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HJ, are you seriously suggesting that Napoleon and the Book of Revelation have something to do with understanding modern European history? That he was the first to 'takeover' Europe? The first to destroy pre-existing kingdoms? --MichaelTinkler
To MichaelTinkler I look at all sources and the Book of Revelation speaks of 1000 year occurances. There are many things happening that are not easily explained by scientific method. In other words many more things happen, than people rationally can understand. I am open . {{H. Jonat]]
No. All of this is quite easily accessible to rational understanding. The book of Revelation in chapter 20 speaks of A 1000 years. One. Just one. The idea of 1000 year periods is an early Christian interpretation of the Book of Revelation in light of Psalm 90 ("For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night") in which the 6 days of creation plus the original day of rest (the 7th day) are compared to 7 millennia - and the idea is that the millennium of the book of Revelation will be the 7th, so that the transition between the 6th and the 7th will be the time of the antichrist. This was cross-referenced with the belief that the world was a fairly recent creation - that it was about 5500 years old when Christ was born, and therefore the year 6000 (the time of the antichrist) was coming SOON. Needless to say, it hasn't happened yet. I know a lot about this subject - it is my favorite kind of medieval exegesis. You, however, either have never known or have misremembered. My suggestion is that you drop it, or take a look at the work of Richard Landes (here's his web page: http://www.mille.org/people/rlpages/personlandes.html). --MichaelTinkler
To MichaelTinkler I glanced through the headlines and see that people are making studies of this.
Before the year 2000 people thought it is the time , as they thought before the year 1000. In 1800 people thought that is it , in 1900 they thought this is it and before 2100 they will think it again. It could have been and could be at any time , that is my thought.
Besides the 1000 year revelation Germans have a 100 year timeline, waiting for the time when Kaiser Barbarossa , emperor Frederik( combination of I and II) Red Beard wakes up from his long sleep in the Kyffhaueser mountain in Thuringia. He did wake up a while ago. H. Jonat
- HJ, yes, people 'thought this'. It could also mean that people fall for the same mistakes over and over again. It still doesn't make it 'what the book of Revelation says' - it only makes it a particularly useless interpretation thereof. --MichaelTinkler.
Basically it seems to want to convey the message, that any time , any day, could be the day. So be on your toes, so to speak ,all the time. H. Jonat
- Well, no. What you're offering is the orthodox interpretation based on the words of Christ ('no one knows the hour but the Father'), which is the official doctrine of the Catholic Church, among others. However, what millennialist thought always does is claim:
- the end is coming soon
- WE (the associates of the prophet) know the date
- be very afraid
- (and sometimes) sell all you have and follow ME (the prophet)
- That is the pattern clearly discerned in history. See Landes, to whom I referred you, and Norman Cohn, The Pursuit of the Millennium. These are accessible and in English. There is a large body of technical material on biblical interpretation both for itself (what you just did was an orthodox piece of biblical interpretation - 'the end may come any time so be prepared') and in history (what others have said, truly or erroneously). I do a lot of work with both types. Anytime someone says 1000 years, check your purse to make sure it's still there. --MichaelTinkler
Mrs. Jonat, please check Szopen/HREargument.
To szopen, I appreciate your enthusiasm and volumns of material and I would like to discuss, deliberate and point out the facts to you. However, in order to utilize the time I have available and in order to be able to continue my wikipedia input , I cannot get into extensive and detailed debates. I am restricted to occasional article input only without getting into lenghty debates. Best wishes H. Jonat
If so, then perhaps You should stop writing controversial and pseudohistorical articles about Poland, it's history, it's rulers and it's people. Always a friend, Mruk
To szopen and Mruk There is a Polish German Historical Institute in Warsaw . I suggest that you contact them with questions, the english language site is http://www.dhi.waw.pl/home_eng.html , also available in polish. At that place you should be able to get first hand information. Best wishes HJ
"The German Historical Institute in Warsaw (GHI) was founded in 1993. Like the German Historical Institutes in Rome, Paris, London, and Washington the GHI in Warsaw is financed by the German Ministry of Education and Research". Now why would I consider this a first hand information? Always an admirer, Mruk
Because there you have many Polish historians working. Fellow wikipedian Piotr checked this out and seems to think they are alright. Since you are actually there, you might go and visit them. I don't even know if they will give anwers per internet. If you get a chance to visit them, please let me know. Thanks HJ
I'm not there since 1990. After my family has been "repatriated" we all ended up in various parts of the world. We started in the "Recovered Lands" Wroclaw, Legnica, Bystrzyca, Ladek Zdroj, Karpacz, Boleslawiec etc. But by now we are pretty much all over the world. Mruk
I remember you wrote to me about your family. But you don't write where you actually live now. So I cannot refer you to sources other than the internet and whatever libraries and books you have available where you live. If you want to try finding family history records, you can search at the LDS FHC Latter Day Saints , Family History Center http://www.familysearch.com for church and civil records of the towns you or your ancestors have lived.FHC have libraries with computers and micro fiche in many countries, listed on internet. Family Historians are the opposite from other Historians. Family History is based on searching for any little clue available and not leaving any stone unturned in order to find your family records. I am searching for a person who remained in the homeland of Prussia despite all the greatest hardships put under during the Communist Polish and much worse Soviet Union time. Even though this person was born there and remained in the homeland,Germans under Poland were so far not allowed to get even their birth certificates.Your family knows about all this, but others don't or don't want to know. I get emails on my Family History website fromm all over the world too with people asking for any kind of clue. The verbal info is often the only thing available. Good luck in your search HJ
I'm in the States for some time, now. I have always heard a lot about people who decided to stay in the formerly German regions of Poland. Some of them were the "autochtones" - Poles who always lived there, keeping the language and culture alive, some were the Germans who did not want to leave the homeland of their ancestors. I've never heard of a law against speaking German, but then again, maybe I'm too young, it does sound like something that could've happen in the 40's and 50's. As far as my memories, I always remember, that during my summer vacations in the "Recovered Lands" (where I have a lot of family), I heard German language all the time. Mostly from tourists, though. But I know that a lot of retired German citizens were moving to Warmia i Mazury region, even as early as the 70's. I've met some of them myself, actually, in the summer of 1989 in the city of Goldap (right on the Polish / Soviet border). Me and my buddy were hanging out in the park. We still had about two hours for our bus to arrive. We started talking to this group of older people, warming up their bones in the sun. We talked to those very nice people for about half an hour, and let me tell you, they were no tourists. Just a bunch of Goldapians enjoying their retirement. The shock came after we said Good Bye and started walking towards the bus station. These people just started speaking German! All this time they spoke to us in fluent, accent free Polish, but when alone, they seemed to prefer German. I'll write again, right now I'm at work, believe it or not, so I have to go. Wszystkiego dobrego! (All the best for you!) Mruk
To Mruk , Milai ginnis kails Goldap is very close to were my father was born in Pillkallen. Unfortunately Pillkallen wound up in the Oblast Kaliningrad section of northern East Prussia. A recent traveler just wrote me, that Pillkallen is almost all distroyed and much worse than the part taken over by the Polish.Over one million Germans did remain after the 1945-49 expulsions. They were called autochthones by the polish officials. From what I read a lot of people from Ukraine have moved in and Wolga- Germans are moving into the northern part of East Prussia. The wikipedia does not want long discussions. Therefore it would be better if you send me an email ,to have some longer talk. I am debating too much already with people that do not have an inkling .So I better quit now. Greetings HJ.
No problem! However, I have no idea what "milai ginnis kails" means. Is it Lithuanian, or perhaps Old Prussian? Because German it rather is not. I'll write soon. Your friend from accross the Odra and Nysa Luzycka. Mruk
Old Prussian , milai mille a thousand, ginnis friend , kails hail. A thousand greetings to you friend.
HJ, I have been ignoring your entries for the last 2 days. The Enea Silvio Piccolomini was beyond my self-control, though. You went into a long and substantive entry, made a link to someone's birth name, and then wrote an entry you yourself admitted was 'a summary'. It took one of the most important Renaissance intellectuals, a man who eventually became Pope, and mentioned that he was an imperial secretary and the archibishop of Warmia? Get a grip! --MichaelTinkler.
Here's a little lesson in wikification, HJ. Please hit 'edit this page' to see how this works. You consistently mess up this formatting trick. --MichaelTinkler
You wrote this nonsense phrase:
- as Holy Roman Empire Elector of Saxony
When you meant (I think):
- as Elector of Saxony
It atually doesn't matter -- what WE say in English is Duke of Saxony, because we know that the Golden Bull (from the Latin Bulla or seal) of 1356 defined the Duke of Saxony as one of the Imperial Electors. However, if we wanted to mention that he was an elector, we would say, "Imperial Elector and Duke of Saxony" or something to that effect -- but not Elector of Saxony, because that makes no sense in English! JHK
- Ah, then it *should* be and Duke of ? --MichaelTinkler.
Rmhermen Hi, you stated a question about a Hohenzollern. We had added the Grosse Kurfuerst (great elector) earlier to differentiate him from the other later king of Prussia, Margrave of Brandenburg etc with the same name. I also added a note on the Hohenzollern page, that all Brandenburg Margraves were electors or son of . Check out the king of Prussia Friedrich Wilhelm I 1713-40 on Talk for all his actual titles , as a sample that all of them held many more titles and territories , which are generally not listed in casual mentioning of them. H. Jonat
My question was that when I look up the translation of Kurfurst, it translates to "a kind of duke" one of 3 or 4 kinds of dukes in German nobility. It does not mention anything about "elector".
To Rmhermen Read Holy Roman Empire Elector (HRE. SRI,HRR) ,where I had earlier listed the functions of the electors. The word Kur- fuerst earlier spelling Chur (zu kuehren) means in english - to elect to be crowned. Auserkoren is translated= having been (s)elected. The electors were the people whose function in the HRE it was to (s)elect the next German king ,who would then become emperor. Fuerst can not really be translated as duke, but that is what Americans often call them. Fuerst (earlier fyrst) is originated from being the First, the first one, the leader of the tribe of Germans or of the nation. I have seen Fuerst translated as prince also. But whenever you find the title Kurfuerst, that indicates one of the seven, later more, most important officers in the HRE. Their sons were also born Kurfuerst. The list of titles for king Friedrich Wilhelm I of Prussia, has again been moved to talk. If you have not been able to find it, that's where it is located at present. H. Jonat
To szopen Before this update I briefly saw some message from you, asking me to help with some project or something , that I can't find right now. I would not mind doing that. However you should approached JHK or Michael Tinkler. H. Jonat
1. HJ, I have been ignoring your entries for the last 2 days. The Enea Silvio Piccolomini was beyond my self-control, though. You went into a long and substantive entry, made a link to someone's birth name, and then wrote an entry you yourself admitted was 'a summary'. It took one of the most important Renaissance intellectuals, a man who eventually became Pope, and mentioned that he was an imperial secretary and the archibishop of Warmia? Get a grip! --MichaelTinkler.
2. :Ah, then it *should* be and Duke of ? --MichaelTinkler.
I appreciate your , JHK or anyone else's input. I do not go much for attacks.
1. At the time E. Piccolomini was bishop of Ermland or Warmia, he was not pope. He was for years an imperial secretary,also advisor, later a pope. Therefore I linked a small mention (summary) to the Warmia statement on E. Piccolomini. That article on Pope Pius II would be too long and distracting on the Warmia page, therefore the additional small summary link to the name, not the pope.(That was my thought).
Your pages and pages of not only lenghty but in my opinion, worse, inappropiate comments on dozens of wikipedia entries does not seem to me to be in the spirit of objectivety.
You need to get a grip.
For a while it looked as if you hit the bottle too hard or something.
2. About that lenghty description of the HRE I will leave it untouched for now.
To quote another WIkipedian in similar circumstances: Pot. Kettle. Black.
Mrs Jonat: no pages in wikipedia are in somebody's control. I find it insulting that you call pages which present views of history different of yours of being out of control.
And i asked you, yes, for help, since i am not sure how German commanders and places should be called. I tried to guess how their names sound in English, but native German speaker who had some interest in History should do better.
Totally messed up THirteen years war! Except for spelling errors, and for fact that i have to put much work to reshape it, what's so messed up there? szopen
to Szopen, I added the following statements to my page: Many different people input articles in wikipedia. Texts change constantly. Therefore much of the contents do not remain my input. Articles needing more work: The 13 year war article was somewhat done. Then pages and pages of none-english text appeared. I have not taken a look at it since.The messed up statement was my reaction. JHK reads German language. She is a history teacher and she as native knows how American English speakers want to translate names and places. I will not get into it, because I do not have the current academic inside knowledge and sometimes disagree with the way names and places are translated (often beyond recognition). I would not be of any help to you. H. Jonat
Hi Larry, Somehow my number got changed from 66.47.62 while updating. It changed to 130.94.122, which is another person's , who is still adding articles. What should I do ? H. Jonat
Helga -- there is nothing you CAN do. Have you changed internet providers lately, or are you working from a different computer? The 130.94.122.xxx is your IP (internet protocol) address. Many other people can have that address besides you -- at one time (the last three numberswould be different). If you don't have your "own" (aka static) IP address, you may occasionally have a different address, depending on your provider. So, if you want people to know it's you, you may want to log in every time you write. JHK
- Unfortunately, this is actually a new Misplaced Pages bug. Everyone who is not logged in appears as 130.94.122.xxx. --Zundark, 2002 Feb
To JHK and Zundark Thanks to both of you for your suggestions.I did post the message as soon as I realized it, to make people aware. I was right next to a 130.. # when edit conflict appeared and afterwards my page was changed to this number.I did not change server or computer or anything. I notice that an awfull lot of entries now have this number. I tried signing up with a different password, but it didn't let me. I am signed in now and am trying to see what happens. With all the computerbugs going around, this needs to be checked further. H. Jonat
- Clarification for you -- (and Zundark's right, i should have checked the Misplaced Pages bugs page first). This is a "bug" in the code that makes wikipedia work -- it just means that there is a line of code that may have an error as small as an extra space. It's analogous (in a VERY simplified way) to trying to make something bold in HTML and forgetting to put the at the end, so you'd see something like this:
words in bold
Instead of this:
words in bold
It's not like a virus, that is code somebody deliberately wrote in order to infect your computer and damage files, so it won't "go around." JHK
HJ -- You're doing it again. Creating articles with titles that just don't make sense in English. For example, we don't call Prince Andrew, 'Prince Andrew Windsor'. I think he's something like HRH Andrew, Duke of York. PLEASE stop creating articles with nonsensical titles -- especially when those articles have absolutely no useful information. Albert (or whatever) I the Brave Wettin is neither the man's appropriate name nor title. You have started so many of these stubs, but really contributed little that is helpful. Why, oh why, can't you take some pride in your work, and some responsibility for what you put up on the site??? Quality is much more important than quantity -- and the rate at which you put up stubs that need re-writing as close to phenomenal. Don't you care at all that some of us don't want the wikipedia to appear a joke -- that it would be good to prove that people without advanced degrees can be great contributors? JHK
Thank you, JHK, just what I was going to say. There are two points here:
1. I'd rather be writing good articles of my own than waste time correcting others' basic factual errors which should have been cleared up BEFORE submission.
2. We need to sort out standard styles BEFORE the site gets cluttered with a chaotic assortment of English and German royal/ducal nemes (WITHOUT their proper titles).
HJ, I notice you haven't contributed to the discussion of standards in this matter: your actions are frankly beginning to look like deliberate vandalism. Please cool it and give the rest of us a chance to get on with our work. And do some research BEFORE submitting errors, rather than relying on others to do your work for you. David Parker