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view · edit Frequently asked questions (see also: Misplaced Pages:Technical FAQ) Click "" next to each point to see more details. If something looks wrong, purge the server's cache, then bypass your browser's cache. This tends to solve most issues, including improper display of images, user-preferences not loading, and old versions of pages being shown. No, we will not use JavaScript to set focus on the search box. This would interfere with usability, accessibility, keyboard navigation and standard forms. See task 3864. There is an accesskey property on it (default to accesskey="f" in English). Logged-in users can enable the "Focus the cursor in the search bar on loading the Main Page" gadget in their preferences. No, we will not add a spell-checker, or spell-checking bot. You can use a web browser such as Firefox, which has a spell checker. If you have problems making your fancy signature work, check Help:How to fix your signature. If you changed to another skin and cannot change back, use this link. Alternatively, you can press Tab until the "Save" button is highlighted, and press Enter. Using Mozilla Firefox also seems to solve the problem. If an image thumbnail is not showing, try purging its image description page. If the image is from Wikimedia Commons, you might have to purge there too. If it doesn't work, try again before doing anything else. Some ad blockers, proxies, or firewalls block URLs containing /ad/ or ending in common executable suffixes. This can cause some images or articles to not appear. For server or network status, please see Wikimedia Status. If you cannot reach Misplaced Pages services, see Reporting a connectivity issue.

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VisualEditor going live

Hey all; the VisualEditor will be going live for all accounts in the next few minutes/hours. Wikimarkup editing will still be available, if you don't want to use it - if you encounter bugs, or have any questions, drop them on the feedback page. Thanks :). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 20:11, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

If we get questions about this at OTRS should we just move them to the tech-issues queue or do you want them forwarded somewhere else? Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ukexpat (talk • contribs) 20:18, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Works for me; I'll monitor it as we go :). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 20:20, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Hi Okeyes, I've asked at least three times, with no answers, regarding which browsers you're supporting. Since I'm still unable to turn it on in preferences, please post somewhere which browsers will see and which will not - I assume some of us will not. That will cut down potential confusion, imo. Also, the watchlist notice is incredibly small - might want to make that more prominent since not everyone watches the relevant pages. Thanks. Victoria (talk) 20:23, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi Victoria! The FAQ page at mediawiki.org now has that answer, and I'll tell my team to look into the watchlist notice thing. Thanks for your feedback, --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 20:31, 1 July 2013 (UTC) PS - actually I did not realize it is written here as well :)

Victoria, what browser are you using? Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 20:35, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Okeyes, I've asked here 3 times - the threads have all been archived, the questions ignored. I know, having spoken with Apple, that a subset of users w/ some versions of OSX will not be supported. The browser support is not listed at the page mentioned above. Personally, I don't care, I'll continue to edit as I have, but saying it's available to all logged in users is incorrect. Victoria (talk) 20:41, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Afaik: Right now, it supports FF 11+, Iceweasel 10+, Chrome ?16+, and Safari 6+, regards --JEissfeldt (WMF) (talk) 20:43, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi Victoria, I have at least a user on it.wp happily editing from OSX using Chrome. Perhaps you might want to try as well? Thanks for your reminder about browsers, it is important that that section is clear and complete about it. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 20:46, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that's right. With a Macbook Pro users have to go to Chrome. They leapfrogged Safari to Snowleopard, loaded an older version to the machines when Lion was released. Go figure. But that's how it is. Victoria (talk) 20:54, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Here's a question... I was approached regarding developing a gadget to disable VE buttons. Does that mean that the option to en/disable the VE in Preferences (Editing tab) is going to disappear? — Edokter (talk) — 20:58, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Edokter - when we switch to this being the parallel interface - and the one that you get when you hit the "edit" button - yes, that option will go away. If you'd like to disable the thing - we really wish you wouldn't, because both VE & source editors are easily accessible from the interface (both from the tabs and the section edit links), and some features will be really useful to experienced editors as well, like the dialogues to edit complex templates and references. Also, your help in identifying bugs and training new users will be invaluable. That said, if you really can't stand the extra tab, a community member has written a user script that you can use to completely hide VisualEditor from your interface. You can do so by adding importScript('User:Matma Rex/VE killer.js'); to your common.js file. But how about giving it a whirl first? Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 21:07, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

No, no, no! You cant be serious! The option is already there – why remove it? If (and only if) I decide to check some compatibility issues I'll activate VE from my preferences. I neither want to see it otherwise nor do I want to load it unnecessarily in background. Misplaced Pages is a damn slow JavaScript monster by now. Don't you see what you're doing by forcing more an more JavaScript feature on editors? --Patrick87 (talk) 21:21, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I've coded that up already, because I strongly believe the option should be kept as well. Matma Rex talk 21:17, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Matma Rex, but hiding the VE with the help of CSS or JavaScript is not decreasing loading times. It's only curing the symptoms while a simple checkbox in user setting could cure the disease. --Patrick87 (talk) 21:21, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I realize, using that script is the worst of both worlds. I have no idea why VE team insists on killing the preference when we even can still use the old editing toolbar. Matma Rex talk 21:24, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

How do I turn it off, entirely, so I don't have to choose between normally editing and VE editing? I don't see anything in Preferences. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:48, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

How the hell do I get rid of it? Catfish Jim and the soapdish 21:52, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

The .js script given above is not working for me. I really would like to turn this off and retain the option of trying it out when I'm ready for it, not when the developers are ready for it. Please restore the turn off switch to Preferences as soon as possible. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:56, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

• This goes to the question of which browsers support too. If push comes to shove and people don't want, or do want, it's important to know which browser to upgrade to or downgrade to - though that's quite slightly insane, imo. The option to choose should remain. I've had the option for weeks and it's been worthless, hasn't done a thing when I've enabled (and I'm currently a very active editor, know where to post so think of me a cockroach - see one when there are many) - so it would be useful to have the option for those of us who are trying to figure a., if we can use the UI, and 2., whether or not we want it. If you're to emulate google, consider that they always give an option to try a new feature and to return to the older feature. I still have the old compose for instance, though it was introduced quite a long time ago. Victoria (talk) 21:57, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
• One bright point in all this: I don't have to worry about people vandalising music charts or discographies any more: no one will be able to figure out how to edit them. —Kww(talk) 21:58, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Hi all, apologies for not being able to answer everything right now: we're going to explain in a bit more detail but we're a bit overwhelmed at the moment since the real launch happened minutes ago. I will draw the team's attention to this whole discussion, and hopefully they can provide a more complete answer. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 21:59, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
    • There are no plans to install or restore a turn off switch to Preferences. I realize that it is a disconcerting change - I am not particularly change-friendly myself, but I'm happy to say that in the time I've been interacting with it it has pleasantly surprised me, even back when the bugs were far more substantial. :) Of course, everyone has the option of using the old interface (and sometimes - such as when working on copyright investigations - it's the only thing that works for me), but it's there if you change your mind. --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 22:03, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
      • • Then you seriously need to reconsider those plans immediately. This is not a question about whether the editor is good or bad, it's a question of choice. I've managed to make many thousands of edits with the old editor and I'm quite conversant with it. Your forcing me to make an extra choice each and every time I edit is taking up my time, not yours, and, quote frankly, the choise not to keep the turn-off switch in place is downright rude. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:19, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
          • The .js script above is also not working for me, I still have two edit tabs, and the section edit tabs are far over to the left and butt ugly as a result. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:27, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
      • That's strange. I've gone and played with a number of music-related articles and haven't found one yet where it actually worked. Try editing the tables in Akon discography, for example, and watch the tables melt into a pile of misaligned html text being treated as field entries. Try to add or remove a chart from a simple chart list like Bus Stop (song)#Charts. I don't know where to start writing the bugzilla reports because I can't find a working article to compare the broken behaviour to.—Kww(talk) 22:08, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
        • • Hi Kww, just try and describe what happens in the feedback page, don't worry about the rest. Thanks. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 22:14, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
        • Your problem may be browser specific. I don't see any obvious errors or malformations when trying to edit the tables in Akon discography. Or maybe you need to explain what action causes the error more precisely? Dragons flight (talk) 22:15, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
        • When I tried editing the table it worked for me...just very slowly. It went slowly when I reverted myself, too, so it may just be the article. :) --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 22:17, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
          • • Are you saying that when you click http://en.wikipedia.org/Akon_discography?veaction=edit and scroll through the tables, you don't see snippets of HTML style tags being presented as table data? Check out "Singles->as lead artist" and tell me what album "Oh Africa" is from.—Kww(talk) 22:20, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
              • I see what you're talking about now, Kww. I'll file a bug. You'll be able to track it on the feedback page. Keegan (WMF) (talk) 22:28, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
    • @Victoriaearle:: As answered to you above, VE currently definitely runs on FF 11+, Iceweasel 10+, Chrome 16+, and Safari 6+. This information is also in the FAQ on mediawiki. Keegan (WMF) (talk) 22:10, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

• @Keegan: - thank you, I read it. What I am trying to say, perhaps unelegantly, is that this has been a rather developer-centric, Silicon Valley-centric rollout without taking into consideration the idiosyncrasies of this particular community of users. I know that I can't use b/c you don't support my browser (said many times now) but somewhere, someplace, would be very useful for you all to post prominently which browsers are supported so as to cut down some of the questions. That's all I meant and will leave you to it now. Victoria (talk) 22:37, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

• No offence, but I find the refusal to provide an off switch to be dissapointing and even a bit arrogant. We like the "old" editing interface and have zero desire to use VisualEditor. And, in my case, that's even assuming it would even work at all in Firefox 5.0. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:18, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
  • • And totally inexplicable, considering that this reaction was entirely predictable. It's also distracting what the developers want, which is feedback, which I'll be more than happy to give when I decide to test the editor. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:25, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
    • I completely agree, an opt-out feature is nearly a necessity for a feature of this magnitude. For a lot of the work I do, the VE is incredibly cumbersome and simply does not work, not to mention that it's harder to simply edit anything IMO. StringTheory11 (t • c) 22:29, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Confirmed: VisualEditor will not load in Firefox 5.0. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:22, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
    • This isn't surprising; Firefox 5.0 was released in mid-2011 and is no longer supported.--Jorm (WMF) (talk) 22:27, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
      • Then being able to turn off VE, which I cannot use, would be very good, wouldn't it? As I have no interest in changing or upgrading browsers as mine works just fine for everything but VE. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:30, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
• I use version 6.0.5 of Safari and it isnt working.Blethering Scot 22:24, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Please could you provide more information about what operating system you are running? Thehelpfulone 22:26, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
  • (edit conflict)Works like a charm for me with Safari 6.0.5 on Mountain Lion; user agent Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10_8_4) AppleWebKit/536.30.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/6.0.5 Safari/536.30.1. Theopolisme (talk) 22:27, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

• Yes, on Mountain Lion it will work; Safari for Lion is different. I had a 2 hour phone call about this w/ Apple. Reported to Okeyes (WMF) but not interested. Victoria (talk) 22:41, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

• Let's be blunt: I can barely use Misplaced Pages right now because the section editing tags are knocked so far over to the left they are horrendous. Please install a turnoff button, instead of dismissing editors' concerns with "you'll like it". - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:29, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
  • 100% agreed. I fear that WP may lose many editors if a shutoff button ins't installed. StringTheory11 (t • c) 22:30, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
    • Bushranger, what OS and browser are you using? The opt-out script works fine for me. Ditto Stringtheory11, if you have problems. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 22:32, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
      • The editor itself works fine for me, but I can't stand how horrendously complicated it is to do something as simple as adding a template or a ref. StringTheory11 (t • c) 22:34, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
      • Windows 7 and Firefox 5.0. As noted above, the script isn't working for BMK either. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:34, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
        • Well, I'm really confused, then. I was given to understand that on something as outdated as 5.0 you simply shouldn't be presented with the option to use the VE. I'm going to follow up on this and try to work out why FF5.0 isn't being effectively blacklisted. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 22:36, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
          • At the top of articlespace pages (but not userspace or Wikipediaspace) there are 'edit this page' and 'edit source' buttons, and on the sections the 'edit' tab is bonked over left by an 'edit source' that pops up when I mouseover it. (This also does not appear on nonarticlespace pages.) - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:37, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
            • And you're not useragent spoofing or anything? Thanks for bringing it up; I'm going to make this highest-priority. We deliberately shouldn't be displaying the VE to you. @Beyond My Ken:, what's your setup in browser and OS terms? Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 22:41, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

• • • • • • • I'm using FF 22.0 under Windows 7 Home Premium with the Monobook interface, but my problem isn't with making VE work, my problem is that I'm trying to plow my way through a bunch of work and I really don't have time to be your guinea pig at the moment. I need a turn-off switch so I can disable VE now and take a look at it when I'm ready to. The script above did not in any way make a difference. It's good that your collecting data on what systems it works under etc., but I'm afraid your rather missing the point: you need to provide the turn-off switch and allow users who do not want to use it a chance not to. You cannot (or rather, you should not) be forcing this on us. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:51, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

• • • • • • • • • @Beyond My Ken: huh, weird. That's precisely my interface. Did you clear your cache? Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 23:00, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
                  • Yes, a number of times. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:21, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
              • Thanks, and AFAIK I'm not, since I've never heard of that or know what it is! - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:45, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
        • Using Mac OSX Lion 10.7.5. Safari 6.0.5. It isn't working is it the os version because its not the latest.22:39, 1 July 2013 (UTC)Blethering Scot
          • The VE isn't working, or the opt-out, or both? Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 22:41, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
            • Wasn't getting the option to use it but realised thats maybe because i use the modern skin, so switched to vector got the option but just wouldn't work at all.Blethering Scot 22:44, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
              • What does "not working" look like? (and did you clear your cache? It could be the user script isn't updating things yet). Sorry to be asking silly questions - just trying to pin down the source of the issue here. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 22:47, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
            • In my case, both. Here's what I'm seeing, even with the .js installed (mouse pointer is over the 'Racing career' edit button). - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:42, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
              • • I meant Blethering Scott; for you, are you useragent spoofing? Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 22:43, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
                  • ...since I have no idea what that is, I'm assuming no? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:45, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
                    • Oy :(. Okay, throwing this at the developers now. Thanks for bringing it to my attention - I'll give you a poke as soon as I've found out what on earth is going on. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 22:47, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
                      • Now at bugzilla:50534. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 22:53, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

• Bushranger - fix for your issue coming soon (hours, hopefully). PEarley (WMF) (talk) 23:41, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

• Thank you. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:47, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

• FF5.0 now shows the non-VE as default, thanks very much. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:20, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• • • @Okeyes: Please don't get into discussions whether the "opt-out script" is working or not. Make sure the opt-out preference is correctly added back to the user preferences. This is the only clean and acceptable solution. Everything else can be considered eyewash to make us more comfortable with the transition. All contents of VisualEditor are still loaded in the background and it only produces compatibility problems as those reported above. --Patrick87 (talk) 22:51, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
      • At the moment I'm making sure that the VisualEditor isn't loaded for users with blacklisted browsers. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 22:53, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
        • So we have to do user agent spoofing to be able to disable visual editor? Pretend to be somebody else who we actually are not just to get the features we need (and only those)? Is this what you want to tell me . What is the reason to not simply add back the pereference to disable VisualEditor? This is already in the code and would be a no-brainer to add back. Probably you even had to remove it prior to the final deployment of VisualEditor. I really do not understad what you are trying by patronizing us and forcing features on us we do not need? --Patrick87 (talk) 23:29, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

• My first impression is that I extremely don't like this. But, I am also a long-time veteran editor who is very comfortable with the classic edit window, so I know VE isn't really aimed at me anyway. VE will just slow me down, but hopefully it does help new/novice editors who would prefer a word processor-like experience. I can get used to clicking "edit source" at the top instead of "edit page", but my one request would be to have the ability to make each section's Edit button default to the classic window (or, as others ask, disable VE entirely). It may seem like a small thing to hover the edit link then move to the edit source button that appears, but I have always found such mouse overs cumbersome and annoying. Resolute 23:36, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Yes, it's totally annoying (as compared to the WMF statement that the old editor would still be able via "edit source" (it is, but it's inconvenient). Additionally this hover functionality breaks MediaWiki:Gadget-righteditlinks.css (which was only needed because the WMF broke the positioning of section edit links before, probably also to be able to add the hover functionality in the first place). --Patrick87 (talk) 23:45, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
    • As much as I don't like VE being enabled for everyone now, and as much as I don't like it not being disableable (see my killer script above), that was actually done by myself in my capacity as a volunteer developer. I won't repeat the reasoning which was already repeated here at VPT ad nauseamafter it was changed. :) Matma Rex talk 23:48, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

• I've had it enabled for a while, you do get used to it. That said, there's been enough requests for an opt-out that the VE team will be having some discussions on this point ASAP. PEarley (WMF) (talk) 23:50, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

• Thanks! I'm afraid to say, but this is the first WMF statement on this issue that sounds as if some consideration was put into, not trying to convince us that "everything is fine". Regarding the section edit link's position: I'm fine with that, I only wanted to note that those "features" offered by VE easier break already existing things than some might think. Every additional bit of code is prone to errors (that's a fact!). --Patrick87 (talk) 23:59, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

I should qualify this by saying that I will do my best to bring these concerns forward, and can promise nothing. PEarley (WMF) (talk) 00:13, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to add that the reason the devs didn't provide the built-in prefs switch is because what they wanted to provide (more like a fundamental per-user disabling than Matma Rex's script) was far more complex than expected, and it has serious bugs. (The old prefs switch wouldn't work in the current system; I admit that my eyes glazed over when the explanation started.)

If you've looked through the recent changes, then I'm sure you can understand why the devs believe that fixing the bugs that are resulting in dirty diffs screwing up some articles is more immediately urgent than adding a prefs switch, even though they are aware that an opt-out is important to the old hands (partly because Patrick and I have been pounding on the table and insisting that it's important, which we are planning to continue doing).

As proof that they understand how important this is, you should know that Matma Rex wrote his script in response to a direct request from the devs, when they realized that theirs was too unstable to release. They aren't trying to deprive you of control over your editing environment; they're just trying to work on what's most urgent. I think they were hoping that Matma's script would work well enough that it wouldn't be necessary to go back to "complicated", but if it's not, then Patrick and I know where the table is, and we can pound on it some more. But we need to work within reality: complicated code doesn't sort itself out just because we all want it to be fixed already. It will take time and careful thought. So if y'all can stand down for a few days, we'll see what we can do. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 06:25, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

While I appreciate that there's hard work going on to try to make everything work, I can't help but feel that, in that case, it would have been better to push back the deployment of VE, and to get it all done (or as close to 'all done' as feasible), and then roll it out, instead of rolling out an incompleted product and touching off a firestorm among the editing base that has, apparently, resulted in editors leaving - quite the opposite of what VE was intended to do. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 06:32, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm only aware of one editor leaving (if there are more, I'm happy to talk to them). Actually, I agree, it would be nice if things were much more workable. But it's worth noting that a lot of the bugs and issues we're dealing with here are not bugs we'd encountered before - sometimes the best way to identify them is to follow the "many eyes" principle. We could have perfectly-designed software, and have it rendered buggy and useless by how people use it in practise, which means that finding out how people use it is key to making it function. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 06:43, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

True 'nuff - that's why everyone, when something is rolled out, needs to be issued a complimentary can of Raid. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 07:43, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

If only it was that easy! (I note that with this edit we're now having a conversation via edit summary, which is somewhat meta - although not as meta, presumably, as me referring to it in the abstract). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 07:49, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Purely personal opinion: you might decide that I'm being excessively cynical, but my experience is that power users (a category that is broad enough to include basically anyone posting to this page) almost never actually leave because of something like this. See meatball:GoodBye, and check the user's contributions in a couple of weeks. WhatamIdoing (talk) 08:55, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Keyboard shortcut disambiguation needed

Previously, during editing, Alt-Shift-V activated Show Changes; now it is also assigned to the new (Visual) Edit shortcut. That means neither action is automatically activated, causing extra keystrokes to show-changes or new-edit. Dl2000 (talk) 23:35, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

"Opt out" of VE needed under preferences

A Gadget to hide all UI elements of VisualEditor using JavaScript is selectable here (section "Editing"). Note, however, that it is still loaded in background. Please consider testing the VisualEditor for some time first and report any issues you might be facing on the feedback page.

• Support We need a way for those who wish to easily opt out of this VE and use the old editing interface just how it was before. Please add. After 80,000 edit I do not need a new editor. I support the VE for those who wish to use it. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 23:38, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support; this shouldn't need to be brought up. StringTheory11 (t • c) 23:46, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
• Strong support Paternalism by the WMF is not acceptable. There are preferences for things much less important. The Editor is the central component of Misplaced Pages and therefore needs it's own setting in preferences. I want to be able to configure which editor I'm using. The code for the opt-out preference is already there (it was used in the beta-phase), so implementation (or rather adding back) of the preference is a no-brainer. --Patrick87 (talk) 23:51, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support, while my browser will shortly be blacklisted from VE making it a non-issue, offering people who don't like it the choice to say no is a good thing. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:56, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support: I never really did see a response about why this feature is not available. SL93 (talk) 00:04, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support. This seems like a no-brainer. Everyking (talk) 00:12, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
• guys, there is a way to get out of it. As explained above, if you add:

  importScript('User:Matma_Rex/VE_killer.js');

• to your common.js, everything goes back to normal. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 00:40, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

  We want a simple clean "do not load" option under preferences. I do not think that is too much to ask. When VE works or is better than what we have now people will use it. CUrrently it unfortunately is not. The fact that it does not easily handle referencing is a deal breaker for me. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:48, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

  • Why would you rather repeatedly inform editors of this? Less editors would need to be informed of that if the option to opt out is in preferences. SL93 (talk) 00:47, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

  No, it doesn't, it only hides VE after it's loaded. So we have it flash in, then flash out, and all of the code is still loaded. It's an awful, crude workaround. Matma Rex talk 00:43, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

  Which is sub-optimal, I appreciate, but mostly out of performance concerns. For those users who simply don't like the interface, we now even have it gadgetised to simplify things. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 00:46, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

  And performance concerns are negligible or how should I understand your statement? Why don't you just add back the user preference which was there before? The setting would fit into the "Edit" section much better than it fits into the Gadgets section anyway (and it would be a clean solution in contrast to the Gadget-version). Since when is WMF promoting Gadgets anyway? Last time I asked about a Gadget broken by the WMF the response was "we don't support Gadgets so we're afraid we cant help you". --Patrick87 (talk) 01:07, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support: A request for a preferences click box is not the same as "use this script to kill it." Sorry, I think there should be a check box in preferences to turn off Visual Editor. I never heard about it until last week; today it appeared on my screen and I don't want to use it. I think there should be a way to opt in/out in preferences whether or not there is a script to get rid of it. What if someone wishes to turn it off now, and turn it back on later when the bugs have been ironed out? Ellin Beltz (talk) 00:45, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

  There (strictly speaking) now is one, here (top of "editing"). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 00:46, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

  Strictly speaking there is no such option to disable Visual Editor. The proposed Gadget only hides it's UI, the Visual Editor is loaded in background nonetheless. --Patrick87 (talk) 01:35, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support It would be nice to have this choice. Mark Arsten (talk) 00:46, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

  There's now a gadget checkbox here (top of "editing") if you want to hide it. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 00:46, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

  Thanks Okeyes. That definitely makes it easier to figure out and apply. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:50, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

  Looks good, thanks. Mark Arsten (talk) 01:11, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support It's rather ridiculous this was not included at launch. Those of us who have already learned Wikimarkup gain little to no benefit from it, although I do think it'll be great for new users. Adam Cuerden 00:50, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support I thought there was going to be one... I remember this being said a month or so ago, what happened? "When it becomes the default, you can go to Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-editing and turn it off. Of course we can't predict what might happen far in the future, but, at this time, there are absolutely no plans to remove the old editor." I went today to look in my preferences to turn this off because i saved this in my sandbox to opt out when the time came but apparently it's not there. I would like it to be there though instead of having to opt out using JS. — -dainomite   00:57, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
  • It was planned, but the code turned out to be seriously buggy at the last minute. Getting it really, truly off (rather than just covered up) is more complicated than expected. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 06:32, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support We want to be able to switch VE off completely, please. Would you bring back the switch in preferences?--Aschmidt (talk) 01:06, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

  As I see now, it's back in the preferences pane. Thanks!--Aschmidt (talk) 01:12, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

  No, sadly it is not. A Gadget was added that hides all UI elements of Visual editor (or rather undoes it's changes to the UI). The Visual Editor itself is still loaded in the background. --Patrick87 (talk) 01:37, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support There are many of us who hate slow-loading, script-bloated boxes (and thanks for a script gadget to remove it, but no). However, it is clear that a hope is retained that we will learn to like the visual editor, so let's compromise. Mark the preferences option as experimental, with some wording that the setting will be cleared each month. Then, everyone gets to try the new system at least once a month. I see the report above that it's back, but I thought I would post what I had written anyway. Johnuniq (talk) 01:16, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Your writing is still valid. The Gadget provided only hides the VisualEditor's UI elements, the setting to correctly disable it is not back yet. The VisualEditor itself and all of it's JavaScript is still loaded in the background. Therefore this setting solves none of the "slow-loading, script-bloated boxes" but only hides them. --Patrick87 (talk) 01:42, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
• Preferences → Gadgets → Remove VisualEditor from the user interface --  Gadget850 01:15, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• Excellent, thanks! I hope visual editor does what the devs hope, but I like my kludgy wikisyntax and edit box.  ;) Resolute 01:20, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
  • You can use the old editor even with VisualEditor turned on next to it. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 06:32, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• • I realize this, but I noted above that having section edit links default to VE was a nuisance, even if the mouseover brings up a parallel link. I viewed this as a minor nuisance, but still one that I am happy to eliminate by turning VE off. I'm not dismissing the work you guys put in to setting this up, but the classic interface is better for me and the option to disable simplifies things. Resolute 14:53, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support as expressed above; a total no-brainer. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:18, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support Firstly because we were being promised repeatedly that this option would always exist- not providing it discredits all the editors who made the promise. Support because editing is 40% text and 60% references, and training a group of new editors to hop over the edit button to the edit source, so they can add a reference blows their confidence immediately. Support because VE is so unstable it can only be used by experienced editors who can navigate around its shortcomings- it is not suitable for new editors. We need a quick way to help new editors to blank it out.-- Clem Rutter (talk) 01:31, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support. The Gadgets version is not sufficient; for best performance the VE code simply should not be loaded. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 01:55, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support. The VE should NOT be forced on people. Many people have spent many years learning and perfecting wiki markup and code. If you want VE enabled by default on new accounts sure, but it should NOT be forced on existing editors. Jguy _Talk 03:20, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• sigh* just logged into my work machine (which is sadly IE8 (it's still supported as long as XP is supported)) and the interface is completely broken for me, even with the 'gadget' checked. The javascript being loaded is way too much. And en.wikipedia.org is in my list of trusted Intranet safe sites. This is where I do a majority of my editing, so I suppose I'm done with Misplaced Pages until such a time where the old editor is brought back and/or the option to disable VE completely is brought forward. It is quite sad to see all of these editors bow out because of this forced change, many of whom have been here for many years. I've witnessed 5 so far myself. This should not be forced, it should be an opt-in. We should also not be told to 'deal with it'. Jguy _Talk 03:47, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

...according to what I can see, you shouldn't be getting anything VE-related on IE8, as anything from IE10 or before is blacklisted for it? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 03:59, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

@Jguy:: Bushranger is, as usual, correct; you shouldn't be getting this. Can you send me a screenshot or something when you have time? Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 06:41, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps my browser was having an episode, as the site works correctly this AM (it was previously completely unbrowsable due to the amount of Javascript, e.g. would not load). My opinion still stands. While you might think the VE is the next big thing I do not support it being forced onto people and enabled in their preferences automatically. While it might not be broken and might include all the features to make editing easier, its quite apparent that most editors do not like it because they're used to what they know. This obviously is the exact opposite of 'easy' to them. This action by the WMF is almost like them playing 'big brother' and forcing things and ideals on people. What happened to concensus on this? Was it decided in a RfC that all editors will have it enabled by default come July 1st? I can't wait until it gets enabled on other language wiki's. We're going to have a very bad storm on our hands before too long. Jguy _Talk 13:15, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support. Logged on this morning to find it enabled by default - spent a couple of minutes finding out how to disable it which I've now, thankfully, done. In an ideal world, experienced editors should be seeing a big red button on their screen saying "VE is here - here is a demonstration of how it works, and here is how to disable it if you don't like it." I may use it in time, but that will be in my own time, not yours, thank you very much. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:48, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

  That's fair enough. The VE should actually be showing a help interstitial; is that not occurring? We advertised it fairly prominently beforehand (blog posts, signpost coverage, village pump notices dating back a year, a watchlistnotice for weeks, a centralnotice for a week); if you can come up with any ideas for us to do better next time, I'd be most appreciative. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 08:00, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

  Small, unbolded messages at the top of the screen are what everyone - new users, old users, everyone - completely ignores. I knew it was coming in, but expected more warning (message on talk page, perhaps?), and some more explanation. Geeky explanations using words like "interstitial" and "javascript" are, for some of us, utterly meaningless and useless. But thanks for responding! Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:08, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

  Here's the problem: people ignore it because it's the communications method we use. If we start bolding them, six months later people will say "oh, I don't read those". If we make them blink, then we'll discover blink-blindness sets in.

  Meanwhile, if we notified everyone by more agressive means (talkpages, email), I fear we'd get more people yelling about the notifications than would yell about not being notified! Andrew Gray (talk) 22:40, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support Exactly what User:Ghmyrtle said. Cheers, Lindsay 08:11, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support. This is yet another botched new feature deployment by the WMF. I've made it perfectly clear that I don't want to be screwed around with and the WMF have made it clear that it will be actually disableable (not fake disableable via gadgets). What is going on? MER-C 08:55, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

  I can't see any comment in that FAQ that says that. It was, I think, in a previous version, when the FAQ was volunteer maintained and written. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 09:00, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

  Re "botched"; if you want to talk through what you think we could have done better, I'm happy to do that. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 09:02, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

  Isn't it obvious? How about fixing all known bugs and making it reasonably feature complete (redirecting a page?) before wide-scale deployment? How about not foisting said buggy software on clueless newbies? How about not deploying a mess of slow-loading JavaScript with no means of getting rid of it? (Whatever happened to the bit about increasing participation in the Global South, where internet is crap?) We are here to build an encyclopedia, not test bloated, buggy software! Oh, and fire Eloquence, as him not giving a rat's arse (on multiple occasions) is fully incompatible with his role at the WMF. MER-C 10:55, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

  If we followed that standard, we'd have to shut down Misplaced Pages entirely. There are "known bugs" for the old system, too. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 11:45, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

  Hi everyone recently I used the visual editor while trying to edit a page. It definitely falls way short in terms of replacing the wikimarkup editing if you want my opinion. I immediately disabled it. ---$o#aM ❊  আড্ডা  09:15, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

  Okay; can you explain anything specific it needs to improve at handling? Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 09:20, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• I'm not even going to TRY to figure out if I'm posting in the right spot. I said last night that I was gone, and that's just how I feel/felt. And I thank Doc James for pointing me to this thread - and at least when I clicked edit I got a window I could work in. Anyway .. changes like this VE thing should be either "for new editors" or they should be an "opt-IN" thing. I knew what was when I signed up for wiki .. and this VE thing wasn't it. I'm not even tempted to go looking for any "opt-OUT". If it's progress, that's fine ... but I'm not interested. No offense Okeyes, I'm glad you trying to recruit NEW editors - but I really do despair for the "OLD" ones. Press 1 for English? ... BS .. press 1 for some foreign language. — Ched :  ?  13:12, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support. I thought the purpose of the Visual Editor was to engage new editors, not to scare away the established ones. Even if the VE had all the features available in the regular editing window (which it doesn't) and worked flawlessly (ditto), I much prefer to spend my limited Misplaced Pages time on actual editing, instead of on re-learning every editing habit I have.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); July 2, 2013; 14:27 (UTC)
• Support. I've clicked on the new "edit" button by mistake a few times, and the articles have been slow to load (one took 15 seconds), but when I hit the back button or stop, my browser briefly froze, so having these two tabs next to each other is not ideal. An opt-out would be very helpful. An opt-in would be better still, because I think the VE (as currently presented) is going to make things harder for editors, new and old. At the very least, so long as the two tabs are next to each other, the new VE tab should be called Visual Editor, or "new editor" or something, rather than "edit," which would reduce mistaken clicks. SlimVirgin 17:10, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support. There's almost never a good reason to force things on us, and this is definitely no exception; we need to make it disableable instead of just hideable. Nyttend (talk) 17:35, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support. I agree with pretty much everything that's been said here. It would be nice to able to choose Visual Editor on occasion, but it's been really annoying to hit "edit" and find myself in a situation where I can't edit categories, can't easily edit old coding, etc. Furthermore, because VE is somewhat handicapped, it seems to me that newbies who originally get involved via VE should have an easy way to opt out of the default -- and adding a string to JavaScript isn't an easy opt-out. --Orlady (talk) 17:39, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support - I think the concept of VE is great but the implementation is thus far terrible. I agree with the comments here as well. Kumioko (talk) 17:43, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support North8000 (talk) 17:46, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support What a croc o' shite. Lugnuts 18:20, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support VE is great for new editors and I even support turing it on by default, but it's laborious and clunky for old hands. Please just turn the existing checkbox option into one that completely disables it when selected. Pol430 talk to me 22:31, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support I was told, back when the tests and all started, that I would have the choice to opt-out (to be exact, I was referred to the FAQ, which back then said I could turn this infernal gadget off). Now, when this thing is launched, I don't have such an option after all. I feel conned. Plus, having this thing load in the background is a real issue for my terribly slow internet connection. All of which, I've already told you, repeatedly. But, hey, I'm just an old hand, and I'll "never actually leave because of something like this". Right? Manxruler (talk) 01:02, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support Why? Why make this difficult for users, who prefer not to have it and are now forced to wait three times as long for a page to load, and even longer in some cases to suppress it?—cyberpower _Online 01:50, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support My system is not the newest or fastest in the world, and I don't see why I should have slower load times and fidgety edit links when I will never use this feature. I tried it, I hated it, I'm done with it. -Rrius (talk) 03:26, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support The Crab Who Played With The Sea (talk) 08:13, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support. I got rid of it, it has returned. There needs to be a better way. Tassedethe (talk) 00:05, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support. The gadget only hides it, it doesn't stop it from loading. IMO VE is still too buggy and clumsy to use. —Bruce1ee 05:08, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support I'm another with a slower system who found this imposed upon me with no easy way to disable it and nothing whatsoever on the Editing section of Preferences. Timrollpickering (talk) 15:16, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support Why is this a discussion and not common sense? I like the visual editor, I just don't want to ALWAYS use it. -- A Certain White Cat 19:46, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support - I know it's summer but it's definitely SNOWing here. I haven't seen such clear, overwhelming consensus about anything in a long time - hopefully the WMF will take note for future... GiantSnowman 10:56, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Actually I've never seen such clear and overwhelming ignorance as the WMF is currently expressing by not seeing this consensus. I'm sad to say it but I'm deeply disappointed with their work. The atmosphere is freezing here! --Patrick87 (talk) 11:28, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support and even strong support as currently VE is more damageable than useful, but still support after bugs are fixed and features redesigned to be useful because every user can choose by himself if he wants the overhead of VE or not. --NicoV 16:38, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support, of course. Opt-out should be provided piece of the software and not something we have to hack together on after the fact. Dragons flight (talk) 16:59, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support, I'm shocked at how slowly and poorly this thing works for something being foisted on all editors as ready to use. Nor do I personally have any desire to spend my time learning how to do things with it that I already know how to do in normal editing, as I've found the VE remarkably unintuitive. As commented by many above, turning it off needs to be easy and complete. postdlf (talk) 17:19, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support. Obviously, especially when the VE is likely to lose editors rather than gain some. the effect it has on one new editor. I'm wondering how many thousands of others feel like this. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 00:46, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support - The new JS loads slowly and the extra tabs clutter the appearance of pages; in what world do you add a clunky, bug-ridden 'feature' to the core productivity area of your site and not provide the option to properly disable it? FLHerne (talk) 17:03, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support - This would be especially useful for editors with slow internet connections and us WikiNerds who want to edit their plain markup. Furthermore this shouldn't have been ruled out without an option to properly and completely turn it off. -- Toshio Yamaguchi 13:48, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support While have have it hidden, I still have the issues where my browser (Firefox and Chrome) freezes or crashes. Bidgee (talk) 13:51, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
  • There is no way in heaven that that can be related to either the VE init script or the VE hide script. These two scripts are so minimal now, I can't imagine for the life of me that they would cause a crash. (ULS seems more likely). —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 14:56, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
    • I don't have the problem until I load the English Misplaced Pages, it didn't have the issue before the VE rollout and I don't have the issue on Commons. It maybe "minimal" but it causes the freezing and crashing of the browser on all of my computers (not just one). Bidgee (talk) 15:46, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
      • Bidgee, you only seem to be active here, at Meta, and at Commons. Universal Language Selector, which was unfortunately turned on the day after VisualEditor, is configured differently at multilingual projects (e.g., Meta and Commons) than it is at the Wikipedias. It would be very helpful if you would try to see whether you have the same problems at another Misplaced Pages, like de.wikipedia (where VisualEditor has not been made available to all users yet). If you get the same problems there, it's almost certainly ULS. Additionally, it would be helpful to have browser and OS information if you continue experiencing problems. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 21:33, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
        • It is clearly a VE issue, I have no issues with de.wikipedia and simple.wikipedia. OS X 10.8.4 running Firefox 22.0 and Chrome 28.0.1500.71, My Windows 7 desktop and laptop both have latest updated browsers (FF 22 and C 28.0.1500.71 m) and have the same issue with English Misplaced Pages as the OSX. Bidgee (talk) 05:58, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
          • Still having issues with VE running in the background, please give us the function that will allow us to disable it! Bidgee (talk) 15:30, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support should be able to be turned off and on by the user like many other features. — MrDolomite • Talk 17:57, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support I tried it, but it was way too slow for my computer, and I couldn't figure out how to include simple wikitext without having to click at a lot of places, wasting a lot of extra time. I immediately disabled it, but it still takes extra time to load articles. I've considered disabling JavaScript for English Misplaced Pages, but this would sadly also disable essential tools such as WP:TW. --Stefan2 (talk) 19:48, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support; also, make VE better please. It needs to be the way of the future. I made an edit (wikitext) to United States the other day and it was essentially impossible because there are roughly 500 kajillion citations on the page. It was almost impossible to see where the article text was in the editing box because it was so drowned in citations. VE would've made that a LOT easier. Please. Get VE fixed. Red Slash 19:20, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support. I'm actually somewhat astonished that the opt-out preference has not been added yet. The arguments seem to boil down to this:

  Core user: "VE is not helpful, I don't want to use it, please let me turn it off."

  WMF: "If we allow core users to disable VE, then we won't get the feedback we need to improve VE."

Here's the flaw in that reasoning: If people don't want to use VE, they're not going to, and making it harder for them to not use it isn't going to make them want to use it more. If feedback on this feature is so important to you that you're willing to ignore unanimous consensus from the community of core editors to try to get it, shouldn't it also be important enough that you would be willing to, say, hire testers? I really don't understand how you guys came to the conclusion that the only way to get the feedback you need is to deny editors the option of not giving feedback. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 00:42, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

When will it be enabled?

I have been waiting for the launch of VisualEditor, but it still hasn't been enabled for me yet. Specs: I use the English Misplaced Pages, run Firefox Portable 22.0 (by PortableApps.com) and am using it on an HP Pavilion P6 running Windows 8. George8211 20:25, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

It is out. If you try to edit an article and don't see both and "Edit" and "Edit source" tab at the top of the page, then your browser is not recognized as supported. (Note that VisualEditor is only present on article and user pages right now.) Firefox 22 should be supported, but possibly PortableApps changed the identification string in a way that Mediawiki doesn't recognize. I'd suggest asking at Misplaced Pages:VisualEditor/Feedback. Dragons flight (talk) 20:37, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

A bit of waiting, and it is now working. Thanks for the help. George8211 14:52, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

VE Problems

Magnification

I use a 125% screen magnification, so when I try to edit a table or template or what have you there's overlapping dialogue boxes. They must not have tested it at different zoom settings. Please see File:Overlapping dialogue boxes with visual editor.JPG. I use a Toshiba laptop and run Chrome. -- Diannaa (talk) 23:49, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

I saw this behavior briefly in Chrome but was unable to reproduce it consistently in either Chrome or Firefox Cmcmahon(WMF) (talk) 00:17, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Maybe you could look at the accompanying image. I am getting this behaviour consistently. -- Diannaa (talk) 00:24, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi Diannaa, I see the problem you're referring to, but I'm also having a problem reproducing the issue on my machine. A few things that would be helpful:

* Version of Chrome you're using

* Which page you're editing

* Exact sequence of events to get to the screen you're looking at

* Any gadgets or user javascript you might have installed

Also, if there are other people here who see the same thing, that would also be helpful information. Thanks! -- RobLa-WMF (talk) 00:31, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Nevermind, we just figured it out. It's a matter of scrolling down the page a little bit before bringing up a dialog. -- RobLa-WMF (talk) 00:35, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for reporting this, I have noted it in our bug tracking system. Cmcmahon(WMF) (talk) 00:44, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

For the record, at my default zoom I see this issue routinely as well. Dragons flight (talk) 02:03, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

The bug has been closed, and appears fixed for me. John Vandenberg 02:37, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Adding references

Every sentence I add to Misplaced Pages is accompanied by a high quality reference. We have an amazing tool in the WP:Edit box that formats and fills in the reference based on the PMID or ISBN. Can this new VE do this? I have fiddled with it and am unable to figure out how. Here is instructions on how we use the toolbar Misplaced Pages:MEDHOW#Steps_for_editing and a few instructions on other options when it is not working (which is unfortunately too much of the time) Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:12, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

I've been using the template button (the puzzle piece one) to access the cite templates, which works. There has been some demand for a ref toolbar-like functionality for the reference button in VE - there seems to be some cross-wiki compatibility issues (not all wikis support the cite temps) that make it difficult. It would be a desirable improvement if it's at all possible, I'll check the enhancement requests ... PEarley (WMF) (talk) 00:51, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

It requires many many clicks. It does not fill in all the details based on the PMID (there is no autofill button). Of the 50 or so language of Misplaced Pages I have looked at only one does not support it and that was Polish. They did this so that people cannot do translation easily, but that is another issue. I have been unable to properly fill out a single reference with the VE based on a PMID. Is there a page of instructions? It is definitely not intuitive, at least not for me. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 01:18, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

So does this mean references are free form now? That we no longer have a guiding structure for people to work with? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 01:29, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm with ya. The developers know of this concern, and are working on improvements. This is the bug report on the topic. PEarley (WMF) (talk) 01:51, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

But why is this being rolled out before this is fixed? This is essential. A VE that does not make it easy to add references is useless. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 10:50, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Anyway am going to turn VE off. I people could let me know when auto fill of ISBNs and PMIDs is supported again will give it another try.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 02:52, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Using the VE twice in a row

When I make two VE edits back to back the second edit states "You are editing an old revision of this page" Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:12, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

I had this problem as well. -- Diannaa (talk) 00:25, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

I've only had the problem when transcluding templates. Under what circumstances did you encounter it? --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 00:32, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Just now, I tried to edit Treasure (Bruno Mars song) to correct an error a new person made with the Visual Editor. When I try a second time in a new window, the problem did not recur. -- Diannaa (talk) 00:41, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

I just reproduced it in my sandbox. Word on the street is that it's a caching issue. If it persists, I'll make a bug report (if Maggie hasn't already). PEarley (WMF) (talk) 00:45, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

It's a known issue. _→AzaToth 01:54, 2 July 2013 (UTC) Tracked in Phabricator
Task T52441

This has been fixed. John Vandenberg 01:50, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Edit notice

Unless the edit notice is removed before opening a dialogue box, it lays there on top of the box, making it impossible to edit the content, or in the case of a bigger edit notice, to even see the content. It's not very intuitive as to how to make the edit notice go away, either. -- Diannaa (talk) 00:56, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

This is being tracked. PEarley (WMF) (talk) 03:59, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Bug closed, however this problem is still reproducible with the link editor dialog. John Vandenberg 02:06, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Editing fully protected pages

Using Visual Editor, an administrator is not warned that they are editing a fully-protected page. Tested on Mahathir Mohamad -- Diannaa (talk) 01:25, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

This too. PEarley (WMF) (talk) 04:03, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

This one has been fixed. John Vandenberg 01:51, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

However there are two lower priority regressions outstanding: Bugzilla:51215 & Bugzilla:50783. John Vandenberg 01:54, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Blacklist + Gadget = Bad Things?

As a note, apparently the gadget to turn off VE interacts poorly with the browser blacklist (which my FF5.0 is on). I ticked the gadget box regardless of the blacklist, and after I removed the .js VE-killer which had made the edit button vanish completely, everything was fine...until I got to Bird species described in the 2000s (decade), which had the 'edit this page' button vanish when the page finished loading. Unticking the gadget fixed this. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:46, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Bushranger. I'll pass this on. PEarley (WMF) (talk) 04:16, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Add a code editor to the template editor

It is a HUGE pain to enter templates with many parameters (such as citations) using the workflow of Add Parameter -> Enter Parameter Value -> Repeat. Many extra mouse clicks and other interruptions. In terms of making small edits to the values, the visual layout is probably okay, but having to enter a lot of new values is tedious. An option that could be very useful is to show an equivalent wikicode block at the bottom of the template editor (or provide a similar mechanism) that allows one to quickly make a raw edit to the template inputs without having to fully back out of the visual editor. Dragons flight (talk) 02:10, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

This is related to the TemplateData issue, described here: Misplaced Pages:VisualEditor/TemplateData. If TemplateData has been added, the parameters are listed on the left of the dialog, making life much more pleasant. PEarley (WMF) (talk) 04:07, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Clicking on ten different side items is still a slow and annoying way to enter a template (not helped by the fact citation templates support dozens of parameters). More significantly, none of the citation templates I tried actually showed parameter lists even though they already have TemplateData on their pages. So that feature does not appear to be working. Dragons flight (talk) 04:16, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Hmm, you're right. Just tried "cite book", and no parameter list despite the presence of TemplateData. I'll look into this ... PEarley (WMF) (talk) 04:23, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Categories duplicated, strange invisible table added at the bottom of a page

I used Vedit to add a comma and some italics to Michala Petri, and got more changes than I expected (I subsequently undid the extra changes). Check the edit that brought it to size 6,152 bytes. Did I click something I shouldn't have, or did this add something valuable to the page that I just don't understand? Chris the speller  02:42, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Wasn't your fault, see bug above. It added WP:Persondata, which is useful metadata. But it shouldn't be adding it without being asked to. PEarley (WMF) (talk) 04:15, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

This happens quite a lot, e.g. here and other occasions today. Fram (talk) 14:16, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

This duplication (in an ugly format) of Persondata happens quite a lot, I just corrected this error in 42 articles, which is way too much for the short time VE has been life, the limited number of people using it, and the fact that many of these errors had already been reverted (and more may still be unnoticed). A few things I remarked and which may help in solving the issue; most (but sadly not all) of the articles were about musicians, many of them with the infobox musical artist; and (if I checked correctly) all of them are in the (large) Category:Persondata templates without short description parameter category. Could this be given some priority: together with the nowiki problems, it's the single most often occurring error (of the errors that make it into the articles), and even though it has no direct influence on the article, it may affect later changes to cats or persondata negatively. The nowiki errors, and the problems with infoboxes and other templates are more urgent than this, but it still is something that should get tackled pretty soon if possible... Fram (talk) 10:01, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

This was a difficult bug to track down, but I'm happy to report that it is now fixed. --GWicke (talk) 03:47, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! I haven't found any new ones with this problem anymore, but it's still early days. If it does reappear, I'll drop a note here. Assuming I can find it, that is, as it seems that the VE edittag has been removed, making it a lot harder (or nearly impossible) to track VE bugs of course. Isn't it a bit premature to remove that tag? Or is there another way to find VE edits easily? Fram (talk) 07:42, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

This seems to have indeed been fixed, no new examples are appearing, so thanks. Fram (talk) 12:39, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Turning a page into a redirect

First attempt at the Visual Editor, first mistake or bug. I tried to turn Huddleston Elementary School into a redirect. Adding the #REDIRECT, but that was turned into "nowiki" automatically. Fine so far, but how are we supposed to add the "redirect" magic word without the nowiki markup in Visual Editor? I have checked all buttons, and can't seem to find it. It's not really useful to have an editor that doesn't let you make all changes, since this means that prior to editing, you have to think about whether the type of change you want to make is supported by VE or not... Mind you, apparently I'm lucky that I got that far, further attempts at other pages only gave gibberish, with the software adding a second # when I put #, and other related problems. Fram (talk) 08:17, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Can't be done (yet). Creating and editing redirects is on the list of improvements for "soon" (but I believe that it's on the list to be done after some of the critical improvements to references). Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 08:50, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Editing redirects isn't that urgent, you don't get the option to use VE there so you can't do it wrong. But creating redirects is more urgent, since there the VE option is standard, but it doesn't work for this. But thanks for the swift reply. Fram (talk) 08:54, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

I've added a note to the closest related existing bug, just to make sure this doesn't get overlooked accidentally. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 09:06, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Get the user interface right

Currently the UI is loaded via JavaScript. This makes the edit buttons "flicker" in after page load (see e.g. bugzilla:50542). Additionally the section edit links for the Wikitext editor are hidden behind links that need to be hovered first needing time and being inconvenient.

I see WMF's wish to have both editors coexisting but this is only possible if VisualEditor adds itself seamlessly into the UI (which it currently does not!) and the Wikitext editors keeps exactly as usable as it was before (which it currently is not!). I'm therefore strongly requesting that you fix those UI bugs. Do it correctly (maybe at the PHP level on the server instead of at the JavaScript level on the user's machine) and much of the controversy might be resolved! --Patrick87 (talk) 10:18, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

UI improvements, in terms of both quality and performance, is an important area for us, I know, and there are bugs in place for dealing with things like the slow loading times and the sheer size (as well as UI tweaks). I can't speak for the developers here (and frankly I'm not technical enough to comment directly - I write in R, and that's it), but I remember that with AFT5, when we tried to use PHP to make these kind of UI elements we ended up with one hell of a caching problem. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 10:22, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Can you explain what you mean by the wikitext editor not being as usable as it was before? I haven't seen any reports that anything has changed with it, other than the label being "edit source". Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 10:30, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• I have to first hover over section edit links before being able to reach the same functionality than I did before (see for example bugzilla:50540).
• On page load it takes significant time until all buttons are available / replaced by Visual editor (see e.g. bugzilla:50542).
• "Edit" has a different meanings in different namespaces sometimes starting VisualEditor and sometimes the Wikitext editor making it hard to find the link one actually wants (see bugzilla:50402).
• Incompatibilities caused by the much more complex code needed for all the VisualEditor "features" (e.g. bugzilla:50405). VE might have been coded having usability for new user and style in mind, but not usability for power users and code stability/compatibility.

Those are the things I find most annoying right now (besides the still unusable VisualEditor we're forced to betatest). --Patrick87 (talk) 12:01, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. It is helpful to know what you meant. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 08:55, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Nowiki

Looking over actual VisualEditor edits (coupled with my own experience with it), the one thing that IMO simply has to change is the automatic addition of "nowiki" tags when people e.g. play with square brackets. The vast majority of errors introduced by VisualEditor are unwanted nowiki tags, while the amount of "wanted" nowiki tags is extremely small (in my sample of some 100 edits, none, against some 15 nowiki errors). Examples which I corrected (many others were corrected by the original editor, but required thus a second edit for no good reason): a, extreme one...

By sheer number of errors, and ratio of errors vs. benefit of this, this has to be the most prominent problem in VisualEditor as of now. Any idea if and when this will be corrected? Fram (talk) 10:23, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

I think someone at the WMF said something like "It's not a bug; it's a feature!" on that. πr (t • c) 13:12, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Probably, but it's a feature that's not only unwanted but actually harmful. Things like this and this actually create errors, and I still haven't seen a single edit where this behaviour was actually wanted (there are bound to be one or two where it works as designed, but that's like having an airbag that deploys every time you brake; sometimes it will be useful, but...). Fram (talk) 13:22, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

I think this is under discussion, but at this point VE assumes that if you put markup directly into it, you are wanting to talk about it rather than use it - from what I understand, developers are being encouraged to add a note or warning so that experienced editors don't make this mistake. (I'll look for the ticket number.) Obviously, newcomers aren't making it because they don't know the markup to begin with. --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 13:44, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Found it. :) Tracking number added. --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 13:47, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

VE is only enabled in mainspace and userspace. It's rare in userspace and very rare in mainspace to talk about wiki markup. I wouldn't be surprised if more than 99% of VE nowiki additions in mainspace are errors. PrimeHunter (talk) 14:01, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Agreed with PrimeHunter, and disagree with the bugzilla solution: a warning isn't sufficient, this is simply obnoxious behaviour by the software. "Warning: the software isn't going to allow you to do something useful for no good reason at all, please try another method to achieve this" is better than what we have now, but that's about the best I can say about it. It's too soon to tell whether truly new editors will have the same problem, but very recent ones certainly have this problemFram (talk) 14:27, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Note: A warning may be easier to implement, but there's also another feature request (bugzilla:49686) about automatically converting such wikitext. guillom 14:32, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

If you can, please add your thoughts to the bug. It's really helpful for the developers to hear directly from community about what works and what doesn't. If not, I can certainly post there with some of your comments. --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 14:30, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't like Bugzilla, neither the interface not the followup time nor the reactions I sometimes get there from developers. It doesn't give the impression that it is taken seriously. Back to the problem at hand: for some reason, sometimes only the closing nowiki tag is added, e.g. here, with editors struggling to correct this in VisualEditor. Fram (talk) 08:02, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Update: apparently new editors get "nowiki" errors as well, so the justification that "Obviously, newcomers aren't making it because they don't know the markup to begin with." is invalid as well: new editor whose first edit yesterday was with VisualEditor. Fram (talk) 09:13, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

This one as well, so it's not really an exceptional occurrence. Fram (talk) 09:16, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi Fram, thanks for the reports and the links to the diffs which is quite helpful to see what is going on. The <nowiki/> added there is to prevent link-trails since the user only selected part of a word and linked it. This could be addressed by warning the user when a part of a word is being linked, but these kind of nowiki-markups are far fewer in number. The majority of nowikis being added which is the cause of a lot of anguish are the ones added around literal wikimarkup for links (which is being discussed in a couple of different bug reports), and those kind of errors are highly unlikely to be done by newcomers. This is not to indicate that your concerns are not legitimate, but just a clarification about different scenarios where nowikis get inserted. To summarize, these kind of nowikis you point out are not very common. Ssastry (talk) 22:33, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm not convinced that new editors don't have these nowiki problems, e.g. this terrible edit is fulled with nowikis, and is being made by a brand new editor (may have been an IP editor, or a sock, of course). Fram (talk) 08:04, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

To support Fram remark, Filter 550 is rather showing that the nowikis tags are added by many users without a user page, so probably by many new editors. So it's really not a problem limited to experienced users. --NicoV 08:09, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Another example of new editor with nowiki problems. Fram (talk) 14:30, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

My two penn'orth. I've lost count of how many pages I've corrected where the error was entirely due to the insertion of some sort of <nowiki></nowiki> tag. This has to be the most absurd "feature" sprung on people. I can't imagine too there being any use for such in a main page, only in meta pages like these which discuss problems with markup. It needs to be removed pdq or sooner. 05:29, 13 July 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnmperry (talk • contribs)

The devs are working on this right now. It sounds like "have it completely fixed by the next update" is unlikely, but they are hoping to at least reduce the number of nowiki problems soon. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 01:26, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Actually it looks like we'll have a system in place by/on Monday - before the deployment, certainly. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 01:33, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

To clarify: I've not been promised that the fix they're working on now will completely solve every single permutation of this problem. But we can expect a significant improvement, even if it might fall short of 100%. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 22:37, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Typing some wikitext (including ']') now causes a warning to appear where the save button is. All related bugs closed. Everyone happy now? ;-) John Vandenberg 03:58, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Apparently not. But they're working on it. Ignatzmice•talk 04:13, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

The warning clearly isn't sufficient (and even so, very frustrating to get this kind of thing after you have finished editing). New nowiki errors are being created constantly, forcing editors to use the old "edit source" anyway (or giving up in frustration or incomprehension). While a warning is better than no warning, I would like to hear from the devs (or other WMF people) whether they are at least considering disabling the "nowiki" addition for double square brackets; this would solve the vast, vast majority of errors, with very few false positives (the wanted additions of nowiki seem to be nearly always around pipe signs, and occasionally for single square brackets or other markup). Fram (talk) 12:33, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Template {{tl}} invisible in VE editscreen

When template {{tl}} is used, it does not show in the VE edit screen (or possibly whitespace?). Its sister template {{tlx}} shows correct. Demo: User:DePiep/VEdemo VE: -DePiep (talk) 21:22, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Reported. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 23:18, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Removal before a footnote alters downkey effect

In VE, when I remove any text before (to the left of) a reference footnote, and then press ↓, the cursor jumps to the bottom of the page. Expected behaviour is: cursor moves to the line below. Example scheme (not working here):

1. Initial text: Some statement. Bad text..

2. Delete " Bad text." in VE (I used backspace from the period leftwards). Now

When the cursor sits at: Some statement.|.

3. Pres ↓. Cursor jumps to bottom of page.

(Try page: Hydrogen has many footnotes -- just don't save of course). -DePiep (talk) 00:56, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Update (silly me): It disfunctions without the deletion. Just place the cursor next to a fotnote. Adding: key ↑ has similar effect (upward). -DePiep (talk) 05:38, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

@DePiep: what browser and version of the browser were you using ? I don't see this problem on Safari 6. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 08:17, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Firefox 21.0 atop WinXP. -DePiep (talk) 08:20, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Confirmed in FF 20 on MountainLion. Reported —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 08:36, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Just noting, its not fixed yet. John Vandenberg 05:06, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Keyboard shortcut fail

The keyboard shortcut for the old Edit was Alt-Shift-E. That seemed to have been assigned for Edit Source, to maintain the same key shortcut as the old Edit, but that now seems changed out. The hint over the Edit Source link indicates "<accesskey-ca-editsource>", whatever sort of keyboard shortcut combination that is supposed to represent. This is causing a problem by reducing efficiency of editing. Dl2000 (talk) 04:07, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

tracked —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 08:26, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

One simple typo, nine steps to correct it

To correct one simple typo (change "lable" to "label"), it took me nine steps in "Edit Source" instead of one in "Edit":

• Click on the infobox
• Click on the "transclusion" icon
• Click on "Lable"
• Ctrl-C the text in the parameter
• Click "remove parameter"
• Type "Label"
• Enter
• Ctrl-V to readd the parameter text
• Apply changes

How is this an improvement? Why isn't there at least a "change parameter name" option to eliminate a few of those steps? There are (at least) three other parameters with a typo in that same infobox, which would take me another 18 steps to correct (the first two and last one only need to be done once, hurrah). Fram (talk) 08:12, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

I know that complex templates are a pain right now. When the TemplateData gets added (and processed: the system's got a huge stack of these jobs to process), you won't have any need to add them manually at all, which will dramatically reduce the likelihood of anyone introducing typos, non-existent parameters, or similar problems. I think you can expect this problem to be one that essentially solves itself before long. In between now and then, I agree that it's clunky. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 11:53, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Just checked Misplaced Pages:VisualEditor/TemplateData, and the example there isn't convincing at all, since the bottom image (the one with TemplateData) is essentially largely what I saw when trying to correct the errors. I'll reserve judgment on whether this will really improve things until the moment that it is supposed to be live. Fram (talk) 12:21, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Headers inside wikitables

I've recreated a problem another editor had here, to be sure that it's VE related. While I wasn't editing the wikitables at all, the VE decided that the headers that were inside the wikitables should be duplicated, turning something that worked allright into a mess. Fram (talk) 11:19, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Something similar appears to have happened here. —Bruce1ee 12:05, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm not convinced that bog-for-bug compatibility is the goal. If you want to display five tables separated by section headings, then I it is reasonable enough for you to create five tables separated by section headings, not one table that uses section headings to break it up. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 13:55, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

But why did VE decide to move them outside the tables? Can you give some examples, some actual edits, where this behaviour has improved the article? I haven't seen any, but despite looking at many VE edits, I haven't seen (or corrected) them all. If there are no reasonable situations where this VE behaviour actually improves the article, then the functionality should be removed (altered), no matter how you think about the way these wikitables are built. It worked, after VE it doesn't work, so at least there has to be a convincing reason why VE does this, i.e. situations (preferably reasonably common situations) where this VE action is truly desirable and an improvement. Fram (talk) 14:12, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

They're working on it. As I understand it, wikicode gets translated into HTML to display the article on your screen when you read it (of course) and when you're using VisualEditor. If the HTML is seriously broken (e.g., in the Criss article), then VisualEditor tries to repair it so that it can display it properly. Usually, this means closing tables that are missing the close-table code. In this instance, it was clearly trying to fix the busted wikicode for the tables, but failed.

Do you know if this "style" used in other articles? It doesn't make sense to code around an improper format used in a single article: the article should just get fixed to use the normal wikicode for displaying five tables. But if this is common, then I could suggest it be considered. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 14:25, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Considering that it was also used in the article Bruce1ee linked to above in this section, it seems unlikely that the only two articles to use this format have been edited with VE just recently. Fram (talk) 14:35, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

It's not an improper format. A table cell is a td element, which may contain any flow content. A heading element may appear where flow content is expected. Therefore, tables may contain section headings. --Redrose64 (talk) 15:14, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

In Fram's example, they're using section headings to split one table into five. This isn't one table that happens to contain five section headings; it's five separate tables created out of the code for one table. It seems to me that if you want five tables to appear on a page, then you should actually make five tables, i.e., put five {| |} pairs on the page, rather than putting the wikicode for one large table on the page and using section headings to split that table into five separate tables (which is what happens when Mediawiki tries to turn this "one" table into HTML). Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 20:36, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Neither Redrose64's nor Whatamidoing's analysis here is correct. In revision 562814845, and for that matter in revision 560634872, there are clearly five tables, but the headings are not within table cells (they are effectively within the <table> tag). The wikitext is generating improperly nested HTML in that it has the section headings are not within table cells, and Tidy winds up moving them above the tables. But VisualEditor's mangling of the wikitext is in no way appropriate behavior. While round-tripping the badly nested wikitext may not be feasible or desired, at the very least it should have moved rather than duplicated the headers and should have inserted linebreaks between the newly-inserted headers and the "{|" to start the tables. Anomie⚔ 23:58, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

You're right, I wasn't looking carefully. The heading elements were indeed between the {| and the |- and so were interposed between the table element and the first tr element. Most browsers will eject these out of the table: the table element may only directly enclose a small selection of other elements; these include the tr element, which may itself only enclose td and th elements, so the minimum hierarchy to get a heading inside a table and still be valid HTML is <table><tr><td><h3>...</h3></td></tr></table> --Redrose64 (talk) 08:35, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Adds ./ inside square brackets

I have seen this once or twice on other edits as well, so it seems to be a VE error: here in four cases "./" is added at the front of a wikilink, which then no longer works. In each case, it is a link with a disambiguator and a pipe in (note that VE also adds an underscore, which is not an error but unnecessary anyway). Fram (talk) 07:59, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

here is another example of the same, again with a piped link with disambiguator. Fram (talk) 08:03, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Yep, a firefox 13/14 problem; we've temporarily blacklisted those browsers. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 13:12, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll report back if I find any new instances of this problem. Fram (talk) 13:14, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Random shit with tables

This may be related to the persondata duplication error, and/or the section headers in tables errors, or not, but I've seen too often that VE adds blocks of code that are clearly not wanted and not added by the editor, like here. No idea what causes it yet, but worth being investigated. Fram (talk) 08:00, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Another example: . Fram (talk) 08:46, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

A rather extreme one: . Fram (talk) 12:06, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

The only thread I see in common with these is that all of them involve tables (including infoboxes that get rendered as tables). Do you think it might be related to Template:Bugzilla? Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 19:41, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Might be, I don't see a pattern yet. I've also noticed more infoboxes being removed than I would consider to be normal, but it is hard to blame this on VE with any certainty, it may be that editors do it on purpose. I'll post more examples when I find them (although I'm getting rather tired of spending my days chasing and reverting VE errors). Fram (talk) 08:06, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Moving images

In VE, you can easily move images. You don't have much control of where you place it though, which results in the placement of images in the middle of headers, words, ... E.g. things like this should be avoided by the software. Fram (talk) 13:39, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

To be fair, the Wikitext editor allows images to be placed mid-sentence... that is, I can't find evidence of VE being used to make this edit. --Redrose64 (talk) 16:36, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it is allowed with the old editor as well, but you had to do it on purpose. Now, you can move images to the middle of words without any intention of doing this, just wanting to move an image between section is very hard. No idea why a manual move is allowed but no means are given to accurately position it. Fram (talk) 07:45, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Not just moving images, also inserting new ones; . Fram (talk) 12:24, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Infobox mangling

It appears that VisualEditor "scrunches" the template code in infoboxes so that instead of being one line per paramater, it puts everything on one line; see here for an example. While this doesn't change how the infobox displays (fortunatly), it makes it very ugly and hard to edit in the source and really shouldn't be doing this. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 00:27, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

It appears only editing the infobox itself causes this - simply editing the page in VisualEditor seems not to, as evidenced by this VE diff. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 00:51, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

It could potentially change how the infobox displays, if it contains something where newlines are critical - such as a bulleted list, as used in the |guests= parameter of {{Infobox Doctor Who episode}} - e.g. An Unearthly Child. --Redrose64 (talk) 06:11, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Is this something that you'd like to have reported as a bug, requested enhancement, or whatever you want to call it? If so, I think you might want to copy this to WP:VisualEditor/Feedback (the more common place for bug reports). Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 21:42, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

This was a temporary regression (See Template:Bug). The most common case has already been fixed and deployed. In any case, as The Bushranger noted, this should only affect tempaltes that are edited. Ssastry (talk) 22:55, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Italicizing wikilinks

I noticed this a lot recently, but somehow didn't realize that it was VE-related as well. Not really a bug, but suboptimal editing nevertheless: when people select wikilinked text and italicize it, VE doesn't put quotes around the square brackets but creates a piped link where the part after the pipe is the same as the part before the pipe, but with added double quotes. This works, but it seems to be suboptimal use of the possibilities of wiki-markup, and creating many unnecessary piped links. Examples of the result of this can be seen here. Fram (talk) 13:52, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

I can reproduce that, and IMO that is a bug as it is emitting wikitext that is going to annoy the shit out of the wikignomes and page curators, and will result in bots being created to clean up after VE contributors (and the bots will get it wrong and further annoy the crap out of the ... etc etc). John Vandenberg 04:42, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Bug filed, thanks. Jalexander--WMF 04:59, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

VE totally screwing up

A section for things that go rather clearly wrong, but which don't match a clear pattern or existing section :-)

• turns paragraphs into headers after the removal of an image Fram (talk) 13:56, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
• added a ton of extraneous HTML markup in a bunch of references. All the user was trying to do was do a minor copyedit, and it added over 1.5K unnecessary spaces and quotes. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 02:50, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

I'll also look into these, of course. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 13:38, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

The references thing is known and tracked, but has been marked as a duplicate of a supposedly fixed bug... Ignatzmice•talk 14:01, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi there, the first actually seems something an user can trigger (Azatoth made a vid @ Youtube about it, GConsjI9098), so I would not call that a bug. The second looks familiar, will do my best to find out why it still happens. --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 14:07, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

• here the defaultsort and categories are suddenly moved to the middle of the article, inside a table (VE even adds a curly bracket after the cats). Since this is a VisualEditor edit, I don't think the human editor has the possibility of doing this manually or on purpose, and it looks like a VE error. Never seen this one before though. Fram (talk) 12:59, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

• Another example of a VE edit totally ruining the article, apparently without the human editor meaning to do this at all; . No idea what happened here, but suddenly adding 21K of unwanted code did rarely happen in the old editor...

Punctuation after wikilinks

When you try to add a comma (or other punctuation) immediately after a wikilink, VE adds the comma inside the wikilink and creates a piped link: . While there are ways around this, it seems that this is the default behaviour on normal editing. Can this be avoided? A comma, semicolon, colon, ... will very rarely be the final part of a wikilink and will usually be intended to be outside the link (this may be less clear for exclamation marks, question marks and points). Fram (talk) 12:39, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Other example: Fram (talk) 12:50, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi there, I saw this myself today, will definitely look it up later. Thank you! --Elitre (WMF) (talk) 13:33, 16 July 2013 (UTC) PS. I might have missed it, but is there a specific reason for you not writing on VE's feedback page instead? :)

This is more public and seems to have more direct participation. Some of the problems I raised ere (like the missing VE edit tags) turned out not to be VE related after all and got picked up immediately. Fram (talk) 08:08, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Please explain before I'm 50

Before I reach my 50k'th edit cookie, can someone explain why this VE is pushed so hard upon to me? For example when I spend time on TemplateData (UglyWord#1), it does not respond and I cannot find a communication page. -DePiep (talk) 23:35, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Category:Musical theatre articles missing an image in infobox

When Template:Infobox musical is present the above category is automatically added. This is ok for article space but its also adding the cat to user space and Article for creations pages. Is there a technical way to make it only appear in article space.Blethering Scot 20:13, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, you can check the namespace. One way to do so is {{Namespace detect}}. Another, specific to the article space, is {{#if:{{NAMESPACE}}||]}}. However, I would personally recommend {{main other}}, which does exactly what you want (see the second example!). πr (t • c) 21:13, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, i tried it but to be honest i have no idea what I'm doing so wouldn't work. Im assuming you meant on the infobox rather than the cat.Blethering Scot 21:41, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

The {{main other}} should be wrapped around the category, but placed inside the infobox template code. Here's one I made earlier. --Redrose64 (talk) 22:02, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks how often does it usually take for them to be removed from the category.Blethering Scot 21:55, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

It depends on the job queue. That's currently showing zero, which occurs so rarely that I suspect that there is some problem with generating the figure. --Redrose64 (talk) 22:22, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

There still showing, have i done it wrong or is the job queue extremely long.Blethering Scot 22:28, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

It's clearly a problem, one that I've noticed elsewhere. I've filed bugzilla:51163. --Redrose64 (talk) 10:05, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Redrose64, as Nikerabbit says the number in API stats is unreliable. As already documented on Help:Job queue, you can used this graph which uses a maintenance script and should be reliable: . I do see a 5k spike about the time of your edit, may be it. --Nemo 10:13, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Ignoring that surely 14 days isnt normal at all for it to go through. Is there anything that can be done to make it do so for instance maybe removing and re making the edit.Blethering Scot 16:26, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Visual Editor uptake: really just 2.9%?

I've just taken a look at the the last 10,0005,000 edits to the Article namespace, excluding bots and anons. Only 145 (1.45%2.9%) were made using the Visual Editor. My way of calculating this was to look for the string "Tag: VisualEditor" in the listings.

Is my method wrong? My maths? Or is uptake really so low? I'm flabbergasted because, if this is correct, this amounts to a near total rejection of the Visual Editor. --RA (✍) 22:45, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

No IE and Opera support... mabdul 22:55, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't think so. IE only accounts for 18% of hits to the WikiMedia servers. Opera only 2.6%. (stats). Misplaced Pages may differ, but not that much. Even across all sites in the US, IE only accounts for ~30%.

Is my method right? --RA (✍) 23:09, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Also, there is no support for back-level browsers. Also, there is no Visual Editor interface for Misplaced Pages space pages or talk pages. Also, existing users who are familiar with Wiki markup may just continue to use it, especially if they know that Visual Editor has bugs. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:12, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

What do you mean by "back-level browsers"?

I excluded all namespaces except Article. The stats are for edits to the Article namespace only. --RA (✍) 23:15, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

By back-level browsers, I mean versions of supported browsers where the browser version is not supported, such as Firefox 12, where the version is blacklisted because the version doesn't have features that Visual Editor requires. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:04, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Remember those are not only for all wikimedia projects but they are also stats for page views not for edits so the stats could vary. For starters, it's resonable to expect editors use mobile browsers less. i'm currently using a tablet, an iPad but I can say it's rather annoying at times and there's no way I'd use it for major article edits. And as for a phone? Forgot it. The share is only about 20% in those figures but it still pushes IE up in genera. lI don't particularly know of any reason why IE is likely to be preferred by editors, more likely the opposite but ultimately the figures are fuzzy. And all these (including stuff below like automated edits) add up to the actual usage by editors not being that surprising. And considering the target of the editor, perhaps not bad. Nil Einne (talk) 18:17, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I make it at 332 out of the last 5000 edits (6.6%). A similar probe a bit more than 24 hours ago had it as 11%, but that difference might have reflected a rush of early testing. As to why your number is different, I don't believe anyone can actually receive 10000 entries from recent changes. Admin and bot accounts can get 5000 entries at a time. It used to be that normal accounts had an even lower limit (though I don't remember what that limit was and haven't tested it recently). However, if you try to generate such a list look at the header, which says "Show last ... changes". If you request more than the limit, the limit value will be placed there. Dragons flight (talk) 23:16, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the tip. Yes, I'm limited to 5,000. But I still only see ~145 (146 now). Which is still just 2.9%

When did you do your test? Are you clicking the link above and searching for "Tag: VisualEditor"? --RA (✍) 23:26, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm writing a script to do this automagically, if y'all can wait just a sec. I'm sure the WMF devs are doing something like this too (and probably in a much more hi-tech way)...right? Theopolisme (talk) 23:39, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

I just did the test and got 375/5000 = 7.1% of edits done with VisualEditor (filter by tag "visualeditor") --Patrick87 (talk) 23:40, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

I got 3.36% out of 10,000 most recent edits using the API (here's how). I'll run it over a larger sample space momentarily. Theopolisme (talk) 23:49, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Theopolisme. You'll need to filter by name space (only article), remove anons (not rolled out yet) and bots (don't count). I suspect when you do, the manual figure of 6—7% will be right. Still, wow. That's over 90% of people not using it. . --RA (✍) 23:55, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Gotcha. About to run with those parameters. Theopolisme (talk) 00:02, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

My post on this topic from July 3rd is here: Misplaced Pages:VisualEditor/Feedback/Archive 2013 07#Note on usage. It also discusses the fact the new(ish) user accounts are far more likely to use the Visual Editor than experienced accounts. (Whether because they like it or because they don't know any other way is largely impossible to know.) Dragons flight (talk) 00:09, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

"VisualEditor was used in 671 out of 10,000 most recent mainspace non-anon, non-bot edits, or 6.71%." Theopolisme (talk) 00:16, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

and here's the source code Theopolisme (talk) 00:17, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Theopolisme. Sorry to be a pain, but does that exclude bots? Thanks for doing this. — Rannpháirtí anaithnid (00:19, 6 July 2013 (UTC)) — (continues after insertion below)

You're not a pain, I just skipped right over what you said...sorry! I've updated the above stats. Theopolisme (talk) 00:32, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Dragon, very interesting. The pattern is to be expected but the numbers are surprising (to me anyway). Your figures from earlier would also suggest usage is dropping. I wonder if it is dropping in both user groups. IP usage next week will also be very interesting. Given what we are seeing here, I'm not sure what to expect.

"...largely impossible to know..." No it's not. You can contact them and ask. --RA (✍) 00:19, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Updating for this morning, I see 6.4% of non-anon, non-bot article edits being made with VE. Following up on earlier stats, it appears that the uptake among editors with user pages (i.e. "experienced" editors) is 3.8% of article edits and the uptake for users without user pages (i.e. "newish" editors) is 19% of article edits. So both subgroups have declined by about a third since I first measured this on July 3rd. Regarding why new editors are using it more, I meant that it was impossible to know from the presently observable bulk statistics whether newish editors actively prefer VE or simply didn't know of other options. Of course if you want to go out and conduct a survey of new editors, then be my guest. Dragons flight (talk) 17:33, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

The statistics don't exclude edit made with AWB, Twinkle, Huggle and such like. That could increase the percentage a bit. -- John of Reading (talk) 11:14, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes. Is there a reliable way we can determine those kinds of edit? --RA (✍) 13:50, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Only by blacklisting, in a sense, edits with edit summaries that contain specific strings of characters (i.e., "HG" or "TW"). Even then it can't perfectly distinguish between automated and manual (because users have the capability to change edit summaries). TParis, doesn't X!'s edit counter tool include a list of these--and if so, could you pass it on to me? Theopolisme (talk) 13:55, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I ran it while blacklisting , and got "VisualEditor was tagged in 864 out of 10000 edits, or 8.64%". Not perfect, but more accurate. Theopolisme (talk) 14:08, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure it is fair to exclude some of the semi-auto tools. If the user is making a choice to use a tool that they like better than VE, then personally I'd tend to still count that as a failure to adopt VE. If VE provided automation and tools that were preferred, then (at least in principle) some users would turn away from the other existing tools and switch to VE. (Of course, that argument is largely hypothetical at this point since VE isn't really equipped to replace any of the semi-auto tools yet.) Dragons flight (talk) 17:41, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

A reason it may be fairer to count VE edits against only manual edits is because we would then just be comparing the tool users prefer when making manual edits. i.e. ratio of Edit : EditSource edits. --RA (✍) 10:59, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

When do you measure, after everyone has had experience and can judge, or while everyone is experimenting and then maybe giving up? I've tried twice now to correct links using the 'vise'. Depending on how you are counting, you'll see two unsuccessful tries at correcting 'Böotes' to 'Boötes'. I then gave up and used the direct method, when reviewing showed the vise's result of 'Böotes|Boötes|Boötes'. I would worry that attempts to make something unready work will be counted as 'enthusiasm' - "hey, they use the vise twice as much as direct editing!" Shenme (talk) 18:32, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

That makes me wonder how many VE edits were reverted. Is there a way to figure that out? I think it might also be interesting to see how many people disabled it. Last I heard it was over 500 but that was less than 24 hours after release. Its good to know that 8.6% of the edits were done with VE but I think its also important to see if they were immediately reverted due to errors. Kumioko (talk) 23:23, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

AIUI there is a huge problem with the premise that this entire topic is based on. The "Visual editor" tag is not added to the edit summaries of all edits that used VE - it is only added to those edits that the wizard "thinks" may have an errors caused by bugs in VE. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 11:10, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

No Doger67, you're wrong. The tag you have in mind is called "visualeditor-needcheck" and is applied in addition in this case. --Patrick87 (talk) 12:49, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Got it, thanks. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 12:58, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

We'll need to catch that tag too. --RA (✍) 13:29, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

All the edits with visualeditor-needcheck are also tagged with visualeditor.--Salix (talk): 14:33, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

On the back of this thread, I've been bold and added some research/monitoring tasks around the Visual Editor to the Misplaced Pages:User Advocacy effort page. Please comment on these, if you can. If folk here would be willing to add their skills to the group, please add your name here. There is also an invitation to contribute to a brainstorming discussion on the effort. Thanks, --RA (✍) 13:29, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Expect a large increase as soon as VE is enabled on IE8, 9 & 10. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 13:35, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

We could get an estimate from Wikimedia Traffic Analysis Report - Browsers.

Browsers, non mobile	All requests		Html pages
Chrome	77,011 M	35.23%	6,889 M	30.88%
MSIE	36,362 M	16.64%	3,834 M	17.19%
Firefox	28,901 M	13.22%	2,775 M	12.44%
Mozilla	9,708 M	4.44%	917 M	4.11%
Opera	5,266 M	2.41%	671 M	3.01%
Safari	4,783 M	2.19%	670 M	3.00%
Tablets	11,658 M	5.31%	916 M	4.08%
Phones	36,190 M	16.5%	3,234 M	14.4%

taking the Html pages %, and assuming its really just Chrome and Firefox who currently could use VE thats 43% of posible edits, bring MSIE in adds 17%. So might expect maybe 50% more edits with VE. Its still not going to get that much uptake.--Salix (talk): 14:33, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Additionally, those figures combine views and edits. I suspect (without evidence) that editors (as opposed to viewers) are skewed towards non-IE browsers (amongst others). There will also be other difference, for example you could effectively knock out phones (14%) from editor stats. --RA (✍) 15:12, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Although the numbers don't be high, but users who disabled JS for any reasons (e.g. screen-readers, paranoia, etc.) don't get VE, too. mabdul 16:53, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Updating to now, I see 8.9% of non-anon, non-bot article edits being made with VE (up from 6.4% end of last week). Whether a statistical fluctuation or the start of an actual trend, I don't know, but it is the first time since I started checking this where the fraction of VE edits has showed a sizable increase from a prior measurement. Dragons flight (talk) 20:59, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I enjoy getting these updates of usage trends. Perhaps there could be a subpage of Misplaced Pages:VisualEditor that documents this information? Or maybe just somewhere in someone's userspace. Killiondude (talk) 21:08, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I've created a subpage of Misplaced Pages:User_Advocacy/VisualEditor with proposed research questions. Maybe there? --RA (✍) 07:32, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

...and I'm getting "VisualEditor was tagged in 979 out of 10000 edits, or 9.79%" when I exclude automated edits as well. Theopolisme (talk)

This morning, I count 8.4% of non-anon, non-bot article edits being made with VE. Still higher than the end of last week. Dragons flight (talk) 14:54, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Another day later, I count 10.4% of non-anon, non-bot article edits being made with VE. Dragons flight (talk) 16:16, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

11.03% excluding automated edits. Could we store this data in a table somewhere (and ideally graph it)? Theopolisme (talk) 16:20, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Updating again in order to add numbers by subsample. Right now, I get 9.0% of non-bot, non-anon article edits coming from VE. In addition, "newish" accounts (those without user pages) are making 22% of their article space edits with VE. "Experienced" accounts (those with user pages) are making 4.5% of their article edits with VE. That newish accounts are about 5 times as likely to use VE to edit articles has remained fairly consistent since launch. Dragons flight (talk) 19:17, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Another day, another stat: 8.3%. Incidentally, these stats seem to bounce around a bit, probably because 5000 non-bot, non-anon edits (representing about 90 minutes of real time) isn't really a long enough baseline to avoid quirky fluctuations (such as the occasional editor who is really excited by VE). At some point I'd like to write a tool to study this more systematically. Dragons flight (talk) 17:05, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Some stats are at http://ee-dashboard.wmflabs.org/graphs/enwiki_ve_hourly_perc_by_user_type (from File:WMF Monthly Metrics Meeting July 11, 2013.webm). --Nemo 18:20, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

That's awesome, thanks Nemo! (@Dragons flight:) Theopolisme (talk) 19:00, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Controlling order of reflist

Don't see where else to post this. Consider this:

According to Smith<ref name=Smith2010/> it's true, but Jones<ref name=Jones2009/> says it's false.
{{Reflist|refs=
{{refn|name=Jones2009|Jones, J. (2009) ''The truth'' }}
{{refn|name=Smith2010|Smith, S. (2010) ''Jones lies''}}
}}

which yields:

According to Smith it's true, but Jones says it's false.

1. Smith, S. (2010) Jones lies
2. Jones, J. (2009) The truth

As usual, entries in the reflist appear in the order first cited in the text. But I want them in the order in which I listed them in the {{Reflist|refs = section (in this case, alphabetical order, because the Reflist is really going to be a bibliography). Is there some way of doing that (perhaps some special syntax to Reflist)?

Thanks! EEng (talk) 21:24, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Apart from actually making it a bibliography and using templates from the {{sfn}} family, no. Matma Rex talk 21:26, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't understand. It is a bibliography, but I want to label the entries A,B,C or whatever, and refer to them using linked superscripts in the article text, via a <ref>-type syntax. This seems a natural thing to want to do. Are you saying sfn would help with that? EEng (talk) 21:48, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

As an alternative (which would allow a disgusting hack on this), is there some syntax for <ref name=Jones2010/> that would cause only this one callout to Jones2010 to not have a backlink next to the Jones2010 entry in the reflist? (It is recognized I am grasping at straws here.) EEng (talk) 21:52, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Put a Sources section of titles, then {sfn} each author/year link: Under the References section, put a "===Sources===" subsection with book titles in a bullet list of {cite_book} with ref=harv or such. Then use Template:Sfn in the upper text, to link each book author/year into the Sources list. -Wikid77 (talk) 21:56, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Look at Today's Featured Article: Dodo. It has numbered short cites (created by template) and then an alphabetized bibliography (called "sources" in this case). That is the way issues like this are usually handled where you want both the links but also a specific layout of sources. Dragons flight (talk) 21:59, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm familiar with these techniques, but as mentioned I want the article text to refer to the sources using e.g. (and here I'm using the </nowiki></nowiki> syntax too) not e.g. (Jones 2010). So the entries in the Sources list need to be assigned A,B,C etc. codes (I'd be happy to do that manually, but it's a nightmare if something's added to or dropped from the list -- everything shifts), and I'd like backlinks from the sources entries to the callouts in the main text. The ref machinery is perfect for this, except for the order in which the reflist comes out. See now? EEng (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:26, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Can you point to an article where that style is already in use? If so, we'll explain how it's done.

Dodo, btw, uses almost-pure Shortened footnotes. I say "almost" because it's throwing about 6 big red errors for me. --Redrose64 (talk) 22:28, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

1. The first part of your questions concerns List-defined references, and as I wrote on that help page: "The references will appear numbered in the order that they are referred to in the content, regardless of how they are ordered within the reference list."

2. There is no way to suppress a footnote backlink. I have a bug report in for that, but it has gone nowhere.

3. The Shortened footnotes help page has examples of articles with good use.

4. As noted at List-defined references, you can use {{r}} to include the in-text citation with a page number. It only supports the default footnote labels, but we could do a variant.

--  Gadget850 02:41, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

None of this answers my question/request. I hope you will forgive my taking the liberty of numbering your points above for reference.

1. Obviously I know that "The references will appear numbered in the order that they are referred to in the content, regardless of how they are ordered within the reference list." -- I said so in my opening post. (I've put that in bold now to make that even more obvious.)

2. In the absence of a useful outcome on point 1., suppressing one backlink would help in a hack in mind for getting something similar to what I really want. But looks like I shouldn't hold my breath.

3. I already explained what I'm trying to do, and it's nothing like sfn.

4. Ditto.

I repeat: I don't need it explained to me how reflists are ordered now, by default -- I know that. My question was whether there's some syntax or trick to change the order; or (implicitly) in the alternative, I was hoping someone would be inspired to add such a function, or tell me where to go to request that this be done. So can someone please answer that question, instead of telling me how to do things other than that which I came here to learn how to do??? In desperation I've implemented a painful hack demonstrating how such a feature might be applied (ignore the entries in the References section -- they're meant to be migrated to other sections).

EEng (talk) 03:44, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

If you use (or wish to use) any form of referencing which involves <ref>...</ref> and <references /> (whether directly or hidden inside templates like {{sfn}} or {{reflist}}) the answer is

No, the order that they are listed is determined by their order in the wikitext, and cannot be changed; it follows that the order that that they are numbered is determined by the order that they are listed.

If you want some other ordering you cannot use <ref>...</ref> and <references /> but must use a custom method - which will be complicated - or one of the older systems from about eight years ago which required every ref to be hand-numbered. See {{ref}}, {{note}}, {{ref label}}, and {{note label}}. --Redrose64 (talk) 07:30, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Given that it's perfectly natural to want the reflist entries to appear in some useful (instead of haphazard) order, I'm puzzled as to why the possibility of adding such a feature to <ref>...</ref> and <references /> is being ignored. Where would I go to make such a request? EEng (talk) 11:51, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Which is the Template:Fnote3 system. --  Gadget850 10:46, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Sounds like that may have to be the interim stopgap. EEng (talk) 11:51, 10 July 2013 (UTC) I spoke to soon. Only an insane person would consider using Template:Fnote3. EEng (talk) 13:33, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

This almost works, except for a spurious backlink:

According to Smith it's true, but Jones says it's false.

1. ^ Jones, J. (2009) The truth
2. Smith, S. (2010) Jones lies

—Emil J. 12:13, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

But you've not used {{ref}}/{{note}} at all - you've used almost exactly the same code as EEng did in the original post, with two differences: (i) you've quoted the ref names (which will not make any difference); (ii) you've added <span style="display:none"><ref name="Jones2009"/></span> which is what's causing that "spurious backlink". --Redrose64 (talk) 12:36, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Who cares whether he used {{ref}}/{{note}}? What does that have to do with anything? The <span style="display:none"><ref name="Jones2009"/></span> he added forces the Jones ref to come first, which is something like what I was looking for. As it happens I had already thought of a similar idea, as seen in the mockup I linked a bit earlier ( -- open the source for editing and look at the shamefaced comment at the very beginning). It's why I asked (somewhere above) for a way to suppress a single selected backlink. (Thanks, EmilJ, for trying to help.)

Frankly I'd be willing to live with the spurious backlink if that's the best we can do.

EEng (talk) 13:19, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

If that's your attitude, who cares that you want to use some system that is different from the Misplaced Pages norm? Three times I responded to a plea for help: but have been rejected once too often. I'm done helping here. Just don't blame me if somebody tidies up that spurious backlink. --Redrose64 (talk) 14:07, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Look, all I asked is (1) if there's a way to control the order of the reflist and (2) failing that, where I'd go to make a request that such a feature be added. Can you please just answer that? EEng (talk) 15:25, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

you may want to look into mw:Extension:Cite and it's talk page. peace - קיפודנחש (aka kipod) (talk) 16:04, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! I'll want to look around there and learn what I can before posting, so it may a while. EEng (talk) 18:01, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Years back, I offered via WP:Bugzilla a couple of versions of an enhancement to Wikimedia:Extension:Cite which would have supported this. However, the internals of my suggested changes were invalidated by WM:Cite featurization which bypassed WP:Bugzilla before completion of consideration and the suggestions have since been withdrawn. As I recall without digging for details, my changes would have supported the optional placement of the WP:LDR list early in the article, invisibly in the rendered wikitext, and without impacting the footnote numbering. This had the effect of forcing refs in that list to the head of the numbered footnotes and ordering them as they were manually ordered there. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 23:06, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

It's good to hear from a third editor (EmilJ and kipod being the other two) who takes the time to understand what's being asked. If you look at EmilJ's code above, and my comments at the very start here , you'll see that we've all been thinking along the same lines. Nasty hack though this technique I actually feel its advantages outweigh its drawbacks and I'd like to take it live in the article, with the hope that someday a purpose-built facility will become available to make the hack unnecessary. There's only one other editor at Talk:Phineas Gage who's willing to engage this kind of technical issue and I'd be most happy if you'd look over the implementation (in my sandbox) in detail and explore the question with us. I feel that remedying the random order of reflist entries is an important goal for the reader's sake, and well worth any ugliness we editors see in the source. Thanks. EEng (talk) 03:02, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

New Single User Login system, login success page going away

This info will go out with the latest edition of Tech News, but I wanted to drop a special notice that platform engineering is deploying a revamped version of the unified login system. The current goal is to deploy this Thursday, July 11th, barring any last minute hiccups. This will vastly improve the long term stability and security of our cross-wiki authentication system, in addition to heading off impending breakage when the next version of Firefox is released. Among other things, the most visible change will be that you will no longer see a special "Login successful" landing page, and instead you will be automatically redirected back to where you were before login (if the system doesn't know where you were, you'll just go to the Main Page). There is more detail in this mailing list announcement. Thanks, Steven Walling (WMF) • talk 22:48, 9 July 2013‎ (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up, Steven. 64.40.54.109 (talk) 03:58, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

@Steven (WMF): Will this SUL update mean that we get auto-logged into "any public WMF wiki" that aren't currently doing so properly, eg Outreach and Wikimania? I assume so, but am not sure if there are any other meanings for how it relates to users. Thanks. –Quiddity (talk) 00:50, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi all. Due to us wanting to iron out some last minute things with the experience (especially regarding the GettingStarted extension) we're going to delay the rollout until Monday July 15th (this coming Monday). We really want to make everyone's first experience with the new login go smoothly, so we think the delay is worth it. Thanks for your understanding! Greg (WMF) (talk) 16:32, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the update. And we like hesitations/delays in roll-outs! ;) Slow and steady wins the race. –Quiddity (talk) 22:24, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Update: This is now live. Steven Walling (WMF) • talk 21:12, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

*magic* Works like a charm; great work Steven, Greg, and team! :) While perhaps this isn't quite as noticeable as the Visual Editor or Flow, it's still very much appreciated. Theopolisme (talk) 21:17, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

• Wow, works great! Speeds up login a lot and being quickly and directly brought to the page last shown is what most people probably want after login.

There's one downside: New users might not realize that SUL exists and that they are actually logged in across all Wikimedia projects! Will you provide newbies with the relevant information somewhere so they are aware of unified login? --Patrick87 (talk) 22:22, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Seems like I spoke a bit too fast. Just came back to see I was not logged in longer on Commons and MediaWiki. Germand and English Misplaced Pages worked, though. Let's see if this sorts out itself or if there is a real problem somewhere... --Patrick87 (talk) 23:02, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

• This system is buggy. I own the SUL account "Stefan2", but other people own my username locally on Commons and two language editions of Misplaced Pages, and the accounts on those three projects are not attached to SUL (see sulutil:Stefan2). If I go to Commons, the new SUL system partially logs me in to the local Stefan2 account on Commons: Commons:Special:Preferences tells that I'm not logged in, but the links at the top say that I'm logged in. The user name, Special:Contributions link and "log out" links are all there. Also, the interface is partially in English, partially in German. I'm guessing that the one who set the interface to German was the guy who owns the user name on Commons. I don't know whether I can access any private data other than the language setting, and I don't know whether any edits would be attributed to my IP address or to Commons:User:Stefan2. In any case, things seem to be wrong, and there may be security issues with this. Screenshot: http://i.imgur.com/TvwRbSE.png --Stefan2 (talk) 11:28, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
  • I have notified some folks who will be able to deal with this. This should not happen indeed. Thanks for your restraint. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 12:10, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
    • Thanks for the report! It turns out there's no security issue here, and only minimal data leakage. There's a script involved with the new SUL that, if you visit a wiki while logged out, checks against login.wikimedia.org to see whether you're logged in centrally. And if so, that script sets the necessary cookies and updates the #p-personal bar to reflect your logged-in status. The bug here is that that script wasn't checking if the local account was unattached, so it was setting the cookies (which would be ignored) and replacing p-personal even in a situation like Stefan2's. As far as everything else is concerned you were still not logged in, so anything you did would be done as an IP, and the only data leakage was that you could see that other Stefan2's p-personal bar (and so guess his language setting and see if he has any unread Echo notifications—you couldn't see those notifications, just the fact of their existence).
      We've now patched the bug, and are in the process of deploying the fix to all WMF wikis as I write this. BJorsch (WMF) (talk) 15:51, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
    • Another thanks for the report. The fix has been deployed, so you shouldn't see this behavior any more. Just to ease anxiety, as BJorsch mentioned, the session cookie you were getting would have been useless to actually authenticate to the site, or impersonate the unattached user. However, that did leak the existence of the unattached account and the number of unread echo notifications. I can understand why that would be upsetting to some people, so I do apologize for the oversight. I'll also get a regression test for this added, so we don't let this slip by again. CSteipp (talk) 16:05, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

problem with references: either an unusual (undocumented?) rule, or perhaps a bug

I have run across a minor problem that confounded me until I figured out my blunder. The error message that resulted was not very helpful. I wasn't sure where to write up the problem, and settled on the VP.

Here is a way to demonstrate the problem. Just include a named reference, such as ipsum, improperly coded the way you would code an attempt to invoke a named reference: e.g., <ref name=ipsum/>, but instead of having that code appear within the body of the article itself (where it would be valid), place it in the set of list-defined references. This causes all the valid references to ipsum to fail to be recognized, and furthermore it causes an error to appear within the References section:
Cite error: The named reference ipsum was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
Note that this error occurs whether the particular named reference is defined within the main body of the article or down in the reflist as in my illustration below.

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum. Curabitur pretium tincidunt lacus.

1. Cite error: The named reference ipsum was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
2. Cite error: The named reference minim was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
3. Cite error: The named reference duis was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
4. Cite error: The named reference excepteur was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

This was posted elsewhere— I replied and updated the help page. --  Gadget850 12:25, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

New essay wp:1EDITMYTH

Finally, after years of frustration of people claiming Misplaced Pages was mainly written by swarms of newcomers, each adding 1 paragraph and "never" returning, I have written an indepth essay wp:1EDITMYTH:

• WP:Beware myth of WP written by passing strangers - mythbusters needed

I had tried to imagine, in a twisted world, how total strangers could each contribute valuable facts to an encyclopedia, at one point in time, but never have any curiosity to return, and it just didn't make any sense, in any form. The concept was this "Newbietopia" where incoming strangers add most content to WP then mainly leave (not really), while the rest of us veteran editors simply "change category links" year after year, almost never adding content nor creating new major articles (huh?). Then, I learned, some time ago, how Jimbo formerly gave speeches on "Misplaced Pages written by handful of people" as perhaps 550 2,000 editors because "he talked with many of them daily" as the articles were expanded. So, I carefully examined the editor-activity stats (for various years), and concluded "Jimbo was right" (again) in the sense that the vast majority of edits are made, each month, by a relative handful of editors (~10%). As noted in the essay wp:1EDITMYTH, the ratio is a "90/10 Rule" where 90% of edits are made by only 10% of editors (much higher than the 80/20 Rule), and the May 2013 editor-activity stats confirm the 90/10 pattern still applies, even years later. Plus, random checks of IP contributions will reveal similar "veteran IP" editors updating numerous articles. Does anyone know how the "strangers-wrote-WP" myth got started, and why all people do not know that 10% of editors make 90% of all edits (2.8 million per month)? The core power-users make more than just the crucial edits which rewrite long sections of text, add templates, match intricate styles and correct source references; no, instead 90% of all edits each month are made by about 10,500 editors who each change over 20-2500 articles per month, not by passing strangers. Here's the deal: technical improvements to WP software and gadgets, for power users (not newcomers), can help them continue to make the 90% of all edits each month. -Wikid77 (talk) 19:27, 11 July, 22:04, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

See this blog post by Aaron Swartz. Graham87 06:52, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

• User who neglects to login seems like hundreds of passing strangers: Yes, it makes sense how that blog post, from 4 September 2006, misled people into thinking the "passing strangers" were responsible for most content, but the flaw was:

"few of the contributors (2 out of the top 10) are even registered and
most (6 out of the top 10) have made less than 25 edits to the entire site"

But now we know how the non-registered editors (8 of "top 10" contributors) often use rotating, dynamic IP addresses to continue further edits as another "passing stranger" with a different IP address. If a user rotated among only 255 IP numbers, with 1 per week, it would take nearly 5 years to use all 255 IP numbers in the rotation (as if being 255 passing strangers who each quit within 1 week), plus often login with a separate username to reduce use of those 255 numbers. I had forgotten the issue of "6 out of the top 10 have made less than 25 edits to the entire site" and suddenly "stopped" there, never to edit again during 2001-2006, as if that would be realistic of common human actions. I cannot emphasize enough, as a general rule, to beware thinking of patterns in numbers as contradicting common sense, and instead concentrate on realistic notions about people who write WP pages, plus use large samples of articles (>2,000 pages) to test the ideas. Recent data shows 11,000 users (~10%) edit 25-2500 articles per month, as 92% of edits. Of course, a username who often neglects to login might seem like 256 people, as 255 passing strangers who make a few edits as different IPs and quit. -Wikid77 (talk) 04:13, 16 July, 22:04, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Image update not appearing

I uploaded a replacement logo at File:Blue cross logo.png but the previous image still shows (although it now has the size of my new image). The original image is the blue cross with the text to the right.

I found this phenomena mentioned many times before, with the answer being purging the page and refreshing the browser. I have tried that a few times, but I still see the old image.

Is it just me that cannot see the new logo? Periglio (talk) 19:39, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

• Thumbnail stuck, perhaps display 1px narrower: The previous problems have been fixed by changing the view to display, in a page, as 1-pixer-wider smaller (or taller shorter), until the auto-thumbnailing can re-cache with new image revision. Update: Even smaller custom thumbnails are still showing prior revision. Major, major bug in image display. -Wikid77 (talk) 20:12/20:32, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

I tried a 127px image on the article page, and it seems to have worked. The image page is still a bit screwy though! Periglio (talk) 21:30, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

If this is still an issue then providing the exact link to the exact size of the thumbnail that does not update would be very welcome. Right now I can just guess when it comes to reproduce the problem. :( Also see https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Purge#For_images --AKlapper (WMF) (talk) 14:14, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Recurring problem

Again, I have had two identical edits made, 1 second apart, without double-clicking or anything obvious: . Anyone else experienced this?--Gilderien Chat|List of good deeds 17:59, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

This happened again here and here.--Gilderien Chat|List of good deeds 21:40, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

You made similar reports at (I couldn't make a wikilink to that section) and Misplaced Pages:Village pump (technical)/Archive 113#Double edit. If you sometimes add a section twice when you use the new section tab, and get an edit conflict with yourself when you make other edits, then it sounds like manifestations of the same problem. I don't recall hearing or seeing this from others so I guess it's something in your account or computer. What is your browser and skin? PrimeHunter (talk) 23:42, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't seem to get the edit-conflict problem anymore, but this has only happened when I use the new section button. I use Chrome, and Windows 7 with a personalised Vector skin on a Dell Inspiron 17R Special edition and I don't recall changing any relevant preferences.--Gilderien Chat|List of good deeds 23:53, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Again here.--Gilderien Chat|List of good deeds 22:16, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

New Version of the Flow Prototype Released

A new version of the Flow Prototype has been released. Please read the release notes here. This version has many changes, not the least of which is that it approaches full functionality.--Jorm (WMF) (talk) 21:20, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Again with the liking it rather than lumping it, I'll toss in a cent or two here. Is there any way wikimarkup will be usable in Flow? There's a pretty steep learning curve, but once learned it's definitely quicker to just tap the quote key a couple times than to take my hands off the keyboard and go hunting for the "bold" button. (Speaking of which, if that button works currently it's not in a manner that's obvious to me.) Ignatzmice•talk 21:33, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Ignatzmice, I think you'll want to read Misplaced Pages:VisualEditor/Keyboard shortcuts. ⌘ Command+B bolds selected text (on a Mac) and I believe it's Control+B for Windows. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 01:48, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Tried that, didn't work. It is a pre-alpha version, right Jorm? All will be well in the future, I trust. Ignatzmice•talk 01:55, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Did you try that in the prototype (which does not have 100% functionality), or in VisualEditor (e.g., in an article)? It's working for me in VE, using Firefox on a Mac. If it's not working for you in VisualEditor, then please let me know so I can file a bug report. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 22:31, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Flow is currently designed to utilize the VisualEditor and be forwards-compatible with that. Wikimarkup is probably not on the table.--Jorm (WMF) (talk) 21:37, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

I presume it has been considered to have something along the lines of the Wikia visual editor? Also, although personally I think it is a nice touch, the "be nice" may strike people as a little patronising.--Gilderien Chat|List of good deeds 21:42, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

More like our own VisualEditor software. I agree that some people may find "be nice" as patronizing, but at the end of the day I think it will help with our overall problems with civility.--Jorm (WMF) (talk) 22:02, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Have you used the Wikia editor? It is pretty easy to use and lets you use wikimarkup which it converts when you save.--Gilderien Chat|List of good deeds 22:10, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

I know that we explored the Wikia editor ages ago during our first forays into discovery regarding the VisualEditor and that it was found wanting and buggy in places. Hence our own VisualEditor. I'd expect to receive significant pushback internally were I to suggest the Wikia editor over our own.--Jorm (WMF) (talk) 22:16, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Ok thanks. The preview is quite formatting heavy, could it be a preference to display more like our current look, which to me is much easier to read than the prototype and other similar things on other sites.--Gilderien Chat|List of good deeds 22:26, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

A few immediate observations:

• About the cancel buttons, why are they red? To me, they look identical to a wp:redlink, which kind of clashes with the rest of Misplaced Pages.
• Are those formatting buttons merely placeholders right now?
• I can click on multiple "actions" dropdowns, and clicking a new one does not dismiss one already open"
• When editing the title of a conversation, the input line extends about a 1/4 in past the right edge of the dialog, when it should stop about a 1/4 in from it. (XP, Chrome, independent of zoom or window size)
• Should deleting a topic prompt for a reason, if it isn't necessary? (Closing a topic requires one)

Chris857 (talk) 21:52, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

In order:

• Red is the Agora color for a "destructive" action. I agree with you about the "redlink" problem, which is really a bug with "redlinks" in general (they should never have been red in the first place). Your concern is noted, however.
• Yes, just placeholders.
• That sounds like a bug. You shouldn't be able to activate multiple modal windows at the same time. What browser/operating system are you using?
• Bug. I'll look into it.
• It should, but I didn't code it in. I'll add that to the to-do list.

Hope that helps.--Jorm (WMF) (talk) 22:02, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

I have a few more details about the "actions" dropdowns, and a screenshot. This is Chrome, on XP.

• It appears that I can bring up multiple of these menus if they are the same type, ie, multiple conversation-level dropdowns, or multiple "individual-comments-within-conversation" dropdowns, but not a mix of the two. An attempt to mix dismisses all dropdowns except the one just clicked on.
• If I click outside of the dropdown, all dropdowns are dismissed like I expect. Same with clicking on a action within a dropdown.
• Entirely unrelated, but Flow is hideously broken on IE8 on XP.

Chris857 (talk) 22:24, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Let me stress that this is only a prototype, and not the final product. I wrote it using only Chrome and Firefox on a macbook; I should expect that IE will absolutely break with it.

Thank you for the screenshot; this is helpful. I can't guarantee a fix in the next day or so, however. This is funky.--Jorm (WMF) (talk) 22:28, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

It would be nice if it used the screen better - on my main computer (1920 x 1080 monitor), it uses only half the screen - Flow should be able to work well with a whoile range of screen sizes, form phones and tablets to huge wide-screen monitors.Nigel Ish (talk) 22:16, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it looks rather silly with 2/3 of the screen being whitespace on my 2560 x 1440 monitor. Dragons flight (talk) 22:31, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Remind me, is this planned as an option on talk pages or a replacement for them? Dragons flight (talk) 22:32, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Replacement.--Jorm (WMF) (talk) 22:33, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Now there is quite a bit of stuff I'd like to have in my talk page. Looking back through my archive there is a section User_talk:Salix_alba/Archive6#Singular with mathematical formula, and computer code. Neither of which can be done by VE and I would suspect maths would be a long time coming. As a mathematical editor being able to do maths on my talk page is vital. I'm very worried you are going to introduce a system which reduces my functionality. Will there be an opt out?--Salix (talk): 22:40, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

See mw:Thread:Talk:Flow Portal/Maths - maths is rapidly on its way, and in a testable state. –Quiddity (talk) 04:35, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

In that case it will need to be very close to feature complete in terms of its representation of wiki code abilities (e.g. math, tables, parser functions, magic words, syntaxhighlight, etc.) since pretty much anything that might be in an article will need to be discussed sooner or later. Otherwise, one risks really antagonizing the experienced users. OR, one could just make options so that the magic edit boxes will also accept wiki code, which is my personal preference though I know the VE people don't like to hear that. Dragons flight (talk) 23:24, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Possibly simpler is to implement an <wikisrc>...</wikisrc> tag where we can embed wikisource and have it parsed and render by the same system used by actual articles, without being passed through parisod which has round trip problems. You also need to have <pre> implemented so we can see the source which caused the problems. Another recent example of this is on @Okeyes (WMF):'s talk page User talk:Okeyes (WMF)#broken template data where we were trying to debug template data code.--Salix (talk): 00:39, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Since someone is working on math support for VisualEditor, the use of VisualEditor should not prevent you from using math. The overall plan is "use VisualEditor", not "use a subset of VisualEditor that excludes math". Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 01:48, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Did you realize virtually every mathematician/physicist (e.g. those who use formulas most) uses LaTeX for his/her documents? Misplaced Pages was always beloved for the possibility to use TeX code. I doubt this will be something VE offers? --Patrick87 (talk) 04:29, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

And how is maths going to be done when the option to enable the mathjax render by default Template:Bug has been closed as WONTFIX. Its not practical with the default texvc renderer which would have to go off a generate an image for every keystroke.--Salix (talk): 06:18, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Presumably maths will be done in Flow with VisualEditor exactly like maths will be done in articles with VisualEditor. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 22:31, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

See mw:Thread:Talk:Flow Portal/Maths - maths is rapidly on its way, and in a testable state. –Quiddity (talk) 04:35, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

It looks nice, but my concern at mw:Talk:Flow_Portal#Flow_is_too_tall_27765 still stands. The nature of discussions here is that they tend to consist of many short contributions (unlike, say, Wiktionary, where each contribution to a discussion tends to be longer). Take, for example, this discussion at ANI - how tall would that be in Flow? — This, that and the other (talk) 01:07, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Ah, I forgot about that thread. Actually I brought up something very similar here sharing your concerns and giving a screenshot comparison how we could easily save huge amounts of space even with the current layout. --Patrick87 (talk) 04:29, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

What technical problem would there be in allowing us to have the equivalent of "edit source" for talk page comments?—Kww(talk) 17:21, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

I think it would be that it would be too slow to parse from stored HTML into wikimarkup and back. Or something like that.--Gilderien Chat|List of good deeds 20:46, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Not exactly. You're right that Flow discussions will not be saved in form of Wikitext anymore. They'll be rendered to something similar to HTML (not exactly HTML, though) the moment you post a comment. Therefore when displaying a discussion no further parsing is necessary therefore greatly reducing server load.

This does not prevent writing a comment in markup though. It can easily be parsed to the internal Flow representation when you submit it, exactly as if you use VisualEditor (probably even easier). There's no (puplicly known) reason yet why there should not be a markup editor. Except maybe Brandon being a WYSIWYG fetishist, disliking Wikitext, or not caring at all – see also his merely unsatisfying replies he posted to my request regarding the issue in the MediaWiki thread. --Patrick87 (talk) 21:17, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

It's very simple, actually, and I think I've said this multiple times: if we allow raw wiki markup, then it is entirely possible that someone can produce a post that cannot be rendered or edited by the VisualEditor in the future. The only way to guarantee that Flow is "future proof" is to start with the VisualEditor from the beginning.--Jorm (WMF) (talk) 22:01, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

a) Boo-freakin'-hoo, b) so maybe you can make it so we can only do wikimarkup that VE can handle, c) what's the point of VE if it can't do all that markup can do, and d) it's not as critical to be able to edit talk page posts as it is regular articles (still pretty useful, though). Ignatzmice•talk 22:10, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

It's actually simpler than that, Jorm: if you can't handle markup, you haven't produced a useful feature. The use of the Visual Editor is an option. The WMF has stated over and over that it will not mandate its use. To tell us that we cannot discuss things with other editors unless we use Visual Editor is not in keeping with that promise.—Kww(talk) 22:17, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

So Visual Editor may downgrade editors' ability to control form and display? I doubt this has been disclosed before in any sort of simple declarative sentences. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 22:22, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

@Jorm (WMF): Yes, you said it multiple times and I supposed we were over this discussion (although it makes a nice excuse to why you "can't" support Wikitext for the clueless user, that i have to admit). Fact is: VE can already do most of the things Wikitext can do (and probably already much more than you will allow in Flow, e.g. templates). Therefore you have to restrict VE to a subset of it's features anyway. And there is no reason why you couldn't do exactly the same for a markup editor in Flow. Remove HTML tags, styles and templates and you would have essentially what you said Flow comments would support. And don't claim VE couldn't support these basic things, that's just not true. Especially when everything is parsed to an internal format in the moment a comment is submitted anyway. --Patrick87 (talk) 22:44, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Now I'm really confused: are you saying that Flow won't support templates? Did anyone notice that an extremely large percentage of talk page messages consist of a template and a signature?—Kww(talk) 22:48, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I believe so, but as Brandon has explained as well, our current method of templating etc. is inefficient and Flow will allow more natural workflows to be developed. Or something like that :p --Gilderien Chat|List of good deeds 23:15, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

It's more complicated than that. An extremely large percentage of user talk page messages consist of what was a template and is now actually wikitext (because they're all subst'd). What you need is an easy way to get a standardized message onto the page. Flow will provide that. It may or may not happen as "a template".

I recommend spending some time with the use cases. mw:Flow Portal/Use cases provides a long list of what you will be able to do. Efficiently leaving messages for other people, whether by humans or by bots, is already on the list.

AFAICT, the only thing that has been definitively ruled out is having a fancy signature, since Flow's "signature" is actually taken from the history page (where fancy signatures don't show up under the current system). WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:25, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm really afraid when I read comments saying that this will replace the current wikitext for talk pages for several reasons:

• Talk pages are not used only to post messages to each other in a forum, they are also used to work collaboratively between several editors in many cases: for example, writing a list of tasks to do on the article, which can be completed (in the initial post) by others, and when someone has done a task he marks the task (in the initial post) has done. How can it be done with Flow ?
• Interfaces like Visual Editor are a lot slower to user than simply typing what you want when you have managed the wiki syntax. They can be useful for new editors, or for complex syntax (like tables, ...) but for simple things they are often more cumbersome (requiring to learn shortcuts or to use the mouse).

--NicoV 22:32, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

The plans for Flow include a header for what's called "metadata" in the mw:Flow Portal/Use cases. This is a place to put things like a {{todo}} list. There are also plans for collaborative editing space. For example, I could create one to post my proposed wording for a page, and then other people could edit that directly. Several different ways of doing this (one per page? one per discussion thread? one per comment? ability to set any given comment to 'anyone can edit'? set all comments to 'anyone can edit'?) have been proposed. If you have ideas or preferences, then feel free to leave a note at WT:Flow. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:31, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

@Jorm (WMF):. I'm having a bit of trouble figuring out the time line on the various Meta pages. Am I correct in understanding that Flow probably won't be enabled for mainstream use until mid-2014? Or what is the rough schedule? Dragons flight (talk) 22:40, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

My current understanding is that we'll have some version able to be deployed in December of 2013, in an opt-in basis. Mid 2014 seems like a realistic target for mainstream deployment, then.--Jorm (WMF) (talk) 22:49, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Some info is at WT:FLOW#Roadmap ("December : Goal date for the full production release of the user-to-user discussion system"). By the way, as is my custom, I prepared this message in a text editor and pasted it into the edit window. Waiting for kitchen-sink-included Javascript before I can do Ctrl-V is irritating. Johnuniq (talk) 01:43, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

"Remove from watchlist" button

Often I'm scrolling through my watchlist and find it is overly cluttered with articles that were once upon a time relevant but anymore, and it makes it extremely tedious to locate articles that I'm directly interested at the moment. But to alter my watchlist I have to go to the "edit watchlist" page, and then remember all the articles I wanted to get rid of, rinse and repeat.

I propose that on the Watchlist page, for each of the items, next to the "history" and "undo" "dif" buttons, there's also a "remove from watchlist" button - or something along those lines.--Coin945 (talk) 07:16, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

You could try adding the code from mw:Snippets/Unwatch from watchlist into User:Coin945/vector.js if you are still using vector, or User:Coin945/common.js if not. Personally, I have Misplaced Pages:Navigation popups turned on, and select "unwatch" from the "actions" menu that pops up whenever I hover my mouse over a link in the watchlist. -- John of Reading (talk) 07:46, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

I use:

// ]
if (wgCanonicalSpecialPageName == 'Watchlist') 
  importScript('user:js/watchlist.js');

I'm working on building my own script that uses some of the functionality of this script and also adds "add to watchlist" links on Special:Contributions as well... Anyways, happy editing! Technical 13 (talk) 11:30, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Thankyou very much guys. I'll experiment a bit and see which one I prefer. :)--Coin945 (talk) 14:11, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

users scripts page (WP:JS) contains several scripts that help deal with watchlist. i recommend the one i wrote myself: "Watchlist mark". this script shows pages you watch with boldface in category and contribution pages (just like they already appear in recentchanges page), and also adds a little item called "Show watchlist controls" to the "contentstub" (the little something that appear under page title).

pressing "Show watchlist controls" will add a "" link after each unwatched page, and "" link after each watched page.

this can be useful when you want to see which pages in some category you are watching, and when you want to add (or remove) many (but not all) the pages in some category to your watchlist. it's also useful if you want to go over your (or someone else's) contributions and start watching some of the pages.

peace - קיפודנחש (aka kipod) (talk) 20:07, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

This is Template:Bug, and it would be cool if someone technically inclined went ahead and fixed it at last. I'm myself planning to do that sometime soonish if nobody else steps up, but that would mean I'd have to get another person with permissions to merge the code to give it a final review. Matma Rex talk 15:42, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Where is Gadgets ?

It's gone. Where is it now?  Ę-oиė  >>>  ™ 12:15, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Whatever is happening, took out Twinkle too. --NeilN 12:19, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

• Getting same problem, "preferences" keep resetting, and the gadget tab only appears intermittently. -- Hillbillyholiday 12:20, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

I am getting this too. I also can't "Rollback Vandal" and "Restore" as these are not appearing as options. I tried updating my Firefox in case this was a compatibility issue but no change **sigh**--5 albert square (talk) 12:24, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

User scripts are failing too, but no errors to track. ?debug=true restores functionality, seems to be ResourceLoader related. — Edokter (talk) — 12:26, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Same here, I guess something is being "improved". (Hohum ) 12:27, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Nope, just a bug. Parsoid is DoSing the API cluster, which has implications for gadgets functioning. Mark Bergsma is looking into it now. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 12:32, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for clearing that up Okeyes :)--5 albert square (talk) 12:34, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

• Looks like it's not a Parsoid problem, actually - some decided to DoS the API cluster externally. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 13:02, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

FYI, it's happened too on many others wiki. But not on my main wiki wp.min. Weird.  Ę-oиė  >>>  ™ —Preceding undated comment added 13:02, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Someone sort this shit out and fast. Lugnuts 13:20, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

We are doing so. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 13:32, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

I hope whoever made that mistake is blocked by an admin. But of course, that wont happen... Lugnuts 13:54, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

You...want an admin to block an external IP address that is spamming the API? An IP address admins don't have access to, and that has already been blocked from poking said API? Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 13:57, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

• Well, in theory at least it would be possible, provided it's "just" a DoS attack and not DDoS. (Just joking...) Thomas.W 14:07, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

• Totally, but the sysadmins have ways of making them (not) talk ;). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 14:15, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Is changing the time stamps to your local time part of the gadgets too because all the time stamps I'm seeing defaulted back to the (what I find annoying) 24 hour UTC format. Even when I go to the "Date and time" section in my preferences and change the time zone, it still doesn't work. Please fix what ever is happening fast!.--Dom497 (talk) 13:59, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

The developers are working as fast as they can (and, yes. In reverse order.) Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 14:02, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Visual Editor exhumes itself and forces itself on me

Moments ago, while I was editing an article using the editing tool that works properly, the properly-disabled mess misnamed Visual Editor restored itself as my default editing tool. It seems to have been returned to its well-deserved grave after I resaved my "gadget" preferences, but why should any editor have to watch out for this dysfunction to recur? Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 12:59, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

See the section immediately above this; some decided to DoS the API cluster, impacting gadgets. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 13:01, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Its because the WMF is too lazy to implement an actual off switch for such a PoS that we are forced to hack a JavaScript off button, which really doesn't turn it off (because you cant) and thus any issues with JavaScript or the resource loader causes issues. Werieth (talk) 13:05, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

And it's restored itself again, and my ability to remove it has been disabled. When I enter the "Gadgets" panel (that is, when it hasn't been disabled without warning), I get a message that individual editors must take responsibility for use of those features. Obviously some people aren't properly taking responsibility for what they're doing. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 13:28, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

That's almost always existed. Again, we're working to fix the bug, which is not VE-specific. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 13:32, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

And when "Gadgets" came back, "Remove VisualEditor from the user interface" had been unchecked"! That's certainly a VE-specific error. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 13:45, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

That would be, yes, if it's what's happening - but gadgets are appearing intermittently, unreliably, and I have no idea how much what is loaded can actually be trusted. Could be that the VE box is unticked, in which case you're the only person to report it. Could be the gadgets page isn't displaying a user's personalised settings. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 13:51, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

No, it is not. The gadget is not related to VisualEditor in any way. It is merely a community-based script to hide the VE buttons. The current DDoS attack also has no relation to VE whatsoever; only gadgets and userscripts are affected as collateral damage from that attack. So hijacking this subject to spew against VE is absolutely pointless. — Edokter (talk) — 13:56, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

• I had the same issue, which I also noticed after VE reared its ugly head. It hasn't resurfaced though, although I should note that at first Gadgets did not load for me. I had to reload preferences. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:05, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

• Please write any data about the attacker you can disclose. --Синкретик (talk) 13:59, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

  I have zero non-aggregate data, and even if I did I'd disclose none of it. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 14:01, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

  Why? To divulge an IP address is not libel. --Синкретик (talk) 14:04, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

  No, but divulging an IP address from server logs is a colossal violation of our privacy policy. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 14:14, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

• Are you going to sue the attacker? --Синкретик (talk) 14:16, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

  I am not legal counsel for the Foundation and have absolutely no idea. At the moment our focus is on fixing the damage. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 14:18, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

  May I start a discussion on WP:Village pump (proposals) about actions against the attacker? --Синкретик (talk) 14:33, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

  Strictly speaking, I cannot stop you, but my advice would be that it would be a complete waste of time. Our legal or operations teams are not driven by community consensus, and the chances of us releasing the information are....infinitesimally small. Frankly, nothing's going to happen on that front that is community driven, and I have no idea what will happen at the Foundation end, particularly since a software bug and a DoS look identical in such circumstances. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 14:35, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

  Okeyes is correct in this isntance. WMF is responsible for the infrastructure, and response to an attack on it will have to come from the Foundation, and I think it unlikely that they won't at least contact the originating ISP(s). There's nothing the Misplaced Pages community can do except frown at these shenanegans. Resolute 15:09, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

There is actually a proper off switch for VE. It was chosen to disable the off switch for en:wp, and instead have a half-hidden option that breaks every now and then. Enabling the off switch is apparently an "enhancement". The patch is awaiting deployment. Anyone from WMF have an idea if/when this change will go through? - David Gerard (talk) 14:17, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

I do not know; that's a question for those with +2 rights. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 14:27, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Question Is the method of disabling the VE broken as of right now? I have checked both the editing preferences and the Gadget "Remove VisualEditor from the user interface", but I still get the edit and edit source links - but only after a delay so that when I clicked what I *thought* was the edit link I was confronted with a long pause and no edit window. Please, provide a means to permanently disable VE for me. Put my username in a "never use VE" list if necessary. -84user (talk) 14:32, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Could I respectfully request that WMF make it a priority to allow us who do not with to deal with VE at this time to truly place a stake through its heart? I am not opposed to the idea of using it at some future date, I am just too busy with writing and other work to be a guinea pig.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:57, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

84user, it should now be working again. As said, there was a bug around gadgets. If it still doesn't disappear, try clearing your cache. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 15:07, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Simple solution — just start using IE like I always do. I'm mildly interested in trying VE, but not so interested that I'd force myself to use Firefox. Nyttend (talk) 17:14, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

What happened?

Okeyes, you seem to be saying that this was caused by a "DOS" of the "API clusters" but you also seem to be saying that there is a bug. Can you clarify if the cause of today's problems was caused by a bug or by the issues with the "API clusters" or by both? Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 17:22, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

And a possibly more important question - would readers of WP been affected by this? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 17:23, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

It looks like a combination of delayed Parsoid jobs and a poke at the APIs from an external source caused swap death. Readers would not have been affected, to my knowledge, except for those who read logged-in with a gadget-dependent UI (if those exist). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 13:15, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

For the records, also see patch in https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/73617/ and related https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51317 --AKlapper (WMF) (talk) 14:23, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the updates. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 15:00, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Special:Notifications and files

Today, a user thanked me for an edit to a file. For that reason, the file is displayed at Special:Notifications. This makes the notifications page hard to read: I have been thanked for edits to several files, and all of the files are shown at their full size (e.g. 942 × 451 pixels for File:Inaugural Atomic Weights report 1903.png). Some files can be quite big.

Is there a way to see file names as text instead of seeing the images, or at least to see a small thumbnail image instead of a full-size image? Seeing half a million pixels on a small mobile phone screen is inconvenient. WP:IMGSIZE advises people not to force images to be displayed in articles at a too big size for precisely this reason. --Stefan2 (talk) 14:47, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Fixed by editing MediaWiki:Notification-thanks. Also, gerrit:73615. Anomie⚔ 15:17, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you! --Stefan2 (talk) 16:44, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Template displaying different results for different people

I copy the following discussion from Template talk:Sumter County, Florida.

This template is defective. On every article it's attached to, the unincorporated community of Tarrytown, Florida shows up, But on the Sumterville, Florida article Tarrytown won't show up on the template. I thought it was an unintended consequence of one of User:Nyttend's edits, but I was wrong. So why won't Tarrytown show up there? ---------User:DanTD (talk) 17:06, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Um, it's there when I view the page. Perhaps some sort of weird caching error? I've edited both article and template, so the caching should now be forced to restart. Nyttend (talk) 17:47, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Sorry. I'm afraid it's still not showing up. It's definitely weird though, because it shows up on every other Sumter County, Florida article. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 21:48, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Any clue what's going on, or how to fix it? I see no problems myself, so I'm not entirely clear what DanTD's experiencing. Nyttend (talk) 17:18, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

There is a similar report about another navbox (the Sideways link in No Hats Beyond This Point) at Misplaced Pages:Help desk#Problem with Men Without Hats template? I don't see the problem in any of the pages but I noticed the allegedly missing link is repectively right before and right after the automatically bolded selflink in the navbox. Could there be an issue with such selflinks "eating" a nearby link in certain circumstances? I admit it sounds strange. The disappearing links have been in the templates for years so it doesn't sound like the problem is an old cached page revision. PrimeHunter (talk) 19:06, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

I saw the problem when going through a proxy and now without a proxy I don't. I wonder if the proxy has something to do with it. Doctorx0079 (talk) 23:10, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Tech News: 2013-29

Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please inform other users about these changes. Translations are available.

Recent software changes (Not all changes will affect you.)

• The latest version of MediaWiki (1.22/wmf10) was added to test wikis on July 11. It will be enabled on non–Misplaced Pages sites on July 15, and on all Wikipedias on July 18.
• The Disambiguator extension was enabled on all Wikimedia wikis on July 9 (bug #50174). To use it, add the __DISAMBIG__ code to disambiguation templates (see example).
• The Universal Language Selector was added to all remaining wikis on July 9, finishing the process of replacing the Narayam and WebFonts extensions.
• The CommonsDelinker bot is now on-line and operating again, after a password problem was fixed (bug #51016).
• VisualEditor news:
  • According to the schedule, VisualEditor will be available to all users on the English Misplaced Pages on July 15.
  • Users should add TemplateData to templates to prepare for VisualEditor. A tutorial is available.
  • Parameters marked as "required" in TemplateData are now auto-added when you add a template (bug #50747).
  • Warnings are now displayed in VisualEditor when users edit pages that are protected or have edit notices (bug #50415).
  • Many other bugs have been fixed in VisualEditor during the past two weeks.
• The Wikimedia technical report for June has been published, with a summary that can be translated.

Future software changes

• A new version of the Single User Login system for global accounts will be enabled on July 17. Users will now automatically go back to the previous page instead of seeing the "Login success" page with logos.
• The software that resizes images on all wikis will change on July 18. Resizing of big images will be faster and more reliable, and the resolution limit for GIF, PNG and TIFF files (currently set at 50 megapixels) will be removed.
• Edit tags (mostly used by AbuseFilter) will now also be on diff pages. They include a link to Special:Tags before the edit summary. Wikis that use links in tag messages should remove them.
• Global edit filters are currently in testing and will be added to wikis later.
• Wikivoyage wikis will start to use Wikidata for interwiki links on July 22.
• A new image gallery design has been proposed by Brian Wolff; comments and feedback are welcome.
• An IRC discussion about Bugzilla is planned for July 16, at 16:00 (UTC) on the IRC channel #wikimedia-office on Freenode (time conversion).

Tech news prepared by tech ambassadors and posted by Global message delivery • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe.

17:32, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Null edits

Does anyone understand the changed to null edits made by the fix to Template:Bug? --  Gadget850 20:25, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes. The problem was that people (or their null-editing bots) were null-editing templates with millions of transclusions, which was causing the job queue to be flooded with jobs to reparse every page that transcluded the template. So in an application of WP:PERF#If the sysadmins identify a performance problem, they will fix it, the problem was identified and fixed.

The fix was to make null edits (and the API's action=parse with forcelinkupdate) no longer do that. Now a null edit will reparse the page edited just as it always has (and therefore fix category membership and such), but it will no longer queue every transcluding page for reparse too.

Also, a new "forcerecursivelinkupdate" parameter was added to the API's action=parse to get the old behavior if necessary. Please do not go and change your null-editing bots to make a trivial almost-null edit, and don't change them to blindly use action=parse&forcerecursivelinkupdate=1. If you think your bot needs to do this for some reason, ask (wikitech-l would be a good place) and then be patient for a response. On the other hand, there is no need to be any more paranoid than usual about editing these high-use templates either when the edits are necessary. BJorsch (WMF) (talk) 20:47, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

if your explanation is correct (and if i understood it correctly), then there's a possibility the cure is worse than the disease.

we've been using null edits plenty of times specifically to trigger reparsing of transcluding pages, and this is one of the crucial tools in our toolbox, when pages do not appear the way we expect them to appear. in many cases, we can't use "faux" edits (such as adding or removing some whitepsace from the "noinclude" part of the tempalte) instead of null edits, because these templates are protected and only sysops can edit them (non-sysops can still execute a "purge", supposedly the equivalent of null-edit).

removing this tool from our toolbox seems to me as a very bad idea.

now, if people operate bots that execute null-edits unnecessarily, won't the right solution be to stop the bots from doing so, rather than neutralizing the important function of null edits?

it is also possible, of course, that i did not fully understand what you wrote, and to a leser degree, i guess it is also possible that you didn't fully understand this code change... peace - קיפודנחש (aka kipod) (talk) 22:56, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

You will still be able to null-edit the transcluding page to trigger a reparse of that page, this has not changed. The difference is that if you null-edit the template itself, it will no longer queue every transcluding page for reparse. Also, it's not just bots that are doing this; as mentioned in the bug, individual editors have been known to do this too because they think the job queue isn't working (and doing this can make it not work even more). BJorsch (WMF) (talk) 23:04, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it more that the WMF went out and told people to add TemplateData to all the high use templates. This was of course followed by the discovery that the TemplateData often took a long time to appear in VE, and the advice that null editing the templates would make it appear? Seems like the last two weeks were probably far from routine for the job queue. Dragons flight (talk) 23:10, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

To tell the truth, I don't know much about that—WMF is not all that big, but it's big enough that VE and TemplateData are outside of my "area" (and I haven't had time to look into TemplateData in my volunteer capacity yet). At any rate, this fix will also prevent the job queue from being blown up if people null-edit the templates for that reason, or for future situations like that. BJorsch (WMF) (talk) 23:33, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Also, in my personal opinion and going off on a bit of a tangent, it would be a good idea to put the TemplateData on the doc page or some other subpage if possible, for the same reasons that we put documentation on a doc page transcluded within <noinclude>: to allow unprotected editing of the documentation and to avoid having to reparse everything transcluding the template itself when only the documentation has changed. Now where was that RFC about that that I forgot to ever comment on... Anomie⚔ 23:35, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

mw:Help:TemplateData says specifically that TemplateData should be on the doc page. I've bolded that statement to increase its visibility; perhaps editors who are placing it directly on template pages could be notified they are making a mistake. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 03:42, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

By general consensus, TemplateData does go on the /doc page, but the software doesn't associate the new data with the template until the template's page itself gets refreshed (via save, null edit, or job queue). And of course once the job queue got thrashed, people started null editing templates to "hurry" the updates along. Dragons flight (talk) 06:57, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

@Dragons flight and Anomie: This change to how templates are enqueued when a null edit was made by Tim specifically to address the chronic difficulties that the JobQueue has (and has apparently had for some months without it being fixed). We're well aware of the advice we've been giving people on how to bypass the problem with the queue that was affecting TemplateData, yes. :-) Jdforrester (WMF) (talk) 23:39, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

• Some pages (like Category:Rescaled fairuse files more than 7 days old) instruct people to make null edits to certain pages. Are these instructions now obsolete and replaced by things like posting titles=Template:Non-free_reduced&action=purge&forcerecursivelinkupdate=1 to api.php? If so, then the instructions need to be updated. --Stefan2 (talk) 23:25, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Galleries

The <gallery> tag will support pages for PDF, DjVu and other multi-page files. See Template:Bug. --  Gadget850 20:32, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Making the double redirect fixing bot smarter.

Recently, the article that was originally at Tom Barry was moved to Tom Barry (soldier), and Tom Barry was then redirected to Thomas Barry. All of this is fine. However, prior to these moves, Guerilla Days in Ireland (written by Thomas Barry (soldier)) was a redirect to Tom Barry. When Tom Barry was redirected to Thomas Barry, Guerilla Days in Ireland became a double redirect, and the double redirect fixing bot came along and made it point directly to Thomas Barry. This is fairly regular scenario. My hope is that the double redirect fixing bot can be made smarter, so that when a page at "A" is moved to "A (foo)", and then the title, "A" is turned into a redirect to disambiguation page "A (bar)", the bot will fix double redirects by pointing them to "A (foo)" instead of "A (bar)". Cheers! bd2412 T 19:34, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Another option would be to clean up the resulting double-redirects yourself when doing something like that, along with any direct links to the problematic redirect. Anomie⚔ 20:49, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

That would be great - I always do that. However, whoever moved the page in this case didn't do that, and more often than not it seems that people don't do that, leading to a scourge of bad redirects like these. bd2412 T 21:59, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

There really are two choices for the bot: it can redirect to where the redirect points now, or it can redirect to where the redirect pointed. Can you describe, even in vague terms, an algorithm which would let the bot decide which was correct?—Kww(talk) 22:33, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

I propose that the bot or bots should be instructed to see whether the potential double redirect target is a disambiguation page; if yes, then go with the previous target instead of the new one. bd2412 T 00:25, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Template:Infobox football biography

Hello. I need your help with the Template:Infobox football biography. I use this template in greek wikipedia. I know that wanting help for a foreing wikipedia isn't so appropriate but noone could help me in greek wikipedia.

In the template there is a parameters like {{#ifeq:{{{number|♠}}}|♠||]}}. I want to do the same about the parameters clubs1, clubs2 etc. In this parameters we used a template for teams calling Football teams. I want, if one or more parameters of clubs1, clubs2, clubs3 are using, if they don't have the template Football teams, then will categorize in a certain cateroty.

For example,

• |clubs1={{Football teams|Arsenal F.C.}}
• |clubs2={{Football teams|Manchester United F.C.}}
• |clubs3=Chelsea F.C.

would categorized because in clubs3 the Football teams template in not used. Xaris333 (talk) 22:32, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Anyone??? Xaris333 (talk) 17:41, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

You may be able to use the {{Str left}} function, if it is available, to check that the first 2 characters of the parameter are {{. Keith D (talk) 23:45, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

That won't work, because templates are processed from inside to outside - the arguments of the {{str left}} will be evaluated before the two characters are determined, by which time they certainly won't be{{ even if they started like that. No, this would have to be a Lua job - you can't do it in Wikicode. --Redrose64 (talk) 07:15, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

I guess you could modify {{Football teams}} to return something specific which doesn't influence rendering at the start, and then test for presense of that. The presense wouldn't guarantee that {{Football teams}} was used but it would be a good indication. PrimeHunter (talk) 11:39, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Missed wikinavigation with Google Chrome

I've noticed using Chrome Version 28.0.1500.72 m that in attempting navigation via the wikilink WP:SYNC, I am navigated briefly to the target subsection but that I am renavigated back to the head of the article before things settle down. Firevox version 22.0 navigates as expected. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 22:37, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

It works for me in the same Chrome version on Windows Vista. If a page ends up in the wrong place then try clicking in the browser address bar and press enter. If I'm already somewhere on the page and click the circular reload arrow in Chrome then I first go briefly to the section and then back to wherever I was. I don't know whether this is a normal Chrome feature. PrimeHunter (talk) 23:08, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

WMF intends for Only VisualEditor to be usable on Talk pages; representative states he would "dearly love to kill off Wikitext".

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:VisualEditor&diff=prev&oldid=564282164

Was anyone consulted on this? What if you want to quote text from the article on the talk page? Or wanted to use templates?

Not to mention how many bots will need recoded. Goodbye auto-archiving bots. Goodbye the bot that handles Good article promotions.

It gets worse when you start digging:

""You should strive to achieve Zen acceptance that the only editor for Flow will be the VisualEditor. If, by the time Flow is released, the VisualEditor supports a native code editor, it will likely be there. But nothing is promised - nor can it be." - Jorn (WMF)"

He went on to add "It is entirely possible that the data for each post will not be saved as wikitext because there are considerable performance issues that arise when doing so. If this is the case, things like templates will simply be unable to be supported." and further added "I would dearly love to kill off Wikitext."

I apologise if the links are a bit weird - they use LiquidThreads there, and linking to individual threads is buggy.

Is Jorm acting in a rogue manner? Perhaps. But until the WMF denies it, we need to presume this is true. Adam Cuerden 00:13, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

There's nothing stopping people from creating a user subpage like Special:MyPage/Talk, where both VisualEditor and source editor can be used. And assuming signatures can still be customised, we can even link to it from there. Having two parallel talk systems isn't ideal, but then neither is only allowing VisualEditor – I don't want to be forced to use it. - Evad37 (talk) 01:20, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

If someone posts spam, or vandalism, on your primary user talk page, I'm guessing that you'll choose to use VE to deal with it, if the alternative is that the posting gets left as is. Also, it's not clear how other editors would actually find your parallel user talk page. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 03:33, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Like Evad said, one could link to the parallel page in one's sig. I was going to also say that you could soft redirect the Flow page to the parallel page, but I don't know if that would work, what with it being a template. One could also hard-redirect it as well. An issue might be Notifications not being integrated with such a workaround (P.S. how will Notifications be integrated with Flow??). Ignatzmice•talk 03:47, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Looking at the prototype (only a prototype!) there doesn't seem to be a way to edit others' posts, but they are deletable. No VisEd needed. I think. Ignatzmice•talk 03:52, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Users will not have a signature when Flow arrives in December, and Flow will be some software feature that cannot be replaced with a redirect. The way the developer is talking, only an admin will be able to delete a comment, and that will leave a visible marker (I hope not like "comment by User:OBAMA_IS_GAY removed"). Johnuniq (talk) 03:57, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

See Wikipedia_talk:Flow#Arbitrary_Section_Break_1, particularly Jorm's and Whatamidoing's comments. Editing other people's comments is just a user-right, which will (presumably) be up to us to decide how it is given out (and or changed later on). If it can be restricted to "group-admin", it can be restricted (or unrestricted) in any way. –Quiddity (talk) 04:24, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

This post was duplicated in a variety of places.

If everyone could respond at Misplaced Pages talk:Flow, rather than in fragmented locations, that would help everyone. (Pointers to discussions are good; fragmenting discussions purposefully is not good.) –Quiddity (talk) 04:24, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

• How do we enforce policies such as WP:NFCC#9 and WP:BLP if there is no easy way to edit other people's comments on talk pages? How do I tag a comment with {{db-g10}} if I can't edit it? Does it work like LiquidThreads (where you add deletion templates, like {{db-g12}}, to individual posts) or like a normal talk page (where you add revision deletion templates, like {{copyvio-revdel}}, somewhere on the page)? Also, if templates don't work, you might not be able to nominate anything for deletion in the first place as there is no way to add {{delete}}. Sounds like a spammers' paradise... --Stefan2 (talk) 16:02, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
  • You should read the section above fully and note how User:Quiddity explains that editing another user's post will be a user right (so not impossible), same (unmentioned) for deleting. There is nothing set in stone about how that permission will be configured (though giving it to IPs seems unlikely to me). Regarding using templates for deletion... How often do we have such discussions about individual comments ? Not that much I think. Also for entire discussions, we would likely attach either a new comment or add the deletion notification to the page header. If there is more flow control required than that ? If additional workflows are required, I'm sure Brandon would love to hear about them. But please move that discussion to the talk page of the flow portal then. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 19:23, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

I pointed out at WP:VisualEditor that Flow will force all editors to use VE on talk pages, and I was reverted and accused of making bad-faith false edits. WMF has no idea what they're doing, and we need to make it known to them. Ian.thomson (talk) 21:24, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Ian - I (and other editors) share your concern, but this isn't an issue for the VE team - it's an issue for Flow. If using VE (plus a degraded VE to handle older browsers and those with disabilities) results in limitations within Flow' that are unacceptable, we need to point that out to the Flow designers. They are the ones who then should turn to the VE team and ask for VE modifications, and/or modify their design so that wikitext editing remains an option. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 05:07, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, in fairness, the closest thing to an "official" comment on this issue is posted on the VisualEditor FAQ. The two are not separate. Risker (talk) 05:14, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages talk:Flow#Just making sure I have this straight - This seems to be (on its way to being) resolved. I imagine we'll get an even clearer answer in 12+ hours, once more staff have (slept and) woken up and chimed in. Announcing the new prototype over the weekend was just asking for trouble! ;) –Quiddity (talk) 05:47, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

At that link is this, from Jalexander of WMF: "I also, honestly, don't know if we have a Flow FAQ." I believe I saw, somewhere, Jorm saying that there was in fact no FAQ (yet). On my to-do list is to create one (no promises; I hope someone else beats me to it), here at the English Misplaced Pages, in which we can gather a complete list of issues and answers, including, of course, lots of "to be determined at time X". (If Jorm wants to put up his own, personal FAQ at MediaWiki.org, that's fine.) That way, perhaps we'll avoid getting a beta version of Flow going into full production on our talk pages. Because while it's possible to use multiple editors to edit the same article (WikiEd, for example, has existed for quite a while), it's not possible (or, let's say, at all desirable) to have multiple talk pages for the same article. When we shift to using Flow, it has to be a clean cut-over, even if it's done on a phased, page by page basis. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 22:53, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't know if people have noticed, but we seem to have got what we wanted. Ignatzmice•talk 05:04, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, depends totally on how the "fallback" will look. A fall-back (for me) is mostly something that only supports rudimentary functionality, being used as a last resort to be able to use a product at all if otherwise not possible for some fundamental reason. What I'd like to see is a Wikitext alternative to the VisualEditor.

I'm a little afraid (please Brandon or anybody else involved, feel free to distract my concerns, if you have solid arguments) that we might be mollified with the prospect of an only slightly limited Wikitext editor first, only to recognize later on that it lacks so many functions compared to the VE that it is not an actual alternative but only what it is called – a fall-back. --Patrick87 (talk) 09:31, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

User:Cacycle/wikEdDiff

Is anyone else having trouble with the "improved diff" feature (User:Cacycle/wikEdDiff)? I've tried it at Vince Carter and Allen Iverson, and everything is highlighted in red, as if everything on the page had been deleted (though that's not the case). Thanks! Zagalejo^^^ 02:18, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

It worked correctly in my tests. Please post a specific diff where you see the problem. What is your browser and skin? PrimeHunter (talk) 12:09, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

see, e.g., This diff. with chrome 28.0.1500.72, pressing the wikeddiff button shows the whole article in red (maroon?) in the wikeddiff box. with ff 22.0 _and_ IE 10, the "wikeddiff" box has all "normal" text - nothing in red and nothing in green. ie10 in "compatibility mode" shows the wikeddiff box completely empty (except maybe an ellipsis or something). the actual edit removed some superfluous newline characters, i believe. peace - קיפודנחש (aka kipod) (talk) 15:48, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

My tests were in Firefox. I have tried Chrome 28.0.1500.72 now and see the described problem except there is the green text "undefined" after all the red. I examined the page history and it seems to have started in . That and all later tested diffs have the problem. None of the earlier tested diffs have it. I have posted to User talk:Cacycle/wikEdDiff. PrimeHunter (talk) 22:18, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

An example diff is . And yes, I do see the green "undefined". I'm using Chrome. Zagalejo^^^ 04:25, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

note that even though the problem is most noticeable with chrome, none of the other browsers shows the diff i linked to correctly (i.e., none of them indicated the removed whitespaces, as wikeddiff normally does). peace -

Infobox/nav box disputes

I've noticed that infoboxes and nav boxes are subject to a lot of bitter disputes on wikipedia. I was wondering if a good solution to the problem would be a preference option to suppress the showing of infoboxes and nav boxes for those editors who detest them. I think it's a contentious enough topic to warrant an option in preferences.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 09:33, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't think it needs a new option when it can be done in one line of CSS:

.infobox, .navbox { display: none; }

Just put that in Special:MyPage/common.css. --Redrose64 (talk) 09:52, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes but it doesn't stop disputes happening over info and navboxes. The option should be there in preferences to suppress them. ♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 10:23, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure that's going to solve the issue. I like infoboxes because of the consistency and familiarity they bring to pages, but for specific data beyond birth and death dates, the content below the picture might as well say "tl;dr". And when arguments descend into borderline fanboyism, I switch off and lose interest. Ritchie333 12:56, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

In general, I hate info boxes, I make no secret of it. Having said that, I see their usefulness on sports, geographical, film and political articles. Info boxes on biographies are pointless and repeat information which can easily be found within the lead section. They boxes can be so small that they look ridiculous, or too long that they look overwhelming. They can also interfere with the lede image forcing its size, and ruin preceding sections after it if overly long, often sandwiching text between the first image within the body. I think it is high time we found a happy medium in order to appease those who are pro-infobox and those who despise them. -- Cassianto 16:35, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm a serious reader and contributor and I love Infoboxes, both as a reader – to find information quickly, and as an editor with an eye toward wikidata and other automated parsing of information from articles. Computers can't easily extract the information from the prose, and, while humans can, it's harder than looking in the Infobox. In what way is any of that not serious? I suggest trying the code snippet above for a while to hide them. Thanks for that, RR64! —— 16:46, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

I retracted that, so no need to get upset. However, that seems to be how they are designed, giving the reader quick information without having to read the entire article" that is a lazy reader in my book. Any important information can be found in the lead section of any article; there is no need to repeat it in an ugly box. The technical "metadata" stuff I have no knowledge of I'm afraid, but surely it can be hidden in some cases? -- Cassianto 16:58, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

And the infobox wars continue to escalate largely because certain editors feel the need to characterize their opponents as, say, "lazy" or "marginally literate". Plenty of careful readers who have no problem swimming through hundreds or thousands of pages hour after day after week still find infoboxes useful. For example, when an unfamiliar term or name comes up in another article, and you just want to click through briefly to get your bearings and then pop immediately back and continue reading before you forget just what it was you were reading. Disinfoboxers fail to recognize the whole world of reading modes in the universe. Plenty of real "bang-bang" wars spring from similar narrowmindedness. Curly Turkey (gobble) 02:10, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

I wonder whether it is going to be true for long that 'Computers can't easily extract the information from the prose' -they seem to be making good headway in doing so - try for example asking about any topic here - (even for topics which don't have WP infoboxes! - although admittedly it doesn't seem strong on operas yet). I suspect we will still be bickering about the importance of infoboxes for metadata when other data-extraction technologies have left the issue behind.--Smerus (talk) 17:50, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Fine to have better data-extracting devices in a future, but why not have an infobox until then, with dates in templated form and other information structure? Why not give fast access to someone who simply wants to find a date or the name of an opera librettist? And yes, why not hide them for those who despise them? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:59, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Back to Dr. Blofeld's technical request: providing a gadget in preferences to hide all infoboxes for logged-in users is not going to happen because no-one wants that, not even those who dispute the usefulness of such boxes for certain articles. The dispute is not about the sensibilities of those opposing (one can look away) but whether the form and content of infoboxes is appropriate for some articles in delivering information to the average reader. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 03:03, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

This also hides the lead image, so this is a non-solution. People who oppose infoboxes still want photos. —Designate (talk) 03:20, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

How often do search results update?

RESOLVED: Daily during 06:00-7:00 UTC; noted in Help:Searching. -Wikid77 16:14, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Hiya, I was wondering if anyone knows how long it takes for Misplaced Pages's search page to update with new edits. For example: I've been searching for the exact phrase "passed away" and changing it to "died" (per WP:EUPHEMISM). My ability to do this is dependent on the search results being up to date, and I've noticed that I've gotten hits on articles that no longer have this phrase anymore. Any thoughts? Is there a better way to do this? Thanks! Cyphoidbomb (talk) 20:11, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:SEARCH#Delay_in_updating_the_search_index. πr (t • c) 20:57, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Is the whole search index updated at the same time? Can the last update time be seen somewhere? I tried https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/Server_Admin_Log but don't see it there. If it's the same time for all pages then I guess a search on a frequently edited page like Misplaced Pages:Sandbox will reveal the approximate time. The search hit on "Misplaced Pages:Sandbox" currently says "02:40, 15 July 2013" (with UTC time) for me. Based on that indicates a search index update between 02:25 and 02:40 and 05:55. PrimeHunter (talk) 22:41, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Do you use IRC? You'd probably get a response from the sysadmins on #wikimedia-tech . If you find out more, please add it to the H:SEARCH page! πr (t • c) 00:37, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

To summarize, they're done about once a day, per wiki (it's done automatically). With the work we're doing on replacing the search backend, the goal is to make search updates near-instantaneous (within seconds at most). ^demon 01:46, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Awesome, thanks all! Cyphoidbomb (talk) 22:32, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

• When daily, the new wikisearch index ready circa 06:00-07:00 UTC: Although there have been cases of a "stuck reindex" for days or weeks, I have also checked for daily searches of mispelled words, or counts of combined words, over the past few years and noticed the index seems ready circa 06:00-07:00 (UTC) each night. However, the actual re-indexing might occur hours earlier, possibly 03:00-4:15, with the release of the updated index posted during 06:00-7:00 (UTC). Lately, I have been wikisearching for "nowiki the" to confirm that most insertions of nowiki-tags by the wp:VisualEditor are getting corrected everyday, by someone somewhere, leaving only a few new "nowiki" pages (of 2,065), as re-indexed every day for the past 6 days. BTW: The pageviews in stats.grok.se are often updated circa 01:00-02:00 UTC but counted until 23:00 UTC, each night, which someone noted was midnight in Sweden's time zone. -Wikid77 (talk) 02:04, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. I don't use IRC but looking at Misplaced Pages:Database reports/Pages with the most revisions I suppose Help:Searching could refer to the most recent time in the top-3 results of this search to get an estimate of what time the search index is currently based on. PrimeHunter (talk) 13:46, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

• WP:Sandbox reindexed 3:30 but articles reindex <04:15 posted >06:00: As expected, the morning's re-indexing is a multi-hour process, running over 4 hours, and although the "WP:Sandbox" reindex timestamp shows re-indexing occurred circa 03:30 each day, the mainspace articles were re-indexed almost 1 hour later, up to 04:15 UTC, with results posted during the hour 06:00-7:00 where some article re-indexes were not ready until nearly 07:00 while "WP:" namespace project-page indexes were posted earlier, near 06:00 UTC. -Wikid77 16:14, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

• Updated Help:Searching for reindex time and search-options: Thanks to this discussion, I have updated Help:Searching to give the case of the wikisearch re-indexing during 03:00-04:15 (UTC) with results posted during 06:00-7:00. However, I also quickly noted 10 search-options in the top paragraph, with wikilink to the Syntax, because the listing of search-options has been 24 paragraphs below in the page. In this fearful time, of many people thinking Misplaced Pages has reduced functionality, with fewer browser skins, it is good to note 10 powerful search-options in wikisearch:

NOTE: "Various search options are allowed (see below: Syntax), such as: word1 word2, "find phrase",
-exclusion, respell~, *end, begin*, (red OR white) OR blue, prefix:xx, intitle:xx, and incategory:xx".

I bet few people know the form: respell~ to match various spellings, such as: mariland~. We need to ensure other Help pages have more condensed, concise, top overviews of the technical features and options allowed, rather than far below in a Help page. My hunch is that many power users are unlikely to read down 24 paragraphs to get an overview, especially after several comments on this page, for how even one "300-word paragraph" will be skipped as too long and "unfair" to technical readers. -Wikid77 16:14, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Email throttling

How is the email throttling configured on en Misplaced Pages? I found Manual:Edit throttling at mediawiki.org, but I can't find the details for en wiki. How many emails can an editor send before this triggers, and how long will he be blocked from emailing one this happens? Is it different among different editor classes, or is it the same for all? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 21:57, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

You're looking for InitialiseSettings.php, ctrl+f for "wgRateLimits." ^demon 01:42, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Small request for bot/script to replace "language=ru" with "language=Russian"

I don't know where to post this, but the Village Pump seemed like a decent place to start. If this is the wrong place, feel free to move it, and don't thwack me with anything too substantial.

I have been correcting errors in citations, and I have noticed that pretty much every Russia-related article I edit contains an incorrectly formatted parameter, "language=ru", in its citation parameters. (The "language" parameter takes the full language name, not the two-letter code.)

You can see an example of one of these citations here. Note that the rendered reference says "(in ru)" instead of the correct "(in Russian)".

It occurred to me that someone clever with a script or bot or similar creature might be able to do a semi-automated find and replace of "language=ru" in citations with "language=Russian".

Is this a good place to request such a thing? I do not have the time or skills to take on such a project myself. Thanks. Jonesey95 (talk) 00:05, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

I'd try WP:BOTREQ; it's possible that other ISO language names might need to be converted, as well. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 00:43, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Have you considered letting the parameter be an ISO code or language name? It might help to only have one spelling in cases like Tuvan vs. Tyvan. πr (t • c) 02:59, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Seeing if we can make Citations support ISO codes in addition to Language names has been on my to do list for a while. I think it is possible, though there are a few complexities and I haven't had time to work through it. Dragons flight (talk) 05:59, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

mw:Extension:Scribunto/Lua reference manual#Language library shows a number of language functions. It might be better to create a separate module that would take either the code or full name as inputs and output both the code and full name as separate values that could be read by another module. --  Gadget850 11:25, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

That would be much better, and would allow "lang" and "hreflang" parameters to be set accordingly. It done in Lua, it's possible that either type of value could be accepted. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 09:26, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

How would you use hreflang? --  Gadget850 10:48, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

AIUI, Bugzilla has a ticket 824245 and a patch to enable that, though not yet deployed here. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:02, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

That bug does not exist. I see Template:Bug which has an old patch. --  Gadget850 20:46, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

I have reposted this request at WP:BOTREQ. Thanks for the advice. Allowing the citation template to use the two-letter code would be an elegant option; right now the best option that uses the two-letter code is adding the {{Language icon}} template (rendered like this: Template:En icon) after closing the citation braces but before closing the ref tag. Jonesey95 (talk) 14:20, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

{{Language icon}} does nothing for the citation elements. There is already a feature request to add the proper language markup to titles where 'language' is set. --  Gadget850 16:36, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Article disrupted?

Anyone else seeing a disrupted page Jerusalem, this current version? I see: below the two hatnotes (OK), the infobox starts wide (out of screen), all boxes and images are vertically sequential, and there are a few lines of text unwrapped and very wide. The Edit Source preview does the same, and opening Edit (VE) shows the same, then showing a warning "Unresponsive script" while loading. -DePiep (talk) 05:50, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm seeing the disruption - Firefox 22. -- John of Reading (talk) 05:54, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Fixed it - there was a </div> missing. -- John of Reading (talk) 05:58, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Moving "superseded" IfD discussions to its own list?

I have found that many helpful people have converted some of the hoary old GIFs I've uploaded over the years into the shiny new PNG format. When this happens, the older GIF sort of hangs around for a while before being put on the deletion lists. When this happens, I get a scary-looking YOU WILL BE DELETED!!!! message on my talk page (in spite of the no-robots flag?!), when in reality this is a very minor bookkeeping operation.

So is there any reason we shouldn't split off the "images deleted because there's a newer version" to an entirely separate list? It would see this would greatly simplify matters for all involved.

Maury Markowitz (talk) 20:40, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Is this me or the editor?

Every time I try to use the visual editor, I find this at the top of the saved article:

<embed type="application/iodbc" width="0" height="0" />

I'm aware of what iodbc is, and I'm pretty sure I don't have it on my machine… but anything is possible. Is this something my machine is doing, or the editor? Maury Markowitz (talk) 00:39, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

What browser are you using, and can you give steps to reproduce? What page are you trying to edit? Any browser extensions/gadgets that could be interfering? πr (t • c) 01:27, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

It's most likely a broken browser extension. Sure you don't have this installed on your browser ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheDJ (talk • contribs) 06:47, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Not that one, but a different one… thanks for the pointer, all fixed! Maury Markowitz (talk) 10:33, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Wait, one thing… WHY NOW? This didn't happen with the source editor, didn't happen on any other web-based editor, so what is it about the visual editor that kicked it off? Maury Markowitz (talk) 10:34, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

If you want somebody (probably not me) to investigate that then you should say which browser and extension it was. PrimeHunter (talk) 10:47, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

OpenODBC. Already filed in bugzilla. Maury Markowitz (talk) 10:48, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I have added {{tracked|51521}}. PrimeHunter (talk) 12:23, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I personally find this similar to a bug with FoxLingo, a Firefox extension: see here. I wonder if they're trying to add HTML to the body, but this happens. I'm really not sure whether this is an extension/browser bug or a bug in VE, but it seems to be a problem with the extensions. πr (t • c) 16:30, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, there are multiple extensions like this (Skype extension also used to cause problems like this) that are just 'dumping' their fragment, wherever they want. If they would carefully wait for the dom to finish loading and append at the end of the document, and avoid using document.write, there wouldn't be a problem. The VE dom elements are at a different position (necessarily) from where our old textarea used to be and this is exposing more of these careless plugins. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 22:49, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

So these are being progressively worked around in VE? Given it has to work in the messy world of dodgy addons - David Gerard (talk) 22:59, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I doubt it. There isn't much we can do about this. We bugged Skype for a year to fix their extension. Ppl installed abusefilters. Those are the steps that can be taken. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 01:19, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Issues can also be mentioned at Misplaced Pages:Browser notes#Browser add-ons & proxies (no VisualEditor reports there yet). Relatively few affected people will probably find that page on their own, but it may help others figure out what's wrong. PrimeHunter (talk) 01:30, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Wiping watchlist clean

For some reason I have 1800 articles on my watchlist. most of which I don't even want to a watch. Can anybody tell me how to wipe the slate clean?Tibetan Prayer 10:50, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Near the top of the watchlist page is a link "Edit raw watchlist". That displays the entire list in an editable text area, which can be cleared with Ctrl-A / Delete. Then click the "Update" button at the bottom and you're done. -- John of Reading (talk) 11:04, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Note that this is not reversible unless you save the old watchlist offline. There is no history showing the former content. See also Help:Watching pages#Controlling which pages are watched. PrimeHunter (talk) 12:06, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Nice one John, thanks.Tibetan Prayer 11:35, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

You should be able to save the old Watchlist online, as well. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 13:11, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Of course, but you probably don't want to save it in a publicly visible place (e.g., onwiki) if you don't want others to see what you watched. There's no problem with saving it online, in a private place (or publicly but encrypted). πr (t • c) 16:38, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Adding categories

Why can't we added categories to the articles? The category edit feature seems to be missing in all(?) the articles. Categories are listed at the end of the articles but the little plus and minus sign to add and delete them is missing. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 15:51, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

You need to enable the HotCat gadget in your preferences.--ukexpat (talk) 16:41, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

The feature had been enabled for all users, logged-in and IP, for several months. However, misuse by inexperienced users who thought it was a way to add comments on talk pages led to disabling it, returning to the original state of an option for logged-in users. Chris857 (talk) 16:49, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, I've been using HotCat for years and I was just adding some cat's to a couple of pages the other day, but today the plus and minus signs for adding/deleting cat's was missing. In any case, I went into my preferences add (re) added the HotCat feature. Should have checked it out first I guess. Thanks for your help. -- Gwillhickers (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:11, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

It sounds like you may think HotCat is the only way to add categories. In case you don't know, the standard way is to manually add the code described at Help:Category#Putting pages in categories. The HotCat gadget is an extra option for logged in users in the English Misplaced Pages. When HotCat was first enabled by default and then disabled due to problems with confused users, the software couldn't identify users who had originally enabled it manually, so it had to be disabled for everybody. PrimeHunter (talk) 21:18, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Mobile version, Main Page

At Talk:Main_Page#Mobile_main_page_lacks_Did_You_Know.2C_On_This_Day.2C_and_the_featured_picture_sections, a new User:Maloof200 has complained that the Main Page on the mobile version has only TFA and ITN and lacks DYK, OTD, FP, FL. User:Crisco 1492 comments there that its likely for conserving bandwidth. Is that the reason? In such case, can we at least have links to these sections so that users can choose and read if they wish to?
Also, is this the right forum; or are mobile version's issues handled somewhere else? §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 07:11, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes to a large degree it was limited to those 2 sections to basically make the main page as fast as possible on mobile (I'm talking 4 years ago now). To a large degree, that still holds. A clean, slim frontpage on your mobile device is simply a good idea, and let's be honest, how often do you read 'below the fold' when you open up Misplaced Pages to start searching for something ?

As to how it actually selects this content: The MobileFrontend first looks for blocks with the IDs #mp-tfa, #mp-itn and will then append any block with an ID that starts with #mf-. The #mf- logic is explained here and is considered to be the 'official' way to define which blocks you want in your frontpage. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 09:58, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Loading speed is a very powerful reason to keep it short & sweet. I don't know what the original proposer had in their mind. But for me; i hardly read TFA. There could be some people like me out there who are more interested in DYKs or others. Can't we at least provide a link to them on the main page itself? §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 10:51, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Cropping svg maps

As the map lab doesn't always seem that responsive I'll ask here. For the Geography of Franz Josef Land article, I think each section needs more localized maps for islands groups. Any chance somebody knows how to crop svg maps of File:Map of Franz Josef Land-en.svg in full scale. I think probably around 4 or 5 crops would suffice. I tried cropping in png from the scaled down version and it produces fuzzy labels because it isn't full scale. Svg won't let me save it full scale.Tibetan Prayer 11:35, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Right click the full resolution link and save it. You can edit this with Inkscape, but I cannot remember how to crop in any sensible way. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 12:08, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Aymatth2 has kindly produced some.. Thanks anyway!Tibetan Prayer 15:29, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Cropping a SVG is easy. You just adjust the viewBox attribute of the <svg> tag. The first two values offset the origin; the second two define the dimensions of the visible area. --Redrose64 (talk) 15:49, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Braille in the fall

Link.--Canoe1967 (talk) 12:49, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

It's the only edit by that user. User:Technoquat has trolled the help desk with dozens of socks created for the purpose. I suspect this is another. PrimeHunter (talk) 13:56, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

The user has been blocked by a checkuser. PrimeHunter (talk) 15:48, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Contents box

Is anyone getting a page wide contents box after they make an edit. Whenever I edit a page that has a TOC following the intro section, it ends up going across the entire length of the page rather than a small box. It probably just happened to this page when I clicked "save". Unless no one else sees it that way. --Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars 18:33, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Nope, not this page. But it is like that at Rose Colored Glasses (Kelly Rowland song), which I recently edited, as well as on my talk page. --Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars 18:35, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

All contents boxes seem to be stretched for me – Connormah (talk) 18:46, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

This might have been a temporary issue related to minor changes in table of content's HTML structure. Is it still happening? Is it still happening after you bypass your browser's cache? Matma Rex talk 18:49, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I'm getting stretched content boxes as well - see Zakee Wadood. Insulam Simia (/_contribs) 18:53, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

I saw the same issue - a cache bypass fixed it.--ukexpat (talk) 18:54, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

The cache bypass worked for me. Thanks. --Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars 19:27, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

using Chrome on W8 and cache bypass doesn't work for me, still having this problem. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 01:57, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

TOC display (trivial, but odd)

(Oops. Redundant to above section. This is what happens when you post a new comment by just clicking on the new section link, without looking at the rest of the page. postdlf (talk) 19:10, 18 July 2013 (UTC))

I can't figure out what's causing the table of contents in this article to display as a box extending the entire width of the article rather than a smaller box just around the section links. I can't find any code in the article regarding the TOC, and TOCs in other articles are displaying normally. postdlf (talk) 19:08, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm having the same thing happen on my user talk page. AutomaticStrikeout  ?  20:10, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Me too - mediawiki has been upadated to wmf10 today - maybe the reason? Christian75 (talk) 20:49, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

I seem to have this on all articles at the current time. --LukeSurl 20:51, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

A cache bypass fixed it. --LukeSurl 20:56, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Same here. Thanks Luke. AutomaticStrikeout  ?  00:22, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Using Firefox 1.5 (prefer it, don't ask why), neither a browser cache bypass nor a purge works here. However, Firefox 12 displays it correctly. Would really rather use 1.5 to browse WP. -- Tohler (talk) 01:07, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

I came here with the same problem after finding a purge or edit turns the problem on after ticking the 'Add an link for the lead section of a page' gadget; untick the box, purge or edit the article and it goes away. Using Chrome on Windows 7. Edgepedia (talk) 05:17, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm using Chrome both on an PC and OSX and it's displaying problems across several articles. Mkdw 08:08, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm currently using IE on a PC (blame work) but it was also happening on Chrome on a Mac. Cabe6403 08:49, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Bypassing my cache worked; Misplaced Pages:Bypass your cache. For chrome users: ⇧ Shift + F5 or ⌘ Cmd + F5. Mkdw 08:55, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Broken "contents"box

Can someone tell me why the "Contents" box at the top of Colt Ford spans the entire width of the page? I can't see anything in the coding that would be messing it up. All other "contents" boxes look fine to me, but the one on Colt Ford is weird. Ten Pound Hammer • 01:56, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

The same is happening on user talk pages and on some Eurovision and Junior Eurovision articles too. Wesley ☮ Mouse 02:02, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps #Contents box is relevant? Chris857 (talk) 02:07, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

• If and when this gets fixed, has any thought been given to CSS floating the contents box, to avoid the great swathes of vertical whitespace it otherwise tends to generate? Andy Dingley (talk) 09:38, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

  That would create sandwiching, and other layout problems - particularly for people browsing on small monitors, or in small windows. There is {{TOC left}}, for when an article would clearly benefit from a floated TOC. –Quiddity (talk) 02:45, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Table of Contents internal coding? I have no idea where to ask this but

was something done recently to the TOC coding? Now they stretch across the page from margin to margin (looking out of scale) and have a Hide/Show toggle switch... See Abraham Lincoln and George Washington. I just don't remember the TOC looking like this... Shearonink (talk) 17:13, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

See #Contents box. Chris857 (talk) 17:19, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Duplicated text on tags

Since gerrit:72984 is now live, could someone remove the text "]: " from the content of our tags? Helder 19:52, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Special:Tags is a better list, not all tags need modifying. Matma Rex talk 20:11, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

By the way, this was announced right here almost a week ago (#Tech News: 2013-29), you guys should start reading those, really. Matma Rex talk 20:19, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Oh, we would read them, were they not swamped by stuff that belongs elsewhere. Can't see the wood for the trees. --Redrose64 (talk) 21:54, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

 Done. Legoktm (talk) 23:26, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

MediaWiki:Histlegend and the watcher tool

Hi. MediaWiki:Histlegend currently looks something like this:

I'd like to switch out the "Number of watchers" link with a non-external tool (pointing to <https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Village_pump_(technical)&action=info#mw-pageinfo-watchers> instead). This requires a simple request on the relevant talk page, however this change will mean that the label ("External tools") is no longer completely accurate, as the info action is not an external tool.

Does anyone have thoughts about this? Does anyone care? --MZMcBride (talk) 20:49, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

• *shrugs* ... but yes, please update the link, given how flaky (and unnecessary, in this case) the toolserver is anyhow. Theopolisme (talk) 20:56, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
• Maybe just "Tools"? Legoktm (talk) 23:18, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
• (edit conflict) I've gone ahead and updated the link. If anyone has a better idea for the "external tools" verbiage, we can change that too. Fran Rogers (talk) 23:21, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
• Yeah I'd rather just call it "Tools" since it's possible that other things will also switch over in the future. —Soap— 01:48, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
• I like "Tools" too. Theopolisme (talk) 01:54, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

"Some parts of the edit form did not reach the server; double-check that your edits are intact and try again."

Originally posted at WP:HD; this seems a better place, so I'm copying to here. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 01:34, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi there. So I just upgraded from IE9 to IE10, and whenever I'm editing and I click on "Preview", I get the message "Some parts of the edit form did not reach the server; double-check that your edits are intact and try again." I've tried it on three computers and it's the same thing on all of them. I've had a look around online thinking this might be an inherent problem with Wiki and IE10 but I can't find anything. Any help would be very much appreciated. Thanks. Bertaut (talk) 01:16, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Do you use the classic "Edit source" way to edit the raw wikitext, or do you use the Visual Editor? If the latter: I'd recommend to check the list of open bug reports at https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/buglist.cgi?f1=cf_browser&o1=equals&resolution=---&v1=Internet%20Explorer&product=VisualEditor and if there is nothing listed that sounds similar, I'd ask on WP:VE/F which is the best place to give feedback for the VisualEditor (or to check for existing threads requesting the same feature/bugfix) so the developers can see it. --AKlapper (WMF) (talk) 11:17, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi. No, I use the "Edit Source" option. As far as I know, Visual Editor isn't available for IE yet. Bertaut (talk) 16:37, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Prototype for a new referencing tool... what do you think?

Hi, everybody. I've hacked together a working prototype of something that is like an improved WP:Reftoolbar (the dialog thing that allows you to fill out a form to insert citation templates into articles for things like books, journals, newspapers, or websites). At the moment my prototype is completely self-contained and does not "connect" yet to Misplaced Pages. I've pasted the full HTML file on pastebin if you wish to download and try it out. Just download and load the file into your browser (it seems to work well on up-to-date Firefox, Chrome, and Opera but I haven't tried Internet Explorer yet), there's a mock Misplaced Pages source editor. You'll have to pretend it's Misplaced Pages. The demo is only for "cite book". Creating the other three ("cite journal", "cite news", and "cite web") would be fairly easy starting with this code.

I'd be interested what people think about it in general. How they think it compares to the present WP:Reftoolbar. The main feature is that you can dynamically add authors and editors, which is really cool. There's also some error checking on certain fields. I plan on adding more. I have added a lot of references to Misplaced Pages articles, and I tried to let that experience guide me in designing the form. There's a certain level of complexity to the cite templates that makes a form-based interface difficult to design. I've tried to make the form as self-explanatory as possible, but there are a few potentially confusing aspects, especially for someone not already familiar with the cite templates. The current Reftoolbar has the same issues but I think I've improved the situation.

I plan on continuing to scrutinize, refractor, and encapsulate the code trying to improve the design and so forth. I think I've gotten the usability down as well as I can but so far I've only been using one other person for feedback. Under the hood, I think the code is fairly clean but there's still room for improvement here and there. If after seeing it, you'd like to collaborate on the code, let me know. I'd really be interested in design improvements relating to the CSS. For example, the code of the form uses a lot of <br style="clear:both;" /> that seem like they should be unnecessary but need to be there or they cause layout issues related to floating elements. At some point I'll need to figure out how to "plug it in" to the WikiEditor. I spent a large amount of time trying to do this on an old abandoned prototype but failed. Hopefully I'll be successful next time. Jason Quinn (talk) 07:58, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

switch editor.js

I've created a basic prototype for switching from VE to SE mid-edit: User:John Vandenberg/switch editor.js

At the moment it is attached to the real 'Save page' button. After the second 'save page' button is pressed, the unsaved content dialog ("data you have entered may not be saved") appears, but this can be prevented. If the user accepts this, they are taken to the diff with wikitext for additional editing. There are quite a few minor improvements needed, such as transferring the edit summary and save options from VE to SE, and I'll get to those soon, but im throwing it out for code review and alpha testing ;-) John Vandenberg 11:06, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

It is now has the features I would expect. It doesnt override the save button now. It adds a 'Source' checkbox in the save window, which when checked changes the 'review' button to go to a source editor diff. Only tested in Firefox 22.0 so far. I'll add documentation after breaky. John Vandenberg 00:39, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Documentation at User:John Vandenberg/switch editor, and the code is documented now also. Tested in Google Chrome. I don't have IE at home, so would appreciate if someone could test that for me. I'll go up to the office to fix problems if it isnt working on IE. John Vandenberg 03:14, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Since VE doesn't run on IE, I don't know what an IE tester would test.—Kww(talk) 03:20, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

I thought VE worked in some versions of IE? John Vandenberg 03:22, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

It is supposed to eventually be enabled in IE8 and IE9. Support for earlier versions isn't even in the plan. At the current moment, it doesn't support any versions of IE at all.—Kww(talk) 03:34, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

A simplier version, which is bookmarkletable, is at User:John Vandenberg/switch editor 2.js. John Vandenberg 04:19, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Power users are present and future of WP

This is just FYI to remember how the power users are the ones that keep Misplaced Pages tolerable and progressive. When checking the stats about who writes WP, the evidence is clear how a core group is doing most work; even 5% of all articles (over 210,000) were created by only about 10 people. Plus the future seems the same: only a relative handful of people are likely to volunteer to write, rewrite or expand so many articles with such precise detail, in tables, charts, images, videos, or sound clips, as well as clarified descriptions. At first I thought the emphasis on newcomers was a courtesy, but now I fear there is a newbie-mania obsession, with a focus to dumb-down the technical tools and help-pages to cater mainly to passing strangers, at the expense of ignoring, bypassing, or even totally insulting the crucial power users. Meanwhile, I hear stories of "doom and gloom" when "three people" quit in one crucial area of WP and "the end is near" (for that area) because Misplaced Pages is run by skeleton crews of a few users in each area, and so the loss of 3 power users can be a massive reduction in support personnel. In many U.S. businesses, the dedicated employees are given bonuses or extra vacation/holiday time at 3-year, 5-year or 10-year service dates. Anyway, we need to increase efforts to support the power users, as apparently, the newcomers are getting all the attention they could ever need (before they soon leave). Plus, we can develop more technical tools to encourage the power users about future progress, and perhaps attract more power users who realize their clever efforts are keenly appreciated. I am sorry I did not realize the power users had been so severely ignored, or even insulted, in recent years. -Wikid77 (talk) 13:57, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

You have more than five years service so I hereby award you two extra days where you are not obliged to edit, at the same remuneration as those days when you do edit. --Redrose64 (talk) 14:12, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree that power users are very important. Note that at the Meetings and Metrics meeting, the Foundation noted that it isn't even paying any attention to highly-active users. All they are tracking is the number of users with 5+ edits/month. See around 16 minutes into the Youtube video. I commented on the video at the listserv, but nobody responded. II | (t - c) 15:57, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

...the Foundation noted that it isn't even paying any attention to highly-active users. Really? Well that's a big "fark you" if ever I saw one.--ukexpat (talk) 17:07, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Huh? Please provide an exact quote in context.--Eloquence* 17:54, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

I struck the "any" part. If you start the video at 19:25 (see link above), the discussion gets into editor distribution, which the presenter admits has not been extensively studied in the past year. Using the Youtube transcript with some cleanup:

we haven't done extensive analysis over the past year on edit distributions; when we looked at this is part of the editor trend city what we did find is you know that the typical kind of like power law distribution; um... and i know this is doesn't answer your direct question but when we look at the gate at there was a disproportionate amount of the contributions that were still coming from two thousand seven and before, uh... suggesting that you know that classes in that was one of things that we found in the other two ... was that you know if you've stuck around this long is a pretty good chance that you're going to continue sticking around.

No metrics appear to be available on long-term or highly-active editors that I could find from stats.wikimedia.org - am I missing something? And I'd rather not hear that I should just run the analysis myself. That's the sort of response I've heard a few times before. I'll admit my above statement exaggerates somewhat, but I don't think it is an exaggeration to say that Wikimedia is paying close attention, on a strategic and metric level, to overall editors and other characteristics (gender ratios). No similar attention appears to be paid to long-term and highly-active editors (two additional subgroups). II | (t - c) 20:48, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

What I've been seeing lately is:

1. VE is working because there is no data saying it isn't.
2. (presented with data that looks absolutely terrible for VE)
3. That data is defective for $REASONS!

That is, it's presented in the form of a non-disprovable claim. This is not entirely satisfactory, for fairly obvious reasons. Is there data that (a) shows VE is working (b) doesn't obscure other data that would reasonably be expected to exist if that data had been gathered (c) would stand up to critical analysis? - David Gerard (talk) 21:15, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" --108.38.191.162 (talk) 04:51, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

@ImperfectlyInformed: I'm probably missing something, but I don't see what that New York Times article has to do with this. πr (t • c) 21:20, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Multitasking accident, thanks. Youtube is now blocked for me, so no precise link. II | (t - c) 21:25, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Quantitative data are in for the Visual editor.

According to meta:Research:VisualEditor's effect on newly registered editors/Results, the A/B test showed that new users using wikimarkup made more edits, more "productive edits", spent more time editing, and were far more likely to start editing than those started with the VisualEditor. "Newcomers with the VisualEditor were ~10% less likely to save a single edit than editors with the wikitext editor."

Now, of course, the results are highly biased by the fact that VisualEditor was (and, although some progress has been made, is) feature-poor, buggy, and problematic. Adam Cuerden 17:01, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Any data on experienced users? I'm especially curious to see what percentage have disabled it. postdlf (talk) 19:08, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:VisualEditor/Feedback#Some performance notes shows that roughly 90% of all edits by long-term editors or IPs are made with the source editor. We've seen an 8.6% decline in the number of anonymous edits. The only group that shows any signs of embracing the new editor are newly-created accounts, and they still use the source editor by a 2:1 margin. Misplaced Pages:Database reports/User preferences shows that 1302 accounts have completely disabled VE, up 30% since last week.

I suspect, but cannot prove, that the reason IP edits are down is that some of our more profilic IP editors have chosen to create accounts in order to disable VE. The most interesting thing about these statistics is that they show that while people with new accounts are a distinct group, IP editors and established editors are acting in extremely similar fashions. This suggests that most IP editors aren't inexperienced at all.—Kww(talk) 19:28, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

The 1302 number might not be complete. For example, you can easily block Visual Editor using Adblock Plus. I'm using that variant as it seems to be a bit faster, although I also have the gadget switched on in case I'm editing from some other computer. Using the gadget, the Visual Editor shows up but quickly hides. On the other hand, using Adblock Plus, the Visual Editor doesn't show up at all (i.e. it's completely blocked). --Stefan2 (talk) 23:26, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

User:Dragons flight assembled some data at Misplaced Pages:VisualEditor/Feedback#Some_performance_notes. I'll paste it in here. Adam Cuerden 19:32, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Data from Dragons flight (copied from Misplaced Pages:VisualEditor/Feedback#Some_performance_notes) Looking at the last two days (16 and 17 July) we see:

I'd prefer to let others comment on the data at this time. Adam Cuerden 19:38, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

WikEd invisible and HotCat gone?

Over on wikEd talk it was mentioned that WikEd disappearing was a problem with gadgets in general. I had unchecked WikEd from my gadgets for about a day. I rechecked it in gadgets today. And WikEd isn't there in my editing window. Still problems with the gadgets? — Maile (talk) 18:08, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Also, what happened to HotCat. I found it unchecked today, which is nothing I would have done. I just re-checked it, but HotCat isn't working for me. — Maile (talk) 18:09, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Have you bypassed your cache? And for the HotCat issue, see #Adding categories above.--ukexpat (talk) 18:57, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, yes, I bypass my cache regularly in any given day. And just now did it again to make sure. And while I'm typing this, WikEd is not there, even though it's checked under Gadgets. For what it's worth Firefox 22.0, Windows XP, Modern skin. I'm not sure what any of that would have to do with this. But WikEd isn't there. This is going on one more issue I've had with WikEd (and mentioned there) that makes it not a good tool for me. But I was going to run some tests on its latest version today, so I could fill out a Bug report at WikEd. But...no WikEd at all.— Maile (talk) 19:16, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Editor for TemplateData

Hi, I've translated a gadget created on frwiki to visually edit TemplateData. It's available at User:NicoV/TemplateDataEditor.js. To use it, simply add importScript('User:NicoV/TemplateDataEditor.js'); in Special:MyPage/vector.js. --NicoV 23:04, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

More explanations at User:NicoV/TemplateDataEditor. --NicoV 05:01, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

This is really useful! @Okeyes (WMF): Worth a look :) Theopolisme (talk) 05:42, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Edit intros not showing if editing entire page normally

Pick any article in Category:Living people. The edit intro (Template:BLP editintro) shows if you either (1) use the VisualEditor to edit the entire page, or (2) edit any section using any editor. It does not show if you edit the entire page using the "traditional" wiki markup editor. Please fix this (requires editing MediaWiki:Common.js). MER-C 04:25, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

This happens because VE plays with the tabs, adding the 'edit source' tab after Commons.js has finished. I believe the solution is to wrap that call in Common.js with 'mw.hook( 've.activationComplete' ).add( function() { .. });' . --John Vandenberg 06:16, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

WP extremely slow

I am experiencing extreme slowness. Anyone else? Nurg (talk) 05:26, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Yup; about an hour of slowness and random broken-ness. It seems to be fixed now. John Vandenberg 06:18, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

I would like to bring to the attention of the Misplaced Pages web technicians community of a particular problem with images representing mathematical symbols, when the user is not using the normal (black on white) colors.

Over here, my system colors are white on navy (like the good old WordPerfect 4 colors) which I find easier to read. In Windows Vista, in Personalization > Window Color and Appearance > Appearance Settings > Color Scheme: Windows Standard > Advanced... > Item: Window, I have set Color 1: navy (background) and Color: White (f9reground).

When in Firefox, in Options > Content > Fonts and Colors > Colors > Text and background, you check Use System Colors and then open a Misplaced Pages page containing images with images of mathematical symbols, like:

http://en.wikipedia.org/Cut_locus_%28Riemannian_manifold%29

in the first (Definition) section the "foreground" of the image (a) representing (M,g) appears gray and is difficult to discern. A little later in the same sentence in the image (b)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/7/f/5/7f5e50995d711b7b22a3752f74f7a724.png

the text is gray (#777) on white background and it is easier to read.

I do not suppose there is a way to make the image (b) appear with the user's System colors (though I do not see why its text shouldn't be black instead of #777). but certainly it shouldn't be difficult to have image (a) look like image (b).

I do not know how the images are created, but the code of the program that creates the images should not be too difficult to improve. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ΕΜΦ (talk • contribs) 06:38, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

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