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Amendment request: Doncram

Initiated by Nyttend (talk) at 00:22, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Case affected

Doncram arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

1. Principle 5
2. Finding 1.1
3. Remedy 2.1

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

• Nyttend (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (initiator)
• Carptrash (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Doncram (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Dudemanfellabra (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

• Carptrash (diff of notification of this thread on Username2's talk page)
• Doncram (diff of notification of this thread on Username3's talk page)
• Dudemanfellabra (diff of notification of this thread on Username4's talk page)

Information about amendment request

• Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Doncram#General_editor_probation. Not requesting any changes to principle 5 or finding 1.1; they're simply the relevant ones, and I wasn't clear if I needed to mention them, since the preloaded template mentioned all three things.
• Requesting something along the lines of "Doncram is indefinitely banned from commenting on contributors"

Statement by Nyttend

Since the case was closed, we've had at least two AE requests (Archive132 and Archive135) related to Doncram's pattern of commenting on contributors, not on content; in both cases, AE admins decided that Doncram's actions hadn't risen to the level of "repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any normal editorial process or any expected standards of behavior and decorum". As a result, Doncram continues this pattern with edits such as this one: I think it is rotten that some editors feel that they can go around bashing me. Dudemanfellabra, obviously, was being rude, and it was reasonable for Carptrash to sense that, and to be offended. It is even more rude, in my opinion, for Dudemanfellabra to just clarify that he meant to bash me, instead. He meant to offend me, and to trumpet his disrespect to everyone else. Much of the case centered around Doncram's comments on contributors, not content, and if I understood rightly, remedy 2.1 was included to prohibit such actions. Is this what we permit people to say when they've been placed on a general civility probation? If the remedy were created with this kind of edits in mind, Arbcom needs to reword it in such a way that the AE admins will enforce Arbcom's intentions. If Arbcom were simply meaning to solve the general WP:NPA situation and didn't have this specifically in mind, they need to add this prohibition because their current remedies aren't working. Nyttend (talk) 00:22, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps my original statement wasn't clear — the only reason I mentioned Carptrash and Dudemanfellabra is that Doncram's mentioned both of them in the diff to which I linked, and they're the only ones (besides Doncram and me) to have participated in the thread in question. Nyttend (talk) 00:27, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Doncram

(Temporary reply: I will edit this to add some diffs) I myself wondered about opening a clarification question here, specifically about the tenor of remarks by editor Dudemanfellabra in several recent episodes, and about how I should respond. Nyttend links to my response to Dudemanfellabra in current discussion at wt:NRHP. Dudemanfellabra had said something negative directed at me but not completely clearly; another editor took offense; Dudemanfellabra explicitly clarified that he was targeting me; the other editor commented and I responded similarly that I have feelings too. I in fact do not like to be targeted and to be repeatedly bashed publicly.

As I then stated, I honestly don't know how to deal with an editor repeatedly bashing at me. I think it is wrong. I think we can in general have a guideline that editors should comment about edits and not editors, but what if one editor is following and repeatedly commenting in an antagonistic, personal way. I have been wondering if I should open a Request For Comment about Dudemanfellabra, about several recent comments.

I have chosen to respond in different ways: i simply deleted Dudemanfellabra's negative comments and all of the associated discussion section at my own Talk page in one recent case, where another editor was making complaint about good edits that I had made (e.g. this good edit) because I had not done something further on the associated Talk pages, and I was trying to respond positively enough, and Dudemanfellabra chimed in with a negative comment, and after one more comment by the other editor I deleted that all with mild "okay, chat over, thanks" edit summary.

In this post Dudemanfellabra calls my work "half-a**ed"; in the next edit I deleted that with edit summary "Delete swearing post, unwelcome". I am honestly offended at this tone and the words Dudemanfellabra is using.

Showing at wt:NRHP is another Dudemanfellabra comment calling my work out negatively, with 6 links to recent articles or drafts by me, with complaint about "just a lazy longquote from the nomination form as you're so inclined to do." I disagree completely about my work being "lazy" and I disagree completely about appropriate use of good quotes from NRHP nomination documents explaining why places are NRHP-listed. The discussion was not part of any policy or guideline discussion on quotes, it seems to me as just a side jab.

At wt:NRHP just now, in further discussion where Dudemanfellabra targets me, I thought I could not delete Dudemanfellabra's comment although I do feel it amounts to a personal attack--he even emphasizes that he is meaning to attack me personally--and I chose to respond as I did, by saying basically I did not like that. I think it is fair to observe that at least Dudemanfellabra seems to feel entitled to jab me at will, showing disrespect repeatedly. I request that Dudemanfellabra be advised to adhere to standards of civility, and to stop the repeated jabs.

The arbitration case may have not gone far enough to address a culture of negativity and repeated insulting that has grown over many years at WikiProject NRHP and in associated NRHP articles and personal Talk pages. It helped a lot that an interaction ban was put into place, eliminating one source of contention and negativity. The arbitration settlement is not a solution if other editors step up with contention and negativity, however. I rather think what's needed is for NRHP editors, at WikiProject NRHP, to speak up and say they don't want the negativity and the jabs. I was inviting that; what we have here is different, taking the "solution" process away from where it should be taken care of, IMHO. --doncram 00:37, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Kumioko

This submission is baseless and the comment that Doncram made, that Nyttend linked too, isn't even derogatory. I could list a dozen edits made by 3 editors alone that are far worse than that. He was simply responding too comments that were left by another editor and stated he had feelings too. I also want to add that the AE complaints that he is referring too were also thrown out for good reason. Editors shouldn't be expected to sit silently after repeated abuse. As I stated in a couple other places I think the Arbcom ban on him creating NRHP articles is a waste of Articles for Creations time. They created a special process just for Doncram because they recognize that its a waste of their time but they are forced into the situation by Arbcom. Kumioko (talk) 00:37, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

• @Orlady, I feel I must point out that your conduct in the Doncram case was less than steller. Let alone for an admin. I don't deny that Doncram has made some harsh comments but its generally after someone has been unnecessarily harsh or insulting to him. Every link that has been provided shows that. Someone left him a nasty note, frequently uncivil and he responded in a way as to make it obvious he didn't appreciate it. I don't deny that. What I do have a problem with is him being singled out, without anyone saying anything to the other editors. I also have a very low opinion of the fact that no one seems to care and the prevailing desire here seems to be to ban him from the project. Kumioko (talk) 17:53, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

• @Devils Advocate, I agree completely. This personal crusade by Nyttend against Doncram is far beyond an admin performing their role. He's flat out harassing and hounding Doncram and frankly it appears to me that he is goading Doncram into doing something he can block him for. Utterly unacceptable behavior for anyone, admin or otherwise. Kumioko (talk) 05:00, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

• @Sandstein, your stating essentially that it is ok for other editors to insult Doncram but its not ok for him to comment back to them. Because the whole reason Doncram made those comments is because they were making derogatory comments about him. So, if you are going to punish a user for returning comments to an editor who is insulting them then you also need to be willing to deal with the other editor and tell them to be civil as well, which you seem utterly unwilling to do. These sanctions do nothing but allow a user to be targeted by editors who do not like them or their edits and we all know that there is always someone here in Misplaced Pages that is not going to like what we do. If you are going to punish Doncram for his comment which to me seem petty for this comment, then someone also needs to tell the other users to stop constantly harassing and insulting him with uncivil comments. Kumioko (talk) 11:09, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

• @Thryduulf, there isn't a need to "present them", they are clearly evident in the discussion of the links provided against Doncram. The submitters just picked and choosed Doncrams comments because they supported their case. They didn't bother to present the whole picture because frankly, it would show that there is a lot more to the story than what they want to be known. Anyone can see it if they bothered to look instead of just assuming that the linkn provided is the end of the story which seems to be the case here. I'm not saying Doncram is innocent but when people are constantly harassing him over petty crap and then expect him to just sit there and take it I have a huge problem with that. Also, I couldn't get anyone to take action at ANI over an admin who was violating policy against a clear consensus why would I invest my time in an RFC when multiple admins seem hell bent on getting Doncram banned from the project. I am one editor who a lot of folks don't even like because I am vocal when they do something stupid and screw up. Particularly when they are admins and abuse their rights and status to get their way. If you want evidence go do some due diligence and read the discussions in context. Same goes for those admins and Arbs commenting on here. If your willing to block a user under a sanction for not sitting in a corner and letting others abuse them and not doing or saying anything to those other editors then you should quite being arbs and admins because you don't deserve the position or the responsibility. Kumioko (talk) 14:43, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Carptrash

I believe that I unknowingly wandered into a combat zone and took a shot that was aimed at someone else. There is obviously history at play here and I don't understand it well enough to offer anything useful. I was invited to comment, I have never been to one of these events before. Now I have and I won't use up more of your energy. Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 14:19, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Orlady

As a party to the Arbcom case (but not to the talk-page discussion that precipitated this request), I agree with the request for amendment. In my view, Doncram's long-standing habit of commenting on the person rather than the subject matter -- and of interpreting comments on his content as personal attacks motivated by personal vendettas against him -- was one of the main issues underlying the Arbcom case. I thought that warnings -- rather than sanctions -- under the existing probation were appropriate in the two Arbitration Enforcement instances cited because I hoped that Doncram would heed the warnings. However, that's not working. I think this amendment is needed (1) in view of the recent evidence that he is reverting to the kind of behavior that got us to Arbcom in the first place and (2) because administrators at AE were reluctant to act because the Arbcom remedies did not explicitly refer to this kind of behavior as being subject to sanctions. --Orlady (talk) 17:09, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

@Kumioko: If you have serious concerns about my conduct (in the Arbcom case or elsewhere), please provide (ideally somewhere other than this page) diffs illustrating the behavior that you object to. I'm tired of innuendo about my behavior that's based on the theory that "where there's smoke, there must be fire" (i.e., the assumption that Doncram -- and a couple of other users I won't name here -- must have had a valid basis for all those horrible things they said about me). --Orlady (talk) 18:50, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

I am pleased to see that Doncram has removed a couple of comments that were sources of concern in this discussion. --Orlady (talk) 16:50, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Dudemanfellabra

I don't really have anything to add either. I believe my evaluation of Doncram's contributions is accurate. Although his contribution history is a long one, anyone willing to take the time to look over everything will see a minimal improvement at best after the arbitration, as far as substantive contributions (i.e. article writing). No one is asking him to create only like featured articles or anything, but as has been said many times before, if he just put a little more time and effort into everything he does to make it more presentable and less quick-fix-y, the number of complaints/attacks about/on him would drop off drastically.--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 17:18, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Statement by The Devil's Advocate

Again? Nyttend needs to leave Doncram alone. It is as simple as that. There is nothing in the diff Nyttend provides that points to any issue unless we are saying that Doncram shouldn't be allowed to object to what other people say about him. He has been dogging Doncram for some time, even using his admin tools to further his interests in their feud, and it is time for it to stop. What Arbs should consider is an amendment enacting an interaction ban between Nyttend and Doncram.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 20:50, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

@Sandstein, did you see the comment Dudeman made? While one could argue that uncivil remarks such as "your trademark quick-fix, let-someone-else-clean-up-my-mess style" are better off ignored, it is quite obscene to suggest that objecting to such remarks is worthy of sanction. I would think the purpose of the probation is to keep Doncram from over-reacting or attacking without prior provocation, not to give anyone he might be in a dispute with a chance to get their licks in with impunity.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 07:28, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Mathsci

There does not seem to be any reason for an amendment to the Doncram case. During that case, fault was found with Doncram. The outcome of the case was unambiguous and very little has changed. Continued attempts to suggest otherwise and to cast the blame on others, either here or at WP:AE, are unhelpful, not supported by any evidence and will not alter the outcome of the case.

In the last report at WP:AE, the uninvolved administrators Sandstein, Gatoclass and EdJohnston commented. Doncram was given a logged warning not to personalise discussions. A glance at the talk page of WikiProject NRHP shows that he has taken no notice of that advice. The hyperbolic personalised language—exaggerated claims of being hounded and victimised—that was criticized in the arbitration case is being repeated. It is only the editors at the receiving end of his comments that have changed. That confirms, if confirmation were needed, that it was not other parties in the arbcom case that were at fault. Doncram's comments are unconstructive, create a toxic editing atmosphere and stifle discussion. During the case, Doncram avoided a site ban and a topic ban, partly because parties like Orlady and Nyttend discouraged any measures like that.

The arbitration committee can indicate informally to administrators at WP:AE that the findings concerning Doncram were serious and that he is still on probation. The outcome of the case means that Doncram is not in the situation of a regular editor. If he continues to repeat the conduct criticized in the final decision and for which he has subsequently received a logged warning, then reports at WP:AE of future violations should result in more than just further warnings. Mathsci (talk) 03:36, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

The findings of the arbitration committee were written as guidance both for the parties and for uninvolved administrators at WP:AE. They included problems with article editing (2.2) and with responses during discussions (2.1). Exactly the same problems have arisen with new NRHP editors. Those who disagreed with the outcome during the case were given ample opportunity to comment at the time. Recycling those objections now, either here or at WP:AE, is not helpful. "Evidence" of problems with other parties was presented during the case and did not convince arbitrators. Similar claims are being made now. Without supporting diffs, however, assertions of that kind are unhelpful and, as Thryduulf mentions, potentially harmful. Mathsci (talk) 15:24, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Sandstein

In reply to AGK: I was one of the administrators who processed the AE requests Nyttend refers to (1 and 2). After re-reading the discussions, it appears to me that while my administrator colleagues and I agreed that Doncram's conduct was problematic, we were of the view that it did not rise to the level of "repeatedly or seriously", as envisaged in the relevant sanction, that would require action beyond an explicit warning. At least on my part, what may also have been relevant was an impression that the conduct by some of the editors engaged in disputes with Doncram appeared similarly confrontative, such that sanctioning Doncram only might have created the appearance of one-sidedness. In view of the most recent edit cited here by Nyttend, it does now appear to me, prima facie, that Doncram's practice of commenting about contributors rather than content, in a derogatory manner ("stop Dudemanfellabra from polluting ") meets the requirement of repeated misconduct that would warrant sanctions, if this were an enforcement request.  Sandstein  05:38, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Several users have criticized that the sanction only covers misconduct by Doncram, not by others. As indicated above, I agree in principle that this is not optimal. In my view, the Arbitration Committee should try to craft conduct restrictions in such a way that all users involved in a (future) dispute can be held to the same standard of conduct - for example, by way of discretionary sanctions or other topic-level restrictions. However, once the case is closed and we are at WP:AE, we must apply the sanctions as they are written, not as we may wish them to be written, even if that means that we must sanction users who are subject to individualized restrictions (for what I must assume are good reasons) for conduct we are not authorized to sanction in others. If that turns out to be a problem, interested users may petition the Committee, through this process, to modify the sanction. But in this case, I do not think that the possibility of Doncram being provoked into disruptive behavior warrants amending the sanction. In my view, everyone is responsible for their own conduct, without regard to what others may have done. That means everyone is also responsible for not letting themselves be provoked. Including not by comments such as "your trademark quick-fix, let-someone-else-clean-up-my-mess style": While I agree that such comments are uncollegial and confrontative and ought to be avoided, they do focus on a reasonably specific perceived content problem, rather than on Doncram as a person, which is why I would argue they fall short of being sanctionable, at least under our current (regrettably loose, in my view) civility standards.  Sandstein  15:21, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Statement by EdJohnston

@AGK: I participated in the May 28 AE. I agree with Sandstein that if more reports are made to AE of a similar nature we should consider taking some admin action. Blocking is something to consider, but short blocks seem unlikely to affect the long-term hostilities. In June 2012, User:Doncram returned to editing after a six-month block without evidence of any change. Read his talk page for the dates immediately following his return. See the tone of the Round Barn talk thread of June 2012. Doncram was picking up just where he left off, both in the positive sense (content) and the negative sense (interpersonal) . See the comment about 'hateful behavior':

If you are a person reading this who has in the past engaged in what a reasonable person can view as hateful behavior, please reconsider your interest here, and please go away, please leave me alone.

The six month block was the last community action taken, and if the problem continues, one could see the argument for a 12-month block. Another option might be more restrictions on Doncram. That couldn't be done at AE, but a new request for amendment could be made to the committee. Short blocks for incivility in a case like this one seem like they wouldn't stop the endless recurrence of the problem. EdJohnston (talk) 15:45, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Thryduulf

@Kumioko, The Devil's Advocate and others

If you feel that one or more users are harrassing and/or baiting Doncram, then you need to present evidence (diffs) of this behaviour in a suitable location, probably an RfC about their conduct. Being on the receiving end of incivility does not excuse anyone from acting incivilly themselves, but if you feel that he is being baited and that this should reduce any punishment then you need to comment to this effect at AE when his incivility is brought there.

Accusations of baiting, without presenting evidence of such, are just as harmful as actual baiting is (c.f. Orlady's "smoke without fire" comment). Thryduulf (talk) 14:28, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Gatoclass

I'm inclined to agree that there is no need for an amendment to the case and that I see no reason why a complaint of this type couldn't be handled at WP:AE. Gatoclass (talk) 16:01, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Statement by {yet another user}

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

• The thing here is that Doncram could already be placed under the restriction you suggest under the terms of his existing probation if, at WP:AE, the evidence were there to justify or if an individual administrator felt strongly enough to do so. Am I misreading this or is it being suggested that the sanction be modified in order to encourage others to sanction them and/or make it easier for them to do so?  Roger Davies 05:36, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
• We need to hear from the administrators who declined to sanction Doncram after the Arbitration Enforcement (AE) requests in question. Nyttend, please notify the AE administrators of this amendment request, and then tell us when you have done so. We need to know why the administrators determined they should not sanction Doncram. AGK 13:12, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
• Agree with AGK. NW (Talk) 03:18, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

• @Ed: AE actually has quite a lot of flexibility here. R2.1 was written as a "you can try to do anything short of a site ban" remedy. I originally proposed that remedy because it is clear that while Doncram has a lot to offer the community, normal sanctioning procedure has not worked. That's not holding him to a different standard; that's saying that procedural restrictions on obtaining consensus for novel sanctions to address the same problematic behavior as another hypothetical editor can be dropped. With that said, I don't think that there is much that the Committee could or should do in this instance, and I think it's up to the broader community to address the matter in the manner that they see best. NW (Talk) 16:38, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

• In light of Sandstein's statement, I don't think it's necessary for us to intervene here. T. Canens (talk) 10:00, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

• @Ed: Remedy 2.1 explicitly allows for the imposition of "any other sanction that the administrator deems appropriate". AE is fully empowered to impose additional restrictions to address the issues, and to enforce them with blocks if necessary. T. Canens (talk) 05:30, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

• I fully support Sandstein's comments. There has traditionally been difficulty/discomfort in imposing conduct sanctions on a user who is unnecessarily provoked, and there may be room to consider a provision somewhere that users found to have unnecessarily provoked a user under conduct sanctions should share in the imposed sanction. Dudemanfellabra's remark was uncollegiate, and it may be appropriate for AE admins to consider giving him a warning. Meanwhile, Doncram should have better sense at this stage than to respond in the manner that he did. However, AE can handle this, and Sandstein appears to be on top of it. SilkTork 15:59, 18 June 2013 (UTC)