Talk:Female genital mutilation

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Female genital mutilation is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination was archived. For older candidates, please check the archive.

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September 19, 2011	Featured article candidate	Not promoted

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Language

I think this article should be called “female circumcision” rather than “female genital mutilation”?

“Female circumcision" is the more neutral, more widely used, and longer established terminology.

"FGM" is a loaded term clearly designed to show disapproval, there is clearly political pressure to use this term but wikipedia should not seek to be part of a drive to alter language in such an unencyclopedic fashion. It is better to use a terminology which is well established because otherwise language becomes a shifting sand and arguments which should be about principle decend into a sort of linguistic war where the parties battle mainly to define the terms rather than talking about the underlying issue. With long established terms whether they are “nice sounding” or “nasty sounding” is a less powerful driver of people because the term becomes mainly associated with the thing and less associated with the words that make up the terminology. Eventually, with a long established terms, a person can simply respond that he is against or in favour of a and he can “get away” with it because the terminology is now primarily associated with the more morally ambiguous thing under discussion. As three separate words “female genital mutilation” is not too objectionable (although "partial amputation of the female genitalia” would be better). But the article heading should probably be "female circumcision”.

I may be shutting the door after the horse has bolted here, there are, for example, about twice as many webpage hits on google for “female genital mutilation” as “female circumcision” however it is interesting that, when the person has not searched for either term before the “suggestions” box on google suggests “female circumcision” over “female genital mutilation”. Perhaps suggesting that "female circumcision” is the term used by most searchers. So there is perhaps some hope for the preservation of language in this regard.

It is also noticeable that if, in the definition, "all procedures that involve partial or total removal of the external female genitalia, or other injury to the female genital organs for non-medical reasons.” the word “female” was replaced by the word “male” then this would cover both the practice commonly known as male “circumcision” or, at the other extreme, complete bobbitisation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.97.5.199 (talk) 03:19, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

There is a movement who would like to oppose male circumcision by equating that procedure with FGM (or possibly want to promote FGM by equating it with male circumcision?). However, such viewpoints are not relevant at Misplaced Pages. Instead, please present some reasons for any proposed change based on reliable sources. A good place to start would be by studying the current article and the references that it cites—is any information incorrect, undue, or improperly sourced? Johnuniq (talk) 04:00, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Johnuniq - What? The "moral equivalence" of mutilating either male or female genitalia against the will of the victim? How absurd! Unless of course you could ask the opinion of the victim at the time of the assault / trauma. But I forget, that is only "anecdotal" :-) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.70.208.101 (talk) 22:52, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Cutting genitals for non-medical reasons, as is the case with all circumcision despite the dubious campaign to associate male circumcision with health benefits, is morally equivalent. Regardless of your opinion as to the morality of female and male circumcision it is difficult to argue that the two are massively divergent practices and it is perturbing that they should be treated as such by wikipedia, an ostensibly neutral and factual encyclopedia. Moreover, those who actually practice this ritual do not refer to it as FGM, that term is used only by those who campaign against it (usually in the West) and wikipedia should avoid promoting the political opinions that inhere in the term. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.242.22.248 (talk) 16:47, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

The above comment is not entirely true. To say that no participants of FGM or FC use the term FGM is quite a broad statement. In my research I came across a woman named Dr. Fuambai Ahmadu who was raised in America and went back to Sierra Leone to participate in FGM as an adult. In her article "Rites and Wrongs: An Insider/Outsider Reflects on Power and Excision" she uses many terms for the practice including Female Genital Cutting, Female Genital Mutilation and Circumcision. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.172.83.107 (talk) 18:01, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Johnuniq is quite right that there has been a recent “terminology war” over this issue, coinciding with recent attempts to outlaw various or all forms of Clitorodectomy. One characteristic of Misplaced Pages is that it has much lower inertia than many other Encyclopaedias. Often this is a strength (for example in the coverage of new developments in rapidly evolving fields) but when an issue becomes very politically charged (as the issue of female circumcision has recently become) it can be a weakness. I have taken Johnuniq’s advise and sought reliable sources from before the recent attempts to outlaw female circumcision (I would encourage others to do the same). They bear out my point that this is a relatively recent linguistic change (which may indeed be driven, in part, by Misplaced Pages) undoubtedly motivated by a desire to delegitimise or ban all forms of female circumcision.

I am sure that Johnuniq would agree that in the case of matters such as this (articles about ancient matters which have recently become politically charged) “properly sourced” information is information which is sourced from before any recent controversy.

I have added a note about the recent terminological history but the title of the article should also be changed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.82.186.14 (talk) 10:11, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

As a side point: Doubtless some do wish to “promote” female circumcision, others simply wish to see the end of the ban leaving the decision up to parents, still others wish to see a relaxation of the ban to allow part1a female circumcision (while not wishing to promote it or carry it out on their own children), others wish to see a more mild relaxation allowing only the ritualistic drawing or blood and others are perfectly happy with the law but simply wish to see an honest use of language so that its meaning is not obscured by political developments. I am certainly not in the fist of those five groups. I am, and would like to think we would all be, in the last of them. Whether I am in any/all of the other three groups would require a little more thought. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.82.186.14 (talk) 10:31, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from , 24 November 2011

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

I am requesting a change to the title of this page as it is offensive and it is not a cultural relative term. Using the term " MUTILATION" is not culturally sensitive and invokes a biased opinion of this cultural act. The more non judgemental term to use to title this page would be FEMALE GENITAL MODIFICATION. This change is a culturally relevant request from an anthropological standpoint, particularily because wikipedia is supposed to be giving information, not choosing sides. I am an Indigenous Studies Student whom is majoring in Anthropology and Minoring in Indigenous Studies, and our class of 32 students, after doing research on this subject had a discussion and we believe that this is something that needs to be changed to a more inclusive terminology on your web site.

Thank you, From the entire Anthropology of Women class at Camosun College, The Ladies of Somalia, And myself, Margeory G

Indigenous Studies Student (talk) 04:09, 24 November 2011 (UTC) Margeory Graham

Not done: The term female genital mutilation is defined by the WHO, and that definition is backed up by a reliable source. Unless you can demonstrate that another term is in more common usage, the article will not be moved. —C.Fred (talk) 04:20, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

I'd just like to point out that you don't need to make an edit request to move a page. The correct procedure is a requested move. However, I would not advise opening another requested move proposal at this stage, since as you can see in the above section, the previous move only closed about a fortnight ago, regrettably with strong support for the current title. I'd suggest waiting six months or so to see if consensus has changed. Jakew (talk) 09:14, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

The second part of what Jakew has said here is quite misleading, renaming this (or any) article's title is not as simple as waiting six months (or for any period of time) to see if enough people simply agree with the point of view you offer in the future. Misplaced Pages has specific guidelines and policies which must be followed to choose an article title's name. Female Genital Modification would never be taken under serious consideration because it is not ubiquitous enough in its usage to merit consideration. To address what was said specifically, cultural relativity, sensitivity, relevancy, and inclusiveness are not criteria for choosing content on Misplaced Pages. This encyclopedia bases its content off of what is available in English language, reliable sources. It is meant to reflect what is offered in those sources and those sources alone. I say this not to attack your perspective, but to outline what at a glance might seem to be an un-realized bias in Misplaced Pages on our part. The point is that the cultural bias is inherent in the process of including content in the Encylopedia, and the bias is with the sources not with Misplaced Pages itself. Vietminh (talk) 07:36, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Political lobbying to change language is still political lobbying even if it is carried out by the world health organisation or an Inter-African Committee. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.145.22.132 (talk) 16:54, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Female genital cutting would be a good compromise position until consensus can be reached. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.145.22.132 (talk) 16:57, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Ethnocentric Views

Cindy Little wrote, most literature describes FGM or circumcision as “violent sexual mutilation of females and contends that the ritual has been sustained in male dominated countries in order to suppress women’s sexuality. In contrast to that belief, the practice is almost always controlled, preformed and strongly upheld by women”. She goes on to say it is usually African women who insist on having their daughters circumcised and men usually know very little about it. Most societies that practice FGM have a high regard for virginity. “A woman who protects her virginity becomes highly admired by an entire community.” So when mothers circumcise their daughters they are protecting their daughter’s virginity and both of their reputations. Little goes on to say that the participating cultures do not see FGM as a human rights violation they see it as a cultural right (2003). As a student of Anthropology from North American culture I do not feel it is our place to judge another culture for practices that we do not understand or feel are right. I believe there are practices within our culture one could argue are unnecessary and harmful (even if just for a moment) that we do to babies or children without their consent, male circumcision and ear piercings on babies, both for aesthetic purposes, are just a couple examples. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.172.83.107 (talk • contribs) 03:56, 5 April 2012

Fine, but per WP:TALK this page should not be used for people to exchange views on the topic. Please restrict comments to policy based suggestions for improving the article. Johnuniq (talk) 06:49, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Biased Writing

This article is written from a POV which is clearly Western and against the practice of the female circumcision. The very title of the page- Female genital mutilation- is offensive to people who practice female circumcision. If male circumcision is not under the male genital mutilation title, female circumcision should not be under the female genital mutilation title. You fail to include health benefits of female circumcision such as a lowered risk of HIV, cosmetic benefits, and a lowered risk of certain cancers (like vulvar cancer). Female circumcision is performed by trained doctors in hospitals in many countries, such as Egypt. As for ritual circumcisers, they are trained in their tradition of circumcision practices and are no different than a Jewish mohel. Many women want to be circumcised, just as many men want to be. Generally, men and women want to be circumcised for the same reasons: health benefits, hygiene, culture, religious, tradition, a reduction in STDs, and cosmetic benefits. The article offends cultures which practice female circumcision as it promotes female circumcision in a negative light. (MurasakiSunshine (talk) 02:20, 25 April 2012 (UTC))

No. The article is correctly based on reliable sources. Johnuniq (talk) 04:16, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

It is offensively worded and it is filled with biased writing. You are calling people who circumicise women mutilators. (MurasakiSunshine (talk) 05:19, 25 April 2012 (UTC))

I don't think you understand. Misplaced Pages is not calling anyone anything. The article is based on reliable sources and all the information comes from sources. Bunnies! Leave a message 05:21, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Comparisons between FGC and male circumcision are unconstructive, but the article does have a few NPOV issues, including the title. These have been the subject of numerous — and lengthy — discussions (and were mentioned in the article's featured article candidate review). Unfortunately, consensus has thus far strongly rejected any attempts to change the title, and it is too soon to see whether consensus has changed. Perhaps in 6 months. Jakew (talk) 10:18, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Not to be harsh, Jakew, but telling people that consensus might change in 6 months isn't a great idea. Consensus is based on our sources. We'll only change the title if the sources we use happen to start calling it something else that is widely accepted. It's not a matter of point of view, it's all down to the sources and the naming guidelines. Bunnies! Leave a message 10:27, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

I disagree, OohBunnies. There are several interpretations of applicable policies; the viewpoint that we must call it by the most commonly-used name, regardless of neutrality, is one of those interpretations, and one that currently enjoys consensus. However, it isn't the only interpretation, and there's no way to predict which interpretation will be favoured in the future. A similar naming dispute, in which there is also a conflict between commonness and neutrality, is currently open to the community at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Abortion article titles; I wouldn't be surprised if the outcome of that discussion led to a clarification of policy in such cases. Jakew (talk) 11:36, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

While it is true that there is no way we can predict what consensus will be in the future I agree with OohBunnies that it is not a good idea to tell people consensus might change "in 6 months". Consensus may change, but by attaching a time frame to it the implication is we should re-open the debate in 6 months time. The last thing needed here is another fruitless RfC or RM that will re-affirm what two RM's and an RfC have already. Each of these took place months apart, I think it is clear that the consensus that was established is at minimum not a passing one that occurred at once place and time. Also, I don't think it is good to suggest a parity when saying "there are several interpretations", there are and always will be, but the consensus for the current interpretation was overwhelming in the last RfC and RM, and the other interpretations were overwhelmingly rejected. There will always be people who stumble upon this page, are angered by the title or terminology one way or another, and come on the talk page to voice their grievances (this happens approximately once a month), but that should be taken at face value and not seen as an impetus. Vietminh (talk) 18:02, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

This article does not address health benefits of female circumcision, meaning it is incomplete or biased. (MurasakiSunshine (talk) 00:22, 26 April 2012 (UTC))

Per WP:MEDRS, any medically-related statements must be based on reliable secondary sources (such as literature reviews). These sources are very consistent in stating that FGC is harmful, not beneficial, though in fairness some (eg., Carla Obermeyer) do question whether the harms have been overstated. Jakew (talk) 08:02, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Insufficient support

Current Note : Toubia, Nahid (1994). "Female Circumcision as a Public Health Issue". New England Journal of Medicine 331 (11): 712–6. doi:10.1056/NEJM199409153311106. PMID 8058079 does not support the claim that "individual Muslims, Christians, and Jews practise FGM". The scientific article is titled "Female Circumcision as a Public Health Issue" and is published in "New England Journal of Medicine". As such, the subject matter is not concerned with the anthropology of FGM but with medicinal aspects of FGM. That is, the reference cannot be considered a primary source of the said information. Furthermore, the paper neither provides own evidence in support of the statement (e.g. a survey), neither does it provide a reference to a source that supports the statement.

Another reference must be provided, or the statement must be removed for its lack of evidence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SeanPi (talk • contribs) 13:49, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Little, Cindy (2003). "FEMALE GENITAL CIRCUMCISION: MEDICAL AND CULTURAL CONSIDERATIONS". Journal Of Cultural Diversity. 10 (1): 30–34.

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