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This page is not a forum for general discussion about "verifiability" as a concept. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this page. You may wish to ask factual questions about "verifiability" as a concept at the Reference desk.

view · edit Frequently asked questions Questions Where should I ask whether this source supports this statement in an article? At Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. Don't forget to tell the editors the full name of the source and the exact sentence it is supposed to support. Do sources have to be free, online and/or conveniently available to me? No. Sources can be expensive, print-only, or available only in certain places. A source does not stop being reliable simply because you personally aren't able to obtain a copy. See Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/cost. If you need help verifying that a source supports the material in the article, ask for help at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Resource Exchange or a relevant WikiProject. Do sources have to be in English? No. Sources can be written in any language. However, if equally good sources in English exist, they will be more useful to our readers. If you need help verifying that a non-English source supports the material in the article, ask for help at Misplaced Pages:Translators available. I personally know that this information is true. Isn't that good enough to include it? No. Misplaced Pages includes only what is verifiable, not what someone believes is true. It must be possible to provide a bibliographic citation to a published reliable source that says this. Your personal knowledge or belief is not enough. I personally know that this information is false. Isn't that good enough to remove it? Your personal belief or knowledge that the information is false is not sufficient for removal of verifiable and well-sourced material. Is personal communication from an expert a reliable source? No. It is not good enough for you to talk to an expert in person or by telephone, or to have a written letter, e-mail message, or text message from a source. Reliable sources must be published. Are there sources that are "always reliable" or sources that are "always unreliable"? No. The reliability of a source is entirely dependent on the context of the situation, and the statement it is being used to support. Some sources are generally better than others, but reliability is always contextual. What if the source is biased? Sources are allowed to be biased or non-neutral; sometimes these are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a controversial subject. However, the resulting Misplaced Pages articles must maintain a neutral point of view. Does every single sentence need to be followed by an inline citation? No. Only four broad categories of material need to be supported by inline citations. Editors need not supply citations for perfectly obvious material. However, it must be possible to provide a bibliographic citation to a published reliable source for all material. Are sources required in all articles? Adding sources is the best practice, but prior efforts to officially require at least one source have been rejected by the community. See, e.g., discussions in January 2024 and March 2024. Are reliable sources required to name the author? No. Many reliable sources, such as government and corporate websites, do not name their authors or say only that it was written by staff writers. Although many high-quality sources do name the author, this is not a requirement. Are reliable sources required to provide a list of references? No. Misplaced Pages editors should list any required sources in a references or notes section. However, the sources you are using to write the Misplaced Pages article do not need to provide a bibliography. Most reliable sources, such as newspaper and magazine articles, do not provide a bibliography. Does anyone read the sources? Readers do not use the reference list extensively. This research indicates that readers click somewhere in the list of references approximately three times out of every 1,000 page views.

The project page associated with this talk page is an official policy on Misplaced Pages. Policies have wide acceptance among editors and are considered a standard for all users to follow. Please review policy editing recommendations before making any substantive change to this page. Always remember to keep cool when editing, and don't panic.

See WP:PROPOSAL for Misplaced Pages's procedural policy on the creation of new guidelines and policies. See how to contribute to Misplaced Pages guidance for recommendations regarding the creation and updating of policy and guideline pages.

The Verifiability page is frequently reverted in good faith. Don't be offended if your edit is reverted: try it out on the Workshop page, then offer it for consensus here, before editing the actual project page.

There has been a great deal of discussion about the lead section of the verifiability policy over the years. If you want to discuss changing its wording, please first read the 2012 request for comments and the previous discussion about the first sentence. Thank you for your cooperation.

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NPOV & verifiability

I'd like to call attention to this little section of the article that deals with the relationship between verifiability and NPOV:

Sources themselves do not need to maintain a neutral point of view. Indeed, many reliable sources are not neutral. Our job as editors is simply to summarize what the reliable sources say.

If a reliable source is indeed not neutral, does that mean that we should present it in a non-neutral POV? Is "our job as editors" to still report it with a biased POV? Or, if this is the case, should we report it with the POV, and then be sure to use quotations or the name of the author? Charles35 (talk) 16:36, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

( The above excerpt is from Misplaced Pages:V#Neutrality. --Bob K31416 (talk) 22:33, 3 December 2012 (UTC) )

Balance requires reporting the different substantial points of view. Honesty requires letting the reader know that we've done that. Neither requires the wp:OR step of characterizing them as biased. We need only make it clear that X says Sx and Y says Sy. We don't compare their points of view, the intelligent reader can do that without our help. If neutral Z has published comments on the differences (Sx vs. Sy), we can further report Sz. LeadSongDog come howl! 16:57, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't think I fully understand. If it is clearly a biased view, you should present it as if it weren't? You shouldn't quote it or attribute it? And you said the intelligent reader - what about the fact that some, if not most, readers are not all that intelligent. Shouldn't we keep in mind wikipedia's audience and write for them? Lastly, I'm really interested to hear what you mean with "honesty". Would you be able to elaborate on that? Thanks Charles35 (talk) 20:02, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

No, if it is clearly biased, first we ask if it is worth using at all. If despite being biased, it represents a widely held viewpoint that needs to be represented in order for the articles coverage to be balanced then we make it clear whose viewpoint it is by in-text attribution, but we do not ghettoize the authors by describing them as "advocates", "opponents", etc. We provide balance by similarly covering the opposing viewpoints. However, if an objective secondary source discusses both of the biased viewpoints, then we are far better to look to that objective secondary source than to draw our own conclusions on which aspects of the slanted coverage deserve inclusion. See wp:BALANCE. It is not our job to form opinions for our readers. We simply report (in an encyclopedically structured fashion) the best of what others have already published on a topic. LeadSongDog come howl! 21:49, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

The simple principle is that the Misplaced Pages article should be neutral, regardless of its sources. --Bob K31416 (talk) 23:21, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

• Here's an example for the OP. Donald Trump has repeatedly stated that he believes that Barack Obama's birth location is in doubt (a stance popularly known as the birthers). Now, Trump has written about this. His own writing is a reliable source for what he has to say: We can trust him to state his own beliefs, so his own writing on the matter is reliable for us to use in the Donald Trump article to note his position. However, is own writings on Barack Obama's birth status are NOT themselves neutral. That doesn't mean we can use them nowhere on Misplaced Pages. The fact that Trump is a "birther" is reliably sourced to his own writings on the fact, and that's OK to cite is writings for that purpose. Does that make sense? --Jayron32 23:31, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Umm, sort of. I don't think it's that I don't get your explanation. I think the rules aren't as complete as we like to think and that there is a lot that is ambiguous. Or maybe it's just impossible to make a perfect set of rules for general cases. This is why I made this section. I thought that maybe it might be a good idea to add something between Indeed, many reliable sources are not neutral and our job as editors is simply to summarize what the reliable sources say. I thought it might be helpful to say how we should summarize sources that aren't neutral. ie should we attribute? How should we attribute? In-line citation or saying the actual person's name in the text? Should we quote? Most importantly: in the case where we are not in-material attributing (we can be parenthetically citing, however) or quoting, and are presenting the data as fact, or the opinion as a factual one (ie not saying anything like "it has been said" or "many believe") should we modify the material to make it more reasonable or less biased without removing all bias in an effort to make it more appropriate for wikipedia? For example:

Ensuring of the proper feeling rules of the breast cancer culture is encouraged, including remaining optimistic of a full cure, rationalizing the selfishness of treatment as a temporary measure and feeling guilty that it forces her to put her needs momentarily above the needs of others or due to her perceived inadequacy in caring her family or other women with cancer (Sulik 2010, pages 225–272, 277).

This material is presented as fact. It is cited but not attributed in the material (ie it doesn't say "Sulik says that..."). It is reflective of the source, but in my opinion, it is way to extreme. Is it really worth it to include all of this bias? Or should this be summarized into a lesser biased form that effectively conveys the idea in a less harsh and inappropriate manner? Charles35 (talk) 05:05, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

The decision of whether to quote in full or to summarize is really a matter of WP:Undue weight... not one of WP:Verifiability. Blueboar (talk) 13:34, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

In a case like this it's also a matter of WP:V, that the references must justify the conclusions. It is improper use of a source to use it as a general statement unless it's a recognized tertiary authority. Sulik's book is intended to argue a point,not present a neutral summary. DGG ( talk ) 00:36, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Burden of proof

One occasionaly comes across editors who want to delete all unreferenced material regardless of whether they believe it to be unverifiable or not. We already have in policy the statement "When tagging or removing material on these grounds, make it clear that you have a concern that the material itself is unverifiable. If instead you think the material is verifiable, it is better to try to provide an inline citation yourself before considering whether to remove or tag it." Going round tagging and deleting in a mechanical bureaucratic fashion is merely makework for editors, or else results in loss of valuable material when no one bothers to respond. I would like to add something stronger to the policy such as,

Removing material solely for lacking citations where you have no real concern that it is unverifiable can be considered disruptive

to make it clear that tagging and deleting should only be happening when there is a genuine belief that the material might be problematic. There does not need to be a time limit to provide sources for material that is entirely uncontroversial and factual. SpinningSpark 22:02, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

I would support doing that. (By the way, there was just an edit to that section that was reverted, and I agree with the revert.) --Tryptofish (talk) 22:19, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

I support. BTW, I did the revert. I agreed with the spirit of what they are trying to do, but as worded it could be utilized as creating an exception to wp:ver for new articles, IMO that is going too far. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 22:23, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

• I also support an addition along these lines. NTox · talk 01:36, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose The line is horrible and nothing but instruction creep. "No real concern" can never be proven and would creat FAR MORE drama than what it is proposed to avoid. There have been some recent situations were everyone was already too afraid to touch a BLP that was nothing but unsourced claims. So horrid was this article that Jimbo had to step in and reduce it to a stub. This is not the route to go. It creates massive amounts of issues when entire articles are missing reliable sources. Right now people still believe that a primary source is sufficient to add claims they synthesize from reading between the lines or assuming information and then become even more disruptive the those attempting to remove it. No, we do not need to add this line , or any other to protect unsourced claims on Misplaced Pages. Source it or lose it.--Amadscientist (talk) 01:45, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
• Support the intent, but that wording needs to be fixed; too easy to be gamed by the wikilaywers. --MASEM (t) 01:56, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose Changing policy to require us to guess what is in the mind of the remover is not going to end well. The current practice also serves neatly to end arguments over whether a claim is sourceable or not, if its not sourced, it can be removed, and the person arguing that it is sourceable can then go source it and restore it. Monty₈₄₅ 02:05, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

We're not requesting to guess what is in mind of the remover. We're requesting that the remover follows the current guidelines and states it explicitly. And "if its not sourced, it can be removed" is not the current policy; there are important nuances that deleters too often ignore but that are important. Diego (talk) 08:05, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose - In most cases, I actually find the complaints about the removal of unsourced information to be more disruptive than the removal itself. By far, the easiest and least disruptive solution to editors who remove unsourced text is to quietly return the material with a citation. Nine times out of ten, doing so will take no more than five minutes of searching the internet (far less time and energy than it takes to complain about the removal in the first place). Blueboar (talk) 02:28, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

In reply to some of the above: I don't think the intent of the line is to defend unsourced information. Rather, it is to remind us that a "no source?→delete" style of editing is not appropriate. There are a lot of people who do this kind of automaton whitewash; others I think even like to "stick it" to people by removing their content for not being sourced, even though it was verifiable the whole time. The end goal is always verifiability and it's not sources. Sources merely prove verifiability, but again what we care about is verifiability, proof or not. If someone has no doubt that some piece of content is verifiable they should not be removing it simply because it has no source. And for any other person who actually does doubt the content's verifiability, well then it's business as usual and the person can remove it for not having the source. The proposed line would not make removing content any harder. It's only there to remind us why we're removing stuff in the first place. NTox · talk 02:34, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

In reply to those that don't think this is about the removal of unsourced content....then we are fine without the change. Not broken...don't try to fix it.--Amadscientist (talk) 02:38, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

The guideline is fine, the problem is that people with your position are not following it as it's written. Diego (talk) 10:10, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Whack! You've been whacked with a wet trout. Don't take this too seriously. Someone just wants to let you know that you did something silly.

You have been trouted for: Thats a huge and innacurate assumption.--Amadscientist (talk) 11:37, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Trout assimilated :-P I've striked the wording that I thought assertive but sounds offensive. I do have a concern that you seem to miss an important part of WP:BURDEN and WP:V, the bit about due process and using the power of Wiki. I don't have time now to describe its implications, I'll try to elaborate on it tonight. Diego (talk) 11:48, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

I am reading everything you write so I am sure I will see it when you post, however I should at least mention that I actually understand your concern, but feel you are placing a requirement where none exist. That is my actual concern with the replies you are making about "due process". There is a process and I feel we should let that play out with all situations regarding the removal of content. V does allow (by policy) the removal of unsourced content. Does that mean it should be? Maybe not in some cases, but the majority of content removal is being done in good faith. When it is obvious that it is not, is when we need the process even more. Part of all of this is that editing is part of consensus forming. Placing too many limits or to many suggestions of what is "proper" (but still not required) only confuses editors and makes working on articles more complicated.--Amadscientist (talk) 12:11, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't want to place too many limits, I want the policies and guidelines to explain why placing tags and moving content to talk page is preferred over deleting it and having it lost in the history page. The main concern about what I want to elaborate is that deleted content is "out of sight, out of mind" and this harms the article building process, because editors coming later (maybe years) will not be able to find it and source it. Acting upon this preference to preserve and help is already part of the rules, not an additional requirement. Diego (talk) 12:19, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose. As Amadscientist wrote above, the bottom line is "source it or lose it", and it should remain that way. The proposed change would effectively invert the burden, by placing the onus on the remover to demonstrate that the material was unverifiable. Proving a negative is very difficult, so this would generate a lot of drama. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 07:48, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
• Support although Masem has a good point about wording. It is not "source it or lose it" but "if it is contested, you need to source it or lose it", and thus, the lack of sourcing can never be an essential part of whether a statement is contested or not: BURDEN has always required a good-faith belief that something is wrong before removal. Jclemens (talk) 07:52, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

No, not really. Burden is clear: "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and is satisfied by providing a reliable source that directly supports the material." It then goes on to say: "Attribute all quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged to a reliable, published source using an inline citation." These two statements do not mean the same thing. The second line is refering to HOW to meet burden. Only material that is likely to be challenged should be cited. What that means is: unquestionable facts do not need a reference. The very first line makes it clear that returning unsourced material that has been removed, must meet burden as well. So if it is removed and you put it back....you MUST provide a reference. Your claim that: "the lack of sourcing can never be an essential part of whether a statement is contested or not" is beside the point. Removing content is not contesting it. It is just removing it as unsourced and "questionable". It is not required (nor should it be) that an editor formally "contest" the information. That is wikilawyering. Our current policy is to remove uncourced information.......not create a discussion to contest the validity of said information. Would that be nice in a perfect world? Perhaps, but it also limits the removal of unsourced content, which is exactly what this proposal is about. Oh....and Masem didn't say "Source it or lose it". I did.--Amadscientist (talk) 08:36, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

(inserting a reply) - Re: "Only material that is likely to be challenged should be cited." No... WP:BURDEN applies to more than material that is likely to be challenged; it also applies to material that has been challenged. Removal for lack of citation is a form of challenge. Blueboar (talk) 13:19, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

The very first line makes it clear that returning unsourced material that has been removed, must meet burden as well. I don't think anyone is contesting that part; I certainly don't. The problem is with how material is being removed, not returned.

Our current policy is to remove unsourced information See, that unqualified assertion is false. That some people holds that misunderstanding is the reason why we're trying to clarify for you what V really means and how it must be used. There are important procedural reasons why the intermediate steps (trying to source disputed content yourself, tagging it if you can't, WP:PRESERVEing at talk pages) must be followed, even if the final result (removing unverifiable information) is the same. Those steps help us to build an encyclopedia step by step through the Wiki process, and short-cutting them is harmful. I don't want to stimulate the battleground mentality ; that's why I oppose the original wording that tried to tag you as being disruptive. Though I think it's important that those opposing this change recognize the need to protect the process by which unverified information is assessed as either to be removed or to be sourced; that process is an important part of the current WP:V, WP:BURDEN and WP:PRESERVE policies. I'll try to expand on these thoughts latter to explain you the full benefits of the process. Diego (talk) 10:10, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

"Any material lacking a reliable source directly supporting it may be removed". That is "qualified". It is what the policy states.--Amadscientist (talk) 11:33, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes, and right after that it describes the proper process to remove it. It doesn't include "instantly, without reason". The only unverified material that can be instantly removed without a reasonable effort to assess its verifiability is BLP; the rest of policies do have requirements to make an effort not to simply lose it; so "source it or lose it" is actually against policy for content removed without care. Diego (talk) 12:14, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Some comments to the opposers:

• This proposal does not affect the policy regarding BLPs; that remains separate. The following paragraph, opening with "However, do not leave unsourced or poorly sourced material in an article if it might damage the reputation of living people" makes that quite clear. If anything, my proposal is emphasising that by making the difference with BLPs seem even more dramatic.
• It is not the intention here to give an opening to wikilawyering or require us to "guess what is in the mind" of editors. Rather, it is aimed at good faith editors who openly declare this is what they are doing. Suggestions for better wording would be welcome.

SpinningSpark 07:54, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

While it is nice that you explained this here it makes no difference what your intent is....the proposed line DOES actually say "..where you have no real concern". That is indeed an assumption one cannot make of another editor. It assumes bad faith.--Amadscientist (talk) 08:41, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

• Support BURDEN applies to material challenged or likely challenged, not to all material; removers of content need to make clear that they're removing it on grounds of verifiability; and that they've reasonably certain that sources can't be found - otherwise the correct way according to policy is to tag it as needing citation, not to delete it. It's only and additional clarification of the actual existing requirement to identify the reason why the content is being challenged. Requesting more communication can only be a good thing for consensus-building.

I would include in the text the reason stated by SpinningSpark, that challenged but verifiable content is in risk of being lost, and not the explicit claim that removing content is disruptive if that you don't really think it is unverifiable. Diego (talk) 08:05, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

This misses the point of challenged or likely challenged as simply being unquestionable fact. "The sun rises in the east and sets in the west". You said: "removers of content need to make clear that they're removing it on grounds of verifiability; and that they've reasonably certain that sources can't be found". No, they don't. All editor really NEED to do is not remove unquestionable facts that any reasonable person understands as a fact and make sure they have added an edit summary (we cannot force what that edit summary says, but should be a reasonable explanation). What you are suggesting is that policy requires all removal of content to be thoughly researched. It simply does not say that. That is the requirement of those that add information.

Jimbo Wales states: I really want to encourage a much stronger culture which says: it is better to have no information, than to have information like this, with no sources. Any editor who removes such things, and refuses to allow it back without an actual and appropriate source, should be the recipient of a barnstar. – Jimbo Wales, 19 July 2006

1. Wales, Jimmy (2006-07-19). "insist on sources". WikiEN-l. Retrieved 2007-01-31.

--Amadscientist (talk) 08:58, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

What you are suggesting is that policy requires all removal of content to be thoughly researched. Not really; if you don't want to research the fact, you're expected to tag it as needing verification better than removing it. Only if you have made a reasonable attempt to assess its verifiability should you remove it; I think the very minimum to comply with the it is better to try to provide an inline citation yourself before considering whether to remove or tag it part of BURDEN would be a Google search. Diego (talk) 10:16, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Uhm...no. Some editor expectations are simply inncorrect. There simply is no requirement to do that. The policy is: "Editors might object if you remove material without giving them time to provide references; consider adding a citation needed tag as an interim step" This is simply not an expectation per policy, but per certain editors. No offense to those that expect this...but if you claim one MUST tag before removal as the method of allowing time for the source to be added.......that is not accurate. Also, there is no "comply" with it is better to.--Amadscientist (talk) 10:31, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Well, there is a requirement to preserve verifiable content even if unsourced, and to help build WP:CONSENSUS with your fellow editors; and deleting unsourced content without proper consideration goes against both. I'm not requiring to tag all content before removing it; only the one that you're not willing to research yourself. "Do not remove good information solely because it is poorly presented" is a mandate per WP:PRESERVE; if the fact would belong in a "finished" article, you're breaching policy by simply removing it. Diego (talk) 10:37, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Is that a requirement? First of all the section is titled "Try to fix problems, which is a suggestion and does not assume that every editor is capable of doing so (you must rememeber that policy is made to accommodate all levels of experiance and knowledge, not just experts) Verifiability "means that people reading and editing the encyclopedia can check that information comes from a reliable source". If the content cannot be varified with a reliable source the information need not be preserved. WP:PRESERVE is absolutely not a requirement not to remove unsourced content...at all. "hey should (not "must") be retained if they meet the requirements of the three core content policies (Neutral point of view, Verifiability and No original research)". What many here are trying to say is that "verifiability" is not an actual RS added as an inline citation to content, but only that there be a reliable source out there somewhere. This is true (even Jimbo has weighed in on this as accurate). HOWEVER the problem is...nowhere is there an actual requirement to keep unsourced information just because there is a RS out there somewhere. This is simply a fight over who has the most responsibility to add that RS. WP:PRESERVE "Problems that may justify removal" state clearly that "WP:Verifiability discusses handling unsourced and contentious material." Yes it does, it says "Any material lacking a reliable source directly supporting it may be removed. Whether and how quickly this should happen depends on the material and the overall state of the article." This current proposal CREATES a problem by telling editors that removing unsourced information could be disruptive. Sure...but we do not need a policy to state that. All kinds of things cause disruption. Just editing a page can cause disruption...but that doesn't mean it was the edit that caused it.--Amadscientist (talk) 11:27, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose This will lead to far more drama and editwars than the present pratice. The Banner _talk 13:01, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Note

I feel it should be noted that SpinningSpark, the proposer of this change, is currently involved in an RFC that could be directly impacted by whether or not this change is made. Doniago (talk) 15:39, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Its "burden of evidence, not "burden of proof"

By the way.......it is not burden of proof. It is "burden of evidence". There is a difference and this is a red flag that the proposer is not quite aware of what the burden policy is referring to. Many editors will argue that "burden" is not met even with a RS provided believing that it is not meeting a "burden of proof" that the information is accurate. We don't prove the information. We simply reference it with relaible sources. If you have not provided the source...you have not met the burden. Period.--Amadscientist (talk) 10:44, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Continuing the responses to the original proposal

• Strongly oppose Indeed, I oppose the sentence that is there already. Unsupported material should be subject to being removed, especially (but not only) if it has been {{fact}}-tagged or similarly tagged for a reasonable period of time. We are doing our readers an injustice and not fulfilling our primary objectives by presenting material which is not verified. The material may be, as Spinningspark suggests, "entirely uncontroversial and factual" but how is our reader to know that? Finally, we judge edits, not editors, and this opens up inquiry into motivations. The existing "make it clear that you have a concern" already opens that inquiry up more than it should, creates nothing more than a knee-jerk bureaucratic burden, and ought to be removed. We need to return to the simplicity described by Blueboar in this edit. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 17:28, 18 December 2012 (UTC)