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Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive367#Close challenge for Talk:1948 Arab–Israeli War#RFC for Jewish exodus

(Initiated 25 days ago on 13 December 2024) challenge of close at AN was archived nableezy - 05:22, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#Sander.v.Ginkel unblock request

(Initiated 23 days ago on 15 December 2024) voorts (talk/contributions) 00:55, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

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Requests for comment

Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/In the news criteria amendments

(Initiated 92 days ago on 7 October 2024) Tough one, died down, will expire tomorrow. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:58, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 459#RFC_Jerusalem_Post

(Initiated 72 days ago on 28 October 2024) Participation/discussion has mostly stopped & is unlikely to pick back up again. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

 Note: This is a contentious topic and subject to general sanctions. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Archived. P.I. Ellsworth , ed.  22:26, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Genocide#RfC: History section, adding native American and Australian genocides as examples

(Initiated 62 days ago on 6 November 2024) RfC expired on 6 December 2024 . No new comments in over a week. Bogazicili (talk) 15:26, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Team Seas#Re: the ocean pollution additions

(Initiated 53 days ago on 15 November 2024) Clear consensus that the proposed edit (and its amended version) violate WP:SYNTH. However, the owning editor is engaging in sealioning behavior, repeatedly arguing against the consensus and dismissing others' rationale as not fitting his personal definition of synthesis; and is persistently assuming bad-faith, including opening an ANI accusing another editor of WP:STONEWALLING. When finally challenged to give a direct quote from the source that supports the proposed edit, it was dismissed with "I provided the source, read it yourself" and then further accused that editor with bad-faith. The discussion is being driven into a ground by an editor who does not (nor wish to) understand consensus and can't be satisfied with any opposing argument supported by Misplaced Pages policy or guidelines. --ThomasO1989 (talk) 22:30, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Israel#RfC

(Initiated 46 days ago on 22 November 2024) Legobot has removed the RFC notice. Can we please get an interdependent close. TarnishedPath 23:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

 Note: Ongoing discussion, please wait a week or two. Bogazicili (talk) 14:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Nikolai_Rimsky-Korsakov#RFC_on_Infobox_for_Nikolai_Rimsky-Korsakov

(Initiated 36 days ago on 2 December 2024) The last comment on this was on 24 December 2024 and Legobot has removed the RFC tag. An independent closer (preferably an admin) would be welcome. Many thanks - SchroCat (talk) 15:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

•  Done Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

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Misplaced Pages:Files for discussion/2024 November 27#File:The Musician (Erling Blöndal Bengtsson) by Ólöf Pálsdóttir.jpg

(Initiated 41 days ago on 27 November 2024) * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 20:02, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

•  Done Stifle (talk) 11:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 December 20#Category:Belarusian saints

(Initiated 19 days ago on 20 December 2024) HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 23:10, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

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Other types of closing requests

Talk:Arab migrations to the Levant#Merger Proposal

(Initiated 105 days ago on 25 September 2024) Open for a while, requesting uninvolved closure. Andre🚐 22:15, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Donald Trump#Proposal: Age and health concerns regarding Trump

(Initiated 84 days ago on 16 October 2024) Experienced closer requested. ―Mandruss ☎ 13:57, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Winter fuel payment abolition backlash#Merge proposal

(Initiated 71 days ago on 29 October 2024) There are voices on both sides (ie it is not uncontroversial) so a non-involved editor is needed to evaluate consensus and close this. Thanks. PamD 09:55, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Israel–Hamas war#Survey

(Initiated 62 days ago on 7 November 2024) Looking for uninvolved close in CTOP please, only a few !votes in past month. I realise this doesn't require closing, but it is preferred in such case due to controversial nature of topic. CNC (talk) 10:44, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

•  Note: I'm happy to perform the merge if required, as have summarised other sections of this article already with consensus. I realise it's usually expected to perform splits or merges when closing discussions, but in this case it wouldn't be needed. CNC (talk) 20:28, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Shiv Sena#Merge proposal

(Initiated 42 days ago on 27 November 2024) Discussion seems to have stopped. As the proposal is not uncontroversial, and I, as the initiator, am involved, I am requesting an uninvolved editor to close the discussion. Arnav Bhate (talk • contribs) 11:02, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

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Wgfinley's conduct on A/E

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

asad (talk) 22:21, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Wgfinley (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

WP:ADMINACCT

This was originally a request on WP:A/E that has been migrated here because it is not under the scope of A/E apparently.

WGFinley has seemingly lost sight of his of his duties as an Administrator on Misplaced Pages. As to why I feel this has happened, I will not speculate it was do to his preference towards a certain POV, unwillingness to admit a mistake or even flat out arrogance, because I quite frankly see that as irrelevant. This all stems from his adjudication of the User:Jiujitsuguy case. In quick summary, Jiujitsuguy violated WP:Consensus (in particular WP:Legality of Israeli settlements), by removing reference to Katzrin being an Israeli settlement in the Golan Heights. Jiujitsuguy later self-reverted. Something is important to note here: that although the complaint was originally filed for JJGs removal of a consensus statement, more diffs were added which shows that Jiujitsuguy deliberately abused sources to push a certain POV. This was especially concerning considering JJGs recent expiration of a topic-ban of, which he received largely for misrepresenting sources.

I am not going to copy the text verbatim, but it is clear to see from JJGs most recent A/E case he distorted sources to push a POV that Mount Hermon is in Israel. Both User:EdJohnston and User:Timotheus Canens both seemed to agree that there was an issue with JJGs sources and were willing to discuss the matter. But WGFinley was not interested at all. WGF was asked multiple times to please address the issue of JJG misrepresenting sources, he either did not, or claimed that he already did. I still, until this very second, have no idea where he purportedly addressed the issues.

JJG source misrepresentation diffs:

1. 13 Nov 2011 Claims Mt. Hermon is in Israel by using the Fodor's Travel Guide source and the quote he cites in the ref, "Mt Hermon, famous as Israel’s highest mountain," but leaves out, "at 9,230 feet above sea level -- is actually in Syrian territory." The full quote should read (with the strikethroughs being what JJG omitted), "Mt. Hermon -- famous as Israel's highest mountain, at 9,230 feet above sea level -- is actually in Syrian territory." (see the source here)
2. 13 Nov 2011 Uses this source to claim Mt. Hermon is in Israel, although the source clearly writes, "Mount Hermon reaches 9232 feet, but its peak is actually located on the border between Lebanon and Syria. The Hermon Ski Resort is in Israel's Golan Heights."

Besides the multiple requests on the A/E thread, WGF was asked on his talk page to explain the issue:

1. 30 Nov 2011 Asked by User:Malik Shabazz to address JJG misrepresenting sources after prematurely closing the A/E thread without seeing T. Canens latest post calling for a topic-ban
2. 30 Nov 2011 User:Gatoclass brought to WGF's attention that the issue in A/E was misuse of sources
3. 1 Dec 2011 Matter brought to attention, again by User:Nableezy with request for an explantion
4. 1 Dec 2011 Asked by myself to, again, address the issue of misrepresentation of sources

WGF's confusion of the matter was further illustrated by claiming that JJG had "self-reverted" himself at Mount Hermon, which he never did (see Mount Hermon's history):

1. 30 Nov 2011

This was the only other time WGF even brought up JJG and Mount Hermon in the same post. Neither of the diffs refer to him addressing misrepresentation of sources at all, whatsoever:

1. 30 Nov 2011

Additional comments

Lets pretend for a second that we want to accept WGF's position that Nableezy was uncivil and, therefore, WGF wouldn't want to respond to someone who was acting to so "uncivil" towards him. Fine. But what is the excuse for the other three editors who posed the same question? WP:ADMIN clearly states, "Administrators are expected to respond promptly and civilly to queries about their Misplaced Pages-related conduct and administrator actions and to justify them when needed." WGF can't just say he has responded to something he didn't even respond to push the issue aside. He should be accountable for his actions, he can't use ambiguity to disguise bad judgement calls he has made as an admin. He seems to have an issue with editors questioning decisions he makes, as is evidenced by the amount of "discussion closed" hats he places on his talk page.

But what has become even more hard to bear in this whole debate is the fact that some admins are only catching the tail-end of the situation and noticing Nableezy's perceived "incivility", without even understanding the context of the situation. By doing that, some admins seem willing to sacrifice one "uncivil" editor to better the so-called "Project", but not look at the larger issue of POV-pushing and falsification of sources. Being an admin on A/E is not about personal vendettas or tallying up blocks and bans, it is about using tools in a proper way to make the encyclopedia experience more reliable for the average person trying to get information on a topic based on a simple Google search. This admin, in particular, has decided that a more important issue for A/E is the is an editors perceived incivility, but not one editors manipulation of sources that degrade the quality of the encyclopedia. I find that extremely distasteful.

I don't think WGF's adminship should be recalled, but I do think he should not be allowed to adjudicate anything further relating to ARBPIA. He should also be reminded, that he should be required to give a clear response when serious questions (like falsification of sources) are asked to him. -asad (talk) 22:50, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Notified

Comment by The Devil's Advocate

Full disclosure, I am currently under a topic ban imposed by WG on a separate subject, though I still think I am quite capable of being objective about his actions. I'm pretty thick-skinned.

First, I think this might be for ANI specifically and not the noticeboard in general, though asad appears to have just been acting according to an admin's suggestion. Of course, I don't really know. Maybe this is the right place for it.

Second, I think the inquiry should be broadened a bit since it appears at this point to be little more than calling for a pound of flesh because of a disagreement with WG on one case. While the admin who suggested this area as a more appropriate venue felt there was not much merit, I think that is partly because it is focused on that one case when there are in fact two cases of relevance here. WG's actions in the case against Cptnono appears to be the main cause for concern on the admin's behavior.

That case has seen WG suggesting Nableezy be banned from AE requests and topic-banned because he believed the case against Cptnono was vexatious and because Nableezy had commented on the AE case mentioned above after it closed. I think part of the problem with that is the way WG went about suggesting it. Specifically, he made the suggestion in the AE case against Cptnono in the area for unvinvolved admins. Given some pretty heated words between him and Nableezy it seems charitable for WG to consider himself an uninvolved editor as it concerns Nableezy's conduct, especially since several of the problems WG cited with Nableezy's conduct were on WG's talk page and directed at WG. I should also direct attention to one of those problems (listed as #3 in a list) WG cites where he misrepresents the situation on his talk page. Another admin started a discussion on WG's talk page and Nableezy later commented on those discussions. WG only specifically warns him twice to take the discussion to AE and the second time Nableezy appears to relent, but WG seemingly implies that Nableezy ignored repeated pleas to only discuss on AE.

On a final note, I should add that WG's actions on my AE case were questioned along similar lines to those above.

I really have no opinion on action to be taken, though if WG seems to be out of his depth on more complicated disputes typical of AE perhaps he should be restricted to more technical and obvious areas of administrative purview. Of course, maybe he just needs to be told that carefully reading people's comments so as to understand the dispute is generally expected of an admin when suggesting sanctions. Either way, it seems he may need to be considered an involved admin when it comes to cases regarding Nableezy given the increasingly heated nature of their relationship on Misplaced Pages.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 01:00, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Comment by MichaelNetzer

This filing is predicated by disapproval over AE decisions WGF made regarding an editor who spares little discourtesy and rage towards editors and admins who disagree with him. This editor's tone and behavior are often aggressive, disruptive, uncivil and foment a poisonous atmosphere in the editing environment. He and supporters of his POV push in that editing space have mastered the art of trying to silence "opponents", including the art of excessive filing of complaints and filibustering discussions, based on technical issues meant to distract from the aggressive POV pushing behavior, far above what is generally tolerated on WP. This complaint is the last in such a series now intended to silence WGFinley, who has identified the behavioral problem and is proposing a remedy for it at AE. Nothing more. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 01:36, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Going after Nableezy is an unhelpful distraction. Nableezy may be abrasive at times, but that does not mean WG should be elevated to some sort of sainthood for suggesting action against him. There was clearly a heated atmosphere between WG and Nableezy, and it appears to have been specifically between them. He should not be suggesting any action under the guise of being uninvolved when Nableezy has clearly gotten under his skin. My thinking is he should have recognized that his own emotions were too intense and perhaps made a formal request as an involved editor concerning Nableezy.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 02:08, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

"Abrasive" is a generously kind understatement for Nableezy's tone in the I/P editing space with editors he disagrees with. His behavior is the root of too many issues there. WGF is addressing this root cause that is too often masked behind technical issues. His involvement is only in his capacity as administrator and does not in any way disqualify him to handle issues with Nableezy. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 15:41, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Nableezy has presented five AE cases, I believe, within the past five months or so and two of them lead to sanctions against the reported editors with no action against Nableezy, in at least one case those sanctions were imposed by WG. Another saw several admins supporting sanctions, but was closed because of the opposition from other admins, WG namely. The latest one against Cptnono saw several admins agreeing that the conduct Nableezy reported was a violation or appeared to be a violation. WG's call for banning Nableezy from AE seems incredibly excessive in light of those facts. Given the heated exchanges he has had with Nableezy, him calling for a ban as an "uninvolved" administrator is a very serious problem.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 15:53, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

WGF's concerns and proposal for ban were based on uncivil behavior alone. But he seems to have settled for no ban so the argument is now mute. The problem of behavior remains and will likely become more empowered in light of the peculiarly forgiving attitude of AE admins towards the problem. Something I haven't seen with any other editor who violates civility to this degree, and suggests severe prejudice. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 16:14, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

That isnt true, and while it is unsurprising that you persist in making unsupported disparaging claims against others, it isnt remotely constructive. nableezy - 16:22, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

The most constructive measure that I see needed to return to some semblance of good collaboration is to convince you to tone down your behavior. You and I have shown it's possible on the map. I'd like to see you try to remain in such a behavioral space more often. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 16:52, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't think changing his mind after a flood of admins indicate to him that he is overreacting should really be considered a mark in his favor. That he thought he could act as an uninvolved admin in suggesting a ban of Nableezy from AE despite the obvious tensions between the two of them raises serious concerns. If Nableezy files a future AE report WG thinks is wrong and there isn't a flood of admins to convince WG he is overstepping, maybe he will actually impose a hefty ban on Nableezy.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 16:40, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Nableezy himself has said that previous bans have helped him curb his 1RR violations. Whatever it takes for the same in collaborative civil conduct would be constructive and welcome. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 16:52, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Comment by Zero0000

I do not support any actual sanction against WGFinley. However, I wish to record that several times I have been quite startled by the apparent animosity that WGFinley shows towards Nableezy, very little of which seems to be justified by the circumstances, and by the lack of logic displayed by WGFinley when discussing matters related to Nableezy. The AE process should not only be dispassionate, but should appear dispassionate. That is not the case here. I think WGFinley should voluntarily stay away from AE cases involving Nableezy. Zero 22:54, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

WGFINLEY's Response

This is a complaint about a closed AE case. I stated my opinion in the AE case and engaged in discussion with other uninvolved admins. In the end another admin (not me) deemed there was no consensus for action and thus closed the case. I could go on in detail but I had stated I felt what the editor did was wrong but shouldn't be sanctioned for it. This is the purpose of AE: noninvolved admins reviewing, giving their opinions and engaging in discussion.

During the course of the case some editors asked me questions on my talk page and I engaged in discussion but ultimately referred back to WP:AE as the proper place for the discussion. Many times on AE a tactic used by different sides is to game via filibustering, in this case it's repeatedly asking the same question (to get involved in the content dispute), getting an explanation (refusing to get involved in analyzing sources and getting involved in the content dispute), not accepting the explanation and then asking again. In this case this user and supporters feel admins should be researching sources on WP:AE, I believe this draws admins into content disputes and respectfully disagree.

In summary I commented on an AE case and gave my reasons for my opinion, the case was closed without action by another admin. I didn't take any action that requires explanation but it's clear by the volumes on my talk page I didn't ignore the questions, I just didn't provide the answers desired.

--WGFinley (talk) 23:45, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Comment by Nableezy

WGFinley made several demonstrably false comments and refused to answer questions about them. I have outlined the sequence of events at User:Nableezy/sandbox. The claim that he did not ignore the questions asked of him is absurd, he still hasn't answered several basic questions. I dont expect that this will generate anything in terms of uninvolved commentary or any type of action, and Id suggest that this section be hatted in favor of an RFC/U. nableezy - 01:42, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Let me make this clear one final time with no reasonable means of ambiguity: assessing sources, outside of blatant cases (i.e. plagiarism and original research) is a content issue. What the source says, paraphrasing what a source says, how it is cited, whether it is a bonafide secondary source, what meaning the source conveys, whether someone is misrepresenting a source, those are all content issues that are handled through the normal process of editing an article. Admins don't do content disputes, thus, I will not answer your question because it is not for me to decide. --WGFinley (talk) 06:25, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

• I have to disagree there. Misrepresentation of sources is serious misbehaviour that strikes at the heart of collaborative editing anywhere in the encyclopedia, but doubly so in an area under ArbCom sanctions. The two examples cited above are particularly blatant. Kanguole 09:17, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
• You are trying to misrepresent this as a content dispute. The issue is your bad judgement calls related to an editor misrepresenting sources. The content itself is not in question here. You seem to be handwaving to draw attention from your unsatisfactory administrator behavior. YehudaTelAviv64 (talk) 09:20, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
• Against my better judgment, I'll comment on this briefly. Admins do not resolve good-faith content disputes. The qualifier "good-faith" is important: if no reasonable editor well-versed in our policies and practices would disagree on an issue, there's no good-faith dispute. Thus a complaint about misrepresentation or falsification of sources is a conduct issue, not a content issue. Thus WP:Legality of Israeli settlements has been consistently enforced at AE, because no reasonable editor familiar with our practices would have gone against an established consensus determined in a widely participated RfC without establishing a new consensus first. Similarly, a hypothetical editor who repeatedly seizes on a misprint in a travel guide to argue that George Washington was born in 1722 and not 1732 is not participating in a good-faith content dispute and may be sanctioned for misbehavior, even if no source misrepresentation or falsification is involved: no reasonable editor would use a passing statement in a low-quality source like a travel guide, even if otherwise reliable, to argue a point about George Washington's birthday. In my judgment JJG was doing something exactly analogous to that: to argue a hotly disputed point about Israel's borders using a single sentence in a travel guide as a source is not something a reasonable editor would have done. T. Canens (talk) 11:09, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
• I suppose an admin presumably has the individual right to personally regard misrepresentation of sources as a content dispute, although it's also reasonable to see it as WP:OR which "includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position not advanced by the sources". But if that is an admin's personal position, source misrepresentation is outside of their personally defined scope as an admin, there is no reason for them to be looking at AE cases that are based on source misrepresentation. They should leave it to admins who do look at source misrepresentation and sanction editors for it given that is clearly one of the most serious user conduct issue possible in an encyclopedia. Obviously if an admin doesn't regard source misrepresentation as relevant to their activities as an admin, they will never see it as an issue and will never sanction editors at AE who are reported for delibrately misrepresenting sources. It's like a traffic policeman who sees what he knows is a stolen car driving past but doesn't see it as an issue relevant to him because it's not breaking the speed limit. Sean.hoyland - talk 11:38, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

• I was trying to come up with a good example to illustrate the absurdity of WGFinley's behavior, but yours ("It's like a traffic policeman who sees what he knows is a stolen car driving past but doesn't see it as an issue relevant to him because it's not breaking the speed limit.") does the job nicely. YehudaTelAviv64 (talk) 05:03, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Sanction For An Opinion?

I don't understand how I should be subject to review for having a position on a case that was closed with no consensus. I made it very clear early on my position was based on staying out of content disputes and, secondly, I didn't state there should be no action. On the contrary, I stated, " Perhaps an admonishment to use better care and stick to reliable sources in territorial claim articles is in order?." I didn't close the case with no action, another admin did. So basically I am here on AN for a belief, a belief that that action should be taken, just not the action some folks wanted and was eventually concluded with no consensus? Pretty dangerous precedent. --WGFinley (talk) 14:34, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

• Yes, it was closed as "Clearly no admin consensus to do anything", due to your refusal to treat the sourcing issue seriously, and the closer then resigned his bit. I'm not saying you're the only reason the encyclopedia and AE have (temporarily I hope) lost a fine admin, but perhaps you should reflect on your contribution to the situation. Kanguole 14:57, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
• Im sorry, but that is one untruth after another. You arent here because you had an opinion, you are here because you a. made a baldly false statement and repeatedly refused to either acknowledge the error or explain the statement, and b. because you claim that lying about the content of sources is a content dispute. I myself would be willing to put this in the past if you would finally answer some very basic questions, starting with why you wrote I don't see what he did on Mount Hermon other than to point out there's a ski resort there and added a travel guide as source for information on that. in this diff when the user did no such thing and no diff even mentioned a ski resort (except as the title of a source). There are 2 or 3 questions after that, but if you could finally answer that one I think we may actually get somewhere. nableezy - 15:13, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
• There have been other concerns raised here about your conduct with regards to Nableezy in general, not just by me, but by admin Zero. What Nableezy provided above, together with your comments on my AE case, also suggests you have a bad habit of not properly reviewing the more complicated cases on AE before suggesting action. How exactly do you address those concerns?--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 15:44, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

To be clear, though I am an admin I edit in this topic area so I am "involved". However, I send by the remarks I made as an ordinary editor. Zero 00:48, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

• Wow, I didn't realize that there are any admins who actually recuse themselves when it's appropriate. I should spend less time in AE. YehudaTelAviv64 (talk) 04:59, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

• Oh please WGFinley, you are making it sound like your free speech rights are under attack here. For the sake of argument, I will give you the second diff (Popular Mechanics) which could be perceived as a "content dispute", but the first diff, there is no way you can call that a content dispute. When an editor cuts and pastes a portion of of a sentence, when the the end of the sentence said, "is actually in Syrian Territory", you are falsifying the source. Full-stop. -asad (talk) 16:22, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

One more time, I said he should be admonished and instructed as to sources. If you want to take me to Arbcom for saying a user should be admonished as opposed to sanctioned then you do as you see fit. One would think were I so fully off my rocker I would have been easily dismissed and my opinion written off as nonsense. Yet it was closed with no action. --WGFinley (talk) 02:50, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

You still seem to be actively avoiding answering straight questions such as those by Nableezy just above. un☯mi 03:10, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Comment by un☯mi

Ignoring everything else, I find the idea of source misrepresentation = content dispute, of a sort that AE should ignore, very disappointing. un☯mi 09:31, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Without commenting on the case at hand, that is correct. Misrepresenting sources is a user conduct issue, sanctionable at AE. --Mkativerata (talk) 09:36, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Many Arbcom cases revolve around WP:Tendentious editing. It should be self-evident that AE has the right to sanction such behaviour just as much as it does violations of WP:3RR.--Peter cohen (talk) 15:18, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Just a reminder that if parties wish to ask that an administrator no longer be allowed to enforce AE sanctions (in general or in specific areas) the correct method is to ask the Committee. I'm not going to comment on the specific close here, just a procedural note. SirFozzie (talk) 19:55, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

What about requesting that a specific Admin not be allowed to adjudicate WP:ARBPIA? I thought the correct place was WP:A/E, but I was told it was not so. -asad (talk) 20:06, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Correct, that should go to the Committee. SirFozzie (talk) 20:49, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

To remove an administrator from Arbitration Enforcement who says assessing sources, outside of blatant cases (i.e. plagiarism and original research) is a content issue... (and) admin's don't do content disputes has to go to some committee?

He's basically said he's not competent to determine whether misrepresentation (a type of lying and fraud, often used to skew content and that should be easy to detect) has taken place. Madness.Bali ultimate (talk) 21:24, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

After looking at WGFinley's contributions to the AE: In my opinion, this admin's behaviour was outrageous. I have not looked at Nableezy's responses to WGFinley (just noticed that there are many), but in my opinion a lot is excusable in response to WGFinley's extreme IDHT behaviour that can only be explained with bad faith or extreme incompetence. WGFinley should consider themselves lucky if the only result of this is that Arbcom removes them from AE on ARBPIA matters. Hans Adler 01:26, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm going to bring this up on the ArbCom mailing list myself, so let's see what other arbs think. SirFozzie (talk) 01:40, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

If you'd like to look into other administrators that have problems with misrepresentation (i.e., lying) let me know. You can start here: (RFC on User:Ash) showing he misrepresented sources, before he "vanished" and became User:Fae, now an admin and Wikimedia UK board member.Bali ultimate (talk) 02:13, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. Is it just my impression, or does Arbcom always get a huge heap of work right before Christmas? Hans Adler 08:42, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Comment by Cptnono

I will not comment on the merits since I could not do so without violating a topic ban. Attempting to remove an admin from AE as he is involved in making a decision could set a dangerous precedent. For example, I think that Timotheus Canens has proven that his decisions are lopsided and responds to off Misplaced Pages communications from one "side" while ignoring the other. I was actually considering starting a discussion on his actions after a very familiar exchange (mentioned on this page). I do not think Wgfinley has come close to that sort of error. It is easy to take away the privilege of cleaning the project when an admin has shown an obvious bias. Wgfinley has not shown that bias. I would ago as far as saying that he has shown restraint when attacked. Gatoclass and Malik have both been honest enough to no longer act as uninvolved administrators at AE. They have been in disputes and it is clear so they acknowledge that (it is appreciated). Timotheus Canens and Wgfinley have not acknowledged any political leanings. So far, Wgfinley has only acknowledged that he sees problematic editing from certain parties, including myself. That is what an admin at AE is supposed to do. I think both admins should consider the behavior of Sandstein and AGK. AGK has actually blocked me and I still think he does it close to right. If Wgfinley wants to take care of business then we should appreciate it as long as it is not biased. Cptnono (talk) 03:55, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Just for the record Cptnono, I have never attempted to act as an uninvolved admin in the IP topic area at AE. I have occasionally made a post in the uninvolved admins section - usually only when it is late in the day and I am concerned that my comment might be otherwise overlooked. And I've only ever done that when I'm sure the other admins know of my involved status (which ought to be obvious since I mostly post in the involved section). I have never tried to adjudicate an AE dispute in the topic area. So I hope that clarifies things a bit.

With regard to your comments about T. Canens, I think he has generally been an excellent adjudicator at AE, and am quite sure his conduct would stand up to scrutiny from the Committee or from the broader community. Regarding WGFinley, while I'm somewhat reluctant to add to the chorus of discontent above, I have made no secret of my dissatisfaction with his narrow interpretation of what issues may be adjudicated at AE. More specifically however, I have been concerned recently by what seems to me an excessive focus by WGF on Nableezy to the exclusion of other factors, to the point that I myself have been considering requesting him to recuse from cases involving Nableezy. In the latest case for example, it appeared to me that WGF was attempting to act as both plaintiff and adjudicator, complaining about Nableezy's "insults" to himself while also attempting to adjudicate the case. It's not entirely clear to me what protocol should be followed in such situations, but I think if I felt someone was behaving in an unacceptably uncivil manner toward me in those circumstances, I would probably want to start my own case against that person and allow uninvolved admins to make the judgement. Gatoclass (talk) 09:51, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Sigh. Cptnono has already twice had a go at T Canens in wider discussions and is WP:FORUMSHOP. He has been fixated on T. Canens because Tim inconveniently sees through the nonense from some of Cptnono's political allies.

Here we have an attack on Tim for blocking a copyright-violator who was harassing those trying to clear up his mess. The problem for Cptnono? The copyright-violator shares his POV therefore the block must be a bad thing. Result? The block is overwhelmingly endorsed. Here we have a weasly-worded attack at WT:RFAR. Result? Arbs say Tim has not resigned broom under a cloud.

Cptnono is continuing to harass Tim even after he has redigned the broom. I think it is about time he is hit by a WP:BOOMERANG. Are people happy to deal with it here or should I go to AN/I?--Peter cohen (talk) 20:03, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Has he resigned under a cloud? It appears he has looked at some of his recent admin actions and perhaps thought a few of them warranted taking a step back? I don't support any boomerang - at least its all out in the open , without off wiki requests for action. My position is that after looking at the users contributions and other users comments - I do not support User:Wgfinley or User:Timotheus Canens continuing to administrate in the hotly disputed Middle east topic sector. Neutrality or at least, a "perception of neutrality" is a requirement of an administrators ongoing ability to action complaints in a topic area and as we have hundreds of administrators available to step up to the mark, there is no need to insist on a disputed administrators continued activity in a disputed area. Youreallycan (talk) 20:20, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

read my comment closer, Cohen. And if pointing out what admins should and should not do in a topic area while still using civility is a concern for you then I have know idea how to make you feel better about it. There was zero incivility in my comment that was designed to point out ways to make things better. Did he "give up the broom"? I was not aware of that but I do wish him the happiest of editing if he is focusing on that instead of the Israel v Palestine issue at AE. Sorry your page isn't FA anymore, Cohen.Cptnono (talk) 07:27, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

and if you misread my initial statement about the actual issue let me know. I gave Tim a heads up on his talk page to be polite. I felt at one time there was ample evidence to get Tim off of AE. He has since modified his behavior. An admin is open to scrutiny. Let Tim fight his own battles and stop crying wolf over a pretty tame comment. If he asks for why I feel he should not be at AE I will let him know. Until then, this isn;t a discussion about Tim. I mentioned him since it was a similar situation. Pointing fingers isn't how things get done and you all should feel a little bad for picking up on the secondary point while ignoring the primary reasoning behind my comment. Like a bunch of bratty kids.Cptnono (talk) 07:36, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Comment by BorisG

Yawn. Most users commenting here are involved in the topic and thus their views can and should be discounted. If you ignore them, not much is left. I will refrain from commenting on substance since I can be considered involved as well. - BorisG (talk) 14:59, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

A person's comment should only be discounted if he or she is not raising a good point. Just because a person is seen as having a personal reason for a complaint does not mean that complaint is invalid. Were that approach taken everywhere there would really be no point in having a system for reporting violations or perceived violations of policy.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 17:26, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

No info, just advertising hidden in external links to included references.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

I first ran across a disturbing situation here, when checking the 'Root' reference at page bottom, it seemed enlightening. What I received was unsolicited advertising; I did not find any content relative to the reason for looking. What should I do -- leave the source and delete the link? It seems more your problem than mine, since the external links to 'dinsdoc.com' have 106 instances, based on a search in Misplaced Pages. The several I checked all led to the same bitter advertising end, and no info. Regards, CasualObserver'48 (talk) 09:19, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Ew. Probably/possibly the link used to be an online copy of that document. But, yep... I will remove all those links. Thanks,  Chzz  ►  09:28, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't have time now, so I'll make a public todo list: there are a few more shown in LinkSearch. Johnuniq (talk) 10:04, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

I think I've fixed almost all of them; I searched on "dinsdoc.com" and located 61 live articles. I've removed links from all those (I think) - I will check it again tomorrow, once the search indexing has caught up. In almost all cases, the link was just a "convenience link" to a published reliable source (mostly, very old books) - so I was able to simply remove the link without it affecting verifiability. My contribs between my first reply and this one will show the edits I made.

Admins, please consider blacklisting the website.  Chzz  ►  10:19, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

@Johnuniq all the links showing in that search you gave, now, are not live articles - so I don't necessarily see them as any real problem.  Chzz  ►  10:20, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Good, however there are three articles left: London Company and Mike Easley and William Gaston. Johnuniq (talk) 10:33, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Now done. Not sure why I missed those. But I will check it again, after indexing...tomorrow, or something. Cheers,  Chzz  ►  11:20, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

@CasualObserver'48, I'm just curious: what did you mean by, "It seems more your problem than mine"? I mean, I was quite happy to do it but, I'm just an editor, same as you. This isn't actually an admin thing at all (apart from, possibly, adding it to the blacklist).  Chzz  ►  12:29, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

And even that is more a "special person who knows regex" thing. I'm an admin and I wouldn't touch the blacklist with a 10ft pole. Protonk (talk) 23:29, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Please excuse the late reply. I had searched considerably for a more appropriate place to make this post, but couldn't find a better one, considering its gravity and my unfamiliarity at such lofty administrative heights. I then checked this post after a bit, saw the rapid positive reply, the start of corrective action along lines had I considered, and felt I had done the right thing, given the circumstances unfamiliar to me. Where would be the best place to post such an instance? It was left there, because I had since realized my own introduction of an error from the previous day, which had to be corrected first; see my contribs for the 15th, it was a busy day. It seemed "more your problem than mine", based on my lack of familiarity and credentials but also my possession of an archaically slow connection, which requires considerable waiting between edit, preview and save. My day grew into apparent yak shaving of two new redirects with contextual links; while noting the problem truly was important, correcting 100+ related links seemed too much actuality involved for this unfamiliar volunteer barber. Regards, CasualObserver'48 (talk) 02:23, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

I think you posted it in the right place. Chzz just took exception to the line "It seems more your problem than mine". And I mentioned that I, as an admin, still have no idea how to edit the blacklist. I can post a message to the blacklist request page. I don't think he or I intended to upbraid you or make you feel bad. Protonk (talk) 05:01, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

CasualObserver'48, sure, no problem at all. I didn't mean anything by my comment, it honestly was curiosity. Thanks for explaining; it's all good. Your posting here worked, so clearly it was a good move :-) There are no hits for "dinsdoc" in any live articles now . Next time, WP:ANI might be better than AN, for a specific issue that needs an admin. WP:HD works well, too, for 'fast response'. Thanks for bringing it up for attention, best,  Chzz  ►  07:57, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

I've logged a request to add it to the blacklist, . The link is no longer in use on any article-space pages . I think this is completed, so I'm marking it resolved.  Chzz  ►  08:17, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Premium Deck Series: Graveborn

I tried to redirect this article to Magic:_The_Gathering as failing WP:PRODUCT, but its saying it is administrator protected. Gaijin42 (talk) 19:56, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Rather than a redirect to the main article, how about a merged article of all 3 Premium Deck Series? I'm looking at the other ones in that "Class" according to the template and all of them are extrordinarily stub like. Hasteur (talk) 21:42, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Even together, I dont think they really qualify, but 1 worthless stub is better than 3. Question remains : why is it protected? Gaijin42 (talk) 21:46, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Premium Deck Series: Graveborn isn't protected and never was. What error message are you seeing? --Carnildo (talk) 00:55, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Probably a caching error, where it would a "view source" tab rather than an "edit" tab; used to happen to me quite frequently - not so much anymore. --64.85.220.17 (talk) 13:22, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Richard Arthur Norton: Revisiting topic ban; Should it be removed or made indefinite?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

There is overwhelming agreement that RAN's topic ban should indeed be extended. There are numerous editors on both sides of the original proposal; many are in support of a fixed extension of the ban, rather than the proposed indefinite extension (though there's no apparent consensus as to what an appropriate fixed period would be), and a significant portion of editors are in support of a full site ban. Overall, however, the consensus of this discussion supports that Richard Arthur Norton's topic ban (from creating new articles and from performing page moves) is extended indefinitely. As always, "indefinite" does not necessarily equal "permanent", and this topic ban can be revisited at some point in the future. Swarm 04:07, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

In closing the discussion of Richard Arthur Norton's topic ban, rather than imposing an indefinite ban as many argued I suggested a one-month ban that should be revisited at the end of that period. I said that "If Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) has shown that he understands the issues and has put effort into dealing with them, then I see no reason why the ban should continue; if not, it can be made indefinite."

The month is now up (and RAN is busy creating new content). To kick-start the discussion, let me give as balanced an evaluation as possible...

The month has been rocky. For some time, RAN was not very responsive to queries and discussion on his talk page. Then after repeated near (and some actual) infringements of the terms of his ban, I brought the case back to WP:AN. On the basis of that second discussion, I gave RAN a final warning. And he duly had to be blocked a day or so later.

On the other side of the ledger, his responsiveness and communication has improved. He is helping to deal with the copyvio problems to be found in the articles that he has created, if somewhat grudgingly and not in a manner that is to everyone's satisfaction.

In his own assessment, the copyvio problems that his articles present are not particularly significant. This, I think, understates the issue, perhaps quite drastically. But he is making progress, if slowly and perhaps not as thoroughly as one would want.

I should also say personally that I have tried to give Richard as little grief as possible, as I have no interest in hounding active and productive editors off the project. If anything, I have tried to protect him from some editors who are occasionally tempted to "pile on." But his behavior has, in my view, been too often exasperating. At times, his actions and attitude do not help his cause at all.

I put the matter to the community. Do we believe that Richard "has shown that he understands the issues and has put effort into dealing with them"? If so, let us put an end to his editing restrictions. If not, I suggest we make his ban indefinite. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 08:27, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

One more thing: in response to a request for clarification, I said that the burden of proof should be on the community rather than Richard. So if there is no consensus in this discussion, the default should be that the ban is not renewed. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 08:38, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Please see User talk:Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )#Did you just recreate a page with copyrighted information? If he indeed created a page with copyrighted info right after this topic ban, then I think that he has blown his last chance and we just need to indef block him. Copyright violations are one of the more serious concerns on Misplaced Pages (less severe than attack pages and so on, but pretty serious nevertheless), and if after all this time and with an ongoing CCI he still doesn't get it, then I don't believe that anything will help. Fram (talk) 08:44, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

The page is clearly labelled © 2006 Arthur Frank Wertheim. All Rights Reserved. - so this is an editor who has added copyvios in the past, has been warned and blocked over it and now is again creating copyvios while drinking in the last chance saloon? What discussion is actually needed? --Cameron Scott (talk) 08:52, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Unless I'm missing something big, yes, a full indef ban is in order. User has gleefully violated copyright and other IP rights on a regular basis, showing little to no improvement as to his behaviour, even going at it again (Fram has just brought up a very recent and very relevant infringement issue). CharlieEchoTango (contact) 08:55, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Fram's link is rather persuasive. I will wait for Richard to respond before making an opinion, but on the surface this looks very bad. Ed  09:04, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Richard has continued to edit without a response, so I believe it's time for a indefinite site ban. Ed  23:42, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

With his reasonable response, I think an ban extension is warranted. Ed  05:32, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

• I have notified the participants at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive228#Richard Arthur Norton copyright violations about this discussion. Cunard (talk) 09:03, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Thanks for that. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 09:08, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

• Just for the record, the material pointed out by Fram had previously been inserted in the old, now deleted version of the article not by the RAN account but by an IP (I have no idea whether it's RAN's or somebody else), in this edit: . Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:11, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

• Comment. I had high hopes for this action and tried to steer clear of any direct interaction with or direct criticism of Richard so I could just observe how it worked. I've seen Richard becoming marginally more responsive to user inquiries, but he seemed to not "get" some of the restrictions placed upon him during the month, and had to be blocked after repeated violations following warnings. Then the month expires—he begins creating new content without checking that it's OK to do so—and promptly creates an article with a blatant copyright violation (!). This demonstrates that close to nothing was learned, not even caution. I agree with an indefinite ban on creating new content (including redirects, page moves, files, etc., since those have been problemtic in the past too). Good Ol’factory 09:14, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
• Permanent site ban. It's goodnight Irene. WP would obviously be better off without him. --Mkativerata (talk) 09:15, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
• Support indefinite topic ban the temporary topic ban was a 2nd chance where Richard was deliberately non responsive, and pushed the boundaries in creating articles to somehow test how patient admins would be. Also he seriously underestimates the copyvio problems he created. Whilst he has improved his responsiveness, this was only done after repeated reasonable requests from others. no new articles or redirects. Further boundary testing should be indefinite block.LibStar (talk) 09:23, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose The Orpheum Circuit page in question is described as a "Media Kit". My understanding is that material provided in such kits is expected to be reproduced in the media - that is the point of the kit. Perhaps this is a factor or mitigation? Anyway, if this material was originally introduced by another editor, RAN does not seem especially culpable and so I oppose a permanent ban for this incident. Warden (talk) 09:25, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
  • The page was deleted as a copyvio. For that reason I also refused to send him a copy of it. He got a copy of it anyway, and used material from a page deleted as a copyvio to create a new page. Surprise; it is also a copyvio. Doing this is bad under any circumstances, doing this when you are the subject of a CCI and a topic ban against creating material has just finished is worse. Even if you take the position that we can freely reuse "media kit" excerpts (I don't), it still needed attribution as being text copied from that website, not text sourced to that website. If he still doesn't understand proper attribution or the difference between copied text and sourced but rewritten text, then at least the topic ban needs to remain in place. Fram (talk) 09:42, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
    • The deletion messages for the page in question are:

08:59, 16 December 2011 CharlieEchoTango (talk | contribs) deleted "Orpheum Circuit" ‎ (G12: Unambiguous copyright infringement: Copyvio from various sources, including other Misplaced Pages articles and www.vaudevillewars.com/media-kit-excerpts.html)

14:27, 13 December 2011 Fram (talk | contribs) deleted "Orpheum Circuit" ‎ (G12: Unambiguous copyright infringement: http://scripophily.stores.yahoo.net/orciin19.html Taken from Oldcompany.com. Copyvio present from earliest version of this article until now)

05:46, 4 June 2011 Vegaswikian (talk | contribs) deleted "Orpheum Circuit" ‎ (G6: Deleted to make way for move)

I'm not sure what was happening on 4 June - perhaps that's irrelevant. What I notice about the entry for 13 Dec is that the source cited (scripophily) is different from the one subsequently complained about (vaudevillewars). As the vaudevillewars media kit material was not clearly identified as being the source of the trouble on 13 Dec and was not added by RAN in the first place, then he might not know that that piece would be troublesome. Warden (talk) 11:15, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

I appreciate that you don't have access to the diffs, but RAN's revival of the page is not a from-scratch recreation: it is a minor edit of the 9 November revision, and its largest piece of prose is the same direct lift of copyrighted content as in the deleted revision. RAN cannot under any circumstances be unaware of the potential for copyright problems on this particular article as he was the original author in 2006, starting the page with a 6kb direct copy of the oldcompany.com page. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 11:46, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

The fact that it was part of a media kit is irrelevant (the media does not copy and paste it, they used it to summarize what is in the book), it's clearly labeled as copyrighted, it's clearly a copyvio when used here in the way that it has been used. If this was a first time offender, I might be interested in mitigation but for a serial copyright violator coming off a ban? no chance. --Cameron Scott (talk) 09:48, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

The media routinely regurgitate PR material of this kind with minimal changes. I wrote an article about the practice: churnalism. Warden (talk) 11:16, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

We are not clock-punching press workers. More importantly, we are not insulated from action which may be taken against us for copyright infringement by a higher chain of command signing our edits off. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 11:48, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

As I understand it, the only people with legal responsibility are those who add content (RAN) and those who use it (the readers). I'm not sure what you mean by sign-off and chain-of-command - please give an example. The only case I'm aware of is the NPG and, in that case, the galley went after the editor, not the "chain-of-command". Warden (talk) 12:49, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

• Permanent site ban - I'm coming at this cold (to the best of my knowledge I haven't commented on this matter before - someone let me know if I have) but looking at the information here and reading previous threads, the guy is a serial copyviolator who's behaviour has not changed. To prevent further copyvios, he should be banned, not blocked, banned. --Cameron Scott (talk) 09:48, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
• Valuable contributor. Extend the ban 6 months. Kittybrewster ☎ 10:56, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

So if someone is valuable, they get a pass on copyvios? Even if they seem unable to stop? --Cameron Scott (talk) 10:58, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

In my view he diesn't like Being Controlledd and is therefore taking the piss slightly. Kittybrewster ☎ 11:01, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

By creating a copyright violating page? I wouldn't call that "slightly"... Fram (talk) 11:06, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

• RAN's last comment in the previous discussion was that the instances cites as copyvio were limited in number (eight, to be precise) and in the past. To move on from there by recreating a deleted article using material directly lifted from a copyrighted source pretty much flatly contradicts any assertion that he's learned from this. If we can't trust an editor not to violate our rules on copyright then it's difficult to see how that editor can be left to participate here. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 11:15, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
• Indef block him. We don't need someone to copypasta PR material, copyrighted or not. That's hardly a valuable contribution. Thanks, ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 11:20, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
• Support extension of topic ban to indef This discussion really has nothing to do with blocks (I'd hope people are reading a little more clearly) ... this is a revisit to the original topic ban discussion. RAN can be a valuable contributor. RAN has been somewhat helpful in fixing his problem articles. Media kits can never be copied verbatim as they are copyrighted, and so this most recent incident shows that they still do not fully understand copyright and the legal ramifications to this project. An indef topic ban can always be removed - there's no good reason to block - unless you're in a punitive mood, AND/OR he willfully re-violates copyright policies now that he's been corrected on the use of media kits (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 11:52, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
  • This discussion has everything to do with blocks. While the OP has suggested some possible courses of action, other people are free to propose different solutions, either immediately or based (as in this case) on further information. You don't have to agree that a block or ban are in order, but please don't try to dismiss the opinions of others as if they have anything to do with reading skills. Fram (talk) 12:12, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
• RAN didn't respect the sanction while it was in place and eventually (after many warnings and clarifications) had to be blocked for violating it. He still doesn't seem to appreciate the scale of the problem with this contributions: the CCI now has 62 of his edits tagged as containing copyright infringement, far more than the 15 he claimed previously. Fram's evidence is extremely disturbing. In light of this the bare minimum acceptable to prevent copyright violations from being introduced is an indefinite extension of the sanction, if not something stronger. Hut 8.5 11:58, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
• Permanent site ban. I suggest the participants in this discussion read this article, particularly the sections about "red flags", §512 (h) and §512 (i). If we don't ban him now, the WMF will be legally obliged to when they get a takedown notice from a relevant copyright holder. This ban is not only for Misplaced Pages's own good, but also RAN's. MER-C 12:48, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

• That article states that "It is clear from the statute and legislative history that an OSP has no duty to monitor its service or affirmatively seek infringing material on its system.". If a copyright holder thinks there's a problem, they send a takedown notice and all we have to do is react to that. All pressure here seems to be from our own amateur detectives, not the actual copyright holders. What are the stats on takedown notices received by Misplaced Pages? My impression is that the legal issues are being exaggerated. Warden (talk) 13:00, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

• Violating the law isn't OK if you don't get caught. Hut 8.5 13:30, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

• People seem far too free with the accusation of copyright violation. Per WP:CRIMINAL, "A living person accused of a crime is not guilty unless and until this is decided by a court of law.". Copyright violation is especially complex to decide because of concepts such as fair dealing. In the stubby cases that we have here, merger doctrine might be an adequate defense and it would really require a hearing to determine the outcome of each case. Warden (talk) 13:46, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

• I wouldn't wish a court hearing on any Wikipedian. MER-C 14:05, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
• (edit conflict)What you're saying here is just irrelevant. RAN has repeatedly violated copyright. He has been caught copying material not compatible with our licences on numerous (>60) occasions, either through direct copying or through close paraphrasing (which is equally unacceptable). The idea that we cannot take action against serial copyright violators if a court has not ruled on the matter is ludicrous and the notability guidelines for criminals have no bearing whatsoever. Hut 8.5 14:07, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

• RAN is entitled to the same protections that we give any living person. For you to declare that he has "repeatedly violated copyright" is an improper personal attack verging on a legal threat. What we commonly do in such cases in BLPs is use words such as alleged and so we should be using more tentative language such as "has added content which might risk copyright infringment" or "has created articles which seem too close to their sources". Warden (talk) 14:26, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

• RAN has repeatedly violated copyright. Whether or not he has infringed copyright would have to be determined by a court of law. We aren't a court of law and are only concerned with our own site policies. (ETA: In case what I mean is not clear, I explained it at more length here.) --Moonriddengirl 14:47, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

• Permanent ban unless he comes up with an extremely convincing explanation, in which case a temporary ban might be sufficient. Hans Adler 13:17, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
• Support fixed extension

This is a difficult issue.

I do not support a permanent site ban. On the other hand, (still shaking my head over Orpheum Circuit), it is clear that RAN hasn't fully understood what is acceptable and what is not.

However, I do see significant progress, and I would prefer some option that lets him contribute.

Early on, RAN was decidedly unhelpful. I made request, and posed questions, only to receive...nothing.

That changed. Over the last week or two, everytime I've posted a problem to his talk page, he's responded, and has resolved the issue. Everytime. Recent examples here and here

If it wasn't for the Orpheum Circuit incident, I'd be lobbying hard for removal of the ban. I still hope, possibly naively, that RAN has simply developed a bad habit I see in many new editors—thinking they can copy material into an editor, and massage it into acceptable wording. I posted some advice advice, that, if taken, might solve that problem. The advice is less than an hour old, so it is far too early to see if it helps.

My preference would be for a multi-month extensive, and/or some sort of mentorship. There's too much potential good to simply shut the door.--SPhilbrickT 13:25, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

• WTF, Richard?: Do you have a deathwish? Fram's example of Orpheum Circuit troubles me greatly.--Milowent • 13:38, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
• Can someone provide more detail about the Orpheum Circuit article? I've seen claims that RAN added it originally and others that it was originally by an IP. If he worked from a version that wasn't deleted for copyright claims, what is the basis that he should have known there was a copyright problem with that text? I get the sense that you admins largely agree he must have been aware of the problem, but no one has clearly expressed how you know that. Details please? Hobit (talk) 13:47, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

• Richard created the article in 2006. The history is complex because there was a history merge at some point with a page that had originally been a redirect developing simultaneously and eventually being folded together, but I believe this particular copyvio was added to the article by an IP in December 2009. What surprises me here is that Richard knows at this point that Misplaced Pages content is not public domain. I don't understand why he would add text authored by somebody else, knowing that he cannot use it without attribution. For that reason alone, he should have known there was a copyright problem with the text. :( Either one of two things happened here: (a) he ignored the attribution requirement and knowingly used somebody else's text, or (b) he believed he had authored it himself and did not check the source to see if there were copyright issues before putting it back. Either of these is worrisome to me, under the circumstances. --Moonriddengirl 14:01, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

¨The page was deleted by me because it contained copyright violations from the start in 2006 right until the moment of deletion. He asker Sphilbrick a copy of the page promising "I will rewrite, but need the categories and lede and links to other articles" (emphasis mine). However, he did not really rewrite it, just slightly modified it (removing most of the first paragraph). Admins can see here the diff between the deleted and recreated page. Fram (talk) 15:03, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

• Support fixed ban extension per User:Sphilbrick. Evidently, he has been making great strides recently. He's motivated and productive, and I'd like to see him channeled into problem-free contributions. Sphilbrick, you mention potential mentoring, and I think that's a great idea. Would you be willing to take that on? --Moonriddengirl 14:10, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
  • In short, yes. He and I do not see eye to eye on the inclusions of long quotes in cites, but I think we can resolve that. On other issues, I think we can work together.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 19:22, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
• Support renewing the ban indefinitely; and I wouldn't look askance at a site ban either. RAN is an unrepentant serial copyright violator, and his continued participation would require constant monitoring for the foreseeable future. I can think of hundreds of more productive things those efforts could be directed towards. — Coren  15:30, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

• It's rather disappointing, considering that recently he had become more communicative and cooperative, that he is back editing articles now instead of participating here. Some explanation of what happened and how he plans on avoiding repeat occurrences would be preferable. Fram (talk) 15:37, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Agreed. There are a lot of editors willing to give a lot of 2nd chances, but he has to actually take those opportunities. It does not appear that he is willing to do so, which is unfortunate. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 15:59, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
• Support indefinite site ban with possible sole acceptable task of working through his own CCI and rewriting old copyvios, then letting others assess whether the copyvio is fixed. We have a huge copyvio backlog and no capacity to constantly monitor his diffs - that energy should be spent reviewing his old potential copyvio diffs. There is no reason why we should let him continue and waste other volunteers' energy. I was opposed to allowing him to continue content contributions in the first instance. He made his mess, now he should be helping clean it up--not creating new potential messes. This would also have the added benefit of making it 100% clear to him what is acceptable and what isn't. Calliopejen1 (talk) 16:02, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

• End ban on article creation - Richard A. Norton is one of the best content-creators at WP, bar none. In my opinion CCI has wasted a full month chasing their tails trying to demonstrate that he is a serial plagiarist, all the while the backlog of legitimate cases has grown as volunteers wasted time parsing RAN's edits. As far as I can determine from the several times I've checked in on the investigation over the past month, they've found a number of minor party fouls, mostly relating to improper footnoting or use of out-of-copyright, pubic domain sources, and the use of quotational "glossing" in overlong footnotes, but nothing to indicate that Richard is not cognizant of copyright law or that he has committed systemic offenses in violation of it. If one makes 35,000 edits or whatever, there will be a few that don't stand up under a magnifying glass... To hear braying for a "permanent site ban" over one instance of a restored close paraphrase — about which RAN has not spoken here or anywhere else, so far as I know — is WP Drama Board Hysteria at its worst. To my mind there are two committed CCI volunteers, Moonriddengirl and SPhilbrick, who are in the best position to lend advice here, because they actually have invested big time doing investigative work. Both seem to be in "expand the ban on article creation for a fixed period camp," the latter narrowly avoiding advice of the same course of action that I advise here. The fact is that RAN is fully aware of copyright law and is NOT a problem. The more time is wasted microanalyzing his content is more time taken away from the ACTUAL copyright problems at WP. And that's a fact. Carrite (talk) 16:06, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

And, just in case you missed it because she didn't use bolding the way some other people are using it against Richard Norton, here's a line from Moonriddengirl above about the "infamous" copyright violation that has people screaming for the right to use their pitchforks on him... "I believe this particular copyvio was added to the article by an IP in December 2009..." Carrite (talk) 16:24, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

• • Sigh. The copyvio was inserted in 2009. The article was deleted for copyvio twice in 2011. And then RAN, in full consciousness of the existing copyvio claim on the paragraph in question, included it with only the most trivial changes when he reinstated the article last week. This is all to do with an article, by the way, which was wholly copyvio (of RAN's own making) when originally created. The time wasted here is not RAN's; it's the community's, and shame on anyone trying to flip that around. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 16:41, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

• Support extension of topic ban - There still appear to be some ongoing issues with RAN's content creation. Some users have commented that he is slowly getting the message and starting to help clean up his prior content creation. As per User BWilkins. Also as per User Hobit after three months we can look at developments and consider a a relaxation.Youreallycan (talk) 16:36, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
• Waiting for a response from RAN but leaning toward a 3 month extension of the topic ban. Given Moonriddengirl's answer to my question, I think we continue to have significant problems. But I'd rather we wait until we get a response from RAN (or, say, a few days pass with no response). Hobit (talk) 16:45, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
• Support indef extension of topic ban or a site ban if consensus prefers that option. With maximum attention being paid to his edits Richard has managed to restore copyrighted material yet again in the Orpheum Circuit case. The most logical explanation is that he thinks the concerns about copyright are overblown. I hope he will correct me if I'm wrong, but he doesn't seem to care. The fact that he had to be blocked during the month of scrutiny is not a good omen for any future cooperation. EdJohnston (talk) 17:06, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
• Support extension of topic ban" for 3 months. (Pending response by RAN). Per User:Sphilbrick, mentoring by some willing and capable editor would be advisable. Edison (talk) 18:11, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Several users have endeavored to work with Richard during his topic ban, yet, here we are. You can't teach someone who doesn't want to learn. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:19, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

• Support extension. If MRG has faith, then I do as well--though it's getting more difficult to assume the best. Drmies (talk) 19:31, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
• Support indef extension of topic ban as a bare minimum. Obviously, the one month ban was not effective in curbing the problem. RAN has been told repeatedly how seriously the community (this is not about copyright law despite the arguments about it above) takes copyvios, and his actions make it perfectly clear that he does not care. Extending the ban is the least we should do to re-enforce to him the seriousness of the situation. Would also support a full site ban as this was obviously done deliberately. We don't need that, despite the positive contributions he has made in the past. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:30, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
• Extend, possibly indefinitely. I would be interested to see Richard Arthur Norton's justification for this act though. pablo 20:46, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
• Site ban. The user shows no indication that he acknowledges the problem or will help clean it up. Just last month I followed one of his edits and found that he was burnishing an article he'd previously created from a copyio. He made no effort to remove the copyvio. His continued participation here would be a net negative, requiring significant oversight by other volunteers. We have had experience with serial plagiarists, including Primetime (talk · contribs), who believe that their "contributions" are vital to the project. They are incorrigible. If RAN had made any real effort to correct his plagiarism in the past month then an extended topic ban would have been a good option. However it's clear that he intends to leave it to others to clean up his mess.   Will Beback  talk  20:59, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
• Support extension for one year. RAN doesn't seem to take this seriosuly at all. Reyk _YO! 21:15, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
• Question for users supporting extension of current topic ban If RAN should not be permitted to create new articles, why should he be permitted to add content to existing articles? (Or am I misunderstanding the scope of the current topic ban?) Calliopejen1 (talk) 22:00, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
• Support extension for one year or 18 months (December 2012 or June 2013). The user doesn't to take this seriosuly at all for this. --Katarighe (talk) 23:30, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
• Support extension though not indefinite but strongly reject any suggestion of a site ban. Richard Arthur Norton can be a very valuable editor and I'm sure even his sharpest critics know this. I also sincerely hope that RAN will increase his participation in the cleanup effort and acknowledge that given the circumstances, he needs to be much more careful when paraphrasing. It's in fact more than reasonable for others to expect him to be close to irreproachable in that respect. Pichpich (talk) 23:41, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
• partial support Why not block him for three months? Looking at the block log I don't see many blocks which have lasted longer than a few days without being reversed (I have no idea if the reversals were appropriate or not). In cases like this, a 3 month block which is actually sustained might serve the function of an indefinite ban without foreclosing the possibility of improvement. Protonk (talk) 00:03, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
• Support extension for a year, at least. I'm not optimistic it will effect a new appreciation of our copyright policies, but will defer to SPhilbrick and Moonriddengirl on the wisdom of trying it in lieu of a flat-out site ban. 28bytes (talk) 00:15, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

I have been going through my earliest contributions and have been adding references and rewording any material directly cut and pasted. The count of articles where I cut and paste or didn't use a reference may be about 20 or 30 contributions of 120,000 edits, mostly from 2005-2007. I want to thank everyone who helped find them. I am about half-way through and will need another 30 days to complete. The problem at Orpheum Circuit is regrettable, I rewrote the portion that Fram pointed out as being a cut and paste from scriptophily but did not change a paragraph that was not from that website. Problems like that could be avoided if Fram would remove any cut and paste material instead of deleting an entire article. It would be better to delete any copy and pasted material or material that is insufficiently paraphrased, or stub the article to the lede and then contact me. This preserves the categories and the lede and the references. I would like to continue to work with SPhilbrick as my mentor. He has been very helpful at both finding problems and with helping me fix problems. I would support another 30 days of not creating new articles so I can finish going through my contributions. Blocking me will prevent me from doing the work that needs to be done. The 20 problems should not negate the over 1,500 other entries I have created. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 01:34, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Richard, is there any reason why you cannot make removing your plagiarism your sole editing priority until it has been cleaned up? Looking at your recent contribution history, it looks like it's your lowest priority and that you are leaving it to others to fix. If you can make a commitment to fixing the plagiarism then I'd change my !vote.   Will Beback  talk  04:04, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

I am not sure how you came to that conclusion. Since November 14, I have made over 2,000 edits, almost every single edit has been to an article on the CCI list. I have been adding references to my earliest articles where they are missing and correcting disambiguations as well and also adding the newest templates. I don't know how many other editors devote as much time to Misplaced Pages as I do. Despite the flaws of my earliest contributions, and an occasional error. I am one of the most prolific editors. I devote several hours a day to Misplaced Pages on top of my work and my family. I have gone trough half of my 2005-2007 tranche of contributions. And as I said before I will have it completed in the next 30 days.

Please say "Yes, I will help first and foremost". That's all what we're looking for.   Will Beback  talk  12:12, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

I wish I could take you at your word. However when I look at your most recent contributions I see that you are not making this your sole priority. Instead, you are creating new articles, which is what the community asked you to stop doing.   Will Beback  talk  22:14, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

• Comment I support giving this editor another chance. He has been a good-faith long-time contributor who made some mistakes. No reason to throw the banhammer on him. His explanation also sounds reasonable. Dr.K.  01:56, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
• Agree with previous comment  Also, I think we need an interaction ban from LibStar and Fram here.  RAN, Carrite, SPhilbrick, and MRG seem to agree to the extension of the current topic ban.  Unscintillating (talk) 02:36, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

LOL interaction ban? perhaps you could suggest interaction ban from others that want indef block with Richard, since it's clear they don't want him editing any longer. Like many users here, we want to say Richard improve, he just needs to be more cooperative with others in their feedback/suggestions. LibStar (talk) 13:15, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

• • I'm not sure why you think making ludicrous proposals reflects well on either you or the editor you're purportedly defending. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 10:12, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
• Quoting RAN Problems like that could be avoided if Fram would remove any cut and paste material instead of deleting an entire article. Therefore recommend indefinite site ban.Bali ultimate (talk) 02:39, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Yes, the all too familiar blame-the-editor-trying-to-clean-up approach. Lest there be any doubt, copyright policies permit the "indiscriminate removal" of any content created by RAN before the CCI started. Fram is completely blameless, RAN bears the burden of ensuring anything he creates is clean, and he has failed to satisfy it. Suggesting there are only "20 problems" is of course completely disingenuous as well. Until the CCI is complete, we won't have a number. But I'm sure at this rate the number will have a few more zeroes on it than that. --Mkativerata (talk) 03:03, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
    • I can't speak for him but I don't think that's what RAN meant. I think he wanted to say that he prefers the articles stubbed instead of outright deleted so that the rest of the article infrastructure, citations, see also etc. are preserved and not redone from scratch after complete article deletion. It was a good faith comment IMO. Also let's not forget that RAN's character is close to that of an exopedian. He has been historically the retiring type, he is not very verbal and doesn't have a lot of friends. He definitely is not a very popular guy even if we ignore the CCI problem. It would not be very nice to ban him partly because of these attributes of his character. Dr.K.  03:51, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

That is precisely my point. Less time is wasted recreating the lede, categories, lists, references, internal links, external links and infoboxes. Once the article is deleted, then the images become orphaned and then they get deleted. I am not blaming anyone other than myself for my early contributions, but the Fram method of handling the problem is sub-optimal. We have two ways of handling a troubling passage that is too close to the source and needs to be reworded: The SPhilbrick way in which the passage is deleted and I am notified to reword it. The Fram way, where the entire article is deleted including other people's contributions and all of the article accoutrements. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 17:21, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

• • • • With all due respect, I don't think that psychological evaluation is even particularly accurate, let alone in the least bit compelling as a rebuttal to the arguments being made. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 10:12, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
        • This is my opinion of RAN's character as I perceive it and I expressed it as such. No additional claims should be divined from it. You don't have to ascribe to it semantic values and descriptors in order to rebut it. If you don't agree with it just say so. Dr.K.  17:46, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
        • But to be fair, you are correct that calling him an exopedian is wrong. I still think however that he is not very assertive overall but I will leave it at that. Δρ.Κ.  03:32, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
• Support extension per RAN's very reasonable statement above, and I also associate myself with Warden's comments earlier in this thread. It's important that we do our best to avoid infringing anyone's copyright, but there's a general tendency within the community to descend into copyright paranoia well beyond any reasonable necessity. given American fair use rules. That's something we should avoid as well. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:21, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Small tangent. Material covered under fair use is non-free content and should be quoted and sourced. It has absolutely nothing to do with copying without attribution and the text in articles without direct quotes is claimed to be released under CC-BY-SA. Protonk (talk) 04:31, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
    • True (I've struck the "fair use" part of my comment), but not really relevant to my point, which was that moral panics about copyright tend to be endemic around here, unnecessarily polarizing discussions such as this one. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:19, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
      • The issue here is not so much the copyright issue (there's already overwhelming consensus that it's a problem) but RAN's response to it. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 10:12, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
• Support topic ban extension to indefinite, because I am not at all convinced the user has understood the problems. I suggest that if RAN wants the topic ban removing, request here in at least 3 months.  Chzz  ►  15:39, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
• Support extending the topic ban for another month so RAN can finish cleanup. The article that Fram is concerned about has a very complicated history, and the original charge that he inserted the same copyright violation twice has been shown to be Fram's confusion in reading the history also. I do not think it's a clear enough case for a permanent ban. I think the Col. is taking a little too loose a view of copyvio. Copyvio and especially close paraphrase pervades much of the earlier material on Misplaced Pages, and a good deal of current material, and the indiscriminate removal of it is much less productive than the rewriting of it, in those cases where rewriting is possible and worth the trouble. Though IANL, I think the Col. is correct that we have no legal liability unless we fail to remove after notice, but that is certainly not a reason to tolerate it, but a reason to act carefully and responsibly in dealing with it. I do not think the indiscriminate removal clause applies literally to paraphrase, because in many cases the question of whether a paraphrase is too close is a matter of judgement. After the topic ban is over, I assume RAN will resume contributing new content--and as he knows how closely he will be watched, he'll be more careful. I think we could do some sort of targeted mentoring, where he checks with someone first whenever he uses paraphrase at all. DGG ( talk ) 17:22, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
• Time for jbMurray to wrap this up?. Kittybrewster ☎ 21:42, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Probably. We're heading into pile-on country, I should think a result could be puled from what we have now. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:49, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

I wasn't 100% sure if I would still be called an uninvolved editor. I would be happy to wrap this up otherwise. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 02:49, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Eh, I'll close it—a proposer generally can't be considered uninvolved. Swarm 03:45, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Admin(s) needed to check/monitor/(if possible: participate)

There's a dispute at Talk:Pakistan studies#Pakistani textbooks controversy which resulted in the page being protected for a short time. It is huge chunk (~10K) of content that belongs to Pakistani textbooks controversy, me and another editor contested it being against WP:SUMMARY and being WP:POV & WP:UNDUE. The opposing editors are only eager to revert and reluctant to discuss the issue inspite of repeated invitations on Talk:Pakistan studies and on their user talk pages (no reply since a week). & . Previously in response one editor only responded with comments on me rather than on the issue while the other is not even talking about the issue being disputed. --lTopGunl (talk) 11:02, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

This page is not really intended for reporting content disputes. If there is edit warring, report at WP:AN3. Otherwise there are numerous venues for WP:DR. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:03, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Note that I didn't mean to list the dispute itself here, but WP:NINJA by the editors who revert right away but are reluctant to respond to discussion. The page is protected now so there can't be an edit war, but I was reverted by two editors who are not addressing the issue on talk page so the discussion can't go any where and if I revert after protection expires, they will simply revert me. --lTopGunl (talk) 22:19, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

• Since no response has been given in a reasonable time by the editors in favour of keeping the content duplication, can an administrator see if the discussion can be closed on the current reasoning? Or advise if the issue needs to be further taken up (and how to go about that with the editors being non responsive). --lTopGunl (talk) 14:19, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

You have not taken the advice which I left at Talk:Pakistan studies to open an RfC. If you won't take that step, could you at least try to make a neutral summary on the talk page of what everyone has said so far, including your opponents? An outsider looking at that page can tell that everyone is angry and that politics must be involved, but the issues are hard to understand. Your arguments about WP:MOS and WP:SUMMARY appear to be mere acronym-warring and can't be taken seriously. If your content opponents are not responding, you should at a minimum try to bring others into the discussion, which an RfC provides for. EdJohnston (talk) 17:10, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Alright, I will take both your advices and write a neutral summary of arguments to call an RFC. I didn't open the RFC before because it seemed like an overkill for a discussion that could be solved by talkpage discussion between the four already involved editors. But due to no response, RFC is the right option. Thanks. --lTopGunl (talk) 17:16, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Template:Did you know/Queue

Can an admin please load up the next two preps to queues at Template:Did you know/Queue? I'd do it myself but they contain hooks of mine. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:18, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Files for deletion/2011 December 8#File:Hugo Chávez (1992 Coup Surrender).jpg

Could an admin please close the discussion above? I'm involved so I'm afraid I can't. Thanks, FASTILY 01:40, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

AfD tag request

I have just nominated Tahir Abbas, a biography currently fully protected for BLP reasons, for deletion. I have created the deletion discussion page (Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Tahir_Abbas_(3rd_nomination)) and added the article to today's AfD listing, but have not been able to add the AfD tag to the article itself, as it's fully protected. Could an admin able to edit through the protection please add it? Thanks. --JN466 02:54, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

 Done. 28bytes (talk) 03:30, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your help. --JN466 03:32, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm a big fan of Whack-a-mole

Ok, so RBI is good. Disruption is not. I'm not going to specify which IP range I'm talking about, because for many of us it's obvious. They're under the rather strange belief that they cannot be "touched". However, now that some of their edits actually make physical threats of harm, add the race issue, and it's now escalated into something that would legally require their ISP to release the client name/address/etc to the proper authorities, and take Federal action. No action from admins needed, it's more of an escalation :-) (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 12:39, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Please provide more information. Thanks 99.88,1211.09O (talk) 15:56, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

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