Talk:2001 Tiananmen Square self-immolation incident

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2001 Tiananmen Square self-immolation incident is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Misplaced Pages community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.

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A couple of notes

Can I make a few suggestions? Well, let me not wait to hear the answer. I'm just reading through the piece again and will write what comes to mind on the various sections. These notes may or may not be helpful. I'll leave it to the editors of the article to decide.

The incident

Does not mention that CNN's film was confiscated. Seems kind of an obvious thing to have?

Chinese state media reports

This section admirably conveys the informational aspect of state reporting following the incident, but obviously that is not the most prominent, or noted aspect, of the activities of state media following the incident. There should be some explanation here of how the incident was immediately seized on to attack Falun Gong. The vituperative nature of state reports does not come through.
I suggest the first paragraph be curtailed since it is all unreliable state propaganda. It is undue weight. I suggest a terse summary of the detailed claims made in the first paragraph. They are entirely unverifiable, and presenting them as factual, in such detail, is in my view a disservice to the reader. These cannot be understood as "facts" as we usually understand that term, and should not be reported as such. The first paragraph should be reduced to about a third its size.
The affiliation of the "China Association for Cultic Studies" is not mentioned. This seems very strange. (i.e. it's a state run organization that was set up to spread propaganda on the practice.)
Certain terms like "required spiritual level" should probably be in scare quotes, to emphasize the fact that they are from state propaganda outlets. Just like "avid practitioners." All this content is strictly speaking propaganda aimed at defaming the practice, in the context of a well-documented violent persecution. Its presentation here does not make that clear enough.
The unusualness of the fact that Xinhua released details of the incident hours after it occurred is not noted. Several writers have pointed out that this is strange for such a political incident. We heard recently about a self-immolation on Tiananmen Square by a dispossessed farmer that was completely suppressed by state media until a British tourist brought it to light, who happened to be there on the day. The alacrity with which these reports emerged should be noted in this section rather than elided.
The final line by HRW doesn't belong in this section.

Falun Gong response

I seem to recall slightly more sophisticated in the FLG response, in that they said that so much around the incident remains unknown. This would be worth noting. The fact is that they cannot know for sure the individuals were not practitioners; their original PR seemed to emphasize the need to approach the matter with caution.

Third Party findings, links to Buddhist tradition; Dispute

I'm taking all these as basically the same thing. They are a big set of claims and counter-claims, some based on facts, some based on opinions, many a combination of somewhere inbetween.
Why not simply call this whole section "Dispute" or "Issues in question" and then a series of subsections like "The identity of participants," "Falun Gong's teachings," "Access to victims," "Possible state involvement," which go through and look at the issues in question. Either of those may be better than the confused sections we currently have, which are really a series of claims and counter-claims, many of which have no evidence, on a range of the issues at stake, without any overall guiding logic to the presentation. Most of these are just pundits sounding off, but it's cloaked as something else.
Such a schematic presentation would also prevent the POV-pushing that is currently taking place across these three sections.

I will do Aftermath later. Maybe I should just start editing myself. Other highly charged pages, such as that around the shooting of Trayvon Martin, which I have edited, benefit from a much wider constituency of editors. If only were the same for this page. I've just pointed out some of the issues I see above. The Sound and the Fury (talk) 17:27, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for coming to the talk page first. In the case of clear, unambiguous problems, you can go ahead (cautiously, I hope). If other editors raise divergent views, they can be discussed. If we do choose to make larger structural changes, or changes that could potentially alter the balance of the article, I think they should be made through a process of consensus-building. Your idea of a systematic, issue-based approach to the dispute may have some merit, but I'd like to see what other editors think.—Zujine|talk 18:18, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm not going to edit. Obviously there is rarely such a thing as "clear, unambiguous problems" on a page like this. But you knew that. My main proposal, above, remains. The Sound and the Fury (talk) 18:30, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

To someone who is involved or even a cursory knowledge of Falun Gong, TSTF's 'suggestions' smacks of the exact same sort of tactics used by banned Falun Gong users to advance the Falun Gong world view (just read through the archives of this talk page and follow the arguments of asdfg12345 (talk · contribs), dilip rajeev (talk · contribs) and Olaf Stephanos (talk · contribs). To TheSound's credit, he does not engage in personal attacks or overly emotional language. But he, aided and abetted by two other users who consistently patrol all Falun Gong articles, is trying to single out User ohconfucius, an editor with a clean and flawless (and neutral) record of editing a wide range of articles, of 'bad faith editing' along with a series of other far-fetched accusations. If they succeed, God help this encyclopedia. Colipon+(Talk) 04:10, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I suggest you refrain from making personal attacks, or impugning the motives of other editors. Please discuss content. —Zujine|talk 04:58, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

These were not personal attacks, merely assessments based on my experiences editing these articles. I have engaged in 'content discussions' before, both at this article and at other Falun Gong-related articles. They are not discussions in good faith. They are always fruitless. And they intimidate non-involved editors. No matter what arguments are presented, what sources are referenced, there will always be a problem with it as long as it does not suit Falun Gong's dualistic world view. I cannot countenance such a 'content discussion' when I know it is not in good faith. Engaging with such supposed 'content discussions' is not only a waste of time, it also lends legitimacy that this is somehow a battle between pro-FLG and anti-FLG, which it is not. Colipon+(Talk) 13:25, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

TheSound, in previous discussions from last year, we grappled with the presentation of these 'issues in dispute,' so to speak. The current format was arrived at organically as a way to coherently present the counter-narratives, while also separating Falun Gong's response from other third-party findings. I think it served the purpose, but it's true there may be better approaches to the organization. I'm just going to write some considerations and thoughts here. (I hope that observers don't get worried that this is a harbinger of massive changes. I'm just sharing ideas). A possible organization, based on the current one, could go something like this:

Background
The incident

People involved

Chinese state media reports
Falun Gong response (remove some of the specific points of evidence, and discuss in general terms what FG's views and positions were)
Issues in dispute (based on the information already on the page, with presentation just formalized. FG's evidence and that of third-parties is sometimes difficult to separate, so might be mixed together, making clear which statements come from whom. Each of these points would be quite short, working from material already on the page. In the event that Chinese authorities have responded to the challenges raised, we can add that.)

Identity of self-immolators
Behavior of self-immolators
Availability of fire extinguishers
Source of footage
Death of Liu Chunling and Liu Siying
Speed of official media reports
Lack of independent corroboration (/ access to victims?)
Role of Falun Gong scripture (to replace what is now 'links to buddhist tradition')

Interpretations (I'm proposing this as an alternate name for the section currently titled 'dispute')
Aftermath

Media campaign and public opinion
Violence and reeducation
Impact on Falun Gong resistance
Fate of the self-immolators

Again, these are just ideas. I don't know that a reorganization is a pressing need. It might improve readability and navigability, but ultimately would affect little change to content. There might also be a concern that some disputed issues are not covered by these sub-headings. Anyway, I hope we're not just going around in circles, and that each iteration is actually an improvement. I assume more editors are watching this page now — any outside feedback on the page organization or other issues would be helpful.

Regarding the article's FA status, I'm not sure of the appropriate procedure here. Significant changes have occurred over the last several days, and some problems have been identified along with new proposals for improvement. Should we try to agree to changes, make them within some predetermined timeframe, ensure the page is stable again, and then seek FA reassessment? Or should the page be assessed now (and probably be delisted on account of recent instability), then fixed, then assessed again? Homunculus (duihua) 16:16, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Homunculus, thanks for your productive engagement. I think that organizational structure looks pretty interesting. I'd actually suggest that the focus in both the Chinese media section and the Falun Gong section have more on the perspectives that are projected, and also third party analysis of them to the extent that its present, rather than emphasizing the "factual" nature of what each side is saying. It's basically a war of PR - although, each does make a series of factual claims.

The sections look fine. I don't think we need an "interpretations" section which is again just a space for various sources to sound off on their pet theories. One could fill that section with Schechter types or Sisci types, but I don't think that necessarily helps the reader. Better to present it in the schematic structure above, addressing whatever evidentiary or argumentative point is appropriate, rather than a sort of free-for-all. I really agree with Colipon's point about this not being a pro-Falun Gong or anti-Falun Gong issue. In fact, I think presenting the issues like this, in their complexity, will really help unwind the juxtapositions and sharp (false) dichotomies that sometimes build up on pages like this. The Sound and the Fury (talk) 03:49, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Can you clarify what you mean by the proposal that "both the Chinese media section and the Falun Gong section have more on the perspectives that are projected, and also third party analysis of them to the extent that its present, rather than emphasizing the "factual" nature of what each side is saying."? That might get tricky. I mean, we don't want the section on Chinese media to be full of secondary sources commenting on the propagandistic nature of the reports, right? Maybe I'm not understanding your suggestion. Regarding the dispute section, as I said below, I think there's still merit to including it, though that doesn't mean that it can't be tweaked. Secondary source analysis is still valuable to readers trying to figure out what to make of such divergent narratives. Such is my opinion.Homunculus (duihua) 05:46, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

It'd probably be sufficient to move some of the stuff from the first subsection of the Aftermath section, in the first paragraph and a few things from the second--whatever relates to the immediate actions of Chinese state media channels. The Aftermath can then be for the aftermath, say, a month or more down the road, not the immediate response. There may have been some attempt to pare away the Chinese state reporting on the facts of the incident from the propaganda aspect of their reports, but such a division could only be artificial. Seems to make more sense just to put the immediate stuff in one place, and the repercussions in another. That's all I mean. It's along the lines of logic-guided content partitions that I mentioned above. The Sound and the Fury (talk) 15:22, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

A proposal for a more logical presentation of some parts of the article was made by me back in March, and refined by Homunculus in April. There haven't been any objections (it's fairly uncontroversial and will simply improve navigability and sense without impacting much the content itself) so I will go ahead with it. TheSoundAndTheFury (talk) 20:19, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Taking stock

In the last week or so, this page has been through something approximating 150 edits. In the course of this activity, there have been some rather significant changes—some perhaps for the better, and others maybe less so. Some new concerns have been raised that have thus far not been adequately addressed, and there are some old issues to resolve as well. ~~As this article is now up for FAR,~~ I hope we can identify and resolve these issues in a timely manner. I will suggest, as other editors have done elsewhere on this page, that this discussion focus strictly on content. Editors who find that they have difficulty refraining from accusations of bad faith or ad hominem attacks, or who do not wish to see the article improved, are strongly encouraged to recuse themselves. I, for one, will simply ignore any comments that do not relate to improving the page.

I am going to consolidate here the problems I've seen raised by others, and a few I've seen myself.

There is some inconsistency in the use of British and American english
The last sentence of the lead, regarding the rise on Falun Gong death tolls, is a primary source, and may be considered original research in that the source does not directly connect this trend to the self-immolation. Unless a better source can be found, this should be removed.
Some editors have objected to the background section singling out the views and findings of particular individuals. I cannot tell if this is still an objection.
The 'background' section, as it stands at the time of writing , is lacking some references. As I raised in a discussion thread last June, this version of the background section also oversimplifies the dynamics between Falun Gong and the party-state in the 1990s (namely, it implies that Falun Gong was merely being criticized by a couple skeptics between 1996 and 1999. Really, the Ministry of Public Security was monitoring them, their books had been banned, and factions within the party-state were sanctioning criticism of Falun Gong (and other qigong practices) in the media and other fora. That was the wider context in which folks like He Zuoxiu were acting). A different version of this section, seemed on the way to resolving these problems, and also included more detail on the chain of command and legal framework established around the crackdown, some of which may be relevant to this article. That version been reverted on the ground that it gave too much detail and undue weight. The precise concerns have not been specified.
It has been proposed that the background section should contain slightly more information (even more than was in [http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Tiananmen_Square_self-immolation_incident&direction=prev&oldid=485643694 this version) regarding the nature of the persecution and the...shall we say, audacity of Falun Gong's continued protests (and the problems that presented for China's leaders). It seems there is disagreement about the ideal length of the background section, and it is not clear how we are to determine which details have direct relevance.
As has been pointed out several times on the talk page, there is a misattributed quote in the article. Specifically, the response from Falun Gong to the scripture "Beyond the Limits of Forbearance" currently quoted in the article is credited to a Falun Gong center in New York. The secondary source (in this case the Guardian), made a minor error in attributing the source; this quote actually came from a group of practitioners in Mainland China, and was published as an essay on a Falun Gong website. My understanding of WP:V is that, when it is clear that a secondary source made a factual or interpretive error, it can be fixed through reference to the primary source.
The 'incident' section does not note that CNN reporters had their tapes confiscated
Concerns were raised that the section 'Chinese state media reports' did not make sufficiently clear that the details are from a government sources. It was also suggested that this section should focus more on the intended message and tone of these reports, including the timing of them.
The government affiliations of the 'China Association for Cultic Studies' is not made clear
A quote from Human Rights Watch does not belong in the section on 'Chinese state media reports'
It was pointed out that the Falun Gong PR immediately after the incident was perhaps more reserved and nuanced than the page currently suggests.
It has been proposed that the matters in dispute be explicitly delineated (a proposal is above) to make this section more easily navigable. Doing so would also provide a venue for Chinese government responses to third-party investigations, where available.
Ian Johnson's views (or evidence, I should say), is not currently included, but may be notable (this relates to the strange timing of the official news reports)
It has been suggested that we might reduce or dissolve the current 'dispute' section. (Personally, I disagree; third party interpretations of this event are still helpful in making evaluations of all the relevant facts)

Did I miss anything? I hope we can move forward on these issues within the next couple weeks.Homunculus (duihua) 05:05, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

This is helpful. On number 14, that is not what I meant. Please re-read the suggestion I made in full. It's more nuanced than just deleting stuff. A lot of these changes shouldn't be controversial anyway, and the time it takes to write about them could be spent fixing them (i.e. wrongly placed content) On 8, I think it's clear that it's government sources. It just seemed that odd weight was given to the factual details, which are not the main thing, and not enough explanation of the general direction and purport of the reports (i.e. that this incident proves that the Falun Gong are an evil religious cult that burn themselves to go to heaven and the central government's decision was correct.) or perhaps that is clear enough. The Sound and the Fury (talk) 15:28, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
This article is not "now up for FAR"; see WP:FAR instructions, specifically:
... should not nominate articles that are featured on the main page (or have been featured there in the previous three days)...
and
Before nomination, raise issues at talk page of the article. Attempt to directly resolve issues with the existing community of article editors, and to informally improve the article.
The hope is that mainpage exposure will result in issues being resolved on talk, or at least encourage editors to work towards that before nominating at FAR. The FAR nomination was out of process, and was removed. FAR is not dispute resolution: editors should attempt to resolve issues first on talk, rather than rushing to FAR, which is at least a month-long process. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:35, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. Hope we can work through issues regardless.Homunculus (duihua) 15:37, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

I just took care of a couple of the items listed above, and it seems some were already addressed as well. The only ones remaining are issues 3(?), 5, 8, 11, 12, 13, 14. It's nice to see progress—thanks for working on this.—Zujine|talk 04:50, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

If there are no clear and articulate objections, I think someone should just go ahead with these suggested improvements. The Sound and the Fury (talk) 18:15, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't think neutral edits are being made according to the above problems. Please discuss further about possible edit structure and wording, especially Ohconfucius, Homunculus, Zufine, whom all seem to have differing POVs in their revisions on this article. - M0rphzone (talk) 22:02, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Hi M0rphzone, regarding your rolling back to the March 26th version of the page, there were some changes that occurred between March 26th and now that did seem to achieve consensus. Specifically, several images were removed because they failed fair use; some non-controversial content was added to the 'aftermath' section; primary source research was removed from lede; American english was changed to british, references were fixed, etc. Please see earlier discussion threads where these issues were identified and resolved. There are unresolved issues, to be sure, but things generally seem to be moving forward. If you're not sure about something, please ask (and if there are specific diffs that look funny to you, perhaps you can identify them individually, lest good edits get reverted along with questionable ones). Thanks for looking over the page. Homunculus (duihua) 22:17, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

H, I'm not sure why you added a POV tag here (or maybe you just restored it along with other things). It's been on the page for a while without any explanation. We've identified areas for improvement, but none among these seem to be POV issues, so I removed the tag. Correct me if I've overlooked something.—Zujine|talk 04:48, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Among the proposed changes listed above, I think the most pressing is the update to the background section. As stated above, I suggested this about a year ago, but it wasn't until an editor wrote this version that these suggestions were acted upon. The new version was reverted for reasons that were never constructively explained. I'll explain again, and very specifically, why I think that we should restore that version / why the current background section is inadequate.

The current version of the background section oversimplifies the dynamics between Falun Gong and the party-state in the 1990s. It implies that Falun Gong was merely being criticized by a couple qigong skeptics between 1996 and 1999, and that this led to a chain reaction that ended in Falun Gong being suppressed. This is not the case. All of the recent books on Falun Gong, such as David Ownby's, David Palmer's, Benjamin Penny and (to a slightly lesser extent) James Tong, describe a much more complex dynamic emerging in the mid- to late-1990s that reflected disputes at high levels of the party between competing factions, and also reflected broader disagreements about the role of independent civil society, religion, etc. in Chinese society. While Falun Gong was initially supported and sanctioned by the government, contentions first arose as part of a general backlash against qigong in the mid-1990s. When Falun Gong withdrew from the CQRS amidst mounting tensions, that's when it became a target of officially sanctioned criticism and scrutiny. Beginning in 1996, the Ministry of Public Security started monitoring practitioners, their books had been banned, and factions within the party-state were sanctioning criticism of Falun Gong (and other qigong practices) in the media and other fora. That was the wider context in which folks like He Zuoxiu—a member of the top-level party consultative conference—were acting. Some factions and government ministries continue to support and advocate for Falun Gong, but the group's fate was sealed on April 25. Current version captures none of this nuance, but this version does.
The current version says almost nothing about the events transpiring between April 25 and July 22. It says only that Falun Gong was banned on July 22. But again, if we consult the books mentioned above, a great deal more nuance emerges. The July 22 notice was a series of prohibitions, not a law. And the actual persecutory campaign began days earlier on July 19 or July 20, depending how you're judging it (media campaign began on the 19th, thousands of practitioners detained on July 20). Current version also doesn't include any information on the 610 Office, which is highly germane. The 610 Office exercises control over media coverage and judicial processes, among other things. This article discusses Chinese media coverage and trials. Readers should know that, where it involves Falun Gong, the media and judiciary are answerable to the 610 Office. Again, current version includes none of these details, alternate version does.
Both versions seems to involve some original synthesis, noting that Time magazine said Falun Gong websites encouraged practitioners to "step up" demonstrations on Tiananmen Square. Notice the date of the Time magazine article? It came out several months after the self-immolation. It is not part of the background. However, we can replace this with some other relevant background on the scale, significance and audacity of Falun Gong's public resistance in general.

Are these any objections? Comments? Homunculus (duihua) 19:57, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

No objections. Do you plan to make the edits where the various issues are summarized and combined, as discussed above? On your last point, if the article is referring to events before the immolation, then just because it came out a few months later does not make it automatically not part of the background. Do you mean to suggest that post-facto postulation is not properly speaking "background information"? I think Falun Gong produced post-immolation reports attempting to fill in their version of the background also after the fact—are they then inadmissible because published after? The Sound and the Fury (talk) 02:39, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't see this before. Need to revisit all these proposals. Like I said, I think one of the first things is the background section. I'll try putting something together. My point wasn't actually about post-facto postulation. It was that the use of the TIME magazine article was inappropriate; statements made months after this event is not background to the self-immolation. If the goal of that sentence was to illustrate the importance of Tiananmen Square as a venue for Falun Gong protests, there are other (and better) ways to make the same point.

As to post-facto postulation, I don't think there's any need to include Falun Gong's post-immolation reports either in the background section.

I'll try to get to this sometime this week. It's the long weekend now. Once we've sifted through these proposals, I think it would be appropriate to file to have this page reassessed. Homunculus (duihua) 16:32, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

A Funny Joke

-Why do the authors of this propaganda piece... I mean article feel the need to remind us about the "state-run media" every other sentence?

-Why is it overloaded with emotionally charged, POV, opinion-based phrases such as "torture and imprisonment of its practitioners", "a belief that is not supported by Falun Gong’s teachings", "campaign of state propaganda", "eradicate Falun Gong", "widespread use of torture, sometimes resulting in death",

-Why does it give undue weight to conspiracy theories involving men in dark overcoats, complete with fuzzy photographs that prove absolutely nothing? The general consensus is not that this incident was staged by evil fu-Manchu sinister Chinese government officials in dark overcoats who appear out of nowhere to strike deadly blows upon burning human beings without anybody noticing.

Could it be, shock horror, because this is another FLG propaganda article policed by FLG SPA's? AnAimlessRoad (talk) 15:36, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Controversial claims, such as those presented by the state-run Chinese press, should be given inline attribution.
There is nothing POV, emotionally charged, or opinion-based in these statements of fact. This is the kind of language used by reliable sources on the subject.
There is one short paragraph explaining the analysis of CCTV footage showing the man in military overcoat striking down the woman. This piece of evidence has been referenced in several RS articles on this subject. It's notable, and not given inordinate weight.
Who are these FLG SPAs you're referring to? Homunculus (duihua) 16:18, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

I took this article to FAC, and was disappointed after a small bunch of editors usurped it and turned it into what you see. I tried to return some semblance of political neutrality to it, but you will see my efforts were in vain; it has gotten worse. If even I give up, as I have, I fear few others are likely to tread this quagmire. --Ohconfucius 10:06, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

FYI, that guy was site banned then banned as an abusive sock... The Sound and the Fury (talk) 13:18, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

That user most definitely had issues with his conduct, though pointing that out is mostly a red herring. The real problem is that this article's balance had been totally destroyed since it was taken to FA status, and that it should undergo FAR. I personally feel sympathetic to the users who worked so hard to get the article to where it was for FA, just to see it wither away gradually. Colipon+(Talk) 14:42, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Wow, this article is absolutely pathetic and has massive POV problems, and I have only read the intro.

"to protest the unfair treatment of Falun Gong by the Chinese government." - unfair is not attributed but is written in wikipedia's voice - POV of course
"to justify the torture and imprisonment of its practitioners." - what? way to go to the extreme rather than simply stating "to justify persecution of its practitioners."
"and the government began sanctioning "systematic use of violence" against the group." - sourced to let's see, "Falun Gong practitioners"... statements by the Chinese gov are constantly attributed yet highly controversial and important claims are written as fact.

I need to get to work now, I hope there is discussion work done while I am away, there is no question a POV banner is required for such a blatant - at least to POV watchers - propaganda piece. Unique Ubiquitous (talk) 12:46, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Good points, and thanks for being specific with your concerns. I agree on the first two points. For the first, maybe we could just delete "unfair." On the second point, your proposal seems good. As to the third, the source of the "systematic use of violence" is the Washington Post, not Falun Gong practitioners. If you find other issues of this nature, please point them out. Homunculus (duihua) 16:32, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

I fixed the first two (I actually think it is better to keep the introductions bland, so I chose "campaign" over "persecution." The third point only appears in quotes and is sourced to WaPo so I think it is OK. For the record I had not read the lead (I actually still didn't read it now) and was not aware of this obviously biased language. The Sound and the Fury (talk) 18:52, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

"systematic use of violence...the sources said" - The WP attributes it, although paraphrased, to their sources, which are stated in the previous paragraph as being "according to government sources and Falun Gong practitioners." I have not read the article yet, not really interested/knowledgeable in the topic, really I hate wikipedia, the vast majority of social topics are highly POV pushing. Unique Ubiquitous (talk) 19:34, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

And uh, what are the other POV concerns and how may they be fixed? Specific sentences or sections that need attention is helpful ("blatant propaganda piece" is, unfortunately, not actionable). The Sound and the Fury (talk) 18:55, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Facts.org.cn

This website is cited three times in this article: once for direct Chinese government propaganda , one for a Reuters article and once in the external links section. I believe the first should be purged because the source is unreliable and a hate/propaganda site; I believe the second should refer simply to the Reuters articles without linking to facts.org.cn's version, which by hosting it is probably perpetrating copyright infringement; and I believe the link should be removed from the EL section according to item 2 of WP:ELNO ("Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research, except to a limited extent in articles about the viewpoints that the site is presenting") and the copyright abuse issue mentioned above. If there are no objections I will do this soon. TheSoundAndTheFury (talk) 20:14, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I notice this page has an external link to this website. This website claimed itself on its homepage as a civilian anti FG website. However, one government document Main points to prevent cult showed this Facts.org.cn was created and run by 6-10_Office in the name of civilian organization. The document mentioned all governments at province, municipality and county level had listed submission to fact.org.cn as an evaluation objective for Leading cadres. Also one branch of CCP's Politics and Law Committee Awarding policy regarding propaganda work had a policy that urged staff to submit articles for this website and claimed each article with 500 words and more) would be awarded 500 RMB and each article with less words would be awarded 400 RMB. It seems that 6-10 office used such a fake web not only for attacking FG and but also generating high incomes for themselves from tax payers. I suggest the external link to such fake web should not be included in this page. Marvin 2009 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:16, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Inappropriate balance

I think this article have an inappropriate balance because contains few announcement of then Chinese Government but opinions from Falun Gong are widely used in this article, this reaches an inappropriate balance and I think if this problem are not fixed, this article shouldn't be marked as "Featured Article".--A20120312 (talk) 22:24, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

The above editor nominated this article for FAR minutes after making this comment. This is not enough time to allow for discussion and article improvements, and such time is required per step one of the FAR process. Due to this, the review is currently on hold, pending discussion and/or improvement. If such is not forthcoming, the review may be reinitiated after at least a week. Dana boomer (talk) 23:44, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

This issue of 'what is the appropriate degree of balance' has been addressed endlessly on the talk page. If you wish to pick up the discussion again---and by all means, you may---please do so with reference to previous discussion. The best answer to the question of the appropriate degree of balance was given here: . The diff contains the full text of the section from David Ownby's book dedicated to retelling this story. Ownby is arguably the leading scholar on this, and his treatment serves as the best guide we have to what is due weight. The article currently follows his narrative quite closely in terms of structure, weight, and balance (though ours is more detailed). If you would like to respond to that in specific, please go ahead. But rather than broad claims, discussion is most helpful when focused around specific facts, statements, views, or sources that are missing. May I suggest that if this discussion is to continue, it focus on center on specific problems identified, or specific suggestions for improvement. TheSoundAndTheFury (talk) 01:18, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

The death cause of Liu Siying

As mentioned in the page "Twelve million children submitted writings disapproving of the practice" , I learned this is related to Liu Siying's death. Though the state media said she died of heart condition (it is suspicious), in Children textbook her death was blamed on self-immolation. I think the death cause of liu Siying should be one of the important topics in this page. Since it was almost not touched, I added the following content in the Falun Gong's Response section. Today I found it was deleted due to "primary source FLG material". The section title is Falun Gong Response, I feel FLG source should be acceptable. Is it right? The content I added was too long. Can anyone help summarize it? Thanks in advance.

"World Organization for the Investigation Persecution of Falun Gong (WOIPFG) exhibited the testimony of a doctor from Jishuitan Hospital where Liu Siying stayed before she died. The doctor claimed that Liu Siying's death is very suspicious and said, "Liu Siying's burn treatment was about completed, and her body had basically recovered to its normal state. She had already decided to leave the hospital. In light of these circumstances her death appears very suspicious." The doctor disclosed, on March 16, the day before she died, that the hospital did a comprehensive check up on Liu and found her condition to be completely normal. The hospital doctor also confirmed that on that morning of the day when Liu Siying died "Jishuitan Hospital staff and the Beijing Medical Administration Department's director even conversed with her, and at that time, Liu Siying's health was still normal". "WOIPFG points to the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) as a suspect of single handedly directing the "Tiananmen Square Self-immolation" and murdering potential informers". World Organization to Investigate the Persecution of Falun Gong. Retrieved 13 October 2012.

Falun Gong Minghui website reported that Liu Siying was denied for family visitation and died Mysteriously. It said "the authorities did not allow any reporters other than those from Xinhua News Agency to interview 12-year-old Siying, nor did they allow any of her family members to visit. They even threatened her grandmother, to such an extent that the elderly woman was terrified to be interviewed by any reporters. During the period of time right before she died, including Friday, March 16, 2001, one day before her death, Liu Siying’s electrocardiogram (EKG) and other tests all showed normal results. Then, on Saturday, March 17, 2001, between 11:00 a.m. and 12:00 p.m., doctors suddenly discovered that Liu Siying was in critical condition. She died shortly afterwards. In addition, on the morning of March 17, 2001, between 8:00 and 9:00 a.m., the head of the Jishuitan Hospital and the head of the Beijing City Medical Administration Division paid a visit to Liu Siying at her hospital room and talked to her for quite a long time. At that time, Liu Siying was still quite animated and active. The autopsy of Liu Siying took place at the Jishuitan Hospital, but the autopsy report was issued by the Emergency Center. In addition, the autopsy report didn’t disclose any discussion of the case. It only made a general statement that her death was likely due to problems with her myocardium." Before Liu Siying's death, the state media never mentioned Liu Siying had any heart conditions. Falun Gong practitioners analyzed that "among the people accused of self-immolation, Liu Siying is the person who was most likely to divulge the secrets because she was so young that the threats would not have been as effective as they would be used on the adults. The adults could be sentenced to jail or isolated from the outside world, at least temporarily. But Liu Siying was under the legal age of being detained. Therefore, to detain her publicly would have an extremely negative impact, but releasing her would leave them vulnerable that she might speak-out, and let the truth be known. The only way to guarantee her silence and avoid divulging any secrets to the public was to kill her." "54 Facts That Reveal How the "Self-Immolation" on Tiananmen Square Was Actually Staged for Propaganda Purposes - Part 2". Falun Dafa Minghui.org. Retrieved 13 October 2012." Marvin 2009 (talk) 03:20, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

It's fine to have some primary sources used appropriately to describe FLG's response, but this is not just FLG's response. This is presenting new evidence, and passing it off as facts, without stating where that information came from. I guess that's probably why it was removed (that and it's really long). Just to give one example, how does Falun Dafa Minghui know that the head of the Jishuitan Hospital visited Siying just before her death? We can't give this angle more emphasis than what good, independent sources give it, but if you think it isn't given enough weight and need help figuring out what to write, maybe I could look into it.TheBlueCanoe (talk) 04:06, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for your reply. It seems that Minghui got the information from WOIPFG's Jishuitan Hospital Medical Personnel Investigative Report. WOIPEF mentioned that this report was kept confidential for the purpose of protecting witness, but WOIPFG is willing to provide it to international criminal courts) . There were so many different issues involved in this case, so maybe other independent organization simply did not notice Li Siying's death cause report from WOIPFG. If you can help make a simple summary, that will be great. Marvin 2009 (talk) 11:15, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately I did not have the time to closely examine this and pick out the key parts. How about this, Marvin2009: summarize the key point you would like to get across in the above, in about three sentences. That will save us some time, then we can add it to the article. It was far too long as it stood, especially introducing these important factual claims as a primary source. Please summarize the most important point in a few sentences, and if there are no objections we can include. TheSoundAndTheFury (talk) 01:52, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your advice. I would like to sum it up as below. Please feel free to modify. Thank you.

The cause of the death of Liu Siying was highly suspicious. WOIPFG exhibited the following testimony from one of medical staff who treated her in Jishuitan Hospital: during the period of time right before she died, including March 16 one day before her death, Liu Siying’s electrocardiogram (EKG) and other tests all showed normal results; On March 17 between 8 am to 9 am when the head of the Jishuitan Hospital and the head of the Beijing City Medical Administration Division paid a visit to Liu Siying at her hospital room and talked to her for quite a long time, Liu Siying was still quite animated and active; On March 17 between 11am to 12pm, doctors suddenly discovered that Liu Siying was in critical condition and She died shortly afterwards. Marvin 2009 (talk) 21:55, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

There's a sentence in there that says "The documentary also addresses the medical treatment and ultimate death of Liu’s 12-year-old daughter." Just build on that. Something like "The documentary also says that Liu's 12-year-old daughter died under unusual circumstances in hospital, noting that she was recovering well before dying suddenly on March 17th. Some Falun Gong sources argue that she may have been killed by the government as a way of guaranteeing her silence." Is that good? And would the government have any response to that allegation that should be noted? TheBlueCanoe 01:37, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks to The BlueCanoe. I cannot find any response from CCP media to such an allegation from WOIPFG. However, some inconsistency could be found between CCP media's March 3rd news (2 weeks before she died)Jishuitan Hospital's 39 days Rescuing and CCP media's March 18th news (the 2nd day after Liu died )Liu Siying's Sudden Death. In March 3rd news, a reporter from Health Newspaper wrote: Liu Siying was relatively stable after over one month treatment and there was no serious Complication. No mentioning any heart conditions. In March 19th news (2 days after she died), the head of Jishuitan Hospital said: Liu Siying in the past had a Myocarditis history and had never been healed. After she was sent to the hospital on January 23, the burn was cured through medical staff's great effort, but Liu Siying's heart function had been out of the way all the time and her heart rate had been at about 140-170 times per minute. In response to these two news, one mainland medical doctor argued (on April 5 2001's Minghui news Liu Siying really died due to Cardiogenic sudden death?) the the hospital head's words 'Liu Siying's heart function had been out of the way all the time and her heart rate had been at about 140-170 times per minute for over one month' showed Liu Siying experienced serious Complication, which could lead to death anytime, because ... If so , how could the mainland media said on March 3rd there was no serious Complication happened to Liu Siying. The doctor also questioned why the hospital and any mainland media never mentioned Liu's Myocarditis history (and it was never healed) before her death when many Chinese had been very concerned about Liu Siying's health. The doctor deduced that the answer was simple, the 'stage' was temporarily built for covering up Liu's real death cause. Marvin 2009 (talk) 12:36, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

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