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A certain user has edited the article from an ethnic centric point of view and I had to revert it
A certain user has changed the ethnicity of Shirin the Armenian princess to an Azarbaijani! This is definitely uncalled for since all sources agree she was Armenian and a Christian and was not a Turkic speaking Azarbaijani. This is totally unacceptable and I do not want to get Armenians involved in this discussion as well. Indeed Turkic speaking Iranian Azarbaijanis did not exist back then and the process of Turkification occurred way after the Sassanids. So let s leave it as scholars know it. And if you need proof, here is when Khosrows advisor and friend looks for Shirin in Armenia: برنده ره بیابان در بیابان به کوهستان ارمن شد شتابان که آن خوبان چو انبوه آمدندی به تابستان در آن کوه آمدندی چو شاپور آمد آنجا سبزه نو بود ریاحین را شقایق پیش رو بود گرفته سنگهای لاجوردی ز کسوت‌های گل سرخی و زردی
And when there is a castle build for Shirin in Armenia:
پس از ماهی کز آسایش اثر یافت ز بیرون رفتن خسرو خبر یافت
که از بیم پدر شد سوی نخجیر وز آنجا سوی ارمن کرد تدبیر
And when Khosrows goes looking for her in Armenia: که چون خسرو به ارمن کس فرستاد به پرسش کردن آن سرو آزاد
This is not a place to bring political situations of the last 20 years into what has been agreed upon by scholars. I will respond to the rest of the ethnic centeric viewpoint here.
The author also has misquoted some of the verses of Nizami with really poor Persian (and one of them didn't exist) although the issue of Nizamis ethnicity has been settled by scholars. Kurdish mother, and father of perhaps from Qom. This is what Nizami scholars have said and there is absolutely nothing else from his poetry to gain more information. We do not want to bring verses that are ethnic in nature weather pro or con. Here is a very degrading one from Eskandar addressed to the King of Turks and Eskandar does not address anyone else like this and indeed has full respect for the King of Persia:
1) He opened his mouth and cursed at Turks 2) and said: "Without discord/disbelief(fitnah) No Turk is born from a mother 3) do not expect anything from chinni except a movement of an eyebrow (In Persian poetry Chin refers to Uighyur western China and parts of Central Asia while Machin refers to mainland China. For example Ferdowsi calls the ruler of the Turks as Khaghan Chin) 4) because they are covenant-breakers and can not be trusted 5) The wise people of the past said it in truth 6) that there is no honor and faithfullness in chinni 7) They all have accepted Tang-Chesmi (meaning narrow eyes) (like in the mongolian race) (meaning also they can't see well..) 8) they have only seen greatness and wideness in the eyes of others 9) Have you not heared that their love is equal to hate 10) the heart of Turk-e-chinni is full of crookedness 11) If the Turk-chinni had any honor 12) then the earth would be clothed under chinn (Part of Eskandar Nama)
Or the ones where Nizami wrote from the Shirvan shah desisting Turkish language and manners and Nizami praises him heavily.
Now this user wrote this verses and I will analyze it:
In this Ephiopia my Turkishness is not appreciated, That's why my tasty doga is not eaten. In Persian: "Torkiemra der in Hebesh neherend, lacherem dugbaje-hesh nehorend". (From: Seven beauties/Haft paykar, fourth epic poem of Nizami).
First the Persian is horrible: It is Torkiyam raa dar in Habash Nakharand, laajaram Dooghbaayeh Khos Nakhorand.
This is in the end of the story of moral advices and it is when the many moral advices have been given. After finishing all the moral advices (which none of them have anything to do with ethnicity!), the poets complains that many people might not take his advice. Here is wilsons translation after 200 lines of moral advice:
Be no disciple aspirationless do not be weak of faith in trust in God I, solver of a hundred knotty points, am village-chief, but in the village not If from the road a guest should chance to come, who will there be to set a tray for him? Intelligence discerns what I now say, and what I aim at in this hint thrown out. At destitution I am little vexed of him who’s destitute is my complaint. This Ethiopia likes not Turkish wares hence it will have not palatable curds Whilst in this furnace which one’s nature ripes as grape unripe I still was somewhat raw, Fortune made use of me as grape unripe, made of me verjuice-tutty for the sight. Since I have reached the state of the ripe grape, I’ve suffered often from the stings of wasps. The wine which is a spiritual draught for earth is not the grape worth more than this? I follow up the path they know of me hence frozen water I am called by them. Water when it is frozen, as they say, is not a fount of water, but of gold.
You see this has nothing to do with any sort of ethnicity! And since Turk in Persian meant beautiful lover as opposed to Ethipions in Persian poetry (and these were the mongloid turks as Nizami calls them repeatedly Cheshm Tang (narrow eyed)), he is saying that this moral beauty is not bought in this ugly Ethiopia (Habash). This has nothing to do with ethnicity. After 300 lines of advice, the teacher hopes that his advices will be taken seriously. Else Nizami did not live in Ethiopia. And he does not have even one verse of Turkish (assuming he could speak it) while there were certaintly Seljuqids who could have helped him if he wanted to compose. The fact is that not even one verse of turkish poetry exists from the area before the Mongol invasion. Rumi another Persian poets says: “Gah Tork, Gah Hindu, Gah Zangi, Gah Rumi” (sometimes I am a Turk, sometimes a hindu, sometimes a black, sometimes a Roman). Turk (and these are central Asian Mongloid Turks) symbolically means a cruel lover, beautiful person, a plunderer and also sun (because of the yellow color). A Hindu means dark, night, and also servant. A Zangi (African) means night, total darkness. Even his name is Rumi (Roman/Greek), but this does make Greek/Roman although he had 50 verses of Greek also. A Roman means day, light, total whiteness in Persian poetry. I hope this verse is resolved.
Secondly Doogh (yogurt drink and yogurt) is a Persian word etymologically and its Tukish equivalent is 'Ayraan'. Dooghbaa is a traditional milk based drink but it is in no way Turkish as the word itself is Persian. Sa'adi has referred to it in his poems as well. The etymology is Persian (Dehkhoda). In fact the turkish equivalent for Dooghbaa would be Ayraan-something. Doogh is Persian meaning white (Yogurt) and baa means meal. Like the other word Shoorbaa used for certain variety of soups.
The author then continues:
Turks, the power of which has risen (towered), Posesse the kingdom (governing) by means of justice (fairness). Since you cherish tyranny, cruelty, Then you are not a Turk, but a Hindu-robber (thief). n Persian: Dovlete torkan ke bolendi kereft, Memleket ez dadpecendi kereft, Chonke to bidadkeri perveri, Tork neyi hendu-ye bidadkeri". (From: Treasure of Mysteries (Secrets), first epic poem of Nizami).
Again poor Persian and mispronunciation of words. It is Dowlat Torkan ke Bolandi Gereft - Mamlekat az dad pasandi gereft
This is actually a play on words. The story is in Makhzan al-asraar and it is about a complaint of an old lady (pir-e-zan) to the Seljuq ruler Sanjar. And since Turks in Persian poetry symbolically means ruler/plundered and hindu as a slave/plundered (this symbolism came to Persian poetry though the devastating campaigns of Ghaznavids in India). It is saying that you are acting like a slave and not a master. Again this has nothing to do with Nizami's ethnicity.
The author continues:
Ganja, having tied me up, has firmly taken me, Iraq's wealth I hold without node" (From: Treasure of Mysteries (Secrets), first epic poem of Nizami. Note: Ganja, the capital of Arran/Azerbaijan, was part of the Seljuq Turkic Empire at the time of Nizami with capital in Baghdad -- hence Iraq. Meanwhile, Iran did not exist as a separate or otherwise independent or semi-independent unified state since the 7th century AD and until resurrection in 16th century under Shah Ismail Khatai Sefevi).
Actually Iran was a common term and it referred to a region. Even the Seljuqs used Iran when referring to Iranian territories. So does Nizami. As does Qatran Tabrizi and many other poets. Indeed Nizami refers to the Shirvan Shah not only as the ruler of Arran, but also one who is truly by heart the ruler of all of Iran. What you might say is that “Iranian” state was not created until Safavids just like the republic of Azarbaijan was not created as a state until 19th century. The Seljuqs although Turkic originally adopted Persian culture and manner. And this has no bearing on Nizamis ethnicity since hundreds if not thousands of other Persian poets are known from the Seljuq era. The word Iran is used 20 times in Nizamis poetry. When he praises the Shirvan Shah he says: “In naameh naghz nagofteh behtar – taavoos javaaneh jofteh behtar – khaaseh molki cho shah sehrvan – shervaan cheh keh shahryaar Iran” Translation: This well written story has never been better, It is as beutifull as young peacock throne, For a king like the king of Shirvan, Not just Shirvan but all of Iran!”. So Iran as geographical entity has been used many times before the Safavid era. Specially it has been used in Samanid, Ghaznavid, Seljuqid..eras.
Now to this verse:
If my (dear) Turkic (wife Appaq/Afak) escaped from (my) tent, o God, (I beg you) take care of my Turkic-born (son Muhammed)!" (From: Khosrov and Shirin, second epic poem of Nizami)
First of all it is Afagh, not Appaq. Secondly the verse before it is insulting:
چو ترکان گشته سوی کوچ محتاج به ترکی داده رختم را به تارج اگر شد ترکم از خرگه نهانی خدایا ترک زادم را تو دانی
Cho torkaan gashteh sooyeh kooch mohtaaj Beh torki daadeh rakhtam raa beh taaraaj Agar shod torkam az khargah nahaani Khodaayaa tork-zaadm raa to daani
After the death of the slave girl sent to him by the Sultan of Darband, Nizami writes: ‘’since Turks are indeed in need of migration, my wife plundered my belongings away in a Turkish manner, if My Turkish wife escaped from the tent, O god you best know about my Tork-Zaad”
Nizami uses the word Tork-zaad (born of a Turkish mother). Which in Persian literature lexicon means a son of Turkish slave. That is an Iranian or an Arab married to Turkish slave. For example Ferdowsi says about Hormozd the Sassanid king whose father was a Turk: “Sokhan bas kon ze Hormozd Tork-zaad – keh andar zamaaneh mabaad aan nejaad” (End now the discussion and talk about Hormzod Tork-zaad, may such a race (half turk-half Persian) never exist any time!). Look at Dekhodas dictionary for other examples. So this verse actually shows Nizami was not a Turk, else there would not be any need to use such a term..
Finally the word turk has gained many meanings in Persian literature like the word Qafchaq has. It simply means a beautiful person and it is used heavily in this manner by Attar, Hafez, Rumi, Ferdowsi.. and etc. So even this part about his wife Afaq can be taken to mean she was beautiful like Turks of Central Asia.
Finally lets take a look at this verse:
From Khazar mountains till Chinese sea, Whole land I see full of Turks" (From: Iskender-nameh, 1199-1201, fifth and last epic poem of Nizami. Note: this quote is said by Alexander the Great in the poem).
Actually in the Eskandar Nama, it is made clear that Azarbaijan is a Zoroastrian and Persian strong-hold. This section is about the country of Russia and Alexanders incursion in Russia and how he uses Turks and Russians against each other. Khazars borders has always been from the Darband upward. Both the Sassanids and the Caliphates kept the border at the Darband and the mountains beyond until the Russians destroyed the Khazar empire. So I do not see what this quote has anything to do with Nizamis ethnicity. He mentions Indians, Blacks, Russians, Chinese, Turks, Persians, Romans.. in the Eskandar-nama. So I am not sure what this author is trying to prove.
Finally Nizami uses the word Parsi(Persian) (11) times all in positive manner. The word “Iran” is quoted 20 times. Indeed two of his epics is about full praisal of Sassanid Iran who were enemies of Khazars and Gok-Turks (first two Turkic empires). And in the Alexandar (Dhul-Qarnain) story, the King of Persia is actually praised by Alexander and Azarbaijan is a Zoroastrian Persian strong-hold. I can come up with literally hundreds of verses where he is either praising Iranian or Iranian culture or has some connection with Iran. Culturally, Nizamis Persian poetry is clearly part of the Islamo-Iranian heritage. So lets leave the discussion of his ethnicity to what serious Nizami scholars have agreed upon and is certain. 100% Kurdish mother. Perhaps a father from Qom. And Perhaps a Turkish slave as his wife named Qafqaz. Shirin also is an Armenian in Khosrow o Shirin. Alexander is Greek/Roman (and do not get into that macedonian argument since to Nizami he was Greek). Lili o Majnoon is Arab story. So Nizami has a connection to everyone and is universal. If there was anything else that would make his ethnicity clearer, then scholars would have already shown it. So we will never know more than this with certainty. BTW I also have PhD and lets not write ethnic based articles and then refer to it in Misplaced Pages. I say lets honor Nezami instead of fighting. His poetry pretty much speaks for itself with regards to the culture he belonged to. Else pretty soon Iranians, Armenians, and people from the Azarbaijani republic and Kurds also will be bickering. I have found many english translations of Nizami's verses (without any ethnic nature although clearly about Iranian Sassanid folklore) that I will put up soon in this article. --Ali doostzadeh 05:36, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for a lengthy talk, but you are making many misguided assumptions and unscholarly conclusions, while simultaneously attacking anyone who disagrees with you, yet trying to look with peaceful and good intentions. Had this been true, you and a certain other user would note have been 1) deleting verses from Nizami that I have provided (and my verses include far more bibliographic information as to where they are from); 2) by incorrectly providing the dates of Nizami's 5 epic poems, as well as being wrong about the order in which they were written, 3) by denying that in addition to the 5 epic poems (Khamse) Nizami also had a Divan of many lyrical poems, with some 2,000 beyts (couplets) available to us today, 4) by incorrectly translating Nizami from Persian due to not being an expert in 12th century Farsiye Dari language, and more importantly, ignoring the fact that it was written by an Azerbaijani such as Nizami, which is testified by his use (spelling) of certain Persian words in an Azerbaijani fashion (e.g., munjug instead of bundjug) and usage of several Turkic words in the poems (e.g., usaq, alichaq, yataq, bichaq, chariq, papax, chorab, etc), 5) thinking that if Nizami described Turks as with slanted eyes, it is an insult (?! only to a modern-day racist perhaps, but to the rest of us, it is a sign of beauty), 6) talking about Mongols and yellow-skinned (?!) Turks when Mongols WERE NOT EVEN KNOWN TO THE REGION YET and Turks being always WHITE-skinned in Nizami's poems and an example of beauty and courage, 7) by ignoring the affirmation of Nizami's Azerbaijani-Turk ethnicity by multiple scholars of different origin, from different countries, whether Russian or German, Ukrainian or Uzbek, Jewish or even ARMENIAN!
I can go on and on, debunking your talk. Part of your problem is that you, like majority of Iranians, do not have access to ACADEMIC editions of Nizami's poems. Do you know the difference between an academic, scholarly edition and a simple one such as the one you rely upon? An Academic edition compares, critically and textologically analyzes ALL existing manuscripts of Nizami's poems around the world, whilst yours relies on a few of them in Iran. That's why you keep on talking about Nizami's father being from Qom (Kum) when 1) there is no proof of that nature from Nizami himself and 2) and such a line, albeit not about his father, but himself, was added to the later editions of the manuscripts, but absent from all earlier one's, such as one done in 1361 and 1365 and held in Paris National Library. That's why such giants of Oriental studies as prof. E.Bertels dismissed these allegations about Qom -- which was supported by none other than another notable scholar and very famous Armenian poetess M.Shaginyan in her 1950s book -- all of which I dilligently reproduced.
Similarly, she (Shaginyan) dismissed the mistaken assumption of Shirin being Armenian -- how poorly educated one has to be to say that Shirin was Armenian if she just travelled (i.e, not lived!) to Armenia, a geographic concept to begin with as there was no independent Armenia either in Nizami's time or in Khosrov time. I guess F.Kafka was ethnic German or ethnic Czech, since he wrote in German and lived in Prague -- but in reality he was Jewish. Ayatollah Khomeini was probably French -- after all, he travelled and lived in France. And I guess myself, along with you, are pure Anglo-Saxons for writing in English. For your education, Shirin was an Azerbaijani (Arrani) Turk -- she had those slanted eyes, that you consider an insult, she drank kumis (the Turkic - nomadic - horse's milk), her ansestor, as mentioned by Nizami, was "mythical king of Turan Afrasiyab", who was also ancestor of Mihin-Banu -- the queen of Arran (Barda) and Shirin's aunt, who pocessed and ruled all of Arran and Armenia. All of this shows that your knowledge of Nizami's works is shallow, it is not enough to be able to read in Farsi or read at all -- one has to know the complex history of the region and have other analytical skills to make proper assumptions and determinations.
Instead of deleting the quotes from Nizami that I provide, the links to other websites that I provide, the biographical information that I cite (!), better add your own fully-cited information.
--70.108.235.71 17:46, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Let me start with your sentences: Thanks for a lengthy talk, but you are making many misguided assumptions and unscholarly conclusions, while simultaneously attacking anyone who disagrees with you, yet trying to look with peaceful and good intentions.
Also it is better to sign in with your previous name or at least the acronym of it (AB).
Again you wrote a lot (I might add with some arrogance) but you were not able to prove anything! Persian is language I know well because I am from Iran. Actually the Persian you typed was terrible and makes the verses not rhyme. And you did not know Dooghbaa and Shoorbaa are Persian words and not Turkish. So you lack basic etymological skills. And by the way you seem to be an economic major (google search), and are not definitely an expert in Persian or a Nizami scholar or Persian literature Professor! So your own composition should be talked about within the discussion page. Doogh means Yogurt based drink in Persian and it is not Turkish word. So you lack basic Persian skills, whereas I can tell easily which word is Persian, which is Turkish, which is Arabic from reading any manuscript. The other word you mentioned Chorab (Sharab) is actually arabic word meaning wine! The word Manjuq/Monjuq could be Persian (Dekhoda) and before Nizami, Asadi Tusi (from Tus Khorasan, the homeland of Ferdowsi) uses it in Garshasp Nama (another Persian epic poem about the ancestor of Rustam). Different pronounciation of the same word with one root exists in many languages. For example Shahr (city) شهر, Shaar شار Both are used by Ferdowsi. I can keep going on and on and you should provice at least the actual verse in arabic script so readers can judge and not just throw out few words. You probably can not read Persian which is Nizamis language. And by the way Sa'adi, Hafez and Ferdowsi have used some some Turkish words as well, so are you going to claim them as Turkish? Or should I claim Fizuli as a Persian since some of his verses are much more Persian than Turkish. Using a few Turkish terms, specially to do with military, tent/camp (alachiq) is common in Persian. Khaghani even uses some Georgian words. And by the way it is better to give a refrence and write the arabic script version off each of the words you claim, and bring the verses. I will show that other Persian poets could have used a few terms. Indeed Ferdowsi and Nizami use much more Greek terms, but are you going to call them Greek. And above Greek, they use much more Arabic terms. So please do not weave so much stuff in order to make claims. The fact is that we only know 100% Nizamis mother was Kurdish. Other than that, some manuscripts have made a reference to him being from Qom, and this is a 'perhaps', 'maybe', etc.
1) I did not delete any of your verses, and I have brought them and responded to them in the discussion page. Discussion of Nizamis ethnicity does need 100 lines or else I would put my article also refuting yours and put much more lines supporting Iranian father
2) I did not incorrectly put Nizamis dates. These have been manipulated by various users over time. Experts are still not 100% sure about the exact dates of all them. (Said Nafisi). That is why information was taken from Dr. Iraj Bashiri's page and I will update it accordingly to it. 100% certainty on the date of composition of each manuscript does not exist.
3) Nizami, if he had a diwan (according to dowlat shah samarqandi about 20,000 verses), it has been lost. No serious Nizami scholar has referenced the lines outside of panj ganj and the verses outside of panj ganj are indirect attributions that can not be proved today. They have been published by by Vahid Dastgerdi by their authencity is not gauranteed like the Panj Ganj. All Nizami has available to scholars today is the 5 ganj. There are false attributions to many ancient authors. Even Hafez, Ferdowsi, Attar, Rumi. Only the 5 ganj are known from Nizami. This sort of thing unfortunately has happened and attributing verses to different authors is nothing new.
4) Fourthly Nizami uses Perso-arabic script. Not Azarbaijani script. And he does not say naharand, but he says nakharand. I can read the original Persian script and so please do not write false claims. You were not there to here Nizami pronouncing. Persian has kh and Nizami has written kh. If some one well verses in a language, he would pronounce it like the speakers of that language! And Nizami was certainly amongst the top seven greatest Persian poets and had full mastery of the language. And for example you did not pronounce the word Dooghbaa correctly, while there no unambiguity for any reader in Persian. And please provide the verses and not just a word here and there. For each claim, please provide the verses in Persian. And Also the verse before and after it.
5) There is no talk of racism. Nizami describes Turks as Tang-Chesm (slant-eyes). So does Hafez. So does Rumi. So does Sanai. So do many Islamic compositions. And who said narrow eyes ( slant-eyes) are not pretty? You are the one being racist. There is no reference to Turks white skin in any of Nizamis poem. (by the way the tone of the skin could be light and one can be of Mongoloid race like many Chinese).
But here is many references to narrow eyes.
Here is several:
به نِفرين تُرکان زَبان بَرگُشاد // که بی فِتنِه تُرکی زِ مادَر نَزاد//زِ چينی بِجُز چينِ اَبروُ مَخواه //ندارند پِيمان مردم نِگاه // سُخن راست گُفتند پيشينيان // که عَهد و وَفا نيست در چينيان // همه تَنگ چِشمی پَسنديده اند// فَراخی به چَشمِ کَسان ديده اند// خبر نی که مهر شما کين بُوَد// دل تُرکِ چين پُر خَمُ و چين بُوَد// اگر تُرکِ چينی وَفا داشتی // جهان زيرِ چين قَبا داشتی
(Eskandar Nama)
سرآينده ترك با چشم تنگ فروهشته گيسو به گيسوي چنگ
(Eskandar Nama)
When Eskandar conquers the Qifqach: همه تنگ چشمان مردم فریب فرشته ز دیدارشان ناشکیب (Eskandar Nama)
When Bahram talks to one his servant and compares to her tatar:
گفت کای تنگ چشم تاتاری صید ما را به چشم می ناری ؟ صید ما کز صفت برون آید در چنان چشم تنگ چون آید
I can also show it from about 10 other classical poets and authors that describe turks as tang-cheshm. So if you want to make a point from now on, show the relevant verses.
1) I have access to all Western and Iranian sources. I read a lot of classical poetry while your fundamental problem is that you can not read and understand Persian well. Like many people in Caucasian Azarbaijan. 2) The USSR sources are not much help to scholars in much aspect because they have been manipulated by ethno-centeric scholars many times. For example Tajiks were forced to learn that Nizami Ganjavi was an Azarbaijani (Turk), but now after the breakup, he is an Iranian in the textbook. Everyone today knows the many nonsense aspect of soviet histiography. Even Stalin made false claims and got involved. There is a good article in Persian by the way written by an Armenian scholar which totally shows how many soviet scholars after the breakup have said Nizami is Persian and had nothing to do with Turks or Turkish culture. (Indeed if he did, he would write about Kor-Oghlu and Dede-Qorqod instead of Sassanid Persian stories). There is a lot of Armenians, Iranians, Western, Russian.. scholars that have affirmed Nizamis Iranian ethnicity. Specially many Russians after the soviet breakup. One famous RUSSIAN Iranist said: Nizami Ganjavi is one of the greatest thinkers and poets of the middle ages and belongs to the exceptional heritage of Persian literature. He had no connection with the current culture of Azarbaijan. And Azerbaijanis (he means the caucus ones that consider themselves Turks) are making a useless effort to claim and make him of their own. At the time of Nizami, Azeri-Turks did not exist in Azarbaijan. (sovietkaya kultura (soviet culture) magazine, 27 of December, 1988).
Read this article for other former soviet union scholars that have refuted your theory after the breakup:
And btw what counts is what the most recent sources say. If one Armenian scholar in 1950 said something (and this I haven't seen proof), tens of Armenian scholars are saying the opposite now. Specially with the break up of soviets. At the time of the USSR, such a matter after the verdict of Stalin was not open to much debate! And it could mean being forced into Siberia. Many USSR scholars were coered by different methods and did not have freedom of speech and thought in many matters.
Those multiple USSR scholars when it comes to ethnicity do not have much value and what matters is what the scholars are saying today. And finally you can not prove it from one verse that Nizamis other half was 100% anything from any ethnicity. Encyclopedia Britannica has left that portion as blank. So for now Kurds will claim the ethnic glory, if you will.
3) About his father being from Qom, there is perhaps and we did not say it with certainty! We said some manuscripts. And these manuscripts BTW are 400 years old and actually biography books more than 400 year old have mentioned this. Even if this is 100% false, we not know for 100% since it still in some manuscript. Because even if there is a manuscript older than it, it does not automatically 100% refute it, since multiple manuscripts could have been extant. So that is why we use the word Perhaps. Even if some scholars dismiss it, some scholars have used words "perhaps", "could have been","maybe." . Like CE Wilson, Iraj Bashi and Julia Scott Meysami. So nothing is 100%. Only his Kurdish mother is 100%. That why we did say perhaps, could have been, maybe...
4) Again Shirin was Armenian. And I have shown it from the material above. Parviz (Persian name) sends his friend Shapur (Persian name) to Armenia to pick her up. Indeed Shirin is a Persian name as well and Armenian is about 15% middle Persian. Whereas the earliest manuscripts from Turkish, like the Orkhon inscription, are relatively pure. Her mother is the ruler of Armenia. If you can read Persian it is clear. In google do a search "shirin armenian nizami", see what you get. Many scholarly references prop up. In fact "Shirin-e-Arman" is famous saying in Persian poetry. And by the way, as per your other false claim, the word Turan does not show up once in the Khorsow and Shrin. Neither does Afrasiyab. You see, I have all of Nizami in original Persian and I can look up any word. So it is better if you provide the verses instead of just talking about it! Bring the actual Persian verses. This point for me is sufficient to see you have a major political agenda. That is not acceptable in Misplaced Pages. There is absolutely no mention of Shirin being a Turk and Azarbaijani. And Caucasian Arranians (Albanians) were not Turks either. They were a Christian people speaking Caucasian languages whose church merged with the Armenian Church. Also Dr. Moin and Dehkhoda have both also called Shirin Armenian. And the Turanians were not Turks either as all their names in Avesta are Iranian. Like Afrasiyaab, Piran, Peshang, Garsivaz... Caucasian Albania or Arran historically is not part of Azarbaijan. The overwhelming majority of classic sources consider it a separate land. Although sometimes because of administrative reasons, it has been considered part of Armenia or Azarbaijan (below the Aras river). That and Turan is another story though. But you need to bring actual verses about Shirin being a Turk! If you can not and persist changing her identity, I will get other Wikipedians, Armenians and Iranian Wikipedians involved. I have shown from the above verses how Shapur, that is Khusraw's friend, goes to Armenian to introduce Shirin for Khusraw.
Here is another Persian poet, Vahshi baafqi (1524-1576) writing about Shirin the Armenian and clearly and explicitly mentions her as Armenian:
که تا با تلخ کامی‌ها برآید مگر شیرین لبی را درخورآید
چو فرهاد آرزو را در درون کشت کلید آرزوها یافت در مشت
به کلی کرد چون از خود کرانه بیامد تیر آهش بر نشانه
نمود از دولت عشق گرامیش اثر در کام شیرین تلخ کامیش
چنان بد کن شه خوبان ارمن سر شکر لبان شیرین پر فن
And in another one from Amir Khosrow Dehlavi (1253-1325) who clearly and explicity mentions her as an Armenian:
که در چین بود از ارمن نقشبندی
نبشته نقش شیرین بر پرندی
And btw her mothers name was not Mihin-Banu(turkish pronounciation), but it was Mahin-Banu. Which is a Persian word, Mahin meaning greatest. If you want your rhymes to work, then pronouncing the word correctly is important. So if I take your argument, then Nizami definitely pronounced words in Persian. BTW both Mahin Banu and Shirin are Persian words and as I said Armenian is about 15% Parthian-Pahlavi. Classical Armenian is much more Parthian-Pahlavi. But samples of classical Turkish (Orkhon manuscript) shows very little Iranic influence and perhaps a few Soghdian words (atlhough Shirin and Mahin-Banu are Persian Iranian and not Soghdian Iranian).
5) I can claim you are a racist. Let us do away with childish characterization of those who do not share your POV. Nizami uses the term Narrow-eyes for Turks as I shown above. There is nothing racist about it, since many other Persian poets have used it. And racism is irrelevant here and has nothing to do with discussion when someone is describing physical characteristics. The harsh verses about Khaghan Turk are also not racist. Since concept of racism does not apply to those days..
6) We know 100% Nizamis mother was a Kurd. His father we will never know. And the only thing reliable from Nizami available to us is his 5-ganj. Any other verses outside of this is attributed and not taken to be authentic. BTW, not to take your claims seriously, but Nizami was not even fully Azarbaijani as claim, since he was at least half Kurdish! And today scholars look for both mother and father to ascertain ethnicity. I would guess by probability that his other half was Kurdish since virtually all Kurds marry with other Kurds.
7) Finally Nizamis description of Azarbaijan is Persian Zoroastrian stronghold. All his works are Persian. None of them have anything to do with Turkish culture like Dede-Qorqord or Kor-Oghlu. They are about ancient Persian and other Islamic folklores. But nothing to do with Turkish folklore.
8) We do not want to put 100 lines of bickering about Nizami’s ethnicity in the Misplaced Pages article. People that will read his poems will pretty much figure it out what culture he belonged to. Even Stalin claimed that Nizami had Turkish works, while no scholar takes such a matter seriously, since Turkish poetry first showed up in the region during Ilkhanid era. We have agreed with other users not to make this article about Nizamis ethnicity but about Nizami Ganjavi. I can come with hordes of arguments. Like why would Nizami constantly praise Ferdowsi and the Persian nationalistic dynasty of the Sassanids. Or why did he belittle Turks through Shirvanshah and praised the ShirvanShah. Or why he doesn't even have one verse in Turkish. And why he derides the Khaghan of Turks so badly. And why he has written that he has looked through Persian, Arabic, Bukhari, Tabari sources, but not Turkish. And many many more arugments. That is why I moved your comments to the talk page about ethnicity. And btw Iranians have so many excellent Persian poets that Nizami Ganjavi is only one of them. So far us it is in no way a life and death issue and there is no need to falsify his background. He was Kurdish mother and I would say most likely a Kurdish father (or perhaps his father was from Qom). The reason is that the name 'raise' Kurd means lady chieftan of Kurdish tribe for his mother and usually Kurds marry within themselves. Specially cheiftans who are of higher class. Of course there is exceptions to the rule, but that is the case overwhelmingly. The fact is that even the translations of Nizami Ganjavi to Azarbaijani Turkish came later than many other modern languages (including English, Russian, French..) and this means Nizami did not have any profound effect on the Oghuz Turkish culture although some Turkish and Indian poets read his work in Persian and were influenced by it.
BTW I had added some of Nizamis poetry unrelated to ethnicity and you deleted it. This is unacceptable as the main point of the article is to write about Nizami. Other users have agreed as well.
--Ali doostzadeh 00:50, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Extensive comments and corrections are necessary to Ali Doostzadeh’s talk, since he either is very partial, preferring to concentrate on one and not another, or severely misinterprets some facts or mistranslates and misattributes, or is outright false on others. This is a continuation of the general policy of chauvinism, discrimination and racism displayed by some extremists and which results in the well-known events underway right now in South Azerbaijan’s (North Iran) cities of Tabriz and Urmiya, where 100,000’s Azerbaijanis are protesting the denial of their basic rights and general discrimination by the Iranian government and few Persian chauvinists (chauvinism, an extreme form of nationalism, is present in all cultures and people, by no means limited to any one nation in particular). By the way, the constant references that one writes in a “bad” Persian language are another testament of this – although, if I were on the place of the author, I would pay attention to the horrible English spelling and grammar, as well as mistyped Russian (e.g., “sovietkaya kultura” instead of “Sovetskaya kul’tura”) and even mistranslated Persian/Farsi (on that a little bit below).
1) No one has the right to delete any fact-based, fully cited and attributed information or quotes from either Nizami himself or well-known academics and scholars on that issue, especially Russian, Azerbaijani, Jewish, Ukrainian, and in general Soviet – who have made by far the biggest research on Nizami’s heritage in the 20th century, making the most complete ACADEMIC editions of Nizami’s all five epic poems (Khamse, which is an Arabic term by the way). In other words, anyone who does not know Russian language and is not familiar with the research and scholarly works of Russian-language academics is very severely and negatively affected. Any serious Iranian researcher, be it prof. Meisami or prof. Talattof, are at least somewhat acquainted with Russian-language sources and pay tribute to them – while simultaneously revealing the not-very-pleasant details about some Iranian editors and scholars, such as Sarvatian, Zanjani, Hakimi, Muvahhid, Rashid and Ja’fari. Thus, knowledge of Russian for studying Nizami – and any other Azerbaijani, Uzbek, or Armenian and Persian-Tajik poet – is essential and no less important than knowledge of Farsi/Persian and its classical literary version, Dari.
To sum-up, anyone deleting any facts is in essence vandalizing the page and Misplaced Pages’s rules on vandalizing of pages must apply. Only falsifications and mistakes should be deleted, not objective facts and truth.
Meanwhile, I've never willingly deleted anything that was factual or accurate. I did indeed, REVERT the page back to its original -- why should I spend hours of my time painstakingly editing, while someone comes in and simply deletes my edits COMPLETELY, including the stuff unrelated to ethnicity, such as more correct dates of Nizami's completion of the poems? I did not start this edit-revert nonsense. Hence, if you or others want respect for your work and efforts -- learn to respect others too. And stop your friends from vandalizing the page.
2) Whilst Farsi/Persian language is highly important when studying Nizami’s works, we should keep in mind that I) it was a 12th century Dari, classical literature Persian language; II) it was written in Azerbaijan (Arran), a very distinct and separate geographic, cultural and political entity from either Persia or on a grander scale Iran; III) Iran did not exist as an independent state in Nizami’s time – indeed, Nizami was born, lived and died in the Turkic Seljuk Empire, centered in Baghdad, Iraq (and Nizami mentions “Iraq” more often than “Iran” in his poems) and its constituent part, the Azerbaijani Atabek (Atabeg) state of the Ildenizid’s, the Great/Grand Atabeks (Atabegs) of the Seljuk court and regents of the Turkic Seljuk Sultan himself (in essence, it were the Great/Grand Atabeks from Azerbaijan who ruled the Turkic Seljuk Empire under Sultans Togrul II and Togrul III). To them he dedicated many of his poems, such as “Khosrov and Shirin”. Also, IV) Persian/Farsi, is just like any other language – no more, no less, thus let’s not over-idealize or otherwise idolize it. Which also means that the best way to understand the subtle and complex poetry of such a grand master of poetry, philosophy, and even science as Nizami is to rely on academic editions of his poems and on professional translations or commentary – since each word has many different meanings, especially depending on the context, and sometimes simultaneously means several things – and of course the fact that Nizami wrote in 12th century and we live in 21st century does not help much either. Hence, unless anyone here is an academician and can produce scholarly credentials of being proficient in 12th century Dari, cool down a bit and listen to what world-renowned scholars have to say. Being a native speaker of the 21st century Persian/Farsi is not sufficient – especially since much of our discussions centers on various historical facts and references.
Just so that my hot-headed, trigger- and vandalism-happy opponents understand the point very well, here’s from an Iranian news agency Mehr (published on January 2004), about Dr. Jalal Khaleqi Motlaq, who “is a well-known name in the Farsi language and Iranian literature. He currently lives in Germany and has been editing the Shahnameh for 34 years.” It would be best if all of you read it in entirety, but two main points that he drives home is that academic editions are a hard, but very necessary work, and that despite his study object, Firdowsi, wrote in classic Persian Dari, Iranians had to use the Russian (Soviet) edition of Shah-nameh for decades because that was the only academic edition. Here’s his opinion (remember, he is the #1 authority on Firdowsi, who in his turn is the #1 poet for Persians): “Unfortunately, although Iranians have the knowledge and capability of large tasks they are indolent. Although Orientalists do not understand some issues, they follow academic methods and therefore their corrections are better and perfect”.
3) Nizami’s mother was indeed Kurdish – a very well known fact, which is well acknowledged (in all commentaries to all books) of, for example, Soviet and particularly, Azerbaijani, editions. However, let us not forget, than neither Iran/Persia, nor Azerbaijan, nor other regional states are like Israel – nationality passes with father, not mother. Also, Nizami’s mother, Raiseh, was from the noble family of the Shaddadis, who ruled Azerbaijan (Arran) two centuries prior from their capital in Ganja. Hence, she was very much an Azerbaijani Kurd – as opposed to Anatolian or Iranian or other Kurds – and cultural, linguistic and other subtleties associated with any one region are important. Hence, any attacks and farce created by some irresponsible users is irrelevant, and Kurdish mother does not translate into Nizami being Persian or even Iranian.
4) Nizami’s first (first, not third, as Ali Doostzadeh mistakenly claims) and most beloved wife, Afak (Appaq), was Turkic, she was Qipchaq (Kypchaq, Kipchak). This is a very well known fact and anyone trying to dispute that is just as ridiculous as anyone, for example, who says that it was not “Kord” but “Gord”. Nizami himself says she was his “Kipchak idol” in the “Khosrov and Shirin”. Likewise, her true name was Appaq, which means “white” in Turki, and the only reason it became “Afak” was because Arabic doesn’t have the “p” letter and substitutes it with “f”. Also important, all of this is not said by me – this is from all and every scholar who bothered to write on this matter. I wonder why none of those professional scholars thought of what Ali Doostzadeh says about “Tork-zaad \ Turkic slave” or “Afaagh \ Horizon” – I guess none of those giants of Oriental studies knew Persian as well as Mr. Doostzadeh does. Indeed, Mr. Doostzadeh might think he has achieved a breakthrough in the studies of Nizami’s heritage with his sensational writings, but in reality it is all just unsubstantiated talk.
Since we know that Appaq was uneducated and from the steppes (she was a slave given to Nizami by the Derbent ruler), which basically meant she knew only her native language, Turki, and she obviously called herself – as did Nizami in his also native Turki – Appaq, and not Afak. Hence, any one user, who salivates and angrily attacks the “Appaq” spelling, is just incompetent.
Moreover, in the very same beyts, Nizami admits that he modeled his heroine Turkic (Azerbaijani) Shirin after Appaq (Afak): “You too, my Afak, vanished (died) as Shirin”.
And he continues “Allah, take care of my Turkic-born (son)!” This is yet another proof of who was she (Afak/Appaq), their son (Muhammed) and also Nizami himself, since once again, nationality passed through father, not mother, and to write about a “Turkic-born” like this, without clearly identifying whether it means only from a Turkic mother or both parents, for supposedly “Persian” Nizami would be strange. All bizarre opinions that Nizami would somehow mean Turkic-born as derogatory are without any merit – why would Nizami insult his only and beloved son, to whom he dedicated so many verses and sections in his poems, and as such, insult himself, as the father of that Turkic-born “slave”? Moreover, what is anyone talking about when Nizami decided to legally marry Appaq/Afak, make her his legal first wife, instead of just keeping her as a slave and potentially, concubine?! Where is the derogatory and insulting in this that Mr. Doostzadeh keeps on preaching about?!
5) The Qom issue – neither Nizami, nor his father, were from Qom, central Iran – as I stated many times, this is a proven fact by such authorities of Nizami-studies as academician E.E.Bertels and Armenian (!) poetess Marietta Shaginyan. This line was a later addition to the manuscripts and was absent from earlier, more reliable and better, editions, such as the 1361 and 1365 editions in the Paris National Library.
But just in case someone wishes to keep bringing it up, I am afraid they would be shooting themselves in the foot. The problem with all this –and with the subject of Nizami – is that some circles, among which are various Persian chauvinists, is that they 1) deny all history and heritage to Azerbaijan and Azerbaijani people, and 2) assume that all of Iran was 100% or even absolute majority Persian or otherwise Iranian-populated. This is not true today, and was not true in Nizami’s time – or before him. It is a well-known fact that Persians came into Iran and north to Azerbaijan around the end of the 7th century B.C. – 6th century B.C. (see Encyclopedia Britannica).
For example, Arabic historian at-Tabari (d. 923 A.D.) wrote than already in 671 A.D., when Arabs conquered Kukhistan in Khorasan (Iran), it was ruled by Turks, and specifically mentions Nizak-tarhan, who concluded a peace deal with Arabs (this and much more other interesting info is from the #1 authority on Turkic history in Russia, prof. L.N.Gumilev, as well as Uzbek prof. Sh.Kamaliddinov and others). None other than a Persian historian Rawandi wrote in his treatise dedicated to sultan of Rum Giyas ed-Din Keykhusrev (1192-1196, i.e., a contemporary of Nizami): “Thanks to almighty Allah … in the lands of Arabs, Persians, Byzanthians and Rus, the word belongs to Turks…”
This is not to say that Turkic people were a majority everywhere or were autochthonous – but they certainly were in large, sizeable numbers, sometimes as a majority and often as rulers – well before the 11th century conquest by the Oguz Seljuk Turks of the whole of Iran, Anatolia, Caucasus and Iraq. Relevant Byzanthian, Arabic and even Armenian chroniclers and historians mentions Turks already in 5th century A.D. being sizeable in Caucasus and North Iran (South Azerbaijan) and elsewhere (not to mention Central Asia).
Of course Azerbaijan was a stronghold of Zoroastrism – we believe, like many scholars, that Zoroaster was from Azerbaijan. Yet Zoroastrism doesn’t translate into “Persian” – for one, it predates the incursion of the ethnic Persians into northern Iran. Secondly, before becoming Christian, the Caucasian Albans – who were of Caucasian, as well as Turkic and some Iranian origin – were Zoroastrian. Hence, it is not inconceivable for Turkic people to be Zoroastrian – and not be, especially by the time of Nizami, “shamanistic” – which were the Turkic people of the Russian and Central Asian steppes, but not the Caucasian and Middle Eastern Turkic people. The Turkic nation was huge – it is a gross mistake to think of this great nation as all being one, uniform and the same. Otherwise, why did Mongols and Tatar confederation battle Turks? Why did Ottoman Turks battle Azerbaijani and Iranian Turks? And all of them battle Timurleng?
The etymology and origin of the terms “Azerbaijan” along with “Naxcivan” is debated. By Nizami’s time, Turks were majority in many cities of Azerbaijan, as well as Iran, such as Ganja, Beylaqan (Baylakan), Barda, and the language, Turki, was the most popular language – as is derived also from the “conversation” of Nizami with Shirvanshah Ahsatan/Akhsitan I in “Leyli and Mejnun”, where shirvanshah specifically asks Nizami to write either in Persian or Arabic, but not in Turki – to the dissatisfaction of Nizami, who wanted to refuse at first, but was persuaded by his “Turkic-born” son Muhammed, then 14 years old, to go ahead with the request of the shirvanshah. As one of the top authorities in Oriental studies in the Soviet Union, Russian academician Krachkovsky wrote in his 1946 article “Early history of the epic about Mejnun and Leyli in Arabic literature”, Nizami later wrote a verse in response, in which he essentially threw a stone at ethnic Persian (or Persianized Arab) shirvanshah (whose mother was Georgian, by the way) by advising him to become a Turk.
Hence all the one-sided articles about “turkification of the area” by ill-educated pseudo-historians should be left aside.
Also, consider that Tats, Talysh, Kurds, and any other Iranian peoples in Azerbaijan are both in absolute and relative numbers smaller than the numbers of Turkic people in Iran, as well as Azerbaijan or Central Asia. Keep that in mind.
6) Not only Nizami praised or liked Firdowsi (Ferdowsi), but many others, including other Turkic poets and scholars, as well as myself, any Azerbaijani, etc. Also, let’s not forget on whose order did Ferdowsi wrote the Shah-nameh – or we suffer from memory loss? It was none other than sultan Mahmud Ghaznevi – a Turkic ruler of Ghazna. Hence, saying that Nizami was Persian and not Azerbaijani (Turkic) just because he praised Ferdowsi is ludicrous and absurd. Only a modern day Persian chauvinist and racist would assume that everyone is like him, and that everyone Turkic would hate/dislike/look down on anything and anyone Persian (or Iranian in general). In Azerbaijan, the undoubtedly Persian (ethnically) Saadi, Hafiz (Hafez), as well as Persian-Tajik poets Ferdowsi, Jami, Rudaki are very much liked and appreciated.
7) Now with yet another baseless and inaccurate, indeed, totally false statement of Mr. Doostzadeh: “Now as per Albanian, Albanian (Arrani) did not exist anymore during Nizami's time and the Albanian church was already incorporated into Armenian Church and became part of the Armenians”. This is utter and total rubbish from a person who does not know and simply cannot know history of Caucasian Albania (Arran), as most advance research on it is available only in Russian, as well as in Armenian, Azerbaijani, Georgian, English, some German, Italian, Turkish, and only then perhaps in Persian and other languages. Let it be known that the Alban Apostolic Autocephalous Christian Church was illegally abolished and merged with Armenian Apostolic by the decree of the Russian czar only in 1836 (!), with further decision by the Russian Christian Church Sinod on transferal of all property, documents, as well as destruction (!) of some documents in the beginning of the 20th century. Until the 19th century, the ever-dwindling Alban ethnos was still present, and the various Alban principalities were constantly re-established in Arran, particularly the Khachen principality of prince Hasan in 12th century and one of his sons, Shahinshah (that title by then was not corresponding to reality) Hasan Jalal in the 12-13th centuries. This prince/shahinshah Hasan Jalal build the Gandzasar Church in the Gandzasar Monastery in 1216-1238, which was the seat of the Alban Church Catholicos (Pope). There are many famous Alban Christian historians of that era, contemporaries of Nizami. Thus, the Alban ethnos, while severely degraded, was still very much alive and functioning, and any statements to the contrary are false.
Moreover, the “Albans” were never an ethnos in the strict sense – they were a nation, like Iranians or Azerbaijanis or Georgians or Russians – which included many other ethnic groups, in fact, according to Strabo, 26 different ethnic groups, speaking different languages and not understanding each other.
Then, the only rightful heirs to the Caucasian Albans can be only Azerbaijanis – all of them for that matters, from the “purest” of them, the Udins, as well as Lezgins, Gels, Kryzes, Hinalugs, Alpans (none of them kept their Christian faith or alphabet), to the much bigger mass of people who are Azerbaijani Turks, and trace their heritage to such Alban Turkic tribes as Chols, Gargars, as well as Huns, Sabirs, Khazars, and others.
Only a smaller portion of Albans was Grigorianized and became Armenian – those are mostly the inhabitants of Karabakh (Artsakh) and Zangezur (Syunik). Thus speaking of some general “genetic testing” showing that aside for Azerbaijanis, Armenians are “closest people to Albanians” is improper. What are those studies?
8) Neither J.Meisami in her 1995 book, nor definitely prof. Talattof, both Iranians, claim that Nizami was ethnic Persian. Also, neither does Encyclopedia Britannica, opting for the vague and indefinite term “Persian poet”, which essentially means Persian-language poet – which indeed Azerbaijani Turk Nizami, along with Uzbek Alisher Navoi or Turk from India Khosrow Dehlevi were. Any scholar claiming that Nizami’s father was Persian is simply not a scholar – there is not a single shred of evidence of that and plenty of factual arguments of his father and Nizami’s own self-view as Turk.
Indeed, this is why none other than Saeed (Said) Nafisi, whom Mr. Doostzadeh referred to and holds in high esteem, told the visiting Russian (Jewish) academician Marr in Iran in the 1930s: “Nezami is not a Persian poet, he lived and worked in Azerbaijani environment, and his poems are incomprehensible to Persians” (Source: Yu.N.Marr. Articles and messages. Collection of works, Vol. II, p. 266. ).
Thus, I don’t know how could Nafisi “agree” upon labeling Nizami as ethnic Persian, if he said the opposite to a trustworthy and authoritative academician Marr? Same goes for Vahid Dasgirdi. But then of course we realize how taboo it is in Iran to name anyone, especially famous, as Azerbaijani, or even Turk. Better label everyone “Iranian”, which might over time transform into simply “Persian”, because often that term is all-inclusive, like American, British, or Russian.
9) Whilst it’s nice to see that some Iranians were reading Russian-language sources and carefully saved the 1988 issue of the Soviet Culture magazine, it should be noted that the article by Mikhail Kapustin in that magazine – who never published anything on Nizami before – coincided with a similar article by Armenian author Grachik Simonyan in the Grakan Tert newspaper. Both articles ignored modern research, including by a true Nizami specialist Armenian poetess Shaginyan, and repeated the same old, irrelevant, sometimes false claims – such as the Qom theory – and conveniently ignored all relevant Turk references in Nizami’s works, while selectively citing anything favorable to Iran and Persians, often going overboard by misattributing words of shairvanshah Ahsitan to Nizami himself (which is in essence the same what Mr. Doostzadeh and others do too). So Mr. Kapustin wrote in an era, when pressure of not the Communist party, but money from wealthy and powerful Armenian diaspora was prevalent, especially as the latter fully dominated M.Gorbachev’s government in charge of economy, sciences and culture.
10) Mr. Doostzadeh goes on to make more baseless and groundless assertions: “Neither did the formation of an Azarbaijani ethnic group exist. There is simply not one poetic manuscript of this language from the caucus prior to the Ilkhanid mongol invasion, long after Nizami”
For his knowledge, the following writings in Azerbaijani Turki have been preserved from BEFORE the Ilkanid ear: historian Masud ibn-Namdar (12th century), Alim ibn-Mukhenna (12th century), poet Ali (1233). Of course the fact that there are such great Turkic eposes as Dede Korkut and Oghuz Nameh, which are oral stories from at least 1300 ago, and oldest manuscript of which was written in 1053, and use a very rich language, proving that the Azerbaijani Turki language was well formed by Nizami’s time – although of course its all relative, since the process of evolution and development and perfection is endless. Before Turki became popular among poets in 15th century, Persian was, yet before it, Arabic – read Meisami’s intro on that – or that of Ferdowsi, who as he says himself, saved Persian language from extinction. Today we write in English, a century ago we would have written in French. As the Armenian-edited Great Soviet Encyclopedia acknowledged (the Soviet equivalent of the Encyclopedia Britannica), “Literary Azerbaijani language began to form from 11th century.” That is, before Nizami.
As famous Arab historian and traveler Ibn Azrak wrote in 1070, “Ganja is the great capital of Turks”. Another historian, of the Khorezm-shah, Jalaladin Mangiburni Nasawi noted, that “In Arran and Mugan, the Turks, like ants, are too numerous to count”. Note that Nizami writes about both Arran and Mugan when describing Shirin and Mihin-Banu.
11) Nizami was a Muslim, and was a Sunni, and a Sufi. He was not Shi’a, and was definitely not a very Orthodox or otherwise strict Muslim, contrary to what ideologically motivated Iranian writers might claim.
12) The shirvanshah’s were only nominally under the Seljuq’s and their regents, the Azerbaijani Atabeks, and did not pay them or mention in the prayers or coins. It is not secret that they were enemies and nemesis, and that’s why Shirvan had a strategic alliance with another nominal vassal, but enemy of Seljuk Empire, Georgia. Akhsitan’s mother was Georgian queen Tamar.
Likewise, Seljuks were no more Persianized culturally than any other Middle Eastern nation Arabized or Mongol Ming Dynasty “Chinized” or Moghuls “Indianized”. Likewise, Persian (Iranian) kings had all kinds of inter-marriages and mixes, and in general, Iran was Turkic-ruled for at least one whole millennium.
13) Here’s another example of Mr. Doostzadeh mistranslating his native Persian language – or actually, the 12th century Dari: “Nizami understood Arabic, Persian, Bukhari(Soghdian Persian/Iranian dialect) and Tabari (Mazandarani Persian/Iranian dialect”. Unknown to Mr. Doostzadeh is that Nizami actually writes and means the following: “In Arabic I read everything and in Dari, The book of Bukhari I read, the book of Tabari” (this verse, which Mr. Doostzadeh includes in Farsi, is from Haft Paykar (Seven Beauties)).
Mr. Doostzadeh confuses the famous historian At-Tabari (~839-923) and religious scholar imam Al-Bukhari (~810-870) with “Bukhari” and “Tabari” dialects. Bravo, way to go! Or maybe here too everyone in the world was wrong, and only Mr. Doostzadeh saw the light?
By the way, this verse, along with an analogous verse from Iskandar-nameh (“Aside from newest histories, I also studied Jewish, Christian and Pehlevi books”) is yet another proof of Nizami being non-Persian and being Turk – why on Earth would a supposed “Persian” boast about conducting research in his “native” Dari Persian? Why put “native” Persian on the same line with clearly foreign Arabic (all this despite the fact that Nizami obviously had excellent proficiency in many languages)? Why name clearly foreign Jewish and Christian religions and put the Pehlevi, which is supposed to be the religion of his forefathers, according to Persian chauvinists, on the same line? It does not make sense – it’s the same as Shakespeare writing that he conducted his research in French, Swedish and …. English, and that he consulted Muslim, Jewish and Christian. When we write our resumes or CVs in the USA or UK, do we actually put English language proficiency on it in the section of languages?
14) Afrasiyab, a name that was spelled/pronounced in such a way in Shahnameh, is also known as Alp Er Tung in Turkic mythology. And Mr. Doostzadeh’s name is Ali – does it mean he is Arab?
15) I don’t care what search results from Google will yield vis-à-vis Shirin – I’ve already stated very clearly that she could not have been Armenian, and was clearly Azerbaijani (Arrani) Turk. And her name in Azerbaijani, unlike in Armenian, also means “sweet” just as in Persian. For example, Armenian (!) expert on Nizami, M.Shaginyan dismissed the mistaken assumption of Shirin being Armenian – I have the page from her book scanned, just in case someone doesn’t believe. How poorly educated one has to be to say that Shirin was Armenian if she just travelled (i.e, not lived!) to Armenia, a geographic concept to begin with as there was no independent Armenia either in Nizami's time or in Khosrov time. I guess F.Kafka was ethnic German or ethnic Czech, since he wrote in German and lived in Prague -- but in reality he was Jewish. Ayatollah Khomeini was probably French -- after all, he travelled and lived in France. And I guess myself, along with you, are pure Anglo-Saxons for writing in English. Shirin was an Azerbaijani (Arrani) Turk -- she had those slanted eyes, that you consider an insult, she drank kumis (the Turkic - nomadic - horse's milk), her ansestor, as mentioned by Nizami, was Turanian ruler Afrasiyab, who was also ancestor of Mihin-Banu -- the queen of Arran (Barda) and Shirin's aunt, who pocessed and ruled all of Arran and Armenia.
Here are some relevant verses (from “Shapur’s story about Shirin”) (quick translation into English mine, the first verses are about Mihin-Banu, Shirin’s aunt):
There, beyond the chain of mountains, … where happy Derbent, and sea, and gulf, There is a woman…. Boiling of her army reached Isfahan. Till Armenia Arran mighty region belongs (is obedient) to her. My ruler, know this: many regions send her tributes like a lamb/cap in hand. In the world there are probably no happier creatures (people). Countless castles she has in the mountains. <….> In the days of rose Madam will travel to Mughan …. In the mountains of Armenia she roams/roves in the summer …. And when autumn will come – and there, she does a raid on the game in Abkhazia In the winter she is in Barda. Defiant (scorning) times of year, she lives, forgetting, what is foul weather.
(from “Flight of Khosrov from Behram Chubine”):
In impassible (bad) roads he penetrated into Arran , From there he traveled to Mughan : in Mughan did Shirin live .
Later, there is a chapter entitled “Travel of Shapur to Armenia after Shirin”, in which Armenia is not named anymore, but it is clear from all the previous context that Armenia, a geographic notion, was PART of the greater Arran kingdom of her aunt (not mother, aunt!), Mihin-Banu (or Mahin-Banu) – and Shirin was to be Mihin-Banu’s successor on the throne, according to Shapur’s story to Khosrow.
16) Finally, what is seemingly “insulting” and “derogatory” to Mr. Doostzadeh and various modern day Persian racists in regards to portrayal of Turks in Nizami’s Khamse is actually very much loved by those Turks themselves – of course, this is due to different understanding of the connotations and meanings that Nizami put into that term. What is “insulting” to a Persian when Nizami writes about a “Turkish conquest/invasion/incursion” (“Torktaz” and “Torktazi”), is actually appreciated and liked by an Azerbaijani, since from the whole context of the poems, as is affirmed by scholars, Nizami inputs exclusively positive connotation to that word and those seemingly “violent” and thus “negative” terms. Turks are always used as fair, just nation and rulers (see “Story about the sultan of Sanjar”), great warriors (in a positive way), dedicated and honest, beautiful.
And once again, Mongols were not even known to Nizami. As was not Kor-oglu, who was at best a 17th century phenomenon. Meanwhile, Nizami in his 5 epic poems had to write about what was popular and wanted to the patrons – and even Turkic rulers wanted smth about either Persian or Arabic rulers. What Nizami wrote in his Divan we won’t know for sure – 90% of it is lost. Yet the 10% that remains you should know and not deny that it doesn’t exist – read the very same Dastgirdi or Nafisi for one about the lyrical poems from the Divan (which they separate into several categories ranging from 100% Nizami’s to “maybe/probably” Nizami’s or even most likely not Nizami’s. Which is no different from 5 poems in essence – there too some ideologically motivated scribers made changes and inserted various couples, like with Qom.
Anyways, I can go on and on about this, but have neither the time, nor the will to have a senseless argument.
--AdilBaguirov 05:33, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Much of what the user wrote has absolutely nothing to do with the issue of Nizamis father. He should read this article to know that he can not push his pan-turkistic agenda in Wikipedias main entery: So Mr. Baguirov
And let me start with his sentence: Extensive comments and corrections are necessary to Adil Baguirov’s talk, since he either is very partial, preferring to concentrate on one and not another, or severely misinterprets some facts or mistranslates and misattributes, or is outright false on others. (Psuedo-scholars usually use such language since they can not prove their point and need to operate psychologically).
One can take a look at pan-Turkic Chavaunism and racism with regards to Talysh, Tat, Lezgi, Kurd, Armenian people. (Okay you might disagree but there are some people amongst these groups with different opinions and that is what counts). So lets not discuss issues that are not related. Every country in the region has its own problems!
1) On point one. Again Nizami did not write in Russian. Many Russian and USSR scholars have confmired Nizamis ethnic Iranian identity. Specially after the USSR breakup. Everyone knows that the scholarship of the USSR is tainted. The user is not aware that the general policy of wikipedia is to use what the most recent scholars think about Nizami and not scholars from 50 years ago from USSR. What Mr. Adil Baguirov needs to show, is actual sources from foreign scholars after the USSR breakup! Indeed in the USSR one could not argue with Stalin as the following article has shown.. but after the breakup famous Russian and Armenia scholars totally rejected the theory of Nizami Ganjavi having to do anything with Azarbaijanis. So Mr. Adil Baguirov needs to bring up new sources and not stuff from 50 years ago by some soviet scholars. Indeed USSR scholarship was tainted when it came to ethnic issues. It must remembered that Nizamis work were not translated into Azeri-Turkish prior to the USSR era and furthermore Stalin did his best to mold Nizami into an Azarbaijani Turkic speaker. A clear example of two forgeries by Caucasian Azarbaijani scholars is a verse relating Nizamis father to a wolf which does not even have a correct rhyme! and also attemps by some of the psuedo-scholars to change the word Kurd to Gurd which is not supported by any manuscript and furthermore makes the rhymes meaningless. Indeed I can write much about manipulation of history in some of the former USSR countries, but lets stick to the issue.
See the following article, the first one in English and the second one in Persian about USSR scholarship and Nizami Ganjavi: Stalin and Nizami
Indeed in the article above, (one of the greatest mass murderers in history) writes: Stalin even quoted passages from Nizami showing that he was forced to write in Persian language because he was not allowed to talk to his people in their native language Indeed such a nonsense claiming Nizami as a coward (and indeed no one can create master pieces forcefully in literature in a language they do not want to write in!) under the Seljuqid Turk, deserves only laughter. But USSR scholars could not challenge Stalin. Stalin writes: He emphasised the view that Nizami was a victim of Persian oppression of Azerbaijanis and he opposed Persian oppression of minorities. This was the nonsense ethnography that USSR scholars were forced to follow.
Fiftieth Anniversary of a great Falsification
Specially the part about Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox should be read by this person
So Mr. Baguirov whose degree is in Economics and whose opinion goes against major University Professors like Julia Meysari and Iraj Bashiri.. who are not from 60 years ago btw! , is the one vandalizing. Simply said a person that can not read Persian, can not claim to be an expert in Nizami! Whereas for Russian, that is not needed since I brought some major Russian scholars that disagreed with Mr. Baguirov's thesis and I can name some Armenian ones. So although the literature in Russian could be worth reading on subjects of Nizami, it is tainted because of the direct invovlement of Stalin and the USSR. (See below for more comments).
Academic editions of Nizamis jewels also have been carried in Iran by Dr. Baraat Zanjani and this is the latest edition. At least Dr. Zanjani has had 20 years of education of Persian and many years of teaching experience. So he is more of expert, despite the usual character assassinations that will be carried out by non-Persian speakers like Mr. Baguirov.
And also Mr. Baguirov wrote: Also, IV) Persian/Farsi, is just like any other language – no more, no less, thus let’s not over-idealize or otherwise idolize it. A language as means of communications perhaps. But as you can see by this article, Persian is just not any other language and a language requires culture and history and civilization to produce masterpieces like Nizami Ganjavi. Indeed this whole bickering proves that Persian is just not another language, but it is amongst the richest languages in terms of literature and lots of people who today can not even read, would love to claim one of their masterpieces as part of their own culture although poetry belongs to the culture it is produced in. Because it is the property of the language that brings about the masterpieces. So there is nothing wrong with telling the truth.
Finally unlike Ottoman Turkish or English Beowulf, Persian of Ferdowsi, Rudaki, Nizami, Hafez, Sa'adi, Rumi can be understood easily by anyone that has gone through the Iranian education system. Ferdowsi for example which predates Nizami can be even understood by illiterate people, because it is simple yet profound. Similarly many parts of Nizami. Indeed to understand all of Nizami's poetry you do not need more than a 8th graders education in Persian. This is not over idolazing Mr. Baguirov, it is fact. Persian has changed very little since the 8th century A.D. because its poetry is constantly read by its speakers and so the same words are used and recycled.
Mr. Baguirov continues: Being a native speaker of the 21st century Persian/Farsi is not sufficient – especially since much of our discussions centers on various historical facts and references. , which again is false since much of Nizamis poetry is thought in its original language in the Iranian education system. For example in the third grade text Persian textbook, the first lesson is directly 10 verses of Nizamis praise of God and starts with the line (ay naameh to behtarin sar-aghaaz - bi naameh to key konam baaz). And also his poetry is plastered throughout Persian school textbooks. Also it should be noted for Mr. Baguirov that what is insufficient is NOT knowing Persian! Because Nizami is alive by the Persian language and translations do not do justice to his work. Indeed a translation by a Russian for example, means a translation by someone that does not have the education of the native Iranian. Just like for example if somebody is going to translate poems from English, it is better to have the education of the English system through the 16 years or so, rather than learn it from a few university courses. As per Jalal Khalegh Motlaghi, after the Russian edition, Professor. Dabir Sayyaghi produced another edition. The Moscow edition is also very incomplete and it relies mainly on one manuscript that was not available readily to Iranian scholars at the time. So the process of making a more complete manuscript is an ongoing process and Dr. Motlaghi's monumental task shows it and he himself is Iranian BTW. Also from Ferdowsi there is about 1000 manuscript and the Shahnameh was much more vast than the Pan-Ganj. The Pan-Ganj manuscripts also need to be divided by 5. So the two tasks are very different and definitely the Ferdowsi one is much harder and Dr. Khaleghi Motlaq has shown some of the problems of the Moscow edition (which shows that the USSR is not perfect).
The above articles shows that Nizami was made large amongst the republic of Azarbaijan due to the efforts of Stalins nation building policty. It has very damning quotes from scholars of that republic that is not necessary for me to state it unless the issue continues.
Indeed this strong statement from a Russian scholar of Iranian studies, by the name of Mikhail Kapustin in 1988 (during the time when the soviet union was opening up to the world and there was no pressure on scholars to manipulate fact) wrote in the cultural magazine of Soviets: Nizami Ganjavi is one of the greatest thinkers and poets of the middle ages and belongs to the exceptional heritage of Persian literature. He had no connection with the current culture of Azarbaijan. And Azerbaijanis (he means the caucus ones that consider themselves Turks) are making a useless effort to claim and make him of their own. At the time of Nizami, Azeri-Turks did not exist in Azarbaijan. (sovietkaya kultura (soviet culture) magazine, 27 of December, 1988) was taken from the source above.
This is a strong statement. If I was a ultra-nationalist like Mr. Baguirov I would claim Nizami as a Persian and use such statements and then we would go back and forth. The fact is that Nizami has no verse calling his father any ethnicity and so we must do as Encyclopedia Britannica does. And by the way when judging a Persons ethnicity, we do not use 12th century standards these days, but the modern time, where both female and male lineage are important (thanks to female suffrage). Furthermore many scholars have called Nizami Persian and Iranian, and so I do not want to bring this battle back and forth. The fact is that your quotes of 1950's scholar under Stalin has no academic value compared to the lastest statements of great scholars. Also I do not want to make this a battle about Nizamis ethnicity, but it should be about Nizami and his work. But I can seek Armenians who speak Russian and would help me dig up all the statements with regards to Nizami in that magazine and other magazine close to the breakup. Also Ibn Howqal has clearly mentioned no Turkic in Armenia and Arran and his time is close to Nizamis. So is the book Hodood-al-Alam.
By the way the Russian scholar that made that strong statement is is not Armenian and even if he was, it doesn’t matter! Since you are using some Armenian from 1950, whereas I can use tons of Armenian scholars from now when the USSR censors and Stalin are not at work! And personally there is no proof that Armenians gave Mr. Kapustin money to write this unless Mr. Adil Baguirov has picture of an Armenian giving a suit case of hundred dollar bills to this Russian scholar of Iranian studies! This is what happens when you talk to a pan-turkists (Well Mr. Baguirov calls his opponents many names). Their absurd logic is necessary to deny fact. By the way there is an article about how some Azarbaijani historians deleted some lines in a book about Karabagh in another page. Not that I care, but I do not want to get involved in Armenian-Azarbaijani stuff. Okay? I don’t care, I am Iranian and Iranian ethnicity.
2) Again I emphasize, the user does not know that Iranians can read Persian language of 12th century with almost no problem. Even the Persian language of Fedowsi and Rudaki are read with no problem. Modern Persian essentially has changed very little since the Arabic invasion and its develop. Nizamis being born under the Seljuqids does not mean anything as million of other Iranians were born in it. The user also does not know something about Iraq which I am forced to tell him. In Persian literature, the word Iraq is used to refer to two lands. One is Iraq-e-Ajam (Hamadan, Qazvin, Esfahan..) and one is Iraq-e-Arab (modern Iraq). Nizamis dedication of poetry to Turkish rulers as well as the non-Turkish ShirvanShah has no bearing on his ethnic identity. That Jalal Khalegh Motlaqi used many editions and one was the Shahnameh of Moscrow, has no bearing on the issue of Nizamis ethnicity. The most recent edition of Nizamis work is by Prof. Barat Zanjani which is more updated than any Russian manuscript. Understanding Persian is essential to undering Nizami. Understanding Russian, is not as essential specially with tainted USSR scholarship.
3) It is good that the user agreed that Nizamis mother tongue is Kurdish. There is no such thing as an Azarbaijani Oghuz Turk Kurd culturally! A Kurd is a Kurd. An Iranic/Iranian speaker with Iranian folklore (Khosrow o Shirin, Shahnameh..) and Iranian language. Azarbaijanis are defined as Turkic group speaking an Oghuz branch of language. There is a somewhat uneasy rivalry between Azarbaijani and Kurdish separatist right now in Iran over some mixed cities and Kurds definitely do not get along well with Anatolian Turks (Also speakers of Oghuz Turkic language). Heck Kurdish politics doesn't bother me and it is not related to this issue.
Kurds have been in the area much longer and can not be absorbed into Azarbaijani Oghuz Turkic grouping. Kurdish mother by ethno-linguistic standard and cultural standard does mean that Nizamis mother is at least Iranian (ethnically). Also when someones mother tongue is Kurdish, most likely they pronounce words in Kurdish! Since Nizami's father died early as well (even if his language was Bantu).
4) The user claims that I said Nizamis third wife was Afaq. This is just a false lie and I would advise the user to not mistake the whole article, as being written by me. Indeed different people over time have contributed to it. The word Afaq is not Appaq. No manuscript has the word Afaq and Said Nafisi has shown correctly that Nizami just mean that his wife was his horizon and the reading by Vahid Dastgerdi that Afaq was the name of his wife is in dispute. Here is a serious scholar of Persian whose native language is Persian. So indeed Mr. Baguirov who can not read Persian and does not know that Persian has 'p' and there is no need for Nizami to put the arabicized version of a name! Specially when for example he has used Persian pronounciation "alp Arsalan" instead of "alb Arsalan"(Arabicized). Indeed to the average Persian speaker, the interpretation of Prof. Nafisi is correct. Also it should be remember that she was a slave girl sent by the ruler of Darband. Currently that “Afaq” was her name is in dispute by some scholars and so it is can not be guaranteed as Nizamis Kurdish mother.
What the user does not understand is hat in Persian bot-e-Qifchaq although literally does mean the idol of Qifchaq. But in Persian language, the people of Qifchaq were know to beutifull and symbolically in Persian literature, anyone that was beutifull was called bot-e-Qifchaq, Bot-e-Tabat (Tibet), Bot-e-Khotan (Khotanese), Boto-e-Khata .. That is why this part can be taken into dispute while the Kurdish mother is 100% clear.
All manuscripts have wrote Afaq. There is absolutely no evidence that Afaq is Apaq! Indeed Afaq is a clear Arabic loan-word meaning the sky-horizon. Ferdowsi for example says: در آفاق هر جا ز نزدیک و دور نبد کآن نه فر یافت نه نور
And many other examples in Persian poetry. One can not just make up false claims that 100% her name was Afaq and then go from Afaq to Apaq (which is not even in any manuscript). That is simply not accurate. One can propose a theory but the accuracy of it is up to debate and it is sufficient for it that some serious scholars dispute it. As per Afagh, she was a slave girl sent to Nizami as a present. And she easily could have learned Persian, Kurdish.. (you do not need education to learn to converse in several languages. Over time it develops. Plus Nizami had at least two other wives).
Mr. Baguirov writes: Moreover, in the very same beyts, Nizami admits that he modeled his heroine Turkic (Azerbaijani) Shirin after Appaq (Afak): “You too, my Afak, vanished (died) as Shirin
This again is a forgery and lie. Prove it by bringing the original Persian as it is not in the two prints available to me.
Nizami at that part only uses the word Afaq once:
سبک رو چون بت قبچاق من بود گمان افتاد خود کافاق من بود
Furthermore, Nizami uses the word "Afagh" to praise different rulers.. like he calls one of the sultans: The ruler of Afagh (The ruler of horizon).
سرو سر خیل شاهان شاه آفاق چو ابرو با سری هم جفت و هم طاق
He calls this ruler: The cypress head of the armies of the king of kings of horizon (Afaq)
Here is one about alexandar: سکندر که خورشید آفاق بود به روشن دلی در جهان طاق بود Sekandar keh Khorshid Afaaq bood Eskandar who was the sun of the horizon
Nizam praising Bahram: شاه آفاق و شهریار جهان The king of Afaqh (horizon) and the prince of the world
If Afagh was the name of Nizami's wife, then indeed the poet would have resevations using such terms and indeed some the above verses would be lewd. For example if your wifes name is YY, then you not call someone else the king of kings of YY. That is why Said Nafisi's intrepretation is correct. All over the Panj-Ganj the word Afagh has been used in its true meaning horizon (about 40 times). And Nizami has said that his wife is like his horizon. BTW I agreed with Dr. Grandmaster to use Iraj Bashiri's information on this, although it is wrong and out-dated. But we must use all of his information and not the ones we like. Also Dr. Bashiri has credential as a major Western University Professor.
Going back to this issue, again Mr. Baguirov has put words in my mouth. Tork-Zaad means born of a Turkish slave and sometimes Turkish mother. And again Nizami could have even continued his symbolic language and for all that is known, he could have meant “turk” to his wife in a symbolic manner as Hafez and many other Persian poets did and did not have an ethnic meaning. This is used a lot in Persian literature and over 90% of verses about Turk/Hindu/Roman/Zanj(African) are symbolic since ethnic conscioussness and pride was not that much of an issue amongst some of the major Persian poets. So this area is also grey unlike Nizamis Kurdish mother. Now as per the word Tork-e-Zaad. Zaadan is a verb to give birth and Tork-e-Zaad in Persian literature as opposed to Turk, means a person whose father is Persian/Arab and his mother is a Turkish/Turkish slave. It is women that give birth and not man incase Mr. Adil does not know! I refer to the Dehkhoda dictionary and examples of this in Persian literature. The first time such a word is used is by Ferdowsi (which Nizami was an avid reader of) when referring to Hormozd the Sassanid king whose father was the Sassanid king Anoshiravan and whose mother was from the Gok-Turks, sent by the Khaghan of Turks as a present to Anoshiravan.:
Ferdowsi says:
سخن بس کن از هرمزد ترکزاد که اندر زمانه مباد آن نژاد
Sokhan Bas kon az Hormozd-e Torkzaad Keh andar zamaaneh mabaad aan nezhaad
The translation is:
End all this talk about Hormozd the Tork-Zaad May such a race (Nezhad) never exist in time
And again Ferdowsi says about Hormozd:
که این ترکزاده سزاوار نیست
کسی او را به شاهی خریدار نیست.
Keh in Torkzaadeh sezaavaar nist kasi raa beh shaahi kharidaar nist
This Tork-zaadeh is very incompetent No one supports his kingship
Note Hormozd father was a pure Iranian king by the name of Anoshiravan.
In Dekhodas dictionary we also read: کسی که زنی ترک او را زاده باشد A person who is born by a Turkish female.
So Ferdowsi has already defined this term as you can see above (and this is the first time we see it in Persian literature) and Mr. Adil Baguirov should be aware that in order to study Nizami, one know Shahnameh very well. Indeed Nizami has praised Ferdowsi many times., something no Turkish nationalist would do! And indeed Ferdowsi is the best example of Persian poetry of 9th century. Now by the definition above, Nizami was not a Turk or else there is no need to mention the mixed race "tork-zaad" instead of "tork". The term slave wife is not derogatory because I mean it as the sequential step. She was a slave given by the ruler of Darband to Nizami and then became a wife/concubine (these two are grey areas in some aspects of Islamic law and Nizami had at least three wives in his lifetime).
5) Mr. Adil keeps saying the Qom issue is a proven fact. The fact of the matter is that some scholars have stated it. Prof. CE Wilson, Prof. Dastgerdi and Prof. Julia Meysami. Indeed it is not only in some manuscripts, but even in some compositions. For example a text about the history of Qom, 400 years old has mentioned it. So this is not 100% proven fact. It is a “maybe” and “perhaps”. And about manuscripts, some older manuscripts of Shahnameh for example are less incorrect then some other manuscripts that have come more recent. It must be remembered that multiple sources for manuscripts have existed. So again there is no such thing as proven fact, but there is concensus. So there is a maybe, perhaps and etc.
6) Mr. Adil does not know that at least indo-Iranians where in the area since the time of Mittani. The first mentioning of Persians/Medes (who spoke pretty much the same language as attested by Strabo with slight sound changes) in the area is 832 B.C. in Assyrian chronices. Indeed Herodotus (1/206, 4/197..), Diogenes Laertius (5/2), Diodorus (9/31), Plutarch, ..) have called the Persians as Medes many times, beside the fact that Herodotus, Strabo and Moses of Choren (a paid Armenian!) call the medes Aryan. Also not to digress, but what has the arrival date of Persians in Iran have to do with Nizami!
Also Mr. Baguirov might not know that Turks at that time pretty much has a tribal background. So it was either Oghuz, Qifqach, Khattai, … And Nizami does not belong to either of these, as no evidence has been provided and his fathers name shows no Turkish tribal order either. Zoroasters language is by the Avesta and is very close to Old Persian. See Kent's manual on Old Persian where almost 80% percent of Old Persian and Avesta are the same. Indeed the Avesta was the major tool in deciphering Old Persian. The Caucasian Albanians according to sources were pagans not Zoroastrians. But either way Zoroastrian is an Iranian religion by all accounts and not a Turkic one. As Mr. Baguirov pointed to Turkic Shamanism many times and this was the overwhelming religion of Turks before adopting one of the Abrahamic faiths.
7) We knows that Turks arrived much later in the area. Mr. Adil Baguirov does not know that Tabari is a Persian historian writing in Arabic and he considers others as Chauvinist. Indeed remarkable. And it shows that he is the one that is trying to deny other peoples history! Although Tabari has nothing to do with Nizami, it would be good that Mr. Baguirov mentioned the Arabic quotes by Tabari. The problem is that Mr. Adil Baguirov, who lectures authors on geography did not know what Araq-e-Ajam mentioned. Now he made another mistake because he does not know that Khorasan was not only the western part of modern Iran, but it referred to a large part of Afghanistan and Central Asia. As per the Nizak Tarkhans, although Tabari mentions them as Turks, others have mentioned them as Hephtalites. Indeed Prof. Richard Frye mentions
«در منابع غربی و خاورنزدیک لفظ های گوناگون "سکا، هون و ترک" همه دلالت دارند بر مردمان استپ. اما چینیان برای آنان نام های دیگری داشتند. پس همه مردمی که در دشت های آسیای میانه می زیسته اند یا از آن جا به خاور نزدیک یا اروپای شرقی در نیمه اول هزاره اول پس از میلاد آمدند، هون نبودند و این که در منابع غربی یا خاور نزدیک قومی را هون خوانده اند، کنایه از آن است که از دشت های آسیای میانه سرازیر شده اند نه این که به راستی هون باشند».
Which means that in old Western and Middle-eastern historiography , the terms “Scythian, Huns, Turks” and any tribal nomadic group living in central Asia was referred to these names.
The term Tarkhan (and not Tarhan, I am wondering if Mr. Baguirov is from Turkey or the republic of Azarbaijan, since Azari Turkish has kh), is general military title and it was used by Soghdians for example. (See Shanmahe about the Tarkhan of Samarghand whose name is Bijan and who is Soghdian).
Anyways the point I wanted to mention is that Mr. Adil Baguirov has put part of Afghanistan (Central Asia and the Ratbils and Nezak Takhans) as part of modern Iran! Also he did not know the difference between Araq-e-Ajam and Araq-e-Arab, while anyone versed in middle Persian historiography knows it. Finally, if any groups of Turks can be claimed as Azarbaijani, then any groups of Iranians like Soghdians, Parthians, Scythians can be claimed as Persian. So Mr. Baguirov must concentrate mainly on the Oghuz language which Azarbaijani Turkish is descendant of and which was the language of the Seljuqs (Although the seljuqs in Anatolia derided the term Turk).
(with slight repetition)
Mr. Adil Baguirov makes some other weired claims. He wants to say Zoroastrianism is not Persian (it depends on the definition, but Persian means Persian empire of Sassanids who were the main force of Zoroastrianism and Nizami even took some heat from ultraorthodox muslims in praising Zoroastrians), but we all know it is Iranian. Also many travelers have described the language of Azarbaijan during the Sassanid and Islamic era as Persian, Azari-Pahlavi (Azari dialect of middle Persian) and etc. And ancient sources have used the term Persian and Iranian interchangeably. For example Masoudi the Arabi historian writes (and I have brought the Arabic quote unlike Mr. Adil Baguirov):
English: According to the famous historian al-Masu'di, who lived in the 10th Century AD, the Persians are: a people whose borders are the Mahat Mountains and Azarbaijan up to Armenian and Aran, and Bayleqan and Darband, and Ray and Tabaristan and Masqat and Shabaran and Jorjan and Abarshahr, and that is Nishabur, and Herat and Marv and other places in land of Khorasan, and Sejistan and Kerman and Fars and Ahvaz...All these lands were once one kingdom with one sovereign and one language...although the language differed slightly. The language, however, is one, in that its letters are written the same way and used the same way in composition. There are, then, different languages such as Pahlavi, Dari, Azari, as well as other Persian languages. (Al Mas'udi, Kitab al-Tanbih wa-l-Ishraf, De Goeje, M.J. (ed.), Leiden, Brill, 1894, pp. 77-8)
Persian: «مسعودي» مورخ اوايل سده‌ي چهارم ق. در كتاب خود "التنبیه و الاشراف" (ص 8-77) پس از ذكر نام بلاد ايران (مانند: آذربايجان، ري، طبرستان، گرگان، هرات، مرو، سيستان، كرمان، فارس، اهواز و…) مي‌گويد كه: «همه‌ي اين بلاد، كشوري واحد بودند و پادشاه و زباني واحد داشتند جز اين كه در برخي واژگان تفاوت‌هاي داشتند … مانند پهلوي و دري و آذري و ديگر زبان‌هاي فارسي».
Original Arabic:
فالفرس أمة حد بلادها الجبال من الماهات وغيرها وآذربيجان إلى ما يلي بلاد أرمينية وأران والبيلقان إلى دربند وهو الباب والأبواب والري وطبرستن والمسقط والشابران وجرجان وابرشهر، وهي نيسابور، وهراة ومرو وغير ذلك من بلاد خراسان وسجستان وكرمان وفارس والأهواز، وما اتصل بذلك من أرض الأعاجم في هذا الوقت وكل هذه البلاد كانت مملكة واحدة ملكها ملك واحد ولسانها واحد، إلا أنهم كانوا يتباينون في شيء يسير من اللغات وذلك أن اللغة إنما تكون واحدة بأن تكون حروفها التي تكتب واحدة وتأليف حروفها تأليف واحد، وإن اختلفت بعد ذلك في سائر الأشياء الأخر كالفهلوية والدرية والآذرية وغيرها من لغات الفرس.
And by the way at the time of Nizami, there was still large groups of Iranians in Central Asian steppes, (Soghdians, Chorasmians, Alans) and etc. So the Iranian nation was huge as well and two of the great people are Zoroaster and Cyrus the great known from the pre-Islamic times.
As per the etymology of Azarbaijan, it is just sufficient to say that term Azarbaijan and Nakhjivan are not in any old Turkish manuscripts and this is important point. Also the name is clear and it comes from Atropat, the Median ruler, as Strabo has said. Also the word Atropat is in Avesta and in Pahlavi the name of the province was Aturpategaan. Naxchirvan is not Turkish either and is either Armenian or Persian. The term "Van" mostly likely went from Middle Persian to Armenian. See I.M. Diakonoff, the history of the Medes, where he discusses this name clearly. And also the Encyclopedia Iranica has done nice etymological work on the name. And also see the Encyclopedia Iranica on Azari (ancient language of Azarbaijan) language, to see that Iranian related dialects were still majority before the mongol invasion and even after the mongol invasion. So the people of Azarbaijan were not Oghuz Turks during the of Nizami and new Turkic rulers were just propping up and gradually moving in.
And by the way some 1946 USSR scholar does not know much about Shirvanshah and Iranian scholars have refuted their silly claims. I have explained the above verse and I will do so again. Firstly Nizami heavily praises the ShirvanShah. Secondly he quotes the Shirvan Shah in beutifull poetry:
تُرکی صِفَت وَفای ما نيست
تُرکانِه سُخن سِزای ما نيست
آن کز نَسَبِ بُلَند زايد
او را سُخن بُلند بايد
Torki-sefat VAFAAYEH (emphasized for explanaion) maa nist Turkish manners are not part of our faithfullness Turkish tongue is not befitting for us The person who is born of great lineage (he is belittling turks) The words of his must be of great ascent (belittling turkish language)
Now what Mr. Baguirov does not know that the term Turk (with many shades of meaning) had also came to mean wrong-doer, plundered. For example Sanai says: To Torki o Hargez Nabood Tork VAFADAAR (You are a turk and a Turk never had any faithfullness). Another poet Asadi Toosi says: VAFAA na-ayad az torkaan hargez padid- vaz Iranian joz vafaa kas nadid Faithfullness has never came from Turks, but from Iranians everyone sees faithfullness Asadi Toosi by the way wrote the Loghotnaameh-Parsi Asadi in Azarbaijan and some of the Azari-Pahlavi terms can be found in that book.
Ferdowsi says about Turks:
Keh torkaan raa baa kherad nist joft (That turks do not possess with logic and wisdom).
Of course a character is saying it, but this is still rough. Also the major dispute between Mahmud and Ferdowsi is rumored to be because of ethnic(Iranic vs Turkic) and religious conflict (Shi'i vs Sunni). Nizami despite being a Sunni, praises Ferdowsi and has shown which side he takes in that dispute and so does the Shirvanshah.
The term bi-VAFAA (faithlessness and honorlessness) about Turks has a long history in Persian poetry and I just mentioned Sanai and Asadi Tusi, two Persian poets, living prior to Nizami. Indeed Asadi Tusi although originally from Tus (Khorasan and also the hometown of Ferdowsi and Nasir ad-Din Tusi and Al-Ghazzali..), moved to Azarbaijan during the Shaddadid era Nizami who was another Persian poet uses the same language
Now what Mr. Baguirov does not mention is very heavy praises Nizami bestows on the Shirvanshah in that poem and he does not belittle the Shirvanshah at all. Mr. Adil Baguirov needs to quote a 1946 USSR scholar whose theory was refuted by Iranian scholars, including the Iranian Azarbaijani scholars Abbas Zarin Khoi. The problem again is the USSR historiography which is not reliable when it comes to ethnic issues. Indeed most of the same USSR scholars also tried to show Nizami Ganjavi as anti-Islam. And some scholars have taken the above couplets to mean that Shirvanshah were not going to be stingy, like Mahmud of Ghazna was to Ferdowsi. Other scholars have simply taken it very literally with no attachments.
Also it has been asked of Mr. Baguirov to bring the actual Persian when he referring to Nizamis. And his son and Nizami Ganjavi have also praised Shirvanshah in the introduction. Mr. Baguirov needs to bring verses, something he can not either do or does not wish to do, since he does not have a knowledge of Persian to defends his obscure theories. And let us remember that the Persianized Arab dynasty of Shirvanshah (who drew their lineage to Sassanid kings showing the Iranian ethnic identity of the area) did not understand Turkish, for Nizami to write for them in Turkish! This point is not even mentioned by Mr. Baguirov. Indeed why would an Arab descendant king, who wanted a composition of a pre-Islamic Arab story, and who did not know Turkish, want something in Turkish! The correct interpretation of the above verses, when references with other Persian poets (something Mr. Baguirov does not know, since to understand Nizami one needs to understand Ferdowsi and Sanai and etc..), is clear as I have demonstrated above. Indeed if Nizami had any Turki-Sefat, then he would not heavily praise Shirvanshah and write couplets belittling Turks in his introduction. A poet would never degrade their own kind in this manner and write couplets about it and praise the Shirvanshah.
And Ibn Howal who lived in 980 AD has clearly mentioned the language of Arran, Armenia and Azarbaijan as Persian, Arabic, Armenian … and has not said anything about Turkish! Also unlike what Baguirov thinks, Turks were not even majority in Azarbaijan, after the mongol invasion. See Hamdollah Mosftavafi who wrote about the Iranian cities of Azarbaijan after the mongol invasion. He describes Tabriz, Zanjan, Maragheh.. as all Persian/Pahlavi speaking. I did not get the point about Tat, Talysh, Kurds and etc. But they are Iranians cultro-ethno-linguistically. Just like Turkomens are a Turkic people. What is the problem?
7) About Sultan Mahmud Ghaznavi, indeed Mr. Baguiorv perhaps is suffering from memory loss (Just rephrasing his own nasty words). Because not only his mother might have been a slave of non-Turkic origin, but much more importantly he indeed falsified a geneaology to make him a descent of Sassanid kings. There is not even one Turkish poem from his court! And his court poets have consistently referred to him as the king of Iran. Like Farrokhi and Onsori.
The rest of the racist/chauvinist mumb-jumbo is irrelevant. Indeed Mr. Baguirov keeps writing irrelevant stuff that has nothing to do with Nizami's father!. But it is well known that the Ottomans looked down upon the term Turks and I can provide many references. I do not care about the racist/chauvinist mumbo-jumbo, I care about writing history correctly, as the way it should be. History like today has had racism. Sometimes Turks lived peacefully with Iranians, sometimes they attack Iranian civilization, sometimes there was mutual culture exchanges and etc. For example here is a quote from Aflaki (a student of Rumi) about Turks (indeed the later Seljuqids pretty much did not consider themselves Turks in Anatolia as neither did Ottoman. Their Persianization happened once their domain extended and Persian became their court language). From Aflaki (Rumi's student) There is a well known story that the sheikh Salah al-Din one day hired some Turkmen workmen to build the walls of his garden. "Effendi Salah al-Din", said the master (Rumi), "you must hire Greek workmen for this construction. It is for the work of demolition that Turkish workmen must be hired. For the construction of the world is special to the Greeks, and the demolition of this same world is reserved for the Turks. When God created the universe, he first made the carefree infidels. He gave them a long life and considerable force in such a fashion...that in the manner of paid workmen they constructed the earthly world. They erected numerous cities and mountain fortresses...so that after centuries these constructions served as models to the men of recent times. But divine predestination has disposed of affairs in such a way that little by little the constructions become ruins. He created the people of the Turks in order to demolish, without respect or pity, all the constructions which they see. They have done this and are still doing it. They shall continue to do it day in and day out until the Resurrection!"
So as you can the rivalry between Iranians and Turks existed, which is a fact. Sometimes there was constructive relationship and sometimes destructive (due to constant plunder of various Turkic tribes which had to do with their way of nomadic lifestyle and not necessarily with their genes. Indeed Germans where like that at one time in history and so where the Vikings..).
7) The Albanian-Armenian-Azarbaijani debate is hot one and not necessary. Sufficient to say is that Albanians are not related to Azarbaijani Oghuz Turks nor Armenians nor Iranians. They might have been influenced somewhat by Iranians or Armenians or other cultures, but they were not that important in the Persian empire of the Sassanids. Indeed Armenia was always contested between Rome and Persia, but Caucasian Arran ususally was Persian territory and the Romans even paid tribute in order so that the Persian/Iranian army maintains the city of Darband. So Mr. Baguirov calling Arranis as turks made the major mistake and by calling shirin an Aranian Azarbaijani Turk showed his lack of scholarship and his ultra-nationalistic manipulation of the issue. And as per rubbish (again rephrasing Mr. Baguirov) you have wrote so much rubbish that if I listed them, it would at least be 20 errors if not! For example the word Manjuq which many Persian poets used. Dooghbaa is Persian word and not Turkish. Also thinking that Central Asia is part of Iran. Or not knowing about Araq-e-Ajam and Araq-e-Arab. Obvisouly as an anti-Armenian, Azarbaijani nationalist, you are trying to belittle the Armenian people. The fact is Armenian present is the caucus is well known before Oghuz Turks. Also as per Ganjah, Ibn Hawqal describes all of Arran and Armenia and he says nothing about Turkic in the area. He calls the languages of the region, Armenian, Persian, Arabic and etc. (See the article Azari in Encyclopedia Iranica) BTW I have the ARABIC of Ibn Azraq and it is best if you provide the actual passages in Arabic, since you have made a good amount of blunders already. Indeed Ganjah was the capital of the Kurdish Shaddadids at the time of Ibn Azraq and Nizami was a Kurdish from his mother and all these information makes him likely a Kurd given that a Kurdish chieftans daughter is not given to foreigners by tribal customs unless they were very important, whereas we know Nizamis father was not some Turkic ruler or something. (It is slightly degrading actually as can be seen by somes tribes of Iran even up to today to give daughers away although this mentality is being gradually done away with). Indeed the fact that she is related to a Kurdish chieftan and not slave girl(nothing derogatory about this term), and this makes her ethnic identity very important when discussing Nizami. Indeed Nizamis father died much earlier than her mother, so he had a Kurdish upbringing (assuming that his father was something else).
Also Qatran Tabrizi belittles the horders of Oghuz tribes who attacked Azarbaijan around his time and it shows that they were totally foreign to the area in every aspect. The poetry of Qatran clearly shows that Oghuz Turks who lived a nomadic lifestyle were intruders. Indeed Naser Khosrow in his travels does not say anything about Turkish in the area at the time of Qatran. For example in Ikhlat (a city in modern Turkey), he meantions Armenian, Persian and Arabic. Ibn Hawqal says the languages spoken by people of Armenia and Aran were part of Persian. He writes, The language of people of Azerbaijan and most people of Arminiyeh is Persian and Arabic . Some tribes from Armenia and the like speak languages that are like Armenian. The same is true about people in Dabil and Nahvi (Nakhichevan). The language of Barza'eh people is Arani and the mountain known as Caucasus is theirs around which heathens with various languages live. (943-969 A.D). Al-Istakhri mentions similar fact. So does Ibn-Nadeem.
8) Prof. Meisami has mentioned the Qom. Prof Talatoff does not mention anything. Encyclopedia Britannica does not mention anything. THAT IS WHY I SAID THAT THE ETHNIC BACKGROUND OF HIS FATHER IS UNKNOWN. OR ELSE THE ENYCLOPEDIA BRITANNICA AND MANY OTHER SOURCES WOULD SAY SOMETHING. HELLOOO! And by the way CE WILSON translated the Haft Paykar in English and he said Nizami was Persian from Qom. He is much more of scholar than some pan-turkists and he did not live under Stalin to be forced and manipulated. The fact is the Qom part is not only in some manuscripts but also in some biographies about the city that are 400+ years old. Also the villages mentioned still exist today. So it is a possibility although various degreeness of likelihood can be assigne to depending on different takes.
9) About your point 9. All your mis-readings were easily rejected and is due to your lack of not understanding Persian well plus just copying and pasting nationalistic literature of your republic. As per the words of Shirvanshah..again the poet that formed the couplets was Nizami and he had the choice not do so. Shirvanshah was not the poet. Furthermore the introduction of the poem was written after the composition of the jewel. As per Prof. Kapustin (and not Mr. Kapustin), he is a major scholar of Iranian studies and Persian poetry is very inter-related and for example to understand Nizami, you need Ferdowsi. Especially the epic of Alexander in the Shahnameh is very close to Nizamis version in many details (Alexander visiting Mecca, Fighting the Khaghan, Fighting the Gog and Magog, Marrying the Daughter). Also exploits of Bahram Gur and the story of Khusraw o Shirin is included in large parts in the Shahnameh. He is a Russian Professor and you can't degrade him by calling him Mr. and then saying he received Armenian money! (where is the picture of the suit-case and exchange of hands!).
10) I have Nafisis Book (published in 1960) (with by the way many quotes from European scholars about Nizami and nothing about him being an Oghuz Turki) and he clearly states Nizami as Iranian many times. Yeki Az Bozorgtarin Shaa'eraan Iraan (One of the greatest poets of Iran). Furthermore in one passage when he quotes Nizamis "Torki sefat vafaayeh maa nist..", he clearly states that many people of Ganjah did not welcome the intrusion of Turks (pg 45) and interprets Nizamis verse in that way (belittlement). Your Russian source is bogus when someone has a book written by Said Nafisi from 1960 and Said Nafisi did not say such a thing in his book. Else lets here the Persian words of Dr. Nafisi as he did not speak Russian! Nafisi's book is also of later date so makes you false claim actually invalud. Also we do not have such a statement from Said Nafisi and heresay does not count. Indeed the USSR made a lot of bogus claims on ethno-scholarship and Academic Marr is no exception. And what an big time idiot a person has to be to attribute nonsense to Said Nafisi and say that Nizamis poems are incomprehensible to Persians! He might have meant to the average uneducated Persian speaker (one that has not gone through the school system). Whereas Ferdowsi for example is easier to grasp. Any educated Iranian can read all of Nizami and understand it, sometimes with a small dictionary help to look up some terms. Said Nafisi who has full book about Nizami and constantly mentioning him as a Iranian/Persian poet (Shaa'eraan Iran), so we can reject your statement. Also his book is written later than 1934 when Marr dies. So that is a double reject. Finally there is a host of Iranian and Iranian Azarbaijani scholars from Iran who have rejected the Turkic theory. Five of them are: Dr. Dabbir Sayyaghi, Dr. Abodl-ali Karang, Dr. Barrat Zanjani, Dr. Abbass Zayab Khoi,Dr. Amin Riyahi Khoi amongst many others. And they all lived after Stalin and three of them are alive right now.
Indeed none of Nizami's story have anything to do with Oghuz Turkish folklore and that is why his work was translated even later to Azarbaijani Turkish than even English, French and German! Despite the proximity of the two languages! Also Nizami clearly states that he looked into Persian, Arabic, and perhaps Bukhari and Tabari(see my comment and response on this issue) but nothing about Turkish! Either Turkish was not comprehensible to him, or Turks did not posses a literature related to Nizamis stories. Indeed in the following article by a Turkish professor ((Tourkhan Gandjei, BSOAS, University of London, Vol. 49, No. 1, 1986), we read:The Oghuz tribes(Azarbaijani Turkic speakers speak Oghuz language and are considered Oghuz by the nationalists) which formed the basis of the Saljuq power, and to one which the Seljuqs belonged were culturally backward, and contrary to the opinion advanced by some scholars(He mentions a pan-turkic scholar by the name of F.(Fuwwad?) Koprulu), did not posses a written language. Thus the Seljuqs did not, or rather could not take steps towards the propagating the Turkish language, in a written form, much less the patronage of Turkish letters.
And taking your usual unfounded argument,just because he didn't look into Kurdish, it doesn't mean he wasn't Kurdish and didn't know its folklore! The chain of unfortunate absurd arguments never ends, but in the end of it, it will never make Nizami more/less than what is known about him today. The Academic Marr by the way was originally a good scholar, but his later otheories were Psuedo-Scholarly as everyone knows. Also with Stalins interference in ethnic issues, one has no choice but to write the party line. That is why the theories of the USSR about Nizami were debunked around 1988 and that is why you go back to scholars that had no choice in the USSR era and had to follow Stalins lines and can not come up with even single Professor in Persian literature in a major University in the West to backup your claim. Where as I can. Also Said Nafisi, in his book Babak Delawar-e-Azarbaijan clearly states that the Turkic Oghuz language took place later on and Babak was Persian (Pahlavi speaker). Furthermore in describing Nizamis father, he does not say anything about ethnicity and constatly refers to Nizami as an Iranian poet and nothing about being an Azarbaijani poet or anyway related to Azarbaijani Oghuz Turks! Soviet psuedo-Scholarship on ethnicity and religion where even denying Nizami Ganjavis Islamicness and also making up bogus stories like Stalin about him writing in Turkish (something all scholars now agree that is bogus), does not deserve serious attention. Also give your sources for Oghuz Turks (and not Huns of mixed ancestry) encroaching and settling in Northern Iran of today. The Sassanid were pretty much control of the area and the area was Pahlavi speaking even up the 12-13th century as mentioned by many sources. (See Azari (Iranian language) in Encyclopedia Iranica). Also See Safar-Nama of Naser Khosrow, Ibn Hawqal, Istakhri, Ibn Nadeem and tons of other medieval geographers which have described the language of Azarbaijani as Persian/Pahlavi, and that of Caucus as Persian/Pahlavi (which they probably included Kurdish in, since the two languages share about 70% lexicon), Arrani (Caucasian Albanian), Armenian, Arabic..
10) Again I make the statement that there does not exist any Azarbaijani Turkish literature before the Ilkhanids from Azarbaijan. Dede-Korkut by the way uses the word Istanbul (a term around only about 500 years ago) and Farooq Summer has put it way after Nizami. Its oldest manuscript (and I think there is only one and two) is not that old. Dede Korkut contains 300 Arabic words and 160 Persian words which shows that it developed way after. These Arabic words and Persian words did not exist during 1300 years ago in the Oghuz language and the stories of Dede Korkord are indeed totally very different than the stories of Nizami in many respects. Although I am sure elements of Turkic mythology could be found in the stories, but still the composition is way after Nizami and this has been Proven by Dr. Firouz Mansuri by analyzing geographies, Persian words, Arabic words and etc. in the story. Also more importantly this work was introducted to the world by German scholars and has been incorporated recently into the various Turkic countries identity. Faruk Sumer in dates to the XVI century according one source.
Again TWO different cultures. Mr. Adil Bagiurov needs to provide factual reference from Western Scholars on the first piece of evidence of Azarbaijani Oghuz Turkish language. Indeed Gerhard Doefer has not mentioned any Oghuz Turkish prior to the Mongol invasion from the area as far as I have read his work. Also I checked under Masud ibn Namdar (Namdar btw is a Persian word and that was his fathers name) and only two Azarbaijani sites came up! (the same google sites falsely claimed Qatran Tabrizi and Homaam Tabrizi as a Turk, although the first one totally derided Turks and the second one has some Taati/Pahlavi poetry as well , but no Turkish).
And in the google search on masud ibn namdar one book by the title: "Majmu'a qissas wa-rasa'il wa-ash'ar" came up which does not sound Turkish. The article in Persian I mentioned above has shown many example of falsehood revisionism in the Azerbaijani republic. Even the Avesta has been claimed to be old Turkish!
Also my reference for no Oghuz Turkish from Azarbaijan prior to the Ilkhanid era is the book by Dr. Javad Heyat, Sayrri dar Zabaan Torki (who is well known amongst pan-turkist circles) as well as the book Tarikh-e-Azarbaijan by Dr. Javad Mashkur. Two authors with completely different thought patterns. So it is up to you to provide western scholarly references.
11) Actually no serious Iranian scholar has claimed Nizami to be a Shi’a. Although there exists some people who are over-zealous, but I am talking about serious scholars. Plus with the exception of Ferdowsi and Naser Khosrow, the other major Iranian poets are Sunni: Hafez, Rumi, Attar, Sanaii, Nizami, Sa'adi. As per turkification of the area, this was not written by me! . Neither is the Encyclopedia Britannica an Iranian source. Hopefully Genetic tests of the future which have shed light on this issue, will resolve it for those who disbelieve, once and for all. Recently it has been proven that Yaquts show the least genetic variety amongst all Turkic speaking groups. This is another discussion though. But let me mention in one sentence that the amount of falsehood coming out of the some of the scholars of the caucus is overwhelming although I have some articles about it. Basically, Avesta being old Turkish!, Armenians being Turks, Caucasian Albanians being Turks, Medes being Turks, Khazar and Azar have the same root! (example of really crazy etymological work)..such statements were made and are still made by some of the Professors in those caucasian republics while books by some neutral scholars like Prof. Eghrar Alioff have been reported to be burnt by some over-zealous ultra-nationalists.
12) A sufficient proof of Seljuqids being Persianized is their distaste for the term Turk in Anatolia and the negative connotations of the term Turk prior to Ataturk in that area. Also later kings took names like Kehkhosrow, KeyQobaad... all Shahnameh names.
13) Actually the verse mentioned by Mr. Adil Baguirov( whose rudeness only exceeds his ignorance) about Bukhari and Tabari is this: زان سخن‌ها كه تازي است و دري در سواد بخاري و طبري وز دگر نسخه‌ها پراكنده هر دري در دفيني آكنده
Zaan sokhon keh taazi ast o Dari Dar savaadeh Bokhaari o Tabari
The translation by Mr. Baguirov has some problems: In Arabic I read everything and in Dari, The book of Bukhari I read, the book of Tabari
Because the first line is: Zaan Sokhon keh taazi ast o Dari (Those words that are in Persian and Arabic, and also those in the form of Bukhari and Tabari).
The second line: Dar savaadeh Bokhaari o Tabari
The key word here is سواد whose Persian equivalet is also کالبد. They both mean form.
Again this can be taken two ways. And I had indeed considered it to mean the two Iranian scholars Imam Bukhari and Imam Tabari, but Nizami uses a key word Noskheh-haa(manuscripts), which makes me lean more on Tabari and Bukhari as languages (as some authors have done in Iran and other authors have disagreed). Because the first verse is also about languages as well. If he used Ketaab (books), then I would have the other interpretation. Both interpretation can be correct and historically valid. Because the verse is from Haft-Paykar which is a Persian Sassanid story of Bahram Gur (which btw Nizami describes his battles with Turks gloriously). That is why there is not a strong connection Imam Bukhari here. So it could have been another Bukhari or the language of Soghdians which was rich in folklore. At the same time Sassanid/Iranian folklore was available in other Iranian dialects like Soghdian and Tabari. A good example is the Marzaban-Nama originally in Tabari. These two dialects have been mentioned by different historians. So the verse can be taken either way and has been taken to mean the meaning I gave by some scholars. What is clear is that it has nothing to do with search in Turkish materials.
14) Afrasiyaab of the Shahnameh is Avesta word. Also all the Turanians in Avesta have Iranian names. And even if Kashgari assigns Afrasiyaab a Turkic name it is 1500 years after Avesta! The ethnicity of Turanians is not clear, but most scholars are leading towards an Iranian group. I ask Mr. Baguirov to provide the verses about Turan and Afrasiyaab in Khusraw o Shirin! But he didn’t reply yet. I even provided verses from two other poets about Shirin being Armenian. (Shirin-e-Arman). She definitely was not an Azarbaijani Oghuz Turkic speaker.
15). Mr. Adil Baguirov repeats the same statement about Shirin! But the fact of the matter is that I brought verses from other poets that consider Shirin as an Armenian. Indeed there is no mention of Turan or Afrasiyaab in the Khusraw o Shirin as I have searched these words several times. So I am waiting for a reply! For the rest of his statements also he can not bring the relavent verses. From example about nomadic horse milk, where is the verse? Where is the verse about Afrasiyaab? Where is the verse about Turan in Khusraw o Shirin? And to show the real ignorance of Mr. Baguirov, it is well known that Shirin was a Christian and not some Shamanistic horse milk drinker. According to historical sources, Khorsow married a certain Irene (note it is not a Turkic names) and the Persians called her Shirin. Also not only in Persian poetry, but in Turkic poetry Shirin is considered Armenian (There is a typo here and Farshad should not be Farhad and Farhad was from Iran and not Central Asia), but the site is not pro-Armenian: Also this is well known fact around the world
What Mr. Baguirov does (well after he kept calling me names) is that does not look at all the evidences. Indeed Mahin Banu is called the ruler of Armenia and Arran and Abkhazia. But at the same time, Nizami clearly writes tha Khusraw sent Shapur to Armenia, he writes: برنده ره بیابان در بیابان به کوهستان ارمن شد شتابان که آن خوبان چو انبوه آمدندی به تابستان در آن کوه آمدندی چو شاپور آمد آنجا سبزه نو بود ریاحین را شقایق پیش رو بود گرفته سنگهای لاجوردی ز کسوت‌های گل سرخی و زردی
Line one: “Beh Kuhestan Arman Shod Shetaabaan” ((Shapur who was assigned to retrieve Shrin) was sent hurriedly to the mountains of Armenia)
What Mr. Baguirov does not know is that Ibn-e-Wazih Ya'qubi and Baladhuri have put a large part of Georgian, Arran and other parts as Armenia. This is a few amongst many and what is important here is that the scholarly community has not disagreed about this fact since at least 1988! And furthermore there is absolutely not even one iota of proof that Shirin was a Turkish Oghuz speaker!
What Mr. Baguirov does not touch upon is the other two poets Amir Khosrow Dehlavi and Vahshi Baqfi who have clearly mentioned Shirin as an Armenian. The relavent verses were already brought. Quoting Mr. Baguirov,How poorly educated one has to be not to look throughout the Persian literature on the ethnicity of Shireen and then see why in Iranian/Kurdish folklore she is Armenian. Furthermore Mr. Baguirov said before:Shirin was an Azerbaijani (Arrani) Turk . But Actually Arrani (Caucasian Albanians) are not Azarbaijani Oghuz speaking Turks! That is like saying Anglo-Saxons are Arabs.
So scholarship produced in the last 20 years had no disagreement on this and Western scholars have always considered Shirin to be Armenian by looking at many different Persian poets. That is the key. You can't analyze Nizami, without analyzing Ferdowsi, Sanaii, Attar, Asadi Tusi... They are all part of the same culture and use the same lexicon. The funny thing is that Mr. Baguirov says: And her name in Azerbaijani, unlike in Armenian, also means “sweet” just as in Persian. Well actually the word is Persian and not Azerbaijani Turkish originally. This is important and in the pre-Islamic era, Persian had not influence Oghuz Turkish and vice-versa.
What Mr. Baguirov does not know or knows but tries to hide it, is that scholars after the breakup of USSR, as well as Western scholars have mentioned Shireen as Armenian. For someone that does not know Persian like Mr. Baguirov and then claim that he knows more than Persian and Iranist scholars is actually a true show of ignorance. Yes the chapter “Travel of Shapur to Armenia” is very important. Why isn’t it a “Travel to Turkistan”! Although Shireen is an Armenian in Persian poetry (Nizami, Vahshi Baqfi, Amir Khosrow Dehlavi ..) in reality she is said to be the daughter of emperor Maurice by some sources as well . You see when Vahshi Baqfi calls her Armenian, Amir Khosrow calls her Armenian, Iranian folklore calls her Armenian, and even Khosrow sends Shapur to Armenian.. then she is definitely not an Azarbaijani Turkic Oghuz speaker.
16) Mr. Baguirov is racist as well(well he accused me of it but his distate for Armenians shows it). Indeed if Khamseh had anything to do with Azarbaijani Turkic speakers, then it would have been translated long long ago to that language and not in the historically manipulated era of Stalin. As per praisal of Sultan Sanjar the Seljuq, other Persian poets have done that as well (even some modern ones) and he is known as relative just king. Also the story is about an old lady complaigning to her. And whenever the words Hindu/Turk occur together, they are taken as symbols rather than ethnicities. As per negative words about Turks, we can look at Alexanders reference to the Khaghans and the Shirvanshah said about Turks. Both justification that no Turk would write such a poetry insulting their own kind. And as per the term Torktaazi, it does not mean incursion/invasion as much as it closer on the line of plunder. Burhaq Qati' mentions it as Taraaj (plunder). So does Farhang Rashidi, another old Persian dictionary. It comes from the two words Torki+Taakhtan. Such a negative term actually shows how Persian poets thought of plunder and the word plunder being synonmous with Tork-Taazi! And it is a term used by other Persian poets including Sanai. Also Mr. Baguirov does not know that Mongloid race does not mean Mongol. For example Chinese are Mongloid race like the Turkomens and Yaquts. Azarbaijanis and Iranians and Armenians and Greeks are Caucasian racially.
17) The quotes from Diwan of Nizami are not direct but indirect from works of other writers. Their veracity is questionable since a mix up of different poets is very common in Persian poetry. For example at one time Attar was assigned 100+ works but today it is about 5. Also here is some very good phrases Nizami praising Persians/Iranians: آهن شه چو سخت جوشی کرد لشگر ترک سست کوشی کرد
When the king Bahram Gur defeates the Turkish Army of Khaghan and it translates to:
The Sword/metal of the King became victorious - the Army of turks becamse wanderless and effortless
لشگر ترک را ز دشنه تیز تا به جیحون رسید گرد گریز
The army of the turk fromt he sharp spear, fled all the way back to the Jeyhoon.
And then afterwards:
هرکسی پیش او زمین می‌رفت در خور فتح آفرین می‌گفت پهلوی خوان پارسی فرهنگ پهلوی خواند بر نوازش چنگ شاعران عرب چو در خوشاب شعر خواندند بر نشید رباب شاه فرهنگ دان شعر شناس بیش از آن دادشان که بود قیاس
simply translation without imageries and symbolic language: Whoever entered the presence of the King (Bahram Gur), hailed his victory. The Pahlavi(middle Persian) Persian cultured musicians, played their lute for him. The Arabs composed poems and played the rhubab. The King who knew the culture, gave them much reward..
Here is Wilsons translation:
<body>
The hardness of the swarthy lions’ claws pounded
the brains of those whose swords were softRapid in action as the snake (their) shafts; from their effects the
horsemen fell and lay.Through the sharp dagger’s (work) the dust of flight reached the Turks’
army to the Oxus streamThe king such store of gems and treasure took that treasurers were troubled in the count.
Returning from that conquest to his realm, he showed for (all his)
people kindly care.In triumph then ascending to the throne, he garbed the world afresh in
New Year’s joysAll swept the ground before him (with their brows) and, suited to (his)
conquest, gave him praise.Singers in Pahlavī, with Persian tunes sang to the harp’s sweet sounds
in Pahlavī</body>
The above shows that Iranians and Turks had their traditional border of the Oxus and as has been pointed out numerous times, Bahram Gur is a Sassanid story.
Here is another Nizami verse: همان پارسی گوی دانای پیر چینن گفت و شد گفت او دلپذیر
Here is another one: And that wise old Persian said (to alexandar) and his words were received warmthly
Indeed Nizamis constant praisal of Sassanid Kings is in the tradition of Iranian poets. So if I were to use your arguments, then his father should be Persian. And every time I looked up Persian he has said nothing negative, whereas with Turk there is some negative verses as well. His fervent praisal of Shirvanshah after Shirvanshahs total belittlement of Turkic shows this as well. And I have read through that introduction many times. Again all sorts of arguments can be made, but in the end there is no direct reference to the ethnicity of his father, and so your POV can not be pushed, specially since not only Western scholars of Persian have not accepted it, but furthemore it has been rebuked by many Iranian studies scholars after the breakup of the USSR. That is why Tajiks were forced to say Nizami was an Azarbaijani during the USSR era (they couldn't argue since Mr. Stalins words were pretty much absolute there), but now they say he is Tajik.
18) After everything is said and done many many many times, we do not know about Nizamis father 100%. Only his mother is Kurdish and all his work is Persian and all of them have to do with Perso-Islamic culture if anyone reads Persian and not Turkic Oghuz culture like Dede-Qorqod or KurOghlu. That is why his works were never translated to Azarbaijani Turkic until 80 years ago! and you do not see Turkish folklore talk about Sassanids, but you do see it talk about KurOghlu, Oghuz Khan and etc. Two unrelated cultures. So going back about. We do not know although most likely one can conjecture Kurdish based on statistics. We do not know and that is what the Encyclopedia Britannica and other scholars who are neutral and who are of today (the last 15 years) have said. Indeed some of them totally rejected the USSR ethnography of Nizami and that is sufficient proof that Mr. Baguirov can not use material from the USSR from 60 years ago. Else CE WILSON clearly states NIZAMI is Persian. The fact is the Azarbaijani Turkic identity is based on Dede-Qorqrod, Kur-Oghlu and Oghuz folklore. Not Sassanid Persian folklore. So even if Nizami was an African, his culture heritage is for the Persian speaking world and his ethnicity although at least half Iranian, the other half will never be known, but most likely was not Turkish or else he wouldn’t belittle turks in some verses, praise Ferdowsi, praise the Sassanid Kings who were enemies of Turks and finally the name of his father is fully Arabic and does not contain any tribal Turkish title. So instead of jumping on other issues (after all is said and done, not that much hard feelings and I am used to such arguments in Misplaced Pages), the best way is to put Kurdish mother and then like the Encyclopedia Britannica say nothing else. If indeed Nizami Ganjavi’s ancestry had anything to do with Oghuz Turks or other Turks, Encyclopedia Britannica and the most updated references would have mentioned it, which they do not. I can bring moderators into this debate and they will finally agree with Encyclopedia Britannica and recent scholarship. So let us not make stuff up about his father. Also Mr. Baguirov who does not speak Persian and whose major is not literature, is in no position to prefer one scholar (say from 60 years ago) over another (say from now like Prof. Meysami or Bashiri..).
In the end , Mr. Baguirov can not claim Nizami Ganjavi as Azarbaijani Turk, since Nizami's father's ethnic origin will always been unknown, although most probably Kurdish. His father died early as well and Nizami was brought up mainly by his mother, (in Kurdish culture), so hence Kurdish Iranian ethnicity should be persumed. If the author persist, I will bring other Iranian, Armenian, Wikipedians into the issue and there is a good amount of scholars that have said Nizami Ganjavi is Iranian (Kapustin, Armenian Scholars, CE WILSON, JULIA MEYSAMI (Father from QOM) and most of these sources are much more recent and have nothing to do with the Stalinistic era where attemps where made to make Babak Khorramdin, Qatran, Khaghani, Nizami and etc. into Oghuz Turks.
Any typos and spelling mistakes from the above response is due to the fact that the response is long and unfortunately Mr. Adil Buguirov jumped from Armenians to Persians to Russians being paid by Armenian to Afghanistan to Dede Korkot to.. It has no bearing on the evidence provided and that is not trick to actually disregard the fact that Mr. Baguirov can not prove what he wants to prove, for me, nor the scholarly community of the West as well as those from the breakup of the USSR onwards. Else it would have already been said in the Encyclopedia Britannica. The main focus here is on Nizamis father and there is no verse that mentions his ethnicity and so anything else is guess work although most likely his father was Kurdish, judging by the non-Turkic character of Nizamis five jewels. Also let me assure Mr. Baguirov that Tabari has mentioned couple of persian poets from Azarbaijan in 8th century A.D. So Arabic and Persian developed there very early. Also there is a good amount of firetemples which shows the Iranian characteristic of the region. And also a good amount of Pahlavi inscriptions. Also if somebody say an African writes the best pieces of Irish folklore, in Gaelic, then I consider such a person as culturally Gaelic and not African. So what is really important is culture when it comes to poetry. A poet according to one site: lives through the language. If X was Armenian, but wrote the best Turkish poetry, then culturally he would be Turkish. So this point should also be sufficient. Mr. Baguirov says: Anyways, I can go on and on about this, but have neither the time, nor the will to have a senseless argument. So lets go with what Encyclopedia Britannica says and end it. His Kurdish mother is clear. Also I don't want to put the negative verses about Turks (like the address of Alexandar to Khaghan), the way Bahram defeats them and the Shirvanshah and also reference to the word Tork-taazi and Taraaji. Also Nizami has many positive words about Greeks, Armenians, Persians, Arabs and etc. This does not make him into any of these ethnicites. But that is not what the article is about and we are attempting to introduce the moral and the stories of Nizami Ganjavi. Also translations should preferably be done by actual university scholars. (Like CE Wilson and Julia Meysami). Mr. Baguirov does not know the minimal Persian (all of Nizamis work is in Persian)to cite himself in the main article. This was demonstrated by the discussions above. Else I can take all the text I have wrote already debunking most of the so called original research, and make it into article, (plus some help from those 1988 articles and beyond) and then cite it as reference. But that is against Wikipedias general policy on issues that are disputable. Mr. Baguirov should also be familiar with the Misplaced Pages guidelines:
.
Also the following article should be sufficient for this person to stop pushing his unscholarly viewpoint and pick and choosing which scholars he likes or does not like.
Specially the part about Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox should be read by Mr. Baguirov.
Also since he does not have a sufficient knowledge of the Persian language, and he is not a scholar of Persian litearture, his polemic can not be included in the references. Else I have some polemic works (or could gain access to it) by an Armenian/Iranian/Russian authors and I can also gather all the text here so far, and make a polemic work. And then the article entery would not be about Nizami. That is not the Misplaced Pages standard. All this said, Nizami contributed to Persian culture and just like some one that composes in English, is an English poet (the term does not necessarily denote ethnicity) , Nizami is a Persian poet and contributed to Iranian culture and his works were not translated until the last century in Azarbaijani Turkish. (way after German,French, English...).
Finally , Nizamis father although most likely was Kurdish as well (by simple statistical induction because he married a Kurdish chieftan and himself was not of any known nobility), although perhaps from Qom (as mentioned in some manuscripts).. but He could even have been a mixture. That is I can even say his father was a Georgian/Armenian/Persian/Turk/Kurd/Arab.. because his grandfather might have been Georgian and his grandfathers mother might have been Arab.. and so on and so forth. (who knows?). Unless you have a family tree of his father, then this discussion is over. The fact is we will never know or else scholars would have been unanimous. And so you can not bring ethnocenterism into Misplaced Pages article, specially since you are not a qualified scholar like Prof. Bashiri, Meysami, Wilson, Kaputsin, Riyahi Khoi,.. and specially many scholars that were not under Stalinistic pressure and are after the breakup of USSR. I could be nationalistic and make up stuff and (much more stronger stuff than the silly arguments debunked above) but I won't. Because there are literally hundreds of verses that can be taken to praise Iranians in one way or another. So lets be more neutral here like the Encyclopedia Britannica. --Ali doostzadeh 10:36, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Some Falsification by Mr. Adil Baguirov as well as some comments
Folks,
After searching alittle bit for readily available materials, I found the following falsification by the republic of Azerbaijani historian and ultra-nationalists. See for example these links:
Rewriting History: Recent Azeri Alterations of Primary Sources Dealing with Karabakh
Also this article shows that there are major debates right now about history and identity in the republic of Azerbaijan
Falsification 1)
Thankfully the book of Ibn Azraq is available in both English and Arabic. Indeed it has been translated into English. Under the name A Muslim Principality in Crusader Times. The Early Artuqid State, Carole HILLENBRAND, 1990 (PIHANS, 66) , XIII, 260 pp.; ISBN 90-6258-066-1. Thankfully there is a glossary as well and I looked under Ganja. On page 38 we read: Sultan Toghril Beg, son of Sultan Muhammad, who was the ruler of Ganja and Arran and he sent a shihna to them.. As the readers notice, this is totally different than what Mr. Baguirov claimed! Indeed the Seljuqs controlled all of Khorasan, Esfahan, Kerman, Iraq (Both Persian Iraq and Arab Iraq).. and etc. Indeed another Seljuq king by the name of Toghan Arsalan is called the lord of Arzan and Bitlis. The immorality of falsification not withstanding, it is like arguing that since the British controlled India and Hong King, then all Chinese and Indian scholars during their time of control were British!! The next mention of Ganja is on pg 43: In the year 515 (1121-2) there as an earthquake in the city of Janza, which is Ganja. Again nothing as Mr. Adil Baguirov claims! The final time Ganja comes up in this text is on pg 58: As for Sultan Toghril Beg, he sired Arsalan-Shah whose mother was the wife of the amir Eldiguz. He is now the Sultan from Isfahan, Hamadan, Azerbaijan and Arran up to the city of Ganja and Shamkur. (My Note: like overwhelming majority of old sources Azerbaijan and Arran were two separate lands.). So as you folks can see the first part of Mr. Baguirovs claim was a lie and no such statement was found in this historically important text. Also note the hundreds of Iranian poets and writers from all over Iran under Seljuqid administration! The absurdity of this argument was already rejected. It is as absurd as saying that Greek scholars under the Persian empire of the Achaemenids were Persian!
Falsification 2)
This falsification has to do with another big lie. Mr. Baguirov claimed that: For his knowledge, the following writings in Azerbaijani Turki have been preserved from BEFORE the Ilkanid ear: historian Masud ibn-Namdar (12th century). Indeed I not only did a Google search, but I checked couple of major University Libraries. For example see here: . As you can see, the book is in Arabic and it has been translated to Russian. And the title of the book is: Majmūaat qisas wa-rasāiil wa-ash'ār (The complete collection of stories, articles and poems) and the long title is completely Arabic. Note again the book is in Arabic and has nothing to do with Azerbaijani Turkic language!
The above two falsifications is a major breach of Academic honesty (there are much more: 1) where is Turan mentioned in the story of Khusraw o Shirin 2) Where is Afrasiyaab mentioned in this story? And much more…. One can safely say the same thing about the other wild theories of Mr. Adil Baguirov. Indeed he does not know Persian and yet he wants to claim himself as a great scholar and makes condemnations about scholars. Indeed the character assassination of the Russian scholar that said Nizami had nothing to do with Azerbaijani Oghuz Turkic speaker is indeed tragic. Surely, Mr. Baguirov does not have the reputation of Iranian studies scholars in top Russian universities.
Comment 3)
Now those are two major falsifications right in-front of the readers. I am not going to use multiple insults like Mr. Baguirov does, but as we can see, the materials outputed by the people of the republic of Azerbaijani is not reliable. I emailed Prof. Kamran Talatoff of the Arizona state University about the claims of some Azerbaijani scholars and he wrote back: It seems that many of these former soviet republics have been trying to make history and construct cultural background in the process of their attempt for nation building. The official websites of the Republic of Azerbaijan featured Nezami as one their own many years ago. This happened at the time when our own officials did not care much about our cultural heritage. . So Dr. Talatoff agrees (unlike Mr. Baguirov claims) that Nizami Ganjavi was not a Turk. Another major orientalist figure, probably the biggest figure I will mention so far is Prof. J. Rypka. In his article: Poets and prose writers of the late Saljuq and Mongol periods Jan Rypka Published in The Cambridge History of Iran Volume 5, 1968 , he writes (on pg 568):Hakim Jalam al-Din Abu Muhammad Ilyas b. Yusuf b. Zaki b. Mu’ayyad Nizami, a native of Ganja in Azerbaijan, is an unrivalled master of thoughts and words, a poet whose freshness and vigour all the succeeding centuries have been unable to dull. Little is known of his life, the only source being his own works, which in many cases provide no reliable information. We can only deduce that he was born between 535 and 540 (1140-46) and this his background was urban. Modern Azerbaijan is exceedingly proud of its world-famous son and insists the he was not just a native of the region, but that he came of its own Turkich stock. At all events his mother was of Iranian origin, the poet himself calling her Raisa and describing her as Kurdish. The only fact known about his youth is that he was orphaned early.. As people can see, here is the major orientalist on Persian poetry, (his multivolume work History of Iranian Literature is well known), who totally ignores the theory of the republic of Azerbaijan and shows that they are acting nationalistic. This is all the information we will ever have about Nizami for certainty and so polemics must be put to rest.
Comment 4)
One of the claims of Mr. Baguirov was that the Iranian academics do not use the critical editions or do not have access to it or.. But the most critical and academic publication of Nizami’s work has been done by Dr. Barat Zanjani. Indeed Dr. Barat Zanjani not only uses previous critical editions from the USSR, Germany and etc, but he shows about 30 examples out of many on mistakes of the USSR edition. The reason is that because the USSR scholars did not understand Persian well like a native speaker, they have made some editions that lack meaning. Indeed some of them were really ridicolous. Professor Zanjani has used more manuscripts and his edition is more complete than the USSR edition. If there is any need, I will demonstrate it with some of the poor corrections of the USSR edition.
Comment 5)
Another strong pro-Iranian verses (amongst many and I have already brought some negative verses on Turks (three or four times)). نژاده منم دیگران زیردست نژاد کیان را که یارد شکست
Nezhaadeh manam Digaran Zirdast Nezhaadeh Kiyaan raa keh yaarad shekast
Of the noblest race I am, the rest heed my command, Can any bring defeat to the royal Iranian (Kayanid) Race?.
Nizami also praises Romans/Greeks much more than Turks (whom he belittles sometimes harshly). He praises Ferdowsi although no one that has any Turkic consciousness would do so. He is accused by his ultra-orthodox opponents of praising the ways and cultures of Zoroastrians. So one line verses without context and without several verses below and above and without the use of understanding of the language of time and symbolic poetry, is indeed another wrong step which is taken by Azerbaijani republic theoreticians. Indeed I can also write the part about the Khaghan of Turks in the main page and also the big insult from ShirvanShah on the Turkic language and manners. So lets not over do it.
Comment 6)
Virtually all scholars acknowledge that excellent sophisticated poetry is a proof of high culture. And the medium of this high culture was indeed the Persian language. Nizami Ganjavi will never be part of Turkish culture because he contributed to Persian culture. He lives through his medium of expression and the culture that he enriched.
At least from the 8/9th century there is Persian poetry from the area, according to Tabari. Indeed Tabari (under events of 235 Hijra which is equivalent to 849 A.D) says about the ruler of the area:
حد ثني انه انشدني بالمراغه جماعه من اشياخها اشعاراً لابن البعيث بالفارسيه و تذكرون ادبه و شجاعه و له اخباراً و احاديث
Rough translation: Mohammad al-ibn Ba’ith (the ruler of the area) composed poetry in Persian(bel-Farsyah) in Maraga..
Also Middle-Persian was spoken in the area as can be seen by the names of the cities of the area and multiple inscriptions in Middle Persian.
We know the Shaddadid Kurdish dynasty of Arran were removed by the Seljuqs around 1067 and their capital was Ganja. The main backbone of the Seljuqs (who were part of the nomadic Oghuz tribes) were Oghuz Turkic tribes. These tribes did not posses high culture and literature and they were very recent migrants in the area. Indeed the Turks and specially the Oghuz tribes are derided by the Iranian poet Qatran Tabrizi (1009-1072) . Qatran calls Turks: Khoonkhaar (bloodsuckers), Ghaddaar (exceedingly honorless), Makaar (Liars and falsifiers), Afat (a tragedy!). Ironically Qatran Tabrizi is also molded into an Oghuz Turk in the republic of Azerbaijan! Note I have no problems against anyone that claims to be a descendant of Oghuz Turks today, but a lot of Persian/Arabic poetry and literature is also replete with the barbarism of Turks and specially Oghuz Turks. I have already mentioned that Stalin made a nonsense comment about Nizami having Turkic work! Well pseudo-scholars of Azerabijani republic, have always attempted to attribute falsely any Turkic piece they can find to Nizami although we know that all the work left by Nizami is Persian and this is in all the biographies. But furthermore out of the Russian sources mentioned by Mr. Baguirov (which are useless when it comes to ethnology due to the fact that no one could have challenged Stalins views), the term Azerbaijani can be taken to mean simply born from the current republic of Azerbaijan (which existed with this name only from 1918) and historically for the most part has been called Arran and Shirvan. So it does not necessarily mean an Oghuz Turk was meant by some of these scholars although again their work regarding ethnographics is useless due to the final verdict of Stalin and what is important is to show modern sources from Western Scholars of the last 15-20 years. Going back to the issue of Oghuz Turks, the nomadic Oghuz Turks had their own culture and Nizami had a different culture as evidences by his work. Indeed comparison of Nizami and Ferdowsi shows major intersections whereas comparison of Nizami and Dede Korkord shows two totally different worlds in many aspects. So culturally Nizami is not related to Oghuz Turks in any fashion.
Comment 7)
Encyclopedia Iranica has clearly mentioned Shirin as an Armenian.
Indeed this is proven by going through many different books of Persian literature and two examples were given by Vahshi Baqfi and Amir Khusraw Dehlavi.
Comment 8)
Finally, the term Persian language poet instead of Persian poet is not used and the correct term is Persian poet. Nizami is indeed today alive through his work and so that is indeed the true nature of Nizami. Because a Persian poet means more than ethnicity and it means culture as well. Since Persian was indeed a cultural language and Nizami belongs to this cultural through his masterpieces. Nizamis poetry is the best proof of the Persian cultural heritage as his stories give scholars detailed information about pre-Islamic Iran.
Finally as per ethnicity, although I am sure that Nizamis father was Iranian (most likely Kurdish), but since Nizami does not tell us anything directly about his father, then we must just confirm that his mother was Kurdish and be neutral. So he was at least half Iranian and one can not claim him to be a Turk by modern ethnic standards! Even if he was an African, he is assimilated to Iranian culture. Some of these facts could be hard for a person from the republic of Azerbaijan, and I do not want to spread bitter feelings. But the republic through the USSR’s effort has totally turned its back on its in Iranian heritage, its history has been manipulated and it is trying to build a separate non-existing heritage based on falsifications.
Any revision of the current article and to claim Nizami Ganjavi as an ethnic Turk is an allegation that has not been supported by scholars of the modern times and Western scholars. Also I have done babelfish translation of Mr. Baguirovs diatribe on Nizami and it seems all of it is very much answered above. Indeed it has been shownn false by variety of arguments, some which were given. So stop the historical revisionism and let this article like the Encyclopedia Britannica and other major Western sources, be neutral.
--Ali doostzadeh 08:58, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
The Evidence
Ali Doostzadeh (great work by the way) has posted a large amount of evidence. I have not seen any convincing evidence like the ones Ali posted by the opponents. The evidence posted is irrefutable is it not? This reminds of me of a quote:
Do not consider the intestinal conflicts of sects: For, not having found the truth, they went to the invention...
~ Hafez Shirazi Iranian Patriot 00:27, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Persian Chauvanism Accusations
quote: "Extensive comments and corrections are necessary to Ali Doostzadeh’s talk, since he either is very partial, preferring to concentrate on one and not another, or severely misinterprets some facts or mistranslates and misattributes, or is outright false on others. This is a continuation of the general policy of chauvinism, discrimination and racism displayed by some extremists and which results in the well-known events underway right now in South Azerbaijan’s (North Iran) cities of Tabriz and Urmiya, where 100,000’s Azerbaijanis are protesting the denial of their basic rights and general discrimination by the Iranian government and few Persian chauvinists (chauvinism, an extreme form of nationalism, is present in all cultures and people, by no means limited to any one nation in particular). By the way, the constant references that one writes in a “bad” Persian language are another testament of this – although, if I were on the place of the author, I would pay attention to the horrible English spelling and grammar, as well as mistyped Russian (e.g., “sovietkaya kultura” instead of “Sovetskaya kul’tura”) and even mistranslated Persian/Farsi (on that a little bit below)."AdilBaguirov 05:33, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
First of all, I would like to inform you that the Azeri cartoon, of which the Azeri's in Iran are not protesting, WAS DRAWN, AND PUBLISHED BY AZERI'S. Secondly, I would like to mention that it has been proven (by eye witness accounts) that Pan Turks from Turkey and North Azerbaijan have come into Nort Iran handing out Bozkut (Turkish Pan Turk political party) propaganda pamphlets and in some instances even started some of the riots. And another interesting fact that Turks always like to leave out is that Irans dictator right now is an IRANIAN AZERI, khamenei!
All of this "Persian Chauvinism" is a tool by pan Turks to destroy Irans history and Irans national integrity. The Pahlavi's were Gilaki, the Qajars were Iranian Azeri's, and the Safavids were Iranian Azeri's. Never have Azeri's and Persians been bad with each other, infact, they have worked together to create modern Iran. The Safavids and Qajars were Iranian Nationalists. Iranian culture and language flourished under them. Not until Pan Turkism came along that people suddenly started talking about Persian chauvinism, which doesnt exist.
Also, I would like to note that the West only knows Irans history as Persia. Westerners still think that Iran is a fictiotous name imposed on Iran by the shah who wanted to be closer to Nazi's. The fact is that Iran has always been called Iran and other variations of that, but westerners do not know this. They do not know Irans history like us Iranians know it. Persians, Azeri's, Kurds, Balouchi's, etc... know our country and its history, but westerners do not. So the only way to preserve our history in the English language and in the western world is to call it Persia and Persian since that is all westerners know. Trust me, I dont like it being called Persia and Persian, I would prefer Iran and Iranian but in today's world that wont work. Therefore, that is why the term Persian is used. And by the way, half of my family members are also Azeri.
the same thing is done with Rome. A lot of people who were not directly of roman descent were and are still labled as romans. some emperors are labled as romans, some architects are labled as romans, some poets are labled as romans, etc... who were not necessarily roman.
Also, AdilBaguirov makes the same mistakes that many many people make when regarding history. They look at a region during a period of time and they assume that everything coming from that period has to be of a certain something. For example, Turks belive that because Azerbaijani's are speaking a turkic language today, then they have always been Turks. Turks also believe that because Samarkhand, and Bukhara are now under Uzbek control, they those cities have always been turkish cities. ALso turks belive that because Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, etc... are now turk administered, that those lands have always been turkic lands. They also believe that because Iranic influences have been wiped out of their countries with the coming of the Pan Turk movements, that the Persian language and iranian culture has never affected them. Many turks actually believe that Norouz is a turkish holiday, and that Iranian culture has never affected them, even though the cultural language of the Ottoman Empire WAS persian.
The user AdilBaguirov is making the same mistake. The Seljuks merely conquered the land but they certainly did not have the man power nor the population to have inhabited all of it. Infact, the Turkification of Azeri's began sometime after the invasion of the seljuks, when many of them actually settled in what is today azerbaijan and turkey. Azeri's WERE iranic at the time of the seljuks and even until ottoman times the major language of the region was a western Iranian language. So do not make the mistake of labling a person just because he lived during a specific time under a certain group of people. Do not make the same mistakes that countless people have made, you must remember that modern day Uzbekistan, turkmenistan, azerbaijan, and parts of anatolia were majority IRANIC/INDO EUROPEAN before, during and for some centuries later.
AdilBaguirov states himself that Nezami was born in the Seljuk Empire and died in the Seljuk Empire, YET NEZAMI STILL USES THE NAME IRAN IN SOME OF THIS POEMS. now why would a Turk, born in a turkic empire, and dying in a turkic empire, every mention iran? why? doesnt that strike as unusual? the fact is that azeri's at the time were IRANIC, and were not yet Turkified. Nezami was not a turk because Azeri's at the time were still an IRANIAN people and not a turkified people. The fact of the matter is that all turks living west of central asia are actually more non turkic than turkic. most western turks are actually turkified. even turks today will admit that their ancestors were anatolians and NOT turks.Iranian Patriot 16:23, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
I think that referring to Armenian sources to prove that all Azerbaijani scientists are falsifiers is not a good idea. Firstly, because the source has an obvious bias. Secondly, if you look at your source, the author does the same falsifications he accuses other of doing. See an example:
Azeri: Gädimdä o shähärin ähalisi ermäni vä ya ashga bir millät imish.
Russian: Zhiteli togo goroda v drevnie vremena byli to li armiane, to li kakoi- to drugoi narod.
And the translation to English by the author: In ancient times it was populated by Armenians or other non- Muslims.
In fact, the original Azeri and Russian texts actually say that it was populated by Armenians or some other people. The word non-Muslim was not used. You can check Persian yourself: Va ahl an shahr dar qadim Armani va ya gheir-e mellat budeand. I’m sure it’s identical to Russian and Azeri versions.
As for Britannica references, I think we can chose the wording similar to the way they handled the issue. See the article from Britannica below:
Nezami or Nizami orig. Ilyas Yusuf Nizami Ganjawi born c. 1141, Ganja, Seljq empire died 1209, Ganja
Greatest romantic epic poet in Persian literature.
Little is known of his life, except that he spent it in what is now Azerbaijan. Only a handful of his qasidahs (odes) and ghazels have survived; his reputation rests on his great Khamseh (“The Quintuplet”), a group of five poems totaling 30,000 couplets, in which he brought a colloquial and realistic style to the epic. The fourth poem, The Seven Beauties, is considered his masterpiece.
I think we should also say that he was one of the greatest epic poets in Persian literature. Saying that he was a Persian poet may imply ethnicity, and it may lead to continuation of edit wars. I just try to suggest a constructive way out of situation to end this dispute. I think there are things both sides can agree on. Also note that Britannica mentions Nizami in the context of Azeri culture, while saying nothing of his ethnicity:
Azerbaijan. Cultural life
In the course of its long history, Azerbaijan has given the world a number of outstanding thinkers, poets, and scientists. Among the medieval scientists and philosophers, Abul Hasan Bakhmanyar (11th century), the author of numerous works on mathematics and philosophy, and Abul Hasan Shirvani (11th–12th centuries), the author of Astronomy, may be noted. The poet and philosopher Nezami, called Ganjavi after his place of birth, Ganja, was the author of Khamseh (“The Quintuplet”), composed of five romantic poems, including “The Treasure of Mysteries,” “Khosrow and Shirin,” and “Leyli and Mejnun.”
So saying that he had nothing to do with Azerbaijan is also not correct, Britannica connects him with both Persian literature and Azerbaijani culture. My point is that we can choose such a wording which can be acceptable for both sides and be factually accurate at the same time. So instead of arguing maybe it’s better to come up with suggestions of better wordings and phrases? Grandmaster 20:17, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Millat in the correct context
I don't see anything wrong with that article from the Armenian Professor. And BTW that book mentioned by the Armenianan article is not originally Azarbaijani, but it is Persian. The original Persian uses the word: Ghair-Mellat. Here is the actual quote:
اول شهری که در ولایت قاراباغ بنا شده شهر و قلعهء بردع است که سر رودخانه ترتر و در سه فرسخی رود کور واقع است و اهل آن شهر در قدیم ارمنی و یا غیر ملت بودند.
Before modern nationalism, there was three main Millats (nations) in the area (Christian, Muslim and Jews). The author who is a Muslim uses the term Ghair-Millat(non-Millat)(non-muslims) and this term has long usage. Indeed it has always referred to religion and sects. See Dr. Touraj Atabaki's excellent book on the usage of Millat in Islamic times. Indeed in Qajar Iran, a French Person would of the same Millat as an Armenian. So one must be familiar with lexicon of the Qajar usage of this term and again this shows that some of the non-Iranian scholars from the USSR are not well versed in Persian as a native who knows Persian literature is.
Also the Britannica articles says Azerbaijan has given scientists but it does not say those scientists belong to the culture of Oghuz speaking Turkic people. Remember in the other talk we had in another thread, you said even if ancient Azarbaijanis were Iranic, today they are Turks. Well Nizami ganjavi does not change his identity just because of the gradual and sometimes forceful Turkification of Azarbaijan that occured starting around his time. (A new discovery of an old manuscript by the name of Safineyeh Tabrizi from the Ilkhanid era still shows the people of Tabriz speaking Persian and Pahlavi dialects.) Just like the many ancient Greek scientists do not belong to the culture of modern Turkey even though genetic evidences shows Anatolians share more with modern Greeks than any other Turkic speaking group. And a Persian poet does not just mean the author used the Persian language or is ethnic Persian. It means he was involved in the Persian culture and expressed his philosophical, moral, cultural feelings in the language and is alive and known through the culture and language he contributed to. You see if Einstein wrote a book in English, he is an English writer of Jewish origin. As for Nizami we are 100% of Kurdish mother and I would even say his father was about 99% chance Kurdish (although he didn't leave us sufficient information to make 100% sure). But poet is much more important than a scientist when it comes to identity because a poet expresses cultural ideas and thus belongs to the culture that he developed and that nourished him. Nizami's major work are about the Sassanid dynasty and also the Irano-Islamic legend of Alexandar (which is found in large parts of Shahnameh as well). So there is a very important cultural element here that can not be overlooked and even if Nizamis other half was a Martian, he would still be a Persian pory in the cultural sense. Because Persian was his cultural language and legacy of the culture he left behind. Indeed culture is much more important than ethnicity in my opinion. For example Stalin was a Georgian, but he acted like a Russian. Or ataturk was originally Albanian/Macedonian but he became the father of Turks.
While I am at it, let me just add another point or two about one of the other false statements of Mr. Baguirov. Mr Baguirov said: Of course the fact that there are such great Turkic eposes as Dede Korkut and Oghuz Nameh, which are oral stories from at least 1300 ago, and oldest manuscript of which was written in 1053. And this claim is very big lie. There is only two manuscripts of dede Korkut work (compare it to say Shahnameh with 1000+ manuscripts). Dede-Qorqod contains about 150 Persian words and 300 Arabic words. It talks about Iranians (tats) with beards (Oghuz Turks at that time were mainly mongloid like Turkomens) doing Azzan while Iranians were not Islamified yet 1300 years ago. It talks about the land of Rum, while at that time it was not even at the hands of Muslims! Dede Korkut (the culture of Oghuz Turks) is totally from the Oghuz culture. . Indeed to show that is not as old as Mr. Baguirov and other ultra-nationalists claim, the word "istanbul" is found in this book. And I quote: The merchants set out on their long journey and traveled steadily for many days and nights. They came at last to the city of Istanbul.
The name Istanbul was chosen fairly recently (in 1453) for the former constantinope and assuming Dede Qoqod was written in 1453, then there is no way a manuscript exists that is 400 years older. As per the second part of the above sentence and Oguz-Nama, I haven't seen anything reliable from Mr. Baguirov about Oguz Nama. But there is a work by a certain Rashid al-Din Tabib of the Ilkhanid era in PERSIAN commonly also known as Oguz-Nama.. Author: Rashīd al-Dīn Tabīb, 1247?-1318 and the book is written in the Ilkhanid era and has been translated to Turkmen and other languages.
But Dede Korkut/Oguz Nama (the culture of Oghuz Turks) is totally different than the culture of Nizami/Ferdowsi. Dede Korkut is indeed the authentic true Oghuz-Turkic culture. . So is Kur-Oghlu which is mainly Turkic stories. See this interesting article (and note the site is not academic but yet I believe this article to be accurate) on how again Stalin manipulated history with regards to this folk story. Note the author makes another point which is well known and I have already made: At the time, the Turkish sultans didn't consider themselves to be Turks, but rather a cosmopolitan people, the Osmanli. In fact, they preferred to follow Persian and Arabic customs and offended the nomadic Turks by insulting their traditions and culture. The Osmanlis behaved not as the ethnic brothers of the nomadic Turks, but as their enemies and conquerors. This is what I mean by Persianization and this occured to the Ghaznavids as well as the latter Seljuqids. Also their empire usually was run by Iranian vazirs who did all the administration work and indeed some of them intermarried with the Seljuqids like the famous Nizam Al-Mulk. So the royal Seljuqids even if originally Turkic, mixed with the locals and started to upholad their custom. Another question comes up is why didn't western Oghuz Turkic have any significant literature from the begining of Islam, all the way down to the start of the Ottoman empires? The reason is that you need a complex culture and civilization to produce masterpieces and it does not come overnight. The complexity of the stories of Shahnama/Panj-Ganj relative to Dede Korkut is obvious and shows two different civilizations and culture. The fact is the Oghuz-Turkic culture was not established yet fully around the time of Seljuqids and it took several centuries after to produce Turkish literture. Much like the Scythians of the old days who were nomadic but in around 2000 started settlements and became the ancestors of very complex and cultured Iranian people: Soghdians and Chorasmians.
Also one can do a comparison between Nizamis work and Ferdowsi's work and see that they are from the same culture and why Nizami has expanded on some of the stories of Ferdowsi and the same themes. Culturally Nizami contributed to a civilization and that is Persian-Iranian culture and civilization. What is even the use of claiming him as a Turk, when he was not one and even if there was a 0% chance he was, he was assimilated fully and did not leave even one line of Turkish literature and did not contribute to their heritage.
I didn't even want to bring these issues up and I have a lot more sources to inject into this article about wide range of matters. Specially about Oghuz Turks and their behavior and culture and one will clearly see that Nizami did not have anything to do with this group. Still I don't want to do this, but unfortunately some users are trying to push this article in the wrong direction.
But since I believe in the greatness of Nizami, here is my proposal which stands already and is supported by Western Academics (Wilson, Clinton, Meysami, Talatoff, Rypka..) as well as many important USSR academics after the breakup of USSR: We say his mother was an ethnic Kurd. He was a Persian poet (definition of Persian poet does not mean ethnicity). Both these terms are used in Western literature. But say his heritage is shared by Kurds and the people of Afghanistan, Azerbaijan, Iran and Tajikistan. (Which is true). He was born in Ganja in the republic of Azerbaijan. (although Qom theory could never be discounted 100% and I could make 1001 arguments by interpolating verses and referring to scholars and etc.). He lived under the Seljuqs. Shireen was an Armenian princess (like the Encyclopedia Iranica and other Persian poets have also confirmed and she is known as Armenian in Persian/Kurdish cultures). All these facts should be mentioned. All these facts are already incorporated in the article.
But manipulations of these facts by some pan-Turkist nationalist is not welcomed and is aggression on Iranian heritage. Also today we do not judge ethnicity by 12th century standard and Nizami although most likely fully Iranian, is at least half Kurdish(Iranic) (unanimously agreed by all scholars).
In no way I am going to accept that he was half Oghuz Turkic, when the overwhelming evidence suggests otherwise and Western scholars have not mentioned this either and neither did any historians and biographers of the old ages that wrote about Nizami. Indeed the few Turks that contributed to Persian or Turkic literature and whose name has come up in biographies have been mentioned as Turks. Like Hasan Oghlu of Asfarain. The Nomadic Oghuz Turks that were encroaching on Anatolia and Caucasia were not cultured enough at that time to produce the Nizami Ganjavi.
Indeed if necessary I will against my own will, but for the sake of truth, bring many many quotes from Persian and Arabic poets and writers about the barbarism of Oghuz Turks at the time. So lets not call him an Oghuz Turk when scholars have not said such a thing in the West and outside of the Stalinstic era USSR (which no one can oppose Stalin). To say he was an Oghuz Turk (which modern Azarbaijanis from the republic identity themselves as), is historically inaccurate and is not supported by Western scholars and many scholars of the USSR. Also what I have noticed is that some plagarist might write a book that references some primary sources incorrectly and plagarize them and misquote them. And then another plagarist will refer to the primary source through the first plagarized source!, but will not mention the plagarized source. This method is used a lot by pan-turkist historians. Indeed with all the errors I have shown by Mr. Baguirov, one needs to be cautious and makes sure any statement he makes comes from the primary source and not a secondary source quoting the primary source.
I also btw have some research on the physical features of Turks and Oghuz Turks from Arabic/Persian literature and they are mongloid and it is clear to most scholars that Azarbaijan rebublic experienced a linguistic shift without much DNA variation. Kaputsins strong statement and Stalins manipulations have been already mentioned and I won't go through. Note I am not even pushing a nationalistic line and this is what Western scholars say. (Persian poet, Kurdish mother). If I wanted to be nationalistic, I would make 10001 reasons like Mr. Baguirov about his father being from Qom (since it is in some manuscripts as well as some history books) and he was Iranian.
So friends lets end this issue.
--Ali doostzadeh 23:04, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
I explained why the term persian is used, i wont repeat myself.
also, i think we can all agree that Nezami was not Turkic, that is simple. Now the question is whether to lable him persian or not. If it was up to me and it he west had not adopted the word persia when refering to iran, i would lable him as Iranian, but the fact is that we cannot do that without hurting irans history. Grandmaster, you seem very educated, and you should know that the west does not associate the term Iran with Irans history which goes under Persia. Nezami was Iranian, that is why he wrote about Iran in a time when, as the other user stated, Iran was under seljuk turkic rule. why would a non-Iranian mention Iran as the heart of the world, when technically iran did not exist as a nation at that time. Iranic peoples are the descendents of azeri's and at that time azeri's had not been turkified yet. and since the term Persia is used when refering to Iran in western languages, then the term Persian should be used to describe Nezami so as not to seperate him from Irans history.
by the way, the name Persia is derived from the greek word Persis, which the greeks used to call the second Iranian Empire (achaemenid Persia, 1st was the Medean Empire) after Cyrus the Great's tribe. but you probably already know this.Iranian Patriot 20:52, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
The poems "The Labors of Ferhad" and the full text of "The Seven Beauties"
...should be moved to Wikisource. I nominate Ali to do the job. ;) —Khoikhoi 05:24, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
- Here's the Persian Wikisource and here's the English one. —Khoikhoi 05:26, 29 May 2006 (UTC)