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Economy of Europe
I think this would be in the economy section: Europe has a long history as the world's richest and most productive part of the world. At the time of Christ's birth is estimated western European output per capita was approximately 30% higher than the world average. Year 1500 had this advantage increased to 40%. After the development of science and the Industrial Revolution in Europe grew its lead quickly, in 1700 produced an average European almost 70% more than world's average population, and in 1850 was taken over the entire 150%. Around the year 1900 was Western Europe's leading role as the world's most productive area has been taken over by the former European colony of the United States, but Europe has continued to belong to the world's richest, most productive and knowledge-producing regions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.103.205.2 (talk • contribs) 12 January 2011
Chinese Name Change
I deleted the following sentence from this page:
- which is an abbreviation of the transliterated name Ōuluóbā zhōu (歐羅巴洲)
I did this because, I have never heard this term though I am a speaker of Chinese. I asked some native Chinese speakers, and they also had never heard this term. I have found any research indicating that the term 欧洲 is an abbreviation of 欧罗巴州, as the deleted sentence suggests, though 欧罗巴 is direct transliteration of the word Europe into Chinese. The word was used on the Chinese Language Misplaced Pages page refers to 欧罗巴 only as a transliteration for the Greek word "Europa." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Agenbite (talk • contribs) 27 January 2012
A Continent only by Convention and Not in Fact
The fact that Europe and Asia are not really separate continents should be recognized at the beginning of the article. Yes, by convention! That is sort of like saying the two are "honorary continents." Or maybe this should be compared with "the emperor's new clothes"? This is all so elementary. The convention has to be referred to, but we should make clear that it is not true, as is of course clear to the beginner who reads more of the article. In his Study of History, Toynbee analyzes this false division. To the early Greeks, the two seemed to resemble separate continents because they were divided by the Straits, the Black Sea, and the Aegean--but not further north. Actually, "Asia" originally referred only to Anatolia.I would have to check exact references and may not get to this task soon. Someone else is welcome to do so. Eleanor1944 (talk) 05:16, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
- We already open that it is a continent by convention. CMD (talk) 10:20, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
- I think the use of the phrase "by convention" is quite sufficient. Language is convention, and Europe is conventionally defined as a continent. As far as I can see, the introduction does not in any way imply that Europe and Asia are separate continents (in the sense of being separated by an ocean or being on different tectonic plates, for instance). Similarly, the Pacific Ocean is separated from other oceans by convention rather than by land. I can't imagine anyone being misled into believing that Europe and Asia are not contiguous.--Boson (talk) 10:44, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
- The Americas are really continents by a convention then as well, since they are not really separate continents, but connected my a thin stripe of called called Central America. Norum 06:37, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
- Only if you then consider that Africa is also only a continent by convention as well, as it is connected to Eurasia by the Sinai peninsula. 64.180.40.75 (talk) 22:08, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
- The Americas are really continents by a convention then as well, since they are not really separate continents, but connected my a thin stripe of called called Central America. Norum 06:37, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
1945–1990: The Cold War
I think this section should be rewritten. Spain, for instance, didn't need to recover from World War II, as the article seems to imply, because it didn't participate in the conflict and wasn't in a state of ruin because of it. Also, it seems unbalanced to mention Franco, as none of the leaders of the other countries are mentioned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.29.182.219 (talk) 15:50, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
Political geography ➜ France
France metropolitan aera is not accurate. Check France. 109.15.46.23 (talk) 06:19, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
hello
My name is Basit and i am boy of 16years old i am here for knowledge i will like to contact you here mail me on basitalhassan16@yahoo.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.251.172.134 (talk) 14:34, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
Geography of Europe
How does this unsourced verbosity help (in reference to the Arctic, and not also the Atlantic), while detailing this below in the appropriate section is reverted as unsourced? As even a basic map will reveal , this is rather incomprehensible, even idiotic. A fuller explanation is required. Ubiquinoid (talk) 07:33, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
- If you want to add content to the main body of the article, please find a reliable secondary source ftom which to paraphrase the edits you wish to amle. Just listing seas which you consider to contiguous to the island or mainland of Europe is WP:OR and not helpful to the reader. Please ind a reliable source mentioning that content and that paraphrase it from there. Making inferences from maps is WP:OR (some divine entity apparently has told you to mention the English Channel but not the Irish Sea). So please don't tell other editors that not accprting your unsourced reseach is idiotic or incomprehensible. It is WP policy. Please don't edits without sources in this case. A map is not a source: an academic textbook is a source.In this case the cited reference is the Encyclopedia Brittanica and the citation states, "It is bordered on the north by the Arctic Ocean, on the west by the Atlantic Ocean, and on the south (west to east) by the Mediterranean Sea, the Black Sea, the Kuma-Manych Depression, and the Caspian Sea." It does not include seas in your self-generated arbitrary list. Please do not make personal attacks either her or in your edit summaries. I will restore the content from the EB. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 09:21, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
- You seem willy-nilly in your commentary and editing. The root of the challenge is in your initial tendentious maintenance of unnecessary wordiness upfront, misplaced and unsourced at all, while deprecating a worthwhile attempt to economise the lead and add detail in the appropriate section. That certainly does not help editing. I did not list every single bay, cove, and sea ad nauseum since this is supposed to be a summative article, but they are major bodies bordering the mainland listed by the IHO. I can very well source every single assertion (e.g., IHO, European Environmental Agency), but the point has been made and I have little time to quibble excessively over minutiae. And, given your apparently troubled editing history, you are not one to lecture me on etiquette. End thread. Ubiquinoid (talk) 10:14, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
- If you want to add content to the main body of a wikipedia articlesuch as this high profile article, please adhere faithfully to sources. Most of what you write above has no place on an article talk page: there is no need to personalize the discussion. Inventing content that is not in the cited sources is WP:OR and cannot be included. This is amongst the most viewed articles on wikipedia. There have been periodic discussions about borders, which are now discussed in several sections of the article (in particular the definition of Europe). Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 10:43, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
- You should have considered your own advice with the first revert; everything else I have noted above is valid, and may restore more once I source it. And that is all. Ubiquinoid (talk) 11:07, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
- If you want to add content to the main body of a wikipedia articlesuch as this high profile article, please adhere faithfully to sources. Most of what you write above has no place on an article talk page: there is no need to personalize the discussion. Inventing content that is not in the cited sources is WP:OR and cannot be included. This is amongst the most viewed articles on wikipedia. There have been periodic discussions about borders, which are now discussed in several sections of the article (in particular the definition of Europe). Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 10:43, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
- You seem willy-nilly in your commentary and editing. The root of the challenge is in your initial tendentious maintenance of unnecessary wordiness upfront, misplaced and unsourced at all, while deprecating a worthwhile attempt to economise the lead and add detail in the appropriate section. That certainly does not help editing. I did not list every single bay, cove, and sea ad nauseum since this is supposed to be a summative article, but they are major bodies bordering the mainland listed by the IHO. I can very well source every single assertion (e.g., IHO, European Environmental Agency), but the point has been made and I have little time to quibble excessively over minutiae. And, given your apparently troubled editing history, you are not one to lecture me on etiquette. End thread. Ubiquinoid (talk) 10:14, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
LGBT section Same-sex marriage
An editor added unsourced content that appeared to be WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. Per WP:BRD, I reverted that addition. If proper sources can be found concerning the continent of Europe, then content could be added. I personally doubt that any textbook or encyclopedia uses the terminology LGBT and my feeling is the article should not either. (Incidentally the spelling in the article is "British English": please see the template at the top of the page.) Mathsci (talk) 09:04, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
- The same user added this content again without engaging in discussions here. The heading "LGBT" already expresses a point of view which goes beyond what is in the sources. The material is WP:UNDUE in such a general article about a continent. The same kind of edits have been made to Africa and reverted for similar reasons: this is utterly irrelevant for this article which is about a continent. Mathsci (talk) 03:53, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
- First you said there are no sources. Then when i added sources you still complain. How am i suposed to take you seriously when you keep changing your mind and moving the goal post? As for WP:UNDUE, the paragraph is very short wih only three short sentences. If it was six or seven sentences i'd see your point about undue weight, but not in this case because its a very small paragraph. Pass a Method talk 07:06, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
- WP:UNDUE appears in both edit summaries. This is amongst the most read articles on wikipedia. Here, instead of composing content yourself, you have cherry-picked and copy-pasted sentences from an existing wikipedia article to produce this content. In the original article they were not properly sourced. You have decided to add content only concerning "single sex marriages". You added your own sources later without changing the content (or for that matter the US spelling of behaviour). The original and unchanging objection is that material that you have concoted (in some cases concerning legislation that is still being discussed) has no place in a very general article on a continent. In the same way, although they are not comparable, there are a large variety of topics not directly related to the continent that are not discussed (capital punishment, the death penalty, women's suffrage, enforced sterilization, etc). The same applies to Africa and it would seem that you appear to be pushing some kind of agenda here. The article in the EB on Europe has no section on same-sex marriage, because it is not relevant to an article on a continent. You have edit warred on Africa and Europe about similar content, which has no direct bearing on the main topic. Mathsci (talk) 09:32, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
- Considering LGBT issues are a major topic of discussion in European newspapers, per due it would be appropriate to list them. As for the the topics of death penalty, suffrage, those can be discussed in the political subsection. "Gay europe" gets 1 trillion results on google. which is more than double of "religion europe", suggesting it is an important topic. Pass a Method talk 09:45, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
- This is not a current affairs article. It is an encyclopedic article on the continent of Europe. It does mention the European Union, but that is just one part of the article. You have a created a "LGBT rights" section on the same level as "Religion". Perhaps in an article on the recent politics of the European Union, it might be appropriate, but not here. You have concocted a short essay on a topic of interest to you—"same-sex marriage"—and are edit-warring to keep it in the article. But if it is not the sort of thing found in a major encyclopedia and involves WP:RECENTISM, why should it be in the article on wikipedia? It is arbitrary content (like the issues of ordination of women or gay bishops) and seems to be your personal cherry-picked selection of material, copy-pasted from an article where it is relevant. I don't think googling "gay europe" is really the way we edit wikipedia or decide on content. (My simple explanation for the number of hits is that that particular combination of words brings up a huge amount of material unsuitable for safe-searching or for encyclopedia articles.) In the same way we don't include material about child abuse, racial discrimination, etc, etc. Please take a look at the article in the Encyclopedia Britannica to get a sense of balance. There seems to be no justification for adding this kind of content when it is only indirectly related to the main topic of the article, the continent of Europe. I have asked Maunus to comment here. Mathsci (talk) 10:03, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
- One of the ways wikipedians measure Due Weight is by seeing how often a topic is covered in media, books etc. In this case, LGBT issues are covered often enough for there to be mention of this issue. Otherwise your objections can be used to the language subsection too, or the religin subsection. right? I reiterate, there are only three sentences. Pass a Method talk 10:20, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
- Your sole justification is that by typing "gay europe" into google you come up with "trillions" of links: but many of these, possibly the overwhelming majority, are undoubtedly to sites that specialize in gay porn, rent boys, bath houses, etc. That is not a persuasive argument for introducing this WP:UNDUE content. You are POV-pushing and edit-warring and highly likely to be blocked for editing tendentiously on an anodyne and neutral article. Usually this kind of tendentious editing has occurred with those making edits related to Eastern Europe and transcontinental countries. Your edits are equally disruptive. Someone else will undoubtedly remove the section you added. Mathsci (talk) 12:55, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
- I gave other justifications, please re-read what i said. Furthermore, i want you to give me one good reason why social, language, immigration and religion deserve a subsection but LGBT does not? Pass a Method talk 13:14, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
- None of your changes improve the article. The edit about inventions does not match the EB source but seems to be your own personal point of view. The LGBT section seems to be irrelevant POV-pushing. Copy-pasting cherry-picked content from other articles is not the way to write wikipedian articles. I was unable to check the EB links about inventions: they no longer work. So presumably in changing the content, you made it up yourself. The references for the first sentences are the book of John Boswell: it is hard to see how the one sentence summary was made from pages 80-85. The book has a chapter on "Same-sex unions in the Greco-Roman world" (pages 53-107). The sentence is not an accurate summary of that chapter, nor of what follows. The second reference is again a reference to same-sex marriage and Roman law. But although homsexuality and its acceptance might be of interest, why the fixation on same-sex marriage? The second sentence is from "Latitude News" (is it a WP:RS?) and a CNN news report. This is not a current affairs article nor a place to report on same-sex marriage, before it has even been legalized and has dubious relevance to this actual article on a continent. Shuffling around other material under dubious headings also seems arbitrary and does not improve the article in any way whatsoever. You don't actually seem to have used any sources, since all the content you added was copy-pasted from LGBT rights in Europe. Mathsci (talk) 14:28, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
- Firstly, there are no wikipedia rules against copy-pasting from other wikipedia articles. Secondly, you make contradictory statements; is it (a) the lgbt section entirely is the problem? or (b) the fixation on same-sex marriage is the problem? You dont get your point accross too well. Pass a Method talk 14:44, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
- Read WP:CWW, attribution is required. You did not do this. --92.4.177.142 (talk) 15:52, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
- Firstly, there are no wikipedia rules against copy-pasting from other wikipedia articles. Secondly, you make contradictory statements; is it (a) the lgbt section entirely is the problem? or (b) the fixation on same-sex marriage is the problem? You dont get your point accross too well. Pass a Method talk 14:44, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
- None of your changes improve the article. The edit about inventions does not match the EB source but seems to be your own personal point of view. The LGBT section seems to be irrelevant POV-pushing. Copy-pasting cherry-picked content from other articles is not the way to write wikipedian articles. I was unable to check the EB links about inventions: they no longer work. So presumably in changing the content, you made it up yourself. The references for the first sentences are the book of John Boswell: it is hard to see how the one sentence summary was made from pages 80-85. The book has a chapter on "Same-sex unions in the Greco-Roman world" (pages 53-107). The sentence is not an accurate summary of that chapter, nor of what follows. The second reference is again a reference to same-sex marriage and Roman law. But although homsexuality and its acceptance might be of interest, why the fixation on same-sex marriage? The second sentence is from "Latitude News" (is it a WP:RS?) and a CNN news report. This is not a current affairs article nor a place to report on same-sex marriage, before it has even been legalized and has dubious relevance to this actual article on a continent. Shuffling around other material under dubious headings also seems arbitrary and does not improve the article in any way whatsoever. You don't actually seem to have used any sources, since all the content you added was copy-pasted from LGBT rights in Europe. Mathsci (talk) 14:28, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
- I gave other justifications, please re-read what i said. Furthermore, i want you to give me one good reason why social, language, immigration and religion deserve a subsection but LGBT does not? Pass a Method talk 13:14, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
- Your sole justification is that by typing "gay europe" into google you come up with "trillions" of links: but many of these, possibly the overwhelming majority, are undoubtedly to sites that specialize in gay porn, rent boys, bath houses, etc. That is not a persuasive argument for introducing this WP:UNDUE content. You are POV-pushing and edit-warring and highly likely to be blocked for editing tendentiously on an anodyne and neutral article. Usually this kind of tendentious editing has occurred with those making edits related to Eastern Europe and transcontinental countries. Your edits are equally disruptive. Someone else will undoubtedly remove the section you added. Mathsci (talk) 12:55, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
- One of the ways wikipedians measure Due Weight is by seeing how often a topic is covered in media, books etc. In this case, LGBT issues are covered often enough for there to be mention of this issue. Otherwise your objections can be used to the language subsection too, or the religin subsection. right? I reiterate, there are only three sentences. Pass a Method talk 10:20, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
- This is not a current affairs article. It is an encyclopedic article on the continent of Europe. It does mention the European Union, but that is just one part of the article. You have a created a "LGBT rights" section on the same level as "Religion". Perhaps in an article on the recent politics of the European Union, it might be appropriate, but not here. You have concocted a short essay on a topic of interest to you—"same-sex marriage"—and are edit-warring to keep it in the article. But if it is not the sort of thing found in a major encyclopedia and involves WP:RECENTISM, why should it be in the article on wikipedia? It is arbitrary content (like the issues of ordination of women or gay bishops) and seems to be your personal cherry-picked selection of material, copy-pasted from an article where it is relevant. I don't think googling "gay europe" is really the way we edit wikipedia or decide on content. (My simple explanation for the number of hits is that that particular combination of words brings up a huge amount of material unsuitable for safe-searching or for encyclopedia articles.) In the same way we don't include material about child abuse, racial discrimination, etc, etc. Please take a look at the article in the Encyclopedia Britannica to get a sense of balance. There seems to be no justification for adding this kind of content when it is only indirectly related to the main topic of the article, the continent of Europe. I have asked Maunus to comment here. Mathsci (talk) 10:03, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
- Considering LGBT issues are a major topic of discussion in European newspapers, per due it would be appropriate to list them. As for the the topics of death penalty, suffrage, those can be discussed in the political subsection. "Gay europe" gets 1 trillion results on google. which is more than double of "religion europe", suggesting it is an important topic. Pass a Method talk 09:45, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
- WP:UNDUE appears in both edit summaries. This is amongst the most read articles on wikipedia. Here, instead of composing content yourself, you have cherry-picked and copy-pasted sentences from an existing wikipedia article to produce this content. In the original article they were not properly sourced. You have decided to add content only concerning "single sex marriages". You added your own sources later without changing the content (or for that matter the US spelling of behaviour). The original and unchanging objection is that material that you have concoted (in some cases concerning legislation that is still being discussed) has no place in a very general article on a continent. In the same way, although they are not comparable, there are a large variety of topics not directly related to the continent that are not discussed (capital punishment, the death penalty, women's suffrage, enforced sterilization, etc). The same applies to Africa and it would seem that you appear to be pushing some kind of agenda here. The article in the EB on Europe has no section on same-sex marriage, because it is not relevant to an article on a continent. You have edit warred on Africa and Europe about similar content, which has no direct bearing on the main topic. Mathsci (talk) 09:32, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
- First you said there are no sources. Then when i added sources you still complain. How am i suposed to take you seriously when you keep changing your mind and moving the goal post? As for WP:UNDUE, the paragraph is very short wih only three short sentences. If it was six or seven sentences i'd see your point about undue weight, but not in this case because its a very small paragraph. Pass a Method talk 07:06, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
(outdent) I have to agree with Mathsci, particularly on undue emphasis. Same-sex marriage is essentially a civil/human rights issue and that is not a topic which is extensively discussed in the article. Referring to same-sex marriage but not female genital mutilation, human trafficking or religious persecution is as good example of wp:undue as you'll probably get. — Blue-Haired Lawyer 17:57, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
- Europe is a continent with a millenial history - same sex marriage, and LGBT right, is a small and very specialized topic that has no relevance to the description of the continent of Europe (just like female rights, worker's rights, or even human rights). Such political topics may be relevant for the particular countries - but since there is no reason to think that countries in Europe share any particular reation to the topic of LGBTQ there is no reason it should have a subsection in this article. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 20:06, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
- ^ Madisson, Angus (2009). [http://www.ggdc.net/maddison/Historical_Statistics/horizontal-file_09-2008.xls Statistics on World Population, GDP and Per Capita GDP, 1-2006 AD].
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