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"Breast Cancer Awareness" article and talk page

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Breast cancer awareness (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Charles35 (talk · contribs)
• WLU (talk · contribs)
• WhatamIdoing (talk · contribs)
• GabrielF (talk · contribs)
• Biosthmors (talk · contribs)
• Quiddity (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

In short, the dispute is over 2 paragraphs that mention an "inner circle" of breast cancer awareness supporters. The article portrays awareness is an extremely negative light, making supporters seem like they are working secretly with pharmaceutical companies and have cunning agendas to actually cause more breast cancer so it will not "deplete their future supply of volunteers" (however, I am not disputing these since they are sourced and thus technically valid). All that I am disputing is "inner circle", which asserts that through "extended suffering of chemotherapy and radiation", women are "initiate into the inner circle of the breast cancer awareness culture." This is presented as fact, violating WP:NPOV in my opinion. However, it is followed with a quote of the material that actually shows that it is in fact a metaphor. But if the quote were to be removed, the material would nonetheless violate NPOV. Of course, I believe the material should be removed due to it violating WP:UNDUE. It is a long (full paragraph) quote elaborating on a bizarre metaphor comparing women with breast cancer to initiates in a tribe going through circumcision rituals.

There are many issues currently being debated about the article, but I'd like to focus on 2. For convenience, I like to call them "alcohol" and "inner circle". These issues involve two pieces of material in the article "Breast cancer awareness". Both pieces of material are cited. The objections state that the material violates wikipedia policies including but not limited to: WP:INTEGRITY, WP:NPOV, WP:UNDUE, WP:TONE, WP:OR, and WP:V.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

These issues have been discussed extensively on the "Breast cancer awareness" talk page. There are entire sections about each. See sections "Inner circle", ""might contribute to" "cause" etc.", and "Shopping for the Cure".

How do you think we can help?

We can help resolve this dispute by coming to a consensus about the material. On the talk pages, we have so far failed, and it only seems to be growing further and further away from a consensus. I'm hoping that new opinions might be able to lead us on a better track.

Objections to material

Alcohol

Inner circle

The second issue, "inner circle", involves WP:DUE, WP:TONE, and WP:NPOV. The objection is that the metaphor does not deserve 2 full paragraphs, 1 of which is a quote, especially because of its strong bias. The material speaks of an "inner circle" of the BCA culture. It at one point mentioned Elizabeth Edwards, but that contentious material about a living person was removed. The objection says that "inner circle" is all but conspiratorial and demonizes innocent victims of a tragic disease. I have argued that the claim undermines the integrity and reliability of wikipedia and taints the article with extremely radical and immature views.

The paragraphs:

Breast cancer culture values and honors suffering, selecting its she-roes by a "misery quotient". Women whose treatment requires less suffering feel excluded and devalued. The suffering, particularly the extended suffering of months of chemotherapy and radiation treatment, forms a type of ordeal or rite of passage that initiates women into the inner circle of the breast cancer culture. Barbara Ehrenreich says:

Understood as a rite of passage, breast cancer resembles the initiation rites so exhaustively studied by Mircea Eliade: First there is the selection of the initiates -- by age in the tribal situation, by mammogram or palpation here. Then come the requisite ordeals -- scarification or circumcision within traditional cultures, surgery and chemotherapy for the cancer patient. Finally, the initiate emerges into a new and higher status -- an adult and a warrior -- or in the case of breast cancer, a "survivor." (Ehrenreich 2001) Charles35 (talk) 20:37, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Further explanation of issue:

The article takes a critical (both in terms of criticism and critical theory) sociological approach to breast cancer awareness, which I consider undue weight because it takes up the majority of the article. The form of this is for the most part a metanarrative, or "grand storyline" if you are familiar with sociology terms. A "grand storyline" is a feature of sociological theories first seen in Marxism. It is criticized for being a rash generalization, unsupported by empirical evidence, and essentially fictional. This is condemned by contemporary sociologists such as Goffman and Michel Foucault for being archaic and overly simplistic.

The inner circle is the best example of a fictional grand storyline in the entire article. This is because it is simply a metaphor. As you can see from the quote, breast cancer awareness (BCA) culture is being likened to primitive (for lack of a better word) human tribes. Chemotherapy and surgery are compared to scarification and circumcision rituals. It considers innocent victims of a, let's not forget, fatal and tragic disease to "initiates" this tribe to be "initiated" into the "inner circle" of BCA. Bizarre, right? And is 2 full paragraphs (one of which is exclusively a quotation) due weight? In my opinion, no.

I also object to the term aside from the context of the quote (since, I assume the quote will likely be removed, leaving just the material). The term is conspiratorial and undermines the integrity and reliability (in a non-wikipedia sense of the term) of this article. It is extremely ridiculous, bogus, bizarre, etc. There is no "inner circle" of cunning conniving evil victims of breast cancer. The rest of the article implies that the awareness organizations work with pharmaceutical companies to cause breast cancer to be more prevalent in order to make money. "Inner circle" is the icing on the cake, so to speak. Examples of text that support this implied yet never explicitly stated include:

Charles35 (talk) 19:31, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Resolution?

Okay so since no one has anything to say, I guess we should go ahead with deleting inner circle as undue weight and changing alcohol to linked to???? Charles35 (talk) 18:29, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

After starting a DRN case, we need to wait 2 to 5 days for the other parties to provide opening statements. Then one or more volunteers will mediate and provide comments at the bottom in the "discussion" section. Discussion usually lasts 3 to 10 days. Then the DRN case will be over and action can be taken in accordance with the resolution. --Noleander (talk) 20:44, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Minor point of fact: Elizabeth Edwards is dead. She died two years ago. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:53, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

WP:BDP. Two years isn't that long in my opinion. The text was still malicious and no source mentioned her. Charles35 (talk) 17:22, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

BDP is normally applied to people who died within the last few days or weeks, not a couple of years ago.

As for it being "malicious", you can ask the person who added it, but I suspect that it was meant as a tribute. Edwards is widely considered a positive role model for women with breast cancer. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:39, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Opening comments by WLU

Though there are certainly issues on the BCA page, the two cited here seem like they would far better be dealt with through a request for comment. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 20:31, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

The WP:DRN process is an alternative to the WP:RFC process. They both have situations where they work better. Sometimes, after a DRN case, a follow-on RFC is initiated. But once an editor has opened a DRN case, asking DRN volunteers to give their opinions (and mediate) it is appropriate to follow the DRN process through to its conclusion. WP:Forum shopping and all that. An RFC can be performed after the DRN if the DRN does not result in a decent resolution. --Noleander (talk) 20:42, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Just a quick note to mention that sometimes a case may be filed here that is not at the right venue. If this is the decision of volunteers the case can be closed early and a suggestion given to the proper venue to use. RFC could well be the proper venue for some cases and perhaps even this case, but for the moment all evidence seems to point to DR/N as the correct venue so far.--Amadscientist (talk) 21:34, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

From my perspective, Charles doesn't seem to like the fact that the page spends large amounts of space criticizing the BCA movement for being emotionally harmful, ineffective at actually preventing breast cancer and involving considerable co-option and conflicts of interest by various companies who use it as a form of marketing. These points are made in highly reliable sources by experts in the field, and I do not believe there is a valid reason to remove them, though wording, attribution and other means that do not involve outright removal can certainly be used to adjust emphasis so long as the intent of the sources is not distorted.

I'll re-iterate my previous opposition to the idea that we can discount a reliable source because of general criticisms of sociological theory that never mentions BCA specifically, that I have no opposition to reliable sources criticizing the sources in question being integrated, and that I have no opposition to the page being expanded with positive information on BCA. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 01:21, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

This isn't about other issues with the article, or about our recent conversation about sociological theory, which was just that - a conversation. Had I wanted to delete material, I would have done it and then given justifications in edit summaries. But that wasn't my intention. I wanted to discuss it. These other issues you are bringing up are 100% irrelevant. My purpose for quoting the other passages from the article was not because I'd like the remove them. All that I want to remove is inner circle. I only quoted them to support my argument that the inner circle is the "icing on the cake" for the conspiracy that is implied in this article. Without it, the rest is moderately acceptable, and will do for now (ie we'll worry about that when we get there). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Charles35 (talk • contribs) 17:30, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Re: "Without it, the rest is moderately acceptable, and will do for now (ie we'll worry about that when we get there)." - I think we'd be better off coming to an understanding of where the article should be headed overall, rather than discussing the wording of a specific paragraph or two (which will just result in us coming back here again, when the next paragraph/change is disputed). - What you say above is quite different from what you said two days ago, "The content over there is reaching psychotic level. It is honestly pathological. The article is an overwhelming rant against awareness." - Hopefully the DR/N volunteers can provide some guidance, as to what would be more useful. –Quiddity (talk) 22:14, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

^This quote came from my talk page, where I can say what I want. It wasn't uncivil. Neither Quiddity, WhatamIdoing, or WLU were involved there and it was a semi-private conversation. Quiddity, please do not Attempt to label me or otherwise discredit my opinion based on that my associations rather than the core of my argument.

Actually, you can't say whatever you want on your talk page. See WP:UP#OWN. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:42, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm stil of the opinion that the page is best dealt with via a RFC or series of them, but I have no issue if the DRN volunteers are willing to provide a comparable service. I don't think any wikipedia page has ever been served by deciding in a final POV and working towards it, in my experience the neutrality of a page is best addressed by finding and integrating reliable sources rather than editors deciding on what a "neutral" version is and discarding sources on that basis. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 15:49, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Opening comments by WhatamIdoing

I think we can summarize this locus of this dispute in very few characters: "There are multiple experienced editors working on that article, and none of them agree with Charles35's POV."

There, that's just 108 characters. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:58, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

:-) Funny, but we need to assume that the "minority" editor may have a point. Perhaps the best resolution is between the two viewpoints? In any case, DRN volunteers would appreciate your opinons on the merits of the issues. --Noleander (talk) 20:38, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

All things are possible; some are less likely than others. Last I checked, Charles wanted to say that treatment "initiates women through the breast cancer culture" (emphasis added), which we might call a creative phrasing. It is unlikely that the best resolution is halfway between a literate use of the prepositional verb in question and his suggestion.

Additionally, his concern about the phrase, as stated on the talk page today, is, "I don't trust readers to understand that you don't mean there is a conspiracy of a group of evil connivig cunning BCA-ers." I believe it is the general practice at the English Misplaced Pages to write articles under the assumption that our readers are not gullible idiots. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:45, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Okay, thanks for the reply. To clarify: there are two alternative texts:

1. "forms a type of ordeal or rite of passage that initiates women into the inner circle of the breast cancer culture... "
2. "forms a type of ordeal or rite of passage that initiates women through the breast cancer culture ..."

and the issue is which text is more grammatical, and more consistent with the source(s). Is that correct? --Noleander (talk) 22:05, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes. (I have added five words to the end of the first quotation to be more complete.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:26, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

NO. Not at all! The issue is not about grammar. It is about WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE. Charles35 (talk) 18:16, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

The differences between the two sentences are not merely grammatical. Do you agree that the dispute is between these two sentences? WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:50, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

I just wanted to be clear so that no fresh opinions of uninvolved editors are skewed by what WhatamIdoing just said. Just because I am the only one that has expressed concern does not mean that my concern is invalid or that there is a true "consensus" on the talk page. Charles35 (talk) 20:47, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't have made a joke like that if I didn't trust the editors here to be able to make up their minds independently. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:45, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Just be aware that if all policy, guidelines and procedures are in line and only one editor is objecting to content, it may well be a rough consensus if the reasoning of the one is not justyfied.--Amadscientist (talk) 21:53, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

WhatamIdoing, please stop bringing outside arguments into this. Thanks. When you said you trust readers, you meant that you trust them to realize that there is no actual circle (ie a curved line). I said that is ridiculous, but that based on the text, it isn't farfetched to assume that some readers might think there is a conspiracy going on. This only applies to the case in which the quote is removed, because the quote makes it clear that it is a metaphor.

Which leads me to the next point. Amadscientist - I do not believe this is in accordance with the policies. I believe that the full paragraph quote is WP:UNDUE. It is simply bizarre. Awareness is like a tribe? With circumcision rituals? Seriously? That is one of the most bizarre things I've ever heard. Even without the quote, it is undue in my opinion as it is no longer making a bizarre metaphor. Without the quote, it is no longer presented as a metaphor. It is still bizarre, but now it is a claim (which is in reality a metaphor) and is presented as a fact.

I also think it doesn't meet WP:NPOV. Without the quote, the text states the metaphor as a fact (which is worse than stating an opinion as fact). It is also judgmental, and doesn't indicate the prominence of opposing views. WhatamIdoing and WLU are "requiring" that all material added to the article must address the material that is already there. If I don't find a source that says that there is in fact no inner circle of the breast cancer culture, then there's nothing I can do. This is, obviously, impossible, as no other source talks about such a conspiracy or addresses such a bizarre metaphor. So I am left to come here to DRN. Charles35 (talk) 17:44, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

It is stated that readers are smart enough to know that FRINGE ideas are nonsense without including any negative or critical material or sources - a key sign of NPOV problems. Charles35 (talk) 01:06, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

It is the nature of a metaphor that it is presented "as a fact", that is, equating two things. That's how metaphors work. If you say "Cancer treatment is a journey", then you have a metaphor. If you say "Cancer treatment is like a journey", then you have a simile, rather than a metaphor.

What matters here is that we have sources talking about suffering initiating women into something. They are not initiated into the broad cancer culture. They are initiated into a small, select, exclusive part of that culture. IMO the phrase inner circle describes that part of the culture just as well as any other phrase. I'm open to alternatives, but you haven't ever proposed any. You just assert that our readers are too gullible to know that there isn't a vast, evil conspiracy by cancer patients. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:50, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Opening comments by GabrielF

Opening comments by Biosthmors

Opening comments by Quiddity

The overall dispute seems to be, that Charles35 objects to the quantity/balance of criticism in the entire article (He recently said it was "extremely unbalanced"). He believes the article should have less detailed information on specific aspects (which he has repeatedly described as "radical" and "conspiratorial"), and more details on the accomplishments/benefits of the BCA movement (which no-one objects to, but no-one has done the work of researching/writing about). Here's a specific example where he describes the problem as he sees it.

I believe he started off wanting to delete the entire article and start over (in late October), and has since then adjusted his perspective significantly. However he still believes that some of the ideas summarized in the article are utterly inappropriate, and should be removed completely. That is what DRN might be able to help with (by either substantiating his perspective, or by explaining to him what aspects he might need to reconsider). Hope that helps, I can provide more diffs or thoughts if requested. –Quiddity (talk) 23:53, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Okay, as you can tell, I joined wikipedia in late October. I was not aware of how things worked. Pardon me. My arguments have changed over time. Let's not ad hominemically talk about Charles, please. Let's focus on the material. As you can see, that diff is from November 10th, only about 2 weeks after I joined. It is now December 7, an entire month later and over 6 weeks since I've joined. How about we focus on the material and the current arguments, not try to undermine my qualification by quoting diffs from a month ago. That isn't going to get us anywhere. We are talking about inner circle. Bringing up these irrelevant arguments is only distracting us from the point, something done by just about every post since we've started:

-Elizabeth Edwards (WhatamIdoing)

-request for comment (WLU)

-sociological theory conversations brought up about metanarratives violating WP:TONE that are irrelevant to this (WLU)

-summing up this issue in 108 chars with "Charles doesn't know what he's talking about; we do." (WhamamIdoing)

Let's stop talking about editors, and start talking about edits. All that this is doing is distracting us from the issue. Why do you guys have such a difficult time talking about anything related to this issue, and why do you continually avoid and divert it to discussions about editors? I am afraid that distractions will just lead us off topic and lead to this dispute being closed. You guys don't want that to happen, do you? Charles35 (talk) 17:57, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Sometimes the issue at DR/N is the history of objections made by the editor. This is really not a dscussion of you, persay, but the history of your objections and editing on the article. That is fair to discuss if not about conduct or behavior and sticks to the content issue. However it is sometimes best to speak in the third person at DR/N as to not make it look like a PA.--Amadscientist (talk) 21:27, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Okay, but all that we need to focus on here is inner circle. It's the only reason we're here. So far, nobody except for me has said anything about inner circle. The editors have not defended it, and no volunteers have commented on it, likely due to the fact that nobody is really talking about it. Let's not distract the conversation away from the actual point here. All that we are trying to accomplish is the inner circle. That's it. But as you can see, we have effectively been distracted, intentional or not. I am not commenting on the actions of other editors. All I'm saying is that we have been distracted from the actual point, and that I'd like to get back on topic - Amadscientist, do you have any thoughts regarding the inner circle issue?

Quiddity, you say that if we don't address all these other issues, we'll end up right back in DRN. Well, if we do address all those issues, we won't accomplish anything! We have come here to focus on one issue and actually get something done in a timely manner. If we start bringing up all these other issues, all that will happen is DRN will turn into the BCA talk page, which is the exact reason that we have left the talk page. I don't want that, and neither do you (I assume). Talking about all these irrelevant things is just clouding the issue. Please do not comment unless it is talking about inner circle. That is the reason we're here. Let's not turn DRN into the BCA talk page. Charles35 (talk) 23:27, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Quiddity is not required to focus on the one detail that you currently want to focus on. Sometimes a big-picture perspective is more helpful than focusing on details. WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:04, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

"Breast Cancer Awareness" article and talk page discussion

Hi, I'm Ebe123, an volunteer at DRN. Please trim the opening statement to 2000 characters. I am not opening discussion right now. ~~Ebe123~~ → report 20:37, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi Ebel23. Please see talk page section "Breast Cancer Awareness" article and talk page. Charles35 (talk) 20:49, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Charles35, reduce your opening statement to less than 2000 characters. If you continue to persist in adding content, there is the possibility that this filing will be closed. The discussion is still not opened. Do not post in this section until one of the volunteers invites discussion. Hasteur (talk) 20:54, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Hello, I am Amadscientist, a volunteer here on the DR/N notice board. Charles35 was asked by this volunteer to give more detail on the dispute from the simple statement originally posted. As the filing editor was concerned about the character limit, I have given the editor permission to go past the limit. Do not close this case just for their going over the limit as they were asked to do so if it was needed. Please see the DR/N talkpage. Thanks!--Amadscientist (talk) 21:24, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes, if the case originator was given permission to exceed the limit, of course we should let it slide. On the other hand, I'm still trying to grasp what the precise issue is. It would be nice if one of the parties, in their opening statement, could give a simple, plain summary of the issue(s) that is understandable to outsiders. --Noleander (talk) 22:07, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

I didn't understand it from the short version and am still not entirely clear on the issue now. Perhaps another opening will clarify or Charles may read over his opening and see areas to improve on. Right now I can only assume this is an editor that has not had their contributions stand after discussion on the talkpage of the article. If the consensus of editors there is appropriate and within policy, this may just not be the correct venue but may indeed be a case for RFC.--Amadscientist (talk) 22:24, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

I changed it. I hope that is more clear. Charles35 (talk) 18:17, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Lets go ahead and begin the discussion. Charles, if you could, I wonder if a brief description of what you feel is needed to the article would be a good beginning. Is there any sort of compromise to the content you feel would be acceptable by the involved parties?

Okay. The inner circle problem can be broken down into 2 pieces - the quote, and the text. The quote is a paragraph long and is making a bizarre metaphor relating cancer victims to barbaric circumcision and blood rituals. It's degrading, inappropriate, and violates WP:UNDUE/WP:NPOV. I think that this should be removed, no question.

While I do oppose all talk of a conspiracy-like inner circle of awareness supporters, in the spirit of compromise/consensus, I think this might be appropriate:

1) the quote must be removed.

2) the text must identify the idea as a metaphor, and attribute it by stating the person's name in addition to the inline citation (to put extra emphasis because the article uses inline citations, so it appears no different from any other sentence without attributing it in the text). This is very important - the idea CANNOT be displayed as a fact.

3) the text cannot use the term "inner circle". It sounds conspiratorial. The source does not use it. I think that "rite of passage" is okay. The source uses it. And it fits with the metaphor.

I think that with those 3 conditions, the text will not lend undue weight to a bizarre metaphor, it will not be misleading in stating the idea as a fact, and it will not sound conspiratorial. Charles35 (talk) 01:23, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

WLU made a revision that identified the idea as a metaphor in the text. I don't see that as making any difference because the quote identifies it as a metaphor anyway. Then I edited it more, removing the quote, keeping WLU's identification of the metaphor, and removing inner circle. To me, that makes the material acceptable. WLU reverted my edit, but didn't give any reason in the edit summary. WLU - can you let me know the reason now? What exactly did you not like about my edit / those 3 conditions? Charles35 (talk) 19:59, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Unless and until the other participants decide to weigh in, this may likely go stale. For the most part this was a one against many situation and was opened by another volunteer who weighed in by posting. This happens often and can make participants feel as if the case was ready for DR/N, when it may well be that no one is interested enough to make this a real dispute. I will leave a message on the article talkpage to ping involved parties but if no one posts there is little we can work with. If any other volunteer has more to add, please feel free.--Amadscientist (talk) 04:11, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

I think it was appropriate to include the quotation, which said:

"Understood as a rite of passage, breast cancer resembles the initiation rites so exhaustively studied by Mircea Eliade: First there is the selection of the initiates -- by age in the tribal situation, by mammogram or palpation here. Then come the requisite ordeals -- scarification or circumcision within traditional cultures, surgery and chemotherapy for the cancer patient. Finally, the initiate emerges into a new and higher status -- an adult and a warrior -- or in the case of breast cancer, a "survivor.""

As for inner circle, Charles is invited to explain how he would describe the "new and higher status" that women are initiated into. I thought that "women are initiated into the inner circle of the culture" was a reasonable and standard description of the idea (by "standard", I mean that the exact quoted phrase "initiated into the inner circle" gets more than 100K ghits and appears in several hundred books, so it's a pretty common phrase that ought to be recognized by any fluent English speaker).

Charles—and Charles alone, as far as I can tell—thinks that saying they're initiated into an inner circle sounds like some sort of evil conspiracy. But he's not been forthcoming with alternatives. If he's got sensible alternatives to offer, I'd like to hear them.

("Inner circle" appears in other sources cited in the article.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:01, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

I do not see "inner circle" as conspiratorial, I see it as an evocative description of entry into the most respected and revered area of a culture. Yes, conspiracy theories and secret societies can be described as having an "inner circle", but so can nearly any organization where trust, history and respect impact the social capital held by members. Ehrenreich's quote initially wasn't there, and Charles disputed the text on the basis that the "rite of passage" and other prose was not verified by the sources. I added the quote, which verified the information, and have been replacing it because I think it again is evocative - I don't think I could come up with a summary that is anywhere near the quality of the original material. In addition, the use of the quote firmly places the term "inner circle" in the context of initiation rites - not comspiracies. I think it's good writing, quoted in an appropriate place, that illustrates a valuable point about the culture of BCA. I have read Charles' objections, and find them all less compelling than the quote itself. This is an issue that could be addressed by a request for comment. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 15:59, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Talk:Mobile operating system

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Mobile operating system (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Davidkmartin (talk · contribs)
• Smartmo (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

User Smartmo (talk • contribs) (know known as 217.30.64.34 (talk) ) keeps posting failed predictions of International Data Corporation on Mobile operating system. He also deletes other analysts predictions that he does not like. He did edit-warring for a while before he got blocked, but continues again.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

An incident was filled: Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive776#User:Smartmo_keeps_putting_WP:CRYSTALBALL_failed_predictions_on_Mobile_operating_system that blocked Smartmo (talk • contribs) for some days but he is back using an IP address.

I also tried to request page protection: Misplaced Pages:Requests for page protection/Rolling archive but I was suggested to continue to discuss.

How do you think we can help?

By trying again to make him understand that Misplaced Pages needs to have a neutral point of view. That he cannot use Misplaced Pages for his own interests. And it that fails block his account again and protect Mobile operating system.

Opening comments by Smartmo

Talk:Mobile operating system discussion

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