Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Tony1 (talk | contribs) at 08:49, 8 July 2013 (Obstructive behaviour: it will go to ANI if you persist). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

• WT:FAC

Archives

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Image/source check requests

• Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Greed (film)/archive2 -- source spotcheck pls. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 08:42, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
• Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Sholay/archive1 -- source review and spotcheck pls. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 07:23, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Dup link tool

Is there a duplicate links tool? Does it know to ignore duplication between captions, infoboxes or references and the main text?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:17, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

I see the sidebar link now. I forgot I had it.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:19, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Jainism/archive4

I have removed the above nomination from the list, as it has been deleted. I am noting it here in case anyone believes that it should be restored and formally archived. No one but the nominator (who requested that the page be deleted) edited the nomination. J Milburn (talk) 18:10, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Tks for that. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:23, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Most FACs for a single article?

Does anyone know what the record is? (Successful or unsuccessful) —Designate (talk) 22:55, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't know what the record is but Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Juwan Howard/archive5 passed not so long ago. I have seen some 7s (don't recall if they passed), but I don't know what the highest passing number is.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 23:18, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

A quick search reveals Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/May Revolution/archive7 (successful) and Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Ralph Bakshi/archive9 / Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Real Madrid C.F./archive9 / Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/S&M (song)/archive9 (unsuccessful). None of the latter three have an "archive10". I cannot find an "archive8" or "archive9" apart from these three. Bencherlite 23:36, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Priyanka Chopra/archive2

Delegates requested to check any issues related to canvassing. I don't doubt that most of, if not all, of these support !votes were made without any undue influence, but I am concerned over the possibility of a tainted process. If the delegates consider my concerns to be a bit too conservative, I will strike my oppose !vote. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 16:39, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

I have commented there, but I can't speak for Ian who might have a different opinion. Graham Colm (talk) 20:08, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Depth of reviews

I happened to read the TFA tonight and right away, several statements that looked "off" caught my eye; an examination of the sources revealed issues. I'm concerned that these sorts of issues should be picked up at FAC (Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Hiram Wesley Evans/archive1). (Thank you Crisco for the quick corrections, but my concern is that a more thorough review for accurate representation of sources should be undertaken.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:13, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

• Have checked three sources in that article, found a couple issues (one was a pagination issue) but generally accurate. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:00, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
  • Kudos on you for getting on this so quickly and further reviewing the sources !! Could someone fix one last thing while it's still on the mainpage? There are synonyms for "damage"; can we not use it twice in one sentence in the TFA blurb? I would also like to suggest that three supports has historically been a minimum for promotion, it is not a given, and random spot checks for prose and accurate representation of sources can be helpful, particularly in an environment of declining reviewers. In this particular case, I was alarmed to find on the mainpage statements that stood out like sore thumbs as items that needed to be checked vs. the source. Thanks again Crisco for resolving this so quickly, regards, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:04, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
    • Sorry I missed your post here (looks like it came at a time I was sleeping). — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:47, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Can anyone please comment?

It's been two months since I nominated this article. It currently has three supports and one oppose; who has failed to revisit after s/he requested a c/e which was performed in a timely matter. I would really like to see this nomination end very soon since it already has a consensus of passing, but it needs more supports/comments from the community. Thanks, jona 00:31, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Post your concerns directly on Graham Colm's talk page. PumpkinSky talk 00:36, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

I did and s/he did not replied. Best, jona 00:50, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

I have replied on the FAC page. Graham Colm (talk) 06:13, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

"Who is in charge of the clattering train?" (ack. E. J. Milliken)

Further information: Misplaced Pages:Featured articles/2012 RfC on FA leadership

Can someone advise me of who is in charge of featured articles these days? The system is working well on a day-to-day basis; Ian and Graham are doing sterling service on the FAC, as is Bencherlite at TFA and, I am sure, other delegates at FAR. But they all have specified responsibilities, and cannot be expected to take on work beyond the range of their duties. However, the nominal FA director has shown no involvement or interest in the project for the past five months. I have a specific suggestion, not within the delegates' remit, which could require executive action, the sort of thing that a couple of years ago I would routinely have taken up with Raul. I see no point now in posting my query on his talk; he is not responding to any postings, not even to the gift of a pie. So what would be my most productive course of action? Brianboulton (talk) 19:08, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

I would be interested in your suggestion. Perhaps here might be a good place to start? Graham Colm (talk) 20:02, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

• I agree with Graham. I think this is the place to float suggestions, and personally I don't see why consensus can't be reached here - before the train runs away, so to speak. Victoria (talk) 20:16, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

• OK, my general suggestion is that there should be a concerted drive to extend the current free JSTOR access available at present to selected editors. Further, as a general policy aim, we should seek to acquire access through other paywalls, such as Cambridge Journals and Oxford Journals and should begin investigating this as soon as possible. The latter suggestion may not be tenable at present, but we should have an aim and a strategy. With regard to JSTOR, I have a few specific concerns:

• The pilot scheme whereby 100 editors were given free access to the JSTOR archive expires in November 2013. Are any steps in hand to extend this? If not, it's important that there should be some speedy action in this respect. November is only four months away.
• Has any monitoring taken place to determine the extent to which this facility has been used by the editors with free access? Do we have any "sleepers" sitting on wasted accounts?
• Do we know whether any of the editors who signed up here below the 100-place mark have been given access?

• Raul654 is nominally the WP community's JSTOR contact. Whatever the future of the Featured Article Director title, someone needs to replace him in this specific role, with authority to speak on behalf of the community in any negotiations that may be necessary. Brianboulton (talk) 23:26, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, it seems that I am alone in worrying that the complimentary JSTOR access might be withdrawn in November and that there is no obvious leadership in position to renegotiate this arrangement. I'm not interested in another marathon argument about who or what should succeed Raul as FA director, but rather in who is going to take responsibility for this specific task. Brianboulton (talk) 15:37, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Sorry Brian, didn't notice your earlier comment. Yes, I am worried because I'm a slow editor, real life gets in the way at times, and I recently thought I should either go on a mass downloading spree or something, because I'll be unhappy when we lose access to JSTOR. I think that a year isn't long enough to gauge how effective it's been - bringing an article to FA takes a fair bit of time (at least for me), so I can only point to a few from this year, but all have relied on Jstor. Victoria (talk) 15:57, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

I thought Stephen Walling at the WMF had actually dealt with JSTOR. He's currently no doubt stressed-out dealing with the introduction of the Visual Editor, but might be the best person to ask. Johnbod (talk) 16:42, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi Brian, as John says, it was Steven Walling at the WMF who was dealing with JSTOR. My understanding at the time this was set up is that the first 100 would have access for one year, then the next 100 would. It would be great if that could be renegotiated so that lots of us, not only 100, will have continued access, but given how long the first negotiations took, trying to extend the subscriptions could be lengthy too. I'd therefore suggest that you contact Steven asap with your concerns, although he's likely to be tied up with the Visual Editor at the moment. SlimVirgin 19:38, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping. Today is a holiday in the U.S. but I can answer all of Brian's questions tonight or tomorrow. (I am still in touch with our contact at JSTOR from time to time.) Steven Walling (WMF) • talk 19:46, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

I've been doing a bit of reading lately on the federal judiciary in the US, so that may have influenced my opinions here. I see the role of the FA Director in two lights:

1. He or she assures the smooth functioning of the overall FA process by keeping the subprocesses (FAC, FAR, TFA) staffed with the appropriate decision makers.
2. Rarely, he or she adjudicates any controversies that rise above the level of decision making by the delegates at those subprocesses. This could involve closing FACs/FARs where the active delegates have to recuse, etc.

To keep those roles impartial, I've felt that the FA Director needed some level of independence as well as a level of accountability to the community. Serving in the role "during good behavior" and as long as the person was "willing and able" gave that independence. That the delegates' appointments were insulated from a direct popular vote also gave them the independence needed to truly decide whether or not an article merited promotion or demotion without the potential political fallout at election time. That isn't to say that the community couldn't replace the director, when circumstances warranted, or petition to have a delegate removed as needed.

At this time, I think circumstances warrant some action. I propose that the greater FA community proceed to elect a new FA Director. Interested candidates for the job should have a reasonable period to come forward with a nomination statement, and then the community should have a reasonable period to vote. Thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Imzadi1979 (talk • contribs) 21:05, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

• What about naming Graham and Ian co-directors? They seem to have been doing all the work for a while. Any thoughts about setting up an RFC to do that? Looie496 (talk) 21:07, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Nothing against that, but remember that the FA director also oversees FAR and TFA, so I don't know that this would be the best solution organizationally. --Rschen7754 23:37, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
    • I have to ask this one simple question. Why is Raul654 still listed as the FA Director when he has not shown up in 5 months? He should be removed immediately, whether or not a suitable replacement is currently available. Not to do so makes the whole concept of even having a FA Director look like a complete farce. For the time being, the current delegates can continue to go on doing what they are doing and be called delegates. Whether there is one person called a "director" at the moment is insignificant. Raul654 should be removed immediately without any further delay. Rreagan007 (talk) 22:55, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Comment

Sorry Brian for not responding earlier. A few of the other delegates and I have communicated on the JSTOR subject and I don't think we can add much to what's already been written above. I think JSTOR and the FA Director position were always separate issues, i.e. two different hats that Raul's worn, but since the question of Raul's absence as FA Director has been brought up again, let me offer a few thoughts on that at least -- my colleagues can jump in any time...

I'm in no hurry either to put someone new into the FA Director's role, or to eliminate it. Given Raul's great service to Featured Content over the years, I'd like to see him retain the title even if only in an honorary sense. The delegates were always supposed to take on all the responsibilities of the FAC Director bar appointing further delegates, and making the final decision if there was any issue about whether an article might or might not appear as TFA. Bencherlite has demonstrated that in Raul's absence he’s prepared to take – in consultation with the community -- the final decision re. controversial TFAs, so I consider that a non-issue now. I think there are also enough Featured Content delegates in total for them to consult and allocate responsibilities between themselves if there's risks to a job being performed. For instance Bencherlite is effectively running TFA single-handledly at the moment, but I understand now that Nikkimaria is prepared to make herself available to provide backup at TFA in addition to her FAR duties, which should mitigate that risk. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:06, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

I endorse Ian's approach and his analysis of the limited role of the FA Director as it had become over time (i.e. to appoint the delegates to do the day-to-day work and to be the person with the final say on TFAs). I agree that the community is able to discuss the issue of controversial TFAs in a way that enables me (as the only active TFA person at present) to close such decisions based on consensus e.g. Misplaced Pages:Today's featured article/requests/History of Gibraltar. I also agree that there are sufficient delegates available to deal with matters if there are problems at another branch of FA-land. I also agree that there is no bar as I see it to Raul retaining his title as FA Director as an honorary or emeritus position to recognise the work that he did here over many years, with no need to cast around for a successor. I welcome Nikkimaria's offer to assist at TFA, and would also note in this context that Dabomb87 has been in touch to say that he no longer feels able to be a TFA delegate given his current absence from Misplaced Pages. Bencherlite 12:38, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm happy to defer to the current delegates. I agree that a change of Raul's title to "FA Director Emeritus" would be acceptable, and would help to avoid any false impressions. - Dank (push to talk) 13:28, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Giving him an honorary title of "Director Emeritus" is fine, but any actual power he has should be removed in case he decides to show up a year or 2 from now and tries to retake control. The current delegates can still be called "delegates" as they are now delegates of the community rather than delegates of the FA director. Rreagan007 (talk) 16:29, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

My only concern is if new delegates need to be appointed at some point - what will happen then? --Rschen7754 07:29, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

In the past, new delegates have been appointed by Raul after consultation with current and previous delegates. As I've said above, I think the current pool of delegates should be able to cope with the tasks that need doing, one way or another, for the time being. Should a new delegate be required (as opposed to juggling responsibilities between existing delegates) then I'd hope that, in Raul's absence, the delegate pool could be entrusted to consult and appoint one. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 07:53, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

It's fair to say that the situation concerning Raul is unusual (and I wish him the best in the case that he's involuntarily inactive on Misplaced Pages). However, the current arrangements are clearly working well so there seems no need to appoint a new boss of the featured streams of work at present. Nick-D (talk) 08:48, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Okay, sounds good. --Rschen7754 08:51, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

←There's lots of issues here, which seem to be working themselves out above, but I've just gone ahead and edited {{FAC-instructions}} and removed Raul from the header altogether. He clearly has no role anymore there, so there's no need to enshrine it (at least not in the instructions--a history of FA would be an interesting wiki-history if there was ever one, but that's neither here nor there.) In his absence the delegates have done an admirable job, so I think the matter of adding or replacing is best done between them and then presenting candidates to the FAC community as needed. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 12:12, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

The person who has no role here is you. Hawkeye7 (talk) 12:21, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I fully support Ian's proposal and later comments. Graham Colm (talk) 12:19, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

David Fuchs, I reverted your change. The discussion is young, and the delegates are competent to install changes once consensus is defined. I will weigh in here eventually, agree with the delegate statements generally, and presume that those making intemperate and ungrateful statements about Raul/Mark are unaware of the full history of a) the FA process that he built, and b) the events leading to his absence. For now, I support the title of "Director Emeritus" for Raul654, and believe the processes to be in competent hands with the current delegates. As time allows (hopefully), I will lay out some things that the community could be doing to better help the delegates complete tasks that were done under Raul's leadership. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:26, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I re-added the change, as there's no reason to keep Raul in the instructions when he isn't around to respond to inquiries, and we don't need to wait for the delegate to make every change here (that's nothing against them personally—I like all of them). Should he return, I'd be happy to add him back myself. As for the circumstances surrounding Raul's disappearance, you are correct in saying that many of us don't know.... but we can't take into consideration what we don't know, so we have to go on what we do know, which is that he hasn't edited since February. Ed  17:33, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I am also in agreement with Ian's comments. I've also been inactive recently, especially on FAC, but I hope to get a little more active again now. Ucucha (talk) 13:28, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I would also support the director emeritus position for Raul. Since things are running well at present perhaps we should leave things as they are but have the delegates feel more free to propose changes in the processes to the community. And also to help out as needed in each others bailiwicks. I do not think there is any need to fill the position of director. When Raul took the position of director nine years ago the process was much smaller than it is now. Raul handled policy, appointments and the occasional recusal; those things can be done by the community and by other delegates.Wehwalt (talk) 14:11, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

My main concern is that we never reach a situation where delegates are beholden to nominators. We don't want a popularity contest, or the flip side of the coin: delegate behaviour based on fear of voter backlash. That is what has worked so well for years in the undemocratic semi-monarchical arrangement. Tony (talk) 14:17, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

That is exactly what we don't want, FA is not special as so many think. By that logic arbs should be arbs for life. PumpkinSky talk 14:31, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Raul always considered FA land his personal fiefdom and himself Director for Life. These ideas are anathema to the very idea of wiki. FA land should be run more like a project. Raul hasn't done much in over a year and his last edit was in mid Feb 2013 saying he'd post comments in a few days. He never did. He's clearly abdicated and FA tasks have been moving along just fine. The jobs are much larger than one person can reasonably handle. So I think the different tasks should stay pretty much as is with new people replacing the inactive ones on a consensus basis. For example, TFAR lists three people and Bencherlite is the only one that is active. Two more should be recruited. Nikki and Gerda have both helped them and they immediately come to mind. The FA Director title should change to FA Coordinator. Many projects have coordinators emeritus and Raul being an FA coordinator emeritus is fine but that does not mean he should be able to return and usurp his old role again. The various "delegates" should have their title changed to ""XXX Coordinator". They are not delegates, certainly not any more. The FA Coordinator selection should be done by consensus in the usual wiki ways, not left to a same group as some have suggested. Raul did a lot for FA land on wiki but he never should have done it in the manner he did, it was very unwiki, such as his comment about "This is FA related, so I can do whatever I want" (paraphrased). PumpkinSky talk 14:30, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Paraphrased indeed, and {{cn}} on your first sentence. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:36, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, to get back to Brian's original point about the expiration of JSTOR and the lack of anyone with any authority to advocate for resources that are behind a pay wall for content contributors. It's a serious concern. User:Ocaasi has done fine work in setting up access to one service and has established WP:The Misplaced Pages Library. This work should be encouraged. I'm not proposing him for featured article director I don't think anyone needs to fill that job since we've done just fine without one for quite some time. But whatever support we can throw behind him would be good.Wehwalt (talk) 17:54, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree that we might take all the power from Raul and give him an honorary title of "Director Emeritus" or whatever. Since I started nominating articles for FAC, I have never seen Raul anywhere and the process has worked just fine, thanks mostly to Graham's and Ian's endless efforts, which I appreciate a lot. This means that we don't need Raul anymore, and as such, we should just move on and leave him, and the position he held, in the past. I'm pretty confident that the current delegates are more than prepared to handle FAC just like they are doing. — ΛΧΣ 01:24, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

We already went through an RFC six months ago, which confirmed Raul as FAC director. Hawkeye7 (talk) 01:37, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

And he's been directing what for the last year or so? Nothing. If anything he should be removed for not doing his job. I agree with Hac21, they system is working fine without him and we don't need to fill it, as long as we break up the tasks as they are now.PumpkinSky talk 02:26, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Hawkeye, I believe you mean a year and a half. And the community, whatever the merits, if any, of that RfC, was confirming a somewhat active editor, right now, we are discussing an editor who has not done so in five months. Abandoning his post. Don't they shoot you for that, in wartime?--Wehwalt (talk) 03:20, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Pumpkin: "That is exactly what we don't want"—which bit of my post were you referring to? Tony (talk) 02:08, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm saying that having one person on a project with so much power is anathema to wiki as is having a "Director for Life". Changing coordinators works fine on other projects and I see no reason it wouldn't here, but again, we don't need one overall director -- that has been proven by Raul not performing as the FA director for the last year or so. I suspect you won't agree, but you asked for clarification, so I clarified. PumpkinSky talk 02:26, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Where's Jimmy Wales when you need him? Hawkeye7 (talk) 02:52, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Jimmy gave up his God King status years ago. PumpkinSky talk 03:01, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Does anyone know if Raul is even still alive? Rreagan007 (talk) 02:50, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Edit warring

• Hi everyone, I've protected Template:FAC-instructions for three days owing to edit warring spurring from this discussion. Can we all work towards a consensus here first, please? I really don't want to have to block anyone here (which edit warring through full protection will likely warrant). — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:46, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

  Apologies on the 3RR, I realized I hit it only after I hit save. Silly thing, not paying attention. :-) In any case, any editing there has been superseded by the discussions below. Ed  14:03, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

  No worries. I think I see a consensus being built below *crosses fingers*. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:53, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

  • Wouldn't such edit warring lead to an automatic Arbitration Committee case? (as it would be wheel warring). Nick-D (talk) 02:55, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
    • Per WW, "usually". We can avoid it, in theory. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:57, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
      • Now that it's been full protected, only admins can edit war over it. Personally, I feel that keeping Raul's name in there is just denying reality. PumpkinSky talk 03:03, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
        • Nothing has been heard from Raul in months. He hasn't been actively involved in the FAC process in years. Nobody knows if he's ever coming back. I've also never seen anything definitely showing how he came to be the FA Director in the first place. Did he just appoint himself to the position for life? That can't be right. I understand people have a lot of respect for the things he has done in the past, but it's time to move on. Rreagan007 (talk) 03:11, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
          • Raul, to his credit, did much to set up the Featured Article process in 2004. There was discussion then, and he was given the position, which did not contain an expiration date. By the time I joined the process in 2008, Raul was a distant figure who rarely participated in discussions and never in reviewing, and sometimes closed FAC when the then-delegates had conflicts of interests. And he also selected the TFA until he appointed delegates for that, somewhat later (2011?)--Wehwalt (talk) 03:41, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
            • And what does Raul do now as FA Director? Rreagan007 (talk) 04:25, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Just to add my voice to the discussion: it's clear to me that Raul should not be listed as director on the page, regardless of what he has done in the past, due to his lack of active involvement. I also share concerns about the "director for life" status, if that's what it is. J Milburn (talk) 08:06, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

For the record: those who are inquiring about the history of the FA process can find an accurate accounting of that history, and a broad community endorsement of the description of the FA director position at Misplaced Pages:Featured articles/2012 RfC on FA leadership. It is incorrect to say there is no job description, incorrect to say Raul/Mark was inactive in 2008, and I do hope folks will read before continuing to opine. Best regards to all, and please do remember that what you say here is likely to be replayed in The Signpost; surely in this place where hopefully some of Misplaced Pages's finest writers convene we will find editors conducting themselves in a way that will bring pride and respect to all who value the bronze star. Admins edit-warring when discussion has barely started? When did Bold Revert Discuss turn into Bold Revert and I'm An Admin So I Can Revert Again ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:41, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

No, it most likely won't be 'repeated' in the Signpost—most likely scenario, we'd include include a short in brief. As for admins, that's clearly directed at me, and I've already noted elsewhere that I didn't realize I was at three until after I hit the save button. As I've told you before: surprisingly, people make mistakes. Ed  04:18, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

RFC on governance of the FA forums

Please consider joining the feedback request service. An editor has requested comments from other editors for this discussion. This page has been added to the following list: WikiProjects and collaborations When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the list. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.

Dear colleagues, current circumstances suggest that it's time for a structural adjustment in the governance of the three FA forums (FAC, FAR, and TFA). Two problematic issues inter alia have been discussed on this page: first, Raul, who has been FA director since 2004, has not edited since 11 February; and second, the director's role is not well defined and has involved little or no activity for some years.

The proposal, with minimal change in mind, is that we make three adjustments: (a) no director; (b) current "delegates" renamed as "coordinators", since their roles would no longer be delegated; and (c) the coordinators in committee—after consulting with the FA community—determine any further changes and fill vacancies.

The last is a pragmatic compromise to avoid the popularity contest that would result from voting for coordinators, while enabling the community to express its views on any proposed changes or appointments. It acknowledges that we already invest considerable trust in the FA coordinators (currently "delegates"), a trust that in my observation they have never abused.

This is the formal proposal:

1. FA director: That there no longer be a position of FA director,
2. Emeritus FA director: That the community record its profound gratitude to Raul for his creation of and service to the FA project over the past decade, and that he be asked to accept a new, honorary position of Emeritus FA Director, in which he might offer high-level advice in relation to the FA forums.
3. FAC coordinators. That the current three FAC delegates be renamed FAC coordinators and continue in their roles without reference to a director.
4. FAR coordinators. That the current two FAR coordinators continue in their roles.
5. TFA coordinator. That the only active TFA delegate, Bencherlite, be renamed TFA coordinator and continue in his role without reference to a director.
6. Changes and vacancies. That the FAC, FAR, and TFA coordinators in committee—after consulting with the FA community—determine any further changes and fill vacancies.

FAR is already run by coordinators, without reference to a director.
Dabomb has indicated to Bencherlite that he is no longer available for TFA duties, and Gimmetrow (Gimmetoo) has not edited since January 2013. It has been noted above that FAR coordinator Nikkimaria has agreed to serve as a backup TFA delegate/coordinator.

I am about to advertise this RFC at WP:VP, WP:CENT, and the talk pages of the other featured-content forums. I look forward to input from the community. Tony (talk) 10:53, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Support

Limit of one paragraph, maximum 50 words. No replies here; please use the discussion section below.

• Tony (talk) 10:53, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• Weak support – Open to changing my mind. I have my concerns about proposal 6. I trust the community to be able to deal with the appointment of new coordinators without it becoming a popularity contest. I believe that Raul only ever governed by consent anyway. – Shudde 11:10, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• This is clearly a step in the right direction. Ed  14:13, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support—although I would prefer that the proposal address the possibility of appeals from the decisions of the new coordinators, or the potential for total recusal of the coordinators pool at an FA subprocess. Imzadi 1979 → 15:06, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support This looks like a great way forward, very sensible proposals. Mark Arsten (talk) 15:29, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support, for now, with the exception of #2. We don't need more funny hats and we don't need a Byzantine system of honorary court titles on this wiki. I'm sure Raul doesn't need it either. If and when he returns, and wishes to get involved in the process again, the proposed system is quite sufficient to get him reenabled in any way people feel appropriate – e.g. as another coordinator. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:37, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support except give the emeritus director the same role/privileges as the other directors. Nergaal (talk) 17:13, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support Although it has several things that may need to be polished, but they can be polished later. This is way much better than our current situation here. — ΛΧΣ 17:26, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support I read it as the advice offered does not have to be taken. --Rschen7754 19:24, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support Seems sensible. Hchc2009 (talk) 19:27, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support. This is a needed change. Everyking (talk) 22:57, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support, although I suggest that, should Raul not return to active editing, there be a process to remove any emeritus title he holds. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:30, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support Seems like a step in the right direction. -- Khazar2 (talk) 04:00, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Oppose

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Strong Oppose See alternate below. PumpkinSky talk 12:32, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Oppose There is no reason why the community should not be able to handle the selection of coordinators in these areas. It does so quite well in other areas. Number six is unfortunately though very well-meaning an invitation for cliquery to eventually take over. No unlimited powers, no unlimited terms, no depriving the community of an effective voice in the process.Wehwalt (talk)|

Oppose #2Sorry but that sounds plain ridiculous. Raul is another member of the community, and not the king of FA. 16:38, 7 July 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Retrolord (talk • contribs)

Strong Oppose all (including below) recognizing Tony's best intentions for the FA process, and I will lay out my reasoning in alternate sections as I have time later. In the meantime, there are numerous either outright false or misleading statements throughout the discussions on this page, and I suggest that all have a good read of the RFC held in the not-so-distant past which clearly lays out the history of FAC, the description of the FA director, as well as broad community support for the director position. Misplaced Pages:Featured articles/2012 RfC on FA leadership gives an accurate history of the FA process, errors on this page notwithstanding, and explains why a director is needed. "Coordinators" do not, cannot, and will not be able to uphold what has always made FAC work, which is the ability of delegates to ignore pile-on, buddy , rubber-stamp, "vote"-style supports and who are empowered instead to allow one well-placed oppose to prevent the promotion of poor articles to featured status. (FAC is not a vote-- diminishing delegates to "coordinator"-style vote counters will diminish the process.) The position of FA director, in that sense, is distinct from, for example, a MilHist coordinator. This proposal will, in sum, eliminate that ability and diminish the FA process to another vote, with quality of articles diminished. I will initiate a discussion as I have time, implore newcomers to read the old and very thorough RFC, ask those assuming that I have not emailed Raul to please use some common sense (I am not *that* useless), am dismayed to see that admins have edit warred over something well within the competence of the delegates to handle, and am reminded that some behavior here has amply demonstrated exactly why a director is needed. I implore the delegates to convene and nominate a new director from their ranks and put that person forward for community endorsement. That is all I have time for now, other than to remind folks here that we have in the past demonstrated the ability to put forward well considered RFCs that have broadly endorsed the position of FA director, time and time again. For the sake of what value remains in the bronze star, could we all please show some respect and restraint? And could we please frame RFCs correctly? The history and duties and job description are well laid out in a very broadly endorsed and fairly recent RFC; I encourage caution and restraint in tossing out something that has been so broadly endorsed as working in the past, merely because those who brought FA to a successful place were ungratefully chased off of Misplaced Pages by those who sought to eliminate the position. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:29, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Oppose Per SandyGeorgia. There is no reason for this. There was an RFC only a few months back that re-endorsed Raul as FA director, and his semi-retired status was not overlooked. I am not sure who the "FA community" referred to are but they appear to be "editors who have never written an Featured article, and are not involved in the process". Presumably it was added to prevent the delegates from simply scrapping it. Let's do this for them. Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:53, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose Of the six positions, I support #1. No director has been needed for almost a year, as far as I can see, we don't need one in the future. - I don't know why new people to help the FA processes (however these people are called, if at all) would be "chosen" by those already active, - it seems not in community spirit, therefore I oppose #6. I am willing to help as far as I am able, without any title, as I did before. It would just be nice to get a thank-you (not this) if you help, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:07, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Neutral

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5 out of 6: Which I guess is "neutral." Cannot abide the idea of replacing the current system with something apt to become exactly the same thing. Will comment further on the thread below Montanabw 19:58, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Neutral. Would like to see Sandy's proposal further developed. I don't think it's appropriate for us to retain someone who's de facto abdicated as an official part of the process. Can see arguments both for retaining the role of director and for distributing remaining powers among delegates. Choess (talk) 22:41, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

• The one deficiency that I see in the proposal is the potential need of a "supervisor" for the FA process to handle a) appeals from the decision of one of the subprocess coordinators or b) decisions in a subprocess when all of the coordinators are recused. It would be unfair to ask a co-equal coordinator to override the decision of another co-equal coordinator in the event of a disagreement over the closure of a nomination at FAC, FAR or TFA. Likewise, it isn't far-fetched to imagine the situation when all coordinators would end up recused from a nomination. At least with the directorship, there was the nominal avenue of appeal, and the backup of someone able to step in at a subprocess on the rare occasion when the delegates were recused or unavailable. Note: I do not want such appeals sent to the community, as such an action, would in my opinion, undermine the independent and impartial role established for the leadership in the overall FA process. Imzadi 1979 → 15:12, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

• Correct. And we have had such situations in the past (those who don't know history ... ) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:44, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

• That is precisely why we are here; the god of FAR abicated, leaving a vacuum. So long as there is an odd number of coordinators, I see no worries with a coordinator model. That said, another solution would be a term of service for leadership, sort of like US Judges on the lower-level courts (where no one person is designated "chief justice"), with the coordinators rotating "senior" status on an annual basis so no one person becomes entrenched. Montanabw 20:01, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

• I have no idea if I should Support or be Neutral on this. Is there a difference between being a coordinator and a delegate? GamerPro64 20:32, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Delegate means you were appointed by and working for someone. Coordinator is more in line with the consensus model. PumpkinSky talk 20:47, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
    • Huh. Never knew that. Guess I have to change my status at Featured Topics then. GamerPro64 20:50, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

• So, in the interest of correcting inaccuracies above:

1. FA coordinators will, of course, have the same power as the delegates have now. The argument given above—that the coordinators at the Military history Project don't have the ability to ignore supports or opposes in its A-class reviews—is wrong. The only difference for FA coordinators vs. delegates is in the name.
2. The previous RfC was one year and five months ago. That's far longer than "a few months back", and it is clearly enough time to allow consensus to change; I'm one of those who have switched sides.
3. The need for a 'supervisor' is really one that everyone should decide for themselves, but appealing to one or both of the other coordinators/delegates is clearly an option, and one that has worked well at the Military history Project and the WikiCup. Ed  22:44, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Coordinators should not have the absolute power to set policy, but certainly they should have discretion, as stated, to close nominations to ignore improper votes. I think that's fundamental to being asked to determine consensusWehwalt (talk) 23:15, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm a little nervous about the "votes" formulation. As I understand it, when an article comes to FAC, the FA director or his delegate is responsible for determining whether or not it meets FA standards. Since that's a herculean task, and so as to be less skewed by personal bias, the delegate solicits input from members of the community. But it isn't a "vote" in the sense that if six people support, one person opposes and provides a counterexample that the delegate agrees is valid, the article won't be promoted, numbers notwithstanding. "We will continue refining until all valid objections are satisfied" is, after all, closer to the proper use of "consensus" than a majority vote. (I suspect we're in vehement agreement on the general thrust here—that for the purposes of this proposal, the coordinators should collectively enjoy the powers of the director to determine consensus—but I wanted to clarify.) Choess (talk) 23:44, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

• I'm confused by Hawkeye7's comment; as Ed pointed out, the big, high-participation RfC on the subject was seventeen months ago, not "a few months". Furthermore, when I look over it, I see comments like this: "I would prefer if Raul got more involved in the day-to-day operations of the FA process," "a discussion on what should happen when the current Director is no longer able or willing to continue would be beneficial," "As long as he continues to discharge his functions, she should not have to spend time on campaigning to keep the job," "I hope that well before he leaves Raul will try to set up some succession system," "I would like to see Raul...in a more visible role," "I would like to see a yearly (Dispatches-style?) report back from the Director and delegates in each area on how each process is going". I do not see this as an endorsement of "semi-retirement", and indeed, many people explicitly endorsed the idea that Raul's role should be re-examined by an RfC if issues with his performance arose—as we're doing now. Choess (talk) 02:45, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

And yet the proposal above would institutionalize the same sort of appointment process that left us with Raul, whose enthusiasm curve for the project could easily be mapped. While we are blessed with good coordinators now, the same might not always be true. I do not think it's a good idea to brook a repetition of watching Raul (not the person who used that name, but the "character". Undoubtedly the man who used the name "Raul654" to edit Misplaced Pages is doing good work someplace) slowly becoming inert, and why a proposal would be brought which would expose the community to a possible repetition, is beyond me..--Wehwalt (talk) 03:12, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, that was what, an eight-year trajectory from "someone needs to take charge of this" to phoning it in? This seems like overplanning for events of that frequency. Moreover, replacing the delegates seems to have run along without too much drama—and if all the responsibility devolved on them, they'd have a good incentive to encourage inactive delegates to resign (more work for them). More later when I have time. Choess (talk) 05:10, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Not really... Raul was enshrined by an op-ended process in 2003. This process would instead have the coordinators/delegates propose a respected editor to the FA community to confirm. I'm leaning more towards elections, but I also fully suppose this step, which is far better than what we have now. Ed  06:00, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I see Tony's proposal as, say, making the "consent" stage of the American Senate's "advise and consent" purely optional. Which would reduce it to irrelevance.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:13, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Comment I see this as an attempt to forewarn (and get on side) the incumbent delegates by a partisan who has made it clear he does not support any sort of effective role for the community (that is, one that the community can make stick) in the featured article areas, to set the rules by which his own proposal shall be considered, and, to make sure that his proposal gets the favorable position at the top of the queue without giving warning so that no one else gets in first. He, no administrator and no neutral, has event taken the liberty of editing and moving others' comments for violating the rules which he, a partisan, has set. One cannot be both a proposer and coordinate the RfC, and there has been no agreement on who should This is an attempt to get one's way by being first in line (by willful concealment of intent). Unfair way of doing business.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:38, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Far from the conspiracy theory you're looking for, it was a courtesy to warn each delegate, and as I explained to Bencher in a subsequent post you seem to have missed, I was concerned about the potential understaffing of TFA before writing the proposal. As it turned out, this wasn't at issue in the proposal, and I should have read the dialogue between Bencher and Ian Rose further up this page. As far as getting the current delegates "on side", the RFC doesn't need that, and I don't care what they think or how they vote: the RFC seeks consensus from the community, and the view of delegates is relevant only insofar as they are part of the community. I hope this clears up any misunderstanding. There's no need to shout in the edit-summary; if this "comment" section blows out, I'm going to move it into the discussion thread below. Tony (talk) 08:04, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Conspiracy theory? I simply state what's fair for one is fair for all. You gave privileged advance warning to a favored few. Now, had you simply posted your intent, with courtesy notices on the delegates' pages, I could have had no objections. As it stands, though, it smacks of gaming. As do threats of moving comments, which you lack any privilege to do by all the conventional rules. At least last time, the RfC coordinator assured us he was neutral. You are a proponent and should not move the comments of those who do not agree with you. And if they are removed by another, well, we know Tony sends emails.--Wehwalt (talk) 08:19, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Alternate RFC on governance of the FA forums

Tony1's proposal just above is close to what I'd propose myself, but I can not abide by item six. I simply feel that the FA processes should not be treated differently that other parts of the encyclopedia, that the community is perfectly capable of handling coordinator rotations. The FA coordinators should not be a self-governing group. The whole idea is anathema to our basic principles. I also have a minor quibble with item 2, and would change the last clause about "high level" advice. If Raul returns, he can chime in just like any other editor. Therefore I submit the following alternate.

This is the formal proposal:

1. Incorporate the RFC proposal about by Tony1 with two exceptions: The phrase "in which he might offer high-level advice in relation to the FA forums" is removed from item 2, and item 6 is changed to read "shall be handled by community consensus".

Support

Limit of one paragraph, maximum 50 words. No replies here; please use the discussion section below.

• Support PumpkinSky talk 12:31, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support. This is better than the first proposal, but I support either one. Everyking (talk) 22:58, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Oppose

Limit of one paragraph, maximum 50 words. No replies here; please use the discussion section below.

• Oppose both suggested amendments to the original RFC. This is too radical; my concern is to fix an issue without capsizing the boat. Forcing popular democracy would remove the discipline that has made FAC what it is, and the ability of delegates/coordinators to distance themselves from the whims of nominators and reviewers. I'd rather be conservative for the moment. It's safer. Tony (talk) 12:43, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose The proposal does not address the powers of the coordinators nor does it provide for the case which we've just experienced of an incumbent who loses interest in the project. And have these RFC's been advertised? that was part of the problem last time. There was an objection to outsiders as I recall.Wehwalt (talk)|
• Oppose—proposal doesn't ensure the independence and impartiality needed of the leadership to make the tough decisions needed of the respective positions. Imzadi 1979 → 15:04, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose this is not politics, and never should be about politics. --Rschen7754 19:30, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose Per WP:NOTDEMOCRACY and WP:NOTCOMPULSORY Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:03, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose, for the same reasons I gave in the section above. The FA processes do need a director, as this discussion has demonstrated. I also urge participants here to discuss before launching RFCs (and also to discuss before edit warring on FA pages that benefit from stability). We have launched effective and well-worded RFCs before; perhaps we can do it again. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:12, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. The role of coordinator or delegate or whatever inherently involves making decisions that will make people unhappy. Our consensus processes for that are terrible; we only accept RfA because we can't agree on a replacement, and ArbCom elections are not that much better behaved. The abstract principle of community consensus is not sufficient reason to introduce RfA-style dysfunction into a fairly well-running process. Choess (talk) 21:57, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose (sorry), pretty much per Choess. I think there is little to gain and alot to lose. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:22, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Question. Can someone give me a real no joke explanation of why FA land is so different (I've never heard one) from RFA and Arbcom? Based on this logic we should elect arbs for life and scrap the whole "wiki is a consensus collaborative environment" meme. PumpkinSky talk 22:53, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
    • FA works. RFA and ArbCom are totally broken. Hawkeye7 (talk) 08:10, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Neutral

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Discussion

Can we merge the two proposals to one before we start voting? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:37, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

If someone wants to do that and Tony does not object, it's okay with me. I didn't want to just start changing his work. I'll ping him.PumpkinSky talk 12:39, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

What if everyone started an "alternate RFC" because they objected to one or two elements of the existing RFC? The proper place for this is in the original discussion section. Tony (talk) 13:03, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Why should only the first person in the door get to make a proposal then?--Wehwalt (talk) 13:12, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

I am eager to see your proposal on this, Wehwalt. PumpkinSky talk 13:29, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

My thought is that the community should select coordinators, but these people would not then be eligible for another term until a period of time out of office had passed. I was thinking along the lines of two-year terms and six months then out of office. I would also make it clear that the community sets policy, and that the delegates have discretion in how they judge consensus. If they think a vote is abusive, they can disregard it.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:58, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Notices at Misplaced Pages:Village_pump_(policy)#RFCs_on_FA_changes, Wikipedia_talk:Today's_featured_article/requests, Wikipedia_talk:Featured_article_review#RFCs_on_FA_changes.PumpkinSky talk 13:34, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

It seems silly to start two or more RfCs at once; it'll doom them all, IMHO. Ed  14:13, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Item six is simply not acceptable. That's as unwiki as it gets. We've already been putting up with the FA-fiefdom for 11 years. Enough already. Let's vote on each line item or all variations at once. This issue needs to be settled after so many years of stagnation. One RFC option at a time will take forever.PumpkinSky talk 14:50, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

I tend to agree with Ed. I worry that voter fatigue could become an issue if people have too many places to vote. Mark Arsten (talk) 15:31, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Pumpkin, the safeguard I've proposed is to build into governance the seeking of the community's view on filling vacancies and other managerial changes (even though it's ultimately up to the committee of coordinators, which is in effect how it's been for some time). Tony (talk) 15:38, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

No Tony, what you propose is for what is left of Raul's fiefdom to maintain its powerbase and the illusion that FA is special and exempt from wiki's standard policies. PumpkinSky talk 16:42, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

I am not aware of any delegate who has been appointed by anyone other then Raul. Raul has said in the past that he consulted with delegates, but I seem to remember some delegates posting that they had not heard from Raul on the matter, so I don't know.Wehwalt (talk) 23:21, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Comment noting above, where I suggested, another solution would be a term of service for leadership, allowing the tiebreaker role of a "boss" but not the risk of entrenchment and rot, with the coordinators rotating "senior" status on an annual basis so no one person get too fond of their magic wand. Montanabw 20:05, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Where did the commitee get their power from? The community. I don't see how WP:FA reached the point where the commitee of coords was somehow above the rest of the community. ★★RetroLord★★ 16:46, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Because Raul founded the FA "project" back about 2004, always considered it his personal fiefdom where he could do whatever he wanted, was "director" (read "dictator") for life, most of the community always kowtowed to him, and the result is what you see.PumpkinSky talk 17:02, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

It's not like its a bad thing. Hawkeye7 (talk) 08:24, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

• Yea - I support some reform here no doubt. Now I admit that I'm saying this through gritted teeth - but someone should probably - just out of courtesy - email Raul too. It's only fair since it does affect him. Maybe Sandy could as I know they were familiar with each other on wiki. I would love to be pinged once this goes live and official in the "RfC" and WP:CENT sort of way. — Ched :  ?  14:03, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Well ... ping. ;-) Ed  14:18, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• @Imzadi 1979 by that logic arbs should be arbs for life, so where's the difference? There is none. PumpkinSky talk 17:07, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• reply to PumpkinSky's question above in the "Oppose" section. I can give two reasons why this situation is different from RfA and ArbCom. The first is, essentially, the reason I gave in my opinion: the RfA and ArbCom election processes are fairly dysfunctional; the problems with FA seem much more limited in scope and generally manageable. I admit I'm rather bemused that, after expressing your great dissatisfaction with ArbCom failing to take your case against DocJames, among other things, you're eager to recapitulate the community consensus-building process that produced that ArbCom here at FA. Second, I disagree with your implied premise that unless we subject all delegates or directors to individual examination, they are appointed "for life" or don't have "community consensus". The RfC a year and a half ago didn't confirm life tenure for Raul; what it confirmed was that the community did not see the wisdom of removing him at that time, nor of establishing an election system. Now, we're holding another ad hoc RfC, and while we may disagree on the details of how to do it, I'd say there's a decent consensus developing that the FA process should be headed by people who are actually here and editing and that someone or something should replace him. In short, the 2012 RfC established a consensus (which seems to be holding up in this RfC) that FA staffing should be dealt with on an ad hoc basis, rather than by a regular system of elections or RfWhatevers. Such a consensus does not exist for RfA or ArbCom. Choess (talk) 02:21, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages requests for comment