Talk:Homosexuality - Misplaced Pages

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Epigenetics

Should there be information included in the article with regards to epigenetics and homosexuality? The Quarterly Review of Biology by the University of Chicago has published a book stating a new theory on it.Ylsuomynona (talk) 11:51, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Homosexuality as an orientation has in no definitive physiological research been proven as fact.

To classify homosexual preference as an "orientation," inferring a biological predisposition, is an error that needs to be corrected immediately. Yes, some might like to believe that one's sexual orientation is determined "in the genes," but there has been no substantiated research to date that holds up to a rigorous muster of this hypothesis.* A homosexual preference is no different than a bi-sexual preference or for that matter a heterosexual preference. While there is an innate drive to reproduce and nurture one's species, a sexual preference can be claimed by anyone as a preferred choice of sexual gratification, pleasure or leisure. It seems that social, cultural or religious taboos are the only arbiters of preferred sexual practices in societies that, for example, restrict or ban sexual behavior other than an accepted heterosexual (being most general here for argumentative purposes) norm.

If anyone thinks this idea is spot-on, or just nuts, please feel free to validate or forward material that substantiates either opinion.

Thanks,

Jantoine01 (talk) 03:23, 31 December 2012 (UTC) JJ Maumee OH

HOMOSEXUALITY - An Analysis of Biological Theories of Causation

Dr . Tahir I jaz, M.D., Winnipeg, Canada

See WP:NOTFORUM. Thanks. — Jess· Δ ♥ 21:03, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

"Romantic, sexual attraction"

MrX, regarding this revert, I don't understand your reasoning. The wording that you reverted to -- "romantic, sexual attraction -- which is not the long-standing wording or the wording used by the sources, implies that "romantic" and "sexual" go hand in hand. While they often do, that of course is not always the case. You are thinking of "or" as exclusive. But the word "or" doesn't have to be exclusive. See WP:ANDOR. It is important to stress that, like the sources do, homosexuality may refer to romantic feelings, sexual feelings or sexual behavior. Not imply that either automatically comes with the other. I would have suggested we use "and/or," like the American Psychological Association does, and the lead used to do, but the WP:ANDOR guideline is why the combination "and/or" was removed from the lead some time ago. Flyer22 (talk) 22:25, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

The meaning I read from the current construct: "Homosexuality is romantic, sexual attraction or sexual activity between members of the same sex or gender." would seem to mean and/or, whereas I would read your version (or between each definition) to be exclusive or.

The guide states:

Where more than two possibilities are presented, from which a combination is to be selected, it is even less desirable to use and/or. With two possibilities, at least the intention is clear; but with more than two it may not be. Instead of x, y, and/or z, use an appropriate alternative, such as one or more of x, y, and z; some or all of x, y, and z.

Perhaps the lead sentence should read: "Homosexuality is any combination of romantic attraction, sexual attraction or sexual activity between members of the same sex or gender."

I think I agree with your intended meaning, but feel free to whack me with clue-by-four if I am still missing the point. - Mr X 22:46, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

ETA: An early version of this sentence...

"Homosexuality is romantic or sexual attraction or behavior between members of the same sex or gender."

would be more clear as...

"Homosexuality is romantic or sexual, attraction or behavior between members of the same sex or gender."

meaning...

Homosexuality is romantic attraction and/or romantic behavior and/or sexual attraction and/or sexual behavior.

- Mr X 23:00, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining your feelings. I'm not fond of the WP:ANDOR guideline because of problems such as these. Sometimes, using "and/or" is simply needed. So I definitely understand how you and others could read "or" to only be exclusive, even though the links I pointed to above show that "or" should not be automatically thought of as exclusive, and I'm sure that most people will know that we mean any of the aspects can be exclusive or combined. I don't agree with "any combination of," however, because it's suggesting that none of them can exist alone.

I propose that we use your wording without "any combination of," since your proposal is clearer by having added "attraction" to "romantic," leaves out the extra "or," and since, as stated, the word "or" can be inclusive; there's no reason that readers should take it to mean that we are being exclusive. It's well known that homosexuality involves these three aspects and that these three aspects are often felt simultaneously. But if you feel that it is necessary to stress the combination possibility, we could do like the Sexual orientation article currently does, so that the line is as follows: "Homosexuality is romantic attraction, sexual attraction, or sexual activity—or some combination of these—between members of the same sex or gender."

I don't see how "Homosexuality is romantic or sexual, attraction or behavior between members of the same sex or gender." would be more clear. In that example, "attraction" is separated from "romantic or sexual" by a comma and is therefore ambiguous; "attraction" could mean anything by itself. Flyer22 (talk) 23:23, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree that (1st) suggestion is an improvement, and sufficiently clear, so I have made the edit to the article. - Mr X 23:36, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Okay, thanks. I'll go ahead and do this at the Heterosexuality and Bisexuality articles as well. Flyer22 (talk) 23:38, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Evolution of homosexuality

I suggest a section on the evolution of homosexuality be included into the article. It is after all a seeming paradox: if homosexual people tend to have fewer children, why hasn't homosexuality been strongly selected against? There are many assumptions that go into this question, all of which I feel should be in the article, e.g.

The idea that homosexuality can be strongly selected against assumes that homosexuality is genetic. This does appear to be so (see main article).
The idea that homosexual people tend to have fewer children may not be true. Nonetheless from my searching it appears that although some homosexuals do have children, as a group homosexuals do indeed have fewer children.
Maybe homosexuality is selected against but not strongly selected against, so it exists. This implies that homosexuality will eventually become extinct. This is addressed in some of the articles I've seen from cursory searches.

Possible sources:

Haven't looked at those sources. Do any contemplate the scenario of homosexuals being part of an extended family, providing better care for children who are related but not directly their own? HiLo48 (talk) 08:01, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

The problem the OP is having is that "genetic" is not the same as "hereditary". All sources indicate that the percentage of children of heterosexual parents who are gay is the same, with a negligible difference, as those of homosexual parent(s). Black Kite (talk) 14:29, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Cause section

At the beginning of the section it is stated that the main articles concerning the cause of homosexuality are Biology and sexual orientation and Environment and sexual orientation. My proposal is that we use the lead paragraphs of these two articles to make an introductory paragraph, or couple of paragraphs for this section. If there are no objections I will proceed.--Auró (talk) 19:27, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

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