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	History of the Jews in Russia was one of the History good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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Talk:History of the Jews in Russia and the Soviet Union/Archive 1

Biasedness

The section about today's Russia presents only rare antistimetic cases without showing the whole picture and ignoring pro-semitic cases. For example, most antisemitic books are actually banned under anti-hatred penal code. For example, the article says that Mein Kampf was translated into Russian in 2002, but doesn't say that it was actually banned exactly the same year (July 25, 2002). Not to mentation that all "nazi groups" are very marginal and hardly anyone sane takes them seriously.

I understand that American Jews that edit this article "butthurt" about Russia, but it doesn't mean you necessary have to distort the reality. 77.40.81.96 (talk) 09:43, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Comments

No Jewish Settlements before the pale? Come on, not many sure, but none, there were Jewish settlements in China and India. e.g. 1) Granted Khazaria was a temporary phenomenon, still The Jews of Khazaria; by Kevin Alan Brook. 360 pages, 6" x 9" size, Jason Aronson Inc., publishers; 3rd printing, September 2002: ISBN 0-7657-6212-9 (paperback/softcover). Originally published April, 1999, ISBN 0-7657-6032-0 (1st & 2nd printings: cloth/hardcover).

"The Jews of Khazaria recounts the eventful history of the Turkic kingdom of Khazaria, which was located in eastern Europe and flourished as an independent state from about 650 to 1016."

"The Jews of Khazaria draws upon the latest archival, linguistic, and archaeological discoveries. For instance, the book contains archaeological data from sites such as Chelarevo (Serbia), Ellend (Hungary), Sarkel (Russia), Balanjar (North Caucasus), Semikarakovskoye (Russia), Navahradak (Belarus), and Birka (Sweden)."

Further details on the WWW (including many Web sites from which the book can be purchased): The Jews of Khazaria

2) 1727 May 07 Jews are expelled from Ukraine by Empress Catherine I of Russia. ... Can't be expelled unless they are there.

Ukraine was the part of Poland, seized in 1686. Jews were present only in Poland and for a short period in the areas that were taken over from Poland.

Partition of Poland generally refers to 1772 and later ... there were Jews in Russia before that time (as evidence indicates). Ukraine was once controlled by Poland just as it was once governed by Russia and is now independent. And do you really believe that there was not a single Jewish person in as large a country as Russia, that every single person of Jewish ancestory or belief was expelled. I will just delete the sentence as it stands. dml

3) http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=479&letter=R&search=russia#1396

Old talk

Hello, 145.xxx.etc. I would have answered on your talk page, but you do not have one yet. First, welcome to Misplaced Pages. I hope you continue to contribute. As for your question regarding Jewish settlement in Russia, you are right in that it first occurred rather late--however, it was earlier than 1772. Some of the confusion that you rightly pointed out regards the boundaries of Russia and Poland before the partition--much of Ukraine was actually under Polish rule, the Crimea and the Caucasus were not yet under Russian rule, etc. However, I will give some early dates in Russia proper, based on two sources: 1) Dubnow, History of the Jews in Russia and Poland, Vol. 1 (JTS, 1916), and 2) Pinkus, B., The Jews of the Soviet Union (Cambridge University Press, 1990). According to Dubnow, the first substantial Jewish population in Russia came with the annexation of Little Russia in 1654. According to Pinkus, there were already Jewish merchants attached to the army of Dmitry the Pretender in 1605-1606. He adds that a Russian law passed in 1644 proscribed a death penalty for anyone attempting to convert people from the Russian faith and circumcise them--this can only be a reference to Jews. Peter the Great did allow apostasized Jews to settle in Russia and even allowed practicing Jewish bankers to settle in Moscow (Jewish cloth merchants apparently settled in Moscow illegally, so that in 1676 it was necessary to renew an order expelling them from the city. When Catherine I expelled the Jews from all Russian domains in 1727 (the problemt ostensibly began with the building of a synagogue in Zverovich, near Smolensk. The ukase began: "It has come to our attention that some Jews in our Empire, and particularly in Little Russia, continue to live there under false pretences ...), there was an outcry from nobles who required them to fill certain economic positions. There was a blood libel in Gorodnya, Little Russia, in 1702. Toward the end of his reign, Peter the Great allowed Lipmann Levy, a banker and "court Jew" to settle in St. Petersburg. According to one Russian historian (though I believe it to be an exaggerration) 35,000 Jews were expelled from Russia in 1753. I can go on, but this should serve to base my case. Danny 00:15, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Thanks! It was exactly what I wanted to hear. There were some settlement, although against the general rule, that Jews were not allowed.

Move

I suggest to move the article to "History of the Jews in Russia and the Soviet Union", since this is what this article actually is: (1) pre-revolution Russia, USSR, (3) postsoviet Russia. If no serious objections in 10 days, I'll do it. Mikkalai 17:50, 31 Dec 2003 (UTC)

More old talk

The following piece cut from the body:

Anti-Semitism was probably reduced by 1930, but not wholly by ideological campaigns, such as Yevslektsia, a government entity meant to expose anti-Semitic incidents closed in 1930 by Stalin, citing reduced anti-Semitism due to Soviet policies.

The wikipedian probably misunderstood something somehere. The (correctly named) Yevsektsiya article explains the issue more clearly. Mikkalai 01:37, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Double redirects

172: Next time please watch for double redirects yourself. Mikkalai 09:48, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

einsatzgruppen

Why were the einsatzgruppen removed? It may have little to do with the USSR but it has a lot to do with the Jews in Russia. Andries 11:58, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I have removed that empty section: IMHO, it belongs to the Shoah, but if you strongly think otherwise, fine with me. Arguably, more relevant to this article would be a section regarding the Jews' yesterday's neighbors and even old friends (most notably some Ukrainians, Byelorussians, Lithuanians, Latvians, etc.) who volunteered to collaborate with the Nazis in their extermination. Even after the war, the incidents analogous to the Kielce pogrom were ocurring in other places, too. We should not forget the Righteous among the nations who saved many Jews risking their own and their children's lives. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 06:41, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Yes, it does belong in the article althought may be under a different title e.g. "Jews under Nazi occupation"? The Nazis killed thousands of Jews so leaving this completely unmentioned is ridiculous. Andries 18:01, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Persecution of Jews in Russia

Didn't serious persecution of Jews in Russia actually begin during the late 1800s? Marcus2 22:23, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

What is 7-40?

Supposedly it is a song related to emigration of Jews from the Soviet Union.  What is known about this? — Monedula 11:16, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

AFAIK, it is a Jewish folk song. See ←Humus sapiens←Talk 17:57, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Integration?

"Integration of the Jews and movement from countryside shtetls ..." Should this perhaps be "assimilation" rather than "integration"? Or do I misunderstand? -- Jmabel 08:21, Sep 11, 2004 (UTC)

Having received no response, I have made this change. -- Jmabel 02:13, Sep 30, 2004 (UTC)

This is inaccurate

Law throughout Soviet history, however, listed Jews as one of the union's "basic nations", with their own language (Yiddish), and their own autonomous region — a failed, inhospitable settlement in Siberia that was nonetheless symbolic. The word "Yevrei" or "Jew" is also listed in the nationality section (an infamous "pyataja grafa", or "fifth record") of the obligatory internal passport document, which states the nationality of all Soviet citizens. Such treatment of the Jews as a nationality is somewhat alien to Jewish law, but reminiscent of Zionism. In May 1976, the Soviet journal Party Life prominently even displayed Jews as a distinct "nationality." However many Jews who recall the Holocaust, mistrust being classified as a "nationality" (preferring a more appropriate classification as a religion).

This is absolutely not true. Eastern European Jews identify themselves as an ethnic group or "nationality." Most are quite proud about their secular Jewish traditions, and the vast majority are atheists who identify with the culture of Judaism.

Being classified as a "nationality" wasn't a problem. It was the discrimination that usually ensued when a person was identified as a Jew that was the problem.

Kettle 15:42, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Any reason there is no discussion of...

1. Influence of Haskalah in Russia and the consequent changes in the character of Russian Jewry?
2. The government-run liberal rabbinical schools in the mid-to-late 19th century, such as the one at Zhitomir?
3. Relative loosening up on several fronts (e.g. somewhat easier for Jews to get gov't jobs, somewhat better treatment in the military) during the reign of Alexander II, followed by very harsh repression right afer his assassination?
4. Conversely, I believe that it is entirely wrong to say "During the reign of Alexander III the first pogroms against the Jews happened in Russia." I'm not sure when pogroms began, but Passover was a time of moderate-to-severe terror against Jews long before the reign of Alexander III. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:07, Jan 31, 2005 (UTC)

Or for that matter, how it is possible to have a serious article about the history of judaism during the marxist age, if you censor the marxist doctrine of judaism that explains it? It is funny and obviously self-explain by the fact that judaism is the only culture that has never been able to explain in a rational, scientific manner history, but only with myths and subjective opinions, which obviously perpetuates its historic cycles. This is the piece which is censored, for the record: The fundamental book of Marxism on Judaism is 'The Jewish question' by Karl Marx, followed by 'Judaism and capitalism', by Sombart, and the 'Jewish question' by Abraham Leon, himself a Jew, who died in a concentration camp. In those books the role of Judaism is essential to capitalism. Judaism is considered a Go(l)d culture whose religion was created a 'posteriori', to strengthen the role of the People-caste (Leon), as the exploiter of the Peasant class (Neolithic age, Marx),

the organizers of slave trade (Roman, Middle ages, Leon) and exploiters of the Workers class (industrial age, Sombart). In the tradition of Moses, 'the jewish will suffer all their history for their love of gold' the Holocaust cycle is explained
as the action-reaction process of those exploited by Jewish Capital, who murder their exploiters. The self-fullfilling prophecy of marxism took place both in Germany where Hitler ended his speeches saying 'the death of the Jewish will be the wealth of the Germans',
and the same Russia, where pogroms extended during the civil war and revolution age. While there was a brief moment of brotherhood, in the belief that Judaism was a capitalist culture not a racial trait and hence Jewish could be converted,
the demise of Trostky, returned to an officious age of antisemitism.

Those concepts, though historically correct, are today considered by the natural control of information that capital exercizes over historic truths, 'antisemitic' statements, which are relegated to the free-press of the blogosphere. Certainly not the wikipedia... And yet history can't be denied as it will always follow its own systemic truths... That is the 'jewish paradox', by censoring systematically the 'worldy culture of Judaism (which is ) Gold' Marx, the Jewish question, the classist traits of judaism (Leon), which consists in not-contact with gentiles, as a way to control them through salaries and money (Sombart), will be enacted, and the periodic anger of the poor, will end up in revolutions and holocausts. If judaism were able to have an objective analysis of history with its good and bad sides, its peculiar way of exploiting the poor (war against palestines instead of investment on them, for example), will end and reconciled with mankind they will end also the holocaust cycle. The present actions in gaza, the way in which russians took over them after Yukov's affair, etc. shows that regardless of censorship, the cycles of history will be played again: go(l)d explotaition and murder=holocaust. Shalom —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.177.67.45 (talk) 17:02, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

UkrSSR

UkrSSR it the abreviation for Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. This was official name of the part of the Soviet Union which became Ukraine after desintegration of the USSR in 1991. The regional branch of the Academy of Sciencies of the USSR had official name "Academy of Sciencies of UkrSSR". Please do not revert my correction. Andry

I get 21,400 Google hits for "Ukrainian Academy of Sciences", another 400 for "Ukranian Academy of Sciences", and 30 for "Academy of Sciences of UkrSSR", and 147 for "Academy of Sciences of the UkrSSR". "Ukrainian Academy of Sciences" is by far the most common English name for the organization. Please do not revert my correction, or you will have violated the Misplaced Pages:Three revert rule, and will be subject to banning. Jayjg 21:13, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The reason is that UkrSSR existed before the Internet boom. That's why you have found so little hits for "Academy of Sciences of UkrSSR". See Ukrainian SSR. The names of the Academy at different times are listed in the Ukrainian version of wikipedia in the article "Akademija nauk Ukrajiny" (should be typed in Cyrillic letters, of cause).

"Dozens of research institutes in various fields formed the Academy of Sciences of the Ukrainian SSR." This is the citation from the article Kiev Andriy

I see, you have corrected. Thanks. Andriy

Naming

Is there a particular reason, or need, for this article's name to specify "and the Soviet Union". I realise the Soviet Union was a larger entity than Russia - but the government was essentially based where it is now. --Oldak Quill 02:33, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Jews lived in many places; Russia, Ukraine, BeloRussia, Khazakstan, Georgia, etc. The history covers all of them. Jayjg 02:36, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Reorg

Quite unexpectedly I found myself reworking the article. I think we should stick with mostly chronological sections, otherwise they step on each other's toes. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 03:26, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Forgot to say it before, but super job on the reorg, Humus. I took a crack at it awhile ago and gave up, but your take was really great. --Goodoldpolonius2 15:12, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Glad you liked it! BTW, I'm planning to unindent the assimilation trends section: it should start much earlier; the problem significantly grew in the 19th century. Perhaps this issue deserves a separate article altogether. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 09:25, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

censuses

according to , the 1989 census gives 537,000 Jews, not 1.45 million as shown in our table. I don't know if the difference is due to Russia vs. Soviet Union, this would mean that close to one million live in non-Russian Soviet territories. If this is the case, more than half the decrease since 1970 will be due to a changed population base and not to emigration or assimilation. As always, it is of course difficult to identify Jews qua ethnicity (as opposed to religion), and the census probably reflects self-identification; The 2002 census gives 230,000 Jews, and this is for Russia only, but it may exclude minor groups like the Tats classified as separate ethnicities; these will not amount to more than a couple of thousands however. The vast majority of these 230,000 will be native speaker of a Russian indistinguishable from any other Russian speaker, so unlike most other ethnicities listed in the census, it is not a linguistically defined one, and therefore much more open to interpretation. Baad 09:26, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Soviet reaction to the Holocaust

The article writes, "The official Soviet policy regarding the Holocaust was to present it as atrocites against Soviet citizens, not acknowledging the genocide of the Jews." This claim is somewhat of an over-simplification, underestimating the often-conflicing nature of Soviet statements on the subject, depending on under the direction of the influence of which state ministry, such as Propaganda, Foreign Affairs, or Education, or which party organ, they were issued. Moreover, there's greater variation depending on changing political realities over time. For example, during the brief period of warm relations between the Soviet Union and Israel, the Soviets made reference to the genocide agaisnt the Jews. Gromyko stated during the UN debate, "The Jewish people had been closely linked with Palestine for a considerable period in history.... As a result of war, the Jews as a people have suffered more than any other people. The total number of the Jewish population who perished at the hands of the Nazi executioners is estimated at approximately six million. The Jewish people were therefore striving to create a state of their own, and it would be unjust to deny them that right." 172 | Talk 03:55, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

You are correct to note that policies did vary with time. The direction of the "party line" throughout the periods of reigning of Stalin-Khrushchev-Brezhnev was far from straight. The source also had effect, but much less - the regime in the USSR was centralized and authoritarian. In this case, perhaps we should say typically or something to that effect. The policy in question was indeed typical and I can bring more examples if necessary. Gromyko's UN speech belongs in the relevant section and we do cite it. Note that it was intended exclusively for the audience beyond the Iron Curtain. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 06:30, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Good call. In this case, as you say, typically or something to that effect works. Another exception to the generality is that various Soviet academic circles were aware of the genocide against the Jews, though their ability to frame the public discussion of the subject was very limited. 172 | Talk 06:45, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

It is impossible to hide such losses. AFAIK, almost everyone knew, first through experience or stories and then via samizdat. It became one of politically incorrect topics. Maybe the fact that both Khrushchev and Brezhnev came from Ukraine also played a role. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 09:49, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

"Background"

What is with these phrases like "merchants of Jewish background" and, even more oddly "of Christian background"? Were these not "Jewish merchants" and "Christian merchants"? (Several similar turns of phrase.) -- Jmabel | Talk 00:26, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Badly placed PC effort, I assume. I will fix, as it reads awkwardly. --Goodoldpolonius2 03:50, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Irrelevant info

I don't see how expulsion from England, the Mongol invasion or the founding of Moscow are relevant to the topic. The following paragraphs probably belong to Anti-Semitism or History of anti-Semitism or some such.

In Western Europe and England near the end of the 13th century, the governing elite singled out Jews for special oppression. Christian mechants wished to obtain for themselves the profits from trade that Jewish merchants had secured prior to the 12th century. Jews in Western Europe and England were thus pushed-out of their merchant-trader roles and tracked into the economic role of moneylenders to feudal nobles and kings or to peasants and artisans. When the feudal nobles, after being unable to pay back their high-interest loans, subsequently lost their estates to the Jewish bankers who had lent them money, an economic motive would develop for them to massacre, expel or confiscate the property of the Jews.

In 1290, for instance, the 3,000 Jews living in England were expelled from that country and their property was confiscated. Sixteen years later, the 100,000 Jews of France were expelled, in 1306. Two years after the bubonic plague spread in 1347 through Western Europe, eliminating one-third of its population, persecution of the Jews in Germany also intensified. Between the end of the 14th century and the beginning of the 16th century, most German towns that were commercial centers forced Jews to leave for either the small village domains of German feudal lords or for Eastern Europe: Jews were expelled from Cologne in 1424, expelled from Strasbourg in 1438, expelled from Augsburg in 1439, expelled from Erfat in 1458, expelled from Nuremberg in 1498, and expelled from Ulm in 1499. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 09:51, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Just chiming in to concur :) Ahasuerus 15:38, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

References

Humus Sapiens recent edit: the additions are, of course, welcome, but why the removals? (And especially in a way that makes it very hard to see just what was removed: it would have been a lot cleaner to do this in two steps.) If references were actually used in the writing of the article, they should not be removed just because one editor considers them "irrelevant". -- Jmabel | Talk 07:37, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Jmabel, thanks for watching. I could be mistaken but I think those were added by me some time ago. In this edit, I didn't mean to hide anything, just put the list in reverse chronological order and wanted to deemphasize the refs to general antisemitism. From the diffs, here are the links I removed:

• Antisemitism: The Longest Hatred, Robert S. Wistrich. Pantheon Books, 1992
• Anti-Semitism, article in The Encyclopedia Judaica, Keter Publishing

If you feel they're needed, I won't object. Cheers. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 08:47, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I think that since they appear to have actually been used as sources, we should cite them. I can't see any harm in it. I'll re-add. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:08, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

FA?

Thanks to some amazing work by Humus, I think this is getting close to FA status. What do people think about putting it up for peer review? --Goodoldpolonius2 04:46, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. The post-Sov section is still waiting for its minstrels... I don't feel like it yet. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 09:35, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

The current text is a good start, but it's a bit syntactically challenged at the moment :) Also, there are many minor errors throughout the article (Kaganovich and Molotov were expelled from the Communist Party in 1962, not 1957; Trotsky was not the founder of the Red Army, at least not technically; etc). There are also numerous omissions of relevant information. Off the top of my head:

• the Decembrists had an interesting proto-Zionist plan to send Russian Jews to Palestine
• the second phase of the student unrest (1901) that eventually led to the Russian Revolution of 1905 started with a public protest against a play that was widely perceived as anti-Semitic
• the Pale effectively ceased to exist in 1915 during the Russian retreat on the Eastern Front
• the 1917 Provisional Government lifted many restrictions on Russian Jews
• although it's true that "The number of prominent Jewish Old Bolsheviks killed in the purge reflects the fact that Jews were the largest group in the Central Committee", there was an anti-semitic component to Stalin's campaign against the Left Opposition as early as the mid-1920s (see, e.g., Trotsky's Thermidor and anti-Semitism)

More importantly, the article as it currently exists is primarily about "History of Russian and Soviet Anti-Semitism" as opposed to "History of the Jews in Russia and the Soviet Union". Surely there is more to be said on the subject? Ahasuerus 13:58, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Oh yes, forgot to mention the most glaring omission, the Populists' infamous attempts to exploit the 1881-1882 wave of pogroms to incite a revolution. You can find the relevant documents in Adam Ulam's In the Name of the People: Prophets and Conspirators in Prerevolutionary Russia (1977, 2nd ed. 1998) Ahasuerus 14:47, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Please do contribute to the article, Ahasuerus. BTW, Red Army says: "Credit as the founder of the Red Army generally goes to Leon Trotsky, the People's Commissar for War from 1918 to 1924." Cheers. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 04:23, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

I'd be happy to help, but time is always at a premium and many Misplaced Pages articles are in considerably worse shape. I just finished re-writing the Leon Trotsky article and beginning to work on getting at least the top tier of the Polish military into some semblance of shape. There is work to be done everywhere from E. W. Hornung to Gustáv Husák and the list goes on and on. In the Russian niche of Misplaced Pages alone, there are huge gaps all over the place, from Nikolai Sukhanov and Yuri Steklov, arguably the two most important leaders of the February Revolution of 1917, to major writers like Alexei Remizov. What is there, like the Ilya Ehrenburg article, is often so bad as to be almost worthless. The Red Army article is yet another example. Oh well, one of these days...

Besides, I am not the best editor to help with Jewish history, which is a thoroughly and comprehensively researched field. There are folks who could do everything that I could do for this article (and more) in 1/10th the time, they just haven't made it here yet :) Ahasuerus 14:16, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

In the interest of inching towards FA, I put the article up for peer review. --Goodoldpolonius2 20:34, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Russian-language works...

... in the References section should also give English-language transliterations of authors' names and translations of titles. -- Jmabel | Talk 08:57, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Good idea. I'll work on this. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 09:01, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Jews and Bolshevism

I disagree with several recent anonymous edits to the section Jews and Bolshevism. They fall around the intersection of nationality, ethnicity, and religion, always tricky territory where the vocabulary can become confusing, but in these case I think the older wordings were better. I figured I'd try to start a discussion rather than merely revert, though if I don't get a response within 24 hours, I will simply revert.

"Many members of the Bolshevik party were ethnically Jewish" became "Many members of the Bolshevik party were formerly Jewish." I believe "ethnically Jewish" is correct. Although I realize that Jewishness is not, in the narrow sense an ethnicity, this is the normal way to refer to people who are Jews but do not practice Judaism. Note that under Jewish law, an apostate is still a Jew: the only way someone ceases to be a Jew is through cherem (the Jewish form of excommunication). To the best of my knowledge, none of the Jewish Bolsheviks were ever excommunicated, at least not by any mainstream community of Jews; cherem is a very rare matter in modern times. Hence, while "ethnically Jewish" is slightly problematic, "formerly Jewish" is quite wrong if "Jewish" here refers to the Jewish people, and at least equally as problematic as "ethnically Jewish" if it refers to Judaism, the Jewish religion: it would imply that each of these people was, as an individual, formerly a practicing Jew; I believe quite a few were not (Leon Trotsky being an obvious example).

Similarly "Even today, many anti-Semites continue to promote the idea of a link between Judaism and Communism. However, the concept that an entire ethnic group can be held responsible for the actions of a few is very widely rejected" became "Even today, many anti-Semites continue to promote the idea of a link between Judaism and Communism. However, the concept that an entire religious community can be held responsible for the actions of a few is very widely rejected" (emphasis mine). But contemporary anti-Semitism is not generally aimed primarily at Jews as a "religious community" but as a ethnic group. The Nazis killed secular Jews (and even Jewish converts to Christianity) just as readily as they killed practicing Jews.

Finally, "Jews were a plurality ethnicity in the Communist Central Committee, which had a non-Russian majority" became "Jews were a plurality ethnicity in the Communist Central Committee, which had a non-Christian majority." As far as I know, there were no practicing Christians on the Communist Central Committee, and I would be truly astounded to discover otherwise, so if that is the sense of Christian here the "non-Christian majority" is an irrelevancy. If Christian here refers to ancestry, then the statement is false: one would have had to combine the Jews with Latvians, Poles, and perhaps others of Christian ancestry to get a majority of the committee. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:19, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with each of your sentiments but am not quite sure what a "non-Russian majority" means in this context... I strongly support the reversion of these edits for the reasons stated. jnothman 08:48, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

• We can word that more clearly; the issue is, again, ethnicity. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:37, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I also agree. Good catch. ←Humus sapiens 09:55, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Given the apparent consensus here, I will edit. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:37, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Late to the table, but agree as well. Jayjg 18:02, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Religious life

The article doesn't discuss Jewish religious life in the SU. Isn't it the right place? Xx236 17:37, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

In addition to this article, there is Religion in the Soviet Union and Soviet Union#Religious groups. Check out Category:Status of religious freedom by country, perhaps you want to write Status of religious freedom in the Soviet Union, Status of religious freedom in the Russian Federation, etc. ←Humus sapiens 22:23, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Russian mafia

I've done some minor copy-edits today after additions by User:67.10.43.83. I decided to remove the following phrase: Russian Jews are also present in the Russian mafia, although their numbers in the organization are difficult to come by. - Jews are not angels, so isn't it expected? Unless we have some numbers, this seems meaningless. ←Humus sapiens 04:40, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Abramovich and Berezovsky, say, are Jews. Something like 75% of post-Soviet oligarchs are Jews. Since oligarchy roughly equals to mafia... A coincidence? 77.40.81.96 (talk) 09:41, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Mush

This sequence of three sentences is so all-over-the-map is to reduce itself to mush:'

The typical Soviet policy regarding the Holocaust was to present it as atrocities against Soviet citizens. Given that the first victims of Auschwitz were Soviet prisoners of war, there is some legitimacy to this position. However, official Soviet texts usually did acknowledge the specific genocidal targeting of the Jews.

• "there is some legitimacy" is POV.
• the first and third sentences say almost opposite things. The text that follows and the one citation provided bears out the first sentence; the verbal transition to that passage suggests that it is intended to bear out the third.

-- Jmabel | Talk 02:45, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Conversely...

... is it really appropriate that we only mention Solomon Mikhoels and the Moscow State Jewish Theater in the context of their post-WWII suppression, and not in terms of the thriving secular Jewish culture in Moscow and elsewere in the first decades after the Revolution? - Jmabel | Talk 02:48, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Recently added paragraph

The following paragraph was recently added:

The word "Jew" was also avoided in the media when criticising undertakings by Israel, which the Soviets often accused of racism, chauvinism etc. Instead of Jew, the word Israeli was used almost exclusively, so as to paint its harsh criticism not as anti-Semitism but anti-Zionism.

I suppose. Sort of. But it isn't like when they criticized Austria they referred to the fact that its population were overwhelmingly Roman Catholic, or when they criticized the UK they referred to the fact that its population were largely Anglican. Am I missing something here? - Jmabel | Talk 07:27, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

the thing is, I've read numerous books on foreign politics dating back to the Soviet era, and when fervently criticising the actions of Israel and Jews there, these 'acts of state terror against Palestinians, national oppression' etc are usually attributed to Israelis, which in my native language sounds linguistically extremely constructed (I'm not reading Russian originals but Soviet era translations). I'm sure they used the Russian word for 'Israeli' in these occasions.

Well, to make my sentiment clear: the Soviets used their usual extreme rhetoric against the Jews (Israel) and accused them of whatever thousand sins, but didn't want these accusations (often obvious slander) to look similar to anti-Semitism. Thus, euphemisms were used. --Constanz - Talk 08:47, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Native Hebrew?

In the section on Alexander "were not permitted to speak their native tongue of Hebrew": I doubt there were any significant number of people in the world at the time who had Hebrew as a native tongue. This was an addition with a citation; would you please re-check your source? I'd be really interested in knowing precisely what it said. Since Hebrew was, at that time, primarily a liturgical language, does this mean that Hebrew prayers were illegal? Or perhaps it means to say "were not permitted to speak their native tongue of Yiddish"? That seems more likely. Even in that case, though, one must ask: not permitted in what realms of life? I seriously doubt that it was illegal to carry on a conversation in Yiddish at home; I'm sure it was impossible to testify in court or petition over grievances in Yiddish; but where in between did the line fall? Since Yiddish theater had its first great heyday in Russia late in Alexander's term, there could not have been all that much of a prohibition. Or, if it was Hebrew, how did the government-sponsored rabbinical school at Zhytomyr function? - Jmabel | Talk 23:22, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

The questionable statement has now been removed. Thanks. - Jmabel | Talk 17:31, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

The Holocaust

The section in the article reads : 33,771 Jews of Kiev shot in ditches at Babi Yar. From what I have seen in a TV interview of one of the survivors, she said 300,000 thousand died, and only 300 survived (PBS Documentary Russia's War). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.247.18.146 (talk • contribs) 17 August 2006.

Plurality of majority of CCC?

This edit changes Jews from a plurality to a majority of the Revolutionary-era Communist Central Committee. I'd like to see a citation for that. - Jmabel | Talk 20:45, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Joseph Trumpeldor

There is signature under picture :> Joseph Trumpeldor, the most decorated Jewish soldier in the Russian Army for his bravery in the Russo-Japanese War: But on the picture i cant see any single order? Is somebody make a jock ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.16.183.57 (talk • contribs) 30 October 2006.

Recent move

I object to the recent move of this from History of the Jews in Russia and the Soviet Union to Russian Jewry. Approximately half of the Jews in Russia at any time in the last century or so are secular and not part of any "Jewry". - Jmabel | Talk 17:47, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

"Many Jews were Bolsheviks"

This is a fundamentally Antisemitic observation in this context as say that "Many negros commit crimes." I am utterly shocked that our editors fail to see this.

How much is little - one? Is rwo Jews too many? It does not matter that a book is cited. Any book which says such a thing is fundamentally racist. One can give a number, 10, 100, 1,000, 10,OOO, etc.

But the subtext says "TOO MANY JEWS WERE BOLSHEVIKS"! --Ludvikus 02:46, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

It just states a fact. The number of those of Jewish descent was disproportionately large (the Jews accounted for a much smaller percentage in the total population of Russia/USSR). The causes for this may be complex and there's no subtext to it. The myth of "Jewish Bolshevism" has its own article. Daizus 11:49, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

In fact it doesn't state any fact. The number of Jews in the Bolshevik movement wasn't disproportionate at all. You confuse this with their number among the leaders of the movement. --SimulacrumDP 15:54, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Most materials I've read addressing this issue, claim a large number of Jews joined the Bolshevik movement (and other movements of the era). The causes are complex, some are already given in the article. You may disagree with me, but please refrain from giving verdicts on my state of mind. Daizus 16:41, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

GA Review

After review of this article, I feel that it meets and exceeds the GA standards. Consequently this article is passed and added to the list of Good articles. As I was reading this article I was struck by the amount of information contained herein clearly elaborated on. There are several photographs and a table showing related articles. The prose is clear. I feel that this article needs more cites, though to make through to FA. Dagomar 21:26, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Pale

This article appeared in Russian Yearbook 1912 (pp 704-707) under the title JEWS transliterated in this form to English;

As far as is known, the first Jewish immigrants reached Poland in very early times from countries on the Lower Danube and from the kingdom of Khazars who had accepted the Jewish faith. The national sagas and legends show their importance in this early era. At the end of the 11th century many entered Poland from Germany, and in 1264 Boleslas the Pious granted them numerous priviliges which were extended by Casimir the Great in 1334, in which year the great statue concerning of them, called Jus Magdeburgium, was enacted, followed another called the Privilegia Judaeorum in 1337. The Jews soon spread to Courland, Lithuania and the Ukraine, so that there were in the 18th century numbers of Jews living in Poland and on the Russian frontier, the prohibitive policy of that country making any movement across the border impossible. The law of 1789 gave the Jews the right to live in certain provinces, but in 1792 a great change took place. The first partition of Poland gave to Russia White Russia and part of Lithuania; the second in 1793, and the third in 1795 added the ten Vistula provinces, and in annexing this land, Russia obtained at least half of the entire Jewish race of as subjects. The Russian cencus of 1897 gave the total number of Jews in Russia as 5.215.805. In 1835 the Jews were by the "Code of the Rights of the Jews" confined to to certain districts of the Empire, these districts constituting the so called "Pale". The "Pale" consists of twenty - five of the provinces of the entire Russian Empire. It begins immediately south of the Baltic Provinces, streches throughout the west, and extends over the south as far east as the Don Cossack Territory. It covers about 362.000 square miles, or less than 20 per cent. of European Russia, and only a little over 4 per cent. of the entire Russian Empire. The "Pales" include;

1) In the Kingdom of Poland (or the region of the Vistula) the Province of Warsaw, Kalish, Kielce, Lomzha, Lioublin, Piortkoff, Plotsk, Radom, Souvalki and Siedlce.

2) In Lithuania, the Provinces of Vilna, Kovno and Grodno.

3) In White Russia, the Provinces of Minsk, Vitebsk and Moghileff.

4) In south-western Russia, the Provinces of Volhynia, Podolia, Kieff (expect the city of Kieff), Tchernigoff and Poltava.

5) In southern (new) Russia, the Provinces of Bessarabia, Kherson, Ekaterinoslaff and Taurida (except the city of Yalta).

The following specified classes of Jews are given privilege of domicile throughout the Empire:

1) Merchants of the first guild, i.e. merchants paying a very high business licence, after having paid that licence somewhere within the "Pale" for five consecutive years. This right of living anywhere in Russia, outside of the "Pale" lasts only as long as the payment of the licence is continued, but after ten annual payments the permanent right of domicile within the city in which the payment have been made is acquired.

2) Professional men and women, such as physicians, lawers, dentists, engineers, army surgeons, midwives, and graduates of universities and higher institutions of learning in general. as well as studets in such institutes.

3) Master-artisans working at their trade when admitted to their artisans´ guild, or possessing the necessary legal evidence of proficiency in their craft.

In all these cases the aquired right of domicile extends to the members of the family, and in the case of merchants of the first guild and the proffesional persons, to a limited number of servants and clerks of Jewish faith. In regard of the Jewish artisans, the lomitations are much more numerous, and in 1881 their further emigration from the "Pale" into the interior of the Empire was made exceedingly difficult, and the artisans who were living in the city, as well as in the government of Moscow, were compelled to leave. discharged soldiers form the considerable portion of jews permitted to live throghout Russian Empire, including the Grand Duchy of Finland; this right is granted only to those who served in the army prior to 1874. This class, therefore, cannot increase in number. The temporary sojourn outside the "Pale" of Jews who have no right of permanent domicile, is strictly limited by law to from six weeks to two monts, and then only in cases of proved necessity, such as law-suit, commercial transactions, or proving a will.

93.9 per cent. (4.879.640) of the Jews in Russia live in the "Pale", 4 per cent. (208.635) live in the remainder of European Russia, and 2.1 per cent. (109.530) live in all the Asiatic possessions of the Empire. Thus most of the Jews live in the "Pale", but they constitute only 11.6 per cent. of the entire population. Everywhere in the "Pale" there is terrible congession of the Jews, both in towns and cities, due, in the main, to the Laws of 3 May 1882, which were promulgated as a result of the Jewish riots of 1881. These laws prohibited the further settlement of Jews outside cities and towns, and in practice meant the expulsion of multitudes of Jews from villages where they had already settled. In 1891, by the new law, thousands of Jews were expelled from Moscow and forced forced to live in the "Pale", and Jews were prohibited from buying land or renting it from the peasants. In 1897,of the total urban population of the "Pale" 37.7 per cent. were Jews. It must here be stated that there are villages called "Miestechkoes", where Jews have the right to settle; in every case the Jews have made these into the commercial centres for the numerous outlying Russian villages.

In the "Pale" 29 per cent. of the Jews are engaged in agriculture, and 32 per cent. in commerce, whilst 63.2 per cent of the non-Jews are engeged in agriculture and only 1.4 per cent. in commerce. It is calculated that a Jewish agricultural household´s annual budget is 300 Roubles = about £ 30, but the average annual earnings are not more than 139 Roubles = £ 14. The average plot of ground owned ny a Jewish colonist is smaller than that of his Russian peasant neighbour. Thus in 1897 in the six north-western provinces and four south-western provinces, the Russian peasant had on the average 6.1 and 4.7 acres respectively, but the Jewish peasant had 4.1 and 1.9 acres. In the whole Empire 6.422.684 acres are in Jewish hands, Of this quantity 4.336.829 acres are in the "Pale", but this is only 1.5. per cent. of the whole agricultural land in the "Pale". In Poland, of the land occupied by the Jews, 86 per cent. is ownwed, and 14 per cent. is leased. In the remaining provinces of "Pale" 32.5 per cent. is owned and 67.5 per cent leased.

The following are the most important enactments and Senatorial decisions, given in chronologial order;

1892 17 February. In accordance with a proposal of the Imperial Council, the mining industry in Turkestan is closed to Jews.

1892 2 Juni. An Imperian order, following a proposal of the Imperial Council, to the effect that throughhout the governments of Tiflis, Kutais, Baku and Elisavetpol, as well as in the State domains and privately owned lands in the province of Kouban and Terek, the acquisition or exploitation of oil-fields by Jews, as well as their adminstration, shall be allowed only by special permission of the Ministers of Interior and of Finance, as wellas of the Caucasian Commander-in-Chief.

1892 11 June. A decision of the Imperial Council that Jews shall not take part in municipal elections, and that they shall be excluded from municipal adminstrative positions. Within the "Pale", however, the adminstration expects a certain number of Jews, who are eligble for election as municipal councillors, but their number must not exceed one-tenth of the whole body, and is to be fixed by the Minister of Interior.

1892 18 June. A law establishing a special right of residence in the provinces of Kouban and terek. The indigenous Jews may remain in the places where they are registered, but only in these places, their liberty of movement thus being restricted. All other Jews, with a few exceptions, are forbidden to settle in provinces. the four privilidged categoties have had their rights curtailed. Those Jews who are allowed to remain are forbidden to acquire or rent further property.

1892 15 October. Withdrawal of the righ of residence in the government of Moscow (including the town itself) from soldiers of the old regime (so called "Nikolai" soldiers).

1893 14 January. A circular of the Minister of the Interior cancels the orders of the former Ministers Makov and Tolstoi (21 April 1882), establishing the principle that all Jews who had settled outside the "Pale" prior to April 3 1880, should be left undisturbed.

1893 24 May. an order excluding the health resort of Jalta (the faourite summer resicence of the Imperial family in the Crimea) from "Pale" of settlement.

1893 6 October. A circular of the Medical Department fixing the "percentage rule2 for apothecaries´ apprentices at 3 per cent. of the total number in St.Petersburg and Moscow, and at 5 per cent. in all other places.

1894 30 November. A Senatorial decision to the effect that the Jews of Kieff cannot become merchants of the first Guild until they have paid their licence in some part of the "Pale" of Settlement for at least a year.

1894 23 December. A circular of the Minister of the Interior decreeing that Jews who have graduated as veterinary surgeons in the veterinary college are no longer be admitted to the service of the State.

1895 18 January. A Senarorial decision that rabbis possess no right of residence beyond the "Pale" of Settlement.

1895 27 January. A Senatorial decision depriving Jews of the right of residence in the fifty-verst boundary zone, even though they are possessed of diplomas procuring them the universal privilige of domicele, unless they are descendants of Jews who have been settled there from time immemorial. The same ruling had been made as far back as 1887 in the case of artisans and merchants of the firts Guild.

1895 27 January. A circular of the Minister of the War instructing the Cossack authorities in the Caucasus and the Don territory that Jews visiting the Don. Kouban, and terek provinces for the sake of medicinal waters are not to be admitted.

1895 13 September. A Senatorial decision depriving Jewish agriculturists of the right to rent land outside the precincts of the towns and townlets. A similar decision of later date applies to artisans.

1896 9 March. A regular of the Military Council ordering Jewish soldiers, inless they belong to the privilidged categories, must not spend their forlough outside "Pale" of Settlement.

1897 31 January. A Senatorial decision to the effect that soldiers of the old regime possess no right of residence in the Caucasian provinces of Joubain and Terek.

1897 31 January. A senatorial decision according to which ink-makers are not rank as artisans, and consequently do not possess the universal right of domicile. the latter decisions applies the same ruling to tobacco workers.

1897 26 March. A Senatorial decision that outside the "Pale" of Settlement students as such (unless they possess a special domiciliary privilege) are entitled to the right of residence only in the unversity town whwre they are studying.

1897 26 March. A Senatorial decision that local Jews belonging to the merchants´ corporation of Riga are not entitled to transact business in the district of Riga.

1897 2 June. A law to effect that the admittance of Jewesses to the Women´s Higher Institute of Medicine in St.Petersburg is to be limited to 3 per cent. of the total number of students.

1897 13 November. An Imperial order depriving Jews and Jewesses studying pharmacy, or attending schools of surgery and midwifery respectively, of the right to residence in the town or government of Moscow for this purpose.

1898 18 February, 14 April, and 8 December. A Senatorial decision to the effect that fish-curers, piano-tuners and land surveyors do not belong to the privilidged artisan categories, and are therefore declared to be of non-priviliged occupations, thus possessing no right of residence beyond the "Pale" of Settlement.

1898 18 February. According to an earlier law, merchants of the first Guild, after paying Guild tax outside the "Pale" of Settlement for ten years consecutively, gained the universal right of residence even when they ceased to belong to the Guild.

1898 27 February. A Senarorial interpretation of the law limits this privilege to the town where the Guild tax has been paid.

1898 18 March. A Senatorial decision extends the restrictions relating to the right of recidence in Kouban and Terek to all artisans who have not been assigned to this region. Two years later (18 January 1900) a similar decision is applied to merchants of the first Guild.

1898 25 November. A Senatorial decision decides that Jews who are natives of Riga are not entitled to live in Livonia, but only in Riga and its suburbs.

1898 18 December. A Senarorial decision stating that the right of residence throughout the Empire which has been granted to various categories does not extend to Siberia.

1899 22 January. An Imperial order to the effect that, in the government of Moscow, Jews can be registered as merchants of the first Guild only by permission of the Minister of Finance and the Governor-General of Moscow.

1899 19 May. A Senatorial decision to the effect that the manufacture of mineral water, not being a handicraft, ranks among non-priviliged occupations, and therefore does not confer the right to residence outside the "Pale" of Settlement.

1899 28 May. A Senatorial decision that outside the "Pale" of Settlement the right of residence is vested only for those Jewish domestic servants whose masters possess university diplomas. No other categories of privileged Jews can transfer their domiciliary right to thir servants.

1899 6 October. A Senatorial decision stating that certificates gained by Jewish artisans in Courland are not valid for the rest of the Empire.

1899 14 October. A Senatorial decision according to which artisans living beyond "Pale" of Settlement are noot entitled to sell their own products in any other place than where they are domiciled.

1900 28 May. An Imperial order forbidding the entry of Jews who have acquired an hereditary title of nobility, in the Govenrmant register of nobles.

1900 5 June. A Senatorial decision ruling that compositors, not belonging to the artisan class. possess no right of residence beyond the "Pale" of Settlement.

1901 28 November. A Senatorial decision to the effect that the Jew inheriting a title of nobility does not on account possess the right to serve the State, unless he is also the possessor of a university degree.

1901 19 December. A Senatorial decision that descendants of Jews exiled to Siberia as well as descendants of persons transplated there by Nikolai I. must remain in that particular district where they have been registered.

1902 2 November. A Senatorial resolution according to which dentists, surgeons, and midwives possess the right to residence beyond "Pale" only while they are exclusively engaged in following their profession.

1903 10 May. An order forbidding Jews to purchase, lease, or manage estates beyond the "Pale".

In 1905 a commission was appointed to inquire into the Jewish question, and the Government held out promise of revising the legal status of the Russian Jews and minimizing the disabilities under which they labour.

JN

Jewish history

The above obviously is the main article. --Ludvikus 13:20, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

History of the Chinese in the Colonies and the United States

As the title of this articke now stands it appears to be original research. How about a follow up: History of the Jews in New York City and the United States. --Ludvikus 13:06, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

"Many Jews were/did ..."

Beware of this antisemitic entrapment. Most often the word "many" (as well as "few," etc.) is a POV work. It is to be avoided if possible unless a relevant source is quoted, or it otherwise cannot be replaced. A possible alternative is the following:

    "A notable number of Jews ...".

The advantage of that is that it avoids the (often) subjective, or otherwise disputable, alternatives many/few. --Ludvikus 23:22, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

• For example, antisemites claim that Bolshevism is Jewish. Why? Because "many" Jews were Bolsheviks. But whose to say that the alternative is not closer to the truth: "Few" Jews were Bolsheviks? The choice depends on the complex social theory, or theory of history, one subscribes to. --Ludvikus 23:27, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Death-toll of Jewish Soldiers

http://en.wikipedia.org/Jewish_history_%28Russia_and_the_Soviet_Union%29#The_Holocaust

"Over 200,000 Jews died in battle fighting in the Red Army against the Nazis."

http://en.wikipedia.org/Image:Soviet_Jews_participation_in_WW2.png "1946. The official response to an inquiry by JAC about the participation of the Jewish soldiers in the war (1.8% of the total number). Some antisemites attempted to accuse Jews of the lack of patriotism and of hiding from the military service"

Total number of jews fighting for Red army according to the official story document: 123.822

How come over 200.000 jews died fighting for the red army if only 123.822 even participated? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.232.67.249 (talk) 22:27, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Inflated numbers.--Lvivske (talk) 22:52, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Untrue. The official response to an inquiry by JAC doc. gives not the number of participants, but the number of those recommended for decoration.Galassi (talk) 23:28, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Image content clarification

Pages from a purported copy of the birth certificate (Russian: свидетельство о рождении, lit.,Certification of Birth ) of Michael Lucas (Andrei Treivas, or Treyvas), showing information about his birth. It lists his mother's surname as "Treivas" (or "Treyvas") and his father's surname as "Bregman." Under Russian Soviet law, a child automatically inherited his father's surname so long as the father is known and married to the birth mother at the time of birth. This document proves conclusively that Michael Lucas' parents were not married as of the date of his birth.--72.76.86.219 (talk) 22:27, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Good article reassessment

I asked for a reassessment about the Good article status. See top of talk page Mariah-Yulia (talk) 02:49, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

One problem is the sections on modern Ukraine and Belarus themselves, which belong in the History of the Jews in Ukraine and the History of the Jews in Belarus respectively. It makes no sense to have Ukraine as a subsection of "Jews in Russia today". The information is not about Ukraine as part of the Soviet Union, rather modern Ukraine. That is exactly what the History of the Jews in Ukraine is for. I have proposed the merger, and there is very little content (2-3 sentences) in either of those sections so I expect there to be no objections... Ostap 05:01, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I didn't even know that History of the Jews in Ukraine and History of the Jews in Belarus existed since the see also section didn't list them (I have done that now). I stil don't understand why this article deserves good-article status since it clearly has failed to live up to it's scope (a rename would fix this, see below) Mariah-Yulia (talk) 00:13, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

A lot of information in the article about Russia, but almost none of other former Soviet-republics (and there are some articles (History of the Jews in Ukraine and History of the Jews in Belarus) who do give this information Mariah-Yulia (talk) 00:02, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Vilna Gaon portrait.gif

The image Image:Vilna Gaon portrait.gif is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

• That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
• That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Misplaced Pages:Media copyright questions. --06:00, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Corrections in the tables

I have added a data from the russian census (2002) into the demographic data table and made some references and remarks concerning data from the entire FSU and Russian Federation only.

I believe the Russian Jewish Diaspora section has to be corrected. For example, the data in the Israel table consists of the population from the entire FSU and not Russia only. Therefore, I suggest to rename it to "Russian-speaking Jewish Diaspora". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kostja1975 (talk • contribs) 09:48, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

887 Pogroms in Ukraine

I have tried to validate the text "Out of an estimated 887 mass pogroms in Ukraine during 1917-1918, about 40% were perpetrated by the Ukrainian forces led by Symon Petliura, 25% by the Green Army and various nationalist/anarchist groups, 17% by the White Army (especially by the forces of Anton Denikin), and 8.5% by the Red Army". It was referenced to Solzhenitsyn's 200 let together. I have looked through the 16th chapter of the book "During the Civil War" and made a google search through the whole text on the number 887 but have found nothing. A similar info is given on a Grani.ru page so I have referenced it to Grani.ru (I hope they have not taken it from wiki). The disputed text said "307 (25 %) банды атаманов Григорьева, Махно, Зеленого и других": 25% are bands of Grigoriev, Makhno, Zeleny and others. I think the correct reference to those group is "various warlords". Alex Bakharev (talk) 05:33, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

("Murders during recorded anti-Jewish attacks, 1918-1920"):

Source: Henry Abramson, Jewish Representation in the Independent Ukrainian Governments of 1917-1920, Slavic review, Vol. 50, No. 3 (Autumn, 1991), pp. 542-550
IMO, the number of killed is a better indicator than the number of incidents.--Paul Siebert (talk) 05:52, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Help expand Racism in Russia

Hello! For any editors who are willing, the article "Racism in Russia" could use some expansion on the "antisemitism" section within that article. Thank you for any help you can offer! --Tea with toast (talk)

I notice there are no women amongst the twelve representative Jewish figures at the top of the page. Could this be rectified? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.1.90.6 (talk) 13:55, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Quotation

Not every sourced quotation belongs to the article. Therefore, I deleted this quotation as something that belongs to Stalinist propaganda from 1930s with its typical wording ("cannibalism", etc.). The statement obviously contradicts a lot of factual information, such as the well-known antisemitic campaigns organized by Stalin (rootless cosmopolitans, Doctors' plot, etc.) Let's focus on factual information. Biophys (talk) 19:48, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

During Stalin's rule most former members of tsarist-era anti-Semitic organizations were shot. Possession of anti-Semitic literature was considered serious crime. This was not just some empty rhetoric, Stalin's quotation is important. --DonaldDuck (talk) 02:42, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

@DonaldDuck, a bit late to this, how do we reconcile this to Stalin himself being an anti-Semite (per Khrushchev)? PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 03:05, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Image

Image showing Trotsky, Sverdlov and Zinoviev is good illustration for "Jews in the revolutionary movement" section. If there are too many images in the article, then American New Year card (trivial image), or photo of Sergey Brin (left USSR at the age of six, more American Jew then Russian) should be removed. --DonaldDuck (talk) 06:33, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

It's a picture with a whole bunch of small faces, many not Jewish. A picture of Trotsky (by far the best known) would be better. The postcard is actually of more value, in terms of the social history of the vast majority of Russian Jews, and Brin is one of the most famous (and successful) Russian Jews alive today. Jayjg 06:52, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

No, for encyclopedia, documentary photograph that depict real event have more value, compared to postcard with artwork. Brin is famous, but this article is about Jews in Russia, not American Jews. --DonaldDuck (talk) 07:06, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

I do not have strong opinions about keeping or removing images of any people here. As about image in question, it tells "2nd Congress of Soviets", not "Jews at 2nd Congress of Soviets". Hence I tend to agree with Jayig that image is not really relevant. Biophys (talk) 12:53, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree that Brin's picture could be removed, but even then, there are still to many images here, and as Biophys points out, the image isn't an appropriate one. And social histories are not just about pictures of people; other images are at least equally (and typically more) valuable. A face is just a face, two eyes, two ears, a nose and a mouth - not much can be learned about the History of the Jews in Russia from that. Jayjg 18:53, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Image of table (File:Soviet Jews participation in WW2.png) may be removed. Relevant figure from this table (1,8% of military decorations were awarded to Jewish soldiers) may be added to article text. --DonaldDuck (talk) 02:58, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

The table gives a huge amount of information about lots of Russian Jews. The image shows a few tiny faces of a mix of Jews and non-Jews. Jayjg 23:31, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Incomplete regarding initial invasion of Eastern Europe/Baltics by the USSR

The article does not mention that Jews suffered, proportionally as a percentage of (ethnic) population, more than any other nationality in Stalin's mass deportations from the Baltics (and likely Poland, although I don't know the figures there) prior to the Nazi Germany invasion and the Holocaust. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 19:39, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

I would say, those who were exiled were the luckiest Jews: while most deported Jews survived in exile, the Jews who stayed had been murdered by Nazi (frequently with assistance of local population). That was a rare case when Stalin's repressions helped to save lives of those who had been repressed. I personally knew a Polish Jew who survived in exile (he spent the first part of the war in one Ural city), whereas all his family, 22 persons, perished in Nazi camps.--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:30, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Jews deported in the mass deportation just prior to the German invasion were taken away to the harshest camps and conditions. Recall, Khrushchev testified in later years to Stalin being a rabid anti-Semite. "Frequence" of local assistance, unfortunately, served the purposes, both real and propagandic, of both the Nazis and Soviets. For example, regarding the extermination of Jews in one town in Lithuania, the official Nazi report blames the locals whereas a German eyewitness wrote to Berlin (both reports in German archives) regarding the same massacre that if word got out it was a small German commando unit that did the exterminating it would not look good for the Nazis. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 02:50, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Re "Jews deported in the mass deportation just prior to the German invasion were taken away to the harshest camps and conditions." I have no idea where did you take it from. Re Stalin antisemitism, that is true only for the post-war period. Re massacres of the Jews in Lithuania, most of them were orchestrated by Nazi, however, the fact that many Lithuanians participated in them with great enthusiasm is hard to deny.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:09, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Odd how Liz Holtzman once stated all Latvians are Nazis--while scholarship indicates a number somewhere in the 300-1,000 range (Arajs Commando and related) as I recall, it's been a while since I read up on the subject. Whereas no one every labels the French all Nazis, although 38,000 Vichy collaborators were convicted. Convicting in the court of popular perception is far more effective than convicting in the court of law, apparently. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 03:00, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

The statement "All (any nation name) are Nazi" is by definition false (this is not true even for the Germans themselves), so I think we can safely ignore such opinions. Of course, if that is really what this author says.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:09, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

@Paul. Please see A Travel to the Land Ze-Ka, probably one of the best books about Gulag. Author was a Polish Jews who described in much detail how other Polish Jews (and others) perished in Gulag. Biophys (talk) 04:06, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Please see the Ellman's article I cited on the Gulag talk page: witness testimonies are not good sources for general conclusions, and they frequently give distorted pictures, per this historian. In addition, a major part of the population of the annexed territories was exiled, not imprisoned in Gulag. --Paul Siebert (talk) 04:09, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Russian text of the book. Biophys (talk) 04:23, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Regretfully, all of what he writes is true, however, is it sufficient to make generalisations you do?

"Furthermore, the use of unofficial sources introduces an important bias into our study of Soviet repression and penal policy, in favour of politicals and against criminals. Although only a minority of the inhabitants of the Gulag were officially classified as 'counterrevolutionaries'( although, as is agreed by all the participants in this debate, the division between criminals and politicals was blurred under Soviet conditions), the unofficial or literary sources mainly derive directly or indirectly from the politicals and hence give a one-sided picture. In these sources criminals figure mainly as a hostile and dangerous element, rather than as, say, themselves victims of rapid and violent social change. A former NKVD official has observed of Solzhenitsyn's writings that they give 'the impression that the prisoners of the Gulag were mainly political prisoners. This is not so. The overwhelming majority of prisoners were criminals" (Ellman Europe-Asia Studies, Vol. 54, No. 7 (Nov., 2002), pp. 1151-1172).--Paul Siebert (talk) 05:30, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

It's also well documented that in Latvia, percentage-wise, no ethnic group suffered more than Jews in the first mass deportation. None of the victims of mass deportations were "criminals." The decimation of Jewish community leadership: civic, merchant, professional, political, left them ill-prepared to deal with and organize when the Nazi invasion and Holocaust arrived a week later. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 03:17, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Eisenstein not Jewish!

Sergei Eisenstein was not Jewish, he is a person with Jewish heritage including his picture with such Jews as Shalom Aleichem is misleading and inappropriate on an article about soviet Jewry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.65.132.139 (talk) 07:16, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

about birth certificate

On the photo of Soviet birth certificate («Свидетельство о рождении») written not ethnicity of a child but ethnisity of his father («еврей») and of his mother («еврейка»). Also I just look in my internal passport and see no ethnisity. From RussiaMysterybeing (talk) 16:55, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Work on the collage

I did some work on the collage. I added Anton Rubinstein (it doesnt matter his family converted, many did it because there was no other choice and ethnically he's still a Jew) and replaced Kasparov with Botvinnik (Kasparov is half ethnically Jewish but we don't know what he thinks of his identity). Also, It had 3 rows of 3 people and one row of 2 people, instead I made it 3 rows of 4 people and I think it looks better now. That's what we have now:

Sholom Aleichem • Isaac Levitan • Leon Bakst • Sergey Brin
Golda Meir • Marc Chagall • Osip Mandelstam • Mikhail Botvinnik
Sergei Eisenstein • Lev Landau • Isaac Asimov • Anton Rubinstein

I read the discussion on top and it was suggested to add Trotsky and few more people. I don't fine it a bad idea, but wouldn't some people find it controversial? And if we do add it, how? Should we add a new row of 4 and add 4 new people or just add one person to each of the existing rows so we will have 3 rows of 5 people? Waiting for comments! Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 10:49, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

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