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Is the community free to restrict an admin's use of some but not all admin tools?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

1. Is the community free to restrict an admin's use of some but not all admin tools?
2. If so, how? May this be done using the same process by which we typically decide user restrictions such as topic-bans, interaction bans, etc. (mostly by discussion at WP:AN or WP:ANI, sometimes accompanied by an RFC) or does the community need to establish a new process for this, or must constraining an admin's use of specific admin tools be left to ArbCom?

Some arbitrators have partially addressed these questions, but I'd like to hear views from others, and perhaps more from the below-quoted arbs too, if they wish.

Here Newyorkbrad says, "The Arbitration Committee has the authority, for good cause, to desysop an administrator. I can imagine circumstances in which an administrator has displayed poor judgment in one area, e.g. blocking, but is doing a good job elsewhere, such that I would prefer to restrict his or her use of blocking rather than to desysop outright. The fact that I don't recall a case where this was done suggests this is not a common scenario, but I don't see any reason to say a priori that it's not a remedy that could be voted where warranted."

Here Salvio Giuliano says, "...the community can restrict and sanction editors; it cannot, however, desysop administrators. This is an exception to the rule and, therefore, should be strictly construed. For that, in my opinion, the community may ban a sysop from using part of his toolset, provided this is not a way to surreptitiously desysop him – which means that a ban from using the "undelete" button is OK, but a ban from (un)deleting, (un)blocking and (un)protecting would not be acceptable. As it happens, it's something that has to be determined on a case-by-case basis."

Here Risker says, " I suggest that the community consider two courses of action: whether to initiate a discussion specifically about being restricted from editing any protected templates or starting a request for arbitration/desysop at the appropriate page."

Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 13:09, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

I am of the opinion (and have said this long before I joined ArbCom) that the "community" (more accurately, a set of people who show up at ANI) does not have the authority to restrict the use of administrator tools involuntarily. NW (Talk) 14:33, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

On what is that based? What policy or WMF directive says that our freedom to restrain the behaviour of users extends only to editors; that admin behaviour may not be constrained by the community using the same processes that are adequate to block and ban editors? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 15:19, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

I should say that this is my impression of current unwritten policy. We've been a project with administrators for 11-12 years now, and in that time, I do not think we have allowed an RFA to pass with restrictions, nor has any proposal to restrict an administrator from using their admin tools ever formally passed. That says something to me, that for better or for worse we have chosen to view the sysop toolset as one set that cannot be splintered apart by individual decisions of whichever dramaboarders happen to show up. You'll notice that even individual editors are very rarely sanctioned on enwiki because of ANI discussions, or if it is, it's almost always an editor who has previously been blocked or banned. Any action taken is often actually one administrator going ahead and then the noticeboards review the matter, not that the noticeboard comes to a conclusion and an admin implements it. This isn't the greatest argument in the world, I know. But I see some merit in the current system, as it allows an admin to take action that may or may not be unanimously supported without worrying about being pilloried (even worse than they already can be) by the editors who really hate him or her showing up (the same reason why standard admin recall procedures don't work that well). NW (Talk) 15:39, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Shouldn't this be in the subsection below, then? ;-) I mean, just because we haven't done something before doesn't mean we can't. Or is it mandated by the WMF or the five pillars or somewhere else in policy that we must do things the way we always have. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 15:51, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Should we?

No, I don't think so - if they cannot be trusted with one tool then they should not be trusted with any. That's not to say an admin doing X should be immediately de-sysopped, but they should be trained and put through probation or something until they are back to scratch, and if still no good then we need to consider full de-sysopping. GiantSnowman 13:17, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

I asked "May we?" So I've created a subsection for your answer to the question, "Should we?"

The present RfA process is incapable of thoroughly assessing in advance a candidate's competency in all domains of tool use, so it is inevitable that a number (most?) will turn out to be excellent and valuable in many areas of tool use, but less competent in others. Why should the community have to desysop an admin who's performing fine in most areas, just because they're having problems in one area? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 13:22, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

There's a vital difference between:

an admin not being very good at X, recognising that fact, and so choosing to not use any tools in that particular area.

and

an admin not being very good at X, not recognising that fact, and consequently mis-using/abusing the tools.

Which one of these scenarios is your hypothetical situation talking about? GiantSnowman 13:38, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Just the latter. Jimbo acknowledged his blocking of Bishonen was inappropriate and offered to put the block button aside for a year, and Hex agreed to do the same after the community made it clear he needed to rethink his use of the block button; but in cases where an admin doesn't recognise a problem, we may choose between restricting their use and a full desysop. See Risker pointing out those two options in the above quote. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 13:50, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

As I've repeatedly said, in general, I believe that when a plurality of remedies are all suitable to stop the disruption an editor is causing, only the least onerous one should be imposed, which means that when an admin is acting inappropriately only in a particular area or with a particular tool, there is nothing preventing the community from restricting him. I understand the objection that an admin who's not trusted to do x should not be trusted to be an admin tout court, but I disagree (the best solution would be to unbundle the sysop toolset, but, unfortunately, that won't happen any time soon): we have "technical" admins who do great things and are sorely needed and we also have admins who are great at doing repetitive tasks but who lack the people's skills required to deal with a person who is being troublesome but is neither a vandal nor another kind of malicious editor – and I don't see any reason why we should deprive ourselves of the good these admins can do to the encyclopaedia... Regarding the procedure to actually impose a sanction, I'd say that the current one governing sanctions on editors is adequate and see no reason to create a new process... Salvio 13:41, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

The community does have this power. I think it should be one of those things that a bureaucrat is required to judge consensus on, much like an RFA. The problem I have with this request is being aware of the context: Anthonyhcole has repeatedly indicated that he wants to restrict the blocking capability of a group of admins whose blocks he feels are disrespectful or insensitive to the plight of the "content creators", and I've been specifically identified as one of the admins he wishes to apply this new-found power to. I know Coren, Sandstein, and Fram are also on his hit-list. It would seem that the basic intent is a backdoor method of making admins afraid to make unpopular, but necessary, blocks. This makes me extremely leery of just having the discussions take place on ANI and having any admin that feels like he has found a rough consensus imposing the sanctions.—Kww(talk) 15:47, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Kww, I understand your concern. I hereby undertake never to initiate or support an attempt to restrict your Coren's, Sandstein's or Fram's use of specific admin tools. This isn't about you. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 16:08, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Bureaucrat closing seems reasonable to me. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 16:35, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Regarding my motives: I believe that if the community begins taking responsibility for guiding and modifying the behaviour of our admins in this way, to some degree the ugliness of RfA and the palpable fracture between the "admin corps" and "editors" will be ameliorated. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 16:56, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't actually believe that particular "palpable fracture" exists. We have a small but vocal group that believes that good content contributions should forgive all sins, and there is a fracture between them and the rest of the community.—Kww(talk) 17:26, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

I know you don't see it, but there is a problem with the relationship between the editing and policing communities. If, as you say, a small group is complaining loudly about your (collective) behaviour - that's a problem, and community imposed behaviour modification on those admins who are a problem (but don't recognise it) will help. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 17:36, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Because, of course, all the editors involved are blameless ... —Kww(talk) 17:43, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

No. Of course not. That's why we need you. But you're not all blameless, either. And when an admin has a problem in one narrow area, we need more nuanced options than just de-sysop or do nothing. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 17:59, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Why not? We can siteban people and topic ban them, and that could include a community decision of "you will be subjected to an indefinite block if you don't stop using tool X". Admins are people too, and that means that they should be subject to the same standards as other people. Not sure that it's a good idea in this case, but saying "no we can't do that" is going too far. 2001:18E8:2:1020:971:A37B:CBDE:B32F (talk) 16:43, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

I do not know whether "the community has this power". As it has never been exercised, I do not think it should be assumed that it has. To inaugurate it would require at least consensus at a CENT-advertised RFC, and a clear definition of what would be needed - e.g., discussion to remain open for a set minimum time, bureaucrat required to close. I would be against it, for two reasons:

• Theoretical: this is the case of "an admin not being very good at X, not recognising that fact, and consequently mis-using/abusing the tools." If, after the sort of discussion envisaged, the admin still will not accept that there is a problem, that to me would cast enough doubt on his judgement to make me unwilling to leave him with the other tools.
• Practical: the existing problem described in WP:Unblockable would become worse if any block of a popular user brought all his friends to ANI demanding a vote on whether the blocking admin should be deprived of the block button.

It is all very well Anthonyhcole promising that he will not use this against Fram Kww and the other three; others would not be bound by that promise, and a campaign to chip away at the limited number of admins willing to make difficult but necessary blocks would not be good for the project. JohnCD (talk) 18:05, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Salvio addressed your first point, above. Regarding your assumption that a mob of buddies that disapproves of one block will be able to deprive an admin of the block button, that strikes me as suspect. What I can foresee is a large number of editors getting sufficiently fed-up with a cowboy who too often blocks when equally or more effective but less-draconian options are available, and telling him/her to do something else for a while.

(For the record, I'm reassessing Fram in light of his recent good calls regarding Eric and Kiefer.) --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 18:27, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Administrators are treated differently from other users in one respect: we do not have a community desysop process. Repeated attempts to introduce one have failed, with two common reasons being that it could be easily abused by those with grudges and that it would deter admins from performing potentially controversial admin actions. Both problems would also apply to a process for restricting an admin's use of a particular tool. I wouldn't have a problem if ArbCom (which does have the authority to desysop) were to issue a remedy preventing an admin from using the block button. Hut 8.5 18:45, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

I believe this is the crux of the question. We do not have a community desysop process (but should have) and if we did have one, it should be something along the lines of an "inverse RfA", and not based on an AN/I model. Until we have such a process, and as long as the powers wielded by an admin remain bundled, the community cannot, it seems to me, effectively unbundle them by forbidding use of specific powers. Perhaps it should be able to, but I don't believe it now has that capability. The community can, of course, use moral suasion to convince an admin to lay aside use of one of those powers for a time (per the examples above), but it cannot force an admin not to have that power. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:38, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

We cannot take the power from them - only the WMF via ArbCom has that gift - but we can force an admin not to use a power, or enforce restricted use. For instance, if an admin is habitually having their decorum-enforcement blocks overturned by the community, we could allow that admin to block only obvious vandals and confirmed socks. We can do whatever we believe is best for our mission - unless it's proscribed by the WMF. If you can explain why I'm wrong on that point, please do so in the first section of this thread. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 01:51, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

It is impossible to "force" someone to do something unless you have the means to back up the order. The community does not have that means in regards to admins, therefore any attempt to "force" an admin not to use one of their abilities is doomed to failure, and is ultimately an exercise in drama, not in regulating the project. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:55, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

If persuasion fails to stop an admin from misusing a tool, we can make them stop by threatening to block them or actually blocking them, just as we make editors respect a restriction with the threat of a block. Kww did it briefly a day or two ago. The question is, should we do that outside a perceived emergency? Should we impose longer restrictions for a perceived intractable problem via a community discussion and/or RfC, without review or endorsement by ArbCom? I've come round to the view that ArbCom review is necessary. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 15:30, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

I've heard this assertion before from admins. In fact, it won't be known for sure if those with grudges will be able to abuse this process until we start using the process. Personally, I think it's highly unlikely. I think a well-moderated AN or ANI discussion is a pretty sound process, and as with any user behaviour discussion, we'll be looking for a pattern of behaviour, not just one or two reasonable errors. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 19:02, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Please point me towards this mythical "well-moderated AN or ANI discussion" ;) NW (Talk) 19:15, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

I beg to differ. A discussion on one of these noticeboards surrounding a controversial admin action tends to devolve into a mess. You don't think this proposal will be used by those with grudges? This proposal itself was inspired by a grudge surrounding a block discussed further up this page. People sympathetic to that editor want to be able to punish the admin concerned. Giving them the power to do so isn't going to improve that situation. Sure, we won't know for sure if the procedure will be used in that way unless we enable it, but that's like saying you don't know for sure if shooting yourself in the foot will hurt unless you try it. Hut 8.5 19:28, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

NW, I should have said "well-behaved". AN discussions are a far more civilised affair than they were just a year ago; and they can be even more controlled and focussed if you, the habitues, decided to exercise more self-control, as you did twelve months ago. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 01:51, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Hut 8.5, AN/ANI discussions sometimes become a mess, but most often they just fizzle into a frustrated deadlock - for good reason: we're not willing to deprive ourselves of an otherwise good admin due to a shortcoming in one limited area. By the way, I don't see this step being taken very often. But we can do it, so we should when it's more appropriate than doing nothing or de-sysopping. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 01:51, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

The reason ANI discussions frequently end up that way is because they are essentially unmoderated interactions between large numbers of editors with strongly held opposing views. In the case of the unblockables problem mentioned above the problem is that such editors have a number of sympathisers who are prepared to agitate or make excuses on their behalf. I don't anticipate that the number of admins subject to such restrictions will be very large either, but that doesn't really help the situation, because the mere threat of such a sanction will be enough to deter admins from performing controversial admin actions, and because the number of proposed restrictions will be much larger than the number of enacted restrictions (controversial admin actions will have supporters as well as opponents). Hut 8.5 10:34, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

I think I've addressed this below where I suggest the admin may appeal to ArbCom, who may lift or impose whatever restrictions they deem appropriate. Regarding "This proposal itself was inspired by a grudge surrounding a block discussed further up this page," I don't know what you're referring to there. I've been thinking out loud about this at WT:BLOCK, WT:AC/N and elsewhere with Kww, Newyorkbrad and others for six months. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 02:48, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Making people take these cases to ArbCom in the first place will largely prevent grudge actions, allowing an appeal to ArbCom afterwards won't. (Note this argument hasn't worked for community desysop proposals.) Regarding the other issue, you've evidently forgotten this thread from earlier this week, where you started talking about this proposal in a discussion about that very block. The reason this proposal is getting such attention now is because of that block. Hut 8.5 06:15, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

I still don't know what you're talking about. Are you saying I'm bearing a grudge that motivates this proposal? If that's what you mean, I'd prefer that you strike the claim. But I'm not sure that's what you're saying. Please clarify. I was prompted to start this thread by a comment from Risker, quoted at the top of this thread, which has nothing to do with Eric's block or grudges. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 07:22, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm not saying that you personally are motivated by a grudge. I am saying that this idea is attracting interest at the moment because of the block of Eric, and I am confidently predicting that people with grudges surrounding Eric would try to use this process to further them. Hut 8.5 15:53, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Ah. Thanks for clarifying. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 17:12, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

• If the community were not allowed to sanction an admin in any way, including a topic ban (via using the tools or not using the tools) then we will have successfully created "supereditors" that are above policy. I find this offensive. While I don't expect sanctions to be common, to say that there are no remedies available is already inaccurate as we've seen admin block admin without getting santioned themselves. Whether this line is, however, is fuzzy. The community can't desysop admin, because policy specifically states this power is given to Arb only, but other remedies do not seem to be the exclusive domain of Arb, per policy. That said, the community is not likely to be kind to people who file trivial requests for sanctions either, nor should it be. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 01:10, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Dennis: The community can certainly sanction an admin in many way: admins can be topic banned, for instance, they can have interaction bans placed against then, their editing can be restricted in any way conceivable except in regard to any of the bundle of abilities which comes as part of the admin package. To remove one of those capabilities is to create a "sub-admin" status, which is not in the purview of the community. Only ArbCom & Jimbo have the explicit power to desysop, and I would say that that power includes the abiliy to limit an admin's capabilities. Otherwise the community could (in theory) skirt that exclusivity by removing all of an admin's power except one trivial one, say, the power to view deleted files, on the technicality that having left the admin with one small part of the bundle, the community did not actually "desysop" anyone -- whereas the reality is that that admin will have been effectively defanged.

    No, as long as the bundle remains unitary, admins get them when a bureaucrat certifies a successful RfA, and loses them when they either give them up or they get desysoped by ArbCom. Once there's a community-based desysoping process in place, things will be different, but that's the way the system in now set up. Beyond My Ken (talk) 09:08, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

    • You haven't shown any policy that supports this. I can see why we are losing good admin every day. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 10:32, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
      • Dennis: It's a logical conclusion from ArbCom's explicit remit to desysop, which has not been extended to the community. Removing part of an admin's powers is a "mini-desysoping" which is not within the community's purview. At the this time, the creation of an admin is done by community consensus, certified by a bureaucrat, and desysoping is done by ArbCom. The policing of an admin as an editor is done by the community, but the policing of an admin as an admin can only be done by the entity which has the capability of backing up its policing with the force of policy, and that is ArbCom. If the comunity was to decide it had the authority to reduce an admin's powers, the case would immediately go to ArbCom, which is under no compunction to confirm the community's decision - they would decide the case on its merits. This being the case, it makes more sense to simply bring the case to ArbCom without the community step in between, since any decision the community makes is entirely toothless without ArbCom's support.

        BTW, I'm honestly confused by your final comment: in what what way does the community's inability to restrict specific parts of an admin's capabilities contribute to "losing good admins every day"? I share your distress at the recent loss of several high-quality admins, but I'm not seeing the connection. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:33, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

• The community can restrict an admin's use of an admin tool, and block or ban them if the admin defies the community. Yes, the admin can appeal against a long-term restriction to ArbCom. No, the community process is not therefore a waste of time because cases with high community support, including support from respected peers, will hopefully not be appealed. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 03:11, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

• You assert that the community has this power, but you've shown no policy basis for this assertion, whereas I have shown a policy rationale for it not having this power - and hoping that such a community action wouldn't immediately go to ArbCom is mothing more than wishful thinking - it would probably go there even before the discussion had concluded. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:04, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

• Some would go immediately to ArbCom, but what's wrong with that? ArbCom expects the community to carefully examine issues before they are taken to ArbCom, and the consensus from an AN discussion would tell ArbCom what the desired outcome from that discussion was.

  There is no policy supporting your claim that the community may not do this. You have an argument though; viz.: "Otherwise the community could (in theory) skirt by removing all of an admin's power except one trivial one, say, the power to view deleted files, on the technicality that having left the admin with one small part of the bundle, the community did not actually "desysop" anyone -- whereas the reality is that that admin will have been effectively defanged." Salvio explicitly addressed that in the quote at the top of this thread. De facto desysop wouldn't be tolerated by anyone, especially the admin concerned. A case approaching that degree of restriction would go to ArbCom before any resolution is reached at AN.

  Nothing in policy and no directive from WMF prevents us from doing this, and it would give the community (including other admins - many of whom give up adminning for the want of a simple community-based remedy such as this) a direct means of modifying the behaviour of an admin in one or two areas, without necessarily having to trouble ArbCom. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 06:50, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

• Anthony, my feeling is that you want this so badly that you are not taking proper notice of the arguments that have been presented against your position. As you implicitly admit, you have no policy to support your position, and you're ignoring the rather obvious argument that the only entity which had explicitly been given the task of policing admin behavior (as oppose to the editorial behavior of admins) is ArbCom, and since ArbCom was given the task of policing admins, and the community was not, the community cannot usurp what is in ArbCom's purview simply because it wants to. If you want this that badly, you'll need to change policy to create a community-based desysoping process, and you can't do that through an AN thread. Once the community has the capability of desysoping (which it does not now have, but should), then restricting admin's admin-related behavior is trivial, because it has behind it the threat of desysoping. Until that change, this proposal will amount to nothing, especially considering that there's no consensus even here for it. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:01, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Cheers. It's a little early for assessing consensus.

I certainly don't want this so badly that I'll ignore good argument. Earlier in this discussion I readily conceded admin restraint would be better left to ArbCom, when that seemed to be where the better argument was pointing. I again modified my view when it occurred to me that the existing right to request ArbCom scrutiny would provide enough protection against grudge actions. So, I'm more than willing to be persuaded by good argument, and I assure you I'm reading very carefully. And the "this" that I want isn't any specific process, just a more functional society here.

We don't need a policy or a WMF directive telling us we can constrain admin behaviour. You've got it the wrong way round. If you want to prevent the community from doing that, you need to find a policy or WMF directive telling us we can't. If you can't do that but still want to prevent this from happening, argue convincingly that we shouldn't. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 14:14, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

• I am not wrong when I say that "Misplaced Pages belongs to the community", but at the same time there is a particular hierarchy here (not in terms of importance but in terms of proven credibility and policies) and involving the community in this scenario would mean breaking that hierarchy and as such the pyramid with the strong base of credibility. Would you give a rollback or reviewer right to a newbie with 5 edits? why would you want to give the right to judge admin actions to any one else other than Arbcom? I have seen some ANI discussions which end up one admin suggesting other admin to not edit a certain article or to drop the stick while interacting with a certain user, these remain suggestions from an admin as given to another editor. For admin tools involving the general community through arbcom should be enough and admins should have enough common sense to not use tools in areas which they don't feel they have expertise in. If not then the community in the first place has not done a good job in RFA either so how do you trust them here?  A m i t  ❤  04:32, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

• My opinion is that where we (currently and traditionally) appoint admins based on our trust that they will not abuse any of their tools or judgement, if they fail in any one of these tasks, then that trust has been violated. I naturally believe that no sanctions should be applied without warnings, and that desysoping from the use of all tools rather than a ban from certain sysop areas should be the way to go if there is no improvement, but only as the last resort. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 04:27, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

• Individual users turning up on ANI and other noticeboards contribute to the process of the project, however they are not entirely representative of the community. The Arbitration Committee is the only proper entity that should have the mandate to desysop administrators or alternatively place partial restrictions on the use of their tools. Accusations made against administrators should be taken seriously when there is prima facie evidence of abuse. Only when this evidence is properly contextualized and analyzed by elected arbitrators, who are also among the most experienced users on the project, can we expect to have a semblance of propriety towards the entire process. — Nearly Headless Nick {c} 06:28, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Well put, Nick. Leaving such actions to AN discussion would be less bureaucratic and more efficient in most cases, and not add to the AC's work load, which is why I've been considering it. Above, Kww suggested discussions about restricting an admin's tool use should be closed by a bureaucrat, to protect against self-selection by a biased closer. But this would only increase the likelihood of an honest assessment of consensus.

Can the consensus view of whoever turns up at AN be relied on, though? I've been persuaded by your succinct argument, on top of those put above, that AN is too prone to mob rule and chance, and for that reason we should refer such cases to the AC for at least ratification. That is, though the community could take this on (and if/when we instigate a robust and reliable de-sysop process we may take this on), for now, we should leave the decision to the Arbitration Committee.

I'm very concerned not to add an undue burden to the AC, though, so I hope any such cases will be very well prepared before such a request is made. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 08:08, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

• Yes. There are even admins that have been justly and repeatedly blocked after becoming admins. I think that is clear evidence that admins are not immune to sanctions from other editors and/or by consensus. I don't see how restricting only part of their activity with such sanctions would be a problem. In fact, it would be obviously beneficial. If someone does not have enough clue to participate well in some area of this vast project, and they cannot reign in themselves, it's a good cause for the community to do that, with ArbCom as the last step, not the first. Admin actions also span a large domain. Topic-banning an admin is a good way of retaining their useful contributions while preventing the problematic ones; that applies to normal editorial contributions and to admin actions equally well. Someone not using his real name (talk) 09:14, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

• Hopefully, if a good case is made at AN, and enough of their peers urge them to, an admin with intractable problems in a limited area will agree to restricting their tool use accordingly. If they don't agree, then based on all of the arguments above I don't think we should enforce the restrictions with the threat of a block or community ban. If the admin won't voluntarily modify their tool use in line with consensus, ArbCom can be asked to look at it. A number of Arbs above have indicated a readiness to consider the option of specific admin-tool restrictions, where appropriate. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 15:30, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Interesting reading, Thanks Anthony. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:42, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Alan. I'm still wavering here. I'm starting to think the community might keep both options open:

1. Take the case to ArbCom if the consensus is uncertain or suspect or
2. Impose restrictions if a bureaucrat finds a strong clear consensus; and the restricted admin can immediately appeal to ArbCom - who may lift or impose whatever sanctions they deem appropriate.

I hope the right to appeal to ArbCom addresses the concerns expressed by NW, JohnCD, Hut 8.5 and Nick about grudge actions. I'd appreciate their (and others') thoughts on that. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 16:14, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

I am still too concerned to support this. The RfC process is better suited for this than AN would be, as it would attract a better cross-section of the community than AN. I don't dispute that the community has the authority to set up a well-managed process to restrict or desysop an administrator; I just am skeptical that AN/ANI has the authority or that a situation would arise that such a fairly-arrived-at consensus would come up that it wouldn't be just as easy for the Arbitration Committee to handle the matter by motion. NW (Talk) 12:45, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Sometimes a situation can be made clear enough in a careful discussion at a noticeboard. This recent case was resolved by the admin agreeing to put aside the block button for a year; but if he hadn't been persuaded by his peers, I think the evidence was clear enough for a reasonably safe community decision to require him to do so. But I would expect an unclear or complicated case at AN involving an admin's behaviour to go to RfC, just as such things do when they involve an editor's behaviour that requires a lot of teasing apart. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 14:14, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

NW, I don't have a problem if Arb decides to take a sanctions discussion that is at WP:AN and moves it to Arb, since Admin issues are obviously something Arb was setup to do, but that shouldn't limit the community from initiating them, nor adjudicating them in cases where Arb isn't involved. I wouldn't support desysoping, but there have been cases where I would support interaction bans, for instance. Arb isn't needed for those cases, and of course, the admin can appeal to Arb or Arb can vacate that decision. I don't see any policy reason for saying that basic problems, even if they involve the bit, can't be dealt with here, at the lowest level. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 10:52, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but interaction bans are fundamentally different from say, preventing an administrator from using page protection. I see your point Anthony that it is possible for a discussion to lead to a fair conclusion, but that to me seems like the exception rather than the norm. I would be far more comfortable with the situation if a special process were set up that requires more than the participation of ANI regulars and those who have a particular animus towards this particular administrator (past discussions). NW (Talk) 15:44, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Only the clear "snow" cases would end with a community-imposed sanction out of an AN discussion. Complicated cases will spin off to an RfC/U (and then back to AN or on to ArbCom), and disputed cases will end up at ArbCom. Community-imposed restrictions will only work where all concerned think it is appropriate. So, yes, it would only be effective in those exceptional cases.

I don't think there is much to worry about here. But I concede, we really won't know until someone tries it. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 16:18, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

• Yes. All editors are subject to community restrictions - topic bans, interaction bans, process bans - on activities that they are technically able to do. An admin simply has permissions that increases their technical permission, but all behaviour is still subject to restriction by community consensus. If the community decides that an admin needs to stay away from a particular process, but should retain other administrative permissions, then that's what should happen. If they violate that ban, their actions should be reverted ala WP:CSD-G5, and be subject to escalating blocks. VanIsaac_{WS Vex} 22:03, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
• No. I think that admins should be responsible in responding to friendly suggestions that they were not good at one thing or another and would be best to avoid those areas for now. There are a lot of tools in the admin toolkit, and I do not think it wise to try to specifically separate them. If you are responsible in having the toolkit you are responsible to recognizing your own strengths and weaknesses as well. If not, the best option is desysop. Apteva (talk) 06:42, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

I've invited input to this discussion at the village pump and WT:RFA. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 07:47, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

• Yes it is easy to say that any admin who cannot be trusted with one tool should not be trusted with any of them. In fact, I don't disagree with that statement. However, it creates a problem because it seems to communicate that problematic admins must be either ignored or desysopped. There has to be some middle ground, especially because desysopping is not easy to do. AutomaticStrikeout  ?  19:32, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

• In principle, yes; saying "we trust you to do anything except X" can be implemented whether X is unilateral page-moves, writing about Palestine, or deleting pages. There is no technical means for doing so, but there is no technical means to implement almost any other kind of restriction. In practice, though, I cannot imagine many circumstances in which something had got to arbcom without there being an unpleasant enough situation that the safer course of action was to desysop... Andrew Gray (talk) 23:33, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

User:Beyond My Ken, involved in this discussion with a clear bias toward the question, having made more posts to the thread than anyone bit me, the OP, thought it was appropriate for him to close this discussion, and leave his own thoroughly biased closing statement. I was not proposing a policy change, as his self-serving closing statement asserted. Since the answer to my main question (may we?) is clear, I agree that this thread can now be closed. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 07:04, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

For the record, here is the "biased and self-serving" closing statement, which no one but the Anthonyhcole seemed unhappy with:

NAC: Even though I have commented in this thread, I am closing it because (1) There is no admin action being requested; the proposal would have been better presented on WP:VPP rather then here; and (2) Despite the OP's opinion that "it's a little early for judging consensus", it's clear that the proposal has not gained any traction, even after the OP advertised it on WP:VPM and WT:RFA.

The OP is advised to present proposals for changes in policy to WP:VPP, since that is not the purpose of WP:AN.

Since this is a NAC, and since I have participated in the discussion, I've no objection if someone -- other than the OP -- wishes to re-open the discussion, but please be aware that it's been almost two days since any new comment has been added. The discussion appears to me to have died. Beyond My Ken (talk) 11:12, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Obviously, I could be wrong, but that seems to me to be a straight-forward, accurate and honest assessment of the situation. Beyond My Ken (talk) 17:46, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Request for sanction removal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Normally editors do not need to make requests before making edits, and as a copy editor and content creator, the sanctions which I am under are having severe consequences limiting my ability to make contributions to Misplaced Pages. The origin of the sanctions were what I thought of as a perfectly reasonable request to spell thinks correctly, and remove any guideline limitations that indicated that Misplaced Pages should make up spellings instead of using what reliable sources use. Yes I was vociferous in my request, but I would ask anyone who sees an error in Misplaced Pages to be twice as vociferous if needed. I have fastidiously adhered to the sanctions for six months, resulting in the loss of many edits that no one would ever complain about not being made, due to those sanctions. I therefore humbly request that the sanctions all be removed so that I can go on with making contributions. Apteva (talk) 03:15, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Let me paraphrase, and then please tell me if I understood you rightly. "Please remove all bans and other sanctions that currently apply to me, because..."? Or do you mean something else? Nyttend (talk) 03:23, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes. Here are the sanctions: Restricted to one account and "Apteva is topic banned indefinitely from modifying or discussing the use of dashes, hyphens, or similar types of punctuation, broadly construed, including but not limited to at the manual of style and any requested move discussion, and from advocating against the MOS being applicable to article titles." Both are preventing necessary edits. I am working with a keyboard that is missing a key, when it comes to making edits. It is never appropriate to topic ban someone because you disagree with a proposal they make. We do not topic ban because of the position someone takes, only if they are unable to make positive contributions to the subject. Apteva (talk) 03:26, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Apteva, I think it would be useful to your appeal if you would comment more specifically about your impressions regarding the complaints about your behaviour at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Apteva, and then User:Seraphimblade's close at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive244#Admin attention to an RFC/U, please, User:Gatoclass's close at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive134#Dicklyon, Spartaz's close at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive798#Dicklyon, and why your block within the past two months was made more restrictive by User:Black Kite and then by User:Beeblebrox. What is different now? Paul Erik 03:55, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

What is different is I know enough to shut up and edit. Apteva (talk) 04:29, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm concerned that you still seem to be justifying and rationalizing your previous actions. Describing the situation that led to previous sanctions "a perfectly reasonable request" raises red flags that you actually intend to continue the same behavior. Blocks and bans are prophylactic, and this indicates that yours may still be necessary. VanIsaac_{WS Vex} 04:54, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Not a chance. The behavior was pursuing the issue ad nauseum. While I am willing to defend the practice, I am not willing to annoy anyone myself. Which would any of us prefer, an encyclopedia which is correct, or one that is incorrect because various editors are bullied against pointing out errors? I am not interested in the drama. I can point out errors, but beyond that it is out of my control. The funny thing about Mexican American War is that over 90% of reliable sources use "Mexican War", rendering the entire discussion of punctuation moot. Apteva (talk) 05:49, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

As you clearly demonstrate in this very thread, you have not learned to "shut up and edit." Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:33, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

• (ec) An appeal against a sanction generally links to the discussion where the sanction was imposed. It is also advisable to not say "I was correct" (a perfectly reasonable request to spell things correctly) in the appeal because unless the intention is to re-argue the whole case, an appeal should work on the premise that the community was not incompetent. Johnuniq (talk) 03:56, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Only commenting on the "restricted to one account" bit. Looks like the issue with your Delphi234 account was that you were judged to be using it improperly, apparently circumventing previous sanctions or something like that. There's nothing better than a declared alternative account for legitimate uses "security", "maintenance", and "testing and training"; if the Delphi userpage contained a prominent link to your Apteva userpage and vice versa, you obviously wouldn't be using it improperly, and if people thought you'd remove it and start socking again, you could demonstrate good faith by asking that the userpage be fully protected — you can't edit your own userpage when it's fully protected, so people would be able to see that you weren't planning to obscure the connection betweenthte accounts. I see no reason to prohibit that specific use, but I have no comment on further one-account restrictions or on the restrictions unrelated to sockpuppetry. Nyttend (talk) 04:00, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

The issue with my primary account has never been with improperly using alternate accounts, but was to monitor my observance of the topic ban, and was never necessary, as I would never normally make any of that sort of edit from that account anyway. I have never socked. Ever. Using an alternative account appropriately is not socking. Socking is completely different. We allow alternative accounts because they are necessary, and I wish to return to appropriately doing so. Apteva (talk) 04:29, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose per block log. --Rschen7754 04:05, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
  • The last block was for complaining about incivility. Is that wrong? It was clearly an inappropriate block because it was solely punitive and not preventative at all. I had already agreed not to use ANI/AE to complain abut incivility. Apteva (talk) 04:29, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

• Except, you seemed to be using frivolous civility complaints as a weapon against opponents of your views on the MOS. This BATTLEGROUND approach to the subject has generated a lot of disruption and your failure to realize the problem with that is why you were blocked. I do not adhere to the idea that an editor needs to admit wrongdoing to be freed of editing restrictions, but I do think requesting a lifting of all your sanctions just a few weeks after coming off a long block for your treatment of opponents in the underlying dispute is a bit premature.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 05:32, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

• It is important to allow all points of view and I have never targeted anyone who has a view either in agreement with me or opposed to me. I am not here to be treated with incivility, and it is only incivility that I have objected to, not someone's point of view. On that everyone is welcome to state their point of view, and consensus prevails. I am bringing the appeal now because I want no doubt about commenting at the RM discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:Cut and paste move repair holding pen, which I probably could anyway, but with the sanctions removed I would not have to wonder. And no, I am not the IP who did comment. Apteva (talk) 05:43, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

• I detest to see a legitimate editor under sanctions and was initially inclined to support, but changed the mind on discovering of WP:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive798 #Dicklyon about two-months old. Although there are some problems with the guy mentioned, one should never attack a fellow editor on a noticeboard with a wall of text consisting almost entirely of irrelevant linguistic stuff and external links instead of diffs and ]s. Sanctions shall remain until the editor in question learned more constructive ways of defending himself and his point. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 06:55, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Already have. As mentioned, I am waiting for the civility enforcement RfC to make a recommendation and will adhere to whatever it says. I am planning on helping move the RfC forward but have not had the time to do so yet. It has not had any edits since February, as I recall. Apteva (talk) 07:33, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

—Neotarf (talk) 10:09, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose I confess that I have not made a particular study of this, but it's my impression that although Apteva has insisted that it is necessary for him to use an alternate identity to edit certain articles or subjects, he has never made it clear exactly why that is, simply asserting it as a fact, without acceptable explanation. I cannot see why this would be, especially if the secondary ID is linked to his main ID (as sockpuppetry policy requires). I'm afraid that my AGF has been streteched, thinned out, and broken by Apteva's behavior, and I can no longer believe much of what he says. For these reasons, I oppose removing the sanctions on his editing. Beyond My Ken (talk) 11:20, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
  • That is him or her, he or she, his or her, thank you. Alternate accounts are not required to be linked and can not be linked where privacy issues are concerned and they are not linked. You are blocking my primary account, which makes no sense. Block this account and there are many articles that I would not be able to edit. Neither block benefits Misplaced Pages. I have at all times maintained a high level of integrity and am a valuable contributor. I adhere to all guidelines and policies. If any one has a problem with my edits, I have a talk page and welcome criticism. Statements such as "I can no longer believe much of what " are patently ludicrous, and have zero credence. Point to one diff out of 10,000 edits that was not in good faith, and that was an example of not being believable. For example, I was not unblocked because an admin did not believe me when I said that I was not going to bring ANI actions for civility. Well I am unblocked now, and have I? No. Would I if I had been unblocked? No. This lack of faith is completely, 100% undeserved. One of our rules is to ignore all rules, and one of my options is to simply ignore the sanctions but I have not done that and that is a measure of my integrity. It should be patently obvious that I can not maintain privacy and explain why I am doing that and how, because I could only do so by giving up that very privacy that I am protecting. I edit solely under the condition of anonymity. Apteva (talk) 15:40, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

• I'm all for removing sanctions from users who've shown that they're no longer necessary. However, considering that in your very request to lift sanctions you've repeated the same problematic views that got you topic-banned in the first place, I'm not sure this would be a great idea. Furthermore, your comment that "Yes I was vociferous in my request, but I would ask anyone who sees an error in Misplaced Pages to be twice as vociferous if needed" actually contradicts the WP:ICANTHEARYOU portion of the disruptive editing guideline:

  In some cases, editors have perpetuated disputes by sticking to an allegation or viewpoint long after the consensus of the community has decided that moving on to other topics would be more productive. Such behavior is disruptive to Misplaced Pages. Believing that you have a valid point does not confer upon you the right to act as though your point must be accepted by the community when you have been told that it is not accepted.

  Could you please answer the following questions: 1) Do you understand why your continued advocacy of your positions on dashes, etc., was considered disruptive? 2) If your sanctions are lifted, do you plan on returning to said advocacy? 3) Could you please give some examples of dash-modifying edits you'd like to make?

I'll say right here that I don't see myself supporting a lifting of the sanctions, but I could possibly support allowing you to make uncontroversial changes to dashes in articles... but that depends on your answer to the third question. — PublicAmpers& 17:06, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

1. Yes, even though it was not. Airports and comets are not spelled with dashes, only hyphens. I can propose that, but decisions are made by consensus.
2. No, I am considering that there is a moratorium on dashes and hyphens until next year. I am hopeful that Misplaced Pages will start spelling things the way everyone else does, and that does not seem to be too much to ask.
3. Often people use hyphens, dashes, and minus signs incorrectly, and as a matter of discussing proposed name changes and as a matter of copy-editing it is helpful to correct errors when they are seen. It is horribly draconian to not be able to make simple corrections. During the moratorium I will not be proposing name changes, but should be expected to contribute input to any that have been proposed.

Sorry, I should've been more clear in my third question: Could you please show some sample edits that you'd make? Five to ten should suffice. — PublicAmpers& 20:47, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Changing a minus sign to a dash or hyphen, removing spaces around an mdash, adding or removing spaces around ndashes, changing hyphens to dashes in date ranges, such as 1819–1922. None are controversial. I do a lot of RCP so I see everything imaginable. We allow minus signs for negative numbers, but I would never change any to or from that, as that is not important, but when a minus sign is used for a dash or a hyphen that is significant and does need to be corrected. Apteva (talk) 21:15, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose Apteva has made it clear enough that they believe they are smarter than everyone else, constantly lecturing others even when it is abundantly clear consensus does favor their position. No valid reason is given for ifting these sanctions. The supposed privacy concern is nonsense since it is known what the pother account is. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:26, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
  • The valid reason is to allow valuable edits that might not otherwise be made for some time, if ever. I have been watching one error that I would have fixed and it still has not been fixed. There are many others. I have never used intelligence as a criteria for editing, and recognize that all of us do our best to contribute. It is often possible to learn private details about editors but that falls into the category of outing and is not permitted. We simply do not tell editors not to fix things. The bottom line is there are no positive benefits from the sanctions and serious consequences, almost all of them unintended. Removing them would clearly benefit the project. Apteva (talk) 20:25, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

There is no outing concern here, that is a lie. I don't recall the name of your other account off the top of my head but I recall it being specifically mentioned, by you I might add in previous discussions of these sanctions. Your apparent compulsive need to argue endlessly with everyone is plain for anyone to see and does you no credit. This is part of why you have been having such trouble and it's sad that your ego apparently makes you unable to see that you are your own worst enemy. If you could just get over yourself and shut up about the sanctions for a while (and maybe consider the possibility that you have been wrong once or twice in your time here) you probably could get them lifted. As long as you continue to act like this you will continue moving further, not closer, from unrestricted editing. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:03, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

So, it took me about one minute to find this. There we go. Your other account is User:Delphi234, and it is blocked per the near unanimous conensus in this discussion] some six months ago. So, you can just cut the crap about there being a privacy issue at play here. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:10, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. Apteva is both interested and involved in the project. I knew nothing about Apteva a couple months ago, and I thought an enforcement boomerang would be too much. The follow on trip to ANI suggests a continuing problem. Since then I've seen not only continued good but also continued trouble. Recently there were issues at Talk:Go (game)#Move? (see edit history). Apteva has clear and consistent views and vigorously defends them, but those views don't always align with the community. Despite Apteva's claims, I doubt Apteva understands the reasons why the restrictions were imposed: it is not the belief but rather the behavior. He has raised the understanding and unreasonable restriction arguments before, but they have not flown. (See Bwilkins decline at User_talk:Apteva/Archive_7#Next steps; Bwilkins doubts Apteva's prior claims to understanding.) I want things to go right for Apteva, but there needs more uneventful history. Glrx (talk) 22:02, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Once again, that is he or she, please. So the result is I continue editing with one hand tied behind my back and can not contribute as much as Misplaced Pages needs? What is the point of that? Who benefits from that? No one. Who suffers? Everyone reading Misplaced Pages, and readers out number editors by 1000:1. The edit that I am watching is on a page that is viewed 3500 times a day, 100,000 times a month. As the months tick away, that is one, two, three, four, five, six hundred thousand times that viewers have been presented with erroneous information. Is that what everyone here really wants? For that to continue for another six months? Does anyone really understand how ludicrous this is? Apteva (talk) 22:13, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
    • Actually, unless you specify what gender you prefer to be addressed as, it's up to the other editor what form to use in a situation where gender isn't known. Your attempt to force other editors to bend to your preferences is typical of your attitude and your behavior throughout Misplaced Pages, and is indicative of the root cause of your sanctions. You clearly have no plan to change your behavior one whit which is why your sanctions should not be lifted. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:30, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. as a fellow grammar nazi, on the basis of uncorrected spelling errors in Apteva's request.--R.S. Peale (talk) 04:53, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
  • That spelling error was introduced deliberately as an example of a spelling error. Apteva (talk) 06:13, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Proposal 2

Apteva is topic banned for six months from proposing or discussing the use of dashes, hyphens, or similar types of punctuation in article titles. All other sanctions are vacated.

What this would do is give me my keyboard back and I would not bring up or discuss moving Mexican American War or other such titles for the balance of the sanctions. By making it a definite time, it is trivial in six months to extend it if needed, but it would not require bringing the same appeal here again if no problems occurred. It would limit the false information from being seen a million times, limiting it to only 635,000 times (add 3,500 for each day it takes to implement this sanction amendment). Since the sanctions have already been in effect for six months, it is effectively a one year sanction. Apteva (talk) 23:12, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Question Solar power and wind power both fall under the realm of renewable energy. Delphi editted wind and Apteva editted solar, which seems to be the cause for the topic overlap that the single-account restriction was based on. Is it possible, if the sanction is lifted, to create an alternate account that edits strictly renewable energy topics and then use Apteva or Delphi to edit everything else on the 'pedia? Ishdarian 00:05, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

No, the single account restriction was to see if I was violating the topic ban, and solely for that reason. It is not needed, and has severe consequences to the encyclopedia. Apteva (talk) 03:43, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

It is totally unreasonable to believe that the banning of a single editor, no matter how productive he is, has "severe consequences to the encyclopedia", and that fact the you honestly don't seem to understand this is part of the reason why your sanctions haven't a chance in a million of being removed as a result of this thread. It is also the reason why I doubt you will follow my prescription below, as you seem to be incapable of seeing your place in the big scheme of things. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:19, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Humility. Look into it. There have not been "severe consequences" anywhere but in your imagination. You have failed again and again to provide a logical reason why you need separate accounts for editing certain topics, and you did not keep the two accounts you had properly seperated. That is why you were limited to one account, and your inability to comprehend the problem and insistence that it was not needed and wrong are indicitave of the other issues you have had as an editor here. We're all wrong sometimes, it's the abikity to learn from ones mistakes that helps us grow, on WP and in real life. If instead you rationalize your mistakes and blame others for them, there can be no growth. But if you already believe you are infallible I guess that isn't a very compelling point. Beeblebrox (talk) 04:25, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

All of us are equally important to the project. Without us it would not exist. I certainly recognize my faults and always encourage anyone to point out anything they see me do that is inappropriate, on my talk page so that I can be aware of what was done, and take corrective action. Sure I have a healthy ego, but there is no crime in that as long as I keep it to myself, and do not use it to belittle anyone. I obviously recognize that I could be wrong on absolutely everything. That is why we discuss things, so that we can learn what is right and what is wrong. Apteva (talk) 06:03, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Apteva, you make some hard to believe statements. You say above that the restriction to one account has severe consequences to the encyclopedia. What are the severe consequences? Why can you not make the edits you need to make to avert those consequences from your Apteva account? You also say that readers are suffering from you not being able to make an edit on an article that is viewed 100,000 times a month. What is the problem with this article that readers are suffering? GB fan 11:20, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Proposal 3

Apteva's previous restrictions are to remain in force indefinitely. Apteva is further topic banned from proposing the removal of those sanctions for a period of six months from the day this discussion is closed, and is limited to one appeal every six months after that. Any violation of this topic ban in any area of Misplaced Pages will lead to a block. If the ban is repeatedly violated each block will be sharply escalated from the previous one. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:26, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. It is abundantly clear at this point that Apteva will continue to attempt to circumvent the strong consensus that placed and still supports their topic bans so long as we indulge them, so let's not indulge this foolishness any further. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:26, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose- I dislike this business of systematically depriving people of all their avenues of appeal, just for appealing. Reyk _YO! 23:36, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

If the appeals (this is not the first one by the way) had ever presented logical, compelling reasons to lift the sanctions I would agree with you. They have not, so this is all just a waste of time and energy. ArCom regularly places such restrictions as an alternative to just indef blocking users who make nuisance appeals like this one, just trying their luck over and over without showing any improvement or even an understanding of why the sanctions were imposed in the first place. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:42, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support The Editor appears to not realise what the issue was which led to the original block. This measure will leave a sufficient amount of time such that the editor can get some perspective on the issue before filing another request. IRWolfie- (talk) 00:36, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support essentially per Beeblebrox's multiple comments, even if some are more strongly worded than I would have put it. Apteva demonstrates even in this appeal the type of problematic interaction style that is the root of previous sanctions and blocks. There seems to be a lack of self-awareness about how the style comes across to others. When Apteva disagrees with someone, it's not a difference of opinion in Apteva's mind; it's that Apetva is right and the other person is wrong, and that's that. True to form, he/she reverts an admin in order to unclose the discussion and notes that no opinions in the above discussion were "factually based". Apteva is...persistent. Paul Erik 01:03, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

That is soooo typical of the hard-headed foolishness I have come to expect from Apteva. I'm beginning to be more inclined to initiate a ban discussion, you can't work with someone who is incapable of admitting they ever have been or ever could be mistaken... Beeblebrox (talk) 02:04, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support - This editor's constant harping on his sanctions (instead of simply editing constructively and responsibly and allowing the removal of his sanction to come about naturally) is disruptive. As someone mentioned above, he's his own worst enemy. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:44, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

The focus needs to be on how we can work on improving Misplaced Pages, not on how we can keep someone from contributing. This proposal is moot because I am already restricted to appealing the sanctions once every six months (from 11:43 January 6 UTC, so the first appeal could have been done almost two weeks ago). However, as the sanctions are not needed, and are hurting Misplaced Pages, it would be better for everyone to set an expiration date instead of everyone having to go through the same exercise again in January. Apteva (talk) 03:39, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

As an observation, we have probably millions of occasional editors (having done one edit), and right now about 3200 to 3500 every month who make over 100 edits, myself one of those. What can I do to become an editor just like every other, with no restrictions, just like everyone else? Apteva (talk) 04:05, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Edit constructively and humbly, stop being convinced that you're always right and everyone else is wrong and that you are somehow necessary for the survival of Misplaced Pages, stop arguing with everyone about everything, admit when you're wrong, work toward compromise instead of getting your own way and stop trying to get your sanctions lifted. (paradoxically, this is probably the best way to get your sanctions removed). In other words, go about your business, don't worry about the subjects you've been sanctioned for, contribute productively to the encycylopedia, and understand what WP:CONSENSUS really means. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:12, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Done. But bear in mind that I have created over 100 articles, and helped bring multiple articles to GA status (and helped with FA ones). Sure some times things get done by someone else, but sometimes that is not the case. I have as I said been monitoring an error that I would fix in 2 seconds if I could, that now has been viewed 635,000 times without being corrected. Anyone else could correct it, but no one has. Anyone could click on the reference supplied and said hey that is not what the article says and fixed it, but no one has. Why is that? Apteva (talk) 04:28, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

You say "Done", but your very answer is in direct contradiction to my advice. Don't you see that? Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:04, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

As a collaborative project the contributions of all of us are equally valuable. No contributor can be said to be more valuable than another, because without all of us the encyclopedia would not exist. I have been restricting myself to the areas that I can work on, for six months now with no deviation. I just want the restrictions to end, or at least have a definite time when the sanctions will go away. Apteva (talk) 05:35, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

And that, right there, is the fundamental error in your thinking. Some contributors are inherently more valuable than others. Specifically, contributors who work collegially with others and seek to find consensus are infinitely more valuable to this project than even the most productive who act like they are right and everyone else is wrong, and refuse to abide by collaborative editing process. VanIsaac_{WS Vex} 07:08, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Remind me to create an infobox saying this editor is one that is infinitely more valuable than others. Or one that says, this editor is the 700th most valuable editor, and is infinitely more valuable than the 5000th most valuable editor, who in turn is infinitely more valuable than the 50000th most valuable editor who made one edit that no one else noticed and helped the readability of one of our articles. No, in a collaborative project, we do not assign value to our participants, and treat everyone with equal respect, whether they are Jimbo or an IP editor makes no difference whatsoever. Yes some people contribute more than others, and some are more difficult to deal with than others, but that never affects the respect that they deserve. No one is paid here, and it is only by our good will that any of us make even one edit. By thinking that some of us are "infinitely more valuable than others" strongly discourages anyone from wanting to participate at all. Only by recognizing that all of us are equal, from the IP editor who makes one edit, to the 100,000 and million edit contributors, all of us completely and entirely equal, do we encourage participation and welcome editors. Apteva (talk) 15:30, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support @Apteva: There is no requirement to stop believing that you are correct and everyone else is wrong, but you must stop talking about it. It is a disgrace that so much time and energy has been squandered in arguing over Apteva's two accounts and Apteva's views on article titles. Just stop. If making another appeal in six months, please outline how changing the restrictions would benefit the encyclopedia (for example, how would discussing dashes help). Johnuniq (talk) 07:17, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
• As stated before, this proposal is moot because it does not add anything to the sanctions that are already in place. We allow alternative accounts because they are necessary, and I have just as much of a right to that requirement as everyone else. But anyone thinking that an error that could have, and would have, been corrected in January, and has since been seen 635,000 times is acceptable because the only editor who knows about the error has too much integrity to create an alternative account, and fix it in 2 seconds really needs to re-examine why we are here. Six months from now, if it is still there, it will have been viewed over a million times. No where is it acceptable to allow known errors to be viewed that many times. Apteva (talk) 15:30, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

I keep wondering if at some point you will notice that literally nobody has your back on any of these issues and nobody agrees with your reasoning. I mean, the above comment is just a load of nonsense in every single aspect. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:25, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Apteva, if the error you keep referring to relates to whether a mark of punctuation should be a hyphen or an en-dash or a minus sign or the like, you should permanently ignore it; whether or not it is an error, it is infinitely less important than you think it is. If the error is substantive, as you suggest above, and it is not related to a topic from which you are topic-banned, the only reasonable course is for you to fix the error before you post anything else on this page. Newyorkbrad (talk) 19:43, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support - This gaming of the system has gone on long enough. If this user needs to be forced to accept their restrictions due to their behaviour then so be it. If this user had merely waited out the appeal period and edited constructively then this would not even be happening, but they didn't and here we are! PantherLeapord (talk) 23:47, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Support what? All of the sanctions that are proposed are already in effect. There is absolutely nothing the proposal would change. I have in fact waited out the appeal period and edited constructively. I will in fact wait out the next appeal period and edit constructively, and the next, if necessary. Apteva (talk) 23:57, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
    • In case you are not aware, the above reads like a promise to do whatever is necessary to resume the old arguments as soon as possible, no matter how long it takes. Johnuniq (talk) 00:15, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
      • Apteva may not have thought this through: should his allowed appeal after 6 months be as non-substantive as the current one was, the community can easily extend the appeal period to 1 year or longer, and should that pattern continue to be repeated, it's likely that a total site ban would follow. The Misplaced Pages community does not have infinite patience, and there comes a time where even those with far more ability to WP:AGF than I have can no longer tell the difference between unintended disruption and deliberate trolling. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:28, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose I understand that Apteva's attitude is not the best, however, he wishes to do what he thinks is best for the project. Looking over his actions leading up to the topic ban and account restriction, I am fully in agreement that the topic ban on dashes et al should remain in place. The one account restriction puzzles me; maybe I'm just not seeing what everyone else saw/sees. I found one instance from 2008 in which Apteva/Delphi234 overlapped and caused an issue, which was compounded by the fact that, when questioned by other editors, Apteva did not confirm that the two accounts were the same person. However, this was 2008. I was unable to locate any issues with two accounts since then. In an email I received from Apteva, he states that he uses two accounts for privacy reasons, and that's okay as long as the accounts aren't used for malicious purposes. I think that Apteva should be allowed to operate his present two accounts with the understanding that any sanctions earned on one account also apply to the other and that the two accounts should be given a wide berth in their edits. Reblocks are cheap, so if he misbehaves with one account or the other, he can be blocked on both and end it at that. Maybe a little bit of rope could do the entire project good? Ishdarian 00:44, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Should this be accepted I can assure everyone it will not be abused in the slightest. I have no interest in this appeal being nothing but a clean, no blocks, no issues, "I recommend removal of sanctions" the next time this comes up, so I really implore everyone who has any issue with my editing, even the slightest, to bring it up immediately when it occurs with me on my talk page so that I can take corrective action. What attracted me to Misplaced Pages five or six years ago or whenever it was, was to take pity on anyone who was reading misinformation, and correcting it. I have not been able to find my first edit, but I think it was correcting a date or time in an article. I still fix things I see that are incorrect, but have branched out to more content creation, and article quality improvement (moving every article towards FA). Apteva (talk) 02:08, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
    • @Ishidarian: Apteva has claimed privacy issues for a long time, but has never adequately explained what he means - and he's been asked to many times. He's already had a considerable amount of AGF and "rope" extended to him, which is how we've ended up in the current situation. I'm afraid that, given his behavior in this very discussion, his assurances are not at all believable to me.

      Then, of course, there's the matter of his WP:CANVASSing for your comment here via e-mail. This is not new behavior on his part, as can be seen here and here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:20, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

      • Thank you. I just want to make the clarification that he did not request I make a comment; I asked a question in the Prop 2 above and he responded to my question a bit more in-depth via email. I was satisfied with the answer and that's what brought me here to comment. Ishdarian 04:13, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
        • OK, thanks for the clarification. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:59, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
• In case there is some doubt that this proposal is necessary, here is a review of the appeals so far (and I might have missed some):
  • Appeal to Arbcom 12 January 2013, result: unanimously declined
  • Appeal 29 January 2013, result: declined by JamesBWatson
  • Offwiki appeal to Beeblebrox, result: declined
  • Appeal at AE 15 May 2013, result: declined
  • Appeal 23 May 2013, result: declined by SirFozzie
  • Appeal 24 May 2013, result: declined by Bwilkins
  • Offwiki appeal to Beeblebrox, result: declined with email block added to the existing block
  • Appeal 16 July 2013, result: declined twice (closed by Kingofhearts but reverted by Apteva, then closed again by Future Perfect at Sunrise)
  • Appeal 17 July 2013, result: Apteva reverted the close him/herself
  • Appeal 18 July 2013, result: declined. At some point this needs to stop. Paul Erik 02:29, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
• Weak Oppose per Reyk, and specifically the single-account restriction. The tendentious punctuating and refusal to drop a wooden device have led Apteva into a corner they cannot easily extricate themselves. Full wiki-break might help. Narrowing the appeal options will only make him more frantic. Unless there is evidence of him using socks abusively, I don't see why this restriction is necessary. Frankly, I don't see how anything short of a full ban/block (for a definite period) with Apteva voluntarily agreeing not to appeal during that time is going to make a difference, here. And Apteva will undoubtedly perceive these (or any) sanctions as punitive, rather than preventative. (Which only exacerbates the problem) --R.S. Peale (talk) 18:40, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support, though I wish I didn't have to. I think Apteva means well, but that only goes so far. Apteva, I've encouraged you before to think hard about why it is that a series of increasingly escalating sanctions have been applied to you. And no, it's not that everyone else is a fool, nor that we're all out to get you. It is squarely because of the way in which you have behaved. We've all lost some of the arguments we've gotten into here, and there comes a time at which to accept that consensus has not gone your way and move on. The fact that you haven't done that, and continue to argue this issue rather than moving on to others, gives me no confidence in lifting the topic ban. Drop the issue for a year or two, completely, edit productively in other areas and interact positively with other editors, and then we might consider modifying or lifting the ban. If you keep this up, you are perilously close to exhausting the community's patience entirely. Seraphimblade 21:27, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Once again, supporting what? All of the sanctions are already indef. The appeal has already been closed as unsuccessful. Someone may have thought that the sanctions have an expiration date, but they do not. I was first able to appeal the sanctions on July 6 at 11:43 UTC. I waited about another 10 days and only appealed because of an RM that did not really conflict with the topic ban but I wanted the topic ban to go away so that there would be no question. All this support nonsense and proposal three is nothing but gravedancing. Apteva (talk) 06:14, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
    • The current proposal calls for your topic ban to be appealable 6 months from when this discussion is closed. In addition, any violation of the topic ban will be met by escalating blocks. That's what this proposal changes, and it's not "gravedancing", because your own behavior brought about the proposal. If you want to have any chance of this proposal not being enacted, you must shut up and stop commenting here. Every comment you make is just another nail in your coffin. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:13, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
      • What they said PantherLeapord (talk) 09:41, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
        • Since when are blocks not sharply escalated? Since when is six months different from six months? All of the above is pompous rhetoric that changes nothing. What is this, Lord of the Flies? Just out of curiosity, in the last couple of days I made a list of articles that someone else can correct, because I can not. Gabriel Orozco, Prefaxis Menen, Cohors IV Delmatarum, Edward Snowden, Sérgio Leite, Rate of climb (last year it was estimated that 40% of articles misuse punctuation, but that is probably a lot closer to 4%, but out of 4 million that is still a big number of articles to correct). Multiply 3/day times six months and I will likely run across another 500 articles that I can not correct. Who benefits from that? No one. Just for giggles I will check back to see if anyone reading this thread or anyone else for that matter corrects those articles. Or are we solely here to see who we can sanction, and not to build an encyclopedia? Apteva (talk) 13:22, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

So, you are saying that if you made these edits, you would be violating your topic ban. Is that right? Well, let me explain something to you: Your topic ban prevents you from making such edits because you were far too willing to make a big deal out of inconsequential edits that 'do not actually improve the articles at all. That is rather the point of this whole thing. Nobody, outside of a very few MOS obsessive-compulsive types, gives a damn about the distinction between a dash, a hyphen, an mdash, or whatever other obscure punctuation nitpicking it is you wish to engage in on these articles. So no, probably these non-problems that so horrify you will not be corrected becausre they are not actually important to 99.99% of our editors or readers. Your inability to accept or even comprehend this simple point is exactly why you are so restricted. We are all sick to death of your constant pathetic whining about it and so these additional restrictions, which you wrongly imagine do not change anything, are being proposed. Alternately, you could just pledge to shut the hell up about it until January 20, 2014 at a minimum, with the same conditions, i.e. blocks, should you violate your pledge. I don't honestly expect you to do that, I expect more nonsense, but I'd love it if you surprised us all by just accepting the consensus on these issues and moving on. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:56, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

B, you go too far in saying "Nobody, outside of a very few MOS obsessive-compulsive types, gives a damn about the distinction between a dash, a hyphen, an mdash, or whatever other obscure punctuation nitpicking it is you wish to engage in on these articles." Actually, quite a few wikipedians routinely work to make articles more consistent with the recommendations of the MOS, as it makes the encyclopedia more precise, readable, and professional looking. It's OK that you don't care. As for Apteva, the problem is not that he cares about or works on style, but that he has a history of tendentiously working against the recommendations of the MOS, and is generally unwilling to listen to others, understand, compromise, or tolerate opinions different from his own. It's not an MOS problem, but an Apteva problem. Anyone can fix hyphens in number ranges, or title case in headings; we won't miss his help; and if they don't get fixed any time soon, it's because it's not that big a deal. Dicklyon (talk) 17:10, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

The problem is that not 99.99% but certainly close to 98% could not care a hoot about correcting those six articles, or can even tell that there are errors in them, and quite frankly, I would write the MOS to say that if punctuation is used consistently in an article, it is not wrong no matter how it is used, provided it mirrors a reliable source, and should not be corrected just to correct it (and yes I wrote an essay that said exactly that, until it was f'd up by "correcting it"), but that is not what the MOS says, it says those six articles have errors and should be corrected. Why I am sanctioned is not because I want to or do not want to correct those six articles, but because I want Misplaced Pages to spell things the same way others do, and not using cockemamy ideas about how punctuation should be used in titles when no one other than 2% of the world uses those cockemamy rules. Get with it Misplaced Pages. Spell things the way the rest of the world does or forever make us look like pompous idiots. Follow policies when choosing titles, not guidelines. It is not rocket science, but plain old common sense. Go visit the Reno-Tahoe Open and guess what punctuation they use? Not the punctuation our article uses. Read about it in any reliable source and what punctuation do they use? Not the punctuation we use. Why is that? Are we just that stupid, that we do not know how to use punctuation properly? And I am being sanctioned for that???? What has the world come to? I have absolutely no problem with saying absolutely nothing about the subject between now and January, as is already required by the sanctions currently imposed. It is not that sanction that is hurting Misplaced Pages as much as the sanction on one account. Probably 98% of the world is not going to know or care that we are misspelling Reno-Tahoe Open, which is why a moratorium was proposed for 2013 on discussing or making such changes, which is perfectly acceptable to me, but everyone does care if factual errors occur in important articles, like saying the moon is made of blue cheese (okay that one someone else would probably notice and fix, and that one even I could fix). Apteva (talk) 18:27, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm not aware the our MOS calls anything an "error", or says things "need to be fixed". It provides guidance for moving articles toward a consistent preferred style, not judgements about the styles that others choose. And aren't you violating your sanctions again by using this venue to argue for treating the dash/hyphen distinction as a spelling error? Or did that one expire before you took up this nutty campaign again? Dicklyon (talk) 20:02, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

The MOS is not an essay, which can be ignored at will, but is a guideline, something that all editors should attempt to follow. As a guideline, it will always have exceptions, and those do not need to be nor can they be listed. Some of it though, gives very bad advice, and apparently got that way simply by topic banning half a dozen editors who disagreed with the rubbish that others wanted to include. Apteva (talk) 13:38, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, the MOS would be perfect if only we let you, the most important person on this entire project, wrongly accused and topic banned, to remount your white steed and charge once more back into battle to slay the evil hyphen-breathing dragon... You really are a lost cause. See you at the inevitable future discussion of banning you entirely... Beeblebrox (talk) 16:00, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Government of Gibraltar decides which articles should be written and when

Most of you are probably aware of the Gibraltarpedia situation (mainly from September 2012). Many assurances were given that no promotion was involved, and that it is just a group of interested editors trying to increase our coverage of notable subjects in and around Gibraltar without any further reasons or motives.

When looking at Template:Did you know nominations/Devil's Gap Footpath, I noticed that besides some other problems, discussed at that nomination page and at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Devil's Gap Footpath, there was something more serious going on. In short:

• In March and April 2013, the footpath is refurbished by the Government of Gibraltar
• Information panels are placed carrying QRcodes as a link to Misplaced Pages, even though no article exists on the footpath
• 7 July 2013, 23.02: Tommy Finlayson, a government employee of Gibraltar (whose Misplaced Pages article is co-written by Gibmetal77) adds five files concerning the path to Commons, e.g. this one with the QRcodes in question
• 18 minutes later; Gibmetal77 starts creating the article here
• On 11 July, he nominates it for DYK, where it gets approved by Prioryman with ao the comment "I don't think there is any credible COI or promotional concern about this article".
• Because another reviewer expressed concerns about the article, Prioryman raised it at WT:DYK, which I noticed and reacted on. While he had no problems with my participation in a previous GobraltarPedia DYK review (Template:Did you know nominations/Fortifications of Gibraltar), he now reacts quite differently at WT:DYK#Third Fourth opinion requested: "given your history of relentless opposition to Gibraltar-related DYKs – which comes through in your comments on the review – I don't think you're the best person to review this nomination." (which is rather ironic coming from Prioryman: apparently he is neutral enough to review Gibraltarpedia-articles positively, but I'm only welcome when I approve a nomination, not when I reject one).
• When I raised my concerns about the timeline given above, and the apparent issue that it is the Government of Gibraltar (or the Board of Tourism) which decides which roads and footpaths of Gibraltar should get articles, at the AfD, Prioryman decided that instead of addressing the issue, the more prodictive solution would be to use personal attacks: "How about you stop lying, Fram?".

Can some people take a look at both the timeline and possible COI and promotion issues, and the personal attacks please? Fram (talk) 08:50, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

• AFD in question. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:04, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Thanks, but it was included in the third sentence of my statement (the one starting with "when looking at"). Fram (talk) 09:13, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
    • Oh, I missed that. Strucken. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:17, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

I've found this discussion because I'm currently watchlisting Prioryman's talk page because of matters unrelated to this discussion. I'm unaware of the previous discussions involving Gibraltar. On that basis:

• You make a reasonable case that Gibmetal77 has been acting in concert with whoever is responsible for this footpath to create the article. It's not immediately clear to me, however, why you think that this might be in violation of WP:COI or other conduct rules, or why it warrants a discussion among administrators here.
• The incivility by Prioryman is problematic, but regretfully nothing unusual by Misplaced Pages's current standards. As an isolated incident it is probably not actionable under current practices.
• I'm puzzled that articles about obscure footpaths can generate such controversy, and recommend all involved from withdrawing from what seems at first glance to be a storm in a teacup, or a rather unhelpful continuation of old grudges on both parts.
• Administrative action related to Gibraltar topics can be requested at WP:AE, per WP:AC/DS.  Sandstein  10:51, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
  • wrt your first point; It seems to me that when we have a project that is set up in conjunction with a city's board of tourism to promote that city, and when that city then creates wikilinked QR codes on certain topics that don't even have a Misplaced Pages article yet (and may not warrant one), and when there are some editors here who are part of that project and are willing to create the requested articles, that COI and the misuse of Misplaced Pages for promotional goals (whether effective or not) are quite clear. This is a conduct issue, and a continuation (degradation?) of an ongoing issue. It is unclear where I hsould have posted this, none of the village pumps seems really qualified. I was not aware that we have Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gibraltar and its discretionary sanctions; while I'm not the right person to take any administrative action (like warning other users about these sanctions), it is good to know that it exists and I may take this up there. Fram (talk) 11:35, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

The entire premise of this thread is a lie - the government of Gibraltar is not telling anyone what articles to write, nor is anyone else. One of the QR codes on the information panels is to my Tunnels of Gibraltar article, which was in preparation at the time the panels were printed. Nobody asked me to write the article - I wrote it as a spin-off of another article and let people know about it, as I wanted some feedback on it. The local heritage and conservation groups responsible for the panels evidently felt it was worth a QRcode. The photographer is a local who has nothing to do with the tourist board, and obviously Gibmetal77 is not a government employee. So the basic premise of this entire thread is wholly false and is yet another sad example of the assumed bad faith and conspiracy theorising that Fram has been perpetrating for the last year. It's bullshit and bunkum, and it should stop now - it's the exact opposite of how a Wikipedian should behave. Prioryman (talk) 13:13, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

This section is not about Tunnels of Gibraltar, but about Devil's Gap Footpath. I have not made any comments about your article or why it was written. Your comments and conclusion are thus not relevant. Whether Finlayson has anything to do with the tourist board or not is not clear, his brother Clive Finlayson used to be Managing Director of the Gibraltar Tourism Agency though. And the reason to renovate the footpath was "to turn the footpath to a nice tourist attraction." This is also the opinion of the government of Gibraltar, the renovation was one of the "improvements to the visitor attractions" This, coupled with the reason Gibraltarpedia was supported by Gibraltar and the timing of this article, are at least sufficient to raise some eyebrows. Fram (talk) 13:42, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Devil's Gap Footpath is one of a group of four articles that are QRcoded on the information panels (Tunnels of Gibraltar being another). The footpath is in a nature reserve on government-owned land (which I gather most of Gibraltar is) and the panels were, as I understand it, produced by two local non-governmental groups. Your comments clearly indicate that you are relying on nothing more than unverified suspicion. Because the brother of a person of the same name as the photographer (but not the same person!) used to be employed by the tourist board it doesn't mean that the panels have anything to do with the tourist board - that's little more than suspicion by association (can't even call it guilt by association!). Nor, obviously, does it mean that anyone in government "decided" that this article should be written, which is the whole utterly false basis of this thread. Let me put it simply: that claim is an unmitigated lie and you are being disruptive by propagating it. Prioryman (talk) 14:04, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

WP:NPA. Any alternative and believable explanation for the timeline of this? Do they randomly put up QRcodes for non-existent articles, or is there some interaction with editors here as to what articles will be created? On what basis is the choice then made? What happens when an article with a QRcode gets deleted? How does the collaboration between Gibraltar's official organisations and Gibraltarpedia editors go? Who has paid for these panels? I see a lot of handwaving and accusations from your part, but no actual explanations of what happened. Fram (talk) 14:24, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Fram, you are approaching this from a conspiracy theory mindset of having a pre-determined conclusion and working backwards from that to cherry-pick any datapoints that you - wrongly - think support your theory. I'm not Gibmetal77 (who's travelling, so can't respond here) so I can't speak for him but my own understanding is that he suggested to the Gibraltar Heritage Trust, a local charity - not the Gibraltar government - that they should add QR codes to the panels they were printing up. The articles linked from the QR codes were Devil's Gap Battery (started by User:Toromedia on 22 September 2012), Devil's Gap Road (Dr. Blofeld, 13 May 2013), Tunnels of Gibraltar (started by myself on 7 June in my user space) and Devil's Gap Footpath (started by Gibmetal77 on 8 July). The panels were printed some time in mid-June, I think. I had already told Gibmetal77 some time previously that I intended to cover the tunnels as a spinoff from my earlier Fortifications of Gibraltar article - needless to say nobody told me to write it. So in other words, the addition of the QR codes to the panels was done at the suggestion of a Wikipedian. Furthermore, three of the four linked articles, by four different editors, had already been started up to 9 months previously, by four different editors. Your claim that User:Toromedia is Tommy Finlayson is also false (it's a different person of the same name). So your claim that "the Government of Gibraltar decides which articles should be written and when" is plainly completely false because the Gibraltar government had nothing whatsoever to do with the articles. You never had any factual basis to suggest that they did and your assumptions are completely incorrect. Prioryman (talk) 18:47, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

I really don't care why you or anyone else wrote any of those other articles. Promising to write articles on non notable subjects so that panels with QR codes for them can be created beforehand is a not much better scenario (and leads to comments in the AFD like "have a redirect so the QRpedia code remains useful"...). It remains clear that you as a a group work together with the government and affiliated organisations to create articles promoting non notable tourist "attractions" and try your hardest to get them on the front page, reviewing and approving each other's work without much concern for basic policies and guidelines, and abusing editors who disagree with these practices. Fram (talk) 07:15, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Wrong again. I had no involvement in creating the article, nor was I asked to review it - I simply spotted it and reviewed it as the QPQ needed for one of my own nominations. When will you apologise for getting the facts so cataclysmically wrong? Or even acknowledge that your claims were wrong? I'm getting the feeling you don't actually care about factual accuracy. Prioryman (talk) 07:42, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

"I had no involvement in creating the article" Where did I say you had? And you don't need to be asked to review and approve Gibraltarpedia articles, it comes naturally to you, never mind DYK rules and Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines. I see no reason to apologise for anything here. That the Tommy Finlayson, a COI and copyright violating editor who also edited the Tommy Finlayson article, turns out to probably be another Tommy Finlayson from the same city with the same interests, is hardly "cataclysmically wrong". You haven't shown any other error, you made claims which can't be verified and which are hard to reconcile with the known facts. Not the first time of course. You should stay far away from any Gibraltarpedia articles on DYK if you want to keep any credibility and semblance of neutrality. Fram (talk) 08:18, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm not particularly inclined to continue this discussion, as it's obvious that you're simply making things up rather than relying on facts. There's no point discussing matters of fact with someone who prefers to invent their own facts rather than respecting reality. Prioryman (talk) 16:41, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

• Those are some very not notable people by Misplaced Pages's standards, those Finlaysons. Nice of us to give them an outlet for their resumes. Clive Finlayson doesn't have a single reliable secondary source, unless it's that one single page from this book. Note how all his publications are nicely linked, and how we make him "an authority on Neanderthals" based on this website--I'm puzzled that anyone ever accepted that as a reliable source for a BLP in an encyclopedia. Drmies (talk) 17:23, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
• Those blue links were to Amazon. They're gone now. Apparently the entire family, including Clive Finlayson's wife, is notable by our standards. Drmies (talk) 17:32, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages editors aren't always the best at establishing notability when writing an article. Clive Finlayson is most definitely notable, though his article does not do a good job of reflecting this fact. I am not so sure the others are notable, though.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 17:47, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

• I suppose the Beeb wouldn't have asked him to write something if he weren't at least marginally notable. The surprise is that this came through the DYK Quality Control Filter, which is otherwise just lighting up with false positives. Drmies (talk) 18:02, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

• Looking at a normal Google search, Google News search and Google Books search, I'm not seeing anything even remotely passing WP:GNG for either of the Finlayson brothers. Accordingly I've prodded both. — Scott • talk 18:27, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

• I can only guess that you don't know how to use Google, since there are plenty of returns, especially for Clive. I've unprodded them since they're both clearly notable. JSTOR alone would make any AfD a foregone conclusion, so don't even bother with that. Prioryman (talk) 18:51, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

• Have you even read WP:GNG at all? — Scott • talk 21:09, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

• Yes, obviously. And I know perfectly well that prodding the biographies of internationally noted, widely cited, decorated experts in their respective fields is a pretty silly thing to do when GNG is borne in mind. Prioryman (talk) 21:16, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

• Clive is probably just about notable. His brother, borderline. His wife, though - not in the slightest. Black Kite (talk) 21:20, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

• I am plenty familiar with our notability guidelines and it seems clear the younger Finlayson is quite notable. As I said, I can not speak for the elder Finlayson or the younger Finlayson's wife. The latter two you can address as you wish, but it would not be correct to claim that Clive Finlayson is non-notable. His bio could do with some re-tooling to move away from primary sources and make better use of the abundance of secondary sources out there, but that does not warrant deletion.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 21:21, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

• You know, the really stupid thing about this particular part of the discussion is that comes out of Fram's assertion that User:Toromedia, the contributor of the photos on Devil's Gap Footpath, is Tommy Finlayson. He's not - he's a different individual of the same name. I don't think any of the Finlaysons being talked about here have ever edited on Misplaced Pages, at least to my knowledge. Prioryman (talk) 21:30, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

The interresting thing is, that a minimum bit of research will show the distinction between the two Tommies. :-) Agathoclea (talk) 19:31, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

The bottom line here is, whatever the genesis of the article, there is no way that it is appropriate for Prioryman to be reviewing Gibraltar-related DYKs. Let someone who isn't closely assosciated with the Gibraltarpedia project do it next time. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:09, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

You may not be aware, but the current restrictions specifically allow for one of the two reviewers to be Gibraltarpedia-related. As the other reviewer was not, that condition was met. I have previously rejected and pulled Gibraltar-related nominations for not meeting standards, so I can hardly be accused of rubber-stamping. On the other hand I think it would be a very good idea for Fram to avoid any further involvement with these DYKs as the litany of false claims that he's posted above makes it very clear that his bias is so strong that he's incapable of making fact-based judgments on this issue. Prioryman (talk) 05:31, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

User talk:Tumandokkangcabatuan unblock request

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This user has a request for unblock that has been waiting for almost a day and a half. Can an admin review please. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 15:44, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

I believe admins have been looking at this request but the user didn't give a satisfactory answer to Ed's response, "You'll need to persuade the next admin reviewer that your block is no longer necessary. A good beginning would be to apologize for revert warring, and promise not to keep reverting in the future when it is clear that people don't agree with you."

If I reviewed that I would decline on that basis. With only a few hours on the block remaining, it won't make much difference.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 19:52, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

As someone who has been blocked I can categorically say that having a block removed even five minutes early can under some circumstances make a huge difference. Apteva (talk) 20:38, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

FACTUAL evidence should be used not PERSONALIZED translation

Several subjective users have attempted to manipulate the article on the "Shooting of Trayvon Martin" to suit personal ideologies. Misplaced Pages's policies serve to maintain neutrality and OBJECTIVITY rather than personal "prose". Credible sources should be used as references , such as the New York Times, rather than individual leaving "notes" .. What authority do they have to make such authoritative "notes"? Users like Arzel and Froglich violate the rule of objectivity and follow "personal dissertation" . Misplaced Pages is for objectivity not a BLOG for personal verdict. Cmo910 (talk) 16:47, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

• Yes. This is best taken up on the article's talk page--with specifics, rather than with generalized statements. Drmies (talk) 17:10, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
• Or WP:BLPN Apteva (talk) 20:41, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Wikipediocracy and outing

The bottom line is that no admin is going to "do" anything about this, and neither is arbcom. These issues were in front of them just last week and they rejected the case. Whether the person who closed this was involved or not will not change that result. Sorry folks, but nothing is going to come of this. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:04, 17 July 2013 (UTC) This isn't an appropriate place to discuss privacy issues - the Arbitration Committee is the appropriate body to deal with this, as Sandstein rightly states. Prioryman (talk) 07:30, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Closed to avoid further Streisand Effect and privacy violations - see hatting note above. Prioryman (talk) 07:35, 17 July 2013 (UTC) The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Wikipediocracy, amongst its other issues, has now become a platform for repeated massive breaches of WP:OUTING. When identified WP editors (or to be fair, Wikipediocracy editors claiming to be that Misplaced Pages editor) post articles deliberately attacking other WP editors then things have gone too far. We would (rightly!) never permit these sorts of outright attack within the WMF space. I believe that such attacks off-wiki are incompatible with continuing to edit at WP, much as per WP:NLT. Thoughts? Andy Dingley (talk) 00:34, 17 July 2013 (UTC) Some editors have clearly identified themselves, under usernames equivalent to those on Misplaced Pages but on other sites. Why should that constitute outing? And besides, you're using a white supremacist editor as an example for your claim of "massive outing"? Are you serious? By "outing" such a character I think that Wikipediocracy is doing a public service more than anything else. Wer900 • talk 00:37, 17 July 2013 (UTC) My reading of WP:OUTING and WP:NPA has so far failed to locate the section that says, "Unless they deserve it, then it's OK". WP has problems and there's certainly scope for outside channels that discuss this. However Wikipediocracy has got so far out of hand that it's now even worse than the sins it complains of. Andy Dingley (talk) 00:48, 17 July 2013 (UTC) I think this doxing is getting out of hand. They've been doing it for almost two years now, but this is just getting really bad, really fast. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:52, 17 July 2013 (UTC) Given that Misplaced Pages has no control over external websites, and given that (as Andy Dingley points out) we can't even be sure that someone posting on Wikipediocracy is who they claim to be, there seems to me to be precisely f***-all that can be done about it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:56, 17 July 2013 (UTC) I concur, but also note that providing links to off wiki outing is not appropriate, and I recommend deleting the above example links before this section is archived. I recognize that it is pretty hard to talk about something without explaining what one is talking about with a link. Apteva (talk) 01:18, 17 July 2013 (UTC) We have a pretty good idea of which not-yet-banned editors are promoting this pro-Scientology material on Misplaced Pages. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 01:00, 17 July 2013 (UTC) Um, I thought this was about Wikipediocracy, not Scientology? I very much doubt that even the most optimistic of admins would expect to exert any control over the latter... AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:07, 17 July 2013 (UTC) So the difference is what? The interests have been declared. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 01:14, 17 July 2013 (UTC) There is no credible claim that those identifying themselves on Wikipediocracy are not who they claim to be. Andy Dingley (talk) 01:03, 17 July 2013 (UTC) Mine may be a minority opinion, and I haven't visited Wikipediocracy and don't think that I want to do so. However, I think that, unlike Encyclopedia Dramatica, Wikipediocracy is not meant well and is not meant to be humorous, but is either malicious, or, at best, has only the excuse of middle-school humor. My own opinion is that anyone posting a link to Wikipediocracy that refers to a specific Wikipedian should be blocked, and should then explain that he wasn't outing anyone. I told you it was a minority opinion. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:09, 17 July 2013 (UTC) Can we stop with the persistent arguments over Wikipediocracy? All that's happening is (1) a Streisand effect and (2) annoyance to those who of us who really don't care. I'm tempted to close this as a "wrong venue" with instructions to complain to Wikipediocracy, because we have no more control over them or their participants than we do over the New Zealand Herald and its writers. Nyttend (talk) 01:12, 17 July 2013 (UTC) We have just the same issue with WP:NLT: WP's response to which is that such off-wiki actions are incompatible with continuing to edit here. The same approach could be applied to Wikipediocracy. Andy Dingley (talk) 01:15, 17 July 2013 (UTC) If you are proposing a policy change, this isn't the place to do it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:21, 17 July 2013 (UTC) Robert's comment is exactly like the sort of nonsense one sees on the letters page of the Daily Mail. (I'm guessing, I don't actually read that newspaper and don't think that I want to do so.) -- Hillbillyholiday 02:18, 17 July 2013 (UTC) Andy left me a message alerting me of this discussion, so I assume it has to do with my most recent blog post on Wikipediocracy. If it helps, I can confirm that I wrote that blog post. I can also confirm that it contains the real life name of a long-term WP user and exposes them as a self-declared member of the Ku Klux Klan. I sent ArbCom a message about this yesterday to let them know it might come up on-wiki. ANy questions? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 01:37, 17 July 2013 (UTC) Yes: How on Earth aren't you banned yet? — PinkAmpers& 02:05, 17 July 2013 (UTC) For what? Carrite (talk) 02:10, 17 July 2013 (UTC) Posting another editor's personal information is harassment, unless that person voluntarily had posted his or her own information, or links to such information, on Misplaced Pages. ~ WP:OUTING (emphasis added) — PinkAmpers& 02:15, 17 July 2013 (UTC) You will note, of course, if you read beyond the line that you quote and emphasize, that this is a policy with respect to so-called "outing" on Misplaced Pages. Off site is off site. Carrite (talk) 04:36, 17 July 2013 (UTC) Where has DC "outed" this character on WP? Should Andy Dingley be blocked for his opening statement which links to the off-site "outing"? (diff) -- Hillbillyholiday 02:26, 17 July 2013 (UTC) I can also confirm that it contains the real life name of a long-term WP user and exposes them as a self-declared member of the Ku Klux Klan. You can make the case that simply saying "it contains the real life name" isn't explicitly onwiki outing, but saying that someone's in the KKK most definitely is. — PinkAmpers& 02:40, 17 July 2013 (UTC) Oh, and, as to Andy... it's not block-worthy because it is at worst a good-faith mistake, and at best it's not even a violation of policy. (We have Misplaced Pages:Linking to external harassment, but that's a guideline, and it doesn't even categorically prohibit links like Andy's.) Personally, I think that the endless side discussions about what links you can include in the Wikipediocracy discussions ultimately just distract from the main issue. But, hey, if you wanna redact the links, I won't stop you. — PinkAmpers& 02:45, 17 July 2013 (UTC) ..saying that someone's in the KKK most definitely is. Sorry but no, it most definitely isn't. -- Hillbillyholiday 02:51, 17 July 2013 (UTC) Everybody needs to be sure they read this piece on Wikipediocracy before they offer opinions. I'd make it easy to do with a link, but I'm sure some cowboy would block me for it. All the same: read first, opine second. Carrite (talk) 02:10, 17 July 2013 (UTC) There is no consensus on what can be done in response to off-site outing, but it has been consistently proven that trying to deal with it on-site serves only to draw attention to the act of outing itself (Streisand effect, as has been mentioned earlier this thread). If the people who are made upset by the presence of outing on another site would simply avoid talking about it in public fora, then the only people to find the outing would be the those who knew where it was to begin with. This may sound like a really shitty answer to the problem (which again, editors can't agree is a problem), but it may be the best answer you'll ever get. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:17, 17 July 2013 (UTC) Well, Streisand Effect is precisely what DC is looking for when he engages in his habit of doxing. He's trolling, and we respond, unfortunately. Resolute 03:28, 17 July 2013 (UTC) Trolling? What a cretinous statement! Who started this thread? Heaven forbid that anyone would actually do anything useful round here. -- Hillbillyholiday 03:37, 17 July 2013 (UTC) Those anxious to rally to Mr. Buffalo's defense might be interested in THIS edit summary from July 14: "Undid revision 564203455 by Ryulong thanks snotty, and watch your edit summaries, asshole" or maybe THIS one: "Undid revision 564203729 by Ryulong you did put a summary "Check your damn talk page"-fuck off and stay fucked off." Nice. Carrite (talk) 04:31, 17 July 2013 (UTC) Come on Tim, this is not about Kintetsubuffalo and you know it. Outing (hypothetical, according maybe to our guidelines, whatever) is OK if it concerns a bad person? Drmies (talk) 05:35, 17 July 2013 (UTC) Everything seems to be verifiable. Without this kind of work, Qworty and Little green rosetta would still be editors in good standing. I think reprehensible off-wiki behaviour of any kind may be justification for banning from the project, but DC's behaviour in this case is far from reprehensible, and may be considered a public service. There is no harm in the world knowing that a teacher of children has those publicly-declared interests. I hadn't noticed that first blog post until you opened this thread - as I'm sure many hadn't - so thank you for publicising and directly linking to it on one of Misplaced Pages's most watched pages, Andy. But doing so breaches at least the spirit of our outing policy, so I've removed both links to the blog. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 06:10, 17 July 2013 (UTC) I think it's very sensible to redact the links, and I would appeal to others not to repost them, here or elsewhere. Enough damage has been done already - let's not add to it. Prioryman (talk) 06:44, 17 July 2013 (UTC) While the offsite article at issue does make for interesting reading, it roughly amounts to "User X has the real name of Y and is probably a really bad person, including a racist and a pedophile". This raises the question of what to do with the poster and the subject of the post. As to the latter, I am not aware that we have a policy allowing or requiring us to sanction users for reprehensible offwiki behavior. Intuitively I think that it should be grounds for sanctions because it reflects very badly on Misplaced Pages (I can see the tabloid headlines: "the encyclopedia written by pedophiles!"). But any attempt to implement this would clash violently with our current privacy rules as well as the adage of us being "an encyclopedia that everyone can edit". The best suggestion I can come up with at this juncture is to first develop consensus on whether we want to be able to sanction users for reprehensible offwiki behavior, and if yes, develop a rules-based, privacy-respecting process (probably by and via ArbCom) for implementing it. Then it can be applied to the instant case. As to the poster, our policy WP:OUTING#Off-wiki harassment is to my surprise very clear: "As is the case with on-wiki harassment, off-wiki harassment can be grounds for blocking, and in extreme cases, banning. Off-wiki privacy violations shall be dealt with particularly severely." In addition, "in extreme cases, such as legal threats, threats of violence, or outing, protective blocks may be employed without prior warnings." On that basis, it appears to me that there is clear consensus based in policy that offwiki outing is grounds for onwiki sanctions up to and including a ban. As to what to do now, the outing policy instructs: "In serious cases or where privacy and off-wiki aspects are an issue (e.g., where private personal information is a part of the issue, or on-wiki issues spread to email and 'real world' harassment, or similar), you can contact the Arbitration Committee or the volunteer response team by email, in confidence". Accordingly, I believe that the ball is in the allegedly outed user's court; they can submit the case to the Arbitration Committee for a private hearing. The Committee is in a position to consider any possible exculpatory arguments, such as the "public service" argument. I do not believe that an onwiki discussion is helpful in cases such as this where offwiki, private information is relevant; it only tends to compound the privacy issues. In the meantime, nobody should further complicate the problem by continuing to post potentially private material or links to such material onwiki.  Sandstein  06:54, 17 July 2013 (UTC) For God's sake Sandstein, the editor the post is about identified his interests and himself, by name, MULTIPLE TIMES on wiki. Andreas JN466 07:11, 17 July 2013 (UTC) If that is so, then we may not be facing a question of outing, but a question of whether the post otherwise constitutes harassment. In either case ArbCom is best qualified to handle this.  Sandstein  07:23, 17 July 2013 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Prioryman and Sandstein are the last persons who should be closing this, particularly since Sandstein just admitted that the Arbcom request was flawed. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:25, 17 July 2013 (UTC) Prioryman isn't even an administrator... I guess NAC flies at AN, learn something new every day... Carrite (talk) 22:23, 17 July 2013 (UTC) Yes, I think considering the history with Wikipediocracy, Prioryman is WP:INVOLVED when it comes to matters concerning wikipediocracy (I'm not commenting on the merits of the case, I am merely noting a long running feud exists). NAC is actually fine at AN and ANI, but being involved isn't. IRWolfie- (talk) 22:33, 17 July 2013 (UTC) I'm am a little puzzled by this. We appear to have affirmative evidence that someone is a card carrying racist bigot, and probable possible paedophile. Framing the exposure of a Klan member as possible harassment is madness. Outing policy is meant to protect regular editors, not racists and paedophiles. IRWolfie- (talk) 22:33, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

• Note that I've now filed an arbitration request. — PinkAmpers& 03:02, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Babita Sharma

A user (Jimthing (talk · contribs)) is trying to add unsourced information in the page, that made the real person send an E-mail to info-en (that's why I'm here) the user is edit warring too. please take care of it ASAP, (As a sysop and crat in another project) I suggest protect the page and send the user a warning not to add unsourced or poorly sourced materials in WP:BLPs (request of real person exists in Ticket#2013071710007773) :)Ladsgroup 13:39, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I have just responded to a similar OTRS e-mail from the subject. I have warned Jimthing (talk · contribs) and also reported this to WP:BLPN.--ukexpat (talk) 15:13, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Might be better to delete it. As it stands, the citations do not support WP:GNG as both of them appear to be primary sources. One is her talent management agency and the other is an upcoming summit where she is a speaker.--v/r - TP 15:40, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Another admin issue

Request to community-ban User:Damorbel from all articles and talk pages on thermodynamics.

Damorbel (talk · contribs) has a personal fixation that temperature is the average kinetic energy of a molecule -- even if there's just one molecule; and that heat is a measure of the molecular kinetic energy of a substance, rather the standard textbook definition that heat can only consistently be defined as energy in the process of being transferred into or out of a system.

He has filled up archive after archive, in particular at Talk:Heat but also elsewhere, endlessly pushing these views despite a raft of editors attempts to straighten him out, in exactly the way that we're not supposed to do, per the Arbcom cases on Speed of Light and Monty Hall problem.

He's at it again now, at Talk:Heat, and it has gone past the point of being disruptive.

I raised this at WT:PHYSICS for general discussion in December 2012 (archive here), where there was general agreement that Damorbel's views were not well conceived, and his continued returning to them was not helpful.

At that time I held back from the ultimate step and bringing it here. But it's now started up again, on and on, just as before, and it's time to say: Enough is enough. This has gone on for too long, taken too much energy from too many people, and it needs to finish. Jheald (talk) 21:36, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Request and discussion advised to WT:PHYSICS, Talk:Heat and User talk:Damorbel. Jheald (talk) 21:51, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. The edit warring there is absurd, the article is a mess, and needs people who have a basic understanding of heat contributing, but not by edit warring. It is a technical subject which requires the assistance of someone who is an expert, and a topic ban is not warranted. Apteva (talk) 02:28, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Do you have an evidence that Damorbel is an expert? Besides an article needs assistance of an expert who can provide convincing references to carry across their opinion. Also, article needs an assistance of a person skilled in resolving NPOV issues for a subject, if there are scholarly disagreements on the subject. If the community considers a certain contributor disruptive, an "oppose" without finding the facts of the matter is not helpful. The real problem with this and surrounding articles, such as Temperature, is that the talk pages there are battles of wikipedian's views and opinions, rather than battles of external sources. Staszek Lem (talk) 03:10, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
    • The editor is using technical arguments to explain the issues, which would not be possible for someone with a high school awareness of the subject. My assessment of the article is that anyone with a good knowledge of the subject would agree that the current status of the article is that it is far from GA status. I did not see that the issues involved scholarly disagreements, which would be presented with references. The article lays out what heat was defined as when Maxwell wrote about it, which is fine, but I defy anyone to try to understand the largely unreferenced section Heat#Usage of words. The editor clearly needs to back off from trying to get everything they want inserted into the article, but not through the mechanism of a topic ban. I thoroughly agree that no matter how much of an expert someone is on a subject, they have to support their proposed edits with refs, and as many people have pointed out, anyone who is really an expert on a subject can readily find those refs (but they might be from a technical journal that is not widely available). Apteva (talk) 03:53, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
      • Damorbel is pretty clearly far from an expert. See my explanation of where he went wrong back in 2010. But he's too committed to his viewpoint to listen. Dicklyon (talk) 04:08, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
        • That is why we require RS's, and WP:V, but the editor in question has clearly studied thermodynamics, qualifying them as an expert in the subject. Do experts ever disagree? Absolutely, and we use RS's to document those differing points of view. Are they an expert at the post Doc level? Or at the Nobel prize level? That is not important. As far as the general public is concerned, anyone who has taken (and passed) even one thermodynamics course qualifies as an expert on heat and temperature. Apteva (talk) 05:03, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
          • He does not cite valid references (makes vague allusions to Einstein and early 20th C. scholarship), he continually pushes WP:FRINGE POV, attempts to justify it with being WP:RIGHT and posing logical paradoxes that don't even fit. If Al himself were to show up here pushing silliness without the cites to support it, he'd be rightfully ignored. "Expertise" is only helpful if the "expert" conforms to community behavioral standards, which Damorbel does not.--R.S. Peale (talk) 19:16, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

• Diffs please - After a quick review of contribs, article and user Talk pages and the thread at WP:PHYSICS there is definitely something here that probably needs a remedy but diffs are needed to lay it out clearly. Zad68 03:38, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

• Comment/Neutral Support. I think Damorbel should look at thermal energy and the relationship between heat and thermal energy discussed here. I am not a good expert in this, but I do not see serious problems with current version. Damorbel should take a deep breath and edit something else or propose improvements that do not cause objections by others. My very best wishes (talk) 04:30, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

• Now Damorbel has added yet another round of edit war undoing of Heat: Revision as of (not utc), 19 July 2013 Damorbel (talk | contribs)(Undid revision 564795561 by Chjoaygame (talk) reason for change "he tried in a very kind and friendly way to be helpful" insufficient argument + personal). Now he has been warring based on a now-irrelevant disagreement about whether a particular post (and the single undo that I've done to him to date) was or wasn't helpful vs patronizing/personal. Your suggestion to look at Thermal_energy#Differentiation_from_heat is similar to dozens of suggestions that many of us have tried to make to him. Literally tens of thousands of words (probably hundreds of thousands if I look at more archives) have been written trying in vain to get him to stop, not just on Talk:Heat but on Talk:Thermal energy and probably others as well. I myself am guilty of writing several thousand of those words recently, engaging in these debates about the merits of his views themselves, in the hopes that he would stop re-instating them in the articles. I know I shouldn't have spent so much time on that, because the real point is that they are his own views, right or wrong, and are inconsistent with the definitions accepted in the physical sciences. Thus they represent OR, and WP is not the place to introduce them to the scientific community and argue their merits. I'm not sure why it matters whether he's studied thermodynamics -- he still can't singlehandedly decide that his own views and definitions trump those of the well-established consensus on these terms in the thermodynamic and physical science communities. At some point it has to stop being all of our jobs to convince him that he should stop removing the mainstream view from the articles and argue his case to the scientific community itself, not here. DavRosen (talk) 17:43, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree that many changes by Damorbel, such as this, are not improvements. He could make his point by making only minor changes in the current text. My very best wishes (talk) 13:21, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

After looking at additional examples below (such as this), it seems that Darmobel utterly failed to work in collaborative fashion. For example, he unilaterally (and without edit summary) removed a large paragraph with a perfectly reasonable historical description and insisted on the removal rather than gradual improvement of the text. My very best wishes (talk) 01:43, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

• Comment I'm leaning toward Support for a ban, but I'm not sure the editor fully appreciates the ramifications of this behavior. Would support severe warning, probation, which if they fail (as they probably would), leading toward a topic ban. He needs to understand that posting his POV without citation is harming Misplaced Pages. So far he appears to think its a personal dispute with a few WP:STICK wielding yahoos.--R.S. Peale (talk) 19:28, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
• This kind of situation is fed by the fact that editors with a science background often cannot resist engaging in endless discussions over the underlying science. Glancing at Talk:Heat shows lots of WP:NOTFORUM violations—what is needed is firm closing of unproductive discussions. An editor who is on a mission to demonstrate a flaw in physics or an article on physics will always have the last word. It's the other editors who have to stop replying. Focus on the article, and whether any proposal is verifiable and due, and close discussions based on opinions. If that situation were followed for a couple of weeks, it would be a lot easier to demonstrate that a particular editor should be topic banned (IMHO that is already clear, but the community has infinite patience for unhelpful contributions). Johnuniq (talk) 00:07, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support per WP:COMPETENCE. I don't know quite what flavour of kookscience he's peddling, but it's crazy nonsense (a physics grad. writes). Nor does he show any sign of reigning it in. Andy Dingley (talk) 00:15, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Diff? Apteva (talk) 00:33, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support. The problem is not that the editor in question has his own views. The problem is that he edits in an aggressively violent and irrational way, and is unresponsive to reasonable comment. I think this is more or less what Jheald is referring to when he says that "it has gone past the point of being disruptive". As for "follow for a couple of weeks", we have been following it for years. The method of "stop replying" just doesn't work in this case.Chjoaygame (talk) 04:58, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Unfortunately everyone at heat and temperature has been violating expected WP:Talk page guidelines. Apteva (talk) 06:22, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support topic ban of Damorbel. I've reviewed the Heat talk page and I agree with the assessment and proposed solution. If someone wants a nutshell, read just the section Talk:Heat#Latest change to the article. Note that User:Cardamon has provided quotations from several textbooks there while Damorbel is simply talking out of his head and even peremptorily disagreeing with any textbook. And that does not seem to be an isolated incident per , which would be a BLP violation if these guys were not dead (he was trash-talking Lev Landau and Evgeny Lifshitz and a volume from their series Course of Theoretical Physics). Someone not using his real name (talk) 20:03, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Regardless of their scholarship or credential, their contributions are definitely welcome, but simply need to be channeled in a manner that they can be used. For example, if they disagree with every text book, there is no reason to assume that text books will not change to reflect that view. Science is a constantly changing field, and half of everything that everyone knows becomes obsolete in four years. That means that Misplaced Pages also needs to document those changes, to explain what the science of heat considered over the years. We have the same situation with any number of articles, with experts proposing changes, but not being able to articulate them in a manner that we can easily use them. The solution is definitely not to topic ban everyone who knows something about a subject. This is the most recent edit that the editor wanted to include in the heat article. The grammar is horrendous and the science questionable, but not a reason for asking for a topic ban. Apteva (talk) 20:21, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
    • There's no evidence that Damorbel knows much if anything about the subject. (I personally don't know anyone with a graduate in Physics who hasn't heard of Landau and Lifshitz.) On the other hand there's plenty of evidence Damorbel dismisses or trash talks sources that contradict his poorly informed, idiosyncratic views. That's why a topic ban is needed: to stop wasting the more informed editors' time. You don't seem to be a stranger to problematic conduct yourself, per section above on this noticeboard. Kindly stop acting as the devil's advocate in this. You have replied to almost everyone who supports the topic ban; you oppose it, we got that already. Someone not using his real name (talk) 20:34, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
    • Furthermore, Damorbel's aggressive (and pretty clueless) editing of these basic science articles seems to originate from another problematic preoccupation . Someone not using his real name (talk) 21:17, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
      • @Apteva, we are supposed to use textbooks as they are currently written. Not as they might possibly be written in the future if they happened to change in such a way that they supported the opinion of a specific editor of wikipedia who sound clueless about physics. Science might change over time, but there is no indication that it's going change in that specific direction..... --Enric Naval (talk) 22:50, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oh, this guy is still pushing his misconceptions of physics on wikipedia? I looked at a few of his edits a few months ago, he was misunderstanding heat radiation and other stuff. It seems that he hasn't changed his behaviour. Misplaced Pages is not a physics internet forum to endlessly push personal misinterpretations of science. I support this ban. --Enric Naval (talk) 22:37, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support topic banning Damorbel from topics related to heat, thermodynamics, greenhouse effect (already in effect, I think), global warming, etc. I think Someone not using his real name is right that the underlying problem is Damorbel's climate-denier POV, but I'm unclear on how that informs his edits on Heat. As for Apteva, he should just butt out of things that are this far over his head. Dicklyon (talk) 22:43, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Damorbel was/is trying to prove the CO2 doesn't cause global warming (or something like that) by arguing from first principles, well at least his interpretation thereof , presumably after he "fixes" Misplaced Pages by removing all text based on these annoying science textbooks! Someone not using his real name (talk) 01:54, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
  • And if you wander why he (thinks he) needs to redefine heat for his purpose, the answer is here. Someone not using his real name (talk) 05:17, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support banning Damorbel from articles on thermodynamics topics because of recent edit and banning Damorbel from associated talk pages due to wikilawyering attitudes. Can you believe I searched in contributions for a potential for improvement of Misplaced Pages? I did. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 23:16, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

• Apteva, it sounds like you're saying that wikipedia is a good place for someone (like Damorel) to put forward his own unpublished viewpoint which contradicts every authoritative source on the subject. Even if he's an expert in the subject who has come up with views that could eventually replace the current authoritative consensus, he needs to demonstrate that through peer-reviewed publication and a dialog with the mainstream authoritites within the field, not by continually trying to intercept the communication of the mainstream viewpoint via wikipedia and replacing it with his own. This is a particularly egregious case of trying to publish your own OR in wikipedia articles, not just as additional, notable viewpoints when they're not, but as a replacement for the other viewpoint.

Even if, some day, he can support his view with some citations of notable contemporary dissenting publications (and I haven't seen him cite any myself that really qualify as this), they need to be presented as such in the article. What Damorbel does instead is repeatedly simply edits the article to replace the mainstream views he opposes with his own, throughout the article, where ever they occur. (I haven't even seen him even relegate the mainstream views to a section where they can be stated as alternative viewpoints in any form, but even if he did, it still wouldn't be acceptable to bury them or to banish them from the lede.) Invariably, a discussion ensues, either before or after someone reverts his changes (and possibly after he flips them back yet again), and he doesn't manage to convince any other editors that his changes are valid, but nonetheless he re-inserts them again later, sometimes based merely on a real or perceived personal insult by another editor on the talk page, which he cites as a WP policy violation and thus feels invalidate viewpoints that oppose his and justifies his reinstatement of his changes. And so the edit wars continue.

I don't think there's any question about the fact that Damorbel has abused his ability to make unilateral changes to the articles by continually changing and re-changing the mainstream views back to his own, even while the consensus continues to oppose him. The only question in my mind is whether he can and should be allowed to continue to post to the Talk pages, so that if he ever manages to convince other editors that he his views have become notable and verifiable, another editor can make the correspnding changes to the article, but Damorbel can't continue to do so unilaterally an unlimited number of times as he has been doing.

As for the practice of debating the pros and cons of a given point of view with Damorel (rather than its verifiability and notability), the fact that many editors have been drawn into this same behavior does not itself give Damorel the right to continue to make his unilateral changes with complete disregard for everyone else. I've been one of those editors recently, and all I can say is that I keep thinking that one more paragraph will make him realize that he's wrong and then he'll drop the whole thing -- problem solved. So long as he's been allowed to keep making his changes, that's been the only other means to stop him.

DavRosen (talk) 23:06, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

What I am saying is contributions are always welcome. Nothing more, nothing less. It is not the contributions that are a problem, it is the manner in which they are made that is a problem. What we need to find is a way to allow the contributions without the problems. For example, we have a mentorship program that the editor could certainly benefit from. Apteva (talk) 23:36, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Apteva, I completely agree that "It is not the contributions that are a problem, it is the manner in which they are made that is a problem.". This proposed ban is entirely due to the manner in which Damorel has continued to "contribute", which is by edit-warring on the article itself, repeatedly removing the (mainstream) views and continually replacing them with his own unsourced/un-notable views, rather than by going to the talk page and actually building any consensus about verifiable and notable views. DavRosen (talk) 00:26, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

• Some more links to highly problematic behavior/approach to sourcing: Basically Damorbel deleted half the article because he says he doesn't trust textbooks. The only source he trusts is basically a paper from 1857 . What's incredibly amusing about this is that Damorbel claimed (in the previous diff) that he does trust Maxwell and Planck, but Damorbel still deleted text cited to both. I think we're simply dealing with a troll here. Someone not using his real name (talk) 01:10, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
• Also, he clearly lacks access to an academic library and deletes/objects to sources that are not free on the web . Someone not using his real name (talk) 01:14, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
• Another edit which points to trolling when coming from an editor that has been around for years. Someone not using his real name (talk) 01:28, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
• More deletion of material (in another article) sourced from Planck. I guess Damorbel's trust in Planck vanished in the meantime! Someone not using his real name (talk) 01:37, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Definitely not a troll. They have never created an article, and may never have read the MOS section on the lead of an article to know that we make the title bold to indicate what it is, not for emphasis. It sounds like they are only interested in working on views of heat in the 19th century, which is a component of the article, but is not the entire article. I wish them well, but my principle observation is that it simply is not advisable for Misplaced Pages to pick and choose from those who are interested in contributing, passing some and failing others. The correct model is to channel contributions in a manner that everyone is welcome and everyone can contribute. Apteva (talk) 01:42, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
    • He should build himself a time machine and edit Misplaced Pages from the 19th century then! His contributions will then be in line with science of the day. Or heck, he'll be considered the foremost genius of his time! Someone not using his real name (talk) 01:47, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
      • Yes, this is just another example of unilateral (without even edit summary) removal of sourced text that was clearly on the subject of the article over objections by others. This is a typical example of WP:DE. This is taking place through many article and over a long period of time. Therefore, the topic-ban seems reasonable. My very best wishes (talk) 01:57, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
    • @Apteva: Please stop encouraging badness. This noticeboard often sees a disruptive and clueless editor who might be chanelled to do something productive. But then someoone starts adding "let's be nice" commentary, and the problem editor regards that as encouragement to continue down their path, until they end up indefinitely blocked when the problem becomes sufficiently clear. The purpose of the community is to build an encyclopedia, not to ensure that anyone on the Internet can contribute regardless of the associated disruption. Johnuniq (talk) 01:59, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
      • No problem. Some stats. They have made 1,695 edits, 70% of them to article talk pages. They have edited 49 articles, making a total of 203 article edits. 137 were thermodynamics (or more, depending on which are included), but 47 were to heat, 37 to temperature, 9 to Planck's law, 7 to Wensleydale cheese, 6 to each of three thermodynamic related topics. 80 of their article edit summaries began with the words "undid revision". Just for comparison, I do a lot of vandal patrol, and 2 of my last 500 edits started with "undo good faith edit", and 11 with either "Undid revision" or "Reverted edits by".Apteva (talk) 03:32, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
        • Can you explicate on what you think these stats show? Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:43, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
          • I think they show very poor editing, and a huge amount of edit warring. Apteva (talk) 03:46, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
            • And being basically a WP:SPA , which would not be a problem in itself if his contributions were useful, but most are not. Someone not using his real name (talk) 03:48, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
              • Definitely an SPA, but only in the sense that there are only a small number of articles they are interested in editing, such as heat and temperature. Apteva (talk) 15:50, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support indefinite topic ban on heat/thermodynamics, very broadly construed. I had thought the issue was just enthusiasm-exceeding-ability at some articles regarding heat, but the problem is more widespread, as shown above by the diff from Incnis Mrsi at "23:16, 20 July 2013". That diff, and its associated discussions, shows that Damorbel is using Misplaced Pages to push an agenda to "correct" science. Johnuniq (talk) 04:29, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Or to include the facts of science that they were taught in school, and have learned. Science is a broad subject, and there is nothing wrong with having articles about each field and each point of view within each field. The problem with the heat article right now, is that it does not define the subject, and does not provide a clear view of the topic. It is written from the point of view of a grad student, and is not accessible to the general reading audience. In the last section, a muddled explanation is given that the article is not about what most people think of as heat but about Heat (physics). Early versions of the article used the topic sentence: "Heat (abbreviated Q, also called heat change) is the transfer of thermal energy between two bodies which are at different temperatures." (defining heat as heat change, and not as the garden variety of heat that everyone knows as heat, and which seems to be the type of heat that the editor in question wants to write about, which can go either in a separate article or in a separate section of this article) Feedback has not yet been activated for the article, but I do not think the responses would be very complimentary. At one point the article was redefined to be about heat as everyone else knows the word: "Heat is a form of energy associated with the motion of atoms, molecules and other particles which comprise matter." What we are dealing with is like five blind people describing different parts of an elephant. Apteva (talk) 13:21, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
• Finally, in one of the few occasions when Damorbel actually cited a source, it turns out he misrepresented it, as discussed at Talk:Temperature#This_edit; you can check the source in dispute here. Someone not using his real name (talk) 04:35, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support. I mean this in a purely descriptive way, rather than as an ad hominem: Damorbel is a clever, dedicated troll. Without going into whether he is right or wrong, he makes edits which many other editors disagree with. He then repeats his argument over and over, rarely engaging in productive discourse. When the other editors begin to drift away in frustration, begin to spit the hook, he becomes reasonable, agreeing with them here and there, playing out the line. He has a knowledge of the subject, and his agreements are insightful and can be very encouraging. Then, having re-engaged them, slowly returns to his original argument. The cycle begins again. For certain editors, this game can go on for weeks, months even. He has been playing this game for years. Having been hooked a few times myself, I now ignore every piece of bait that Damorbel offers on a talk page, revert only once those edits of his that I believe are nonsensical, and hope that other editors will step in and support my reversion when he offers an edit war by reverting me. If every editor behaved this way, I think the problem would be solved, but there are always new fish swimming into the pond unawares. Support. PAR (talk) 05:24, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
  • In his last edits he is resorting too lame excuses for removing textbooks. First he claims that they are too expensive (but they are not excesively expensive for this type of specialized material, and they are still accessible via academic libraries), and then he claims personal attacks in flimsy grounds . He is using troll tactics to replace the mainstream view with his personal unsourced version of science (which seems to be very incorrect). --Enric Naval (talk) 09:25, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
    • Wow. I had to check those (could it really be true?), and I'm afraid it is as described. The four edits are within the last week, at Heat. The edit summary for the first diff is "Undone! Refs. @$300.00 absurdly inaccessible. Please find something better!". The second diff shows the same section being deleted, with summary "The section was deleted because the main ref. is inaccessible, making the whole section obscure.". The third diff shows a different revert; the revert is justified with edit summary 'DavRosen writes:- " Pls. take course or read textbk)" Personal attack!'. The fourth diff is similar. Damorbel should be topic banned to prevent further disruption. Johnuniq (talk) 11:22, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support - Having looked at the evidence, a topic ban seems completely justified. Beyond My Ken (talk) 13:18, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support based on the diffs presented here. Whether troll, dunce, or something else, Damorbel is wasting an exorbitant amount of other editors' time with bad edits. Zueignung (talk) 16:05, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

• Apteva seems to be going in all directions -- imploring us not to block Damorbel but rather to trying to channel his contributions so that they're constructive, then citing statistics that he admits "show very poor editing, and a huge amount of edit warring" on the part of Damorbel, and now most recently he apparently argues that Damorbel is merely trying to include "what most people think of as heat" that they "were taught in school". While I agree that the article needs a lot of work, and could be made more accessible to a larger readership, and could include a better explanation of the colloquial (and perhaps primary/secondary school science class) usage of the term "heat" (with reliable sources stating how they do use it) and how and why the definition in the modern physical sciences differs from it, none of this is what Damorbel has tried to do. Damorbel is advocating a point of view about heat in the physical sciences, as evidenced by his technical arguments. He isn't simply trying to rewrite the article to be about the colloquial or grade-school view of the term "heat", and he certainly isn't trying to add such views, but rather to replace parts of the technical definition of heat with his own. DavRosen (talk) 16:29, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

CfD backlog

Can a few admins look at Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Working#Discussions awaiting closure? The backlog goes back to May 10! Vegaswikian (talk) 00:47, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Skype Controversies of a tribunal in biographical articles

Isn't adding an individual section for 2012 ICT Skype controversy' irrelevant in these articles?

• Delwar Hossain Sayeedi
• Ali Ahsan mohammad Mujahid
• Muhammad Kamaruzzaman

--রাহাত | ✉ 05:01, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Ban proposal for user Nachiketpatel2531

User:Nachiketpatel2531 is repeatedly vandalizing the article Controlled atmosphere by deleting the Misplaced Pages content and introducing non-constructive edits. These were reverted several times. I have now reverted the edits and have looked into all his/her contributions and they are all unproductive. The user has no personal page on Misplaced Pages but I have created one by putting the Template:AN-notice there to notify him/her. noychoH (talk) 12:14, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

NoychoH, it is true Nachiketpatel2531's edits are problematic but WP:AN isn't the right place to handle this. The first thing to do is to revert the small number of promotional edits - and that's been done already - and to give Nachiketpatel2531 a warning about promotional editing. I gave Nachiketpatel2531 a warning, let's see if the behavior changes. If after several warnings the problem continues, the next step will be to report the user at WP:AIV as a promotional account. Zad68 13:02, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) I see this problem from time to time at Portal:Contents. New users attempt to create an article about themselves by blanking an existing article and replacing it with their own content. Not vandalism per se, more of a WP:CIR#Editing beyond your means issue. --Auric talk 14:35, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

• I do not see a real subject for discussion. An account without a single useful edit for several weeks, engaged in WP:Spam and WP:Vandalism. Which solutions are reasonable but the obvious one? Incnis Mrsi (talk) 18:18, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Let's take five minutes and help close an AFD

OK folks, we have an AFD that was closed as Keep. It was a good Non-admin close by User:Mdann52, and I endorse it, and would have closed it the same way had I been brave enough to, etc etc. No questions about the close. But have a look at the afd - Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Achinger coat of arms. It's a mass nomination of, at the time, over 230 Polish coats of arms. Now that it's closed, there are 215-ish articles that need to be untagged and have the old afd notations placed on their talk pages. A reasonably accurate (and updated) list can be found at User:Snotbot/AfD report - if my fellow admins would each take 5 of these, we'd knock them out in no time. The editor who closed (and who really should be the one who does this sort of thing) is unable at the moment to access AWB or similar tools that might speed this up, otherwise I'd make him do it on principle. Thanks in advance! UltraExactZZ ~ Did 7:52 am, Today (UTC−5)

 Done shortly after this was posted. Mdann52 (talk) 14:23, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Why in the world would User:Mdann52 go and close another AFD that was most certainly not eligible for WP:NAC. They have already been advised to stop, IIRC - this is totally and obviously not within NAC reach (✉→BWilkins←✎) 16:10, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

@Bwilkins:Can you link to the discussion where this warning came? The only think I was able to find was User_talk:Mdann52/Archive_5#Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion.2FLynn_Parsons, of which issues were fixed. Mdann52 (talk) 17:10, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I dunno, maybe I read the consensus as being clearer than it was - but it's precisely the same close I would have made. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 02:34, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

urgent urgent URGENT!

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

What to do about this edit here!??? I just saw it and don't know what to do! Joke? maybe,... but if not this sounds serious! The Carabinieri can definitely help - call from anywhere 112 and they will pick the girl up and bring her to their nearest station, but I am at a loss here if just posting on her talk page that number will help! Advice please! thanks, noclador (talk) 15:14, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

 Done. Emailed emergency@wmf similar to WP:SUICIDE. DMacks (talk) 15:22, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

thank you for the quick response! noclador (talk) 15:23, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, a call from anywhere in Italy and the Carabinieri will respond. The IP address indicates whether it is in Italy. Anyway, the emergency was dealt with properly and has been redacted. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:00, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

AfD issues

I have two gripes, both concerning AfD:

1. Mathbot is saying there are no open deletion discussions more than seven days old, when there are actually a lot
2. There are things from Monday and Tuesday that haven't been closed yet

I posted notices to Mathbot and his operator last night, and neither the bot problem, nor the backlog, has been fixed pbp 15:23, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

• That is odd. Perhaps a note at WP:AFD/OLD that the logs should be manually checked until this is resolved? Beeblebrox (talk) 17:14, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

  Smth happened overnight (European time). Yesterday evening all open discussions were shown, and today in the morning they were not.--Ymblanter (talk) 17:23, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

  (Non-administrator comment) I'll go ahead and add a note to the page. WikiPuppies _bark 17:30, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

July 7 closed (was only one nomination left).--Ymblanter (talk) 08:11, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

• Probably the same problem as User_talk:Oleg_Alexandrov#MathBot_AfD_tool. Unfortunately, when things get changed, it almost always means that tools that depend on those pages being in a certain format cease to work. Black Kite (talk) 08:16, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Copyright problems in bad shape

There is a pretty massivegantic backlog at Misplaced Pages:Copyright problems (at least as far back as April). Wizardman has been clearing out a day of backlog every few days, but things are coming in about 5x as fast as he can clear it, so if anyone is interested in helping I'm sure he'd appreciate it. Should be pretty straightforward, instructions are at WP:CPAA. Prodego 01:33, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

I mean, any help would be welcome. Just cleaning up one article or even checking that the nomination has already been cleaned up would save some time for a few regulars there.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:12, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

second opinion on close requested.

Request a second opinion on the close of the following RFC as no consensus Talk:Gun_control#RFC

This is the second RFC on the topic http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Gun_control/Archive_3#RFC:_Section_on_Association_of_Gun_control_with_authoritarianism

(the current one created by myself, the other created by someone on the opposite argument)

Both RFCs threaded discussion dominated by mostly the same entrenched editors, but the new RFC was very widely advertised and had significant input from uninvolved editors. We are unlikely to get such a wide input again, and saying that entrenched editors have no consensus in their discussion - was the entire reason to make the RFC in the first place. Gaijin42 (talk) 02:18, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

You haven't yet discussed this with the closer. A little bit of effort on your part towards that end will both work towards resolving any issues that you have, and simultaneously give us something in particular to look at. Closures get reviewed on a specific basis - a particular problem with the closer's summary or understanding. Until there is actually an issue that you and the closer have discussed but not come to an agreement on, there really is nothing for anyone to look at. Come back after you've actually discussed the issues with User talk:SlimVirgin and figured out what you want reviewed. VanIsaac_{WS Vex} 03:15, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Badanagram and Toddst1

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Dear Wikipedians! I found the following facts:

1. Badanagram (talk · contribs) and Toddst1 (talk · contribs) had a long history of strained relationship. In July 15 yet another their clash occurred.
2. In July 16 Toddst1 indefblocked Badanagram with the substantiation “multiple instances of IP sockpuppetry”.
3. In the ensuing discussion the only “IP sock” named (and labelled by Toddst1 as a suspected sock) was 203.81.67.123 (talk · contribs) with one edit in articles and two posting at AN/I.
4. At Toddst1’s talk User:Tony1 pointed that the block lacks a substantiation and deviates in many aspects from the established practice. There was no substantial response (sarcasm not counted).
5. Me, User:Incnis Mrsi, pointed two times that a formal investigation was not started (that is a standard practive for any acc with noticeable positive contributions) and no IPs with WP:signs of sock puppetry were demonstrated. Again, there was no response.

Whereas Toddst1 now departed for a vacation, I ask the community to assess this situation. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 05:05, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

• I'm not sure if you realized this, but this is already at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Uninvolved review requested. It's probably best to close this here and instead comment at the ANI thread. Rgrds. --64.85.217.146 (talk) 05:27, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

  How had I to learn about this if Tony1 did not notify Toddst1 (although it is a procedural requirement) and used a non-descriptive heading? Incnis Mrsi (talk) 05:32, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Would somebody take a look here

At User talk:FrankSanello. I suggest the best thing is to revoke user's talk page access before he digs himself in any deeper. He's clearly very upset and so I don't consider his legal threat to take out a restraining order is anything but bad tempered posturing. But leaving him the option to vent on his talk page is wasting admin time (checking his unblock requests) and not calming the situation at all. Keri (talk) 16:52, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

I am still receiving emails from this user, using the "reply" button I presume. Mlpearc (powwow) 17:25, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

The username shares the same spelling as an author that we have an article about, and while contributions are welcome from everyone, the drama is not welcome. Apteva (talk) 18:37, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

They claim to be that person. Mlpearc (powwow) 18:41, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

At the risk of "spamming" him again, we should probably tell him that he can turn off email notifications. I'll do so. Huon (talk) 20:08, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

I have taken an WP:IAR approach here by blanking the editor's talk page, using a minor edit to avoid a notification to the editor, and by giving it indefinite full protection. This will prevent further notifications to the editor and will allow them to leave in peace. Let's move on now.--v/r - TP 22:45, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Definitely a good use of IAR. Thanks for resolving it, TParis. Nyttend (talk) 01:38, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Block proposal of Baboon43

Per the consensus at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Baboon43, I would like to propose an indefinite block of Baboon43 (talk · contribs · logs) as a preventative measure due to sustained combative and tendentious editing. This block could be successfully appealed based on the conditions outlined at the RFC/U.
I will start by voicing my support as the nominator.MezzoMezzo (talk) 06:08, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

this proposal was outlined solely because i didnt participate in the rfc..on the other hand these are nothing but ill will and bad faith on the part of the user MezzoMezzo to have me not criticize his edits or respond to his accusations on talk pages....he launched an rfc after a talk page discussion got heated, and i made some remarks which i had apologized to him later on. basically all he did was bring up my past violations and use them as an excuse to have me put on wiki trial. the so called "endorsers" are mostly people i have had conflicts with in the past which makes the whole thing utterly biased. Baboon43 (talk) 07:15, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

As a commenter who didn't lean either way, the very fact that you failed to engage the community on the issues raised in the RFC/U is troubling. If you felt that the endorsers were biased, all you had to do was discuss it in the RFC and this step wouldn't have been necessary. You were notified that an RFC had been raised by declined to engage. I even left a note on your page informing you that a proposal to bring an indef block or community ban to AN was being discussed and all you did was delete the notification. I don't particularly care about you but in the spirit of fairness decided that you deserved a chance to voice yourself when drastic measures were being proposed. An RFC is not a "trial", it's an open forum to bring editors together to hash out their differences informally. All you had to do was discuss with the other editors and an understanding could be reached. I made some comments on the talk and project page of the RFC, but they were entirely procedural and I stand on neither side, but I can only say that you brought this upon yourself by not engaging. Blackmane (talk) 09:47, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support indef as per the RfC/U which Baboon refused to participate in, and the comment here, which is highly inappropriate and downright false. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 07:26, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support indef as per the RfC/U's accepted solution, I had expected Baboon's participation, but in vain. Faizan 08:37, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support indef with the understanding that "indefinite != infinite". Of course the people who certified the RFC/U were people you had past negative encounters with - that's pretty much the rule with RFC/U's. The original intent of the RFC/U was to provide others with the opportunity to discuss and suggest your behaviour so that you could change to community norms. It gave you the opportunity to understand the concerns of others, explain your side, and allow you to politely question where you failed these norms. By refusing to participate, you personally forced the hand of the community as you showed you have no desire to conform to this community. You were also aware that the result of the RFC/U would be a recommendation for a block, yet you still thumbed your nose at the community. It's a little late to request "leniency" now ... you've had over a month to participate in a focus-group about you that was lenient. The overall concerns raised in the RFC/U are significant enough for an indef block. So, I recommend the block based on your behaviour, and your clearly-expressed unwillingness to change that behaviour. As such, the block is preventative (✉→BWilkins←✎) 11:15, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

my participation at the rfc is not mandatory & a little note on my talk page says i shouldnt comment if im opposed to the block..coincidently by the user who drafted the ridiculous proposal. Baboon43 (talk) 18:02, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

• Comment. Recommending sanctions is beyond the scope of an RFC/U, which exists solely to work with the user. If it fails, the extent of the recommendation that can be made is that other mediation or arbitration be pursued. No specific remedy can be recommended. Recommending sanctions is like deciding the outcome of a trial before hearing any of the evidence. Apteva (talk) 14:32, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

• The only RFC/Us I've ever seen that actually ended recommended sanctions... Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 14:41, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

• Inappropriately. A venue can be recommended for further arbitration or mediation, but not the outcome of that mediation or arbitration (mediation for content disputes, arbitration, contrary to the name, means behavioral issues). No one can come here and say "we decided at the RFC/U thus and such should be the sanctions". What the RFC/U can say is we are not getting a response from the editor, and will need to bring this up at thus and such place. It is up to that thus and such place to determine what to do, not the RFC/U. After it is being discussed elsewhere, and it does not matter how it was brought up there, the RFC/U is closed with the statement to the effect that it is being discussed there, and a link to the exact venue/case where dispute resolution is continuing is provided. Deciding the outcome first is putting the cart before the horse. Apteva (talk) 15:43, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

• Apteva, the overwhelming consensus of editors who got you blocked by that process probably don't agree that is was "inappropriately". Dicklyon (talk) 15:51, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
• Apteva, if you look at the RFC a proposal was raised to sanction Baboon43. This indeed would have been beyond the remit of an RFC. But if you read the actual text, there was no request to sanction Baboon43. It was an expression of intent that a proposal for sanctions be raised on WP:AN. This is entirely procedurally appropriate. The proposal may have been leading, per legal parlance, but any editor would have been free to propose alternatives. Perhaps you should raise an alternative rather than harp at others. Blackmane (talk) 17:51, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support indef - the user refused to participate in the RfC and continued the behavior outlined in the RfC after it was filed - showing no regard for the concerns that were being brought forth. That, combined with the attitude taken when approached regarding the RfC (i.e. "I have to decline because I have other things to do") shows he simply doesn't care. Dusti 15:25, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
  • That would indicate a wake up block, not an indef block. Apteva (talk) 15:43, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
    • Actually, no. It would indicate an indef block, with reasonings outlined by Bwilkins above. Dusti 15:58, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

      I think we are saying the same thing. Per above "indefinite != infinite". Apteva (talk) 17:06, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support indef - I've encountered him many times. He doesn't follow wikipedia protocols, always resort to edit-warring before a consensus is reached, doesn't work well with other editors, and overall very disruptive.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 16:41, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Arbitration motion regarding Syrian civil war articles

The Arbitration Committee has resolved by motion that:

In March 2013, an administrator notified the editors of Syrian civil war and several associated pages that the topic area fell under the scope of {{Arab-Israeli Arbitration Enforcement}}, which provides for a blanket one revert per editor per article per day restriction as well as discretionary sanctions. A request for clarification or amendment has now been filed raising the issue of whether the topic-area of the Syrian Civil War falls within the scope of the Arab-Israeli topic-area for purposes of arbitration enforcement.

The Arbitration Committee concludes that the topic of the Syrian Civil War does not fit within the category of Arab-Israeli disputes, although certain specific issues relating to that war would fall within that topic.

However, the administrator action extending discretionary sanctions and the 1RR limitation to Syrian Civil War was taken in good faith. Several editors have commented that the restrictions have been helpful to the editing environment and that they should remain in effect. No one has requested that the Arbitration Committee open a full case to consider the issue.

Accordingly, the existing sanctions and restrictions applied to Syrian Civil War and related articles will continue in effect for a period not to exceed 30 days. During that period, a discussion should be opened on the Administrators' Noticeboard (WP:AN) to determine whether there is consensus to continue the restrictions in effect as community-based restrictions, either as they currently exist or in a modified form. If a consensus is not reached during the community discussion, any editor may file a request for arbitration. In the interim, any notifications and sanctions are to be logged at Talk:Syrian civil war/Log.

For the Arbitration Committee, Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 08:54, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Discuss this

Njmap-0219.png

Can someone tell me the original source, author and license template of this file: File:Njmap-0219.png? Armbrust 10:06, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

The only information was "Map showing Fort Lee within Bergen County, NJ. Created by Charles O'Reilly from public-domain images at the State of New Jersey Web site. {{PD}}". It was uploaded by User:CharlieZeb on 17:07, 9 January 2005.--v/r - TP 11:00, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. Armbrust 11:03, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Is this the right place to make such requests? I've always made such requests here (when logged out or on my alternate, non-admin account), because I can't think of any better place, but we have so many boards for this and that and the other that I wonder if we might have something dedicated to looking at deleted pages. Nyttend (talk) 17:09, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Please check edits of User:Tu Real Socio

Please check edits of User:Tu Real Socio and discussion in Commons--Musamies (talk) 18:17, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

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