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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Ubikwit (talk | contribs) at 17:27, 14 December 2012 (→List of Indigenous Peoples, Evildoer187). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Jews/Israelis

Jews and Israelis are not exactly what most would consider to be an "irrelevant" or minor part of West Asia. You can't just cut them out, at least not without consulting the talk page first. Overall, they best fit in the West Asian category on the grounds that Israel is located in Western Asia, and that most Jewish groups are part of a larger diaspora with origins in the Fertile Crescent.69.248.98.23 (talk) 23:33, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

First, I hope you didn't get me wrong, I changed your edits on that article not because of some sinister motives or anything, I just don't understand why you insist Israel should take such focus in that section and not, say, Lebanon, or Lebanese-Americans and their identity? Or why not simply Middle Eastern countries in general, without focusing so much on a single one. Also, you insist to have very large focus on American Jews in that section - why? 'Israel' is a country, but 'Jewish' is not a country, most of them immigrated from Eastern/Western/Central European countries and thus were registered as such - European immigrants. They are not a monolithic group, some of them are even descendants of other Americans who converted, for example. In other words, I think American Jews shouldn't be in that section at all, the majority of them didn't immigrate to America from Middle Eastern countries. And please don't reply with anything about genetics, like I see you do in many of your other edits: the American census from what I know doesn't check your chromosomes and genes to determine what you really are or where your ancestors came from 2,000 years ago. If, say, Irish-Americans will be found to have some Middle Eastern genes, will you also remove them from European-American category and add them to West Asian-American section? Yuvn86 (talk) 13:55, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Israel/Jews should take at least some of the focus in that section, because the Middle East is much more than just the Arab/Muslim world. They are distinct, albeit still a major part of the history of that region. It doesn't make sense to include them in the European category, because many Jews aren't even European at all (for instance, Mizrahi Jews), whereas most (not all) Jewish groups share a tie and ultimate origin in the Middle East. Would you call someone who is clearly of Asian/African descent who got off the boat from Europe to be a "European/white American"? Would you call a non-Cherokee/Choctaw/etc American citizen a native American? You can't compare a long displaced diasporic population like Jews to Irish people, either. They are hardly the same thing.69.248.98.23 (talk) 01:18, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm not a professor of Jewish history and I'm pretty sure you're not either. All I say is that it sounds like hard bigotry to post that if someone has lived in Europe for centuries, yet this someone has a Jewish mother, then somehow he's not really European. And I gave Irish People as an example because if you read that article, it says they are a large diaspora group with a large majority of people claiming to be of Irish descent not being born in Ireland. So it's not like only Jews were nomads like you maybe seem to indicate.

I don't post here on Misplaced Pages much anymore, but what I see with you is an IP editor, not even a registered user, who often adds his own personal opinions to articles on Jewish matters, which is OK if sourced (I used to edit about Jewish matters too years ago), but you're not adding anything relevant about Jewish history or religion or culture, you just seem to, again, add your personal opinions, with most of your edits being very strange, almost all of them are about how they are really 'Asian' and not 'European', like a strange obsession with this issue. I'm just wondering if you are Jewish yourself, or do you belong to some extremist group out there? in any case your edits here seem to belong more to a message board with users posting their opinions than to an online encyclopedia.(Yuvn86 (talk) 03:03, 26 October 2012 (UTC))

I was trying to say that Jews as a people are collectively not European (at least, not indigenous Europeans), as it is well known by this point that they originally come from the Middle East. Your point about "living in Europe for centuries" is baffling. For instance, if one's family has lived in America for centuries, but has no Native American ancestry, would you consider them indigenous to America? There is no expiration date on indigeneity. And again, you're ignoring Jews who are not of Ashkenazi or Sephardi descent and under no circumstances could ever be considered "European". And regarding Irish people....huh? The reason it's called the Irish diaspora is because they all trace back to one place: Ireland. The Jewish diaspora, on the other hand, traces back to Israel, which is clearly not in Europe.69.248.98.23 (talk) 11:01, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Of course that Israel is the Jewish homeland. But what I meant is that you can't cancel centuries of living in different European lands for both the Ashkenazi and Sephardi and in many ways inluencing and being influenced by different cultures and peoples there, otherwise you are editing your own personal or political opinions. It's like you are saying that Jews are aliens that don't belong anywhere, and you decide yourself what they really are. It just doesn't work this way, see WP:NPOV. By the way, there are nations in Europe who aren't of the Indo-European language groups, such as the Hungarians, Basques, Finns. Some of them came from Asian mountains to Europe. Yet I don't think anyone today calls them Asian people. Yuvn86 (talk) 12:12, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

I just ran across this while working on Gutzon Borglum. "All Bankers were bad, as far as Borglum was concerned, but the worst were the Jewish bankers of New York, with their European heritage, Wall Street connections and . .....". Even the anti-semite Borglum recognized their European roots. Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 23:04, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

And centuries of living in Europe does not cancel out their collective origins in the Middle East, which is still reflected in their culture and language. Your comparison to Hungarians, Finns and especially Basques is sketchy. Their nations are all located in Europe, their cultures, makeup, and identity are all European. The same cannot be said of Jews who, again, are not just Ashkenazi or Sephardi. Gypsies would be a more appropriate comparison, as they inhabited various regions of Europe, but originally came from elsewhere. And Carptrash, this has nothing to do with antisemitism. Recognizing the Middle Eastern heritage of Jews is not antisemitic.69.248.98.23 (talk) 07:44, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

By the way, I sourced it this time.69.248.98.23 (talk) 07:37, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm not here to discuss history or politics, all I say is that your edits seem to have a certain agenda which seem to fit more to a message board than to Misplaced Pages. Basically all your edits are about how "The Jews" are Asian or Oriental, inlcuding small edits such as "European Jews" to "Jews who lived in Europe" because of course to you they can't really be European, like you get the decide for 15 million people who live everywhere on earth what they really are or not. And other than that you're not editing anything else. If that's not a political agenda of some sort I don't know what is. And it's not that I'm following your edits or anything, I'm just a regular user like you are. I just find these edits unencyclopedic. Yuvn86 (talk) 00:58, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm not trying to decide anything for anyone. As you said, this is an encyclopedia, and so other peoples feelings do not factor into how I edit articles. And as much as I don't want to repeat myself again, not all Jews are of Ashkenazi or Sephardic descent. Many are of Mizrahi, Yemenite, Bene Israel, etc heritage. And yet they all trace back culturally, if not by direct descent in the case of the first 3 groups, to ancient Israel. This makes them indigenous to the Israel, which is in Asia, and are thus Asian/Middle Eastern/whatever you want to call it. This doesn't gloss over their long sojourn in Europe, as you seem to think it does. Rather, it simply addresses the entire picture. It's called the Jewish diaspora for a reason.

And with all due respect, you seem equally determined to lump all Jews together (regardless of their background) as European and nothing else.69.248.98.23 (talk) 10:59, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm not forgetting about other groups, just most of your edits were on Ashkenazi Jews, American Jews etc so I was referring to them. I'm pretty sure that you putting American Jews few weeks ago in Asian categories would surprise and seem weird to the vast majority of people who will see it... it was correctly removed. Yuvn86 (talk) 15:05, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Opinions?

The edits I've implemented have sources all over the page. Unless you want me to shoehorn those references into the category box, and I doubt you do.Evildoer187 (talk) 00:12, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Not even Arabs article is in Asian categories, so you're adding Ashkenazi Jews to these categories?? I really don't think the first people which jump to anyone's head when they think of Ashkenazim are Indians or Persians or Koreans... correct me if I'm wrong. Yuvn86 (talk) 00:58, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

You are right that Arabs should also be included if Jews are. Nevertheless, I don't have the time, or the patience, to go through every Asian group just to make sure they're included. I focus on topics that are relevant to me personally.

"I really don't think the first people which jump to anyone's head when they think of Ashkenazim are Indians or Persians or Koreans"

What does this have to do with anything? Also, Persians are Middle Eastern as well.Evildoer187 (talk) 11:11, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

I think that categories such as Category:Ethnic groups in the Middle East, Category:Jews and Judaism in Asia, Jews and Judaism in Europe etc seem to fit much better to the subject. but you of course removed it because you have a different opinion to force... Yuvn86 (talk) 15:24, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Removing those categories was not intentional on my part. I was simply trying to put back the categories you removed yourself. My reasons for including them in the West Asian/Asian categories should be obvious; Jews are, objectively speaking, an indigenous Asian/Middle Eastern people. Attempting to uproot them from that designation reeks of politics (or the erroneous belief that "it's just a religion", which is clearly not true), and I don't think Misplaced Pages is any place for that sort of thing.Evildoer187 (talk) 05:01, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

You write this and don't seem to notice that it's your edits who actually reeks of politics, forcing your opinions on what "The Jews" are all over Misplaced Pages. Yuvn86 (talk) 10:21, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Your point would be valid, had my additions been based in something other than historical, archaeological, linguistic, genetic, and cultural fact. And so long as what I'm saying is factual (which it clearly is), then that's all that matters. I see little reason to treat Jews as a European group.Evildoer187 (talk) 10:35, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Then I suggest you go to Stormfront and post there, where you will find people who believe that a Jew who lived in Germany/Poland/Greece etc for centuries can never be a real Pole, German, Greek. Yuvn86 (talk) 13:07, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Cute. First of all, Afrikaners, Cajuns, non-Amerindian Americans, etc have all lived in their respective countries for "centuries" as well. They may be African, Canadian, or American in terms of citizenship, residency, or national identity, but you would be mad to call them Africans or Americans in the same sense as say, a Cherokee or a Bantu. Similarly, Jews have inhabited various places in Europe for long periods of time, but to treat them as one of the original peoples of Europe is historical revisionism. Jews are by definition a Middle Eastern/Semitic population.

And before you bring up the Magyars, Basques, Finns, etc like you did in the conversation above, I should point out that all of these groups are of European origin. The Magyar Urheimat is in the western Ural mountains (located in Europe), whereas the Basques are indigenous to Western Europe. The Finns originally came from the area in between the Volga and Kama rivers in European Russia.

Furthermore, if you think it's only Stormfronters and other racist types who consider Jews an indigenous Middle Eastern/Semitic group, think again: http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-sham-postcolonial-argument-against-israel/ In fact, what you are arguing right now could even be construed as antisemitic itself (i.e. whitewashing/rewriting/denial of Jewish history), depending on who you talk to.Evildoer187 (talk) 11:15, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

I see that you gave me a warning and deleted it, when it's actually you who needs to get one or more warnings for all your edits, as you revert anyone who changes your edits like a dictator who owns Misplaced Pages. You removed my small changes to the 'Definitions of whiteness in the United States' article. All I did was to delete the parts "many don't consider themselves to be white" and "many are excluded from white privilege". The second is maybe arguable (though the source seem to speak about the past more), but where the hell did you hear the first one? On which papers or facts or lists did you get that false info? It was added as your opinion, simple as that. It's like if I'll go now to, say, Italian American article and will add "many Italian Catholics in America don't consider themselves white" because that's what I want. I'm sorry but it doesn't work this way. And since when minority = different skin color? Adding sneaky personal opinions like this to Misplaced Pages is very dangerous and I'm thinking about reporting you though I'm still not completely sure. Yuvn86 (talk) 20:24, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Well first off, I deleted the warning because I did not want to start another (possibly uglier) argument with you. I have neither the time or the patience for it. However, you were edit warring, and the rules say you have to use the talk page to reach consensus first, BEFORE undoing another persons edits. Second, I was not the one who put "many don't consider themselves to be white" there. The editor who initially posted it should probably have provided some citations (a problem that I have just rectified), but otherwise I did not see a reason to remove it. Furthermore, there was nothing false about what had been written, as many Jews do, in fact, consider themselves non-white. For instance, those who are Mizrahi, or Yemenite (i.e. groups that you seem more than happy to simply ignore), or even those of Ashkenazi/Sephardi descent who are of the darker variety and more accurately reflect the ancestral source population (Ben Bernanke and Grant Heslov, for example), and yes there are quite a few lighter skinned Jews who don't consider themselves white either. It seems to me that you are completely unwilling to acknowledge the simple (and well documented) fact that Jews are not simply a religion, but rather a distinct ethnic group/nationality whose roots span thousands of years and trace back to the Middle East. It just won't register into your thinking whatsoever. However, that is not my problem.Evildoer187 (talk) 12:48, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

It's sourced now. Happy?Evildoer187 (talk) 13:12, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

OK then, in that case, I'll add "many today don't consider themselves to be white, but a separate minority" to the Italian American page. Will it really seem like an appropriate edit to you and not POV?

If you can provide sources for it, then be my guest.Evildoer187 (talk) 23:48, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

And I checked the sources, none of them seem to say that American Jews see themselves as a different race than other white Americans Yuvn86 (talk) 23:03, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

If that's what you think, then you clearly didn't even read any of them. None of them talk about "races" specifically, but rather cultural identity and ethnicity. Evildoer187 (talk) 23:48, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

So why don't you change it to "some see themselves as a cultural/ethnic/whatever minority"? otherwise it stays at "many don't see themselves as white" which is kind of historical revisionism. The article is about race after all, not culture/ethnicity/descent.Yuvn86 (talk) 21:56, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Because whiteness is far more complex than simple racial categorization. Otherwise, Irish people and Italians would never have been designated non-white, nor would we have any need for such an article in the first place. As my citations have shown, many Jews continue to see themselves as culturally and ethnically separate from whiteness.Evildoer187 (talk) 19:17, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Can you quote from the sources here? from what I checked, they write about them just being a minority, not about seeing themselves different from whites... Yuvn86 (talk) 21:00, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

I will not warn you again

Use the talk page before reverting edits. Don't just remove it because WP:IDONTLIKEIT. I made it clear that the conspiracy theories were, in fact, conspiracy theories. Read the sources, please. Evildoer187 (talk) 18:53, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

I feel like we are discussing forever and not getting anywhere. What makes you think hateful stereotypes belong to that article and not the antisemitism article? I don't see "they were often stereotyped of drinking vodka since birth and caring more about vodka than anything else blah blah" on Russians article... Yuvn86 (talk) 19:47, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Weird strawman argument aside, the section was about discrimination against Jewish communities residing in Europe, i.e. Ashkenazi and to a lesser extent, Sephardic Jews. I'm afraid ridiculous drinking stereotypes about Russians do not even remotely compare to Jewish "in league with the devil" conspiracy theories, which have been used to persecute Jews for centuries, and continue to do so to this day.Evildoer187 (talk) 20:11, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

I won't delete your message on my page. I am confident enough in my edits to let them speak for themselves. You have me erroneously pegged as some sort of neo-Nazi type (even though I'm not even white) because I categorize Jews as a Semitic/Middle Eastern people, which is an indisputable fact and should not be problematic to anyone who isn't motivated by politics or racial insecurities.

It might also do you some good to read this, particularly number 8. http://this-is-not-jewish.tumblr.com/post/34344324495/how-to-criticize-israel-without-being-anti-semitic

It may be a blog post on Tumblr, but his arguments are nevertheless 100 percent valid. It might shock you to realize that it is actually you who is promoting antisemitism and hatred of Jews, not me.Evildoer187 (talk) 02:23, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

So this is about Israel? Yes Israel is in the Middle East which is in Asia. But guess what, it exists for 60+ years, recognized by the UN and most countries, is a home for 7+ million citizens etc. In other words it really doesn't need genetics to claim a right to exist like you maybe seem to think... Yuvn86 (talk) 21:29, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

List of Indigenous Peoples, Evildoer187

I noticed that you have been having editing conflicts with Eveildoer187, as have I, with respect to related subject matter. You may be interested in having a look at the article List of indigenous peoples. I am considering filing a request for comment action on user conduct Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/User conduct against Evildoer187, as his irrational flooding of the pages is distracting and obstructive toward building consensus in a meaningful manner based on reason, facts and sources.--Ubikwit (talk) 17:27, 14 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit