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Recommended revision of the first line

I would like to make a change of the first line, to: "Ashkenazi Jews, also known as Ashkenazic Jews or Ashkenazim (Hebrew: אַשְׁכְּנַזִּים‎‎, Ashkenazi Hebrew pronunciation: , singular: , Modern Hebrew: , ; also יְהוּדֵי אַשְׁכֲּנַז Y'hudey Ashkenaz, "The Jews of Ashkenaz"), are the Jews descended from the medieval Jewish communities along the Rhine in Germany from Alsace in the south to the Rhineland in the north, who trace their origins to the Fertile Crescent."69.248.98.23 (talk) 12:29, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it presents a thesis, well-established, as a fact. The Loter or Rhine-Alsace hypothesis is just that.Nishidani (talk) 12:48, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

I can agree with your proposal, maybe there should be also some details about the time of origin. Highly specialized books are dealing with this question. Like for example Molecular Photofitting: Predicting Ancestry and Phenotype Using DNA by Tony Nick Frudaki --Tritomex (talk) 13:08, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

I would like to propose new edition to the lead: , singular: , Modern Hebrew: , ; also יְהוּדֵי אַשְׁכֲּנַז Y'hudey Ashkenaz, "The Jews of Ashkenaz") are ethnoreligious group which likely originated in Middle East, during the Bronze Age (from 2000 BC to 700 BC) and was probably formed as separate Jewish group in the region along the Rhine in Germany from Alsace in the south to the Rhineland in the north during the Middle Age-

The term likely and probably I would propose to be included not because there is a lack of RS from population genetics for this claim, as with my knowledge of population genetics I have no doubts regarding this question but because I would like to avoid any long-term dispute.--Tritomex (talk) 17:03, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

I disagree with the idea that concessions should be made to those who want to raise a big stink over it, because it usually just comes from people with a political axe to grind. For instance, the article on Gypsies is rather explicit in placing their origins in South Asia, and it's known with about as much certainty that Ashkenazi Jews ultimately hail from the Levant. Ashkenazi origins, more than any other, are highly politicized so I'm trying to avoid caving into the demands of fanatics. This is an encyclopedia, after all.69.248.98.23 (talk) 07:52, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

I can accept your opinion because scientifically speaking, you are right. Genetically Ashkenazi Jews do originate from Middle East. If you would agree, I would only keep the term likely in the section of Rhineland.

So can we have agreement about this wording: , singular: , Modern Hebrew: , ; also יְהוּדֵי אַשְׁכֲּנַז Y'hudey Ashkenaz, "The Jews of Ashkenaz") are ethnoreligious group which originated in Middle East, during the Bronze Age (from 2000 BC to 700 BC) and was likely formed as separate Jewish group in the region along the Rhine in Germany from Alsace in the south to the Rhineland in the north during the Middle Ages- --Tritomex (talk) 15:10, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Getting closer, but still a little too muddled in my opinion. I would go with this: , singular: , Modern Hebrew: , ; also יְהוּדֵי אַשְׁכֲּנַז Y'hudey Ashkenaz, "The Jews of Ashkenaz") are an ethnic group who trace their origins to the Middle East, and settled along the Rhine in Germany from Alsace in the south to the Rhineland in the north during the Middle Ages.

Thoughts?69.248.98.23 (talk) 21:39, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Also, does anyone know how to request an article change in semi-protected articles like this one?69.248.98.23 (talk) 21:42, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Just in order to avoid further speculations-which regularly follows "settled along the Rhine in Germany from Alsace in the south to the Rhineland in the north during the Middle Ages." could be challenged based on many different,sometimes non important reasons. If you have reliable source, which can back fully this, I agree to add in this form. If not use this one , this source can back my proposal. The time of the origin maybe needs to be mentioned...anyway all depends on source.--Tritomex (talk) 22:07, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

The word "settled" needs to be included. The current version of the article says that they descend from the medieval Jewish communities in that part of Europe, hence the addendum "settled during the Middle Ages". That source you have there would work.

How do I request a change to this article?69.248.98.23 (talk) 08:24, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Let's try this: , singular: , Modern Hebrew: , ; also יְהוּדֵי אַשְׁכֲּנַז Y'hudey Ashkenaz, "The Jews of Ashkenaz") are an ethnic group who trace their origins to the Levant, and settled along the Rhine in Germany from Alsace in the south to the Rhineland in the north during the early Middle Ages.69.248.98.23 (talk) 08:24, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

As I said I agree with your proposal, but for the term "settled" we need references. With the material I have proposed as source I can succefully defend the term "formed" You are free, to go and proceed with your proposal immediately but you have to have RS references in order to be able to keep this long term. I propose to change the lead as soon as possible. Do not forget that Ashkenazi Jews did not settled immediately from Middle East to Rhineland, but went through Roman Empire and became distant Jewish ethnic group only at 8th-9th century. This is why I proposed my wording. However the most important thing is to start with the change, therefor go ahead with it now, with my wording if the task of defending the lead with reliable source, would be on my shoulders, or with your proposal if you have RS for your proposal.--Tritomex (talk) 11:40, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Conspiracy theories

I think there should be an additional section to the article titled "conspiracy theories", primarily because Ashkenazi Jews were the principle subject of most if not all of them. These include the Rothschilds, blood libels, the murder of Christ, control of the banks and government institutions, Zionist collaboration with the Nazis, etc etc etc. There's also a paper here about how the Jews who settled in Europe were frequently victims of "Orientalism", and were considered the "Asiatics of Europe", because of their origins in the Middle East. http://homes.chass.utoronto.ca/~ikalmar/illustex/orijed.intro.htm Evildoer187 (talk) 09:25, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

Sources must specifically discuss the subject of the article, which is Ashkenazi Jews. I understand why you are adding this but it's against policy and guidelines. Dougweller (talk) 10:07, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

How do you add images to the infobox?

I have 8 more celebrities/famous figures I want to add to the image box, but I don't know how to implement them.Evildoer187 (talk) 23:35, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

I will explain you how to do it this evening. Just note that it's better to discuss it first. Here is a link to the discussion: please suggest who you want to add there. Danton's Jacobin (talk) 10:45, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

So here is what we see on Ashkenazo Jews:

|image    =
<table border=0 align="center">
<tr>
<td>]</td>
<td>]</td>
<td>]</td>
<td>]</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>]</td>
<td>]</td>
<td>]</td>
<td>]</td>
</tr>
</table>
|caption= 1st row: ] {{·}} ] {{·}} ] {{·}} ] 2nd row: ] {{·}} ] {{·}} ] {{·}} ]

You can see there is a pattern, right? Like its

 <td>]</td> 

Do you get what I mean? So in each line we have a different picture, and in order o separate between the lines you add:

</tr>
<tr>
What I do is I simple look at the patern, I copy a part of it:
<tr>
<td>]</td>
<td>]</td>
<td>]</td>
<td>]</td>
</tr>
I add it to the pattern we already have, so we getL
<tr>
<td>]</td>
<td>]</td>
<td>]</td>
<td>]</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>]</td>
<td>]</td>
<td>]</td>
<td>]</td>
</tr>

And then in the new line I created I just put new pictures and new names. Did you understand what I explained? Feel free to ask questions! But it's important for you to know: Don't add lines on your own, you might have great ideas, but you will be reverted if you do something people don't like, and if you revert them back you might be blocked. The best thing to do is go to the discussion page and join the existing discussion, saying who you want to add:

You said you want to add 8 more people, and I'm sure you thought of great people, but it's too much because then we will have 4 lines of 8 people, when it looks better if you have 2 or 3 lines, so it's better if you suggest 4 people and not 8 people. Also, before doing the edit, as said before, say on the discussion page why you want to add them, wait a bit for the comments, and then do the edit (or ask me to do the edit for you). Danton's Jacobin (talk) 18:27, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

I was trying to ask how you upload images from the internet and format them for the image box. Usually, I just find an image and Copy Image Location, and then insert it wherever the image needs to go. That's what I'm having trouble with.Evildoer187 (talk) 00:47, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Sorry for the late response! I'm actually not sure how to do that. There is a link here talking about how to do it: Misplaced Pages:Uploading images. To be honest, I myself didn't do it so I'm not sure about that. Danton's Jacobin (talk) 11:25, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Photo box suggestions

I have implemented my own additions to the photo box in the article. Admittedly, it looks a little messy because I took the photos from their respective Wiki pages, and re-formatted them for the photo template on here, since I cannot upload the photos manually. I would have preferred using a different photo of Ben Stein, for instance. The people I've added are Ben Stein, Anne Frank, Theodor Herzl, Steven Spielberg, Cliff Simon, Brad Garrett, Ben Bernanke, and Eugene Levy. All 8 of these celebrities are of full Ashkenazi Jewish descent.Evildoer187 (talk) 22:46, 24 November 2012 (UTC) :Hi :-) I support the inclusion of Anne Frank, Herzl, Spielberg. Really nice! I do have problems with some inclusions:

You can't just decide something will never be changed. That discussion happened a long time ago, and there is no law on Misplaced Pages stating ones a concensus was reached no one can suggest any changes and it will stay like that forever. There is a new disscussion now, with new people saying their opinion, and a new, more acceptable selection being made (not a weird one which doesnt include Sholem Aleichem, Marc Chagall or Spielberg). Besides, every ethnic group has at least few living people, the whole idea is to create an image people will recognize as representatives (and even if no living people can be included, which is not the case because it doesnt make sense, I don't know if you hear of it, but Sholem Aleichem is dead). If you want to influence, great, take part in the discussion. Danton's Jacobin (talk) 09:16, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

No way we are returning to the old one, it looked bad and the selection was bad. And the no living people thing is, sorry, total crap, and people should be judged by how notable they are and not if they are alive ot dead (besides, it's not like you didn't forget many dead notable people). Mensch with Shteig (talk) 13:30, 25 November 2012 (UTC) Sockpuppets now blocked.

We are not having living people because of WP:BLP, as decided by adminstrators here, and also we have to have sources that the people listed are Ashkenazi. We also have a consensus selection. If you want to new photobox, you have to get a new consensus for each swap. Avaya1 (talk) 23:21, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

And now it turns out that the above users, all agreeing with each other, were sockpuppets. Avaya1 (talk) 23:18, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Where did the initial conversation/consensus take place? I'd appreciate a link.Evildoer187 (talk) 10:55, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Why was my name crossed out? I'm not a sock puppet. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Evildoer187 (talk • contribs) 05:52, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, fixed. Jayjg 22:43, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Orientalism

I took a section from the Jews page, entitled Orientalism, and added it to this article because I thought it was relevant. I feel it also has an educational value to those who wish to understand antisemitism, and how it works, better.Evildoer187 (talk) 10:50, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Replaced 2 people in the collage

I put Sholem Aleichem instead of van Neumann. Sholem Aleicham is the greatest Yiddish writer ever and it's just weird not to have him in the image.

I put Botvinnik intead of Gershvin for two reasons. First of all, Botvinnik represents the Jewish achievments in chess. Second, Gershvin is not known outside America and there are too much Americans in the image already anyway. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 09:47, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

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