Christian terrorism

I have restored your edit with all it's faults. I don't have the energy to argue.Theroadislong (talk) 19:38, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I looked over that discussion and contributed. Stephfo, as a reminder - I know this has been pointed out on multiple occasions now - do not label other users' contributions as vandalism that do not meet WP:VAND. That is a serious problem. Please stop doing it.   — Jess· Δ♥ 19:58, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Stephfo, please do not make any more article edits until the current concerns by other editors have been addressed. followed by is edit warring. Restoring your changes without discussion given the current discussion on this talk page is not a good idea. Editors can, and have been blocked in the past for fewer than three reverts. Alpha_Quadrant 20:18, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I apologize for any inconvenience, but this action of mine has appropriately explained reason in the edit summary where it is explicitly stated that I'm reverting the previous deletion because the reason provided as "not being reflected anywhere in the article" is in blatant contradiction with reality and thus is false ("not being reflected anywhere in the article" ->false-> Christian attitude to terrorism). If someone wants to start discussion at talk page, then he/she should initiate such discussion at talk page clearly stating the topic and not delete edits by making false accusations that have nothing to do with reality, IMHO.--Stephfo (talk) 16:32, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Stephfo, you've received requests from multiple editors, including your mentor, to stop making changes to articles until concerns have been addressed. Per this comment, it appears you have refused to do that. This is one last request to stop and speak to your mentor, and to address the numerous issues other editors have brought to your attention. If you can't agree to do that, I plan to take this back to WP:ANI. I know you're active on-wiki now, so I'd appreciate it if you could respond to this soon with your intentions. Just a quick "yes" or "no", would be fine. Thanks.   — Jess· Δ♥ 20:48, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

ANI Notice

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.   — Jess· Δ♥ 21:23, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Regarding this, yes you can argue against other user's claims. However, it is usually best to let other editors do that for you. Alpha Quadrant (alt) 16:27, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

File:Kristina Royova.png needs authorship information.

The media file you uploaded as File:Kristina Royova.png appears to be missing information as to its authorship (and or source), or if you did provide such information, it is confusing for others trying to make use of the image.

It would be appreciated if you would consider updating the file description page, to make the authorship of the media clearer.

Although some images may not need author information in obvious cases, (such where an applicable source is provided),authorship information aids users of the image, and helps ensure that appropriate credit is given (a requirement of some licenses).

• If you created this media yourself, please consider explicitly including your user name, for which:{{subst:usernameexpand|Stephfo}} will produce an appropriate expansion,
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Back the hell off

Hello I think you may be confusing the meaning of this expression. It was said in your support and it is basically a request to "leave you alone" or "stop criticizing you or telling you what to do" Hope this helps. RegardsTheroadislong (talk) 19:35, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Hello, Thanks for explanation, However, why he then asked to delete that message "Sorry 'bout that, feel free to delete this, my mistake." right after reading:

• "(1) Kindly get your sorry butt "the hell off" my user talk. (2) If you want somebody to "back off" I would suggest you address yourself to Stephfo, who initiated this fiasco. Hrafn_Stalk 12:31, 19 October 2011 (UTC)"

Was he interested to support me by advising to leave me alone and later designated advice "to leave me alone" as mistake and that's why asked for deletion of that message? Was it mistake to advise stop criticizing me? If he was genuinely interested to support me, why he did not stand up for his support but requested to delete it? Pls. explain. Thanx --Stephfo (talk) 19:54, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

You will have to ask him that, I have no idea.Theroadislong (talk) 20:02, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

OK, and from where did you know that "It was said in your support and it is basically a request to "leave you alone" or "stop criticizing you or telling you what to do", did you ask him about that? --Stephfo (talk) 20:11, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

To be clear, I was asking you, Stephfo, to back off. To stop doing what you were doing. I am sorry to you for the confusion, I have apologized separately to Hrafn. I hope this clears things up, and again, I am sorry for the confusion. Dbrodbeck (talk) 20:15, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

My apologies I was wrong in my interpretation!!Theroadislong (talk) 20:19, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Then I'm confused even more, "Theroadislong" assures the phrase means that you supported me and asked Hrafn to leave me alone, you declare you were asking me to leave Hrafn alone. That's quite blurry dual interpretation of the very same sentence...OK, Hrafn's explanation prevails, but then it is at least demonstration that even people who declare to be superior in English are able to interpret the very same thing differently. Thanks for explanation. --Stephfo (talk) 20:22, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

I think it demonstrates that my wording was, perhaps, unclear. It was not intended to be of course. Now that you know what I meant, I imagine we can move on right? Dbrodbeck (talk) 20:27, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Well,it depends in what direction, I hope you do not mean I should "Back the hell off" = back off from Misplaced Pages entirely, if you de-facto suggested that I should not have a right to question Hrafns accusations of me to be a disruptive editor just because I questioned a controversial claim that was not backed up with in-line citation, at least the one he asserted it is there had no such content whatsoever. I hope I might have some say if I deem something to be inappropriate. --Stephfo (talk) 20:34, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Move on, to other things. That is all I meant, there was no other intention. Dbrodbeck (talk) 20:41, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanx a LOT for expressing your good-faith intentions. --Stephfo (talk) 20:45, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Topic Banned

FYI: -FASTILY 23:49, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your information, however I totally fail to understand based on what I was found guilty and what my actual guilt is. If you could comment I would very much appreciate it. If possible, I'd like to ask you to inform me what are my possibilities to appeal this block. Thanks a lot in advance!--Stephfo (talk) 00:30, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

You aren't blocked from editing, you are just not permitted to edit the topic areas of creation, evolution, and articles critical of Christianity. The topic ban will automatically expire in 6 months. So on May 29, 2012 you can edit in the topic area again. The topic ban discussion decided that it would be better for you to learn policy outside of the contentious area. It didn't necessarily "find you guilty" of anything. The discussion just decided that, in order to avoid further problems, it would be best for you to avoid the topic for the time being. Alpha_Quadrant 01:23, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

That's weird, should I understand that I was found innocent and that's why I've got blocked?--Stephfo (talk) 02:17, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

You are not blocked. You are simply restricted from editing in certain topic areas. However, you may become blocked if you edit in these areas for the next six months.

You are free to contribute anywhere else on Misplaced Pages. Your contributions to other Christianity-related articles, such as Wilhelm Busch (pastor) have been welcome, and I hope you continue creating or improving other Christianity articles. ~Amatulić (talk) 02:42, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

I wish you luck Stephfo. Dbrodbeck (talk) 03:10, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, I guess that's why you voted for my block and suggested even indef one later on: "*Support. This is I think the last hope for this user to show (s)he can become a more constructive editor. I also agree that if there will be another block it should be indefinite. Dbrodbeck (talk) 03:13, 25 November 2011 (UTC)"--Stephfo (talk) 03:23, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Indeed, I think you have passion about stuff, and want to contribute, and those are good things. You have to learn policies etc, and in that I truly wish you luck. Dbrodbeck (talk) 03:43, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your genuine effort to improve my skills, what are the 5 major policies that you found I need to improve the most and would would be the hyper-linked 5 cases you have managed to identify where I failed to apply them properly?--Stephfo (talk) 03:52, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

That's exactly what I was afraid -that your truly wish of good luck would not be followed by any truly action due to objective hindrances, but still thank you at least for nice wishes and at least declarative support, it is definitely better than nothing, it's much different feeling when you feel such strong benevolence behind your back, you know. --Stephfo (talk) 04:47, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

I do not, currently, have the time to go into that sort of detail. However, I think the key ones are, in no particular order, WP:TRUTH, which is not a policy, but an essay, WP:AGF (which can be very hard sometimes I know) WP:NPOV and oh let's go with WP:TLDR which again is an essay. Feel free to leave me a message on my page or email me if you wish. I honestly want you to do well. Dbrodbeck (talk) 04:02, 30 November 2011 (UTC).

Currently it is a matter of timing. It is the end of term, I am grading papers and making up exams and doing other much less interesting administrative work. Over the Christmas holidays I would be happy to have an email exchange with you. You can email me from my user page. Dbrodbeck (talk) 05:00, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

I apologize for any inconvenience, but I found your declaration "Your contributions to other Christianity-related articles, such as Wilhelm Busch (pastor) have been welcome, and I hope you continue creating or improving other Christianity articles" in direct contradiction with sentence "you are just not permitted to edit the topic areas of creation, evolution, and articles critical of Christianity." I'd like to bring to your attention the opinion of Galileo who stated on one occasion: "However, consider that, as I just said, whoever has truth on his side has a great, indeed the greatest, advantage over the opponent, and that it is impossible for two truths to contradict each other; it follows therefore that we must not fear any assaults launched against us by anyone, as long as we are allowed to speak and to be heard by competent persons who are not excessively upset by their own emotions and interests.". I suggest that if this rule about two truths is in force, then one of the aforementioned sentences must be false, I either am "welcome to continue creating or improving other Christianity articles", or "not permitted to edit the topic areas of ... articles critical of Christianity", both of them cannot be valid at the same time, IMHO. --Stephfo (talk) 03:12, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

You can edit Christianity related articles, just not articles that critical of Christianity (for example Criticism of Christianity). Alpha_Quadrant 03:31, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

I am curious, how is the article on Wilhelm Busch in any way critical of Christianity? ~Amatulić (talk) 04:14, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

OK, this makes sense. Pls. advise what is the official reason (which policy is applied) for my ban and how it is enforced, is it automatic by system or I have to take heed myself and evaluate case-by-case.

If latter, pls. advise what are the objective criteria to find out whether an article is eligible for this ban.

I hope you've managed to notice my Q: "If possible, I'd like to ask you to inform me what are my possibilities to appeal this block." If yes, then pls. note I have not managed to notice your A. Thanks, kind regards--Stephfo (talk) 04:27, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

AQ, pls. advise whether this edit of mine can be found at ANI board, my browseer seems to cease to display it, is it my local technical problem or someone have removed it; if latter, how it is then wrt. to your assurance that ":Regarding this, yes you can argue against other user's claims. However, it is usually best to let other editors do that for you."?--Stephfo (talk) 04:00, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

I believe it is a technical issue with ANI. I have noticed on the 23rd that new comments weren't always appearing. It can be solved by purging the page cache. I will note that in some cases, if you log out and clear your browser storage and come back to it, the page will appear unpurged once again. I am not sure what causes this bizarre issue. I tend to just ignore it. Your comments are still there. Alpha_Quadrant 04:09, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks.

To answer your questions: (i) You can see here for info on appealing your ban - that page should also any other questions about your ban so I recommend you read the whole thing. Essentially, you can request arbitration or you can post at AN/I. I'll just put it out there now that there is almost no chance of this happening - community consensus on issues like this is generally the final authority.(ii) The exact text of your ban is "Creation/Evolution topics and topics critical of Christianity, including atheism and creationism, and all areas of the natural sciences relating to creationism, including pertinent areas of biology, geology, astronomy and cosmology, broadly construed." This means that you cannot edit any creationism articles at all, or anything even remotely related to creationism. You also cannot edit scientific articles that relate to creationism; as the ban says, you cannot edit in the areas of biology, geology, astronomy and cosmology, broadly construed. This means that Evolution is off limits, so is Astronomy, so is Big Bang, so is Allen's rule, etc. "Broadly construed" means that if you have to ask, then it's probably off limits. This should be very clear cut - if you can look at an article and make a connection to creationism or anything that could be critical of Christianity, then you can't edit it. (iii) You were not blocked under any specific policy, you were blocked by a community consensus. However, in determining that consensus both in this AN/I and in past discussions, such as those on Talk:Objections to evolution, and previous AN/I reports, many policies were mentioned such as WP:NPOV, WP:FRINGE, WP:IDIDNOTHEARTHAT, etc. (iiii) The ban is enforced by you not editing any of those articles. If you do and get caught then you will be blocked and a community ban may be enacted. If there are borderline cases and you cannot tell then you may ask on AN/I. Nformation 06:43, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Topic ban violation warning.

You have violated the terms of your topic ban by editing the article on Big Bang. You are not allowed to do this, and you can be indefinitely blocked for doing so.

Just in case you didn't see the terms of your topic ban, they are as follows:

Stephfo is banned from all "Creation/Evolution topics and topics critical of Christianity, including atheism and creationism, and all areas of the natural sciences relating to creationism, including pertinent areas of biology, geology, astronomy and cosmology, broadly construed" for a period of 6 months. This is a modified version of the original proposal, which there appears to be consensus for. While opposition to the original proposal has been based on the fact that it was too broad, there is a general consensus here that a topic ban of some sort is necessary to assist Stephfo in learning the policy that governs this site. In enacting a topic ban, the community expects Stephfo take a step back, slow down, evaluate his/her position on editing, and work closely with his/her mentor to learn the policies of the project.

Don't do this again. It's a very big violation of the rules. I've informed your mentor so that he can talk to you about this. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 23:44, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Just in case you didn't see the terms of the blocks: cf."For this reason, blocks will not usually be allowed to become a source of conflict; rather, consensus will be sought, by means of a fair and objective examination of the matter and of any policies alleged to have been breached." I do declare that I demand objective examination of the matter related to my sources, i.e. my activity area used in relation to my block. --Stephfo (talk) 01:44, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Being an opposing point of view, the Big Bang article is related to creationism. Under the topic ban, you really shouldn't edit such articles. Repeated violations can lead to blocks. If you aren't sure if an article falls under the category, please consider asking me before editing in the area. Thank you, Alpha_Quadrant 23:52, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

I assume this is the concerning edit. While you aren't editing an article under the topic ban, you are discussing an article that falls under your topic ban. Discussing an article that falls under a topic ban can be interpreted as violating the topic ban. Alpha_Quadrant 23:59, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Correct. Stephfo I recommend you read very carefully the Ban policy page I linked above. This time nothing is happening but you are expected to follow this ban to the letter. Also, just to clarify something AQ said: violating your topic ban will almost certainly get you indef blocked from the whole site for a long time, like 6 months long. It's not a matter of "repeated" violations - a single violation is enough. Nformation 00:30, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

This should go to AN/I as there is absolutely no excuse for this. In my above explanation of the topic ban I specifically mentioned that Big Bang was off limits. If someone else doesn't do it I will when I get home tonight Nformation 00:04, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

We had not told him that he couldn't discuss the topics. Now he knows this. There is really no point in taking this to AN/I. If there are future incidents, then we may need to. Alpha_Quadrant 00:08, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure I have not edited Big Bang article since 20th of nov 2011 well before the ANI was initiated. I have no intention to perform any edit of the given article, however since I have right to appeal the block that was enforced upon me, I deem for appropriate to learn 3rd party opinion prior to going for the arbitration. Pls. explain according to what policy I should be not allowed to do so. At the same time, I'd like to ask you to lead the discussion wrt. given source being a contention point leading to my blockage on my behalf, if you deem it as more appropriate. Thanks. --Stephfo (talk) 00:11, 2 December 2011 (UTC) Ref. --Stephfo (talk) 01:44, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

That's correct, Stepho. A topic ban means you are not allowed to do anything in the topic area whatsoever, either in article space, on talk pages, on notice boards or even your own talk page. The ONLY exception would be during discussions about appealing your topic ban in an appropriate venue. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 01:00, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Dominus for your kind explanation, may you please also refer to policy you are quoting? I hope it is not this one: "I'm not at all interested in hearing you protest, object or defend yourself anymore. ...Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 09:40, 21 July 2011 (UTC)"--Stephfo (talk) 01:09, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

My mistake and my apologies. I did not check your contribs, I just saw this section. Not sure why DV posted it. Nformation 00:14, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

I have already answered this question: "You were not blocked under any specific policy, you were blocked by a community consensus. However, in determining that consensus both in this AN/I and in past discussions, such as those on Talk:Objections to evolution, and previous AN/I reports, many policies were mentioned such as WP:NPOV, WP:FRINGE, WP:IDIDNOTHEARTHAT, etc" Nformation 00:21, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

I do declare that I am not aware that any of the disputing opposing parties would ever proved any of the accusation above by means of using non-involved party and thus I regard making references to such polices for vain.

Moreover, your standpoint implies that Misplaced Pages is not governed by policies but by argumentum ad populum alias appeal to the crowd (Why it is claimed that I should "learn" policies if they are not in force at all?) and at the same time that you acknowledge that there was nothing wrong with my edit in Big Bang article wrt. sources used.

Please note that most of the community members who voted for my block based on this argumentum ad populum seem regard it for bad approach (cf. level of support for evolution: "No scientific issue is ever decided by such argumentum ad populum (Introduction to Logic, I.M. Copi, Macmillan, New York, 1978). The only thing that matters in science is if the data available match the predictions of a given scientific theory. As pointed out by creationist Bert Thompson, "Truth never is determined by popular opinion or majority vote.") and are trying falsely to attribute such methods to creationists: "Creationists often claim that public support of creationism is a sign of its validity as a scientific theory." --Stephfo (talk) 00:41, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Pls. Also note that your answer does not fit question at all, you are explaining that I was blocked without using appropriate WP policies while question was why I should not be allowed to go for WP:RSN in preparation of my defence in arbitration. Such topic was not mentioned at ANI and your answer is not addressing it whatsoever. --Stephfo (talk) 00:48, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Stephfo, please read WP:TBAN. The community has prohibited you from editing any Creation/Evolution topics and topics critical of Christianity, including atheism and creationism, and all areas of the natural sciences relating to creationism, including pertinent areas of biology, geology, astronomy and cosmology. As the community has prohibited you from editing in this area, you should not edit in this area. Once the topic ban has expired (May 29, 2012), you are free to continue editing in this area. You could appeal the topic ban, but, given the length it would be easier just to spend time editing elsewhere. Alpha Quadrant (alt) 00:56, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

I apologize for any inconvenience, but I'm not aware that I would edit any article in that topic area. I was blocked by making references to my edits that took place after my last unblock, that's why I naturally assume there was something wrong with these edits from perspective of people who got me blocked. From my perspective they were wrong (this group of people who blocked me) and I have right to appeal their block of mine. To be able to make my appeal reasonable, I naturally need opinion of the 3rd party. Based on what I should be denied of defending myself?--Stephfo (talk) 01:14, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

OK, I used that reference because of reference to logical way of disputing matters without noticing and realizing it can be misused. My mistake, pls. accept my apology. --Stephfo (talk) 01:21, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Stepho, do not post anything about a banned topic anywhere, including RSN. If you need an answer to a question about a topic that you are not allowed to discuss for your arbitration, inform your mentor and they can post the question for you if they think it is appropriate. If you have any questions, ask them.

I have to agree with your mentor that there is little hope that appealing your topic ban will succeed. Your time would be better spent constructively editing in other areas and reading up on WP policies. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 01:32, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

But then they should be first used, if they are not ("You were not blocked under any specific policy, you were blocked by a community consensus"), what would be benefit of it? It is obviously not policies but power what decides at the end. --Stephfo (talk) 01:51, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

You were not blocked. You were topic banned. There's a BIG difference. Read the policy: WP:Banning. VERY carefully. In other words, you were given a last chance. If you violate the ban, you will be blocked indefinitely. There is no room for error here. Be very careful and follow the policy to the letter. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 02:18, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, and no one need justify this to you. The fact is such that you are not allowed to edit these articles and this was determined by a consensus of your peers. If you disagree you may appeal at arbcom or on AN/I but in the meantime if you edit in that topic area at all, even on ancillary pages or even discussing the topic itself, you will be blocked and will likely not be unblocked. Deal with this information how you wish, I'm just giving you the facts of the matter (whether you think it's logical, justified or not is irrelevant). Technically you could already be blocked for having posted on RSN but we are cutting you some slack, once. Nformation 03:53, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Pls. feel free to block me if you are really so malicious and do not allow for defence against the false accusations, I hope you can enlist the edits I allegedly did to article on intelligent design before my last block, otherwise I suggest that in line with the rule on civility you should apologize for false accusations. --Stephfo (talk) 03:24, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm going to be really blunt here because you do not seem to get the message and I cannot think of any way to put this nicely: you were banned because no one wants to deal with you. No one wants to read walls of text, most of which is incomprehensible. No one wants to explain simple concepts to you over and over again that you can't understand due to a language barrier or for other reasons. Your peers have decided that it's better for our sanity and for the encyclopedia for you not to edit on these topics. Working on WP is a privilege, not a right, and part of the privilege has been revoked. Time to move on. I'm done responding here. Either stick to the topic ban or get blocked, no skin off my ass. Nformation 03:36, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

It is interesting that the capability to understand always ceases exactly at moments when arguments that nobody is able to refute are presented, such as:

• • the one that claim by user:Dominus Vobisdu (that I was allegedly editing article on Intelligent Design before my previous block) is clearly false,
  • or that accusation of my edit content "isn't in the body, and so does not belong in the lead" is in blatant discrepancy with reality.

Add. "no one wants to deal with you": I suggest that the truth might be very well quite opposite, that's why you can find announcements like this one: Resignation from Misplaced Pagesmaking references to "self-appointed deletionist Misplaced Pages topic police" and discoveries like this: "I've found lately that if you try to contribute anything at all, somebody immediately deletes your contribution, citing some obscure violation of the minutiae of thousands of Misplaced Pages rules and policies." Maybe the key to real remedy is given in this proposition to return to the origins: "When Misplaced Pages first started, it was a very nice project. You could contribute to existing articles or start new ones, and it was fun to watch other users improve on what you had written -- expanding it, making it clearer, adding more information, etc. It really worked well for a number of years." Please note, if someone doesn't want "to read walls of text" then he/she should perhaps think about this trend at WP, an properly resort to WP:DR tools instead of arranging for block of fellow editor via back-ally administrators who do not have even a vestige of civility to answer the questions they were given. Moreover, when objective 3rd party is called in, false accusations do not get through, argumentum ad hominum on incomprehensible texts, language barriers etc. is not accepted, and that's what this topic ban is about, to avoid inconvenient truth, IMHO. Should you stand up for what you say - then I challenge you to allow for WP:DRN process in any area pertinent to my block to prove your point.--Stephfo (talk) 15:14, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Warning

Stephfo, you are not blocked - yet. The community has decided that your behaviour is too disruptive to allow you to continue to edit in certain areas. It's not a matter of guilt or innocence - its a matter of competence - you are currently editing very badly, and causing a lot of problems in these areas. Your editing in other areas - such as articles about various clergymen - is not causing a lot of problems, so you can carry on doing that.

However, if you post in the areas you are topic banned from, then you will be blocked. Can you understand this? If you want to appeal the topic ban, then follow the steps at WP:UNBAN.

Do not do things like this-which violates the ban or this-which asks another editor to violate your ban by proxying for you, or this-endlessly rehashing the argument you made before about your ban, and demonstrating that although you can cut and paste quote Misplaced Pages policies, you don't seem to understand them.--Elen of the Roads (talk) 17:12, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

The "community" is very misleading and manipulative term because it does not account for votes that have been opposing such decision ("Rather that enforce this unreasonable topic ban, I would request that a Dispute Resolution regarding the matter take place, where a neutral user can mediate between the two parties here."; "Considering he is no longer edit warring and is following his mentors advice I see no reason for drastic measures such as a topic ban."). If I'm "currently editing very badly" please identify these article edits of mine that you are referring to (not inevitable defence at talk pages, if possible). There is nothing wrong in asking for clarification if someone sees discrepancy between WP rules and actual reality. I already expressed intention to go for arbitration and explained I need to collect inputs for that reason, hence I do not understand what your problem is. On the contrary, the rule that administrator should address the quality of arguments when closing ANI case is impossible to be misunderstood and if you are able to point to place were these specifically enlisted by me have been addressed, you are very welcome to do so. Thanks in advance--Stephfo (talk) 17:30, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

• Add. "this-which asks another editor to violate your ban by proxying for you" -Elen, another editor cannot violate my ban since ban is imposed on me not on him. If you are good-faith intended editor that it should be of your highest interest to find out whether the article can be improved to better quality by including content that is potentially to be found meeting the WP quality requirements. As for proxying, I hope you know the policies well, it was explained to me multiple times that edits at WP are not "yours" (it was addressed to me that time) and everybody can build up on them and use/change them, consider them worth of verification at WP:RSN etc. Please let me know if I should search for this explanation for your better understanding. Thanks, kind regards.--Stephfo (talk) 17:42, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Like I say, you cut and paste bits of policies, but you don't seem to understand a word of any of them. You are banned from editing in a certain area. If you ask another user to make edits for you, that is called meatpuppetry and the editor is proxying for you. So do not ask anyone to do that again. You are not going to get dispute resolution, because it is not a dispute between two editors - the Misplaced Pages community was torn between blocking you outright, topic banning you permanently from half the project, and the shorter and smaller topic ban that was imposed.

You need to focus on demonstrating that you can edit productively in the rest of the project, and not spend your time endlessly asking people to justify the topic ban. Elen of the Roads (talk) 17:56, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

"I found it: "If it is in the article, it is not 'yours'-- see WP:OWNERSHIP & Misplaced Pages's licensing terms." HrafnTalkStalk(P) 08:41, 19 July 2011 (UTC)"--Stephfo (talk) 17:58, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

WP:COMPETENCE. If you are unable to actually understand Misplaced Pages policies, then you will not be able to continue editing here. Nothing I have said is about licencing. Everything I have said is about trying to get round your topic ban. Elen of the Roads (talk) 18:05, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

I doubt that you read that policy yourself, otherwise you could not state it here if the claim inside reads like this:

"Do not recruit your friends, family members, or communities of people who agree with you for the purpose of coming to Misplaced Pages and supporting your side of a debate. If you feel that a debate is ignoring your voice, remain civil, and seek comments from other Wikipedians or pursue dispute resolution. These are well-tested processes, designed to avoid the problem of exchanging bias in one direction for bias in another.

High-profile disputes on Misplaced Pages often bring new editors to the site. These editors are sometimes referred to as meatpuppets, following a common Internet usage. While Misplaced Pages assumes good faith, especially for new users, recruiting new editors to influence decisions on Misplaced Pages is prohibited. A new user who engages in the same behavior as another user in the same context, and who appears to be editing Misplaced Pages solely for that purpose, may be subject to the remedies applied to the user whose behavior they are joining."

Pls. note I have not recruited "friends, family members, or communities of people who agree with " let alone "new editors to influence decisions on Misplaced Pages". I'm following the WP rule on WP:Mentorship (Mentorship is an arrangement in which one user assists another user, the protégé. Depending on the nature of the mentorship agreement, the mentor may give the protégé advice on more effective editing habits and help the protégé resolve disputes). I hope you have noticed that:

• it was not my idea to go for this kind of mentorship arrangement alias "well-tested process" to "pursue dispute resolution" designed to avoid the problem of exchanging bias in one direction for bias in another, what I'm strongly convinced is taking place in here
• mentor is not "A new user who engages in the same behavior as another user in the same context, and who appears to be editing Misplaced Pages solely for that purpose" and acting on my behalf as his protégé when involved in dispute is exactly what mentor is here for to avoid escalation of the tensions
• I believe you understand that I have no intention to edit any article but follow the advise of your policy to "seek comments from other Wikipedians", namely WP:RSN for purposes of dispute resolution wrt. my block, which I and obviously also some other editors regard for biased. Thanks. --Stephfo (talk) 18:26, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Alpha_Quadrant 18:32, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

File:WilhelmBuschPriest1.png

I have once again removed the image which you uploaded, from the article on Wilhelm Busch (pastor) as it was clearly copied on your admission from here without permission of the copyright holder.Theroadislong (talk) 13:13, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Then I do not understand how it is possible, I'm 100% percent sure I haven't once again uploaded anything, I just discovered that the picture is still displayed at Wiqiquotes, and as my impression was that someone made a note that the picture will be removed from Wikimedia but can be kept at WP, I came to conclusion that is the reason why it has still remained kept shown at wikiquotes and essentially I just made the link the same already present picture, IMHO. By the way, the picture was not copied from Amazon, but taken live directly from hardcopy book cover "Ježiš náš osud" (1993), a book that does not contain any copyright statements whatsoever. Sometimes things that other people feel as being "clear" might have nothing to do with reality at all.--Stephfo (talk) 14:31, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

You have copied an image from a book, that is not allowed, the copyright belongs to the original photographer or the publisher and clearly NOT you.Theroadislong (talk) 15:13, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

I took the photo of the book, as I already mentioned, a book that has no copyright statements whatsoever. If the copyright belongs to original photographer, then based on what if in the book itself it is not stated?--Stephfo (talk) 15:29, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

• It's a dustjacket. It may be acceptable to use an image of the dustjacket, or part of the image on the dustjacket, under fair use. The chap is deceased, so no-one can go take a picture of him now. There is a question as to whether whoever created the Amazon image has copyright in the derivative , but in the US, there would not be enough creative element to justify this just by taking a photo of the bookjacket. I expect the problem is that it was uploaded wrongly (with no source and no FUR). Let me check into it. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 18:16, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

OK, now I understand. It is not free, and will be deleted from Commons. However, it can be uploaded to Misplaced Pages under fair use. Stephfo, could you re-upload it to Misplaced Pages rather than Commons. Don't say it's your own work - you only scanned it, and that doesn't give you copyright. Rather select the option that it is a page from a book, and fill in the Fair Use Rationale as far as you can (don't worry if you make a mistake, I can fix it later). If you made the scan, then under 'source' say that you scanned it yourself. If you cropped an image on the web, give the url. Elen of the Roads (talk) 18:25, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

In case you're not following, the image itself may still be the copyright of the original book publisher, and Gloria.tv have paid them a license fee. Even if it isn't, Gloria.tv's own terms and conditions say "Any commercial use of contents of this website is forbidden." This makes it incompatible with Misplaced Pages licenses, so any content has to be used under WP:NFCC ie Fair use.Elen of the Roads (talk) 18:32, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

I tried hard but when I was about to upload it, it gave me no reasonable option that would match reality. (Now I mean when I did it 1st time onto Commons, I have not yet tried to repeat the trial onto WP instead per your advice.) I didn't like the option I picked, but there was really no better one in spite of my impression that before I could see wider choices during upload (and I think even one specifically mentioning book cover).--Stephfo (talk) 18:34, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Make sure you're trying to upload the file to Misplaced Pages - the page it brings up offers 'book cover' as an option. Elen of the Roads (talk) 18:36, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Now I'm completely puzzled about your reasoning making references to Gloria.tv and I have no clue where are you aiming at. When I wrote "the picture was not copied from Amazon, but taken live directly from hardcopy book cover "Ježiš náš osud" (1993), a book that does not contain any copyright statements whatsoever" then I really meant that I took a picture by camera from hardcopy book cover being on the table in front of my eyes and reference to any web page makes no other sense then give a notion what the book looks like for those who cannot touch it. I'm 100% no gloria.tv has anything to do with the book on my table, they just put the different piece obtained who knows where onto their web after they perhaps made a scan of it, as far as I can say, but it has nothing to do with my hard copy and my photo of it.--Stephfo (talk) 18:43, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Ah, OK. I can see the book on Gloria.tv but not a picture of a dustjacket. If you look immediately below the scrolling text of the book, there's a little box that says "License" If you click it, it comes up "all rights reserved", so I'd go with the book being copyright, or at least reserved for non-commercial use. Also, it's not clear who holds the copyright of the photo. So I'd stick with uploading it as non-free, fill in the fair use template as best you can.Elen of the Roads (talk) 19:59, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

It does appear that the book cover is under copyright. Though you made a copy of the image with a scan, the image is still under copyright. Similarly, if one were to take a screen shot of a copyrighted film, the screen shot is still under copyright. The image can be used on Misplaced Pages, but it can only be used under fair use because it is copyrighted. If you need any assistance, I would be happy to assist you. Best, Alpha_Quadrant 20:34, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

I do not mind under what condition a picture can be used, for me under fair use is perfectly OK, however I truly do not understand your reasoning "It does appear that the book cover is under copyright" and "because it is copyrighted" where do you have such informaiton from? The book itself clearly does not contain such information, and here you can see the cover of this book multiple times: , , , , ,this is by the way publisher: . Please explain where do you have it from that the image is copyrighted? --Stephfo (talk) 20:46, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Stephfo, see WP:COPYVIO. In particular, note "media which is not available under a suitable free license and which does not meet the non-free content criteria, should be assumed to be unacceptable." In many countries, content is copyrighted to the author automatically, and so if the author does not explicitly release his work under a free license, then it is copyrighted. Copyright violations are a big deal on wikipedia, so you should be extra cautious not to upload something you're unsure of. Ask first if you don't know. However, your default assumption should always be that the work is not under a free license, unless it says that it is.   — Jess· Δ♥ 21:13, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Sounds strange to me, where did you get the information that the cover of my book that does not have single copyright statement is automatically copyrighted in country of its origin? How you managed to discover that I allegedly violated any copyright? The whole book is available for download at multiple web sites, even with preparing the text for Copy and paste ("Copyable text").--Stephfo (talk) 22:05, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

I see you have added the photo again. The image is part of a book cover and the copyright for it is most likely owned either by the artist who created the cover or the publisher of the book. It could be used to illustrate an article discussing the book in question using fair use but not for any other purpose.Other use of this image, on Misplaced Pages or elsewhere, might be copyright infringement. See Misplaced Pages:Non-free content for more information.Theroadislong (talk) 21:55, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I was advised a short while ago: "So I'd stick with uploading it as non-free, fill in the fair use template as best you can.".--Stephfo (talk) 22:04, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Stephfo, you missed the part about providing a rationale for fair use. You have to explain why using the picture falls under fair use. Try this:

"The image in question is a photograph taken by me of the dustjacket of a copy of "Ježiš náš osud" (1993), which contains no information about the provenence of the photograph, nor any copyright information at all. After an extensive search, I have found no other suitable pictures of this person. As the person portrayed is deceased, there is no hope of new photographs becoming available. My efforts to identify the photographer or the copyright holder, though thorough, have been in vain. I submit that use of the picture can be justified as fair use. The picture is being used solely for non-commercial, informational and educational purposes to illustrate the subject of the article Wilhelm Busch (pastor). Use of the image here on WP is unlikely to have any impact on the commercial interests of the photographer, the copywright holder or the publisher. The image represents only a small portion of the content of the book in question.

Hope that helps. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 22:34, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Have a look at what's there currently - Alpha Quadrant and I have both had a hack at it. Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:48, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

• The text of the book must be copyright in Croatia because Croatia follows the Berne convention "life of author plus 50 years", which would bring us to 2016 at the earliest. The Church or the publisher may have made the text available to download, but that does not make it public domain. Gloria.tv's licencing clearly shows that all rights are reserved - I suspect the rest of the TOS (that I didn't translate from whatever language it is in) says that the content can be used for preaching sermons. It definitely says that it cannot be used for any commercial purpose, so it definitely is still in copyright.
• Theroadislong would be correct if you were trying to use a photo of the book cover itself, but you are only using the photo (which incidentally was taken in 1962 so it is also almost certainly still in copyright). It seems to be the only available photo that shows him at work with young people - the very thing he was known for, so it has a historic significance for the Pastor that the other existing photographs (of him sitting at desks) don't have. The German Misplaced Pages seems to have a bit more info about the photo (I think, my German is hopeless) - it would be worth including that in this article if it is the case. Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:48, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

I added the section on non-commercial use and lack of commercial impact. Thanks! Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 23:00, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Non-free rationale for File:WilhelmBuschPastor1.png

Thanks for uploading or contributing to File:WilhelmBuschPastor1.png. I notice the file page specifies that the file is being used under non-free content criteria, but there is not a suitable explanation or rationale as to why each specific use in Misplaced Pages is acceptable. Please go to the file description page, and edit it to include a non-free rationale.

If you have uploaded other non-free media, consider checking that you have specified the non-free rationale on those pages too. You can find a list of 'file' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Misplaced Pages page when you are logged in), and then selecting "File" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free media lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If the file is already gone, you can still make a request for undeletion and ask for a chance to fix the problem. If you have any questions, please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Eeekster (talk) 21:46, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Elen, per your following advice: "However, it can be uploaded to Misplaced Pages under fair use. Stephfo, could you re-upload it to Misplaced Pages rather than Commons. Don't say it's your own work - you only scanned it, and that doesn't give you copyright. Rather select the option that it is a page from a book, and fill in the Fair Use Rationale as far as you can (don't worry if you make a mistake, I can fix it later). If you made the scan, then under 'source' say that you scanned it yourself. If you cropped an image on the web, give the url." may you please help me out? Thanks in advance--Stephfo (talk) 22:16, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

I have expanded the fair use rationale and I removed the deletion tag. It should be fine now. Alpha_Quadrant 22:18, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, I noticed I had "save" conflict w/ you when I was trying to do the same.--Stephfo (talk) 22:22, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

I edit conflicted with Alpha Quadrant LOL. Should be no problems now. Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:25, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

And I had an edit conflict with Stephfo. Too may people trying to help all at once. ~Amatulić (talk) 22:34, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Ditto. I just wrote a rationale and posted it in the section above. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 22:36, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Many thanks to all.--Stephfo (talk) 23:10, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

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Hello from Wekn

Hey, Stephfo! I understand you are having some problems concerning creation-related articles, a topic ban warning, and possibly language . Let me know if I can help on my talk page. Thank you. Wekn reven i susej eht 18:20, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Just to be clear, it's not a "topic ban warning", it's a topic ban. It's probably not a good idea to discuss creationism anywhere, including your talk, as it could be construed as a violation of his current sanctions. Of course, this doesn't mean you can't help Stephfo generally, which could very well be productive, but it's important you first understand the situation so you don't unwittingly get him to break his sanctions.   — Jess· Δ♥ 18:31, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

User:Noformation asked him to see if he could help. The copyright discussion above shows where having someone who speaks Stephfo's first language might be useful - everyone was being very co-operative, but I bet Stephfo still isn't convinced the image is copyright:)Elen of the Roads (talk) 18:43, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Elen, I'm very thankful for your help related to this image upload, but in spite of that I have to strongly protest about attributing me such opinion that I do not hold. My only standpoint was:

• 1. The book, at least the one I have on my desk as 1993 edition, provably does not contain any copyright statements, let alone ones related to photo on the front page.
• 2. Nobody provided any evidence proving that the photo on the first page of the book I have on my desk is under copyright.
• 3. Conclusion: Copyright status of the photo at front page is unknown. Nothing more, nothing less. Thanks for your understanding.--Stephfo (talk) 22:44, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Like I said "you probably still aren't convinced that the photograph is copyright." It's not a criticism of *you*, it's that the explanation may be too truncated and complex if you're having to translate everything, and may have left you unconvinced that the argument that the photo is copyright is the correct one. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:25, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

That's correct, I'm not convinced since no evidence was provided, and the one presented as "The text of the book must be copyright in Croatia because Croatia follows the Berne convention "life of author plus 50 years", which would bring us to 2016 at the earliest." sounds to be absolutely strange to me, as Croatia has nothing to do with book whatsoever, it sounds the same as if someone would claim that some US-origin book used in US must be copyrighted because Papa-New-Guinea follows some local law related to books in their country.--Stephfo (talk) 15:54, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Stephfo, we ALWAYS assume that ALL published books and the images they contain are protected by copyright UNLESS there is positive evidence that they are not. It doesn't matter whether YOU are convinced that the book and image are not under copyright. The burden is on YOU to prove that it isn't. Just because a book or image has no explicit copyright information in it does not mean that it is not protected. Copyright protection is a matter of INTERNATIONAL law, not merely local law. Slovakia also follows the Berne Convention ]. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 21:10, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

I apologize for any inconvenience, but I've NEVER been convinced that the book and image are not under copyright, I was just convinced that it is unknown since nobody have proved by any evidence that it is under any copyright and there are absolutely no copyright statements whatsoever in the book itself. That's it. Your argument on international law etc. is the 1st one that is exhibiting some vestiges of logical coherence, and even then it was very tight: Edition of the book is 1993, Contracting Parties > Berne Convention > Slovakia > Entry into Force: January 1, 1993.--Stephfo (talk) 21:45, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Before that date, the convention was in force in Slovakia as part of Czechoslovakia, which signed the Berlin Treaty in 1908 and the Berne Convention in 1914. The 1993 date is only a CONTINUATION of the policy, a promise by independent Slovakia that it will continue to abide by the treaties signed by Czechoslovakia. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 21:57, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree, I realized exactly the same thing just shortly after making my post as the date would be otherwise very suspicious. Making reference to logically coherent argument is much more welcome than making argument just by bare/mere assurance, at least in my case.--Stephfo (talk) 22:09, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, Jess. I'll look up topic bans later. Meanwhile, I do speak his language (if it is Serbian) and was wondering how I might be of assistance. Wekn reven i susej eht 19:04, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Just read the topic ban page. Thanks (and sorry). But would explaining to him the right approach to editing WP articles be breaking the current sanctions? Wekn reven i susej eht 19:08, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

That would really help. As you'll see if you read thru the talkpage, Stephfo often quotes snippets of policy, but he seldom seems to have understood the document in its entirity, suggesting he might be struggling with translating the full item. And of course there are a lot of 'unwritten rules', that catch all new editors out, even if they have the English perfectly. Elen of the Roads (talk) 19:19, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Explaining how to better approach editing articles generally could be a great help. Just try to avoid talking specifically about the areas he's topic banned from, so creationism, some science areas, etc. For instance, talking about his editing of Wilhelm Busch (pastor) or policy generally would be fine, but talking about Intelligent Design probably would not. The topic ban is "broadly construed", so I'd suggest trying to play it safe just in case. His mentor, Alpha Quadrant may be able to help clarify, too, if you're unsure. I think Elen's suggestions would be a terrific place to start. Thanks for agreeing to help out, Wekn!   — Jess· Δ♥ 19:22, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Sure thing. Thank you ! I'll begin tomorrow. In this part of the world, it is night time. Wekn reven i susej eht 19:25, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for stopping by, Wekn. @Stephfo: I first ran into Wekn on Creationism pages maybe a year ago and he picked up policy quickly. Since he also speaks what I believe is your native language I figured he'd make a good match as a mentor. It is probably correct that you shouldn't discuss creationism on site, but (and Elen will correct me if I am wrong) perhaps he can discuss this subject with you through email so that when you return to the topic in 6 months you will be apt to do so. Good luck. Nformation 20:11, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Email is fine, particularly as Stephfo will want to know *why* saying X got him into trouble, or why WP:WORDSALAD didn't apply to Y. It isn't his beliefs that are the problem, it was his approach to editing Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:16, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Hello Wekn, I really appreciate your kind willingness to assist me in my case. I think it was a very great idea to involve you in here, although I'm not sure how your native language would help it. Still, the basic problem is, as far as I could understand it, that Noformation as well as possibly other editors would like to have better understanding of my question raised in ANI discussion. You can find it at the bottom of the discussion in this section . Please let me know if you would be able to rephrase it in an English that would be more comprehensible for people who would be otherwise very happy to answer it in collaborative civil manner, but due to my limited skills they unfortunately have no chance. Once more thank you very much in advance for your help and effort to maintain succinct, concise conversation.--Stephfo (talk) 22:27, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Stepfho, my apologies but I thought that Serbian was your native language, am I confusing it with Slovakian? I remember reading that you had been active on another language Misplaced Pages and thought it was Serbian. Nformation 22:32, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Overlinking

Please note we only wiki link the first instance of a word in an article, not it's every occurrence.Theroadislong (talk) 21:32, 7 December 2011 (UTC)