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Talk:Illinois Family Institute

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Re: Christian Reference

Regarding the description of the Illinois Family Institute, the "About" page on their website ("About") does refer to "Judeo-Christian" teachings at the top, but later references to the organization refer to them as a Christian organization (cf. "educate Christians," "consistent with Biblical Christianity" and "relationship with other Christian ministries," all of which are in the third graf). I would like to solicit other editors' opinions on whether this is sufficient to call the organization a "Christian organization." Thanks!

Windchaser (talk) 21:49, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Hi, I'd only seen the Judeo-Christian ident on top, a bit hasty on my part. In view of what the rest of the page says, I'd say it's enough, and that you had it right the first time. However, knowing that such labels are contentious, I'd appreciate any other input on the question too. --j⚛e decker 22:01, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

RfC Should SPLC "hate group" designation be in the lead?

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Illinois Family Institute has been designated by the Southern Poverty Law Center as a hate group based on "their propagation of known falsehoods — claims about LGBT people that have been thoroughly discredited by scientific authorities." Should this be included in the WP:Lead as a notable criticism? Insomesia (talk) 20:03, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

  • Include in lead, with context of why they are labelled This is a small article on a not large group and they have already earned the distinction of being labelled a hate group by the nation's leading authority of such groups. It has nothing to do with politics but everything to do with spreading lies about a minority segment of society. If they spread lies about women, another race, or even against a political party they likely would have earned the same designation. This is the main criticism against the group and it is a notable criticism from the leading authority in this area. Insomesia (talk) 22:14, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Exclude from lead. If we put in more about the organization in the lead, we could possibly include the "hate group" designation, but not the "reason". (And "reason" does need to be in quotes.) — Arthur Rubin (talk) 01:51, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
    • I think the hate group designation with the reason has to be in the lead as notable criticism with the reason they were labelled as such, not because of what they believe but in the actions they took. I agree the reason likely should be in quotes so it's not in Misplaced Pages's voice but remains why SPLC felt the hate group designation was earned by Illinois Family Institute. Insomesia (talk) 07:34, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
      • The detailed reason should not be in the lead, unless the detailed tenets of the organization were in the lead. It's undue and misleading to do so. The fact of the designation should not be in the lead, unless the general tenets of the organization are. (That would be an improvement.) — Arthur Rubin (talk) 08:25, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
        • Could you explain why you feel it's misleading or undue? I don't necessarily agree about the tenets of the group but typically, unless they are very brief, those are not included in leads of organization articles. Insomesia (talk) 22:50, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Include in lead - This is a key fact about the organization. I'm StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 08:06, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Include - That they are called a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center should definitely be in the lead. It's a very important piece of factual content per reliable sources. The reasons why should be in the body only. --76.189.108.102 (talk) 17:52, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Exclude Criticism belongs in an article, but not in the lead. That space is for listing the topic's most significant achievements or attributes, not for one organization or person's opinion of it. Reliable sources have designated George W. Bush a fugitive war criminal and Dane Cook terribly unfunny but, like here, the issue is with undue weight. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:05, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
    • Actually notable criticism belongs in the lead as well. Per WP:Lead, "explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points—including any prominent controversies." SPLC is the nation's leading authority on hate groups, this is the very definition of notable criticism. Likewise if we had the nation's leading authority of religious groups or activist groups putting Illinois Family Institute as one of the best organizations I would support that being part of the lead as well. Insomesia (talk) 22:50, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
I totally disagree with InedibleHulk, but I do like his name a lot. It's great. --76.189.108.102 (talk) 00:09, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
It doesn't seem to be a 100 results of citing discredited research. Certainly that's the top result - maybe they only did it once? The article I cited is, significantly I think, using the word "occasionally". In other words, this is not the main reason they have been listed. StAnselm (talk) 21:57, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
  • include The lead is meant to summarize the article. IRWolfie- (talk) 13:43, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Include per insomnia Pass a Method talk 14:29, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Include' in lead section; very important and prominent fact about IFI. We would be burying our heads in the sand if we ignored it in the lead section. Binksternet (talk) 16:07, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Exclude - It's debatable whether a bare statement of the listing should be in the lead. Considering how small the article is, going into a lot of detail as to why it is classified as such is undue weight. It's the opinion of one organisation and having half the size of the lead regarding their opinion is a violation of WP:Lead and WP:Weight. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Acoma Magic (talk • contribs) 15:49, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
    • If you're basing your argument on WP:LEAD then it would have to be an "include" !vote. LEAD says to summarize important article contents in the lead section. The article spends considerable attention on the hate group designation, so LEAD directs us to summarize that with something, not nothing. WP:WEIGHT is about the article body, mainly; when applied to the lead section it would be about whether the SPLC designation gets one sentence or more. WEIGHT does not tell us to have nothing about the hate group designation in the lead section. Binksternet (talk) 21:04, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
The problem is the language that's attached to mentioning the designation: "their propagation of known falsehoods — claims about LGBT people that have been thoroughly discredited by scientific authorities." That's undo weight for inclusion in the lead of such a small article. Acoma Magic (talk) 00:10, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
Ah, I understand your position now. Thanks! Binksternet (talk) 01:10, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment This article describes the actions of living people, as such care needs to be taken to ensure it doesn't turn into a WP:ATTACK article. The SPLC designation and related criticism is already a substantial part of the article and any further expansion needs to balanced by non-negative content. I suggest a history section and details of politicians and others they may have supported. Stuartyeates (talk) 00:06, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Paul Cameron

I think the deleted information about why SPLC considers Illinois Family Institute a hate group should be restored fully.

In it's Hatewatch, the SPLC states the designation was based on the association with Paul Cameron, a researcher who has been disassociated from professional organizations American Psychological Association, the Nebraska Psychological Association, and the Canadian Psychological Association, the later for "consistently misinterpreted and misrepresented research on sexuality, homosexuality, and lesbianism."

  1. Michael Kranish (July 31, 2005). "Beliefs drive research agenda of new think tanks". Boston Globe. Retrieved 2006-08-31.
  2. Committee on the Status of Homosexuals in Sociology (1987). "The Cameron Case" (PDF). Footnotes. 15 (1): 4, 6. Retrieved 2009-01-31. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)
  3. ^ Canadian Psychological Association. "Policy Statements". Retrieved 2007-02-20. The Canadian Psychological Association takes the position that Dr. Paul Cameron has consistently misinterpreted and misrepresented research on sexuality, homosexuality, and lesbianism and thus, it formally disassociates itself from the representation and interpretations of scientific literature in his writings and public statements on sexuality. (August 1996)
  4. Potok, Mark (April 17, 2009). "The Illinois Family Institute Again Cites Discredited Research, Briefly". SPLC Hatewatch. Retrieved 29 August 2012.
  5. Southern Poverty Law Center. "Active Anti-Gay Groups". Retrieved July 8, 2012.
Thank you for ceasing your edit war. This article is not about Paul Cameron, and the above paragraph is basically a coatrack - that's the BLP issue. StAnselm (talk) 00:23, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
And thank you for continuing it after you got your way, it helped me see the playing field being offered for collegial editing. The sources disagree with you, SPLC named the group a hate group, which is one of the few notable things about the group and they directly cite the association with Paul Cameron as the main reason. The SPLC called him a discredited researcher but we need to use more NPOV language so we can simply note the disassociation with professional groups he's worked with in the past and let our readers decide what to think. I think the quote

The Canadian Psychological Association takes the position that Dr. Paul Cameron has consistently misinterpreted and misrepresented research on sexuality, homosexuality, and lesbianism and thus, it formally disassociates itself from the representation and interpretations of scientific literature in his writings and public statements on sexuality.

is explicit and avoids the use of Misplaced Pages's voice making declarations but let's work through this word for word. Insomesia (talk) 00:53, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

This explains the SPLC designation, so it's relevant. I'm StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 02:27, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

I reverted to the "pre-BLP" version because of the BLP claim. Can we talk about the BLP concerns?  little green rosetta(talk)
central scrutinizer  02:47, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Sure, go ahead. I'm StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 02:50, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
I'd like to here those concerns as well. Please keep in mind we have an entire BLP devoted to the man where this goes into great detail. Insomesia (talk) 02:58, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
So would I. I've asked StA to comment on them here. The reason for my revert was that no one even talked about his BLP concerns during your brief edit-war. BLP concerns trumps most everything. If someone raises that flag it has to at least be discussed. I suggest you give him some time to respond here or at BLP/N.  little green rosetta(talk)
central scrutinizer  03:06, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
Actually I addressed those concerns and stated so in my edit summary using different terminology and references. Insomesia (talk) 05:47, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure everybody in this discussion is already familiar with the problem, as this same issue was recently encountered elsewhere. SPLC is not a reliable source for contentious material on living persons because it lacks editorial oversight and because it has a clear conflict of interest. See WP:NOTRELIABLE, which provides three separate tests: Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for checking the facts, or which lack meaningful editorial oversight, or those with an apparent conflict of interest. SPLC fails two out of the three outright. Belchfire-TALK 04:24, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
Wrong. The SPLC is considered reliable in almost all statements and numerous agencies and media cite the as reliable for their information. They do fact-checking and are a legal resource so work to ensure their material holds up to legal scrutiny. So the SPLC has an excellent reputation for fact-checking, they also have editorial oversight and the only conflict of interest is the one alleged by social conservatives who object to some of the groups that have been designated as hate groups. Insomesia (talk) 05:47, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
Sorry, but this is just partisan bilge. You've shown us no evidence of editorial oversight beyond your own self-serving opinions. And if you can't see the conflict of interest, I don't know what to say other than "LOL". Belchfire-TALK 06:18, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
I'll take your snarky response as you have no policy-based reasons to leave this content out. If you decide to act more collegially then by all means. Insomesia (talk) 07:12, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
You can take it for whatever you want, but you have not provided a policy-based reasons to include the content. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 08:16, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
These consistent efforts against the SPLC need to stop. It seems only editors within wikiproject conservatism think it's unreliable. The consensus of RSN was that it is reliable for facts. IRWolfie- (talk) 09:34, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
If that is the consensus of RSN (which isn't apparent), then it seems to be against policy, unless we wish to amend WP:NOTRELIABLE to remove the requirement for editorial oversight, as it's clear that there is no oversight at SPLC except for the quarterly magazine. And I am not a member of WikiProject Conservatism. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 09:47, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

How many editors in chief do you require for something to have editorial oversight? IRWolfie- (talk) 10:24, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, I guess I need to respond here, although I stand by my point of the insertion being a coatrack. The offending text was about a third of the article. That is massively undue weight - talking about the doing of someone who has no affiliation with the organization. But also, the current statement relies on the Intelligence Report, whereas the insertion in question relied on the Hatewatch blog. Whatever our opinions of the reliability, neutrality and significance of SPLC criticism, I'm sure we'd all agree that blog statements are not going to be as good as the Intelligence Report publications. I draw your attention to WP:SPS (emphasis original):

Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. Take care when using such sources: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else will probably have done so. Never use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people, even if the author is an expert, well-known professional researcher, or writer.

Although the Psychological Association sources may be reliable, the only way we can connect Paul Cameron to this group is through a blog post. So I don't know why we're even having this discussion - it simply doesn't belong. Also, I'd like to see evidence that Potok is an expert - does he have "reliable third-party publications"? StAnselm (talk) 11:12, 30 August 2012 (UTC) StAnselm (talk) 11:12, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

  • Correction Regardless of any consensus, RSN lacks the authority to negate BLP policy.
Responding to Insomnesia's remark above: I made the policy-based argument crystal clear. SPLC cannot be used as a source for this purpose because (1) it lacks editorial oversight (which you did not refute) and (2) it has a conflict of interest (which you did not refute). Saying that "SPLC has an excellent reputation" (which is dubious) is merely a statement of your (biased) opinion which does not demonstrate fulfillment of these requirements.
I will repeat the same challenge I posted elsewhere: show us some examples of SPLC retracting an error. They've made well over 1000 of these hate group designations, surely there have been mistakes. So when have they ever admitted one publicly? If the response is that they've never made a mistake, that should tell us everything we need to know about their credibility. Belchfire-TALK 14:45, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
BLP/N would be the next logical step.  little green rosetta(talk)
central scrutinizer  15:22, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
Agree, fallacious arguments will just get the circular discussion in limbo, perhaps that's the goal? The RSN has been effective and they are happy to get others involved if needed. Insomesia (talk) 19:08, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Excuse me, but whatever this is, it's not a BLP issue. It would be a BLP issue if, for example, we made false and negative statements about Cameron. This is, at most, some quibbling about relevance combined with attempts to ignore the fact that SPLC is considered a reliable source. So, since it's not a BLP issue, I trust that nobody here will be trying to edit war under cover of "oh, I had to revert that because BLP".

Now, as for the issue, I don't see any plausible argument for excluding Cameron. If there's one buried in this discussion, I'd like you to summarize it below. I'm StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 20:48, 30 August 2012 (UTC) I'm StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 20:48, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

It makes controversial statements about Cameron. "False and negative" is irrelevant. It's "unsourced, controversial" statements that are forbidden.
It's subject to BLP, unless the sources are BLP-reliable. Any rational person would see that SPLC is not BLP-reliable, but I haven't checked the other sources. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 21:34, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm a bit disappointed that no-one has responded to my point that we're not looking at SPLC as a reliable source here, but at an SPLC blog being a reliable source. StAnselm (talk) 22:00, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

I need to back off here. If the statements about Cameron, other than the connection to IFI, are reliable sourced, we could use them, even if negative. And if the connection is that SPLC attributes IFI's actions to Cameron's then, that would be allowed if it's an SPLC statement. (If it's an SPLC blog, we would have to check to see whether it's reliable for SPLC's opinions.) — Arthur Rubin (talk) 22:17, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
I think this needs to go to WP:BLPN. StAnselm (talk) 22:22, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
BLP/N would at least be the proper venue. RS/N is not. Belchfire-TALK 02:11, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
Arthur, it's already been through RSN and other editors viewed it as reliable. Don't make me go there again to have them repeat back to me that it's reliable. IRWolfie- (talk) 09:22, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
. My recollection is that there is no statement at RSN, other than a statement that it was previously decided, that SPLC can be BLP-reliable. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 14:46, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
The highly respected Intelligence Report carries the information connecting Paul Cameron's hate speech and Peter LaBarbera's hate speech to the hate group designation of IFI. See "18 Anti-Gay Groups and Their Propaganda", Evelyn Schlatter, SPLC Intelligence Report, Winter 2010, Issue Number: 140. There's no reliability issue here, no BLP issue either. No coatrack issue if Cameron's faulty work and hateful analysis is simply connected to IFI rather than described in detail. Binksternet (talk) 16:18, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
That seems to be OK then, although there's still little indication of editorial control, other than its use by (other) reliable pubications. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 17:55, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Canvassing

Note that Mr. X was canvassed to come here and interfere with the RfC. I'm StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 05:27, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Libel?!

I just reverted this change because it's based on the mistaken idea that it's somehow libelous to state that the IFI was designated as a hate group by the SPLC. We state this for many other hate groups, from the FRC to the KKK, and we do so in safety because our reliable secondary sources are comfortable doing the same. I'm StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 16:50, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

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