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Shame

Jimbo, you take credit in the media for starting this project, so you should take responsibility for allowing it to be misused as it is to give living people a hard time. Take some responsiblity. Ayn Rand's philosophy didn't absolve you of taking responsibility, did it? Come on...do the right thing. Cla68 (talk) 08:03, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Can you point to any problems in the current article? I have engaged directly with Mr. Hawkins about the article, and personally went through it line-by-line looking for any inaccuracies or errors. I additionally courtesy-blanked the deletion discussions, reprimanded an editor who was rude, and asked another editor who the subject finds annoying to steer clear of the article. So, what is the 'right thing' that you think I've failed to do?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:29, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Delete it. That's the decent thing to do, given the history. Kevin (talk) 11:36, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Given what history, exactly? I've looked into this case in pretty close detail, and I see nothing from the history of the situation that would warrant deletion of the article today. Can you be more precise about why you think that's the right thing to do here? Also, to be clear, I think Cla68 is asking me to overrule community consensus, which would be extremely controversial to say the least. So, obviously, I'd need to have a really really good reason. Even if I agreed that the article should be deleted, that's no different from many hundreds or thousands of votes every year on the site where I might find myself voting in the minority of some issue. If I acted with special powers every little time I disagreed with something, we'd have a huge mess on our hands.

So why is this case not just one in which you (or Cla68, at least) thinks that the community has come to the wrong decision, but that the decision is sufficiently and importantly wrong to such a degree that I ought to do something dramatic about it? I just don't see how that makes sense.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:43, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

It's in part a question of precedent. This is not a household name. Practically all the sources are primary, and regional, sources. There is no national coverage of him. Someone with that level of notability should have an opt-out from Misplaced Pages, especially if they feel distressed by the way their biography and its associated talk page have been handled by Misplaced Pages's anonymous editors.

The number of biographies rises daily. The number of editors looking after them does not. If we allow that trend to continue, the problems caused by BLP violations will increase. --JN466 13:03, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Judging by comments on Wifione's talk page, I believe the Hawkins AfD is headed for deletion review. JN466 13:05, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

I've been in lengthy discussions with Jim Hawkins via his FaceBook account, identifying myself as a WP admin and asking if I can help. Principally, I wanted to know what errors he had detected in the article about him so that I could correct or remove them. Jimbo has asked him the same questions. However he's unwilling to answer that question, instead asking that because of unspecified inaccuracies the article as a whole should be deleted. I've stopped my dialogue with him and left it that I'm willing to be contacted by him at any future date if he wants corrections making. I don't think we can say fairer than that. He has asked me "Why does there have to be a Misplaced Pages article about me" and I suppose the answer is, "there doesn't". By which I mean, it would not be compulsory for us to have one if none existed. However one does exist, obviously. So the question really becomes "Why should it be deleted?" to which the AfD has responded "it shouldn't". There we leave it, unless Jayen wants to propose that WP should not host any BLP's because of the difficulty of maintaining them. Kim Dent-Brown 15:42, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

There simply isn't the secondary-source coverage demanding that we have an article. All the sources bar one, which is a bare mention of his name, are regional and primary sources. There is no national, let alone international, media coverage. The dozen sources cited in the article are pretty much all there is. Someone with that level of notability should simply be able to say "I don't want an article", and we should comply. Why should the man have to worry constantly whether the annual stalker of his tweets will have been busy on the talk page again overnight, or whether the article will again declare to the world which yahoo group he hangs out in, or whether he likes Marmite? Whose business is it?

By the way, I do think we should abandon anonymous editing of little-watched biographies like that. And if not that, we certainly should have flagged revisions for them. The simple fact of the matter is that we are plainly unable to maintain minor biographies and their talk pages in a policy-compliant state, and it's the subjects of those, who are not in the news on a daily or weekly basis, that are most affected by any questionable material. JN466 19:26, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

@Jimbo - the history of vandalism, of petty revert warring over his DOB, and his clearly stated desire not to have an article. Then when he states that the stress of not knowing what will be said about him next is causing health issues, instead of acting with compassion and decency, we have editors fighting to include where he lives, and Silver Seren with his aggressive demands that the subject justify his feelings. Those are the things that make this different. Kevin (talk) 22:35, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

It's in part a question of precedent: yes, it certainly is. And the precedent some people seem to want to set, is that if you don't think the coverage of you in Misplaced Pages is sufficiently flattering, you can whinge in your blog, on your TV or radio show, and by e-mail, until it's deleted, without ever making any coherent case for why it should be removed instead of improved. --Orange Mike | Talk 19:31, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

That comment is simplistic and offensive. --JN466 19:34, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

And accurate. -DJSasso (talk) 19:43, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Accurate? No, not in the slightest. Those who called for deletion did so because they felt his notability was marginal at best and the subject made it known that the existence of a Misplaced Pages article is something he finds distasteful. Whether he was spiteful, angelic, mean, or a perfect gentleman about the matter should not be a concern to us; anonymous and pseudonymous editors have no moral or ethical standing to make value judgements about publicly identifiable people. Tarc (talk) 20:07, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

"Tarc" (whoever you are) I am known to most people by the same name I use here; and my legal name is right there on my userpage for anybody to see. I reject and spurn any accusation that I'm "hiding behind" the name most people know me by. --Orange Mike | Talk 20:20, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Certainly people can't make those judgments in the articles themselves. But people certainly are able to have their opinions on the actions of a public figure. And it clearly appears that he is just complaining where-ever/however he can to try and get an article he can't control removed. He has been approached by numerous people including Jimbo to clear up any so called inaccuracies and he refused to even reveal what they are. Thus it would be setting a precedent that complain enough if you have a public forum on which you can do so (such as a radio show) and your article will be removed. So yes it is accurate to say that it would set a precedent that complain enough on a radio show and you can get your article removed. -DJSasso (talk) 20:14, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

If Hawkins is a non-public figure, then his radio show must surely be a non-public forum. So where's the problem? FormerIP (talk) 20:56, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Oh yeah? Have you done a study of the edit history and think that it stands up to encyclopedic standards? (And it should not be inferred that any of these editors was the subject.) --JN466 20:12, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

There is vandalism on tens of thousands of articles. It gets fixed usually fairly rapidly. Still doesn't change the fact he appears to just be complaining because he can't control it completely. -DJSasso (talk) 20:16, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Says an editor editing from behind the veil of anonymity, whose name is not affected by any of this, and who does not give a shit if someone identifiable is harmed. What a model of behaviour. --JN466 20:42, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Nothing in the article at this point is harmful, anything that is harming him at this point is of his own doing and own actions since he started getting upset at wikipedia. If you don't want to be a public figure you don't take a job as a public figure like he has and you don't tweet/post your personal information out into the web like he has. It really is that simple. -DJSasso (talk) 22:03, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

He is a local radio guy, in Shropshire. No national media coverage, most of the 12 sources are primary sources. That simply isn't a "public figure". There are hundreds or thousands of local radio guys like that who don't have an article in Misplaced Pages. And the argument that tweeting makes you a public figure suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages, or that tweeting is something that ought to be punished by anonymous editors creating an article on the person in Misplaced Pages ("anything you tweet can and will be held against you in Misplaced Pages"), is bizarre. The fact of the matter is that people only started looking at his tweets because there were no sources. JN466 22:25, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

A local radio guy who used to be a national radio guy. But even if he was still just a local radio guy being a host on the radio makes you a public figure. Whether or not it makes you notable is another matter, but it does make you a public figure. And I didn't say that tweeting made him a public figure. My point was that he tweeted or otherwise posted the information that is in the article on the net, so he can't really complain that it is now public since it was him who made it public. -DJSasso (talk) 22:46, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

One-dimensional thinking. A tweet is transient. A Misplaced Pages biography is permanent, and the no. 1 Google link for someone's name. People don't expect random tweets to end up there, nor should they. And when biography subjects tell Misplaced Pages to stay the fuck out of their tweets, that's what Misplaced Pages should do. --JN466 02:11, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Further, I would note that an IP purporting to be the subject has posted this at the Deletion Review]. Tarc (talk) 20:10, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

• And there is now further meltdown on the article's talk page, with the subject being asked to explain to anonymous editors why he does not want Misplaced Pages to list his birth date (even though per BLP policy, he has the right not to have it listed), and Pigsonthewing making a return to editing the article and its talk page. This has nothing to do with writing an encyclopedia. JN466 20:38, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

• Can you stop repeating that the birth date doesn't have to be listed. You've said that a number of times already and i've also acknowledged it a number of times. I merely asked because, as far as I can tell, he has yet to explain why anywhere or to anyone. And I also specifically said that he doesn't have to answer it. But if he's going to keep repeating psychological stress without explaining why publically available information is doing as such, then it rather lessens any weight we give to him. Silverseren 21:05, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

• Why the fuck do you think it is any of our business why Hawkins objects to information about him appearing on Misplaced Pages? This seems to be nothing more than hounding of the subject, for no good reason at all.I think we can take it as a foregone conclusion that Pigsonthewing is going to be topic-banned for this - and I'd suggest we consider doing the same for Silver seren. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:11, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

He does not have to explain, because you do not have a right to know. JN466 21:39, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

• I wasn't involved here but having read the discussion it is fairly obvious that someone's privacy has been violated (again) and in contravention of Misplaced Pages's rules. Cla68 asked for someone to be accountable, not for a specific action to be taken. Jimmy Wales responded, if I may paraphrase, "it's not my fault; the community did it". The question is, if not Jimmy Wales, who is accountable? Alex Harvey (talk) 02:05, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
  • This whole site is set up to ensure that, as far as possible, no one here can be held accountable. Not the Foundation, because they are hiding behind Section 230, and not the editors, because they are (mostly) hiding behind their pseudonyms. The only people who are all in here with their real names are article subjects. JN466 02:40, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

• • Can you explain how exactly Hawkins' privacy has been violated? I don't think that has anything to do with this discussion, as we're discussing public information, all of which is available from his section of the BBC website. Silverseren 02:45, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

• • There is a reason BLP isn't called WP:SLAVISHLYMAKEAFUTILEEFFORTTOSTUFFTHEGENIEOFFREELYREVEALEDINFORMATIONBACKINTOTHELAMPIFTHESUBJECTBITCHESLOUDLYENOUGH. There's absolutely nothing being discussed here tha isn't already quite well-known, and as usual I wholeheartedly agree with Orangemike. I find it amazing that we are so hard on COI editors when it comes to criticizing products and organizations they create, but god forbid we take such a hard stand against vague complaints with no substance in these sorts of situations; there's no difference save the article in question. And if you don't think people feel as strongly about their creations as they do about themselves/family members, do read what Frank Zappa, Dee Snider, and John Denver said when the PMRC went on their foray into trying to foist their personal views on what was "offensive" on the US. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 02:58, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

We have a far greater responsibility to understand BLP subjects than they have a responsibility to communicate. It's not their fault that we created an article about them, and it's unfair to expect all such subjects to be experts at presenting their case. If they make vague complaints, then it's up to us to figure out how to express those complaints in terms we can apply policies to. Ken Arromdee (talk) 19:40, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

On the other hand, we're not mind readers. If they refuse to say what their objections are, and the article appears to be BLP compliant, it's beholden on them to specify what they feel is wrong with the article. We can't just guess. — The Hand That Feeds You: 20:26, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

It is amazing to me that Wikipedians demand that the subject say what is wrong with his biography article and pretend to be unaware that there is nothing to stop anonymous trolls from changing it. Are you also claiming that the article is going to be frozen in this state forever? Alex Harvey (talk) 02:04, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

That's a straw-man. The article is currently in good form, but the subject wants it deleted anyway with no reason given. Yes, articles can be vandalized. That's not a reason to delete an article that's currently in good standing. — The Hand That Feeds You: 18:15, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

That is a ridiculous argument. The article has been vandalised in the past, and may well be vandalised again in the future. In any case, there is no requirement whatsoever to compel the article subject to justify a request that the article be deleted. He doesn't like it, it is about him. He is entitled to his opinion, and we are entitled to take his opinion into consideration. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:25, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Vandalism is a moot point. Unless an article is fully protected, vandalism will happen to any article. Saying it "may well be vandalized again" is not a valid argument for deletion.

That said, I agree with you that we should take his opinion into consideration. Which has been done. — The Hand That Feeds You: 22:15, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Why is vandalism a moot point? The goal here is to provide a factual resource for the readers, articles that are frequently vandalised fail to meet that goal. If we cannot provide reasonable protection from vandalism, then not having an article is the lesser evil. It's a matter of finding the right balance. Kevin (talk) 23:11, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

It's moot because it's like saying, "If you can't prevent graffiti from being sprayed on this bridge, better to destroy the bridge." The only way to prevent BLPs from being vandalized would be to Fully Protect them and only allow admins to edit the page after each proposed edit has been vetted. Even Barack Obama is only semi-protected, and gets (temporary) full protection when determined vandals hit it. A blanket "locked BLPs" policy has been shot down every time it's been proposed. Being able to edit articles is the foundation of Misplaced Pages. It's unrealistic to then say we should delete any BLP because we can't guarantee it won't be vandalized.

What you've proposed is "Perfection or Nothing." Which is an absurd stance to take, because humans are never perfect. With that policy, we'd have no BLPs about anyone in short order. Including one on the current President of the United States. We do provide reasonable protection from vandalism right now. It's not perfect, but it's pretty damn good. — The Hand That Feeds You: 02:49, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

I guess it's easier to say that vandalism protection is pretty good if it isn't your biography being vandalised. I like your analogy, there's a similar one that happens where I live: if telephone boxes are vandalized often enough they get removed, i.e. a balance has been struck between their usefullness to the community, and the cost to keep them. My proposal, if you want to call it that, is also about balance. A balance between the interests of the readers, the editors, and the subject. Kevin (talk) 03:46, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Except that we're writing for the benefit of our readers, not ourselves or our subjects. The idea is to provide readers with information, not to cater to demands of people who want to have exclusive control over their article. If the two conflict, it falls to the side of providing encyclopedic information regardless of how much people don't like it. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:57, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but not at the expense of the subject. Remember this side discussion is about vandalism, something entirely reasonable for a subject to not like. Kevin (talk) 04:03, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

No, I'll never buy into the "if it's not perfect, tear it down" mentality. We may as well shut down the entire site if that policy were ever enacted. Besides, are you defining "subject" as only living persons? How about groups that object to their portrayal (Scientology)? Corporations? Governments? Just because someone doesn't like what's on Misplaced Pages it doesn't follow that they get their article taken down. — The Hand That Feeds You: 15:58, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

I'd like to echo that question: Why is vandalism a moot point? The article's been vandalised in the past, or has been overly intrusive. Generally speaking, on any day, this article may say that Mr Hawkins is a homophobe, antisemite, alcoholic, what have you. All it takes is someone like Johann Hari in a bad mood. Why should someone not feel that they don't want to be in that position? Your position seems morally untenable to me. It's like you're building a library. Your trucks pass through a village, and they regularly dump rubbish from the building site there. The villagers complain, but you say: "We are doing a noble thing, building that library. Rubbish getting dumped is a moot point. Rubbish dumping will always happen! So stop whinging that your village has rubbish dumped in it. Just look at how splendidly our library is coming along!" And all of that is because you just want to dump your rubbish somewhere, rather than taking responsibility for it. I don't know what you'd say to a builder like that, but I can think of a few things. Misplaced Pages has a problem with minor BLPs, and it needs sorting. I've made a number of suggestions: introduce registered editing, introduce flagged revisions, make BLP editing a separate user right, or move minor biographies to a separate project, analogous to Commons. And/or raise minimum notability standards. These are all workable suggestions that would result in more responsible biography writing. --JN466 00:56, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

In theory, yes, on any given day, Hawkins' bio might, for a period of a few minutes, call him a homophobe, antisemite or alcoholic. But it hasn't happened on any of the 2400 or so days since the article was created. On 25th March 2010, he persuaded one of his Twitter followers to vandalise the article with a claim that he was born a woman. That was there for ten minutes. This is a problem only in your head, Jayen. FormerIP (talk) 01:55, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Jesus, you are deluded. The Bald Truth Choonz edit, which I think predated any of the vandalism inspired by Hawkins' complaints, lasted several days, before Hawkins (I believe) took it out himself. Other material was unsourced and intrusive. Just in the last 24 hours I redacted material where someone posted a BLP subject's mortgage details on the talk page. Johann Hari's vandalisms – precisely painting people as homophobes, antisemites, and alcoholics – lasted weeks in the articles concerned (example; and I see you positively assisted Hari with some of this dirty work). Rita M. Gross noticed the BLP violations in her article herself, took them out twice, and saw them twice reverted into her biography by experienced Wikipedians who either didn't know BLP policy, or could not be bothered to check a reference. If she had not made a stink, they would still be in her article today. Same with Ian Dowbiggin. Etc. You have no idea. --JN466 13:48, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Why are you bringing up Hari? That's just a pathetic attempt at a slur. In fact, I can probably take some credit for convincing him to stop editing WP (along with his boss, I gather). But it is not relevant here.

The bottom line here is that the whole Hawkins saga has exposed no particular flaws in the way WP handles bios. If there are flaws, they have nothing to do with this case. Show me an article with a genuine problem and I'll either explain how that can be fixed without deleting it, or else I'll agree with you that it should be deleted. What has been exposed is a bit of a WP:SPIDERMAN problem, but I don't have any immediate suggestions as to the best way of dealing with that.FormerIP (talk) 14:38, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

FormerIP, the Hawkins BLP was completely unsourced for a long time, as are tens of thousands of BLPs today. Some of the information it contained at various times was not just unsourced, but unsourceable, which means it was either false or, if true, a breach of privacy, as Misplaced Pages biographies should not be written from personal knowledge: they should reflect coverage in independent, reliable secondary sources. By the way, the reason I brought up Hari was because I wanted to give you another example from his edit history of stuff that stayed in articles, and for which he later apologised. And then I noticed that he had thanked you for agreeing with him that some of his defamatory stuff belonged in Misplaced Pages, like this edit, where he manufactured a "criminal record" for "acts of violence committed in Peterborough in the 1970s" out of the fact that (according to Sam Blacketer) the guy had once, as a teenager, been fined £20 for involvement in a pub brawl. This type of BLP abuse, where some obscure, unflattering fact is inflated to vastly undue importance, and is given its own section and headline, is absolutely typical of Misplaced Pages. It was the same in the Gross article, for example. --JN466 16:04, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Jayen, I find it illuminating that, whilst you are obsessively concerned about someone being accused, for the blink of an eye three years ago, of running a record label, you're quite happy to attempt to smear a fellow editor without any idea whether what you are alleging is true.

Do you think Richard Littlejohn's article should be deleted? Do you think Rita Gross's should be undeleted? If not, why are they at all relevant? FormerIP (talk) 16:56, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Because they exemplify the problem you said doesn't exist. So, how shall we solve it? How about registered editing? Would you be happy to let the Foundation have your real name if you wanted to edit minor biographies? How about making BLP editing a separate user right, predicated on consistent compliance with BLP policy, or moving minor BLPs off to a separate project? What's your view on flagged revisions? These are all possible solutions. --JN466 20:48, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

I think that if someone were to start discussions at VP or wherever about those types of ideas instead of whining on like a broken hoover about a perfectly reasonable decision not to delete a particular unremarkable article, they would at least be doing something constructive. FormerIP (talk) 21:13, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Jimbo's talk page has traditionally been a more useful place to air ideas like this, especially when related to BLP issues (and is actually watched by more people than the Village Pump). JN466 09:50, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Ideas like what? All I see is a latrineful of editors bitching and moaning because they didn't get their way in an AfD, like is was Nelson Mandela's trial or something. Come up with a proposal or stop wasting your time and everyone else's. Get on with it, Wilberforce. FormerIP (talk) 14:15, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

For anyone interested in issues surrounding the "public figure" concept, related definitions, and sources. See, Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:49, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Examples

• Here is another example: Klee Irwin. This is what the article looks like today, this is what it looked like six weeks ago. In one version the guy is a crook, in the other he is a saint. Both versions are rampant WP:COATRACKs. Neither article version, surely, is worthy of being called a biography in an encyclopedia, and Misplaced Pages is nowhere near reliable if an article can flip-flop like that. So if that is the quality level we are happy to settle with, where we either end up with hatchet jobs or infomercials, then I think it would indeed be better not to have "biographies" of people like that at all. JN466 10:18, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

• Another example. This turns a sexual harassment accusation into fact. Not even the tabloid sources the edit is based on presented the allegation as fact, and they presented statements calling the veracity of the accusation in doubt – none of which were reflected in Misplaced Pages. As far as I can tell, this court case has sunk without trace. But an accusation obviously suffices for a conviction in the court of Misplaced Pages. This edit stood like that for a whole year. The site is riddled with stuff like that, just sitting there. JN466 10:48, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

A radical idea; BLP opt-out for all

Every time some borderline notable person complains about their article, we have to have these nasty, drawn-out fights in order to actually get it done...or not done, as that is the regrettable direction that the Jim Hawkins bio is heading. Huge wars over if the person is really notable or what degree of sorta kinda non-notability the person has in order to qualify for WP:BIODELETE, then we have to deal with the spite, both from editors here who see the deletion as a grave travesty and those off-wiki who may be friends of the person or just interested parties.

So rather the same fight over and over about how much of a sliver to open BIODELETE and all requests through, here's what we do.

Throw it open. All the way.

Any living person, subject to identity verification via OTRS, may request the deletion of their article. No discussion, no AfD, just *poof*. In its place is a simple template explaining why there is no longer an article there, and a pointer to where the reader can find information on the subject, a link similar to Template:Find sources at the top of every AfD.

Yes, this is radical and yes "for all" really does mean for all, so as unlikely the chance is, if Barack Obama requested deletion of his article, yes, it will be gone. This is encyclopedia that people come to to find information about a subject. That doesn't mean that that information has to be here all of the time, and I think the actual number of people who would take advantage of this would be so vanishingly small as to be inconsequential. Let the Jim Hawkins' and Don Murphys of the world be at peace, for once. I realize that to many, the Misplaced Pages is a paradise, but we have to face the truth of that matter is that sometimes some people just want to find the exit. Tarc (talk) 20:07, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

An interesting idea. Somehow, I can't see that getting approved as policy though... AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:13, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

I am minded to support this idea. This is a serious problem for Wiki - we cannot be seen, as a project, to be putting our fingers in our ears to serious requests by people because of a high-minded idea of 'value' or 'worth'. doktorb _words 20:15, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose with a side order of WTF? This is a proposal to abdicate any responsibility, because one or two individuals a year get antsy about the content of their articles. I reject any such move, although I certainly will accept that it's meant in good faith, however incomprehensible it may be to me as a historian and journalist; and it's certainly, ummm... bold! --Orange Mike | Talk 20:21, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
• Support - I have long supported giving people of marginal notability the option of "opting out" of Misplaced Pages. For me, the question was always where to draw the line, and I know that I would draw that line in a different place than others, but I never suspected that anyone would suggest that Misplaced Pages could not do without the biography of Jim Hawkins (radio presenter). I support Tarc's ambitious and futile proposal. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 20:27, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
• hell no and this isn't the forum for the discussion. We need to be fair and careful with how we deal with BLPs...but all out deletions for anyone who requests it shouldn't even be considered as an option. --Onorem♠Dil 20:30, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

"it shouldn't even be considered as an option". why not? Do we have a policy on things we aren't allowed to think about? How we decide that something is unthinkable without thinking about it? AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:35, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Clearly I'm offering an opinion. Think about whatever the hell you want to. Offer up whatever ideas you want to. I think this entire argument is a non-starter. If a person is notable, we shouldn't feel obligated to delete their bio just because they ask us to. When it comes to borderline cases, the input might make a difference. This proposal is simplistic and unrealistic. --Onorem♠Dil 20:47, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

There isn't actually anything unrealistic about the proposed change. If this were enacted, it could be very easily done (verifying identity would be the most difficult part, but we apparently do that already for other OTRS processes). The fact that some people might not want to allow people to opt out does not mean that it could not be done, and done with very little difficulty. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 21:33, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Unrealistic is a poor choice of wording I guess. Clearly it could be done. I think (there's that opinion thing again) that it would be remarkably stupid to allow any bio subject to request (and be granted without question) deletion of their article. It's still far too simplistic of a suggestion to useful.) --Onorem♠Dil 21:41, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Sorry if I am being dense, but why? Why is it too simplistic to be useful? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 21:46, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

This still isn't the forum for the discussion. Why is it too simplistic? Do you actually believe that any person who wants for any reason to have their article deleted should have that request granted? People are sometimes notable...whether they like it or not. I don't see how it's reasonable to say that any person can have their article deleted for any reason. Is that a simple enough explanation for my thoughts? --Onorem♠Dil 22:00, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Let me put it this way, DC: if Barack Obama came here and asked us to remove his article, should we? Should we really not have an article on a President of the United States? — The Hand That Feeds You: 11:33, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

• I'd go along with default to delete for the marginally notable. But this would just be a recipe for newbie biting. Who would like the task of explaining to people that various arrested murderers and war criminals couldn't have wikipedia articles written on them because they had requested it? And then what do we do if a bunch of senior US politicians decide they'd rather have their bios on their own sites and Conservapedia but not here? ϢereSpielChequers 20:37, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose - would make life much easier for some editors (and even more exasperated admins), but also for any celebrity or politician wishing to quickly hide any kind of unflattering indiscretion or major scandal? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:42, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

• Indeed! —MistyMorn (talk) 22:02, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose. Silly nonsense from a Misplaced Pages Review activist. Prioryman (talk) 20:45, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
  • No, I think they call themselves something like Wikipedocrats now they have signed up to the all new agenda. Though I'm probably being unfair, we should probably check with the Arbcom members and Oversight members that are active supporters of the Wikipedocracy and hence are themselves promoting Greg Kohs. --Fæ (talk) 20:50, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
    • Can we do away with this ridiculous "WR bad" canard, please? You lost the WP:BADSITES argument a long time ago, not to mention that...as i noted earlier...WR is dead and the splinter faction is not something I even really support. Tarc (talk) 21:56, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

In practice, when I get a complaint from someone who wants their article deleted, I'll look at the page. If the page is not verifiable, then this is easy - I'll delete the page on those grounds. If the page is verifiable, but either not notable or only marginally notable, I will likely choose to delete the page for them. Obviously this involves a judgement call about what constitutes 'marginally notable'. Most of the time no one complains about the deletion, and all is well. If someone does object to the deletion then I'd first let them know why the page was deleted, and then we can go to DRV or AfD as needed. This approach handles most BLP deletion requests fairly nicely. However, there are some articles where the inclusion of the page is important to the project. For these highly visible, people I would not agree with deleting these pages simply because the subject doesn't want a factual, neutral piece (as determined by our consensus process) written about them. Unlike for articles about minor figures, attention to their article should be sufficient to prevent the addition of disparaging material. I'd argue that the desires of the readers looking for this article outweigh the desires of the subject. It would be impossible to make this site work if we cared only about the subjects of pages, or only about the readers, or even only about the editors. A balance has to be struck, and this proposal does not do that. Prodego 20:46, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

• Unilaterally deleting articles of "marginally notable" persons is not permitted by WP:CSD and the fact that no one happens to notice such an abuse doesn't justify it. Just because the original author has retired and no one else has it watchlisted doesn't mean it has no utility to our readership. Such articles should always go through AfD. Dcoetzee 21:17, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
• Misplaced Pages, no matter how much we love it, is just a website along with Facebook. If somebody wants their details gone, then who are we to say no? Think of it as wanting to unsubscribe from a web community where you don't want to get the newsletter any more. If they dig their heels in and keep on sending their stuff, it's annoying and counterproductive. --Pete (talk)
  • Being a website does not make an information source frivolous or unimportant. Deleting articles directly damages readers who take advantage of that information to learn and complete real-world tasks, and content reusers who take advantage of the article to help others make informed decisions. The needs of the individual are worthy of consideration, but the needs of the many may exceed them. The availability of information elsewhere does not negate this, because such information may either be more difficult to access, misrepresent the subject, or get taken down eventually. Dcoetzee 21:44, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
    • You learned nothing from this, did you? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 21:48, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
    • The needs of the individual are worthy of consideration, but the needs of the many may exceed them. You know, that sounds like Jeremy Bentham's Utilitarianism rephrased, and it still sounds like a copout for doing harm to others. Can we find a solution that doesn't do any harm at all? --Pete (talk) 22:48, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
      • No, we can't. Every time you post anything online you are hurting or risking hurting somebody, even if only by displacing commercial opportunities to provide that same content. The goal of Misplaced Pages is to produce an overall benefit to society. @Delicious, I would not compare the utility of an orphaned image of little conceivable use to an article on a notable person read by hundreds to thousands of people, much less to the article on Barack Obama as the OP suggested. Dcoetzee 23:53, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
        • Quite a humbling comparison there, Pete, although my relatively miniscule contribtion here means I'm not as offended as some editors might be. Still, perhaps Mark Zuckerberg will buy us one day, and then we can just officially un-friend each other? ".. just a website along with Facebook?" .. like Queen Elizabeth II is just royalty along with Burger King perhaps. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:44, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

i think it sets up for gaming the system. someone doesnt want an article that accurate portrays some less than perfect aspects of their life. and then "oh i changed my mind" start fresh. if you cannot change your mind, then there are situations i am aware of such as a young quiz show participant who really unfairly became a target of public ridicule in the media and on the Misplaced Pages page about xir could very rightly say "get me off". and then they grow up and become a famous politician and nobel prize winner or cures cancer or becomes the next elvis and we would have no article. I dont think this "cure" has any chance of solving any more problems than it creates. -- The Red Pen of Doom 21:56, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

• Um, votes? Seriously? This is Jimbo's talk page, not a platform for policy-making. The intent was just to see what the general sense of the idea was. Chillax yo shizzles, as a hipster Snoop Dogg would put it. Tarc (talk) 21:56, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

• I honestly think the embers of this particular drama are too dim to be worth stoking now. Move on already. FormerIP (talk) 21:58, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
  • I agree. I think most department stores will regret seeing their handbag sales drop once all the Wikipedians stop throwing them at each other. If someone sees a Louis Vuitton on the pile, it's mine. --Fæ (talk) 22:11, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

• This would essentially mean that any tyrant in the world could send a line to the Foundation and get their article deleted, since it discusses the fully verifiable and, often, internationally recognized negative information about them. This is entirely unacceptable and a worthless proposal. Silverseren 22:12, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
  • See, that's the kind of vitriol that I find a bit puzzling at times. Somewhere along the line, "the encyclopedia anyone can edit" seems to have warped into a right to write an article about anyone of your choosing. What exactly gives you the right to write about a marginal person? We're not talking about the Tiger Woods or Angelina Jolie of the world here ultimately, but of the woman who barely scrapes by WP:PROF or the guy who placed 8th in the 1988 Olympics. Do they have any say at all in how or where a website writes about them? Any? Tarc (talk) 22:24, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
    • so you are advocating a "some can drop out , but not others" - how and where would you be able to draw that line? and we would be right back to where we are "yes this person is in the drop out zone." "no they are not". -- The Red Pen of Doom 22:27, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
      • Sigh. Did you note post #1 where I gave the Obama example? There is no line drawn in this idea, none at all. I don't think the ultra-famous really care about the Misplaced Pages as the coverage of them in the world is so over-saturated, we're just one stop among thousands. This is aimed at the marginally notable and those who are aggrieved enough about it to want to be wiped from the project, but the option would be available to all. Tarc (talk) 22:33, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
        • • I did read post #1. And then I read your post where you said "We're not talking about the Tiger Woods or Angelina Jolie". So either we are talking about Tiger and Angela and say Robert Mugabe, or we are not. -- The Red Pen of Doom 23:48, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
            • Really not sure how to explain it again in better terms. What this proposal seeks to do is to take WP:BIODELETE and remove the "relatively unknown, non-public figures" clause. I want to eliminate the endless haggle over just who qualifies for that clause by just throwing it all wide open so the people like Jim Hawkins can get off the pages in this project just by asking. The later comment about Tiger and whatnot was just an aside about how I think famous people were unlikely to ever take advantage of this. That is all. And if they did actually want to? That fine too. Tarc (talk) 00:50, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Different proposal:

But which would require WMF to actually make a decision.

Any person desiring his or her biography to be deleted from Misplaced Pages shall furnish sufficient reason for such deletion. A committee shall dispassionately evalute the reasoning, and such decisions as are made by the committee shall not be reviewable except by the Arbitration Committee. Reasons which may be accepted include, but are not limited to, insufficient notability, notoriety for a single event, vandalism of information in the biography, and legal requirements of the venue in which the person resides.

This differs substantially from the proposal above, but, I hope, addresses some legitimate concerns. Collect (talk) 22:41, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

• Hell no As I said below, this is an encyclopedia. You can't very well tear out "Mussolini" from every copy of EB ever printed, can you? No - the subject existed, their notability was not temporary, the article exists. Deleting one "at the wish of the subject" was the stupidest thing done; period. Let's stop arguing about deletions, and let's simply make sure they meet BLP requirements as a whole, and protect them from defacement - period (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 22:47, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
  • LOL -- that would hardly occur -- if a committee made the decision that a person is not notable, then the current semi-circus of !votes would finally end. My suggestion does not say "at the wish of the subject" -- perhaps you meant to place it up the page a hair? Cheers. Collect (talk) 23:05, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
• I don't think the resources exist to staff such a committee, unless it were volunteer-based, in which case we'd have... pretty much the same thing we have now? Dcoetzee 23:55, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

• • Note the WMF comment at the start. Yep -- those folks would have to be the ones to set up the committee at that point, as the current !vote system is clearly broken. (anyone question this?) I suspect they would only need 5 part time workers on the task max - with input from WMF Legal as needed. Say under $50K a year would get a pretty fair job done. Maybe much less once the first hundred or so cases get done. Collect (talk) 00:10, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I absolutely question the claim that "the current !vote system is clearly broken". While I've seen some cases where I would have voted differently, I don't know of any where I see that the process is "clearly broken". In the Jim Hawkins case, I originally mentioned that I thought the article should be deleted. Then I went through it line-by-line and did my homework and changed my mind. I wouldn't be acutely bothered and consider the system broken no matter which way that particular example went - that's the thing about borderline cases; they are cases where reasonable people can disagree. I can think of no reason whatsoever to think that Foundation staff could do a better job, and lots of reasons to think that they would do a much much worse job (their incentives would be structurally wrong).--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:31, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

In this case I disagree -- not on the point that the WMF is not staffed with the right people for the task, but with your position that the !vote system is not "broken." On and off-wiki CANVASSing has been done in the past on AfDs (well-documented) and !votes absolutely not founded in Misplaced Pages policy are common. Votes like "per nom" are rife still in those discussions, and in a few cases it appears that groups may descend or have descended on AfDs (not counting the ARS former issues, and similar groups of AfD regulars in "opposition.") Where a BLP is the issue, especially of any person about whom contentious edits have been made, the process problems are exacerbated. Hence my choice of "broken." Hence my specific suggestion for listed reasons for deletion of a BLP where the subject requests deletion - making subjective judgements is not a good place for !voting - and generally produces more heat than light. I take it you would have preferred "the current system sometimes generates more heat than light with the system of !votes 'unrelated' to specific policy-based reasons for deletion"? Cheers. Collect (talk) 11:34, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

• The last thing this project needs is more Foundation interference in the content of this encyclopedia. Something like that might well end my participation on Misplaced Pages. Strongly object to both proposals. Both compromise the neutrality of our content and negatively impact our ability to fulfill our mandate. You might as well just close up shop at that point. Resolute 00:04, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose all this stuff. Note that if "repeated vandalism" is an excuse to delete, anyone looking to delete articles just needs a few spare IP addresses. Wnt (talk) 03:38, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

• Guaranteed deletion of a BLP on request of the subject is not a new idea, and it is totally undesirable. It would allow famous individuals to ensure that only their personal websites or PR handouts could be used as reference sources. As for the Jim Hawkins saga, enough said.--♦IanMacM♦ 05:37, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

It's worth noting that the Jim Hawkins case is a really interesting one in that it is unusual. The article about Mr. Hawkins is a perfectly good article. The thing that he's traditionally been upset about is his date of birth being listed in the article, even though he has openly talked about it on twitter and the radio. As we don't have a reliable source for that, it's out of the article now. For hundreds of other biographies this would be considered just a normal editorial discussion ending in the right decision. In this case, Mr. Hawkins has expressed mental anguish over it. To be clear: I think a couple of people should be topic-banned from the article, if they won't voluntarily agree to leave it alone, because their presence around the article is causing Mr. Hawkins to be upset. But what makes this case interesting is that his being upset is actually quite unreasonable. He insisted this past weekend that the article contained errors, but refused to tell me what they were. So I went through it personally in extreme detail, verifying in reliable sources every single sentence of the article. I haven't got a clue what errors he thinks the article has. He's upset at the very existence of the article, even though he is clearly a notable public figure, even though the article contains nothing negative about him, etc. I think that the wishes of the subject are something that we should take into account with compassion, even when those wishes are completely unreasonable, but only as one factor among many.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:11, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for spending so much time on this case. I would like to point out for all readers, that the only time that Jim Hawkins has emailed a request for help from Wikimedia was in September 2009, and there was a lengthy and positive dialogue back then (despite claims to the contrary, the first response from an OTRS volunteer to his original complaint was given in less than 12 hours of sending the email; not bad for a system manned by unpaid volunteers). The email from 2009 is referenced at the top of the article talk page and is the basis for successfully enforcing the personal information policy with respect to birth dates. If Jim Hawkins, or anyone with problems with articles containing biographical information about their personal lives, has further problems or complaints then emailing infowikimedia.org is an effective way to get helpful and confidential support. --Fæ (talk) 09:35, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Since there are three issues at hand here (the general borderline-notable BLP issue, the issue of the BLP of Hawkins, and the issue of the complaints brought by an IP that claims to be Hawkins) things start to get complicated pretty soon. Pertaining to the very last, might it be a good idea to try to contact Hawkins, preferably through pro-active OTRS action if that is possible, to protect the privacy of Hawkins, to get a definitive yay or nay on whether the IP is in fact Hawkins, to get at least one element of complication untangled from the rest of the discussion, and get a statement from who we know is Hawkins on the issue? I wouldn't be opposed to Jimbo contacting him either, since one of the expressed possible anguishes from Hawkins is the concept of anonymous people aggregating information on him. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 09:45, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

It seems to me that an accurate assessment here involves looking at the article's long and cumulative history, rather than just its present state. Because from the subject's point of view, this history can repeat itself any day. I would like to invite people to read the comments from Skyring (Pete) and ErrantX at WP:AN. These comments give some indication of the history of this BLP. It's been an intermittent, but recurrent venue for harassment and a constant source of discomfort for years. I do not see Misplaced Pages as having the moral right to inflict this on someone like Hawkins – in the interest of free knowledge? As Dcoetzee says, there are trade-offs. Misplaced Pages is playing roulette with someone's no. 1 Google link, and telling that person that if they don't like it they are a "pratt". --JN466 10:24, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I think I already said this a few days ago, but this argument, that "the biography is fine now", reminds me of a garbage collection company that has, for years, failed to collect a city's garbage reliably, leaving the city's residents to drown in rubbish time and again. If, faced with losing their contract because residents have finally had enough, they make one almighty effort and finally clean up the streets, they don't get to say, "What problem? The streets are clean!" Especially if rubbish is already beginning to build up again just as they are saying that. JN466 10:38, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

• 'Oppose - if a notable person can't stand the heat they need to just get the hell out of the kitchen. They wanted their 15 minutes worth of fame so now they've got it. Don't want an article about themselves on Misplaced Pages, well tough titty.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:19, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
  • It's funny how in views like this one there is always someone else to blame. If the Misplaced Pages biography of some media person falsely states they are a homophobe, an alcoholic, or an antisemite, then that is their fault, because they chose to become famous. Beg pardon? Somehow, it's never the fault of Misplaced Pages ... I'm not sure what the OP proposed is the ideal solution, but to say that there just isn't a problem, and our biography subjects deserve what's coming their way because they were foolish enough to become notable enough for people to write about them, is deeply offensive. That kind of disregard for the rights of others is what defines a sociopath, and it is endemic here. JN466 12:31, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
    • Come now, Jayen, don't insult everyone's intelligence with such garbage. Nobody said they should have to deal with false claims, nor that it would be their fault if they did. However, notable people do have people writing about them, whether it is Misplaced Pages or someone's blog or news stories or whatever. That is the price of being a public individual. At least on Misplaced Pages, our goal (even if we aren't perfect) is to be accurate. That is more than can be said for some outlets. Also, please spare everyone the Ludwigsesque nonsense of accuing anyone who doesn't support your view of being a 'sociopath', or the like. Nonsense like that reflects far more poorly on you than it does those you respond to. Resolute 13:43, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
      • You might want to withdraw that. He (Ludwigs2) did not accuse everyone who opposed him of being a sociopath. The argument you're alluding to, concerning the autistic/sociopathic ethos here and its origins, is much more subtle, and worthy of more respect than you pay it with that straw man characterisation of it as an indiscriminately deployed epithet. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 15:31, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
        • Yes, it's an indiscriminately deployed epithet with some moronic pop psychology behind it. FormerIP (talk) 15:44, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
          • • It's this kind of response to the feelings and welfare of others, this lack of concern for the real life effects of our choices here that concerns me, JN466 and others. (You need to read the post that comment is responding to, for context). I'm afraid it is a response typical of unsocialised autistics, who don't grasp social consequences well, and psychopaths, who don't care about harm to others. That's not to say people who respond like that are autistic or psychopathic, it is to say that somehow this kind of response is a respectable part of the ethos here. It's de facto policy. The idea that we should respond compassionately (at no real cost to the project) in situations like this one, where genuine distress is likely being caused, is sneered at. I hate this about Misplaced Pages. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 16:24, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
          • I am the editor Jayen claimed is the definition of a sociopath. May I also add that the epithet was accompanied with the typical balls-out stance that so many editors adopt behind the safety of a PC screen. I really don't think he would flash such a big pair were he to actually encounter living, breathing Early Grace-Lenny Murphy types of sociopath.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:13, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

• • • • I am sorry, Resolute, but false claims appear about individuals in Misplaced Pages on a daily basis. If biography subjects complain about that, or want to opt out, and people here say they shouldn't have gotten famous if they "can't stand the heat", that's not a reasonable attitude. Misplaced Pages should get its biographies sorted – start registered editing for minor biographies, move them to a different project, introduce flagged revisions, make biography editing a separate user right, things like that. As long as editors here say that it is "normal" for Misplaced Pages to contain false, unfair or defamatory information about people on a daily basis, and notable people should not expect anything else from a project that keeps telling the world what a "noble purpose" it has, I will call that a sociopathic culture. JN466 16:23, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
        • • For fu.ks sake, read my bloody comments. Where the hell do I say that it's OK for Misplaced Pages articles to contain false or defamatory information? If you would bother your arse to actually READ what I wrote instead of spouting verbal rubbish, you would see that I was talking about notables who winge over having an article here. I said NOTHING about false information. Just yesterday I had to deal with BLP issues on a Troubles-related page which has a 1RR, and you were certainly nowhere about with your Crusader sword in hand. Please DO NOT PUT WORDS INTO MY MOUTH!!!!!!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:33, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
            • If you agree that Misplaced Pages has a BLP problem, why do you think it is so unreasonable for subjects to want to opt out of having a biography here? --JN466 16:38, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
        • Dealing with false claims is one thing. Compromising the neutrality of and censoring our encyclopedia to suit biographical subjects who don't like the fact that they do not have complete control over their public profile is another. Separate concepts, and only the former should be any kind of priority here. Resolute 17:32, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose. I don't think Tarc expected his proposal to be adopted of course. Its a Radical Idea to make people think. In my opinion, every two-bit politician with any whiff of controversy, or charlatan like Keith Raniere, with any common sense, would indeed request his article be deleted. If I advised Rick Santorum, I'd advise him to request it tomorrow, as part of a campaign to denounce Misplaced Pages generally. If we want to deal with the issue of marginal BLPs, remember that they comprise a small sliver of our entire project content, that most of them are not contentious, and that only a small sliver of this small sliver goes to AfD for the type of drama Tarc refers to. My personal opinion in this small number of BLP cases is that if the subject is of truly marginal notability, subject has specifically requested deletion, and any important content can be distributed elsewhere (such that the outcome of the AfD is otherwise going to be subject to the randomness of who shows up), we should delete. See, e.g., Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Max Bernstein (musician).--Milowent • 13:54, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

• Support Tarc's suggestion. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 15:31, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

As I pointed out in the deletion review, it seems as though the closing admin misread BIODEL. He believes that BIODELETE does *not* allow the deletion of articles about marginally notable people, and in fact asks other editors to gain consensus to change it so that it does. See here: ]

What is the way forward for this BLP subject? One way forward could be editors like SlimVirgin, Dweller, DGG, Youreallycan etc working towards creating an addition to BIODEL or to BLPDEL that confirms that marginally notable people, irrespective of whether their BLP is an attack page or not, may request successfully the removal of their BLP from our project.

Ken Arromdee (talk) 15:58, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Any such changes would have to go through a widely advertised RfC. Also, "marginally notable" is just another way to say "person who complains a lot about their bio". Either you are notable, or you aren't. Personally, I would rather dicuss raising the notability bar for certain professions rather than discuss ways to compromise Misplaced Pages's neutrality by allowing subjects to dictate our content. Resolute 16:01, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Well, look at the sources in Hawkins' biography. More than half of them primary sources (local BBC), plus a few regional. Nothing national, except a bare mention in the Guardian. The man arguably fails GNG altogether. --JN466 16:34, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

The outcome of the AFD disagreed. Resolute 17:26, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

The BBC isn't a primary source unless you're claiming that the person from the BBC personally knows everything about Mr Hawkins and is writing from their own experience. Some of them are written by Hawkins himself and are primary but most will be secondary or tertiary. The question of whether they are secondary independent or secondary non-independent is another issue. In an organisation as big as the BBC there's every likelihood that the web editors will write and edit independently from presenters so even the claim that the sources are non-independent secondary is probably an unlikely one to be true. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 18:34, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Stuart, if ibm.com hosts a resumé or CV of one of their managers, that is a primary source. Likewise if ibm.com hosts a page on a project that manager leads. People get confused because they see BBC and think it is a secondary source. It isn't in such a case. Notability is demonstrated by coverage in independent reliable secondary sources. A BBC page about a BBC employee is reliable, but it is not independent, and it is not secondary. JN466 19:45, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Jayen, yes if IBM.com hosts a resumé or CV written by one of their managers, that is a primary source. However if a biography of one of their managers is written by an IBM PR person analyzing primary sources (HR records, external sources) and not based on their own experiences of the manager then it is definitely a secondary source. The fact it is hosted on IBM.com is not what makes it primary or secondary it is who has written it and where has the information come from. In this case the BBC person is not writing based on their experiences of Hawkins, but by analysing sources about Hawkins - this clearly makes it Secondary (or possibly tertiary) whether or not that person and Hawkins share a connection in the BBC. WP:PSTS outlines the differences between Primary, Secondary and Tertiary and for each of these there is the added consideration of whether the source is independent, or non-independent but this is a separate issue. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 21:49, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

A BBC blurb or advertisement for one of Hawkins' programmes is neither secondary nor independent, even if it includes a short bio sketch. (A review of his programme in the Guardian, say, would be a secondary source.) Not to mention that a good few of the dozen sources were written by Hawkins himself: . More generally, if you were to try to establish notability for any employee of a company based on a couple of brief bio sketches on the company's websites, you would fail. --JN466 23:08, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

You can't make that assertion without knowing who wrote it, where their information came from, and what their connection with the show is - the basis that both are employed by the BBC is not enough and I already said "Some of them are written by Hawkins himself and are primary" - The problem with your last point is that nearly every Journalist or Presenter (Radio or TV) on Misplaced Pages are primarily noted in works they have created rather than works created about them. And often when works are created about them, they are created primarily in media associated with them. That's all the way down from Pulitzer Prize winners. Yes it doesn't apply to employees of companies in other fields, but we generally presume that media organisations will maintain their standards of neutrality, and fact checking when writing about their own employees - if you think this should be changed, then again that's a discussion for a policy page. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 09:17, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose - While I agree with the suggestion up to a point, a policy that would permit the US President to have his article deleted would not be appropriate. Rather, there could be guidelines defining for BLPs with moderate or less notability. That would be a subset of existing notability guidelines and would take some work to set up. But (just taking US politicians), presidents, congressmen, cabinet members, governors would definitely not qualify. There are others such as (as much as it would be desirable to keep the guidelines as objective as possible) mayors of major cities. Of course, other categories of BLP would need to have their own guidelines (e.g., for US sports I would suggest that MLB, NHL, NBA and NFL players would not qualify). But for the remainder, I would have no problem with a policy permitting them to opt put of having a Misplaced Pages article despite meeting our notability guidelines. Rlendog (talk) 14:21, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
  • I dont know that your suggestion is any more workable. What about the seemingly endless crop of celebutaunts - people whose whole "livelyhood" is based on their public presence, and generally the notoriety around it. When would they become "not deletable"? When they have their own reality series? When the reality series hits a certain Neilson rating? X number of twitter followers?-- The Red Pen of Doom 18:41, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
• Support This is a very good suggestion. An alternative suggestion could be that BIODELETE is replaced with BIOKEEP, and we start erring on the side of the subject's request for deletion. Alex Harvey (talk) 15:14, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose Can't see why wikistress for wikipedians matters as much as the rationale for this proposals suggests, also find the premise doubtful that this will reduce wikistress, by having subjects exercise rational and irrational content veto. In short, not a recipe for peace. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:24, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
• Um. Obviously the original proposal isn't workable, but what we could do is to say that biographies of marginally notable people should be deleted upon request. I think that's workable enough. Ken Arromdee (talk) 18:44, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
• Support Tarc's request (with a condition). I confess my immediate reaction was somewhere between "no" and "hell,no" so I am sympathetic to anyone who reached that conclusion. Any other proposal requires some judgment, which is not an automatic bar to approval, but judgement, is, well judgement, and will virtually guarantee that we retain articles when some subjects and editors feel otherwise. This is inevitable when it comes to non-living subjects, but it is appropriate to treat living subjects specially. The proposal ha the virtue of not requiring judgement; if the subject requests removal, it is removed, no issues about marginal notability, or requirements for satisfactory reasons.
  

My one condition is intended to help alleviate the concerns of some of those who are opposed, as it may help keep the examples to a minimum—if any living person makes such a request, the article body is removed, but the title remains, and boilerplate text (e.g article removed upon request of the subject) added. This will make it clear that the lack of an article isn't just happenstance, and peer pressure will keep truly notable people from requesting removal. It almost certainly will mean the removal of some small number of marginal bio's, but that is a small price to pay for the ability to have a clear policy that would blunt the ability of subjects to complain publicly.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 20:42, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

In every other article linking to the biography or mentioning the name, do we also have a template bot removing the subjects name and inserting Template:Name removed by request or whole sentences Template:Sentence/paragraph removed by request? Sounds like a whole new blue link style. Except not as informative. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:15, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

• Strong no - I already said this on the mailing list, but for the record here...

I disagree even with the more aggressive uses of BIODELETE now. BLP is a good idea, to take human effects of articles on living people into account. But we are an encyclopedia, and we contain articles on people and things. A biographical article's content may upset the subject; if that content is not NPOV and well sourced and so forth we need to correct that tout suite. An articles existence, once it's NPOV and well sourced, may still upset the subject, but at that point our role and project goal to be an encyclopedia becomes the dominant factor.

This is not to say that we should never delete those bios, nor that the subjects wishes have NO bearing. They're relevant to discussions and an issue. But the longstanding deletion criteria and process work just fine. Not every time, but the failures are those of particular implementation not the underlying policy or core project values.

We should not compromise core project values to make biography subjects feel happier.

Adjusting BLP a bit to try and discourage the grey area / corner cases is one thing. This proposal is an abdication of the project objective of being an encyclopedia (first), and is not OK. No. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 23:30, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Well, something needs to be done, because in many cases we are simply not living up to that project objective, as the #Examples above show. We have had over a decade, our biographies are more notable than ever before and as crap as ever, and editors are spread thinner than ever before relative to the total number of biographies Misplaced Pages contains. This will not get better by itself, George. JN466 17:21, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

• All of you who are opposing Tarc's idea are unmitigated jackasses and really don't deserve to be part of something like Misplaced Pages. I don't know if your mothers didn't give you enough love, and/or you are so fat or boring that you need to take out your insecurities on people who are more popular, rich, and powerful than you are. These are real people who are having their identities threatened by noobs like yourselves with half-baked, idiotic life philosophies and authoritarian power-trips. Grow up and try to think with some maturity. And Fae, you might should reflect on the criticism coming your way. If the Wikimedia UK never gains much credibility, it will be in a large part because of your continuously childish actions and comments in Misplaced Pages. Take some accountability and grow up, please. Cla68 (talk) 04:39, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

• If this is meant to be satirical, it's hilarious. If it isn't...those opposing are unmitigated kettles. And some might only be teacups. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:27, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

• As one of the "unmitigated jackasses", I would like to ask how deleting a perfectly good biography on IDONTLIKEIT grounds would help Misplaced Pages. The only people who would benefit would be self-obsessed celebrities, politicians and the like, who want people to read only their personal websites and other PR guff.--♦IanMacM♦ 04:51, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
  • As one of the "unmitigated jennyasses" (I'm female), I agree with ianmacm's comments. I have no interest in Hawkins whatsoever, but what gets me is the power trips these minor celebs get off on. We are an encyclopedia, a vehicle to impart knowledge not a blog set up to cater to the whims and caprices of public figures. If we start by deleting articles upon the subject's request, what will be next, remove unflattering photos, censor details of the critical reception his of her last film received, and so on.....Public figures need to accept the responsibilities along with the perks of being a "star", and this means letting photographers snap your photo, signing autographs for fans, and not moaning about having an article in Misplaced Pages.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:08, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
• Rather doubt that name calling and talking about people's mothers, shows any strength in the argument or reflects well on it. It certainly, doesn't make it reasonable. Perhaps, if exclamation points were added or caps. Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:43, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Don't Bight The Ips

What are you going to do about users being mean to Ips,treating them like their not welcome,cause it is almost like racism? May I suggest a WP:DON'TBITETHEIPS (Misplaced Pages:Don't Bight The Ips) 74.163.16.52 00:44, 5 April 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.163.16.52 (talk)

Definitely, but why use an IP? Mugginsx (talk) 14:41, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Muggins, that's just the kind of blatant prejudice my people have come to expect from you logged-ins. ;) FormerIP (talk) 14:49, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

It was a simple question and I was honestly curious. OK, I get it now, it was a setup and I fell right into it. A gotcha banner for you. Mugginsx (talk) 15:04, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't think people should be mean to anyone. I do think people should get accounts if they'd like to make friends and be remembered by others. The thing about editing as an ip number is that people don't really remember them well from one interaction to the next. Additionally, I'm happy to say, in an encyclopedia editing community, spelling counts! So, people will tend to be more friendly if you write carefully. We shouldn't be mean to people for poor spelling abilities, of course. But naturally, it's annoying to us when someone hasn't taken the time to look over their writing for spelling problems.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:17, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Oh I'm remembered by others alright,But sir it is not just that,users tell Ips "go away" or call them "Drive by users",it is internet racism,and they know it is wrong.~76naMsliaT~--74.163.16.52 (talk) 15:32, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

I think it is pretty silly to call it 'racism'. One of the reasons people unfortunately harden into bad attitudes towards ip numbers is that they say silly things a lot.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:46, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Best. Reply. Ever. — The Hand That Feeds You: 16:04, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Some admins want to just ban Ips for the word of a user,It is an unfair court case. Also I'm sure you could have a Misplaced Pages:Don't Bight The Ips, if they have something like Misplaced Pages:Don't-give-a-fuckism.74.163.16.52 (talk) 16:23, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages doesn't have courts. Perhaps Arbcom might be considered one. But there is no "law" here and no crimes. Bans and blocks are the right of any website.--v/r - TP 19:26, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

For a bit of perspective, please see User:Salvidrim/Tailsman67. Favonian (talk) 16:46, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Well,well, I guest "The Theory of Usertivie "work,I served my time,oh and stop WP:STALKing me.I changed.74.163.16.52 (talk) 16:50, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree that we shouldn't bite IPs. I don't agree with any complaints that try to compare the issue to racism or sexism or pick whichever the fuckism you want to. I love IP edits in general. Your particular history I do question, but that's not because you aren't logged in....it's because of your specific actions. --Onorem♠Dil 17:31, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank you,so you going to create a page for it?74.163.16.52 (talk) 17:32, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

There is no need for a page to be created. It's all covered by current policy.--Onorem♠Dil 17:38, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

• As mentioned above, I am convinced that other editors would react the same way if you were using an account instead of successive IPs, Tailsman. You're presently de facto community banned, but that's due to your actions & behaviour, not because of your refusal to create a stable account. Coming back after days saying "I've changed" isn't going to convinc anyone (whether true or not) as you're still under a range-block sanction (in addition to the abovementioned community ban); your very presence indicates that you're evading the latest block, thus robs your words of any credibility they may have otherwise carried. However your persistence shows that you can be dedicated, therefore I am hoping to see you again in maybe a year so we can start working constructively on Misplaced Pages. :) Salvidrim! 22:19, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

• "I think it is pretty silly to call it 'racism'. One of the reasons people unfortunately harden into bad attitudes towards ip numbers is that they say silly things a lot. --Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:46, 5 April 2012 (UTC)"

I think that's a pretty unfair generalization, and a good example of that 'racism' at least metaphorically. Their use of "racism" here was clearly just the most accessible term to them, and it's not fair to nitpick its accuracy to invalidate the overall point. We all know what they meant. Though it may sound "silly" to equate this with "racism" because racism is an astronomically more serious real-world problem, the principle is the same: people generalize about a group based on its worst examples. It happens here. Also consider that people who haven't registered here are more likely to say "silly"-sounding things out of inexperience with Misplaced Pages and/or the language. Equazcion 09:08, 6 Apr 2012 (UTC)

• Last time I looked, bite was thus spelt, not "bight". --JN466 14:35, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Ahh, but he's saying he doesn't want you to keep IPs at bay101.118.33.111 (talk) 22:58, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Ah, but don't we also use "lite" (i.e. Miller Lite) instead of "light" (i.e. the abomination called Heineken Light)? --MuZemike 19:54, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Of course it could be a pun based on "a loop of rope" placed around an IP, of course. Collect (talk) 23:33, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

I suppose it's all just part of an IP number's rights of passage. --JN466 17:28, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

What's the best course of action?

I've become aware of a BLP that was deleted back in December 2009 as a creation by a banned user in violation of the ban. The subject, who had nothing to do with anything, feels a little bit sad (my interpretation) that this happened. As far as I can tell, the subject is a valid subject for a BLP entry. The deleted article seems fine, a bit stubby but otherwise fine.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:24, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

I'd say: Undelete it if you can vouch for the content - especially given the length of time since deletion. The principle of deleting banned users contributions comes out of WP:DENY - but based on past discussions (note: just what I have picked up) if an editor in good standing vouches for the information and restores it no one blinks. --Errant 15:33, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

That makes sense to me. I very much support WP:DENY and as it has been more than 2 years, I think the denial has either been effective already or didn't help. It'll take a few days until I have time to review the content personally, so I wonder if there's a good place to ask others to help. Would this be appropriate for deletion review?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:42, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

The specific policy wording is here (I had to locate it because I've never read it before). The implication seems to be... if it was G5'd, the content was good, and you will take responsibility for it once restored... undelete :) I think deletion review would largely be bureaucracy. Again, just my 2 cents. --Errant 16:01, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. "Wikipedians in turn are not permitted to post or edit material at the direction of a banned editor ... unless they are able to confirm that the changes are verifiable and they have independent reasons for making them." Which hits the nail on the head here. The policy says the banned editor's edits can be reverted - which was done when the article was deleted - but says nothing about people being free to undo your edits. Wnt (talk) 18:46, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

That clause of the banning policy was added by a banned user. 71.215.74.243 (talk) 10:40, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

ROFL, sort of. What percentage of editors are banned by now? Wnt (talk) 13:41, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

The sooner everyone gets banned, the sooner everyone capable of refraining from saying silly things gets to experience the luxury of drama-free editing. 71.215.74.243 (talk) 23:36, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

• DRV doesn't seem appropriate because the deletion was proper. If you userfy the article to me after your review, I would be happy to review and improve, and let anyone comment if necessary. An AfD can be initiated if notability is in dispute based on what we can create.--Milowent • 16:03, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

• Btw, there's also Misplaced Pages:Article Incubator, but my experience is that articles linger outside mainspace unless someone volunteers to take ones on.--Milowent • 16:05, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

• I've never agreed with that part of the banning policy. If the banned user was known for copyright violations, that's one thing, but to destroy completely functional articles just because we don't want to give "credit" to the user, per DENY, just seems overwhelmingly stupid. What if the banned user was using an account that remained undetected for a significant amount of time and created a large amount of articles in that time that, functionally, has no issues? Sure, sure, you can say that people can vouch for them individually, but people only do that very rarely in the scheme of things and all the rest of that positive content is then destroyed. This just seems to be in direct violation to our entire purpose to me. Silverseren 16:26, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
• WP:REFUND might handle such requests as well. I don't use it very often, and I expect that such restorations would largely depend on the admin handling the particular request at the time. I agree that G5'ed content can be "proxied" by any editor in good standing. ArbCom has repeatedly endorsed the proxying of articles written by vexatious banned editors to en.wiki by editors in good standing on en.wiki. (As a side note, the volunteers who did this at first seemed to become fatigued by the effort involved) Jclemens (talk) 16:48, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

  If the article is OK, I'd say just undelete it. I don't think there's any need for DRV, as it isn't a contested deletion - the deletion at the time was appropriate. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:21, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

• Why not userify into your user space? Post a link to it and we can all look at it/work on it before moving to article space? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:36, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
• I can definitely agree with Userfying before moving to mainspace. Salvidrim! 22:21, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

If we are not allowed to remove contributions by banned users who willfully violate their ban because they can, then why have bans or blocks in the first place, knowing that people who are knowledgeable enough can waltz right back in and continue to contribute? --MuZemike 23:56, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

On the other hand, completely disabling all content created by blocked users, when such content would other benefit the encyclopedia, may be considered as enabling the vandals to continue hurting the encyclopedia. I believe userfying and allowing another editor in good standing to edit & create a valid article is both standard practice and desirable. Salvidrim! 23:58, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

No one said you weren't allowed. Assuming in this particular case it was a good contribution, it would seem unnecessarily petty to enforce a ban by removing good content (cut your nose to spite your face). Bans are the result of a user whose contributions are usually disruptive; if he comes back and happens to get something good through, there's no reason not to consider it on its merits, while still preventing him from continuing to edit in the future, since we know that he's proven to not usually be as helpful. Equazcion 05:14, 6 Apr 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. If we allow site-banned users to continue to contribute, then we send the message that the site-ban doesn't mean much to them. If that is the case, then the community is obligated to reassess said site-ban. The community cannot be saying one thing and then do another. --MuZemike 19:50, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Well, I'm not saying we should allow them to continue to contribute, rather the opposite. Reassessing the ban would be reserved for cases where there's new reason to believe the user will continue to contribute positively, but one good contribution doesn't qualify as such a reason. If something good is already there, and we block the new account, then go as far as to remove the good contribution merely because of who made it, the fact that it was a good contrib means it should probably be replaced by someone else? ...which seems superfluous just to defend the ideal of a ban, with no practical gain. If you're saying the good contrib should be removed permanently and not replaced by anyone, then something beneficial is lost. Content takes a backseat in favor of keeping the banned user from having the satisfaction of a standing contribution? If we're to regard bans as "preventative not punitive" then I think your reasoning is flawed. Equazcion 20:10, 6 Apr 2012 (UTC)

Back on main point - I agree with those above that if you've (or anyone else, for that matter) find something that a banned user did and was removed, but was a good edit (or article), and can independently verify that the info is good and you're willing to take responsibility for that, go ahead and recreate. We cannot allow banned users to effectively have an article content or creation veto (ability to salt content or topics) by them getting involved in editing something, whether that's their intention or not. If it's good info, another responsible person can take responsibility for it.

We should still remove it the first time. But putting it back at least somewhat later - preferably paraphrased to continue some DENY - may be a good idea. Jimmy, you're a credibly responsible person, if you did the research and the person asked about it... Go ahead. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 23:37, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

I never really did understand that concept. I know that's been the practice, but it seems to be bureaucracy just for the sake of bureaucracy. Personally I think if an edit adds something positive to the project, then it should be kept; regardless of who added it. But that's just IMHO. — Ched :  ?  23:57, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

I also think that deleting otherwise useful content because a user got banned is a bad idea unless it was due to copyright. Take for example User:Kumioko who left recently. That user created hundreds of articles and had over 320, 000 edits all over the pedia. If we deleted all that, IMO, it would a serious detriment to the pedia. We aren't helping anyone by force removing otherwise good content. With that said and the above arguments aside, if the articles was deleted more than 2 years ago and hasn't been recreated then is it really notable. It seems like if it was it would have already been recreated. 71.163.243.232 (talk) 14:13, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

The removal policy only applies to anything added after the ban. And Kumioko isn't banned anyway. Are you. Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:54, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Autism-spectrum editors - new user essay

Following input from both here and elsewhere, I have written a new user essay which I hope may be helpful in smoothing out interactions between autism-spectrum and neurotypical editors. Shortcuts are WP:AUTIE and WP:ASPIE. Please feel free to link editors to this essay whenever you think it may be useful. Pesky (talk) 08:06, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

A great idea!!!! We had a relative-through-marriage over Christmas holidays as a guest who was a high functioning austistic. He was absolutely fascinating to listen to and we had a very educational, interesting, enjoyable and happy day together with him.Mugginsx (talk) 13:06, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

I fear these shortcuts (also the recent WP:HOMO) will often be used in unfortunate ways. Wnt (talk) 13:39, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

No matter what helpful tool mankind invents, someone will use it in an unfortunate way! But I'm not going to throw away my favourite carving knife just because some people are homicidal maniacs ... ;P

Mugginsx, I'm a high-functioning autistic myself; I have several relatives on the autism spectrum, I know several Misplaced Pages editors also on it, and in my professional life I've taught a lot of people on it, as well. The levels of genius one can encounter at times are quite awesome. Pesky (talk) 13:45, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

I fully agree. Just taking one aspect - What I would not give for a memory like that! All my life I have been plagued by a bad memory. Had to record my college classes and listen over and over again to them to get a good grade. My husband could read something once and remember it years later. It is truly a great gift! Your links are interesting. Mugginsx (talk) 15:55, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

I searched for a relevant subcategory in Category:Wikipedians, and I found none.

—Wavelength (talk) 16:23, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

I remember a community discussion & decision against these categories taking place in the not-so-distant past. Salvidrim! 16:34, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes. Which may well be a reflection of (amongst other things) the impossibility of putting a spectrum into a category. Or at least, the inadvisability of trying. Misplaced Pages already spends to much time trying to fit other people into arbitrary metaphorical boxes - we don't need to start doing it to ourselves as well. Just a thought... AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:40, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Oh, but weren't you dying to know which editors sleep in their undies? Tarc (talk) 16:48, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Editor. (Single). I wonder what the rest of us are sleeping in? -- The Red Pen of Doom 16:57, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Erm...a bed? Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:23, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

I did a Google search for interactions between autism-spectrum and neurotypical, and I found the following pages.

• http://www.autism-society.org/living-with-autism/treatment-options/learningeachotherslanguage.pdf
• Six Rules Regarding Autistic Interactions

—Wavelength (talk) 17:04, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Wavelength – fantastic links, I'll add those to the essay under a further reading heading. Those are really good. Tarc: what about Users who edit in their PJ's? ;P Pesky (talk) 17:42, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Doesn't everybody? Mugginsx (talk) 18:55, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Some of this makes me chuckle -- got to be good! I think the autism society article linked above () is very well written, though there's nothing specific there about communicating online. For example, in everyday life I can see when somebody is avoiding all eye contact, but online I can't. In fact, often it's hard to understand what sort of a person it is we're talking to. So it's good if essays like Pesky's can elucidate some of the issues. Recently, I've had a strange experience trying to communicate with a notoriously disruptive POV pusher; in the process, I was surprised to find (and I wasn't the only one) some endearingly sincere characteristics within a set of notoriously difficult personality traits. Nothing to do with autism in that case, I'd guess, but it illustrated to me how tempting it is to take the person behind the nick for granted. Sometimes I wonder whether it might be a good thing some Misplaced Pages contributors to take on a caring role around and about -- as Pesky and others perhaps already do -- to facilitate mutual understanding. But I've strayed OT, sorry... —MistyMorn (talk) 19:36, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages has Misplaced Pages:Adopt-a-user and Misplaced Pages:Mentorship.

—Wavelength (talk) 20:00, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, WL. I was thinking also in more informal ways -- what one might call a caring approach perhaps -- but that's not altogether risk free either... —MistyMorn (talk) 20:08, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

You may be interested in Category:User essays on civility. (My username is "Wavelength".)

—Wavelength (talk) 20:52, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, Wavelength -- I'll certainly look at those. —MistyMorn (talk) 20:55, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Hi Pesky. I support the idea of having an essay such as this, and I like some aspects of what you have written. I particularly like the the parts where you focus on the practicalities of interaction between ASD and neurotypical people.

However (could you tell there was going to be a "however"?), I think we should take care about how we inform readers about science, almost as much in an essay as in an article. So, for example, you attempt to explain ASD in terms of "brain-wiring", but what is different about your brain and mine is not something that is well-understood at the moment, and there are various competing theories. And I can understand why you would want to suggest that autism isn't a disorder - but, according to Misplaced Pages and the American Psychiatric Association, it is.

I don't mean to slap you with a wet fish, but I think it's important to be pernickity about this type of thing. FormerIP (talk) 20:42, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

I'll choose to interpret it as constructive criticism rather than a wet-fish-slap! I've cited some of the studies of fMRI investigations for the brain-wiring bit (the same ones as are cited in whichever article it was I pinched them from). There does seem to be a reasonably sound scientific basis for the brain wiring thing, which I've tried to reduce to terms easily understood by the layman / younger editor / ESL editor. I know that technically it's a "disorder" – but that's really just a label. Some of the other disorders have to include "being upset by it" (or similar wording) before they'll classify something as a disorder. So if you have no guilt pangs or hassles about really major obsessive-compulsiveness, for example, you don't have a disorder, but the guy down the road who's only barely obsessive-compulsive but it's causing him real anxieties, hassles, difficulty with his life, does have a "disorder". Definitions change every few years; I think (personally) that it's more constructive for people (autism-spectrum or those working with them) to perceive it as a difference, as once we start getting into the language of disorders and disabilities, some people start feeling they are superior or inferior beings because of the bloody label ... labels can do so much unnecessary collateral damage! Pesky (talk) 21:15, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

I'd personally prefer to say that "disorder" is a label that may be important to a psychiatrist, but needn't be important to a Wikipedian. Maybe the best approach in your essay would be just not to use the word "disorder" at all.

AFAIK (which is a bit but far from everything) you are right that there is scientific support for various different theories - not just one - which suggest a link between ASD and connectivity in different parts of the brain. But there are also other theories and indications that other things may be going on in an autistic brain which not about "sparse wiring". There are also theories about excessive wiring, the sizes of various cells and structures, the way particular bits operate (e.g. Mirror neurons) and probably other things I don't know about. On top of that, there's often a cause-and-effect puzzle - if an autistic brain is showing low connectivity between two parts of the brain in a given task, does that mean there's a block or does it mean that neurons are not even trying to behave typically? The overall picture is complicated. The reality may be that there are multiple things going on. But I think it would be a bad thing for your essay to make it seem as if science has one particular answer. FormerIP (talk) 21:54, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

I'll re-read the articles in that encyclopedia-wossname (you know the one?) and maybe bung another couple of things in. But I'll have to word them / metaphorise them so that the concepts are easy for people of all types to understand, parallelled with familiar things, and so on. If you've got any particular suggestions for strongly science-based theories, drop them on the essay's talk page, with appropriate citations. Re the excessive "wiring" (in some areas), I think I covered that bit OK. The main thing I really want to get across in the essay is for people to understand that their way of thinking isn't the only way of thinking, and everything else must be lazy / crazy / stubborn / stupid or inferior. Everyone thinks that what they are is "normal"! Pesky (talk) 22:02, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

By suppressing the temporal lobe, normal people can improve in some tasks that high functioning autists are good at, see here and here. Count Iblis (talk) 01:28, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

As long as that doesn't mean more people people will become really good at mass-creating tons of Misplaced Pages accounts with really garbled names, like this little creep (he's a good reminder that autism is a spectrum; like every other group in life, some are just plain annoying), that's pretty cool. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 01:55, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

@Count Iblis: thank you very much for those extra links; as a result I've slightly tweaked the wording in my essay and added those as citations. Hugz! I'm finding all this quite exciting (am I a sad individual? lol!)

@ Blade: wow! I recognise this thing (no, not the editor, what he does). He has a naming fascination; maybe his mother could give him a real-world task like thinking up names for abandoned or stray animals at the local rescue centre? He would probably really like it, especially if he could see the name he's created attached to a real living creature. Pesky (talk) 07:09, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Speaking of new essays ...

Having found that a lot of editors seem to judge essays at MfD on the basis of whther the essay "only represents minority consensus" (I have no idea what that means <g>) or whether the essay is "right", I used the famed "Voltaire quotation" as a basis for WP:DEFEND which I would hope meets with your approbation. Merci. Collect (talk) 12:15, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Hi Jimbo, Collect is making light of WP:HOMO (under deletion discussion here). I would be interested in your opinion on this one, as I am unclear if you would be personally happy to see that all LGBT editors (or those thought to be) on Misplaced Pages could freely be called "queer" by others. Further, regardless at how malicious homophobic comments were from editors about other editors, it would be treated as an offence to call any of them "homophobic". Consequently, the recent fracas about Russavia being told to fuck off with his queer agenda would be easily resolved, and indeed all contributors would be empowered to say exactly the same thing or much worse to any editor and administrators would not be expected to interfere in our brave new world of free speech, including hate speech. Not the interpretation of Five pillars with regard to respect that I thought to see in 2012.

What most would think as unacceptable abusive behaviour in society seems to go unchallenged, or met by silence and inaction by those that have a duty of care on Misplaced Pages; as we have seen with recent cases seen by many as motivated by homophobia and previously flagged for your information here. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 13:32, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Hi Fae. When making errant claims about what other editors say, it does not seem quite proper to assert 180 degrees from the actual facts. And note the inane aside about somehow implying that I have called or would call, or would defens anyone calling any editor "Q...." is an abuse, in my opinion, of this user talk page. As well as the implication that I made any "malicious homophobic remarks" - I expect you to emend your post accordingly. Or else prove where I made "homophobic remarks." BTW, note my position at m:DICK wherein my position on civil language is made, I trust, clear. My position here is that removing essays because they are "wrong" is not a great idea on Misplaced Pages. Cheers. Collect (talk) 20:34, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

I think you may be confusing imply and infer. No doubt it is true that you are inferring that responses to Wikid77's inflammatory and defamatory essay are all about you. However that is not what I have written above. As for me being "inane", to my ears I normally sound more urbane. --Fæ (talk) 08:23, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

What you clearly wrote was I am unclear if you would be personally happy to see that all LGBT editors (or those thought to be) on Misplaced Pages could freely be called "queer" by others which I find offensive, and which you apparently feel is the right way to talk about other editors. I do not feel that is a proper way to talk about other editors. Cheers - and I iterate my request that you remove the material wherein you make inapt and wrongful comments about me. Collect (talk) 11:08, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Hi Collect, at the time when you started this thread the essay in question did say that Queer was an acceptable term. Glad to see that you aren't defending that part of the essay, but don't be surprised if people assume a blanket defence of the original version of the essay means that you are comfortable with the contents of it. ϢereSpielChequers 09:09, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

I do not agree with what essays may say, but I defend the right of the essay to exist. Once we remove all "wrng essays" then we have, indeed, reached an Orwellian state. Cheers. Collect (talk) 11:08, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

90% of the accusations of homophobia that I see here are basic incivilty - but an actual essay about that... that seems problematic. Certain elements of the LGBT community do misuse that word as much as possible to label and attack detractors (i.e. ad hominem), but there are some genuine cases that need addressing. fwiw I object to you're characterisation of "Russavia being told to fuck off with his queer agenda"; which is an extremely liberal interpretation of the phrasing --Errant 17:52, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Based on timing and who wrote it, the example characterisation I gave is exactly what the essay has been written to defend. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 17:54, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Yep; and I don't disagree. However your description of what Russavia was told is utterly innacurate - which is part of the point I was making --Errant 17:59, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I thought it was close enough. The offensive and homophobic statement was "Was it your queer agenda? - or just your fucking agenda, can't you just pack all your fucking agendas in your fucking suitcase and Fuck off?". Wikid77's essay is a defence of that type of behaviour and the lengthy discussion on WP:ANI shows that Misplaced Pages does not take any firm stance against it. If we need an expert view, I would be happy to write a letter to get an opinion off Stonewall and publish the reply to see if this is quite homophobic enough to carry the label of homophobia. If I were to compare to racist comments about black people; if enough black people complained we would certainly judge offensive language as racist without endlessly wikilawyering, the same should apply when LGBT people complain about this sort of abusive language. I do not expect to have to start an off-wiki campaign of lobbying for policy improvement in this area. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 18:05, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

And the critical missing piece of information is that the word "fuck" was introduced by Russavia (in relation to his article on a place called Fucking). I'm happy to disagree on the homophobia charge (which I still think is incorrect), but you're characterisation is misleading on the content of the message. I find that intellectually fraudulent. --Errant 18:13, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes there was a link to the article on the Austrian town of that name, but I'm really not convinced that the F word was being used in the geographic context, especially by the fourth usage in that sentence. I think the Stonewall suggestion is a good one. It would show a determination to take the situation seriously and to sort out this problem at an early stage. ϢereSpielChequers 20:54, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Of course it was meant in the other way; but I question the initial use of it too, having the same connotations (i.e. confrontational and divisive). For better or worse (I say better) the LGBT community has recaptured the word queer, and its use can hardly be demonstrative of homophobia (because that is hypocritical). I'm a well known critic of large swathes of the LGBT community (which, ironically, means they assume I am not part of that commmunity); they are objectionable, annoying and do as much to put back progressive views of homosexuality as the real homophobes. To criticise the LGBT community just gets you branded a homophobe; and that is downright annoying. --Errant 10:36, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

I am sorry you find the LGBT community objectionable and annoying. From your statement, it appears that you would like the LGBT community to leave Misplaced Pages alone so you and your friends can own it in peace and quiet, being free to refer to them collectively as annoying hypocritical queers. In a similar way to gay people and the word "queer", many black people have reclaimed the n-word and on many London streets I hear it in common use by young black people when talking to each other. Do you think that black people complaining when others refer to them using the n-word is also hypocritical? Perhaps you could start an essay taking that position, creating a simple shortcut using the same n-word, just so you can demonstrate how well rounded you are and this is not just about nasty queers. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 11:10, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Jimbo Wales' Email Address

I edited Jimbo Wales' user page because I thought that his email address was too far from where it first mentions his email, especially when viewed on a mobile phone. It was reverted by Bwilkins on the grounds that email addresses should only show up once per page. I accept this point of view but would it not be better for the address to appear where it is first mentioned. i.e. If your press inquiry is strictly regarding Misplaced Pages or another Wikimedia project, you can contact me directly by e-mail at jimbo at jwaleswikia.com or you can call the Foundation office and speak to our communications person, Jay, at +1 (415) 839-6885.

If it is regarded by the community that an email address should only appear once per page can someone explain to me why it is OK that Topher's email address is mentioned twice in the same paragraph and Jimbo's only once on the whole page.

Thanks, Paul Bates 1973 (talk) 19:45, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

I am a new editor and I have been reading the Misplaced Pages Policies. I used BRD. I was bold, I edited Jimbo Wales' User Page, It was reverted. Now I am discussing it. I understand that Bwilkins has a different point of view than me. He seems to be a highly experienced and respected editor, but according to what I have read, his view holds no more weight than mine. I haven't been convinced by his argument that the email address is in the right place because it should only appear once. If anyone has any comments that would help please make them, I intend to re-edit the page if nobody objects. As I said I am new so if I am going about this the wrong way then please feel free to give me advice. Paul Bates 1973 (talk) 11:00, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

EMERGENCY

The user MikeWazowski is treating all of us users like dirt, and he doesn't even care. Misplaced Pages is supposed to be a peaceful place. It's him that turned the wiki into a hell-home. He has made dumb rules to the wiki. PERMANENTLY BLOCK HIM NOW. The Web of TV3. (talk) 20:47, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps try posting your concerns at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents? —MistyMorn (talk) 21:10, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

No thanks. The Web of TV3. (talk) 21:11, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

WebTV3 is just upset because I corrected and warned him about a series of pagemoves he did that were against naming conventions, as well as correcting some other misinformation or unnecessary edits he's recently added. Along with some uncalled for personal attacks on me posted to his talk page, he's blown this incredibly out of proportion. MikeWazowski (talk) 21:16, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Support Mike This will definetely not go very far at ANI which is probably why s/he is refusing to do so. I'm anxious to see this and will get some popcorn as well. This certainly peaked my interest.—cyberpower _Online 21:32, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

WARNING If he wins, he'll destroy Misplaced Pages. WebTV3

Grow up... AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:49, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Seriously.—cyberpower _Online 22:08, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

You win, Mike. My last message, from me, WebTV3. Don't talk to me.

User talk:RHaworth What the heck is going on with his speedy deletions of these two articles within five minutes?

User talk:RHaworth didn't even give me fifteen minutes to see and to explain why these two articles: William Mullins (Mayflower Pilgrim) (Pilgrim added later) and Edward Tilley (Mayflower Pilgrim) should not be deleted.

Who deletes an article on a Mayflower Pilgrim and Mayflower Compact signer.

They are also mentioned in three other Misplaced Pages articles:

• Mayflower Compact scholars state it is the first Constitution
• Mayflower Passenger List
• Mayflower passengers who died in the winter of 1620–1621

The same is true for the second article. Then HE CHANGES HIS MIND AND summarily changed the name WITHOUT DISCUSSION taking off the (Mayflower Pilgrim) in the title which clearly identifies them with the many other Mayflower Pilgrim articles. Why bother to put the contested page up if they are not even going to give an editor or editors a chance to reply. What a farce! Does he know nothing of American History. Did he never hear of the Mayflower or the Mayflower Compact, both of which make both men NOTABLE. and under what rationale does he change the title which clearly identifies who the men are and what make them notable in American History not to mention that it joins all Mayflower Pilgrims articles together.

Please check the timestamps. Mugginsx (talk) 22:13, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

He didn't delete either article, he moved them both to a location consistent with our article naming policy, since no disambiguation is required here there in no need for (Mayflower Pilgrim) in the title Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 22:24, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Communication is a wonderful thing that helps people understand why. I'm not sure how old these articles are/were, but if they are brand new, RHaworth ought to have explained his actions briefly to the author. -- Avanu (talk) 22:29, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

One is new and the other has been edited and expanded from a stub today. He does not have the right to change these articles without consensus and arbitrarily. There was no request, there was no discussion, there was no consensus.He just didn't like it. It is important in American History and to Americans. Perhaps not to him, I do not know. It is often researched by students, etc. Mugginsx (talk) 22:32, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

'How about if we take the Royalty articles or Aristocrats Earls etc., and take off their titles on all their articles? Some of which I edited on. I bet that would cause some concern to him and every European. IT WOULD NOT BE TOLERATED Mugginsx (talk) 22:34, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

He does not have the right to change these articles without consensus and arbitrarily. Er... Right under every edit box is the disclaimer: "If you do not want your writing to be edited, used, and redistributed at will, then do not submit it here." —Strange Passerby (talk • cont) 22:41, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

• William Mullins
• Edward Tilley

Both of the articles appear to be right where they belong. As said above, there is no need for disambiguation in either title. If any aristocrats or earls are being unnecessarily disambiguated, I'd expect that it would be tolerated...encouraged even to fix them. --Onorem♠Dil 22:43, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Don't give me that. I have been here too long to swallow that. How about THE EARLS OF CHESTER - Why don't we just leave their name on the title of the article and TAKE OFF THEIR TITLES AND LET EVERYONE FIGURE OUT WHO THEY ARE. How long would that rationale last aye?Mugginsx (talk) 22:51, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

'Mayflower Passenger' isn't a title. It is a description. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:55, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

(ec)Mugginsx you need to relax. Standard article naming rules have been applied here, it has nothing to do with any kind of prejudice or anything of the sort. The articles have been moved to the name of the subject, the earl of Chester is called the earl of Chester, nobody called these pilgrims "William Mayflower Passenger". We only include an explanation of who the subject is when there is someone different with the same name, not for every single article. Stop being so over-dramatic--Jac16888 22:56, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

I will try to calm down but tell me: who is Hugh d'Avranches. OK, so many editors here know but what about the average reader? HE DOES NOT KNOW he is an Earl of Chester. These Pilgrims are less known individually and as a group to research I and others believe that the title would help that cause just as the title of important Europeans are better known for their titles. I think it a fair analogy. Mugginsx (talk) 23:01, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

It's a completely wrong analogy, as Andy says Earl, lord etc are that persons title, "mayfair passenger" is nobodys title. Do you not realise that if someone is trying to find out about one of these passengers on wikipedia, when they search for them they will type "William Mullins", not "William Mullins (Mayflower Passenger)". And in most cases people will find the article through the mayfair article anyway--Jac16888 23:08, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Avanu, First he put them up for speedy deletion and before I could finish explaining why they should NOT be deleted, he changed the title and moved them with just the persons name WITHOUT the title i.e., identifying them as Mayflower Pilgrims (I said passengers before, I apologize). These people are little know except as a group and I and others thought that to identify them all in this manner would be better for researchers just the way TITLES are used in say the Earl of Chester who no American (unless a Wiki editor maybe) would know his name as Hugh d'Avranches. That is I think a fair analogy to an American. I respect you and will go with your opinion but I think I am correct in my strategy for students and researchers. Mugginsx (talk) 23:11, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Now he is saying he never put them up for speedy deletion? I saw the template and answered the questions. It was on both. Then he redirected them Mugginsx (talk) 23:21, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

It's not in the history. If you're going to make accusations up... —Strange Passerby (talk • cont) 23:23, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

I have been here since 2008 and I know what I saw. It is no longer there. I cannot explain, can you? Anyway, I can't compete with an administrator. I don't have the tools nor the power. The only power I have here is my integrity. Also, it was Mayflower Pilgrim not Mayflower Passenger, I mispoke earlier here. And yes, they were known as Pilgrims, that is their title. I have nothing more to say. Mugginsx (talk) 23:35, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

I can explain some of it. Someone tagged Talk:William Mullins for deletion as a testpage . Mugginsx created the page with only a full stop on it (by accident I suppose). RHaworth removed the speedy. Incidentally, Mugginsx, you moved Tilley from Edward Tilley, so RHaworth was only reverting your BOLD but unnecessary move. Elen of the Roads (talk) 01:04, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank you so much Elen. I am not quite sure what you mean about Edward - both names had the titles. It shows that way still on my "favorites bar" but anyway doesn't matter now but thanks for your astute observation.Mugginsx (talk) 01:08, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

<-- This is you Mugginsx moved page Edward Tilley to Edward Tilley (Mayflower Pilgrim): aligned with many other Mayflower Pilgrim articles. Also, many other Tilly articles will be much easier to find with title. RHaworth reverted the move in this case. He didn't make the move. That's all I was saying. Elen of the Roads (talk) 01:41, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I changed the page title to Edward Tilley adding the title (Mayflower Pilgrim). I also changed John Tilley at ]. Thanks for finding the "testpage deletion" I never heard of either a test page deletion or a full stop page creation. I will try to find out what both mean and really, thanks again. Mugginsx (talk) 01:56, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Testpage thingy was weird. Just wanted you to know you weren't imagining seeing a speedy template somewhere in the mix. Elen of the Roads (talk) 02:57, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Happy Easter!

Happy Easter, Jimbo Wales! Hope your day is great! :) Like my singing? Ha-la-la-la-la-la-LA-LAAA!!! (talk) 11:02, 8 April 2012 (UTC)