Talk:Cuba/Archive 6 - Misplaced Pages

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Peer Review

Are we ready for a 1st round peer review yet? --Scott Grayban 07:25, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Who are these "peers"? Some further comments:

I have now read the Human Rights section, and it is as bad as the History section was. I give notice that I will rewrite it when I have looked up some sources.
The culture and religion sections are still very bad.
I suspect the rest of the article also needs rewriting, though I am not an expert on health, education etc in Cuba. The whole article seems to have been originally written by semi-literate and very naive admirers of the Castro dictatorship, and probably it all now needs to be replaced. Adam 08:49, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

What problems do you have with the religion section, Adam? --Zleitzen 10:39, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

A Peer Review is when the article is reviewed by top wikipedian editors that read and comment on what still needs to be changed to avoid POV and other common mistakes like layout and presentation of the article. BTW what happen to the Coat of Arms area? --Scott Grayban 08:59, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

More info about Peer Reviews is at Misplaced Pages:Peer_review --Scott Grayban 09:11, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I would welcome a peer review. BruceHallman 15:28, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

User Bletch

Bletch, you have reinserted the statement "Cuba is the only state in the western hemisphere which is not a democracy" in the first paragraph (again). This comes after a week of edit wars, blocks and bans over this issue. Please review talk page history and cite a source for this. For guidance I provided the encarta description of Cuban democracy, I'll repeat it here;

The revolution professed centralized democracy, meaning that popular participation occurs within designated mass organizations established and controlled by the state. The Communist leadership believes that traditional democracies in Latin America often become military dictatorships or become subject to government corruption, which renders their democratic institutions meaningless. In theory, the Cuban government avoids dictatorship and corruption by creating a strong, centralized political structure that makes every effort to incorporate the opinions of the people when making policy decisions. This, to their way of thinking, qualifies Cuba as a democracy and not a totalitarian government. However, Castro makes all major decisions, without popular referendums. Encarta MSN.[http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761569844_7/Cuba.html#s124--Zleitzen 12:16, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually I have seen this sourced on military and government sites. When I run across it agin I'll post the link for it but I believe Bletch is correct in a sense. The source I read was "Its the only country in the North America that is a Communist State" --Scott Grayban 12:25, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Democracy is very broad term that is not limited to particular political systems. Encarta recognise this and write accordingly, keeping to encylopedic standards. The communsist state argument was hammered out at length above. And personally I believe there is a problem of bias in relying on US military and government sources on these matters. Rather like relying on Fidel Castro's opinions of the US to inform the United States article. --Zleitzen 12:39, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

One man's struggle is another man's war. The wording between Communist and Socialist will never be deceided here. For instance, in China they don't call themselves socialists, they clearly call themselves Communist with overtones of a People's Republic to make it sound better but in all there documentation they refer to communist. Fidel has a close relationship with China and more then once Fidel has aligned to communist ways. Socialist is also broad because it was used in Nazi Germany as well. So there must be a consensus that neither fit as well then. So what do we call Cuba? --Scott Grayban 12:55, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

And prior to the former USSR falling he aligned with them to. So either Cuba is a Communist State or not. Socialist is just another word to make it sound better. --Scott Grayban 12:59, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

How about we just say Cuba is a Socialist or Communist State depending on the person's view? Something like that is not a POV but a fact. --Scott Grayban 13:02, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

It's a tricky business, Scott. But terms such as democracy, communist state and socialist cannot be used in "short hand" in an encyclopedia. Each term has to be used in the proper form. This is why other encyclopedias use particular language and terminology (see encarta above or encyclopedia britannica entries on Cuba etc). Bletch's statement contradicts that method. Although I may believe in passing that "Cuba is the only state in the western hemisphere which is not a democracy", I am creating a short hand for the term that does not correspond with the true definition. Btw, I thought there was some consensus that the first paragraph wouldn't contain such political detail in any case? --Zleitzen 13:21, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Another conflict arises from providing alternative POV's on this. ie. Cuba is a Socialist or Communist State depending on the person's view. By that rationale an article on (say) Ireland could carry the (albeit unlikely) statement "Ireland is a democratic or theocratic depending on the person's view". That is a poor example, but do you see the problems here? Who has this different view? --Zleitzen 13:31, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Oh I see the problem.

Is Cuba a Socialist or Comunist State
If its either one above then then Bletch is correct when it comes to Political Geography of Cuba.

--Scott Grayban 13:37, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Cuba is a Socialist Republic (as in UK is a constitutional monarchy), in which the Communist Party of Cuba is the sole legal political party. That I believe is the correct entry and corresponds with the terminology of other encyclopedias etc. Although the Bletch edit I query here was "Cuba is the only state in the western hemisphere which is not a democracy". --Zleitzen 13:44, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Adam, Why don't you stop the reverting for a bit and talk here and lets hammer out the issue of "Cuba is the only state in the western hemisphere which is not a democracy." and be done with it now. Or does the need of another block in order before we can get this worked out in the talk? --Scott Grayban 13:46, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

"Cuba is a Socialist Republic , in which the Communist Party of Cuba is the sole legal political party." isn't correct either. The Communist Party of Cuba is not the sole political party. They do allow other's to participate. However The Communist Party of Cuba does hold the majority of the political seats which does make them the ruling party. --Scott Grayban 13:50, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually it is the sole legal political party. Some self-proclaimed political parties claim to operate, but they are not recognized by the constitution. Those who run for office, however, do not have to be a member of any political party. On another note, this statement "Cuba is the only state in the western hemisphere which is not a democracy.", is an obvious POV and not a fact so it should be permanently removed. The rest of the article is political enough. Comandante 13:55, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

You mean legal as in the only one allowed to get voted seats? That's incorrect. Source your claim for that. If you mean legal as in the only one that can vote and the other political parties are just there to amuse everyone that's true. Cuba only tollerates the other political parties because the International Community demands that. Now will Cuba ever allow these other political parties to gain any significant role in the government? Never. That would undermine there Comunist goals. --Scott Grayban 14:09, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

The communist party is the only legal political party in cuba, according to the Cuban constitution and all other sources including US Government. --Zleitzen 14:16, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

And you cite a US Gov. article. You said that you wouldn't trust such information. Site another place. --Scott Grayban 14:19, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Encyclopedia Britannica alongside the above mentioned legally binding Cuban Constitution --Zleitzen 14:30, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

You can play word games with the term "democracy", but in the end if you have a party with a monopoly on political activity and other parties or forms of opposition cannot play a serious role, then the country in question is not a democracy. --Bletch 14:45, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

It would be much easier if we could circumvent the issue, and accept your specific definition of democracy. Then your statement would stand without issue. However, as an encyclopaedia we need to acknowledge that the democracy has no such specific definitions. These are not word games, they are the inevitable part of the process of compiling an accurate encyclopaedia. I'm fairly confident that a peer review from experienced encyclopaedia writers would come to the same conclusions. (Judging from other encyclopaedias this would seem to be the case). It's a nuisance but theres not much we can do about it if we're serious here.--Zleitzen 15:04, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Can't use Encyclopedia Britannica as a source because the user is required to buy a subscription to see the entire article. That is biased. It's small section about it but you can't read the whole thing. I vote that we use the term "Cuba is a Socialist Republic , where other political parties are allowed to participate but the Communist Party of Cuba holds the majority of seat's and vote's." That certainly encompasses everyone's idea's into one sentence and its NOT POV. --Scott Grayban 14:57, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Thats a good start, but "holds" is too ambiguous; one might suspect that the "hold" is temporary, as in the United States. In that sense, the Republican Party "holds" majorities in the US House, Senate and Executive Branch. Any ideas for a better term? --Bletch 15:10, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

How about "Cuba is a Socialist Republic , where other political parties are allowed to participate but the Communist Party of Cuba has the majority of seat's and vote's." You can't get any better then this without going back to the revert war again. --Scott Grayban 16:14, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but that still has the same ambiguity problems; if anything substituting "holds" with "has" is more ambiguous. --Bletch 18:15, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Guess there will not be a compromise and the real fact of the political system will never be acommplished then. I'll just step out and go back to pratrolling this article for revert wars until there is no one left to work on it. "holds" or "has" is not ambiguous but since you seem to think it so be it. I'll enjoy the revert warring though. --Scott Grayban 18:24, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I didn't realise you were asking for a source to go within the article itself. Why not use the Cuban Constitution and keep the earlier phrase?--Zleitzen 15:04, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Well since we seem to stuck on needing sources we might as well have something we can read without the need to spend money for it. And the article sourced should be in its entire and not a piece of it. --Scott Grayban 16:14, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

No problem, Scott. Regardless, the Cuban constitution is the best possible source for this legal matter, and it's linked within the article. (Or it was the last time I looked!)--Zleitzen 16:20, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

As much as I would like to we all know that there constitution is certainly biased and does not reflect what the Internation Community say's. If we used all the information about Cuba strickly from the Cuban Government we all know that this article will be whitewashed to no end and all our work to provide a great article becomes null. I would like a vote on my last revision to my suggestion above. It is the most accurrate statement we are going to get without a whitewas statement. --Scott Grayban 16:32, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Scott, I am curious about the source of the "Can't use Encyclopedia Britannica as a source because the user is required to buy a subscription to see the entire article." rule. Commonly that information is available for free in public libraries who share there subscription of the online Encyclopedia Britanica to the public for free. Indeed, many people can only afford to access Misplaced Pages from public libraries (because they cannot afford computers and cannot afford to pay for a dedicated personal internet connection). Or, when I cannot afford to pay the subscription fee for a print magazine (or buy a book), I go to the public library to read their copy for free. BruceHallman 15:43, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

The next revert will get this article protected

Ok now I am getting tired of this. The next revert done without talking on the talk page and getting this worked out will not only find themselves blocked for a long time. There will be no more reverts by anyone unless there is vandalism period. Everyone is violating the WP:3RR here. Comandante is looking for such a ban. --Scott Grayban 14:03, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I just stated my reason for deleting that POV statement and now your threatening to ban me. That's typical. I wonder why you haven't threatened to ban Bletch who keeps on sneaking his bias into the article? Comandante 14:11, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Scott discussed a ban concerning Adam's revert above, Commandante. I see no bias here. --Zleitzen 14:15, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I have told him to stop as well. I'll do it again too Bletch if you revert or change this article in any manner other then to remove vandalism I'll have you blocked from here. This WP:3RR blantant violation will stop one way or another. --Scott Grayban 14:17, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Bletch just reverted the article. Comandante 14:23, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

You need to accept that the days of communist rule over this article are over. Adam 14:25, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

You need to accept that Cuba is a sovereign, Socialist state, and that at the end of the day, there's absolutely nothing you can do about it. Comandante 14:29, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

There has never been any contraversy regarding Cuba being "sovereign" and "socialist"; the question was whether it is a democracy or not. --Bletch 14:39, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

So are you guys going to do anything about Bletch? Or are you going to sit around and hope that i revert him so you can block me as well? Comandante 14:31, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

So uncalled for Adam. It has nothing to do with anyone being a communist here. Its called compromise and if you, Bletch and Comandante can't act civil leave. I can't get simplier then that. --Scott Grayban 14:36, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Last 3RR warning

I just issued the last WP:3RR warning for Adam, Comandante, and Bletch. And i'll post it here as well so that everyone can see it and can't claim I'm being biased here.

Since you are an active participant in this

Your recent editing history shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war; read about how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.

Being involved in an edit war can result in you being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you do not violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.

Bletch:"...the question was whether it is a democracy or not..."

In the section above Bletch wrote: "the question was whether it is a democracy or not." Yes indeed, and repeatedly I have been trying to engage you, Bletch, in a discussion of just this question, though I get a clear impression that you evade our efforts to engage in a discussion of this question. Re-read the message archives and you will see many questions directed to you about this issue which you did not answer. Restating a couple key questions: Please cite a reference that democracy is required to have parties, and if yes, how many parties? In other words, how correct is your assertion that a one party democracy not a democracy? You have not demonstrated that your assertion is not original research. Also, I grant that many people share your POV that democracy in Cuba is very disfunctional. Still, why is a bad democracy not a type of democracy? You *repeatedly* revert your POV sentence that Cuba is not a democracy, and your POV to be accurate perhaps should say that Cuba has a bad democracy. BruceHallman 15:39, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

There has never been a question of parties per se; its the question of tolerating political opposition. I believed that I made this clear many times in the archives. --Bletch 15:44, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

In other words, how correct is your assertion that a one party democracy not a democracy? BruceHallman, have you been paying much attention to the news since the fall of the Berlin Wall more than 15 years ago? No one who argues that single-party Communist regimes are "people's democracies" has to be taken seriously these days. While Western political scientists have always endlessly disputed the appropriate meaning and definition of democracy, all political scientists agree that contemporary democracies include, at a minimum, the following features: fully contested multiparty elections with full suffrage and the absence of major fraud, combined with some guarantees of political competition, including freedom of speech, assembly, and association. Cuba is not a democracy by any stretch of the imagination as the term is understood in the contemporary English-speaking world. 172 | Talk 15:55, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

In which case Encarta, Encyclopedia Britannica etc are incorrect in their understanding of the term "democracy" and you are correct.--Zleitzen 16:03, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Please avoid obscurantism. The discussion in an encyclopedia's entry on "democracy" is going to be extremely broad because the term has been understood in vastly different ways over time dating back to the ancient Greeks. When we are talking about whether or not a present-day country is a democracy, it is clear that we are applying the contemporary understanding of the term, not (say) Thucydides' or Pericles'. In the contemporary English-speaking world, when describing a country as a "democracy," it is clear that we mean liberal democracy. 172 | Talk 16:30, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

As stated above, we can't use Encyclopedia Britannica as a source since you need to buy a subscription in order to read articles so lets stop referencing them because its a biased statement. --Scott Grayban 16:18, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Scott, I can read Encyclopedia Britannica, including both the paper and the online version, for free in my local public library. BruceHallman 20:03, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Zleitzen's reference to Britannica is irrelvant, but for another reason. We are not limited to citing free online material. Books and websites that are not free access have always been cited on Misplaced Pages. If that bothers you, get in touch with the Wikimedia Foundation, as the Foundation has the authority to make major changes in the way things are done on Misplaced Pages, not us individual editors. 172 | Talk 16:30, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm using other encyclopaedias as examples of method within a talk page, not as sources for the article, Scott.--Zleitzen 16:23, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Its a comparison. Same thing. If everyone can not read the same thing its useless because your inviting a war over words because they can't read it. Let's just aviod any source or any other site that requires that to keep this within the scope of verifiable by anyone --Scott Grayban 16:26, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I can't read the whole thing either. I'm just giving examples of how encyclopedic standards are applied. --Zleitzen 16:29, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Zleitzen and Sgrayban, you guys can drop the argument about Britannica. Zleitzen is free to cite it because Misplaced Pages editors have always been free to cite books and non-free access websites. At the same time, Zleitzen's citation of Britannica is irrelvant for reasons I stated above. 172 | Talk 16:33, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Ummm, 172 Right now I'm trying to get a vote on something different here and would like to get just one thing agreed on so we can move on. 3 disputes right now and all I'm looking for is one to get resolved and we are close to it. --Scott Grayban 16:38, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Poll or no poll, the discussion under this heading pertains to BruceHallman's claim that Cuba can be considered a democracy. This matter is settled: Cuba is not a democracy. All political scientists agree that contemporary democracies include, at a minimum, the following features: fully contested multiparty elections with full suffrage and the absence of major fraud, combined with some guarantees of political competition, including freedom of speech, assembly, and association. 172 | Talk 16:55, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

172, please, "...all political scientists agree..."? Could you provide a verifiable credible citation to substantiate that statement, it seems wildly incredible. And, the matter is not settled. Would you address my point that even a bad democracy is at least a type of democracy? BruceHallman 19:55, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Since you don't appear to know much about how contemporary Western social scientists understand democracy, I recommend reading David Collier and Steven Levitsky, "Democracy with Adjectives" , which offers a broad overview by two of the leading scholars on democracy that I often assign undergrads. Note Collier and Levitsky's discussion of a "procedural minimum" for democracy. 172 | Talk 07:45, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, that is an interesting paper. Regarding the quality of 'competitive elections' in their hypothesis: You cannot ignore local level elections. Are you arguing that Cuba has no 'competitive elections' anywhere anytime, even at the lower level elections, such as local unions, towns, precincts? Probably you are not. Once again, I see that framing this article as a pro-Castro versus anti-Castro debate skews our view. This article should be about Cuba. By the way, I do support including a NPOV section in the article the Cuban electoral system. I just am not convinced that 'cuba is not a democracy' is a credibly sourced statement, and the Collier/Levitsky paper did not convince me otherwise. BruceHallman 16:10, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

In the English-speaking world "democracy" is understood to mean liberal democracy. If you want to live in a society where a single-party communist regime is described as a democracy in written publications, go to Cuba. Or better yet go to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, another democracy like Cuba. I am done discussing this matter with you. I refer to Adam Carr's list. 172 | Talk 16:32, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Adam Carr's list appears to be original research. I take it that when you write "I am done discussing this matter..." considering that the matter that we are discussing is a request for citation, that you are abandoning your attempt to provide a citation. BruceHallman 17:07, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Adam's Human Rights section rewrite

Thanks for your editing efforts I can see that you spent a lot of time and thought which I appreciate. Though regretfully, what you wrote includes too much point of view and too little citation and too much original research. So, I must add a neutrality dispute box to the section. Perhaps it would make sense to move it to a sandbox to hash out the differences? I am not arguing that the previous Human Rights section is better or should be reverted as it had many problems too.

There is so much in your section that quickly listing all the specifics of my dispute is not possible. However, starting with the first sentence, you wrote "...the rights of the individual..." as if we all agree what the rights of the individual should be. In reality your concept is ethnocentric, similar to the systemic bias problem that pervades Misplaced Pages. In the second sentence you write of "the states political aims" as if there is no validity to the concept of ".socialist state of workers, organized with all and for the good of all... " Again, ethnocentric, you are bringing a Free Market capitalistic value belief system towards the forming the basis of your condemnation of a social system that deliberately eschews capitalism.

Can we at least agree that the context of their human rights falls within the context of a socialist society, and that applying capitalistic values on that system is a logical falacy? BruceHallman 16:12, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Works for me --Scott Grayban 16:34, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

...you are bringing a Free Market capitalistic value belief system towards the forming the basis of your condemnation of a social system that deliberately eschews capitalism. BruceHallman, you're way off. Virtually the entire section can be referenced by citing the Cuban constitution itself. Cuba is a one-party state in which the state is constitutionally subordinate to the Communist Party, and the government restricts freedom of speech, association, assembly, press, and movement outside the control of the party. Adam Carr's section elaborates on this fact in a straightforward and factual manner. 172 | Talk 16:47, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

BruceHallman, I'm afraid that I do not comprehend your objections. I've read that section over several times and fail to recognize anything that can be remotely associated with "free market capitalism" or "capitalistic values". --Bletch 18:24, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

172, sorry, you are out of line to remove the neutrality dispute tag without first resolving the neutrality dispute. Your simple denials of my points of dispute does not solve the dispute. Your statement "Cuba is a one-party state" (so what?) "in which the state is constitutionally subordiante to the Communist Party" (not true, and even if true, so what?) the government restricts freedom of speech etc.... ( which, according to the opposing POV, are limited restrictions, sensible, legal and constitutional. The article doesn't respect or represent the opposing point of view in this regard. It only represents the anti-Castro and capitalisitic POV.) BruceHallman 19:51, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Bletch, I am not surprised that you cannot see the neutrality problems, no offense intended, but you show a pattern of not being able to see or respect opposing points of view. BruceHallman 19:51, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

BruceHallman, just so I can understand where you are coming from, are you arguing that limitations on freedom of speech, expression, assembly are "capitalistic values"? I'm only asking so I can further understand what exactly your POV is and to resolve my confusion; please correct me if I am wrong in this case. --Bletch 20:53, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps I can make my point about freedom of speech through a comparison: Both the USA and Cuba have constitutional rights to freedom of speech. In Cuba their Constitution requires that the socialist state of the people own the newspapers and the broadcast media, collectively, for the socialist purpose and the regulation is controlled by Communist Party values and interests. In the USA, the capitalist system effectively requires that only millionaire and billionaire corporations can own the newspapers and broadcast media, and the regulation is effectively controlled by corporate values and interests. From the perspective of the individual person, Joe Blow so to speak, both these states have 'freedom of speech' and relative to newspapers and broadcasting at least, neither of these states have 'freedom of speech' for Joe Blow. BruceHallman 00:46, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

In the USA, the capitalist system effectively requires that only millionaire and billionaire corporations can own the newspapers and broadcast media, and the regulation is effectively controlled by corporate values and interests. BruceHallman, if you continue to use this talk page as a soap box for your left-wing opinions without engaging in the serious content considerations of the article, I will start an RfC looking into your conduct. You have presented no valid reason for keeping up the neutrality dispute tag. I will remove it. 172 | Talk 07:37, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Bruce, I really appreciate that you've made this opinion of yours clear. Why is it that you did not say that from the very beginning? Your arguments would have been much more clear if you had. Look, say what you want about the USA (and I am no fan of George W. Bush, Fox News and billionaire CEOs), but the USA - for all of its faults - is way way ahead of Cuba with regards to freedom of speech. Every week, I regularly see people waving signs calling for Bush's impeachment, end to the war and the usual stuff. In Havana, do you see signs calling for Fidel's "resignation"? What would be the consequences if one engaged in this behavior? Trying to imply equivalence in this regard is like saying that the Sahara and the Sun are equivalently hot.

I cannot help but wonder if being clear was not your goal, and this is some elaborate rhetorical game for you. And you are doing your best to (with the exception of the Cuban constitution) avoid explicit concrete statements and instead are keeping your statements as vague and all encompassing as possible which you are using (along with accusations regarding policy compliance) as rhetorical weapons. --Bletch 14:00, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Bletch, Misplaced Pages policy compliance is critical if we ever hope to create an encyclopedia article. Also, my POV is not the subject here, creating a NPOV Cuba article is the subject. BruceHallman 17:29, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

User:172, I am not using this talk page as 'a soap box for my left wing opinions',. My paragraph, 00:46, 16 April 2006 (UTC), which you criticised was a direct response to Bletch's question that I explain myself. Answering (and not ignoring) direct questions is a form of repect. To the contrary, I generally avoid the grandstanding of my opinions just because this talk page is about the article, and not a soap box for our POV's. Regardless, the Human Rights section suffers from a cultural political bias. One way to solve that problem, perhaps would be to rewrite it to remove the overt and implied value judgements, to instead be based upon human rights reports of some neutral international organizations, such as perhaps Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch. BruceHallman 17:29, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I think one of the problems here is the tendency to view Cuban internal issues through a lens framed by particular cultural standards. Being from the UK, I may have a different perspective on the application of the media and freedom of speech. For example, if one was to apply such standards to the British broadcasting media then would that be worth mentioning in the UK article? Something along the lines of "The British government restricts freedom of speech" etc, citing the many cases concerning the relationship between the BBC and the British Government. Again, there is not one model of media freedom of speech as there is not one model of democracy. This is an international encyclopedia, there should be no parochial standards. --Zleitzen 14:38, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

To clarify, the British media does not comply with US models of constitutional freedom of speech. Likewise, British constitutional monarchy does not comply with many models of democracy. Yet it would be considered misleading to state that "the UK is not a democracy, and has restrictions on freedoms of speech" because they don't adhere to these models. --Zleitzen 15:48, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

"...the tendency to view Cuban internal issues through a lens framed by particular cultural standards." That sums up my criticism of the neutrality problem with the Human Rights section perfectly. BruceHallman 17:29, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Zleitzen, I do not think that anyone here has attempted to apply a strict application of US constitutional standards. For what it is worth, the person that rewrote the paragraph in question is Australian. --Bletch 00:41, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Vote requested

Ok, I would like a vote posted in this section and please only sign with a support or oppose. No need for anything else to be posted.

The vote is for the use of "Cuba is a Socialist Republic , where other political parties are allowed to participate but the Communist Party of Cuba has the majority of seat's and vote's." for the article.

Support

Support --Scott Grayban 16:42, 15 April 2006 (UTC) Support BruceHallman 20:16, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Oppose

I am going to ignore this poll. I encourage other users to ignore it as well. Adam Carr has already expended enough energy settling this matter. This matter no longer needs to be discussed. 172 | Talk 16:49, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Sgrayban, do not remove my comment again, as you did here. Removal of talk page comments is considered vandalism. Talk page straw polls are nonbinding. Users have the prerogative to respond in any civil manner, including explaining why the vote may be irrelevant. 172 | Talk 17:00, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

mediation cabal

Hello all -- I am here as part of the medcabal to help us come to a solution to part of the article conflict.

I am somewhat familiar with the kind of dispute that is going on. However, the talk page here is huge, and before joining in I wanted to check to see if people wanted me here. Please let me know what the consensus is, i.e., do you want a third party to come in and help out, or are discussions moving along well without me? If the former, what is the main locus of the dispute?

Sdedeo (tips) 20:15, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi Sdedeo, I think there is a small recent improvement in the dispute, though very small. My view of the main point of the dispute centers around the deeply entrenched emotions behind the anti-Castro and the pro-Cuba camps of the POV. I suggest that both parties accept the validity of the opposing POV and that we tolerate the inclusion of both of the POV's. Presently, there is a pattern of insisting on the inclusion of only one of the POV's, and the deletion of the opposing POV. We need to face the reality that the opposing POV is not going away or changing anyday soon and learn to tolerate and respect each other. BruceHallman 20:22, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Sdedeo for answering the call. I support BruceHallman's statement above. --Zleitzen 22:26, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

OK, thanks. Is there a particular point in the article where people are battling? Can you maybe provide a diff? In the end we will need to include all POVs, of course, following WP:NPOV (which also means that superminority POVs are given less weight and prominence.) Perhaps putting in some sources and in general sourcing POVs (e.g., "According to Amnesty International..." "According to the US State Department..." "According to the Cuban government...") will help resolve things? Sdedeo (tips) 20:24, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I am not able to speak for everyone. Like I tried to say, from my opinion, the other POV prefers to simply delete my POV rather than accomodating it. Unfortunately many of the items are binary, and both POV need to be accomodated with not too much chance of showing just a middle position. For instance one user persistently wants to write 'Cuba is not a democracy' even though they do have elections, though some believe they have bad elections. Or, another instance, I recently disputed the neutrality of the Human Rights section with a neutrality box, and one user simply denied that there was a neutrality problem and just instead deleted the neutrality box without an attempt to resolve my points of dispute. BruceHallman 20:47, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

In short, if people around here agreed to follow WP:NPOV, WP:NOR and WP:V I would not have asked for your help. But in truth, some people around here refuse to follow those Misplaced Pages policys. BruceHallman 20:51, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

In principle, I have zero problems with attributing assertions, whether they are held by 10%, 51% or 99% of the world at large. --Bletch 20:55, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate your statement Bletch, can you also state publicly that you agree and commit to follow all the Misplaced Pages:policies, including WP:NPOV, WP:NOR and WP:V? I don't recall you ever publicly stating your commitment to comply with Misplaced Pages policies. BruceHallman 21:14, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure we can find sources to discuss what to call Cuba's political system. Can you provide sources that state that Cuba is a democracy? And sources that dispute that? Sdedeo (tips) 20:56, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Certainly, the Cuban Constitution . Though it might not be proper for me to state the opposing point of view, but I see that they believe that because the Cuban elections are 'not fair' that therefore the Cuban electoral system is not a democracy. BruceHallman 21:14, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

OK, now we need some folks to weigh in with sources that declare Cuba is not a democracy. Sdedeo (tips) 21:47, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Argentina has a president and congress chosen at elections in which voters have a choice of candidates.
Bolivia has a president and congress chosen at elections in which voters have a choice of candidates.
Brazil has a president and congress chosen at elections in which voters have a choice of candidates.
Chile has a president and congress chosen at elections in which voters have a choice of candidates.
Colombia has a president and congress chosen at elections in which voters have a choice of candidates.
Costa Rica has a president and congress chosen at elections in which voters have a choice of candidates.
Cuba has a president and congress chosen at elections in which voters do not have a choice of candidates.
Dominican Republic has a president and congress chosen at elections in which voters have a choice of candidates.
Ecuador has a president and congress chosen at elections in which voters have a choice of candidates.
El Salvador has a president and congress chosen at elections in which voters have a choice of candidates.
Guatemala has a president and congress chosen at elections in which voters have a choice of candidates.
Haiti, even poor Haiti, for all its woes, now has a president and congress chosen at elections in which voters have a choice of candidates.
Honduras has a president and congress chosen at elections in which voters have a choice of candidates.
Mexico has a president and congress chosen at elections in which voters have a choice of candidates.
Nicaragua has a president and congress chosen at elections in which voters have a choice of candidates.
Panama has a president and congress chosen at elections in which voters have a choice of candidates.
Paraguay has a president and congress chosen at elections in which voters have a choice of candidates.
Peru has a president and congress chosen at elections in which voters have a choice of candidates.
Uruguay has a president and congress chosen at elections in which voters have a choice of candidates.
Venezuela has a president and congres chosen at elections in which voters had a choice of candidates, although it may not get another such opportunity if Chavez gets his way.

Can anyone spot the out-country-out? Adam 01:24, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe the above list answers the question posed, Adam. --Zleitzen 01:40, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, please answer the question Adam. BruceHallman 01:54, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Also, I notice you left the United States off the list, perhaps because the President is elected by the Electoral College, not by the people per se, nor do the people chose the candidate, but rather the political parties choose the candidate. And, more to the point, the two political parties write the rules of government so that *only* those two parties can have effective power. I am not saying the USA is not a democracy, but I am saying that the USA is a type of democracy, somewhat flawed, and Cuba is a type of democracy, somewhat flawed. BruceHallman 01:54, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

The mediator asked you to provide a citation, similarly, I have been asking the anti-Castro camp for a citation for more than a week. Your previous answers to my request are of interest. Adam Carr: "elementary facts do not require citations", User:172 "BruceHallman's dispute regarding this claim stated on talk is highly unsatisfactory", and other similar refusals to provide citation. BruceHallman 01:54, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

The above is a list of Latin American countries - the US and Canada, and the English-speaking Caribbean countries, are of course also democracies. I didn't say they are perfect democracies, and I agree that the US for one is far from a perfect democracy, as are several Latin American countries. But none of them are one-party states, none of them ban all opposition, nome of them have 100% state-controlled media. Adam 07:56, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Anyone realize this yet or not that there are only 3 words that is making this article POV ? Communist, Socialist, and Democracy. The same 3 words that comminusts and socialist use in there anti-american propaganda and the same 3 words used in American propaganda. Have we not learned anything at all? Adam is bent on labeling Cuba as a communist state just like the US. Government does. Cuba use the samething in order to provoke hate towards the US. See anything wrong at all ? No one will be happy until 1 is dead and the other wins. Samething for the opposite countries. --Scott Grayban 02:18, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

And I 100% oppose that Adam be allowed to edit on this article seeing that his post on my talk page absolutely proves his willing to do anything to hurt the colabrative NPOV working on this article. --Scott Grayban 02:22, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Scott, I can appreciate your observation about the three 'fighting words', and your hypothesis that this is a two-way fight. Though, in my opinion at least, just the anti-Castro camp is likely to use the words 'Communist' and 'not democratic' disparagingly. Also, they are generally loath to deem validity to Cuba by using the word 'socialist' or 'republic'. The pro-Cuba camp would be more likely to use the words 'imperialist' and 'capitalist' to disparage the USA and you will notice that these words are generally missing from the argument. The reason I say this is to point out that the disparaging words and the POV fighting is not a equal 'two way street' in this case. For instance, although I have been wrongly charactorized a 'communist' by some around here, indeed I am not a 'communist' and that I am favoring that point of view in part out of sense of duty to advocate to move to a neutral POV. If the tables were turned, my instinct would be to argue just the opposite POV, as I do indeed believe that the Wiki-duty is to advocate for neutrality. I also disagree that 'no one will be happy until 1 is dead'. I think that if the extreme elements leave (or learn to tolerate a neutrality policy), that there are many people around here that will step up and edit this article for neutrality, verifiability and NOR. BruceHallman 03:53, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

mediation cabal try again

I am going to repeat this question: we need some folks to weigh in with sources that declare Cuba is not a democracy.

Just to be explicit, we need external sources: e.g., Amnesty International? Some other human rights group? Another government?

We can't proceed without this.

Sdedeo (tips) 05:05, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Above links found with Google search using the term Cuba is not a democracy --Scott Grayban 20:22, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Hee hee. Great. Some of these are not the best (e.g., the NIH one!) but this is an excellent place to start. Adam, since you are the strongest opponent of the use of the word "democracy", do you have any links to add?

I see the structure of the para going something like "The Cuban constitution establishes, at least in principle, a state that has the main features of a democracy. However, numerous sources dispute the idea that Cuba is a democracy in any real sense. Source X says. Source Y says. Source Z says."

Sdedeo (tips) 20:25, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Columbia University is one of the leaders of research of Governments and even in there research I find..

On October 19, 1998 voting by secret ballot yielded 515 municipal delegates. The national assembly is also fully democratic but nominations are carried out by mass organizations and citizens committees. 1.6 million people were consulted by the citizens committee and 60,000 were put forward on the first electoral list. Cuba uses computers to allow review of the candidates and their records, including Fidel Castro himself who received 98% of the vote in the last election. Another sign of the popularity of socialism, despite the hardships imposed by imperialism, is that no more than 10 percent of the ballots were spoiled, a protest that anti-Communist groups urged.

That clearly shows a "democracy" even if its weak. --Scott Grayban 20:31, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

OK! Let's wait for Adam to weigh in here with his sources. It looks like we'll have a range of opinions: "Democracy... weak democracy... really very weak democracy... not in any sense a democracy", which we can then source to various groups and governments. Sdedeo (tips) 20:33, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Add to your list of range of POV's that of Reverend Lucius Walker, President of Pasters for Peace who is quoted as saying of Cuban elections as being "...the most democratic in the world.". I cannot say that I agree with his POV, but he is a well known and recognized community leader in the USA who is an authority on Cuba. BruceHallman 23:56, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I've found this European Union report from the net which I believe solves many of the wording issues on this article, and also carries a brief description of Cuba's electoral system, history and human rights etc. To my mind, the tone of this report should be the direction this article should be taking (alongside the other encyclopedia articles I have been quoting as examples on these pages). I recommend that all editors of this article examine it's contents. --Zleitzen 00:44, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Good article. Very first statement there "Cuba has a one-party political system where the Communist Party of Cuba holds the monopoly of political power." is exactly what I have said in the past. However, the article does seem to a bit overzealous on personal POV's and not a general consenses. Even though they label Fidel as head of everything they leave out the current political actions where in a study from Columbia clearly shows a "democracy" even if its a very weak one. You can't argue that just because Fidel is head of everything its not a "democracy" nore is a one party country as others want to suggest. If that was the case there would "zero" other candidates and certainly not "voting by secret ballot" because that would certainly undermine the statement of a sole one party socialist state. --Scott Grayban 01:11, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks very much both Bruce and Zleitzen -- I suggest we wait for Adam to weigh in now. Sdedeo (tips) 00:56, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

The EU document seems to me to be an accurate description of the Cuban political system. Adam 01:19, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Adam and I agree. It also supports the statement in the opening paragraph of this article "Cuba is a socialist republic, in which the Communist Party of Cuba is the sole legal political party". So I hope everyones OK with that one? --Zleitzen 01:37, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

That statement is not in dispute. The statement in dispute is the statement that Cuba is the only country in the Western Hemisphere which is not a democracy. The EU document makes it clear on my reading that Cuba cannot be called a democracy, because it is a one-party state in which no serious opposition to the regime is permitted. Are BruceHallman and Scott Grayban going to accept that proposition? If yes, then the dispute is over. If not, then we have not progressed. Adam 01:49, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

No problem. As for the second wording issue "Cuba is the only country in the Western Hemisphere which is not a democracy", I think the article still requires a citation for progression. --Zleitzen 01:58, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

So we are going to discount the study by Columbia and this document which shows that there is a weak democracy? How sad. Shows a very a narrow mind about other articles definition and clear proof that there is the beginnings of a democracy. I think some people are just in denial of this. It would ruin there one track thought that Cuba is a bad country and must discredited at all cost. --Scott Grayban 02:06, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I am absolutely "in denial" that Cuba is a democracy of any description. The basic prerequisites for democracy are (a) freedom of political organisation and (b) freedom of expression. Cuba has neither of these, and the Castro regime is making no moves to allow them to exist. Cuba is a dictatorship, plain and simple. The fact that the usual gaggle of "Pasters for Peace" and similar gullible idiots choose to deny this does not alter the fact. I could quote you reams of similar rubbish uttered by similar people about Hitler, Stalin, Franco, Mao and even Pol Pot. Adam 02:14, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Quote me one article that clearly states "Cuba is the only country in the Western Hemisphere which is not a democracy" that is NOT Americian Government influenced and I'll concede. I just spent 2 hours on google trying to find anything other the Bush and the US. Government saying this. And if you can't then that is a clear POV based on American anti-Cuban hate propaganda. --Scott Grayban 02:19, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

That took 20 seconds. I'll give you a google lesson some time. Adam 02:33, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Uhh maybe I'm just a iliterate American here but that article in no way states your claim. "Behind those figures lie not just human suffering but also an unfairness that is inimical to democracy" only states that the democracy is lacking. It does not support your claim. --Scott Grayban 02:45, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I also notice you seem to like calling me names under your breath that I'm a some kind of commie here. First off I served in the USAF for 20 years, retired as a Master Sargent, have over 14 ribbins and citations. I served in the first Iraq/Iran war and numerious other conflicts. So don't even think I am anything other then American here, I just happen to have a open mind and read more into what our government wants us to believe. --Scott Grayban 02:45, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

the Economist article says: "all but a wretched pair (Haiti and Nicaragua) of Latin American countries are officially classed as “middle-income” and all (except Cuba) are democracies. Which part of this don't you understand? You asked for a source and you got one, so don't now try to wriggle away.
Re your CV - most admirable: you ought to know better than to defend a tinpot despot like Castro. Adam 03:05, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Adam. For the record (if other users can't access that article), Adam sourced an economist article Not always with us dated Sep 15th 2005 which states;

There is a reason for that oversight: all but a wretched pair (Haiti and Nicaragua) of Latin American countries are officially classed as “middle-income” and all (except Cuba) are democracies.--Zleitzen 02:53, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I didn't see that. But no matter. 3 other sources I qouted shows a clear start of a democracy even if its a weak one. So we will just discredit all those as blantant lies, even though one is done by a well respected University that even the US Gov. likes to quote from.Italic text --Scott Grayban 03:18, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

You said: "Quote me one article that clearly states "Cuba is the only country in the Western Hemisphere which is not a democracy" that is NOT Americian Government influenced and I'll concede." I quoted you a plain statement from a reputable and independent source, and now you are dodging and wriggling out of that commitment, as I knew you would. Why should I not conclude you are a common liar? Adam 03:28, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Damn straight I do. Just like you dodged all my links. Your nothing more then a pro-Bush hate Cuba type person. Your the type of person that would stomp and crush anyone who doesn't think your way. You have shown that on my talk page and even admitted to it. Instead of discounting my links that show a democracy is starting you want to disprove that. Your a sad person and closed minded. I showed proof that no matter what anyone says there is a democracy starting and I know its a weak one but it is there. If anyone is suppressing the facts it is you Adam. --Scott Grayban 03:37, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I repeat: you said: "Quote me one article that clearly states "Cuba is the only country in the Western Hemisphere which is not a democracy" that is NOT Americian Government influenced and I'll concede." I quoted you a plain statement from a reputable and independent source. Why will you not now keep your word and concede? Adam 03:56, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Could I propose that these issues of Cuban democracy/lack-of be contained in the main body of the article? Rather than in the brief opening paragraph. Does everyone agree on this? --Zleitzen 03:26, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

No. Adam 03:28, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Zleitzen, give up, this article is being dominated and controlled by narrow-minded Bush activists. When I showed proof of a democracy starting its tossed to the side as a lie. That's fine and I expect that from people like Adam. That said I dispute the entire NPOV on this article. As for proof on that I submit my talk page as proof of Adam's goal about this article. The mediation cabal should take that into consideration as evidence that Adam will not comply with WikiPedia's policy on WP:NPOV. --Scott Grayban 03:45, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't think there's too much to worry about. Adam provided a relevant source as requested. I guess he must be still grumpy about the cricket last year! ;-)--Zleitzen 04:25, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

For what it is worth, Adam Carr's quote from the Economist magazine was an 'opinion piece' note the word 'opinion' in the URL and the "opinion" 'click through' link on the magazines website. I am not saying that 'opinion' doesn't count, but realisticly there is a very broad range of opinion about this question and Adam Carr's opinion (and that of magazine article) is not in the center, but rather on the far edge of the spectrum. BruceHallman 13:21, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Some opinions count for more than others. I'll take The Economist over you any day. Adam 13:26, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

As an aside, the economist article is of interest to me for another reason. "All but a wretched pair (Haiti and Nicaragua) are officially classed as “middle-income”" is very telling in understanding the historical relationships between the US and others in the region. But I don't want to get ahead of myself, here. I recommend we wait for the mediator before getting into further discussion about how they relate to the article. --Zleitzen 14:41, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

This discussion has gone off the rails. Adam, you need to be more polite when dealing with other contributors. Sdedeo (tips) 16:15, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

An honest opinion

Next comment restored from diff after being deleted by User:Adam_Carr without pointing a link to it as required I'm no Historian, Politician, Economist, Journalist, Academic, Wiki-scholar and giving my honest opinion the whole history of Cuba's communist politics on this page is grossly and undebatebly biased. Its style of language and tone is immaculetly vulgar and poorly constructed. I think the entire history of Cuba in the 20th central deserves a good clean up and dispute over its supposed neutrality. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.23.247.222 (talk • contribs)

Adam Carr deleted out this talk page entry Revision as of 00:48, 16 April 2006 82.23.247.222 entitled 'An honest opinion' without giving any explanation as to his reason for the deletion. Although the comment which Adam deleted is blunt, it is not a personal attack and is rather a general criticism, so I am left to wonder about why Adam deleted the comment. Adam, please explain. BruceHallman 02:23, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I think the answers for these questions concerning Adam Carr's edit pattern can be found on Scott Grayban's talk page. --Zleitzen 02:28, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Mr. Adam remove one more talk comment because it doesn't fit your answer and I'll have you removed from WikiPedia for blantant vandalism to talk pages and articles. I have issued this warnig multiple times. You are pushing the wrong person here. --Scott Grayban 02:51, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Please do not remove messages from your talk page. Talk pages exist as a record of communication, and in any case, comments are available through the page history. You're welcome to archive your talk page, but be sure to provide a link to any deleted comments. Thanks.

I'll remove anything from my Talk page I damn well please, as I am perfectly entitled to do.
I am thoroughly sick of BruceHallman's pious lectures about standards of behavior at this page, which are no more than a cover for his political agenda in maintaining this article as a farrago of lies and communist propaganda. Adam 07:48, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
- Those lectures fall under the rule "Misplaced Pages:Don't disrupt Misplaced Pages to make a point." So I'm considering starting an RfC on BruceHallman. 172 | Talk 08:25, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

If we are going to have a mediation here, we need to stay focused. Please everyone stop misbehaving; don't remove talk page posts for now (except to archive), and please leave the lecturing to me! I am sure we can resolve this problem very quickly; the next thing we need is some sources (see my post above.) Thanks, Sdedeo (tips) 17:56, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Communist Cuba

I could not find specific discussion on this part of the text so I removed it because it is a point of view and not a fact that providing health care and education for a population is impossible. "Cuba’s economic dependence on the Soviet Union was deepened by Castro’s determination to build his vision of a socialist society in Cuba. This entailed the provision of free health care and education for the entire population – an ambition which has proved unaffordable even in many developed countries, let alone in a small country with very limited resources and restricted trade. Through the 1970s and ‘80s the Soviets were prepared to subsidise all this in exchange for the rather dubious strategic asset of an ally under the noses of the United States and the undoubted propaganda value of Castro’s considerable prestige in the developing world."

I would also defend changing Communist Cuba. Communism is a form of society without state, Cuba has a state and therefore should not be called such. Socialist Cuba would be more apropriate. I will cite sources on this matter soon.

Also, this is the first edit I make in wikipedia, I would like to apologize in advance for any mistakes I may have made. Chico 12:39, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

You are welcome here. You happen to be dropping in to a place that sometimes encounters heated arguments, so be prepared to try to take it calmly. I really recommend reading the Misplaced Pages:Help pages and the Misplaced Pages:Policy as they provide useful, and even essential information. BruceHallman 13:24, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Democracy and communism

It will be useless for us contributors to argue about whether Cuba is "democratic" or not, because for one thing we contributors are never going to agree on a definition of "democracy". Having president freely elected by the people means one thing to a lot of Americans (yes, we elected Reagan, Bush Sr., Clinton and Bush) and another thing to many other people (no, the electoral college elected him or Supreme Court appointed him). That argument will never settled.

What we MIGHT be able to agree on is what the differences have been over the last several decades between, say, the U.S. government and the Castro government. I think a table would be useful. We could list factors such as free press and free speech during the election period (US yes, Cuba no), must be a citizen of the country to run for office (US: yes, Cuba: er, when was the last election, 1959?); which leads to frequency of presidential elections (US every 4 years, Cuba: once per lifetime of president?).

These things are hard to see in a paragraph, because of word-wrapping. And there are many other differences and possibly some similarities in the form of government, both actual and "on paper".

The analysis above applies to whether Cuba is "Communist" or not; we will never be able to agree on a definition of "communism". Some emphasize its political aspects, others emphasize its economic aspects, still others speak of ideology.

It would be better to describe the politics, economy and culture of Cuba under Castro one aspect at a time. Take emigration, for example. Is it allowed, forbidden, or what? For those who choose to leave Cuba (even temporarily), may they travel as a family, or must some family members stay behind? If so, why? (as hostages to ensure return?) And if it's forbidden, is it a capital crime to leave the country without permission? Is the Navy authorized to sink boats with artillery fire on their way out of territorial waters?

After each aspect is listed and described as thoroughly, accurately and fairly as possible, I suggest we then turn our attention to commentary. Fans of Cuba will no doubt assert that the objectively listed factors prove (in their eyes) that Cuba is "democratic", "free", an excellent example of "socialism" (not "Communism"), etc. Opponents of the Castro regime will certainly use the same list to prove (in their eyes) that Cuba is "undemocratic", "totalitarian" and a typical example of "Communism".

But let's write the facts before the commentary, please. --Uncle Ed 14:07, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate your ideas, and yes we will likely not agree to a definition of 'democracy'. The trouble is that we will also not agree to the defintion of 'free speech', et al, either. For instance you said regarding 'free speech' above "(US:yes, Cuba:no)", a valid opinion. But a contrary opinion is that the US version of 'free speech', where corporations have equal right of speech as real people and that corporate lobby money in government and political campaigns is a protected form of 'speech' so that billion dollar corporations have the protected right to shout louder than real people, can hardly be viewed as the USA having more 'free speech' for real people compared with Cuba. Not necessarily my POV, but I write that POV to show the range of POV's on the subject. Or, when was the last time a USA presidential candidate got elected without the relying upon the use of corporate money 'speech' in their campaign? Not in our lifetime. Are such corporate funded elections truely 'free'? How does the 'freedom' of Cuban electoral system measure up against the western concept of 'free' elections? My point is that in order for the article to be neutral, in many cases we will have to include the range of the POV's. BruceHallman 14:54, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Although I am an editor who is not a particular supporter of Castro, I still believe that this article should be incommensurable. Meaning that Cuban policies should not be overtly depicted in comparison to other models. To do this would set a precedent in wikipedia and open the article up to charges of systemic bias. Again I urge that editors read established, carefully worded, peer-reviewed encyclopedias to learn how to present Cuba in an encyclopedic fashion. --Zleitzen 14:59, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

It will be a challenge to find English language peer-reviewed encyclopedias that too are not victim of systemic bias that come from being a Western English speaking 'peer'. Should the pool of peers not also include those from non-English, former Soviet Union, from Angola, from Cuba, etc. or is the pool of peers you describe only those who grew up on one side of the Iron Curtain, (i.e. who see corporate money speech and corporate lobby money as a valid form of 'free speech') ? BruceHallman 15:10, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I understand exactly what you mean Bruce, the language and cultural barrier is one of the main obstacles here for NPOV. My comments address Ed Poor's table propostion above. --Zleitzen 15:18, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

or is the pool of peers you describe only those who grew up on one side of the Iron Curtain, (i.e. who see corporate money speech and corporate lobby money as a valid form of free speech. Uh, Bruce, there is an idea that we call "civil society" that we talk about here in the West. I suggest you put down Granma for once and start reading about it. I recommend starting with Habermas' work on the public sphere. 172 | Talk 18:03, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

This discussion is going off the rails again; Ed's original suggestion ("show, don't tell") is I think the key to resolving conflicts here. It's important to remember that "democracy" is a very fuzzy concept (Ancient Greece: a democracy? Pre-civil War US? etc.) All we can do is describe what is happening in Cuba, and describe how others view these things. Sdedeo (tips) 18:07, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

When describing whether or not a country today is a democracy, it is obvious that we are using the term as it understood in the contemporary English-speaking world: regular, contested, free and fair multiparty elections. No Western political scientist who studies democratization regards Cuba as a democracy. I already explained this matter to Bruce. End of discussion. 172 | Talk 19:27, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Sources there would be very helpful. Can you cite an academic article discussing this? Something like Foreign Affairs would be good, e.g.. While the views of Western political scientists are very important and should be given strong weight, they won't end up being the only sources. Sdedeo (tips) 20:23, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

neutrality dispute

User:Sgrayban just added the POV box. Would you please describe the nature and details of the dispute so that we may negotiate an agreement to resolve the dispute? BruceHallman 15:23, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

medcabal continuing to try

I'm sorry people, but you are all flipping out and arguing with each other, and it is making it hard for me to mediate here.

We have a set of sources: Some of them (e.g., the Cuban constitution itself, the pastors for peace, which seems to be a non-negligible group) say Cuba is a democracy, some say it has democratic features but is not a full democracy (e.g., the State department, Columbia), some say it isn't a democracy (EU, Economist), some say it shouldn't be called anything but a dictatorship (Free Cuba group).

We are going to have to state all, or most, of these positions in the article.

Does anybody object to the rough sketch paragraph that looks like this: "The Cuban constitution establishes, at least in principle, a state that has the main features of a democracy. However, numerous sources dispute the idea that Cuba is a democracy in any real sense. Source X says. Source Y says. Source Z says."

Sdedeo (tips) 16:12, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for continuing the mediation Sdedeo. I would support such a paragraph being developed in the article. And I'm keen to see this represented according to NPOV. --Zleitzen 16:52, 17 April 2006 (UTC) Btw the EU didn't say Cuba is not a democracy. It made no statement on the matter. --Zleitzen 16:55, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

So do I but Adam wont reply. Your NPOV and he isn't. Its useless to try anymore. Its only going to stay a revert war until the whole lot are blocked for good here. --Scott Grayban 16:58, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

As I said on my talk page, I'm hopeful that the mediation can finish quickly and successfully. What we most need is for people to be as brief as possible, and to avoid getting sucked into larger debates. It might be helpful if people responded only to me, and not to each other, to avoid arguments -- your call.

As for the EU article, it technically refers to the island as a "Socialist republic", whatever that means. We should save the EU criticisms for the Human Rights section, and I think we should probably have a reference to that section (i.e., "See Human Rights below") in the democracy para.

Again, since Adam seems to be the main opponent here, let's now wait for Adam to weigh in on whether he is OK with the rough sketch para above, or if he can suggest an alternative. Sdedeo (tips) 17:04, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Forget it. Looking at his contributions he is editing right now and is ignoring your comment Sdedeo - last edit was 06:38, April 17, 2006 which was just a few minutes ago. --Scott Grayban 17:43, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Just looking at the current version:

Cuba is a socialist republic, in which the Communist Party of Cuba is the sole legal political party . There is a wide range of opinion about democracy and Cuba with opinions ranging from that Cuba is not a democracy to that Cuba is the most democratic country in the world .

This actually seems rather OK to me, although we could use more of the sources that people have identified. Anyway, that's another possibility. Again, I'll just wait for Adam to weigh in on whether either of these versions are OK with him. (Actually, AFAICT, Adam isn't online and hasn't been editing for awhile.) Sdedeo (tips) 17:47, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I too am willing to wait some more for Adam's response and to give Adam the benifit of the doubt. Though Adam wrote here that he doesn't want to fight about the 'democracy' issue so perhaps his silence is an indicator that he doesn't dispute the status quo, and that we can now move on? BruceHallman 17:55, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I think the "silence" of Dr. Carr (he is not an anonymous editor, so show some respect) has much more to do with his impression-- he can correct me if I'm wrong-- that you are not a legitimate editor but a communist propagandist. Frankly, I think his view of your behavior is evidenced above, in your complete misrepresentation of something he told on my user talk page. He definitely did not tell me "that he doesn't want to fight about the 'democracy' issue." Instead, he was telling me that he might not dispute my tentative suggestion that some might consider at least one additional country in Latin America, aside from Cuba, to be another non-democracy. I'm certain that Dr. Carr remains committed to fighting attempts by fidelistas to remove factual content that presents el comandante in a negative light. 172 | Talk 18:48, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Dr. Carr? Of what? Credentials please? As for the Personal Attacks that your comments clearly state is a blocking offense without a warning. I would keep your comments like that to yourself. You are argumentive, disruptive and a troll of talk pages looking at your contributions here. --Scott Grayban 19:00, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I apologize if I disrespected you or Dr. Carr. I certainly did not intend to do so. Though, I disagree with your evaluation that I am "not a legitimate editor". I look forward to cooperatively editing with you in the future. BruceHallman 18:58, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Please do not insult other editors, 172, and please try to assume good faith. Let's not derail things with an argument; can you let us know if you are OK with either of the two suggested paragraphs in this section. Sdedeo (tips) 18:50, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Again, we are getting derailed. Please everyone try to stay focused. Since Adam and now 172 both seem to be the main opponents here, let's wait to see whether or not they are OK with the two paragraphs in this section. Sdedeo (tips) 19:01, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a social club. The site founder, Jimbo Wales, has stated repeatedly that product comes before process. If the rules-- including civility rules-- interfere with the goal of writing a usable encyclopedia, they are to be ignored or modified. Dr. Carr and I are both professional historians and editors experienced as anyone around here. We know how to deal with the crackpots, cultists, and cranks who attempt to wreck articles. Trolls often manipulate naive third parties into thinking that they're acting in good faith; but admins and mediators should be bullshit detectors. If propagandists are sabotaging articles, the administration is supposed to help legitimate editors deal with trolling, not enable trolling. 172 | Talk 19:17, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I have noted and notified admin of User:172 trolling, WP:CIVIL and 4th revert which the later 2 are a blocking offense. Yes I am keeping tract until you are gone from here. --Scott Grayban 19:33, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Uh, I made three reverts today, which is allowed. Read WP:3RR. BTW, if I should be blocked for uncivility because I accused another editor of trolling, so should you. "Yes I am keeping tract until you are gone from here"-- that's not too nice either, is it? 172 | Talk 19:41, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

172, your incivility is interferring with us trying to come to a consensus here, please lay off. Can you please let us know if you are OK with either of the two paragraphs above, and will you please stop reverting, as I asked you to do below. If you and other editors cannot do this, I will request page protection. Sdedeo (tips) 20:05, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm okay with the version I'm revering back to. Cuba is not a democracy. It is inaccurate and misleading to suggest that that's a matter up for debate in the intro. Mediation and consensus are not higher priorities than a basic encyclopedic principle like accuracy. 172 | Talk 20:40, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

If you revert the page again, you will be in violation of WP:3RR, and judging from your block log you know what happens next. I have never advocated putting inaccurate information in the article. Sdedeo (tips) 20:42, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not impressed by the condescension. Content editors do messier work than mediators, and we get into disputes and edit wars at times. But our work is more valuable. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia first. It is a community only insofar as the community serves the goal of writing an encyclopedia. 172 | Talk 20:51, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Please stop reverting; we need to let the article develop and evolve. Please let me know if you wish to participate in the mediation or not. Sdedeo (tips) 20:53, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi, look, I hesitate to say anything since I feel like I might be adding fuel to the fire, but per Freedom House, and this is a direct quote regarding politcal rights: "Cubans cannot change their government through democratic means. Fidel Castro dominates the political system, having transformed the country into a one-party state with the Cuban Communist Party (PCC) controlling all governmental entities from the national to the local level. Communist structures were institutionalized by the 1976 constitution installed at the first congress of the PCC. The constitution provides for a National Assembly, which designates the Council of State. It is that body which in turn appoints the Council of Ministers in consultation with its president, who serves as head of state and chief of government. However, Castro is responsible for every appointment and controls every lever of power in Cuba in his various roles as president of the Council of Ministers, chairman of the Council of State, commander in chief of the Revolutionary Armed Forces (FAR), and first secretary of the PCC." That plainly states that semantics aside, Cuba is not a democracy. Freedom House is an independent NGO that has no ties the the U.S. Government that I am aware of, and I believe it is a credible source in this case. 24.107.121.69 23:48, 17 April 2006 (UTC)--

everyone stop reverting now please

Everyone stop reverting now: we must allow the article to develop in the usual wiki fashion. I have undone the series of reversions that just occured. There is no way we will reach consensus unless we allow the article to evolve in the usual fashion. If you have a problem with a particular passage, edit it, modify it, whatever, but do not simply revert. Sdedeo (tips) 18:53, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Only a wishful thinker

Would argue that Cuba is the most democratic country in the world. There are no free elections, no freedom of speech, and no other political parties. Unless anyone can prove that wrong, this will be the extent of my discussion. CJK 19:42, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Fair question. "Cuba is the most democratic country in the world" is a real point of view along a full range of points of view on this subject. I think the essence of the belief depends on the relative definition of 'free'. For instance are elections and government dominated by corporate money 'free', some say yes, some say no. In Cuba, the elections are not dominated by corporate money, and by that measurement, they are more free and the "most democratic". Similar argument for presidential elections won based on an election offical ruling of a party partisian in a state governed by the candidates brother with systematic disenfranshisment of African American voters. By that measure, Cuba has more 'free' elections. I am not saying that I hold that POV, but just explaining logic of the POV to help you understand. BruceHallman 19:57, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

CJK, I think you just joined the discussion -- welcome. I am here as a mediator to make sure we can get an NPOV section on Cuba's political system and human rights record; our main goal right now is to accumulate sources which are sorely lacking. Please do not revert the page; the only way we will reach a conclusion here is if we allow the article to evolve from its present unsatisfactory state. Sdedeo (tips) 20:08, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi all, would it be helpful to incorporate 172's statement above into the article, alongside other opinions. Something along the lines of "Western political scientists assert that Cuba is not a democracy" with the economist citation or any other more detailed sources 172 could provide? --Zleitzen 20:12, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

This is a good idea -- thank you -- but first of all I'd like to establish if 172, Adam and (now) CJK are OK with the basic idea of sourcing claims and counterclaims about the nature of the Cuban political system. Sdedeo (tips) 20:14, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Adam Carr cited The Economist. That's sufficient. Let's avoid wordiness. 172 | Talk 20:31, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

We are going to have to cite more than one source in order to resolve this conflict. Are you OK with that? Are there any sources in particular you object to? In general, avoiding wordiness is good, but sometimes on the wiki it's not possible. Sdedeo (tips) 20:33, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Elementary facts do not require so many citations. The quality of the article is a higher priority than mediating the dispute. Thank you for the efforts, but mediation is not necessary. 172 | Talk 20:36, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that people disagree on how to describe the Cuban political system, and it is one of wikipedia's jobs to report that, and to source those things. We really do need to cite other sources.

You and others are reverting each other and flaming each other on the talk page: mediation is certaintly necessary. Do not waste my time: if you no longer wish to participate in the mediation, let me know now.

Sdedeo (tips) 20:38, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

The fact that people disagree is neither here nor there. Encyclopedias are supposed to be accurate, even if some people want to believe inaccuracies. BTW, why are you asking me if I "no longer" wish to participate in mediation? I never asked to participate in mediation to begin with. 172 | Talk 20:45, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Do you wish to participate in the mediation or not? Please give me a firm answer. Sdedeo (tips) 20:47, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

So now you're offering? I'm open with the possibility, but not with you. Nothing personal-- I'd just rather deal with a mediator who has been on Misplaced Pages longer, and whom I've seen around the history and politics articles more often. 172 | Talk 21:04, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

OK, you are refusing to participate in the mediation. Thanks for letting me know sooner rather than later. I will leave some final thoughts on the talk page, and close the mediation at the medcabal. Please feel free to make a new request to the medcabal. Sdedeo (tips) 21:06, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

If some don't think the U.S. or any other western country is a democracy because the corporations throw around their money, then they should argue it out on that page. That arguement has no bearing on Cuba, and the blindingly obvious need not be sourced. If we need citation that Cuba is not a democracy, then maybe we need citation that Cuba is in Latin America and not Africa. CJK 20:49, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

The reason the argument about corporate money and 'free elections' is relevant is that the term 'free elections' must be defined on a relative scale. In other words, 'free' relative to what? Cuba, for instance, does not have an unresoved controversy about campaign finance reform. Are their elections more 'free' because they do not have the corrupting influences of big corporate money equating to 'free speech'? Or, a legal equality granted to corporate speech as opposed to free speech rights of real people. Again, this is not necessarily my POV, but I am describing is as an illustration of why that POV has bearing to Cuba and should be represented in the article. BruceHallman 21:23, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Stop with the "corporate money" cliche. It doesn't impress me and my own political orientation is left-of-center. I expect more depth out of teenage undergraduates, and much more from people with whom I'm supposed to be collaborating. Do you have any understanding of the development of civil society in the Western democracies? 172 | Talk 22:58, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

172, you know as well as anyone (or at least you should) that there is never consensus amongst political scientists on anything. Democracy is no different, despite your assertions. There are plenty of respected political scientists that would argue that no country on earth practices democracy (polyarchies anyone?). And most political philosophers would agree that term has been manipulated for political leverage. Political scientists would balk at the dogmatic line of argument you appear to be taking. And it's why respected encyclopedias tread carefully and avoid this line of reasoning. --Zleitzen 01:01, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

In his work on "polyarchy" Robert Dahl is using the term "democracy," along with "republicanism" and "liberalism," in its classical sense. When an encyclopedia is referring to whether or not a particular country today is a "democracy," it is clear that we are dealing with "democracy" in its contemporary sense. In its contemporary sense the term is associated with liberal democracy. 172 | Talk 09:28, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Dahl defines a "democracy" as an "ideal" system in the sense that there are no examples past or present. He writes about a spectrum of varying polyarchies. Respected encyclopaedias recognise these complex ambiguities and thus explicitly avoid judging whether or not a particular country such as Cuba is a "democracy,". It's not up to us to assume that readers associate the term with Western liberal democracy. This is an international encyclopaedia after all, read by people from Taiwan to Trinidad. --Zleitzen 10:22, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I've read Dahl. You're not telling me anything new. We are not dealing with the ideal-type of democracy. We are dealing with how the term is commonly understood to apply to contemporary regimes in the English-speaking world. And actually, yes, it is up to us to assume that readers associate the term with Western liberal democracy. This is the English Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions clearly states "article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity." That means "democracy" in the sense in which it is used in English-language publications like The Economist-- not Granma, not an academic ideal-type, not the ancient "democracy" of Greek thinkers like Thucydides and Pericles. 172 | Talk 11:28, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

medcabal finished

172 has refused to participate in the mediation; since medcabal is totally informal, there's not much I can do. 172, feel free to request a new mediation from the cabal if you like, but be aware that you don't get to pick who you want the mediator to be.

Some final thoughts. Re: the article itself: the "Human Rights" section is abysmal by current wiki standards. There are no sources (zero!) provided, the presentation is extremely confused, and minor and major things are all mixed up. This section needs a real rewrite. Re: the "democracy" debate: I've made it clear what I think the "canonical" wiki solution should be.

Re: user behavior. I am amazed that both 172 and Adam -- users who have a huge number of edits and have a record of constructive contributions elsewhere on the wiki -- have behaved so poorly during this process. Both 172 and Adam have been rude and uncivil to other editors. There is no excuse for that, and it has materially impeded getting on with improving the article. Sgrayban, CJK and 172 (again) have been involved in a revert war, which is ridiculous.

I urge everyone to stop the incivility and rudeness right now, and I urge people who encounter it not to rise to the bait and to simply ignore (i.e., not respond) to this sort of thing. The latter suggestion here is just as important as the former: don't allow yourself to get wound up. I wish everyone the best, and I hope people can get back to the real business of creating an encyclopedia sooner rather than later. Sdedeo (tips) 21:17, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Sdedeo for helping us. BruceHallman 21:24, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

172, feel free to request a new mediation from the cabal if you like, but be aware that you don't get to pick who you want the mediator to be. Sure we can. Misplaced Pages is not a bureaucracy, and mediation is voluntary. And one does not have to be a declared "medacom" member to mediate a dispute. Thanks for your intent to help. 172 | Talk 23:02, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, that's not the way the medcabal works in general -- it's hard enough getting any mediator, let alone one made to order. In the meantime, and I can say this now that I'm no longer involved, please don't thank me; you have wasted my time by participating in a mediation up until you didn't get the result you have been continually revert-warring back to.

I've seen behavior like yours before (you're the third one): first you participate in the mediation, although you dish out a good amount of rudeness and incivility all around. Then as we move towards a consensus, and you don't have much ground to stand on, you declare that the prose is inelegant. Finally, there's a coda where I go back and forth trying to get you to declare clearly whether or not you want to participate in the mediation -- that took a few rounds.

Sdedeo (tips) 23:13, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Uh, I never asked to participate in mediation nor was I ever participating in it. I was responding to some of your comments because you decided for one reason or another to get involved in the discussion. I don't know what brought you here. You just showed up. If you feel like you're wasting your time, I suggest changing your approach to mediation or dropping the gig and picking out some other work, like editing articles. 172 | Talk 23:24, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I posted repeatedly that I was here as a mediator, titled sections with "medcabal", and explained in detail why I was here; you had ample time to declare that you resented or refused this. While you claim now that you were unaware that you were participating in a mediation, I find that rather hard to believe. I don't believe I wasted my time, I believe you wasted my time, and further that you are quite aware of it. That's the last I'll say on this matter; fortunately wikipedia is a large enough space that we don't have to encounter each other again. Sdedeo (tips) 00:09, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

People may not want mediation, but they may be reluctant to tell you to go away if you show up just to avoid coming across as rude. You know, for a mediator, you're pretty abrasive. 172 | Talk 09:12, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

arbitration

I don't want to raise this to the next level in haste or unilaterally, but per the Dispute_resolution procedure, the next step would be to request arbitration. Are there other people in this group of editors who are willing to jointly request this matter be appealed to the Arbitration Committee? BruceHallman 21:31, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I would suggest waiting. Just because I failed it doesn't mean that a compromise can't be reached. My suggestion at this point would be to take a few days off, and to come back later: things seem way too heated right now and it is possibly the case that the current stalemate will only be resolved when people leave and "new blood" comes in.

RfAs take a long time and are very unsatisfying: see here for one experience. Many times in my experience conflicts have died down of their own accord (we do have one user banned for 3RR, which might also help cool the flames.) Anyway, best of luck -- Sdedeo (tips) 21:35, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I support the request to move this dispute to the next level of the Dispute_resolution procedure. --Zleitzen 22:11, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

This dispute is getting ridiculous. Its just between the vast majority who recognize that Cuba is undemocratic versus the tiny minority who say it might be. Due weight should be enforced and I'm sure the arbcom would agree (though given my past experience, I could very well be wrong). CJK 00:45, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I see 3 maybe 4 people arguing one way vs those arguing for wikipedia and encyclopedic standards to be upheld, personally. --Zleitzen 01:07, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but this the opposing side is generally over-represented on Misplaced Pages. CJK 23:27, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

RFC

The RFC didn't have a pointer to the discussion page, so I'm starting one. The text currently reads:

Cuba calls itself a socialist republic, in which the Communist Party of Cuba is the sole legal political party. Cuba is the only state in the western hemisphere which is not a pluralist democracy in addition to being the sole Communist state in the region.

This seems accurate and NPOV to me. If someone says otherwise, please respond to this comment. -- FRCP11 01:14, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I think it would be more acurrate to say it is the "sole state governed by a communist party". However I still find it useful to link it to the Communist state page, I have no clue on how to do this, if any one does help me!

Chico 01:34, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi FRCP11, I requested the Rfc. But have added the "pluralist" since then to make it less subjective. I believe that

"Cuba calls itself" and then "being the sole Communist state" is contradictory, inaccurate and portrays systemic bias. Cuba is a socialist republic, in which the Communist Party of Cuba is the sole legal political party, according to the Cuban constitution. What other people call it should be mentioned somewhere later in the article. --Zleitzen 01:48, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Your statement is a conclusion, rather than an argument. "Socialist republic" doesn't seem to have any real semantic meaning, except in the Orwellian sense--many socialists would disagree with the characterization of Cuba as a socialist republic, and certainly most republicans would disagree with the oxymoron of a one-party republic; you call the phrasing contradictory without identifying a contradiction; you call the phrasing inaccurate without identifying the inaccuracy. I still don't understand why anyone would challenge the current phrasing on grounds other than style. -- FRCP11 02:26, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the "socialist republic" is a conclusion, FRCP11, but we've agreed on that by using many sources etc after a dense period of discussion. "Communist State" is also a conclusion. The difference is that the first conclusion relates to the Cuban constitution, the second is a label applied to Cuba from outside. "Communist State" is inaccurate because, as Chico has explained, technically there can be no such entity as a "communist state". Communism is to live in a stateless society. --Zleitzen 02:39, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

So? It's a label applied from outside. Misplaced Pages is descriptive, not prescriptive. That Communism defines itself to be stateless doesn't mean that there haven't been states understood to be Communist states: the Soviet Union; North Korea; Cuba. There are many words that have drifted from their etymology. There exist Arabs who are both Semites and "anti-Semites"; "corporate governance reform" can make corporate governance worse.

Would you prefer "Communist dictatorship"?

I said "contradictory, inaccurate, and portrays systemic bias" was conclusory: you hadn't justified those claims (and still haven't, except in a prescriptive sense). I did not say that about "socialist republic," which is simply glurge, and thus needs the "calls itself" qualifier to have any semantic meaning. -- FRCP11 03:10, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Apologies if I'm not making myself clear here, this debate tends to leave one weary! To clarify, we have two descriptions. I believe the second is a Western term that should be discussed in the main body of the article rather than the intro. --Zleitzen 03:08, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

That's what the debate is about? Again, you state the conclusion, rather than giving an argument for it. WP:NPOV would seem to require balancing the Cuban Orwellian self-description with the neutral objective observation that Cuba is not actually a republic, as well as noting its unique status in the Western Hemisphere as the only Communist state here. It's the one most notable thing about Cuba: it's a Communist dictatorship on the US's doorstep. Leaving out of the introduction would be an attempt to sanitize that violates NPOV. -- FRCP11 03:15, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

OK, we disagree. I don't believe that the one notable thing about Cuba is that it's a Communist dictatorship on the US's doorstep. I believe the European Union when they catagorise Cuba as a Socialist Republic (see source). I also believe that the term "Communist state" originated in Western society from the fact that the vast majority of such states are or were run by Communist parties who hold a monopoly on political power. Therefore the label "Communist state" this should be discussed in those terms. --Zleitzen 03:39, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I would have to disagree. The fact that out of 47 sovreign states in the Western Hemisphere there is only one that is a Communist dictatorship is in fact, quite significant. However, I do agree that the term "Communist state" is a term of Western socio/political derivation that does not in fact apply to Cuba. If descriptive terms are to be used, they should be as accurate as possible - calling the United States a democracy is inaccurate, it is actually a democratic federal republic, calling Cuba a Communist state is wrong when the correct term would be Communist dictatorship. Just my .02, --rjg6755--modean 04:32, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I’d rather not get too drawn into this debate (yet again), but the definitions of a state made by parties from other states should be treated with caution in an encyclopedia. Therefore we should rely on the Cuban constitution (with perhaps another notable source as back up) in the introduction, and discuss "communist state / dictator" etc international POV's in some detail later on. It is giving undue privilege to a particular view to do otherwise. Rather like having Cuban observations appearing in the opening of the article on the United States. This is the fashion of almost all the other nation articles on Misplaced Pages, so I don't see why Cuba should be an exception. --Zleitzen 05:27, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I can agree with the sentiment re: definitions, however I don't necessarily agree that relying on the Cuban constitution is the best solution. The proof is, as they say, in the pudding. The description of the government/state that is provided by the Cuban constitution is not necessarily reflective of the actual form of government/state that Cuba possesses. For example, say the country of Larryland has adopted articles of confederation that define the state as a democracy, but subsequently restricts voting eligibility to 1% of the population, only by the most blinkered view could hold that Larryland is indeed a democracy. The same is true of Cuba. The Cuban constitution describes the governmental type as "a socialist state of workers...a united and democratic republic", but Freedom House says otherwise, noting that Cubans cannot change their government through democratic means. Fidel Castro dominates the political system, having transformed the country into a one-party state with the Cuban Communist Party (PCC) controlling all governmental entities from the national to the local level...All political organizing outside the PCC is illegal. Political dissent, spoken or written, is a punishable offense, and those so punished frequently receive years of imprisonment for seemingly minor infractions. This is obviously not a working democracy, by any reasonable standard - regional or international. So if we cannot agree on this, perhaps a compromise is in order. Could we agree to say something to the effect that, "While the Cuban Constitution professes a socialist democratic republic, the domination of all levels of government by the Cuban Communist Party (PCC) and the lack of political freedom means that Cuba is a de facto communist dictatorship." or something to that effect? It may need some work to be more NPOV, but it is more in line with what NGOs like Freedom House and Reporters Without Borders say. --rjg6755 24.107.121.69 06:39, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I think the Freedom House link is a relevant link to the article, rjg6755, in that it shows that certain groups do not believe Cuba is a democracy as defined by those particular standards. I would favour a thorough discussion within the main body of the article on these matters rather than an inconclusive judgement in the intro that will just get reverted back and forth. Earlier in the talk pages I quote from an encyclopaedia which I felt was the best tone to take if you want to take a look. My motivation is to counter potential bias, particularly in relation to the US which is dominant here in what should be a global encyclopaedia. And it works both ways, if you see my comments to editors on the archived Iraq page you'll find that I'm advocating against exaggerated charges concerning US involvement in Iraq during the 1980's. --Zleitzen 08:10, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate the need to maintain a NPOV in the Wiki environment, and I included the Freedom House link in a previous post where someone had asked for a non-U.S. aligned NPOV cite that Cuba was not a democracy, in that regard I think it has more weight than other cites from governmental sources in the U.S. or Cuba where there is going to be an inherent bias because of their political relationship. However I concur with your assessment and I can accept that a more appropriate placement for this would likely be within the main body and not necessarily in the lead paragraph. Given the controversy that surrounds the Cuban system of government within the Wiki community, and in the outside world where the Cuba's critics and allies clash even more vociferously, I believe that getting true NPOV wording may be nigh impossible, the best we might hope for is something that makes no one happy (then at least it's NPOV!).--Rjg6755modean 16:37, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

The current wording of that sentence is POV. It reflects a political attitude commonly heard in right wing circles of the USA which is not the appropriate neutral tone necessary in an encyclopedic article for a global audience. Don't misunderstand me, I am not arguing that your point of view is wrong, or that your point of view is not 'true' to you, just that it is not universally 'true', and that it is not neutral. BruceHallman 05:35, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

With minor revisions for style, I'm okay with the Hallman edit to include "widely criticized." I'm going to add a clause for human rights problems. -- FRCP11 15:03, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi User:FRCP11, before you consider work on adding to the opening paragraph, I recommend that you survey other nation pages for tone and content. Particularly nations which have gross recent human rights records such as Turkey and Pakistan. To uphold neutrality across Misplaced Pages, and to protect the encyclopaedia from charges of systemic bias we would have to consider such edits carefully. --Zleitzen 18:30, 18 April 2006 (UTC)